broken jerk detector?

September 12, 2007 7:17 AM

Help me fix my jerk detector.

Admins: if this is considered chatfilter, please feel free to delete.

I've been single for about six years. I've had two long-term relationships in my life, and a slew of first dates that never went further (I'm on OKCupid). In a fit of self-searching and review, I'm beginning to wonder if I'm unable to differentiate the decent guys from the jerks, or whether there is something inherently wrong with the way I'm doing things.

The guys I usually fall for (including both LTRs) seem like nice, decent guys when I meet them (I should mention that I'm usually attracted to geeks). Smart, funny, interested in similar things as me, holding down a good job, etc. To anybody looking in from the outside, they seem like a good choice. Behind closed doors, however, they turn into selfish, controlling arseholes who seem to want a girlfriend to satisfy whatever their wants might be whenever they want it, then remain silent and unobtrusive arm-candy the rest of the time. LTR #2 actually forbid me from showing any affection to him while his friends were around, and forbid me from talking to his friends.

I believe that relationships are supposed to be two way streets. I offer to either "go dutch" or alternate picking up the tab when I go out with someone, I make an effort to find out what the guy is interested in so I can have a conversation with him about it, I make an almighty effort to switch off my judgement of a person based on looks alone. I've never considered myself to be a shrinking violet, but maybe I am?

Hive Mind, what are some good strategies for weeding out these wolves in sheep's clothing? Or alternately, what are some things I could do differently to prevent this kind of thing from happening?

Self-disclosure: I don't consider myself arm-candy, either. I'm certainly not what you'd call a "conventional" arm-candy girl; I'm serious, shy in crowds, way too smart for my own good, not afraid to plunge headlong into a serious discussion about something. Friends tell me I come across as "dignified".

posted by LN to human relations (43 comments total)

Interesting question. I don't really have an answer, but I do think that even nice well meaning people can overstep their bounds with someone who isn't assertive enough. I may too often see power conflicts in relationship problems, but but being power and assertion equal to your partner may balance things or weed out the jerks sooner. /speculation, ymmv
posted by DarkForest at 7:43 AM on September 12, 2007 [1 favorite has favorites]

I always related on the first date what my deal breakers were--it would scare off scaredy-cats and those who fell into my no-way range. Sure, it took a lot more dates, but I've found the one I'm marrying and there are no doubts about where we stand relationship-wise. You just have to keep dating and dating and finding one loser after another until you find the one who works best for you. C'est la vie.

Also, did you communicate your concerns to these jerks when you were dating them, or did you straight-up dump them? You didn't explain how you dealt with them. Nobody is perfect, and I'm not saying that you should put up with a guy so controlling that he's borderline abusive, but just talking to him about why he's being a jerk goes a long way into either hastening the breakup or understanding him a little bit better.
posted by sian at 7:44 AM on September 12, 2007

Unfortunately, a lot of people will behave as badly as they think they can get away with. It's up to you to set your boundaries, early, and as often as necessary. Be prepared to bail if that doesn't work.

I've known many strong, smart women who've let men take advantage of them. The abuse escalates over time, so they are the proverbial frog in the stock pot.

To avoid that, you have to really be in touch with your self. Don't put up with anything that doesn't sit right with you. If you let these sorts of terms be set by your partner, you are declaring yourself fair game for manipulation or worse.

This may sound harsh, but it's true, and it has nothing to do with either party being eye-candy or anything else.

What to do now? Befriend yourself. Make a list of your ideal partner. Look for decency from the beginning. After that, demand equality if it ever looks like it might be an issue. Good luck.
posted by pammo at 7:48 AM on September 12, 2007 [1 favorite has favorites]

I think you're overthinking this.

Look, you say that you've had relationships with guys who later turn out to be selfish, etc. but your sample size for long term relationships is 2. Honey, I think it's probably a bit premature to go down the "what's wrong with my filters?" pathway.

