Extroverts, please speak up!

August 19, 2008 7:22 PM

This one is for the extroverts. As someone who has struggled with social anxiety/shyness to varying degrees my entire life, I'm very curious to know what your inner dialogue is like?

What goes on in your mind in various everyday social situations? Are there 'positive' things (if anything at all) that you're saying to yourself or is it just the opposite in that there isn't much of a dialogue prior to the action and instead of thinking (or overthinking) about the hows and whys and whatifs, you just act.

For example, you spot an attractive stranger across the room, decide you'd like to talk to them. Do you then just walk across the room and do it just because you wish to talk to them, without any planning, or caring about the outcome? Is that how it is, when you boil it down? You just do and think/evaluate later? What if the outcome isn't what you'd desired? What are you mental processes in that case, post action. Do you even have an inner critic or were you just born with the ability to 'be in the moment' ?

I realize that it is 'natural' to experience some degree of anxiety in the scenarios similar to the one mentioned above and yet there seem to be some for whom feeling anxious (at least socially) seems like a totally alien concept. It is from those people (though comments from others are also welcome) that I'd like to hear. I just want to know what kind of self evaluation (if any at all) is going on in your mind when you're in social situations.

Thanks!

posted by anonymous to science & nature (32 comments total)

Um, extroverts don't have an interior life. "Deciding" is not something they do, it's just a word they assign to explain their actions to others post hoc. They have "mental processes" in the literal sense, but not what you or I would call consciousness, the reflective passage of mental processes before an internal executive.

Of course, the tragedy of this question is that it won't elicit true answers from extroverts. The language that they've acquired by acculturation mimics an inner life, and they will blithely describe their "decisions" and internal processes as though their experiences are just like yours or mine. This is not dishonest, exactly, since lying requires forming an intention with regard to another mind. It's just pattern-matching, a survival strategy to fit in a society whose language appears to talk about some interior "mind."
posted by grobstein at 7:29 PM on August 19, 2008 [20 favorites]

I went from introvert to extrovert as I grew up, and here's my answer in a long previous thread about the things I said to myself.
posted by sweetkid at 7:36 PM on August 19, 2008

Im not sure. I can understand the question but then when I *think* of these scenarios( such as at a pub if I want to talk to someone), I can't think directly of my inner dialogue. Im sure I have some. I don't plan what I am going to say and sometimes that is a mistake. When/if I crew up I usually laugh and then later yell at myself in my head or go over it an shrug it off.
Everyone decides, its human nature for introverts and extroverts.
It is an interesting thought and question but when you do "boil it down" I cant remember (clearly)what I was thinking...
ha!
posted by femmme at 7:37 PM on August 19, 2008

Get the first thing that's going to come out of my mouth ready. Usually wing it from there. It's more fun that way.

Most of the time though, it's a radio station that has a tendency to repeat parts of songs and create mash-ups that would never work in real life.
posted by theichibun at 7:44 PM on August 19, 2008

I think an ability to manage, modulate or simply put aside expectations in a social situation goes a long way towards being an extrovert or is characteristic of an extrovert.

If I don't place too many expectation on how I hope a particular interaction will turn out, then I am free to simply say what I feel and be myself. That's not to say I don't care what people think of me, or am not careful or thoughtful about what I say, it's more that I don't see the success or failure of a specific social interaction as a reflection on my self worth.

I would also say that having a generally optimistic attitude and giving other people the benefit of the doubt eases social anxiety. People want to like you, who wants to have a bad time or meet someone awful.
posted by brookeb at 8:01 PM on August 19, 2008

grobstein. I'm fascinated by your response. I believe I am more extroverted than introverted, but I do believe I make some important conscious decisions. However, I also believe that many of the important decisions I have made, I made them without making them. Meaning, I just went. And I'm not saying that's a good thing. To relate this to anon's post: I have absolutely just walked across that room, no hesitation whatsoever. It would be like going to a neutral figure, an object even, if you have to think of it that way. In terms of self criticizing, the more important the objective, the more invested I am in it -- the worse I am likely to feel about failing. I have only in the past few years been able to effectively self-criticize (in a building, healthy way) - the result of therapy. that is to say: it's not that I always thought I was right before. I recognized errors of judgement -- but they didn't really matter to me all that much. I could very very easily move past them without doing much more than acknowledging them. Now those mistakes matter to me a lot more; and I do, indeed, try to correct them.

