What is the Norwegian Dream?
August 8, 2008 11:54 AM Subscribe
Rather than go into the American Dream or the New American Dream, I would like to find out about the real or philosophical "...Dream" of other countries, like what is the New Dutch Dream and the Chinese Dream? Note: don't tell me about sagas! dreams only, please.
Response by poster: got rid of "manifest" and "destiny" tags to make the question more clear. Thanks for the input GuyZero!
posted by parmanparman at 12:27 PM on August 8, 2008
posted by parmanparman at 12:27 PM on August 8, 2008
The Israeli dream used to be "Both banks of the Jordan!" but this dream died in the 1920s (or for sure by the 1940s).
The Israeli dream from the 1940s through to the present is quite conflicted ... to be "A nation like all other nations" and also to be "A light unto the nations" (with its biblical overtones). They want to be respected ("just like every other country") but, in some ways, respected for being better than every other country.
posted by zpousman at 12:29 PM on August 8, 2008
The Israeli dream from the 1940s through to the present is quite conflicted ... to be "A nation like all other nations" and also to be "A light unto the nations" (with its biblical overtones). They want to be respected ("just like every other country") but, in some ways, respected for being better than every other country.
posted by zpousman at 12:29 PM on August 8, 2008
Well, I wouldn't guarantee that's it's an American-only thing as I am not by any stretch a historian. And I actually didn't notice that in the tags even. The New York Times said "The truth is, Asia is as certainly the theatre of a Russian manifest destiny, as is America for the people of the United States." but that was in 1858.
posted by GuyZero at 12:34 PM on August 8, 2008
posted by GuyZero at 12:34 PM on August 8, 2008
Response by poster: whoa! No sagas! We're not talking about Manifest Destiny here! I want to know about "[insert country's plural identity here] Dreams"! Example.
posted by parmanparman at 12:53 PM on August 8, 2008
posted by parmanparman at 12:53 PM on August 8, 2008
well, what is the american dream? i mean, i know "what" it is, but is it a mission statement, a set of goals, a guideline for government rule, etc.?
i think it's a set of ideals that is common amongst a majority of the citizens. so, what is a common chinese/japanese/canadian ideal?
at least that's how i'm looking at the question.
(also, i think the ideas of manifest destiny and the american dream are very wrapped up in each other.)
posted by misanthropicsarah at 1:11 PM on August 8, 2008
i think it's a set of ideals that is common amongst a majority of the citizens. so, what is a common chinese/japanese/canadian ideal?
at least that's how i'm looking at the question.
(also, i think the ideas of manifest destiny and the american dream are very wrapped up in each other.)
posted by misanthropicsarah at 1:11 PM on August 8, 2008
As an American, I always thought that "the American Dream" referred to the archetypal life-goal of individual citizens or immigrants - the dream of prosperity and a white picket fence, et cetera - not national objectives like Manifest Destiny.
From what I've read about China, since Deng Xiaoping's 1992 tour endorsing it individual prosperity has been something of a national dream there as well, to the tune of becoming extravagantly wealthy above and beyond what is characteristically described as the American dream.
posted by XMLicious at 1:33 PM on August 8, 2008
From what I've read about China, since Deng Xiaoping's 1992 tour endorsing it individual prosperity has been something of a national dream there as well, to the tune of becoming extravagantly wealthy above and beyond what is characteristically described as the American dream.
posted by XMLicious at 1:33 PM on August 8, 2008
to add, I think the "American Dream" as it is frequently articulated in your national consciousness is a common individual ambition of owning your home, having a loving spouse and one, if not two, adoring children -- and to achieve this goal regardless of your original life circumstances. If anything, the only Americans eligible of achieving "The American Dream" are those from lower or lower-middle class who aspire to middle class affluence ... and immigrants who may be middle class in their home countries, but most struggle against the challenges of assimilation to prosper in mainstream American society.
Now, middle-class affluence isn't unique to the US, but you won't find a Canadian or Indian articulating that as a common dream shared amongst the citizenry; if only because it's so common.
As far as common aspirations that might lie outside the typical US model ... some cultures value family structures and folks might aspire to being a respected elder. Lifetime security is based a little less on owning your own property and amassing individual wealth as it is having progeny who will revere and support you in your elder years.