You date online, and in this day and age, that's perfectly reasonable. But what you need to understand is that you're effectively casting a wide net and will end up on lots of first dates that go nowhere. You can look at that as a plus or a minus. It's up to you. But your experience is far from unique or unusual.

Keep looking for smart, funny geeks. Perhaps experiment with people that don't fit that mold if you're feeling like your dating is too routine. My suspicion is that you're probably doing the right things and your filters are fine. Maybe be a bit more assertive and cut off anyone's efforts to walk all over you early. Setting precedents that way can prevent things from getting ugly.
posted by drpynchon at 7:48 AM on September 12, 2007 [1 favorite has favorites]

I'm also a shy person and I tend to date geeky guys too. They almost always have been as nice as they seem. The few exceptions have had a couple things in common: subscribing to rigid evo-psych gender theories, pointing out how fat other women are, believing that men and women can't just be friends.

Of course I want to think that people who have political opinions similar to mine are nicer people, but I know that this is generally not the case. But in this respect I've found it to be true: men who don't seem to view women as equals really don't treat me as an equal!
posted by transona5 at 7:49 AM on September 12, 2007 [2 favorites has favorites]

Behind closed doors, however, they turn into selfish, controlling arseholes who seem to want a girlfriend to satisfy whatever their wants might be whenever they want it, then remain silent and unobtrusive arm-candy the rest of the time. LTR #2 actually forbid me from showing any affection to him while his friends were around, and forbid me from talking to his friends.

This is exactly the experience my girlfriend had ... ahem, before she met me. The first guy was just plain immature, and the second guy she had an LTR with idolized his mommy and wanted his girlfriend to be his mommy... including (creepy!) wearing the same perfume she wore! (CREEPY!)

I guess this is the pain of dating. You have to kiss a lot of frogs before you find a prince. Geeks tend to be good at keeping their warts and green greasy skin below the surface... natural camoflauge from surviving years in grade school. I think you need to just keep dating around a bit more... it's more about finding someone whose issues you can stand than it is finding someone who has no issues.
posted by SpecialK at 7:53 AM on September 12, 2007 [1 favorite has favorites]

Maybe you need a new way to meet guys.

The most successful relationships I've seen are friends introducing friends to friends. There is a little bit more of a jerk-filter...
posted by k8t at 7:58 AM on September 12, 2007

Good point. I met my girlfriend at the dog park. All the girls I met online were ... odd.
posted by SpecialK at 7:59 AM on September 12, 2007

To anybody looking in from the outside, they seem like a good choice. Behind closed doors, however, they turn into selfish, controlling arseholes who seem to want a girlfriend to satisfy whatever their wants might be whenever they want it, then remain silent and unobtrusive arm-candy the rest of the time.
posted by 23skidoo at 8:04 AM on September 12, 2007

On the other hand, I met my wife online, and a lot of the women I met through the "normal" methods were... well, not for me. Generalizations about online/offline are silly.

As for the question, I agree with drpynchon. Don't generalize from a sample of two, keep trying, be more alert and bail out early if the guy starts acting weird. And good luck!
posted by languagehat at 8:05 AM on September 12, 2007

Oops.

To anybody looking in from the outside, they seem like a good choice. Behind closed doors, however, they turn into selfish, controlling arseholes who seem to want a girlfriend to satisfy whatever their wants might be whenever they want it, then remain silent and unobtrusive arm-candy the rest of the time.

1) Everyone starts out dating by being an idealized version of themselves. There's nothing wrong with you for not being able to see the wolf under the sheepskin, because everyone is underneath a sheepskin.

2) I think your solution is not "fix my jerk-dar" but rather "formalize the list of shit up with which I will not put". If not being able to talk to certain people is bullshit, then you should call bullshit on that, instead of having a longterm relationship with that dude.
posted by 23skidoo at 8:07 AM on September 12, 2007

Perhaps it's not the jerk-filter itself, but how quickly you let yourself trust it. In my case, I realized one day that I had better instincts than I'd given myself credit for, but I never stopped to pay attention to them; meanwhile, I was too worried about the impression I was making to assert (even to myself) what I needed.