Still, there were many decisions I made after arduous consideration, despite my extroversion (grobstein!).

But even today, for a good many small decisions, like crossing that room, striking up conversation, shaking that person's hand ... I'll generally just go. Otherwise I don't think I would be able to operate effectively as myself.

Finally, if I were ever considering the invasion of a country, I promise you I wouldn't do it on a "gut feeling."
posted by punkbitch at 8:01 PM on August 19, 2008 [2 favorites]

I'll start off by saying that I consider myself neither an extrovert nor an introvert because I think that's an unnatural system of classifying people.

But, I understand where you're coming from in asking about social anxiety and I might fit your definition of an extrovert if that includes talking to attractive strangers (? I'm not totally sure of your intention in this particular example, it seems like you're saying introverts wouldn't be able to go up to attractive strangers, or would perhaps have a different inner dialogue.) Just a tip, though, no one views social anxiety as an alien concept.

Anyway, long answer short, if I saw an "attractive stranger across the room." I would think, I'd like to talk to him. Is he busy doing something else or just sitting around? Does he look receptive? What excuse can I use that doesn't seem ridiculous? Is he wearing/reading/somehow engaged in something I'm interested in? I hope he doesn't shoot me down. I hope he's smart and nice. Don't be awkward. Okay, here it goes.
posted by Solon and Thanks at 8:05 PM on August 19, 2008

(hm, to clarify after reading punkbitch's comment, the thoughts I mentioned happen fairly quickly. It's more "stream-of-consciousness" style than "sitting around agonizing over this for a half hour.")
posted by Solon and Thanks at 8:08 PM on August 19, 2008

OP, I know what you are going through, it's called overthinking; it has happened to me.

grobstein is so wrong, extroverts can be perfectly capable of monitoring their own thoughts and emotions and planning and deciding (Read Emotional Intelligence, it’s been out forever and it's good).

When extroverts want to approach someone we still hear the internal dialogue but we know that it is mostly shit and we laugh at it, and introverts take their internal dialogue Very Seriously. Extroverts are more playful and just have a higher tolerance for frustration.

I recommend that you stop talking to yourself. Try it, you will see that most of what you do, you do automatically. If that seems like a scary thought... it shouldn't, stop talking to yourself.

Smile more. You should see what your face probably looks like when you are feeling anxious and overanalyzing everything.
posted by Theloupgarou at 8:09 PM on August 19, 2008 [1 favorite]

I have scored pert near in the region between the two -and am married to an extrovert.

The diff is that your locus of focus is interior if you are an introvert (you are thinking about your thoughts) and exterior if you are an extrovert (hey, there's that girl, I am gonna go say hi!) An introvert would have thought (there's that girl-if I say hi will she think I am weird, do I have spinach between my teeth-is she here with that guy over there or not-oh, too much trouble, let me just sit here and have a crudite...)
posted by konolia at 8:09 PM on August 19, 2008

Um, extroverts don't have an interior life....Of course, the tragedy of this question is that it won't elicit true answers from extroverts.

Gee, I wonder why? Who wants to defend themself against utter bullshit like that? I won't lie, similar attitudes have kept me out of many threads like this. But what the hell, I'll give this one a shot, particularly since the OP seems very sincere, as someone others might describe as extroverted (but apparently I don't have any thoughts in my head, so we'll see how it goes).

For example, you spot an attractive stranger across the room, decide you'd like to talk to them. Do you then just walk across the room and do it just because you wish to talk to them, without any planning, or caring about the outcome? Is that how it is, when you boil it down? You just do and think/evaluate later?

Sometimes, maybe. You have to remember that just because you see someone do something you consider daring at one point, that does not mean they always act that way. Sometimes I can work a whole room and talk to everyone, other times, I don't have the energy to talk to people I don't know and I stick to one corner. And I think there is an element of sizing up the situation beforehand and guessing how it will go- like tonight, I went to a friend's BBQ and there were some people there I didn't know, and I didn't go out of my way to talk to most of them because I guessed, based on looking at them, that we wouldn't have very much to talk about. Valid? Who knows, but that's what I did. And they didn't go out of their way to talk to me, so I didn't get to know those people. I think a lot of my social confidence has to do with pre-selecting situations where I know I'll be comfortable. That's one of the reasons I live in NYC- I feel comfortable with the people I meet here more so than I have any other place I've lived. I've been in plenty of situations where I'm with people where there's no common ground and I think they'll think I'm weird, and I would be a lot less likely to approach someone in a situation like that than in a situation where I think the person is going to like me.

