What good is a friend if it doesn't feel friendly?

April 4, 2008 2:49 PM

Do I have wrongheaded notions about friendships with girls? Or this friendship? I seem to be bad at friendships, particularly with girls. My friend Jane however has stuck around for quite a few years. Problem is, I'm starting to suspect she's not a very good friend. But, there's a chance I'm just not accustomed to the social ways of the girl friendship or I'm the one who's the terrible friend. Perhaps the hive mind can help me decide.

I'm a girl in my late 30s. My whole life I've been bad at creating close friendships. I'm good at the amusing people part, but that's a draining experience if I have to do it regularly.

I prefer to hang out with one person or a small group of people I know well and I like friendships which go in fits and spurts, rather than a steady stream.

I will adapt to other styles if prompted, but I'm not going to seek out huge groups of small-talk friendships on my own. Since kindergarten, most of my friends have been guys. So the things I'm into, my sense of humor and my expectations for friendship are more in the 12-year-old boy realm, rather than the 35-year-old housewife, which makes new friends from, say, the PTA a difficult challenge.

Jane is somewhat the exception to all my other friends. We became closer friends years ago when she was going through a tough time. She has been persistent in dragging me out of my shell, taking me to parties, going shopping, the whole works. I have often had fun with Jane over the years in girlie ways. She was the only one who was truly there for me when I went through a bad breakup, and got me to get out of the house and stop feeling sorry for myself during that time.

But Jane is a social butterfly. It seems she's always multitasking friends - getting as many of them together as possible to meet some sense of obligation. I accept these group invitations often. I've found when I don't, she somewhat pesters me, saying she hasn't seen me, when are we getting together, etc.

I've come out and said, "When are we going to hang out, just the two of us?" To which she wanted to plan dinner, a day out, etc. But the last few times we've gone out, I've been surprised by other people, people I've never met or only met once at one of her parties, being there. As in, at a dinner she invited me to, offering to pay, but then invited five other people (and didn't pay).

Over the years, Jane has become more insecure and I see a lot of this coming from that - the need to have lots of people around, gossiping about people mercilessly (which makes me wonder what she says about me), a focus on the things we don't have in common (dieting, fashion, exercise, her hypochondria that has her on different treatment programs and medications depending on what she's been diagnosed with this week [although from my experience with people with disorders, she seems to be fairly together, if insecure]). It's become almost painful to hang out with her. She's an ongoing self improvement project and either she's discussing that or talking about what's wrong with me (fashion, weight, health, etc.) She seems to have taken more of a pity-like response to me lately, as if she's the prom queen and I'm a project to be worked on.

Complicating matters is my partner doesn't like Jane. Every time I complain about her (which honestly is becoming more frequent) this is evidence to him that I should DTMFA. I can't bring him over to hang out with Jane and her husband (despite Jane's husband being a tremendous sweetheart and someone my husband and I would both consider a friend). He threatened to confront Jane's husband before they got married to tell him what a bad idea it was. Hating Jane has become a hobby of sorts for him.

As I am very susceptible to other people's moods and judgments (thus the AskMe), I'm worried that his negative opinion is clouding my judgment. Or that Jane's enthusiasm and "need" to be my friend is clouding it the other way.

It could be that I'm jealous or hurt, as she doesn't seem to have a high barrier to entry on her friendships, so people she's just met become just as important to her as I am. Getting over this may do me good.

Maybe I'm the one being a bad friend, wanting social engagements one-on-one when I know she's a busy girl with a new husband and a huge social network. I am not good at making or maintaining friendships. Perhaps I am learning something by remaining to be Jane's friend.

The fact that she's honestly my only female friend, perhaps this is one of those Mars/Venus things that will make me a better human being if I learn to tackle.

I don't have a lot of friendships at all, so I'm worried that I'd be lonely, feel like a loser, etc. if she were out of my life. Especially if my criteria for friendship is weird/selfish or wrong. And especially since friendships with boys are either problematic (from the flirtation angle) or I still need to develop friendships with their wives/girlfriends.

I like to think of myself as someone who doesn't ditch friends. I've only let friendships fade away, and when they call me, I'm there to help, even if we haven't talked in years. But she's persistent enough that I can't just let this fade. I don't want to be on bad terms with her, I don't even mind hanging out with her. I'd be sad if I lost touch with her completely.

