Pro-sex feminist - how to feel less threatened by porn?
August 11, 2005 11:13 PM Subscribe
I'm female, sex-positive, and a feminist. Help me deal with my residual issues about porn.
In abstract principle, I would consider myself pro-porn in the sense that I believe (as with sex) that anything that goes on between consenting adults is acceptible. But in actual practice, it's way more complicated for me.
I came of age (literally and politically) in the 80's when the anti-porn feminist model was still the dominant one - you know, porn is always exploitative/sexist/degrading, etc. Before that, when I was a kid, one of my 2 experiences with porn was finding it in the woods (just like that recent AskMe thread!), showing it to a friend, having the friend tattle, and getting into major (humiliating) trouble. The other experience was finding a couple of Playboys (yes, I know, very tame!) in my dad's closet around the time I found out he had a brief affair with a colleague.
I think in my mind these two incidents turned into the equation that not only did porn = bad, but also porn = cheating. So then in college all those negative feelings were just confirmed with the porn = exploitation brand of feminism I encountered.
For the most part in relationships, the question of porn never came up - I just assumed (naively) that as long as we were regularly having sex, my partners didn't look at it or only looked at it rarely. This changed when I lived for several years with someone who had a genuine problem with it - he viewed it for several hours a day, ran up huge bills for phone sex/pay-per-view/etc., apparently preferred it to intercourse (despite my high interest in actually having sex), etc. So that confirmed the sense of it being something that was detrimental to a relationship, even though on an abstract level I had rejected the "porn is morally bad and anti-woman" framework that I had been brought up with.
I'm now in a new(-ish) and wonderful relationship (including frequent, mind-blowing sex) with someone who is open about the fact the he views porn regularly (I don't know how "regular" that is -- I have resisted the impulse to go through his closet or check his browser cache, etc., because I refuse to be That Girlfriend Who Checks Up On Him). As I said, in principle I'm fine with its existence - frankly, i'm even curious about it myself. I just have a hard time shaking this gut feeling that if he's looking at porn, it means he wants something other than me. Logically, I totally understand that's not the case -- but emotionally? I still feel scared/insecure/threatened by it.
Men (and pro-porn women!), help me out here. Please note that I am NOT asking for ways to make him "give up" porn. I'm looking to understand its role in men's lives that cuts against this "me vs. them" feeling that I guess I'm locked into. And yes, I'd like (and expect eventually) to talk about this with my partner - I just know that this is my own baggage, and I'd like to hear from others first to help me approach it positively. Suggestions for feminist pro-porn resources (books, discussion boards, etc.) welcome too. Thanks - and sorry for the huge! hot! throbbing! post.
In abstract principle, I would consider myself pro-porn in the sense that I believe (as with sex) that anything that goes on between consenting adults is acceptible. But in actual practice, it's way more complicated for me.
I came of age (literally and politically) in the 80's when the anti-porn feminist model was still the dominant one - you know, porn is always exploitative/sexist/degrading, etc. Before that, when I was a kid, one of my 2 experiences with porn was finding it in the woods (just like that recent AskMe thread!), showing it to a friend, having the friend tattle, and getting into major (humiliating) trouble. The other experience was finding a couple of Playboys (yes, I know, very tame!) in my dad's closet around the time I found out he had a brief affair with a colleague.
I think in my mind these two incidents turned into the equation that not only did porn = bad, but also porn = cheating. So then in college all those negative feelings were just confirmed with the porn = exploitation brand of feminism I encountered.
For the most part in relationships, the question of porn never came up - I just assumed (naively) that as long as we were regularly having sex, my partners didn't look at it or only looked at it rarely. This changed when I lived for several years with someone who had a genuine problem with it - he viewed it for several hours a day, ran up huge bills for phone sex/pay-per-view/etc., apparently preferred it to intercourse (despite my high interest in actually having sex), etc. So that confirmed the sense of it being something that was detrimental to a relationship, even though on an abstract level I had rejected the "porn is morally bad and anti-woman" framework that I had been brought up with.
I'm now in a new(-ish) and wonderful relationship (including frequent, mind-blowing sex) with someone who is open about the fact the he views porn regularly (I don't know how "regular" that is -- I have resisted the impulse to go through his closet or check his browser cache, etc., because I refuse to be That Girlfriend Who Checks Up On Him). As I said, in principle I'm fine with its existence - frankly, i'm even curious about it myself. I just have a hard time shaking this gut feeling that if he's looking at porn, it means he wants something other than me. Logically, I totally understand that's not the case -- but emotionally? I still feel scared/insecure/threatened by it.
Men (and pro-porn women!), help me out here. Please note that I am NOT asking for ways to make him "give up" porn. I'm looking to understand its role in men's lives that cuts against this "me vs. them" feeling that I guess I'm locked into. And yes, I'd like (and expect eventually) to talk about this with my partner - I just know that this is my own baggage, and I'd like to hear from others first to help me approach it positively. Suggestions for feminist pro-porn resources (books, discussion boards, etc.) welcome too. Thanks - and sorry for the huge! hot! throbbing! post.
For some men, especially those who are "addicted" to it, it is used as a coping mechanism. I am not in a position to say for sure, but it is feasible your prior boyfriend used it as a crutch of some sort.
Me, I am pretty kinky. I admit it. There. I used to hide it from my past girlfriends which was a very, very bad idea until I said fuck it (zing) and came out of the closet. Now my relationships and my sex life is much better as a result. I feel that pornography has as much power to degrade women as it does to empower them; this is all decided in the mind of the person masturbating to it.