You clearly have the ability to see these guys' negative traits. How soon do you notice red flags? Do you shrug those flags off or instantly incorporate them into your perception of the jerks?

Pay close attention to your reactions and instincts, and then follow above advice re: casting a wider net and being more assertive if you see problems.
posted by bassjump at 8:24 AM on September 12, 2007

How long are you staying in these relationships? Perhaps the problem is that you stay with men that you should dump.

If you're staying with a jerk, then you aren't out meeting the wonderful men that are available.
posted by 26.2 at 8:45 AM on September 12, 2007

Like someone else wrote your sample size is small and on top of it youre going strictly for geeks. Well, there are two kinds of geeks in my experience. The first kind is a geniune smart person whose smartiness has the side-effect of making them somewhat socially awkward. The second kind is someone who, for the lack of a better term, has problems (emtional, mental, whatever) which cause social awkwardness and also take on the pose of a geek. They aren't very smart or clever but might like computers and technology because they are anti-social hobbies for the most part. In my experience 70% of geeky people are the latter type and it sounds like your two ex's fall into this category. Its no surprise that below the surface theyre pretty lousy people too.

That leaves you two options: keep dating geeks and hope for the best or stop dating geeks and see what other types of people have to offer you.
posted by damn dirty ape at 8:52 AM on September 12, 2007 [7 favorites has favorites]

Geeks are just as likely to be jerks as anyone else. Just because you're an introvert and are good at math doesn't mean you're not a dick.
posted by electroboy at 8:54 AM on September 12, 2007 [6 favorites has favorites]

In addition to the real world, there's also a broader universe online -- OKCupid appeals to a subset, whereas Match.com is as big as all outdoors, and eHarmony seems to have a great hit rate even for people who ideologically object to it...
posted by MattD at 8:55 AM on September 12, 2007

It sounds as if you got "behind closed doors," you saw that the guys were no good, and then for unknown reasons you didn't dump them. Was there a protracted delay before you and they got "behind closed doors" that led you to feel committed to stay with them? It sounds as if the problem is not your selection process, but instead it's your lack of any de-selection process.
posted by JimN2TAW at 8:56 AM on September 12, 2007

" ... it's more about finding someone whose issues you can stand than it is finding someone who has no issues."

Brilliant!
posted by JimN2TAW at 9:00 AM on September 12, 2007

Not exactly what you're looking for, but Profile of a Rapist.
posted by callmejay at 9:21 AM on September 12, 2007 [2 favorites has favorites]

Hive Mind, what are some good strategies for weeding out these wolves in sheep's clothing? Or alternately, what are some things I could do differently to prevent this kind of thing from happening?

Sounds to me like you're doing everything right. You meet someone you think is nice, you date them, things don't turn out well, you break up. What else is there to do? As long as you're trusting your instincts from the get-go, and doing your best to live in the moment while keeping your eye on any flags that pop-up, I think that's all any of us can do.
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 9:21 AM on September 12, 2007 [1 favorite has favorites]

My tactic, after too many years of wasted dates and LTRs with people who eventually showed strongly negative qualities, was to write up The List.

Every single must-have and must-not-have I could think of, I added to this list; as experience taught me lessons, I added more.

I actually kept this list posted online, made it readily available to anyone from links in my various profiles, and directed anyone expressing interest in me to read it.

Everyone's going to have a different List, of course; the core idea here is to turn your dating scheme on its head, and make it clear before you meet someone (or, if you met them in person, before an actual date or anything significant) what you do, and do not, want.

Will it scare people off? Absolutely — and that's the point. If someone's still interested after reading it, you might have a match on your hands.
posted by korpios at 9:22 AM on September 12, 2007 [2 favorites has favorites]

As much as it sucks and as much as you may want a boyfriend, you have to be able to drop them the second one of these major issues comes to light i.e. severe jealousy, possessiveness, cruelty, contempt, selfishness, manipulativeness, obviously physical abuse, dishonesty (not talking white lies here) and a few others I'm sure I've missed.
posted by whoaali at 9:22 AM on September 12, 2007 [1 favorite has favorites]

Something about how you phrased your question makes me think that maybe you're uncomfortable being "too demanding" in a relationship.