I personally also have a hospitality/hostess gene, so I often will talk to people because I want them to feel comfortable and included in situations, and I'm with sacrificing a little of my own dignity and comfort if it will help someone get over the initial scary part of coming into an event or a social circle.

What if the outcome isn't what you'd desired? What are you mental processes in that case, post action. Do you even have an inner critic or were you just born with the ability to 'be in the moment' ?

There's an inner critic, for sure. Like, when I was in a new college just after transferring, I went to a dance at school that I was told was something people went to alone. It was not at all, and I spent the evening standing around by myself, trying to latch on to groups of people, but I didn't know anyone at the school very well, so that didn't go very well and made me feel very foolish, and I figured people probably only talked to me because they felt sorry for me. I ended up hitting on one of the caterer waiters, who ended up having to tell me straight out that he was gay. This was not one of my finer moments, and I still mentally cringe when I think about it. But looking back, I know that I was in a situation that was hard for me (being all alone at a party that was really meant for groups of friends right after I moved to a new city and didn't really know anyone), and that I did the best I could. So, I forgive myself. It's another story to put in my book.
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 8:16 PM on August 19, 2008 [7 favorites]

I want to second the stream of thought idea. I don't think I mull these 'decisions' over in exact language. The mind makes leaps. We feel our thoughts. Engage or don't engage -- is usually the vaguely-felt question and then we stumble confidently along.

especially when drunk and in a bar....
posted by punkbitch at 8:18 PM on August 19, 2008

Against my hatred of explaining a joke, so to say, I'm going to say that grobstein's comment seems very clearly satirical. Though satire is becoming harder and harder to tell from reality these days, so who knows. But, I mean, he's saying that extroverts are like robots who don't think like introverts do and that any comments in this thread expressing otherwise are only more lies by the evil extrovert empire perpetrated against poor nice introverts!
posted by Solon and Thanks at 8:21 PM on August 19, 2008 [1 favorite]

Hmm. When I am in social situations I don't really have an inner dialogue going - I'm too busy actually paying attention to what the other person is saying (and doing) and responding in a way to keep the conversational tennis going.
posted by needled at 8:22 PM on August 19, 2008

Extrovert here. Grobstein's either wrong or joking. I score off the charts for extroversion but also have a fairly consistent ongoing inner monologue. Also, believe it or not, extroverts can get nervous or socially anxious, too.

But here's the thing - while most introverts feel drained by interaction, extroverts are actually energized by it. For instance, I can be feeling sort of bummed out and lethargic, but a few hours talking to people leaves me energized and upbeat. So even if I'm nervous, there's a powerful incentive - that buzz - to motivate me.
posted by lunasol at 8:24 PM on August 19, 2008 [3 favorites]

I, too, am shy and suffer from social anxiety. However, my sensitivity and desire for people to feel welcome or comfortable has started to outweigh my own insecurities. I like how ThePinkSuperhero calls it "the hospitality/hostess gene"!

For example, this past weekend, I was at a social event with tons of people. This was the conversation in my mind: "Oh, there's so-and-so, standing by themselves... I know they just got back from a trip, so I will walk over and ask them how their trip was... [Insert Socialization Here]... Okay, that went well... There's someone I've never met before... They have a nice cell phone, I will go over and ask about their phone... [Insert Socialization Here]..."

So basically, scan room, identify target, plan something to discuss, make my move... Yes, it feels awkward, but I usually feel a great sense of accomplishment and pride when I can walk away from these interactions having made someone laugh, or given them a good book recommendation, whatever... (Of course, given a choice, I'd much rather stay home, far away from people!)

Good luck to you; I know you can do it!
posted by polyester.lumberjack at 8:28 PM on August 19, 2008 [3 favorites]

These introvert/extrovert titles are complete bullshit that are at best meaningless and at worst used to turn a social handicap in to a personality trait.

I have spent weeks without talking to anyone, months without more than a perfunctory engagement and been perfectly content. I've also been a pretty damn social person at times, the kind that will start conversations on the metro.