I notice that you are intelligent (the norm around here) and you also realise the emotional aspect of putting two and two together when you were younger, so to speak. I don't think your situation is all that abnormal, and your feelings of inadequacy compared to your bf jerking off to porn is unfounded; I mean, if you give a baby a pacifier does that mean it doesn't want its mothers milk?
posted by Dean Keaton at 11:27 PM on August 11, 2005
Me, I am pretty kinky. I admit it. There. I used to hide it from my past girlfriends which was a very, very bad idea until I said fuck it (zing) and came out of the closet. Now my relationships and my sex life is much better as a result. I feel that pornography has as much power to degrade women as it does to empower them; this is all decided in the mind of the person masturbating to it.
I notice that you are intelligent (the norm around here) and you also realise the emotional aspect of putting two and two together when you were younger, so to speak. I don't think your situation is all that abnormal, and your feelings of inadequacy compared to your bf jerking off to porn is unfounded; I mean, if you give a baby a pacifier does that mean it doesn't want its mothers milk?
posted by Dean Keaton at 11:27 PM on August 11, 2005
Having tortured myself (long! and hard!) about this, and having had exhaustive, even academic, debates about the subject with both past (and current) lovers and girlfriends, I hesitantly proffer the advice: don't worry about it. The sex is, as you describe it, mind-blowing. That should be enough of a tip-off in and of itself. Having said that, I can't make any truly astute observation, as I don't know the details of your current boy's interest in porn or his history as a partner to others. I offer this link (to a Dan Savage column) in the hope that it will further allay your genuine and (in many cases) well-founded fears/hesitation.
posted by Token Meme at 11:58 PM on August 11, 2005
posted by Token Meme at 11:58 PM on August 11, 2005
Talk to him about it, and consider making it part of your sex life too. Like Purple said, perhaps his porn interest is an indication of certain fantasies he had that he is uncomfortable sharing with you. Porn always has kind of a dirty aura around it, and I wouldn't be surprised if he feels slightly guilty about his habits. Bringing it into the open and checking it out for yourself, even if you find you aren't into it, may at least help you to understand his desires better.
That being said, porn is also an escape from the relationship. It may be that he doesn't want to feel tied down, and instead of carrying on a real affair he satisfies those desires though pornography. Instead of feeling compleletly dependant on your for his sexual satisfaction, he can say to himself that he doesn't really need you and therefore restore his masculinity. I am not saying this is entirely conscious thinking, but it could be going on under the surface. Whether or not this is a problem I realyl don't know.
posted by sophist at 11:58 PM on August 11, 2005
That being said, porn is also an escape from the relationship. It may be that he doesn't want to feel tied down, and instead of carrying on a real affair he satisfies those desires though pornography. Instead of feeling compleletly dependant on your for his sexual satisfaction, he can say to himself that he doesn't really need you and therefore restore his masculinity. I am not saying this is entirely conscious thinking, but it could be going on under the surface. Whether or not this is a problem I realyl don't know.
posted by sophist at 11:58 PM on August 11, 2005
I am a lady, and I jerk off to porn. When I jerk off to porn, it has nothing to do with my boyfriend, and lord knows I wouldn't choose any of the men in the videos over him(ow ow ow ow ow). It doesn't bother me that my boyfriend looks at porn(hell, we look at it together), because I know how I feel about it, and I know he feels the same way. Maybe you should start experimenting with porn on your own. That way, when you start thinking "Oh my goodness, he must want those women so much more than me," you can remember that you don't fall asleep longing for Peter North every night, he's just someone you look at to help you come faster, and that your boyfriend feels the exact same way about Taylor Rain.
Good Vibrations has an excellent selection of girl-friendly porn with detailed descriptions that could help you select a porn that you're comfortable with.
posted by Juliet Banana at 12:13 AM on August 12, 2005
Good Vibrations has an excellent selection of girl-friendly porn with detailed descriptions that could help you select a porn that you're comfortable with.
posted by Juliet Banana at 12:13 AM on August 12, 2005
I agree with Juliet. Personally, I actually look at more porn than my boyfriend. As someone who has worked in a porn store, currently works as a phone sex operator and designs adult website, I see (or talk about heh) a lot of nudity, erotica and plain old sex.
When it comes to porn, I really prefer a plot or atleast something nice to look at, so if you do decide to watch it together, I suggest anything by Michael Raven, or Ninn Works. Very beautiful "art core" type movies, or atleast something with a story line. There *is* good porn out there, you just have to look for it :)
posted by DecemberRaine at 12:37 AM on August 12, 2005
When it comes to porn, I really prefer a plot or atleast something nice to look at, so if you do decide to watch it together, I suggest anything by Michael Raven, or Ninn Works. Very beautiful "art core" type movies, or atleast something with a story line. There *is* good porn out there, you just have to look for it :)
posted by DecemberRaine at 12:37 AM on August 12, 2005
In my opinion porn, like nearly anything else, can be positive or negative. People with addictions -- whether they are addicted to drugs, alcohol or porn -- can always cross the line to abuse, but the problem is more with them (they have an illness) than the thing that they abuse (this includes hard drugs). I like sex. I like porn. I love my wife. I love having sex with my wife. None of these statements is mutually exclusive. Porn is a spectacle, it is a jerk-off fantasy, it is not real life, but it is part of my real life. It certainly does not make me confuse women I meet on the street with 30-man gangbang pornstars as some anti-porn advocates would have you believe. The fact that some insane porn fetishes may turn me on enough to wank off DOES NOT mean that I actually want to live out those particular fantasies with other women, or my wife. I can get off watching group sex, even gangbangs, but I am not at all interested in physically taking part in either.