But after a very emphatic invitation to a just-her-and-me thing that turned into another group bait-and-switch, it's like she's almost trying to piss me off.

Yes, I have had therapy and I am not assertive enough (working on it). Yes, I've gone to meet ups and joked with people, but I'm not good at taking that to friendship level.

So, impartial jury, what am I missing? What the heck do I do?

posted by anonymous to human relations (15 comments total)

It sounds to me like you're friends with Jane because you're fearful of what it would be like to not have her as a friend... wait no, to not have *a* friend. It's not about her, whether she's a good friend or not, this is a question about you and your fear of not being good enough to deserve a close, supportive, loving friend.

You want a friend that supports and loves you, lifts you up when you're down and cheers you on when you're up. When you can own what you want, feel like you absolutely deserve it, and hold out for it, you're going to look at the friendship with Jane in a much different light. Get beyond your fear of possible loneliness and own the fact that you want something more... it has nothing to do with your partner's feelings.

Perhaps you need to lessen Jane's importance in your life and find other friends who more closely match who you really are. If it's painful to hang out with her, why are you lamenting that you're not hanging out with her enough?

Maybe you're not good at maintaining friendships as compared to other people, but perhaps you are pegging yourself as not good and that belief is getting in the way of finding the person (or people) that fits you and your world as a good friend... stop trying to fit into what you think you're supposed to be and just be who you are.

You'll start finding other people who are more like you, who get you, and you'll be less stressed out by relating to people. You might have to change, but it's more like changing into more of who you really are and letting that out instead of changing into something you're not and beating yourself up because it doesn't feel natural.
posted by kat at 3:28 PM on April 4 [1 favorite]

I think if you still want to maintain a friendship with Jane, and it sounds like you do to an extent, then YOU need to be the one making the plans. That way, you're the one in control and you can invite or not invite whomever you want. You don't like being surprised by showing up to a one-on-one dinner with Jane and having a crew of Jane's other friends. If that's the case, then you make the plans. YOU inviter HER out to dinner. YOU invite HER out shopping. This gives you some control of the situation AND it allows you to reach out and do your part in maintaining the friendship - there's no reason why Jane should be the doing all the legwork to keep your friendship going. And it must be frustrating for her when she does make plans an includes you you show up and are put out because it wasn't what you wanted.
posted by Sassyfras at 3:29 PM on April 4 [4 favorites]

You don't seem to enjoy spending time with her much. Leave her behind, and move on. Life is too short to have people in your life that you don't really like all that much.
posted by Solomon at 3:29 PM on April 4

What good is a friend if it doesn't feel friendly?

That seems to be your basic question. My summary of your points here is

- Jnae used to be a good friend to you
- Jane doesn't hang out with you one on one though you would prefer this
- Jane is not much fun to hang around with lately
- Jane is not nice to you
- You and Jane do not share many interests lately
- Your husband dislikes Jane and won't do couple things with Jane and her spouse

While I think it's easy to say "WTF RUN" I do sympathize with the "but then I'll have no female friends at all!" problem. I know it's tempting to think you fail at friendship because you can't maintain a friendship with a woman. That said, Jane doesn't seem like someone you currently want to spend time with. Her invitations to you seem to stem more from her need for constant companionship and less from wanting to maintain a reciprocal friendship with you. It's totaly okay to hold out for reciprocal friendship.

I'd do this, if you're working on assertiveness. Either you do the inviting [just her and you, no extra people allowed or invited, I'm unclear if you've been doing this] or the next time she does the inviting be clear: "You know Jane, I don't enjoy these group outings the way you do. If we're not going to just sit and chitchat, I'll take a rain check" She can't both nag you to hang out with her and also set the terms of the hanging out to ones you don't want. Or, rather, she can, but for your part you're totally within bounds to walk right out the way you came in. It can be hard to be assertive in the face of someone who also seems needy and sad and insecure, but I think you are framing this like you did something wrong, or Jane did something wrong. It just seems to me like the two of you don't click and your inclination is to back off (which would be mine as well) and hers is to make a half-hearted effort out of reflex and not engage you at your level.