Anyway, when I'm really enjoying the company of others its very much a flow state. I'm don't have an internal monologue, as I would when deliberating on something in private, it's just bursts of connections being made. Someone mentions the homebrew computer club and I think about hewlett packard, or they mention nikola tesla and I think about mark twain. Things just branch off really quickly from whatever the line of conversation is, and a sort of mental tension builds and breaks as to when (and if) to interject or respond to what they're saying, whether to ask a question, make a statement, or joke about something.

When I'm bored, I'm generally just skimming your verbal stream for key words to make passable statements in response and thinking about how to extricate myself from the situation without offending you.

In my experience, people can't really tell.
posted by phrontist at 9:26 PM on August 19, 2008 [1 favorite]

I always considered myself geeky and introverted growing up in the US. Then I forced myself to move overseas, and now ten years later to my surprise I get labelled an "extrovert" quite a lot.

This won't work for all introverts, but I think the big key to getting over my shyness was being willing to play the "dumb American" card. Rather than worrying what someone was going to think of me, I'd just go up and ask my question or say hello or whatever (within the social norms, of course). I came to view it like going to a new restaurant or an amusement park. Why *wouldn't* I want to try out all the new experiences? Why should I hide in the corner instead of exploring and meeting people? So now my inner monologue in all these new situations is: "What's the worst that could happen?" That person doesn't like me? Sucks to be them!

With regards to your example... Well, I still have my limits. Approaching an attractive stranger would still be daunting, I think. (It's hard to envision it, actually; I've been with the same partner for 8+ years.) But I've been to meetups and gatherings where I didn't know people, and I've gone up and introduced myself without too much anxiety. (And trust me, Uburoivas can be an intimidating Mefite to approach!) Again, what's the worst that could happen? It's not like the whole room is going to point and laugh at you. People in the real world don't do that, not the ones worth associating with.

Nowadays I think back to how I was in college - hiding in the library on Friday nights rather than going out with the rest of my peers - and I regret how much time I wasted. I thought that extroverted people must lack some self-image anxiety gene that I was cursed with. Now I know that it's just that the benefits of approaching people far, far outweigh the risks.

(This whole thing applies to food too, oddly. I was such a picky eater growing up. Now I'm willing to try just about *everything*, and people who are picky annoy the crap out of me. It's not like you're going to DIE just from trying something new! But that's another issue...)
posted by web-goddess at 10:43 PM on August 19, 2008

I think grobstein and phrontist are on to something. In my extroverted moments, I don't have an inner dialogue, I just talk to people, in the same way that when driving my car, I don't consciously enumerate all the hazards and the road rules. At most I think "I'm going to talk to that person!" And then I do.

Interestingly in every field I know of, the ability to do things unconsciously and automatically in a state of flow is preceded by years of practise.
posted by i_am_joe's_spleen at 11:50 PM on August 19, 2008

I've been gradually becoming more extroverted after being shy for many years. While people have said for years they didn't think I was shy, I know in myself that I've become more confident at talking to people especially in social situations. The key is not overthinking as others have said. I recently went to a cocktail party, and a very well known member of my profession who I've wanted to meet for years was there. In the past, I would have agonised, "should I say hi, why would they talk to me" etc and not bothered. Now, I just marched right up to him and introduced myself.

It takes practice. It takes a few evenings where things don't go right. And others where you meet people shyer than you and you lead the conversation. And then all of a sudden you'll realise, you are that confident extrovert.
posted by wingless_angel at 2:20 AM on August 20, 2008

I often get accused of not having a "conscience" that prohibits me from doing and saying things and I don't really hear any inner-self or super-ego a lot of the time.

Things just seems to happen which is ok except for the times when people demand an explanation for something and I just go "Uh, I dont know"
posted by uandt at 3:05 AM on August 20, 2008

My friends often tell me that the lack of fear I have when it comes to social interaction is weird. This happens in situations that I consider to be perfectly normal. For example, I'm always the one who is sent to ask a question that is potentially embarassing, or to talk to a stranger who we wish to have join our group.

In those situations, the only filter that I apply to my actions is "Is this appropriate for the setting, and could it possibly cause great distress to someone?". If the answers are yes and no, I just go and do it. There's no inner dialogue where I try to convince myself that it's a good idea.