I don't know if I am explaining myself well. What I'm trying to say is that if your boyfriend has his head on straight and treats you well AND watches porn, maybe you should just thank your lucky stars because you are in better shape than most other people.
posted by sic at 2:59 AM on August 12, 2005
I don't know if I am explaining myself well. What I'm trying to say is that if your boyfriend has his head on straight and treats you well AND watches porn, maybe you should just thank your lucky stars because you are in better shape than most other people.
posted by sic at 2:59 AM on August 12, 2005
Sexual desires and fantasies do not preclude a person to fantasise ***only*** about their Significant Other - quite often it's a more of a turn-on to think of more "dangerous liasons" (fantasise about cheating). I think there's not much honest debate heard from the anti-porn lobby (not saying you're part of that group) - I think a good relationship involves less jealousy and more honesty. Just because a guy's in a relationship, it doesn't mean he only finds his SO attractive and sexy - of course he still finds other women attractive and sexy. It's all this guilt-tripping and "how could he!"-type righteousness that I find dishonest. There are a lot of unhealthy relationships out there where one partner is in complete denial of the other's sexual needs/desires. Might as well have an open relationship than live that kind of lie. I've heard talking about these things is good :-)
posted by FieldingGoodney at 3:17 AM on August 12, 2005
posted by FieldingGoodney at 3:17 AM on August 12, 2005
I'll be brutally honest.
In a very general sense it's been the role of females (not just humans, but of many different species that reproduce sexually) to find the best mate possible both in terms of genetics and likelihood of providing protection during and immediately after gestation. On the flip side of the coin it's been the role of males to successfully reproduce with as many different healthy females as possible in order to maximize the number of surviving offspring.
This is no longer sociologically acceptable behavior for human males.
That doesn't mean this genetically-ingrained behavioral tendency has suddenly ceased to exist, however.
When you say that:
"I just have a hard time shaking this gut feeling that if he's looking at porn, it means he wants something other than me." the simple truth is that, yes, pornography probably does provide him with something that you cannot even if he is himself unaware of it, which is probably the case.
As teenagers men masturbate because they are, 'unnaturally' one might say, hormonally driven to copulate but unable to do so. As adults, men look at porn because they are, 'unnaturally' one might say, hormonally driven to copulate with multiple partners but unable to do so.
What you're doing wrong here is failing to understand how this works in your favor. Time spent looking at porn and fulfilling those needs without acting on it is time spent not not thinking about other women who are, frankly, a threat to you. Most of the women I've dated have told me that they by and large consider other women to be "backstabbing bitches." Competition for eligible males runs fierce, apparently.
What I'm suggesting is that it is already a case of "you vs. them" and that when "them" is a group of virtual women who fulfill his needs without providing him with any reason to actually leave you, you win. I hate to say this, but I feel I should mention that being emotionally bothered by this despite it working very much in your favor is exactly the sort of 'female irrationality' that drives men straight off a cliff and into the pit of misogyny.
Your former partner simply had a psychological addiction. Whether it was to porn or video games or dancing disco until 4AM every night really wasn't the issue at hand, although it's obvious why (very reasonably in my opinion) felt hurt by it.
With your current partner the sex is good, there's if anything less likelihood that he's cheating on you, and you're pretty much in a good place right now. You can talk to him about it and see how he feels - either he'll want to make it something he shares with you or not. Personally it's part of my 'me time,' so I prefer not to involve my wife. YMMV.
posted by Ryvar at 3:18 AM on August 12, 2005
In a very general sense it's been the role of females (not just humans, but of many different species that reproduce sexually) to find the best mate possible both in terms of genetics and likelihood of providing protection during and immediately after gestation. On the flip side of the coin it's been the role of males to successfully reproduce with as many different healthy females as possible in order to maximize the number of surviving offspring.
This is no longer sociologically acceptable behavior for human males.
That doesn't mean this genetically-ingrained behavioral tendency has suddenly ceased to exist, however.
When you say that:
"I just have a hard time shaking this gut feeling that if he's looking at porn, it means he wants something other than me." the simple truth is that, yes, pornography probably does provide him with something that you cannot even if he is himself unaware of it, which is probably the case.
As teenagers men masturbate because they are, 'unnaturally' one might say, hormonally driven to copulate but unable to do so. As adults, men look at porn because they are, 'unnaturally' one might say, hormonally driven to copulate with multiple partners but unable to do so.
What you're doing wrong here is failing to understand how this works in your favor. Time spent looking at porn and fulfilling those needs without acting on it is time spent not not thinking about other women who are, frankly, a threat to you. Most of the women I've dated have told me that they by and large consider other women to be "backstabbing bitches." Competition for eligible males runs fierce, apparently.
What I'm suggesting is that it is already a case of "you vs. them" and that when "them" is a group of virtual women who fulfill his needs without providing him with any reason to actually leave you, you win. I hate to say this, but I feel I should mention that being emotionally bothered by this despite it working very much in your favor is exactly the sort of 'female irrationality' that drives men straight off a cliff and into the pit of misogyny.