I'd say Jane is not being a very good friend to you. You don't have to ditch her, you can just make that clear without being hurtful. "No thanks, but how would you like to come out with me at some later date and do X?" If she bails that's her, not you.
posted by jessamyn at 3:37 PM on April 4

Just from what you've written in your question, unless you've omitted a major dynamic (accidentally, not deliberately), I can easily see how an important friendship in your life could have gone so badly South. You mention that a) you suspect she sees you as an improvement project, and that she feels sorry for you, and b) that she tends to co-opt social plans between the two of you quite a lot and turn them into big gatherings of the kind that you don't like. I'm guessing the two go hand in hand. Have you given her reason in past interactions to think that you're a bit of a passive person, maybe someone who needs help coming out of her shell? Do you tend to make (or let) her take the initiative in organizing get-togethers, simply out of habit? That could be key. If the burden of event planning has fallen on her for a while, it's going to gravitate towards her interests, particularly if she thinks your participating in those kinds of events will be good for you. So, the best way to salvage this dynamic is to (gently) start taking the initiative. Take her out to lunch. Go on outings together, and set it up so that it would be very awkward for her to invite guests along.

This does take an investment of time and willingness for the friendship to be awkward for a bit while both parties come to terms with the new dynamic - if you're willing to give it a try, go for it! If it, it may be time for the friendship to end. Personally, the way I figure it, this is not a destructive friendship, merely a stalled one, and you've got nothing to lose by giving it a shot.
posted by bettafish at 4:15 PM on April 4 [3 favorites]

**so sorry for all the typos in my post above . . . it's Friday. My brain is fried. **
posted by Sassyfras at 4:19 PM on April 4

i think you answered your own question: jane's the only friend you got. your solution, probably, is to find other friends. you don't have to dump her or break up with her, just seek out other friends. you're frustrated because jane isn't the kind of friend you want her to be. that's where the other friends come in--you can take jane on her terms, and have other women in your life to satisfy the other friendship needs you have that she can't.

as for making other friends...well, there are a lot of threads on askme about that. but i would encourage you to do that.
posted by thinkingwoman at 4:39 PM on April 4

Are you getting anything out of the friendship with Jane?

I ask, because I was in a very similar situation a few years ago. I'm around your age too, and agree that it can really be hard to find cool female friends. I clung to this one friendship, because I didn't have any other female friends in town and didn't want to be stuck high and dry if I really needed a friend someday. Increasingly, this friend behaved in a way that annoyed me and I'd come home after hanging out with her feeling really grumpy.

It's a long story, but my friendship with my one female friend in town ended badly and I found myself without any girlfriends living within an 8 hour drive. I realized I'd have to change my lifestyle in order to make new friends. I signed up for a few grad level classes, took a knitting class, and started volunteering. I also started going to hang out more with my husband's friends and co-workers and their girlfriends, wives and partners. I started making plans with gals from work to do stuff on the weekends or after work, for example: go to a local greenhouse and buy some seedlings for our gardens, go to see a movie, meet up at a local coffee house and knit/craft for an hour or so one morning a week, exercise, or go to garage sales. My husband and I started inviting people over to our house more to hang out.

In order to make new friends, you will have to start playing the "cruise director" role and make plans and ask people to come hang out. You can also take charge of your friendship with Jane. Ask her to come do stuff with you. Stand up for yourself when she is critical of you or treats you like her "project." It is really invigorating to speak your mind...once you start, you may not be able to stop.

There are tons of interesting, intelligent, non-soccer mom types of over 30 who would love to have a new pal to hang out with, you'll just have to do a little bit of work to find us!
posted by pluckysparrow at 7:48 PM on April 4 [2 favorites]

It sounds like the peak of your friendship (one-on-one while she mourned her breakup) was not Jane's usual style. When she's feeling chipper, she wants lots of people around. Maybe she only does one-on-one when she's low.