The stereotype of the Japanese salaryman is based on a commonly shared aspiration of becoming great by helping your employer become great, and thereby helping your nation become great. It is a dream that is not uncommon to some individuals in the US but it never fully displaced the rugged individualism that still seems to form the foundation of the common American Dream.
posted by bl1nk at 1:48 PM on August 8, 2008
Now, middle-class affluence isn't unique to the US, but you won't find a Canadian or Indian articulating that as a common dream shared amongst the citizenry; if only because it's so common.
As far as common aspirations that might lie outside the typical US model ... some cultures value family structures and folks might aspire to being a respected elder. Lifetime security is based a little less on owning your own property and amassing individual wealth as it is having progeny who will revere and support you in your elder years.
The stereotype of the Japanese salaryman is based on a commonly shared aspiration of becoming great by helping your employer become great, and thereby helping your nation become great. It is a dream that is not uncommon to some individuals in the US but it never fully displaced the rugged individualism that still seems to form the foundation of the common American Dream.
posted by bl1nk at 1:48 PM on August 8, 2008
bl1nk, you're missing a crucial piece of the AD-- it's not just material prosperity, or ownership, but prosperity and ownership on one's own terms, regardless of the circumstances of your birth, and without anyone (specifically The Man, or the government) telling you what to do and how to do it. We're not quite as shallow and materialistic as the world likes to think we are (almost, but not quite).
OP, sorry for the derail. Your topic is interesting, but I'm not sure you're going to get it answered, since we all keep going off like this!
posted by nax at 2:01 PM on August 8, 2008 [1 favorite]
OP, sorry for the derail. Your topic is interesting, but I'm not sure you're going to get it answered, since we all keep going off like this!
posted by nax at 2:01 PM on August 8, 2008 [1 favorite]
OK, I gotta jump in here to say that equating the American Dream to owning your own home represents a dumbing-down of said Dream. People don't risk their lives crossing oceans in rubber boats to buy a house.
The (real) American Dream is this: that you can achieve whatever you decide to do, through industriousness and a (used-to-be) free market. Maybe that is owning a home but it certainly isn't limited to that.
The freedom and opportunity to strive for your own goals, that is what people risk their lives for.
It is also what is terribly under-appreciate by those who are raised with it.
posted by trinity8-director at 2:08 PM on August 8, 2008
The (real) American Dream is this: that you can achieve whatever you decide to do, through industriousness and a (used-to-be) free market. Maybe that is owning a home but it certainly isn't limited to that.
The freedom and opportunity to strive for your own goals, that is what people risk their lives for.
It is also what is terribly under-appreciate by those who are raised with it.
posted by trinity8-director at 2:08 PM on August 8, 2008
Back on topic, I have not run across an equivalent in my studies or travels. Although I once heard said that the entirety of British history can be described as the struggle to avoid embarrassment. Is that the same thing?
posted by trinity8-director at 2:10 PM on August 8, 2008
posted by trinity8-director at 2:10 PM on August 8, 2008
Also, this same question was asked in 2006. It's actually the first google hit for the phrase "french dream". Which I was googleing... From Newsweek:
"There is an 'American dream,' but there is no longer a 'French dream.' Young people want to go to America, Canada, the United Kingdom, Australia."
French people feel free to dispute your President here.
posted by GuyZero at 2:23 PM on August 8, 2008
"There is an 'American dream,' but there is no longer a 'French dream.' Young people want to go to America, Canada, the United Kingdom, Australia."
French people feel free to dispute your President here.
posted by GuyZero at 2:23 PM on August 8, 2008
We spent a day asking people "what is your dream" in a train station
in João Pessoa, Paraiba state, Brazil.
Their answers are here.
posted by ig at 2:28 PM on August 8, 2008 [1 favorite]
in João Pessoa, Paraiba state, Brazil.
Their answers are here.
posted by ig at 2:28 PM on August 8, 2008 [1 favorite]
Does Japan's Three Sacred Treasures count?
(a.k.a. washing machine, television, and refrigerator)
posted by ntartifex at 4:49 PM on August 8, 2008
(a.k.a. washing machine, television, and refrigerator)
posted by ntartifex at 4:49 PM on August 8, 2008
I'd say the Australian Dream, at least when such a thing originated, was to own a quarter acre block, a house with a verandah, a Hills Hoist out the back, and probably a Holden in the driveway. Perhaps this rather modest dream (just a house? Really?) came about from the convict days, or during one of the huge influxes of immigrants, when most people didn't own homes.