Your former partner simply had a psychological addiction. Whether it was to porn or video games or dancing disco until 4AM every night really wasn't the issue at hand, although it's obvious why (very reasonably in my opinion) felt hurt by it.
With your current partner the sex is good, there's if anything less likelihood that he's cheating on you, and you're pretty much in a good place right now. You can talk to him about it and see how he feels - either he'll want to make it something he shares with you or not. Personally it's part of my 'me time,' so I prefer not to involve my wife. YMMV.
posted by Ryvar at 3:18 AM on August 12, 2005
Like anything else, porn represents different things for different people, and what it means for your boyfriend could be anywhere at all on that spectrum The only way you will ever know is through time and experience, but that's also true of every other aspect of your relationship.
I could tell you stories from my own experience that would validate either your worst fears or your fondest hopes, depending on what relationship I focused on... But that wouldn't tell you anything about your own situation.
I will tell you that after my bad experiences, I risked becoming a suspicious, jealous, jumpy woman (please note: this isn't sexist; I've seen the same sort of conditioned response in men), and I had to just bear down and reject that behavior in myself in order to give myself any chance of natural happiness for the rest of my life.
It's just basically something you have to grapple with yourself, and to do that , you should let all the rest you know and learn about your boyfriend be your guide. If it helps at all, when trying to imagine how the porn can be simply neutral or even possibly helpful, imagine that when you see "House Beautiful", or "National Geographic", or whatever floats your boat, that it doesn't necessarily mean that you hate your house, or that you're just dying to move to Morocco... But those images may give you some ideas about adding a spot of color to your living room, or where to go on holiday with your boyfriend. Porn can be like that, too. Or not.
And, of course, if it feels like these fears are really overwhelming or unnaturally persistent, it couldn't hurt one little bit to talk to a good therapist.
posted by taz at 4:40 AM on August 12, 2005
I could tell you stories from my own experience that would validate either your worst fears or your fondest hopes, depending on what relationship I focused on... But that wouldn't tell you anything about your own situation.
I will tell you that after my bad experiences, I risked becoming a suspicious, jealous, jumpy woman (please note: this isn't sexist; I've seen the same sort of conditioned response in men), and I had to just bear down and reject that behavior in myself in order to give myself any chance of natural happiness for the rest of my life.
It's just basically something you have to grapple with yourself, and to do that , you should let all the rest you know and learn about your boyfriend be your guide. If it helps at all, when trying to imagine how the porn can be simply neutral or even possibly helpful, imagine that when you see "House Beautiful", or "National Geographic", or whatever floats your boat, that it doesn't necessarily mean that you hate your house, or that you're just dying to move to Morocco... But those images may give you some ideas about adding a spot of color to your living room, or where to go on holiday with your boyfriend. Porn can be like that, too. Or not.
And, of course, if it feels like these fears are really overwhelming or unnaturally persistent, it couldn't hurt one little bit to talk to a good therapist.
posted by taz at 4:40 AM on August 12, 2005
The former partner you had who spent 7+ hours had a problem, but as you've seen Porn was probably just how the problem was expressed.
Thank being said, there is still pr0n out there that IS degrading to women. However it is unlikely that you partner is big on sites where women are caused to gag during aggressive fellatio or where anal sex leads directly to oral sex without a case for sanitation.
I am married and very happy and I look at pr0n nearly daily. I've discussed this with my wife, who actually encourages the practice because of the differences in our sex drives. What i look at is good old fashioned healthy people with good looking bodies.
The pr0n will never live up to my wife. Even when we are both tired and out of shape a real woman trumps a computer screen any day.
posted by BeerGrin at 5:26 AM on August 12, 2005
Thank being said, there is still pr0n out there that IS degrading to women. However it is unlikely that you partner is big on sites where women are caused to gag during aggressive fellatio or where anal sex leads directly to oral sex without a case for sanitation.
I am married and very happy and I look at pr0n nearly daily. I've discussed this with my wife, who actually encourages the practice because of the differences in our sex drives. What i look at is good old fashioned healthy people with good looking bodies.
The pr0n will never live up to my wife. Even when we are both tired and out of shape a real woman trumps a computer screen any day.
posted by BeerGrin at 5:26 AM on August 12, 2005
In most cases, it's a fantasy tool. Generalization: men are typically more stimulated by imagery, women more by words--which is hauntingly in line with the porn/romance novel industry.
I and she can fantasize all we like. It's exciting.
posted by plinth at 6:04 AM on August 12, 2005
I and she can fantasize all we like. It's exciting.
posted by plinth at 6:04 AM on August 12, 2005
I only look at porn when I'm bored. Its also a good outlet to keep me from ogling every real woman I see. But then again, I'm currently single. When I've been dating chicas, I don't look at porn because I'm not bored. I'm not suggesting that he is bored with you. Maybe for him, it is the equivalent of reading the front page of the newspaper in the morning over coffee.
I'd say, ask him about it. Be curious but not confrontational and have a mind-blowing pork session the conversation.
posted by sciurus at 6:13 AM on August 12, 2005
I'd say, ask him about it. Be curious but not confrontational and have a mind-blowing pork session the conversation.
posted by sciurus at 6:13 AM on August 12, 2005
OK, I think the thing that many people are reiterating here is that looking at porn means completely different things to different people. And your main issue is that emotionally, you feel like he's replacing you, and there is a bit of secondary "porn is degrading to women" going on that may be feeding off the first thing, or vice versa.