If I screw up, well, who cares? By answering the above question I've pretty much made sure that I wasn't going to be affecting anyone else negatively, apart from maybe some mild embarassement. That's honestly the only thing that matters. Nothing that happens to me during a social interaction can be so bad that I would try to avoid it at all cost. Generally I just laugh about it, and file the incident away, to be used as a potential data point in answering my filter-question.

I think that this thought process is something that you're born with, but that's not to say that you can't learn to imitate it if you want to become more extroverted. I can't really put myself in the shoes of an introverted person, but I imagine that the first step would be to have your inner dialogue mimic the rational explanation that I supplied above, which would slowly convince you that, really, there's never any harm in going to talk to someone.
posted by snoogles at 7:05 AM on August 20, 2008

I'm another one of these shy, anxious people who have been becoming much more socially assertive as time goes on. I tend to agree with many of the above posters that there really isn't a whole lot of internal dialogue when actually going through with being "extroverted." I still get a lot of self-doubt before doing things, though, but I've learned to snip off a lot of that by asking myself what I will regret doing more: being silent or saying hi/kissing the girl/asking the awkward question, etc? Almost always the answer is doing nothing, and that tends to move me beyond thinking about ways that things could go awry or how I'm being a bother.
posted by Schismatic at 7:47 AM on August 20, 2008

What inner monologue?

When I'm in party mode, I'm in party mode.

When I'm out of party mode, I'm gossiping.

When I'm not gossiping, I'm reading or thinking about parties.

I don't know what an inner monologue is, but it sounds annoying.
posted by sondrialiac at 8:25 AM on August 20, 2008

I just try to behave in a way I wouldn't be ashamed of if my father or grandfather witnessed it and try not to worry about what others are thinking about me (the truth is they probably aren't or won't be for long).
posted by Carbolic at 10:51 AM on August 20, 2008

I have social anxiety. I also consider myself to be extremely extroverted.

I can walk right up single good looking men. I ask for the discount. I ask a rude person, "Did I do something to you? Because you're being rude to me." I have gone out dancing when no one else wanted to go and danced by myself, the only person on the floor.

Name a social phobia and I feel like I have beaten it.

The trick for me was to replace that icky inner dialogue with one like this:

"I am making the world be a nicer place by opening up."
"I'm an awesome person, so why shouldn't I __________?"
"Other people feel anxiety, too."
"Don't be such a wimp."
"More people wish they could feel free to _________."

This was done through mental discipline and repetition. Feel negative thought, banish it immediately, replace with good thought.

Dancing by myself completely cured me of any shyness. Just realizing that I did something that not many people would ever do, just for me, because I wanted to. Now I'm bulletproof.
posted by Grlnxtdr at 10:53 AM on August 20, 2008 [3 favorites]

I'm an introvert, but I'm growing to be more of an extrovert by the year.

I used to feel drained by social interaction and now I usually feel energized if I take the time to do it. I can go to parties knowing almost no-one and leave knowing almost everyone, though I'm still too chicken to approach random attractive strangers from across the room outside of situations like parties where mingling is expected. It's that 'flow' people mentioned above... when I'm mingling, going from making one introduction to another, I usually don't think about it much. This is what wears introverts out, I think -- so much inner rationalization and deliberation that they rarely get to the stage where you DO talk to someone, and realize how good it feels, and suddenly the extroversion magic of feeling energized by socialization happens. I think that momentum is why it's easier for me to be more outgoing at a party or an event where I'm already having a great time with friends -- I'm already hyped up and it's easier to get the confidence when you're not starting cold turkey. If I am starting cold turkey? I use similar self-talk to "Grinxtdr". I realized at some point that everyone is anxious an insecure in their own way, and wants your approval as much as you want theirs. Confidence grows itself when you remember that.
posted by inactivist at 2:29 PM on August 20, 2008

The right way to say it might be that those who don't have the inner monologue are more confident. I've definitely lost mine, and most of what people are saying about "flow" rings true. However, I still get stressed in crowds even though I'm perfectly happy chatting with a total stranger, so 'extrovert' isn't the right word at all.

Mostly, the confidence came from good experiences. I know all the good conversations I've had with people, and how nice it is when I'm feeling lonely and someone walks up and starts an interesting conversation. So there are a lot of positive feelings associated with chatting with a stranger and trying to make them feel important. That's a thing that might help you: making it about them. I do think things when talking to someone, but it's more like "What can I ask next? Is there anything s/he seems interested in talking about?" rather than "What do I say now? Am I embarrassing myself? What is s/he thinking about me?"