Still, I'd say it's a bit dated. Not only do houses cost far more than ever before, but I don't think my generation (mid 20s) really has the same single aspiration towards home ownership as our parents and grandparents did.
posted by twirlypen at 5:14 PM on August 8, 2008
Still, I'd say it's a bit dated. Not only do houses cost far more than ever before, but I don't think my generation (mid 20s) really has the same single aspiration towards home ownership as our parents and grandparents did.
posted by twirlypen at 5:14 PM on August 8, 2008
Singapore has the 5Cs - Credit Card, Condo, Car, Cash, and Country Club membership.
For Malaysia it would be straight As in exams, a top job as a doctor or lawyer, a Dato'ship (honourary title), a big car like a Merc, and an entry in the Book of Records. Why'd you think Malaysia has its own?
posted by divabat at 11:52 PM on August 8, 2008
For Malaysia it would be straight As in exams, a top job as a doctor or lawyer, a Dato'ship (honourary title), a big car like a Merc, and an entry in the Book of Records. Why'd you think Malaysia has its own?
posted by divabat at 11:52 PM on August 8, 2008
I think the US "American Dream" concept is just part of the propaganda that you're taught as kids, part of the whole hand-on-heart Pledge of Allegiance God-bless-America greatest-country-in-the-world stuff. Quite truthfully we're just not... indoctrinated that way in Canada. We're not all expected or told to feel the same way about Canada. We're not expected to have a particular level of patriotism and whatever it may be no one defines it for us. We more or less like the flag or at least feel some regard for it but don't hold it up as an unassailable symbol of our identity. We're multicultural, not a melting pot.
trinity8-director said: "OK, I gotta jump in here to say that equating the American Dream to owning your own home represents a dumbing-down of said Dream.
I think you're referring to the statement about the Australian dream made above -- speed-reading perhaps?
The freedom and opportunity to strive for your own goals, that is what people risk their lives for.
It is also what is terribly under-appreciate by those who are raised with it. "
Perhaps because it's not as rare or unique to the US as many Americans like to believe it is.
posted by loiseau at 12:15 AM on August 9, 2008
trinity8-director said: "OK, I gotta jump in here to say that equating the American Dream to owning your own home represents a dumbing-down of said Dream.
I think you're referring to the statement about the Australian dream made above -- speed-reading perhaps?
The freedom and opportunity to strive for your own goals, that is what people risk their lives for.
It is also what is terribly under-appreciate by those who are raised with it. "
Perhaps because it's not as rare or unique to the US as many Americans like to believe it is.
posted by loiseau at 12:15 AM on August 9, 2008
Response by poster: Divabat: What is the Book of Records and what is Dato?
posted by parmanparman at 5:36 AM on August 9, 2008
posted by parmanparman at 5:36 AM on August 9, 2008
parmanparman: "Dato" is a title, much like Lord or Lady, or Sir XYZ in England. There's a series of them and you get bestowed with them by your state's King or the Agung (King of the country, basically) for services to the country. Sometimes the "services" can be rather dubious though.
The Malaysian Book of Records is a takeoff of the Guinness Book of World Records. They weren't satisfied with trying to make the world book so they made their own!
posted by divabat at 7:50 PM on August 9, 2008
The Malaysian Book of Records is a takeoff of the Guinness Book of World Records. They weren't satisfied with trying to make the world book so they made their own!
posted by divabat at 7:50 PM on August 9, 2008
This thread is closed to new comments.
At any rate, the "Canadian Dream"... hm. Peace, order and good government? Canadians have "values" and an "image" internationally that we like to protect but to my knowledge there's no aspirational discourse around dreams.
From The Atlantic Magazine, quoting itself from 1923:
"Compared to that virile personage, Uncle Sam, he is simply 'not there,' for no one ever needed a label on Uncle Sam."
The now-quite-old joke is that there was a contest to complete the sentence "As Canadian as..." The obvious analog is "As American as apple pie". The winner was "As Canadian as... possible under the circumstances".
posted by GuyZero at 12:12 PM on August 8, 2008 [2 favorites]