Like you said, logically, you know that he's not replacing you: you have frequent, mind blowing sex. I think you need to try and feed that logical side. So I suggest finding some female positive porn, maybe, for both of you to share. Make it less of a thing that he does by himself? Try Candida Royale's stuff. Go to Toys in Babeland. They have a bunch of really positive porn, and the store is run by women.
Of course, maybe he doesn't want to share. Which is cool, too. It doesn't mean he's getting off with anyone else. And you know that. Maybe you can look at some of the porn for yourself, just to get comfortable with it.
OK and finally, personal anecdote time: My husband and I have a really good sex life, and he looks at porn pretty much every day. And probably stuff that is a leeetle more kinky than many people here. I don't, mainly because I'm not so much of a visual person. But if he looks at a website that writes dirty stories, then I'm there. He does it openly, sometimes shows me stuff that he thinks we might like to do. It's both resource and stimulant. Heh. If he ever turned down sex for porn, then I would be worried, but not before.
posted by gaspode at 6:21 AM on August 12, 2005
Like you said, logically, you know that he's not replacing you: you have frequent, mind blowing sex. I think you need to try and feed that logical side. So I suggest finding some female positive porn, maybe, for both of you to share. Make it less of a thing that he does by himself? Try Candida Royale's stuff. Go to Toys in Babeland. They have a bunch of really positive porn, and the store is run by women.
Of course, maybe he doesn't want to share. Which is cool, too. It doesn't mean he's getting off with anyone else. And you know that. Maybe you can look at some of the porn for yourself, just to get comfortable with it.
OK and finally, personal anecdote time: My husband and I have a really good sex life, and he looks at porn pretty much every day. And probably stuff that is a leeetle more kinky than many people here. I don't, mainly because I'm not so much of a visual person. But if he looks at a website that writes dirty stories, then I'm there. He does it openly, sometimes shows me stuff that he thinks we might like to do. It's both resource and stimulant. Heh. If he ever turned down sex for porn, then I would be worried, but not before.
posted by gaspode at 6:21 AM on August 12, 2005
A lot of the time, porn is used (by any gender!) for a quick physical release without the need to take the energy to interact with a partner. As long as he's spending plenty of time and emotional and physical energy on you, the porn use is totally not in the same ballpark.
I also agree with the suggestion to explore porn that you might enjoy yourself and might share with him. Blowfish is another good resource - they organize the DVD section of their website by lots of different categories and describe the content in a clear and non-tacky manner.
posted by matildaben at 6:27 AM on August 12, 2005
I also agree with the suggestion to explore porn that you might enjoy yourself and might share with him. Blowfish is another good resource - they organize the DVD section of their website by lots of different categories and describe the content in a clear and non-tacky manner.
posted by matildaben at 6:27 AM on August 12, 2005
I just have a hard time shaking this gut feeling that if he's looking at porn, it means he wants something other than me. Logically, I totally understand that's not the case
That's not necessarily true. I can't speak for the guy, but men "want" a lot of things.
It's somewhat natural for men to look at a lot of women and, yes, even be sexually stimulated (in a mental sense, not a hands-on one!) by other women. This does not mean they won't be faithful to their partner, though.
Consider it like this.. I like steak. Heck, I really love steak. It's my favorite food. But I also like ice cream occasionally, and I like cake too. I will never deviate steak from being my favorite, but if I want to eat some ice cream from time to time, so be it. For most men who don't cheat, pornography can satisfy the "other" interests, while their primary attention remains on their true partner.
posted by wackybrit at 6:38 AM on August 12, 2005
That's not necessarily true. I can't speak for the guy, but men "want" a lot of things.
It's somewhat natural for men to look at a lot of women and, yes, even be sexually stimulated (in a mental sense, not a hands-on one!) by other women. This does not mean they won't be faithful to their partner, though.
Consider it like this.. I like steak. Heck, I really love steak. It's my favorite food. But I also like ice cream occasionally, and I like cake too. I will never deviate steak from being my favorite, but if I want to eat some ice cream from time to time, so be it. For most men who don't cheat, pornography can satisfy the "other" interests, while their primary attention remains on their true partner.
posted by wackybrit at 6:38 AM on August 12, 2005
Go on, share some porn.
Look, you cognitively understand the issue- your initial experiences with porn equated it with humilation and betrayal. Your long-term adult relationship with a bona-fide addict both fed from and reinforced your relationship with porn. You now are having difficulty reconciling your relationship with a man and his (and your) relationship with porn.
I wonder, honestly, if something like AlAnon might help you. You seem to be playing out a milder version of the patterns that daughters of alcoholic/abusive fathers can fall into. The challenge for you is to build up enough trust with this guy to accept that you're not going to fall into that pattern.
posted by mkultra at 7:31 AM on August 12, 2005
Look, you cognitively understand the issue- your initial experiences with porn equated it with humilation and betrayal. Your long-term adult relationship with a bona-fide addict both fed from and reinforced your relationship with porn. You now are having difficulty reconciling your relationship with a man and his (and your) relationship with porn.