Another idea, which only you can judge: maybe she is bored with you alone (or anyone alone). Is it lively and stimulating when it's just you two? This sounds like what she is after.
posted by Riverine at 8:22 PM on April 4

take a break from her. take a month or so on your own, politely turn down things, and see how you feel.
posted by edtut at 9:07 PM on April 4

History is a tough thing to ditch. I had a "bad" friend for a long, long time, and it turned into a real passive-aggressive disaster in the end. It's partly an investment thing, just like any relationship, and you've obviously invested a lot of time and effort in this one. But having many friends and not investing so heavily in any one will help you know when a friend is drifting and when maybe their place is no longer so centrally in your life. That's sad, and hard to accept -- all the moreso if you haven't been making other friends who are nearly so close, or just acquaintances. But in the end, you need people around you who make you feel good -- about yourself, them, life. It's that simple. Letting go is part of honouring the better times you had together rather than letting it all get dragged into the mud in later days. I second the recommendation to take a break, but while you're doing it, make plans with some other people. Try starting up a few conversations on a deeper level with anyone you've thought was interesting and would like to get to know better. Adult friendships are tough to start because everyone is so busy and often already has their quota, but the rarity is partly what makes a friendship so special. Get yourself out there.
posted by Durn Bronzefist at 10:25 PM on April 4 [2 favorites]

Sounds to me like you're an introvert and she's an extrovert. Try reading up on those friendship dynamics so see if you think they kind of fit. Maybe you could just take a break for a while. I also think you should tell her you don't enjoy the group thing and that you'd rather not do it.

But friendships end and there's no crime in that. Whatever happens possum, good luck.
posted by taff at 2:35 AM on April 5

I agree with taff. Introverts have a different chemistry regarding relationships and socializing than do extroverts. There's a basic incompatibility there but introverts need social support and friendships just as strongly as extroverts, only they aren't as able to handle high demands in that area.

Seems to me like it's a natural strategy for an introvert to team up with an extrovert in order to 'get out of the house'. Plus an introvert is perhaps grounding and calming for an extrovert.
posted by diode at 8:03 AM on April 5

Arrgh! I can't begin to tell you how much I can relate to this question. I, too, used to have a friend who was exactly like how you describe Jane, only she wasn't married. I, too, find that cool female pals are an extremely rare commodity and meanwhile get along okay to great with just about every guy I know. But then it's hard to have guy friends when you're married as society tends to look askance at you hanging out with a guy who is not your husband solo. (I've actually considered writing a book about this phenomenon of girls who don't fit in with other girls and have some theories on it--I think a lot of women who grew up with only brothers and/or had a particularly strong father-influence or whose mothers weren't traditionally feminine have this problem).

Anyway, to answer your question...I would suggest taking a break from Jane. You don't have to cut her off entirely but just decline her next few group invitations. Inviting her out one-on-one may be an option but in my experience with my Jane-like friend she would always call somebody else to join us halfway through our "date" and then I'd feel like an ass if I objected.

I think pluckysparrow's advice is really good. I'm trying to do something similar myself right now. I also suggest the Succeed Socially for advice on making and keeping friends in general. I've found that other women who have the same propensities are often good prospects for friendship (let me know if you live in Chicago!).
posted by Jess the Mess at 12:41 PM on April 5

I have to agree with you feeling 'bad at girl friendships', because I feel that way too. I work/study in a very male dominated field, which only emphasizes the fact.

I had to laugh at you writing that your expectations were in the 12 year old boy realm, because it is so very true. I have few close female friends, and to be perfectly honest, they also have few female friends. What makes our friendships work are those same expectations, and not following the 'Jane style' of friendship. What I am trying to say here is that there are other women who approach friendship, and what that commitment means, in the same way you do. You are not wrong or have silly notions, you are just a different person than Jane. You can have that female companionship without the girly stereotype that goes with it. There are always the people who want to drag you out with a big group of strangers, and that can be good fun once and a while, but not every woman thinks that way.

So the question now is, how do you go about finding these like-minded girls? First, branch out. The PTA might be just too small a pool of people to work with. Finding other groups to work from, based on a hobby, physical activity, or even just an internet forum might help. As an example, I've had pretty good success in finding good female companions through fencing, ballroom dance (which I do with my husband), and school (which, as a computer scientist, is an unfair advantage, as most other female computer scientists I have met are pretty easy to get along with).

The other thing to note is don't limit yourself by an age. I have met some great women both considerably older and younger than me. Although it can be difficult to relate to someone not within a certain age range, it can be a good way to open up your pool of friends, especially considering you seem disappointed in not having more people you can call friends at the moment. And finally, don't worry too much about male friends. I admit, it is far easier if they are in a committed relationship with someone, and that their significant other is also a friend of yours, but it is not impossible to have single male friends who are just friends.
posted by billy_the_punk at 12:58 PM on April 5