Because of the good experiences, even when there are bad ones I'm usually able to think "Well, don't know why s/he was so upset, too bad." and let it go there. If someone thinks I'm weird for walking up to them and striking up a conversation without romantic interest, well, most of my best friends think I'm a bit strange too.
posted by Lady Li at 4:23 PM on August 20, 2008

"While most introverts feel drained by interaction, extroverts are actually energized by it - this is a big piece of it. And I think some people who are basically people-centric get stressed in some situations because they have a clear idea of what's at stake for them.

It seems to me that for outer directed people/extroverts/whatever you want to call them, being with and among other people is an engaging and exiting thing to do - they go for like a yellow Lab after a tennis ball. If you think of the socially easy as being like puppies who enjoy rolling around together, that might lesson your social anxiety.

For me, I do not have an inner dialogue or think much around people, which is one reason they wear me out. Talking to people and paying attention to them and feeling their brain rays is hard work. Probably going to end up with a tin-foil hat one day.

I'm speaking of healthy normal outgoing people. Not freaks who have a distorted, overblown mental image of themselves and almost unlimited energy to bully and manipulate others into at least appearing to buy into that lie.
posted by Lesser Shrew at 10:05 PM on August 20, 2008

extrovert/introvert. hm.
i guess i'm both depending on what's going on with me at the time.

when i want to talk to someone and i'm feeling shy/nervous/full of doubt i generally remind myself that one of two things is likely:

a) they want to meet someone new
b) they don't, and so nothing i say or do will make much difference anyway
posted by xz at 11:01 PM on August 20, 2008

I am a "created" extrovert. I've always been kind of a ham, but really enjoy my personal time as well. I only really become an extrovert when I find myself in a situation where being an extrovert will help me. I've always been good at being a conversationalist, but have always struggled a little with "starting" the conversation (which I believe is EVERYONE'S biggest hurdle).

In my head? I never (repeat: never) overthink the situation. Thinking about something too much simply allows you to create scenarios in your head of every good and bad situation that happens. The only thing I think about is whether I actually WANT to talk to them (like what others have said). I keep my mind blank, and make my way to their vicinity. From here, you can see if you're "invited" in to the conversation which I believe is the most important part. If I'm never invited, I probably won't try. Why talk to someone who doesn't want to talk to you? By getting "invited" they've allowed you to talk to them without actually saying so.. Such as connecting eyes, opening their talking circle, facing you, laughing to something you've said, or responding positively to something you've said.

I've NEVER bought someone a drink to get them to talk with me (I think that's cheating). And IF they stay and talk with you, it's because they feel bad for taking the drink and running and will grant you a couple minutes of talk time as a "thank you" but they are in the wrong frame of mind. One extrovert guy friend of mine likes to flip this old tactic on its head by getting girls to buy HIM drinks. He simply asks for them: "hey, wanna buy me a drink?" He never pays for his own... My guess is that this technique actually makes you intriguing. And girls will actually do it.

Now the part in my head:
My thinking is if I DON'T go talk to the person, I'm no better off than I currently am, so who cares? If I get rejected, who cares? One of my favorite quotes from Braveheart: "We've got to try... You know what happens if we don't take that chance? Nothing."

An aside to my long response:
In college, my close buddies and I wanted to get better at taking rejection or simply taking chances (which turned out positive WAY more than expected). So we'd call a "Test" on each other when we were out and about. The test was always a simple task like "Test. Find out that girl's name" or "Test. Does that person like to water ski." The person who called the test would only do it if they thought it was appropriate, and the other must do it. No questions asked. Worked like a charm, and now I have no problem talking with people.

Stop overthinking it. Stop it. Just go up and talk to the person, you'll be no worse off. And please, god, don't use a cheesy line. Just say hello. The more you try, the more the anxiety goes away, or you just get used to it...
posted by namewithhe1d at 1:49 PM on August 21, 2008

I read all the "how to work a room," "conquer anxiety" books... nothing helped. I went to a CBT... didn't help. Zoloft completely transformed my life.
posted by blahtsk at 9:21 PM on August 21, 2008