I wonder, honestly, if something like AlAnon might help you. You seem to be playing out a milder version of the patterns that daughters of alcoholic/abusive fathers can fall into. The challenge for you is to build up enough trust with this guy to accept that you're not going to fall into that pattern.
posted by mkultra at 7:31 AM on August 12, 2005
Try porn made by women. It is more likely to push all of your "buttons" so to speak. Both Good Vibrations and Blowfish seem to have a decent selection.
posted by whatnot at 8:00 AM on August 12, 2005
posted by whatnot at 8:00 AM on August 12, 2005
I used porn as a surrogate for the kinky things that my ex S.O.'s wouldn't do (and things i wouldn't ask her to do.) I still had a desire for these things, but since she made it clear she wouldn't do these things I turned to porn. This didn't mean that i was choosing porn over her, but that i was using porn as an extension of my love life so that i was happy in a relationship that was otherwise very satisfying. I didn't keep the porn a secret, and explained my reasoning behind it to her.
Now i use porn as a replacement because i can't deal with women right now sexually, i don't have the energy or the will...in a few months maybe. Silly stupid broken hearts.
posted by schyler523 at 8:15 AM on August 12, 2005
Now i use porn as a replacement because i can't deal with women right now sexually, i don't have the energy or the will...in a few months maybe. Silly stupid broken hearts.
posted by schyler523 at 8:15 AM on August 12, 2005
"I'm looking to understand its role in men's lives"
I look at porn when I'm anxious. When I'm worried about something I'm working on (job, hobby, whatever), when it's not happening right, I get anxious and I tend to gravitate to the computer and look at porn. It's purely an escape, a way of not dealing with a sense of personal failure. Interestingly, I don't use it to escape from relationship issues, only problems in manipulating the physical world. My sense of self-worth is apparently tied up in my ability to control things (wood, film, computers) but not in my ability to control people. Hence porn has nothing to do with women, but in my own self-image problems.
posted by johngumbo at 10:00 AM on August 12, 2005
I look at porn when I'm anxious. When I'm worried about something I'm working on (job, hobby, whatever), when it's not happening right, I get anxious and I tend to gravitate to the computer and look at porn. It's purely an escape, a way of not dealing with a sense of personal failure. Interestingly, I don't use it to escape from relationship issues, only problems in manipulating the physical world. My sense of self-worth is apparently tied up in my ability to control things (wood, film, computers) but not in my ability to control people. Hence porn has nothing to do with women, but in my own self-image problems.
posted by johngumbo at 10:00 AM on August 12, 2005
On the flip side of the coin it's been the role of males to successfully reproduce with as many different healthy females as possible in order to maximize the number of surviving offspring.
This is no longer sociologically acceptable behavior for human males.
If that was true, then Hugh Hefner would be an ordinary old man, rather than the envy of half the men in the English speaking world.
being emotionally bothered by this despite it working very much in your favor is exactly the sort of 'female irrationality' that drives men straight off a cliff and into the pit of misogyny.
And that is just nonsensical. After the anecdotes of porn usage which has slipped over to the addictive in both anonymous' post and elsewhere in this thread, she has every right to feel trepidation, and I don't think she has to-- as she has done in every other word of her post-- apologize for it. How can she instantly tell when her parter's porn usage is something normal and when it's a signal that something's wrong? She can't. Porn means very different things to different people, from material for a quick wank to a destructive emotional dependency. And some porn is very disturbing indeed, all the way from the enacting of the violent to the grotesquerie of bodies drastically modified by plastic surgery (not to mention other ways of using and exploiting the performers).
I'm just saying that anonymous has a right to her feelings, and her worries. To assert that her discomfort with her partner's porn usage-- despite the admissions in this thread that it can become an escape from a relationship or a substitute for one-- is something that she does not have a right to, or has to justify, is unfair at best. Things are rather more complicated than that, particularly in this society where women are conflicted about their (our) bodies, and beauty, and sex, and desire, and how all that plays into social power, and that men have traditionally been freer to choose partners and to roam not because of any evolutionary biology pseudo-science but because they've been in charge, and have made the rules. To get back to the EB argument, if women are naturally monogamous, then why all the elaborate rules and punishments in every human society which regulate female sexual freedom (and which we usually call 'marriage')?
If anonymous' boyfriend uses porn in the way it's described by many people here, as an adjunct to fantasy, and it doesn't appear to interfere with their sex life, then fine. But this touches on issues of deep anxiety, and her worries shouldn't be dismissed out of hand by the current belief in some quarters (and most of Mefi, I'm guessing) that porn is an unmixed social/sexual good. It's not. You can be a 'sex-positive feminist', whatever that means (why does 'feminist' imply being anti-sex?) and still have hesitations towards porn.
posted by jokeefe at 10:30 AM on August 12, 2005 [1 favorite]
This is no longer sociologically acceptable behavior for human males.
If that was true, then Hugh Hefner would be an ordinary old man, rather than the envy of half the men in the English speaking world.
being emotionally bothered by this despite it working very much in your favor is exactly the sort of 'female irrationality' that drives men straight off a cliff and into the pit of misogyny.
And that is just nonsensical. After the anecdotes of porn usage which has slipped over to the addictive in both anonymous' post and elsewhere in this thread, she has every right to feel trepidation, and I don't think she has to-- as she has done in every other word of her post-- apologize for it. How can she instantly tell when her parter's porn usage is something normal and when it's a signal that something's wrong? She can't. Porn means very different things to different people, from material for a quick wank to a destructive emotional dependency. And some porn is very disturbing indeed, all the way from the enacting of the violent to the grotesquerie of bodies drastically modified by plastic surgery (not to mention other ways of using and exploiting the performers).
I'm just saying that anonymous has a right to her feelings, and her worries. To assert that her discomfort with her partner's porn usage-- despite the admissions in this thread that it can become an escape from a relationship or a substitute for one-- is something that she does not have a right to, or has to justify, is unfair at best. Things are rather more complicated than that, particularly in this society where women are conflicted about their (our) bodies, and beauty, and sex, and desire, and how all that plays into social power, and that men have traditionally been freer to choose partners and to roam not because of any evolutionary biology pseudo-science but because they've been in charge, and have made the rules. To get back to the EB argument, if women are naturally monogamous, then why all the elaborate rules and punishments in every human society which regulate female sexual freedom (and which we usually call 'marriage')?
If anonymous' boyfriend uses porn in the way it's described by many people here, as an adjunct to fantasy, and it doesn't appear to interfere with their sex life, then fine. But this touches on issues of deep anxiety, and her worries shouldn't be dismissed out of hand by the current belief in some quarters (and most of Mefi, I'm guessing) that porn is an unmixed social/sexual good. It's not. You can be a 'sex-positive feminist', whatever that means (why does 'feminist' imply being anti-sex?) and still have hesitations towards porn.
posted by jokeefe at 10:30 AM on August 12, 2005 [1 favorite]
Obviously there are lots of different, valid responses to this question, and that's that. I will only add that I, personally, have always been convinced by the porn-is-degrading-to-women feminist position, and frankly mystified by the porn-is-good brand of post-feminism. I just don't get it. If you're feeling that porn is degrading to women, that's because it often is! The question is: does the fact that porn degrades women bother you sufficiently to bring it up with your boyfriend?
Personally, I would take your feelings and opinions seriously, rather than trying to repress one set of ideas in favor of another for the sake of convenience in your relationship.
posted by josh at 12:44 PM on August 12, 2005 [2 favorites]
Personally, I would take your feelings and opinions seriously, rather than trying to repress one set of ideas in favor of another for the sake of convenience in your relationship.
posted by josh at 12:44 PM on August 12, 2005 [2 favorites]
I'm very suspicious of "brutally honest" generalizations such as Ryvar's that claim one point of view, with the total authority of evolution conferred on them, for controversial topics like this.
I like looking at pretty girls, and sometimes I like looking at men and women mating. I also like to be in a monogamous relationship and have great sex with the object of my undivided affections. This doesn't feel like an internal conflict at all. I suspect that if I could put a hypothetical girlfriend into my head so that she could see what it did in fact feel like, she'd immediately quit worrying about it forever.
posted by ikkyu2 at 5:48 PM on August 12, 2005
I like looking at pretty girls, and sometimes I like looking at men and women mating. I also like to be in a monogamous relationship and have great sex with the object of my undivided affections. This doesn't feel like an internal conflict at all. I suspect that if I could put a hypothetical girlfriend into my head so that she could see what it did in fact feel like, she'd immediately quit worrying about it forever.
posted by ikkyu2 at 5:48 PM on August 12, 2005
quite often it's a more of a turn-on to think of more "dangerous liasons" (fantasise about cheating)
That's only one possibility. I know in my case, if the imagined fantasy woman exists as an other woman, it's no longer a pleasant fantasy. I can't rationalize cheating. So part of the fantasy, if I'm having one, is being free to pursue this fantasy woman, which isn't to say that my fantasy involves dumping my girlfriend; it's an alternate reality altogether. As some have said here, the fantasy has nothing to do with my sig other.
It's dangerous to guess what's going on in your lad's head rather than simply talk to him about it. (not that imagined cheating is necessarily that bad, either, but just to say that it might not even be that) As for your past man, well, anything taken to excess...
posted by dreamsign at 5:51 PM on August 12, 2005
That's only one possibility. I know in my case, if the imagined fantasy woman exists as an other woman, it's no longer a pleasant fantasy. I can't rationalize cheating. So part of the fantasy, if I'm having one, is being free to pursue this fantasy woman, which isn't to say that my fantasy involves dumping my girlfriend; it's an alternate reality altogether. As some have said here, the fantasy has nothing to do with my sig other.
It's dangerous to guess what's going on in your lad's head rather than simply talk to him about it. (not that imagined cheating is necessarily that bad, either, but just to say that it might not even be that) As for your past man, well, anything taken to excess...
posted by dreamsign at 5:51 PM on August 12, 2005
I get a very, very different kind of sexual buzz from porn than I do from interacting with my partner. For one thing, looking at porn requires no effort at all on my part (or, for that matter, hers), and doesn't involve any kind of emotional connection; for another, I don't generally project myself into it. Usually I use it to calm my nerves if I'm jumpy for some reason.
I definitely don't think of it as something I'm doing instead of sex with my partner, or think of it as representing something that my partner lacks. It's just a different thing.
posted by 88robots at 6:59 PM on August 12, 2005
I definitely don't think of it as something I'm doing instead of sex with my partner, or think of it as representing something that my partner lacks. It's just a different thing.
posted by 88robots at 6:59 PM on August 12, 2005
jokeefe, I think Hugh Hefner would be an ordinary man if it WAS acceptable to have sex with as many women as possible. He's the envy of many men precisely because it's not really considered acceptable to philander, the same way that James Bond is the envy of many men (& women, too) because it's not sociologically acceptable for everybody and their brother to go around shooting people, blowing stuff up, and getting in car chases.
posted by dagnyscott at 9:12 PM on August 12, 2005
posted by dagnyscott at 9:12 PM on August 12, 2005
I watch porn daily, but as I've mentioned in AskMe, all else being equal, I'd rather live without it. The next time I'm in a satisfying relationship, I want to phase out my porn-watching. I can understand guys who want to keep watching it, but to be honest, most of us have already seen enough when we're single, and most of us could quit if we're getting the sex we want. Granted, "getting the sex we want" is tough.
Still, if my next girlfriend told me to stop watching porn, I'd be open to it. I've known enough men who honestly don't watch it (these are close friends who knew they could be honest with me) to believe it's possible.
So leave that open as an option. If he understands your reasons, and that you don't just want to control him or deny him pleasure, he might consider dropping it.
posted by NickDouglas at 1:06 PM on August 13, 2005
Still, if my next girlfriend told me to stop watching porn, I'd be open to it. I've known enough men who honestly don't watch it (these are close friends who knew they could be honest with me) to believe it's possible.
So leave that open as an option. If he understands your reasons, and that you don't just want to control him or deny him pleasure, he might consider dropping it.
posted by NickDouglas at 1:06 PM on August 13, 2005
As has been pointed out, porn is many things to different people. The question, that you seem to already have answered, is what role porn plays in your boyfriend's life. If he's treating you right, and if the sex is great, it seems pretty clear that porn is not something that is degrading in his life and thoughts. It may be something that makes it possible for him to imagine good sex, and you may be benefiting from that. If he starts to do things that you don't like in bed, and if those things seem inspired by porn, you might want to have a conversation with him about it.
A few people have suggested viewing porn yourself, and that is something that you might consider. You might view it with your boyfriend, and you might find that if you pay attention to what makes him hot, and to what makes you hot, then your sex might improve. Whoever compared porn to a design magazine had a good analogy. When you look at it, it's like looking at room designs, you can think: God, that's ugly, or I never thought of doing that before, that seems like the perfect solution for the living room!
posted by OmieWise at 6:50 AM on August 15, 2005
A few people have suggested viewing porn yourself, and that is something that you might consider. You might view it with your boyfriend, and you might find that if you pay attention to what makes him hot, and to what makes you hot, then your sex might improve. Whoever compared porn to a design magazine had a good analogy. When you look at it, it's like looking at room designs, you can think: God, that's ugly, or I never thought of doing that before, that seems like the perfect solution for the living room!
posted by OmieWise at 6:50 AM on August 15, 2005
When I idly browse porn it's usually out of boredom, procrastination, or (as many other people have said) if I've got non-relationship anxieties on my mind. For example, during finals I could probably do myself a favour and install NetNanny on my computer.
Almost all of the porn that actually catches my attention is when something in it reminds me of my girlfriend. For example I might see a picture that looks like the small of her back, or breasts the same size as hers, or more generally just the same build. These habits may not bee representative of the general porn-viewing population -- or they may -- but I doubt I'd be the only one to look at porn this way.
To put things into context, I would describe my porn-viewing habits as reasonably normal. On average I might look 1-2 times a week if I'm seeing my girlfriend 2-3 times a week. More if I'm not. Occasionally I'll go a long time without seeing any, and as I mentioned above, there are periods when for many reasons together (stuck at home studying + procrastination + lack of human contact + anxiety = finals) I see a bit.
Just as a final word about it, relationship-affecting problems generally present themselves as problems in the relationship. I know that may seem self evident, but what I'm saying is that if you're having frequent mind-blowing sex, and if the rest of the relationship is good, there's no need to worry. In fact you can use it as evidence to reinforce (or in your case, build) the idea that porn can be a harmless factor in a great relationship.
posted by teem at 9:55 PM on October 19, 2005
Almost all of the porn that actually catches my attention is when something in it reminds me of my girlfriend. For example I might see a picture that looks like the small of her back, or breasts the same size as hers, or more generally just the same build. These habits may not bee representative of the general porn-viewing population -- or they may -- but I doubt I'd be the only one to look at porn this way.
To put things into context, I would describe my porn-viewing habits as reasonably normal. On average I might look 1-2 times a week if I'm seeing my girlfriend 2-3 times a week. More if I'm not. Occasionally I'll go a long time without seeing any, and as I mentioned above, there are periods when for many reasons together (stuck at home studying + procrastination + lack of human contact + anxiety = finals) I see a bit.
Just as a final word about it, relationship-affecting problems generally present themselves as problems in the relationship. I know that may seem self evident, but what I'm saying is that if you're having frequent mind-blowing sex, and if the rest of the relationship is good, there's no need to worry. In fact you can use it as evidence to reinforce (or in your case, build) the idea that porn can be a harmless factor in a great relationship.
posted by teem at 9:55 PM on October 19, 2005
This thread is closed to new comments.
(no offense intended)
Porn, for me at least, serves as a surogate for when I'm not able to obtain sexual satisfaction from a real life other person. The key word here is surogate. Maybe your friend views it differently.
Perhaps ask him what kind of visual imagery he appreciates? Maybe compare and contrast what he appreciates before he was with you, and now that he's with you - it's possible that he has ... (I don't want to say kinks) triggers that he likes.
If those triggers are in the same vein as why some porn can be considered "legitimately" "bad," then... but maybe he likes lingerie or stockings or submission or foreplay or boots, or something that his sexual relationship with you hasn't (yet?) explored and that you might be interested in persuing?
posted by PurplePorpoise at 11:26 PM on August 11, 2005