For instance - and I'm not trying to cause a raging dating-finance controversy here - you mentioned that you split the bill, as though that's a check in your "plus" column.

A girl who eagerly splits the first-date bill at the local Thai place is not going to make a dude treat her better because it's inexpensive to go out with her. He's not going to think "Wow! This girl is so very reasonable about splitting the bill, I better ask her to move in and treat her like a precious gem!"

In fact, I think there's an argument to be made that it encourages a certain kind of person to not value you very highly when you make things really, really easy for him. Not just with who picks up the check. With everything.

This sounds really trite and like I'm on Oprah, but I do believe that when you value yourself and you go around thinking that any guy would be lucky to be dating you, you are more likely to attract men who will agree with you than if you're going around thinking about how you can make yourself more agreeable and easy to date.
posted by thehmsbeagle at 9:37 AM on September 12, 2007 [5 favorites has favorites]

Coming off neat and decent at first is part of being a jerk. Unfortunately for our analysis, coming off neat and decent at first is also part of being an awesome man. So, assuming that you are looking for an awesome man, you're commencing aright. And, assuming that you have dumped and would still dump anyone who ceased to be neat and decent and started being disrespectful, you're continuing aright as well. With the qualifications you claim (and I have no reason to doubt them), I'd wager you'll conclude aright in the end.

'Course I can't say when. (Wish I could; 'cause if I could do it for you, I might could do it for me.) Bear in mind that our own pretty-much-universally-acclaimed grumblebee basically didn't have any romantic relationships till he was 28. Doesn't seem to have stunted his awesomeness.
posted by eritain at 9:51 AM on September 12, 2007

the second guy she had an LTR with idolized his mommy and wanted his girlfriend to be his mommy... including (creepy!) wearing the same perfume she wore! (CREEPY!)

Okay, the perfume bit is creepy, but it is not at all unusual for a guy to want to "marry his mom", to the extent that a guy is likely to be closer to his mom (and therefore more comfortable with her personality type) than any other person.

But back to the question at hand: I agree with the assertiveness thing. There were times when I kind of wanted Mrs. Doohickie to be "eye candy" and she simply refused to be objectified in that way. It wasn't a deal breaker for me, although at the time I wish she would have considered wearing, for instance, sexier clothes when when went out.

In the long run, though, I think the fact that she showed me where her limits were early on led me to deeply respect her later.
posted by Doohickie at 10:01 AM on September 12, 2007

A girl who eagerly splits the first-date bill at the local Thai place is not going to make a dude treat her better because it's inexpensive to go out with her. He's not going to think "Wow! This girl is so very reasonable about splitting the bill, I better ask her to move in and treat her like a precious gem!"

In fact, I think there's an argument to be made that it encourages a certain kind of person to not value you very highly when you make things really, really easy for him. Not just with who picks up the check. With everything.

Due respect, but I find this to be a common and unfortunate myth that's frequently spread among the fairer sex. It only justifies an outdated double-standard. It's true that if you split the bill with a user, they'll see it as an opportunity to take advantage of you. But that's true in all things, relationship or otherwise. Users are on the prowl for people's soft spots.

The typical guy who's decent, half-bright and is also trying to filter out the female users out there will see through efforts not to "make things easy," flag it as bitchy game play, and move on. I know this because I use to do it with fair regularity. Of course, that was before I asked my dutch-going girlfriend to move in with me. Now I just treat her like a precious gem.
posted by drpynchon at 10:23 AM on September 12, 2007 [2 favorites has favorites]

Thanks for all your comments! So, the main point I am coming away with is to be more clear on my limits, first to myself and then to others.

Oh, and for those wondering, LTR #1 lasted a year, off and on, and LTR #2 lasted a year and a half. Yeah, in restrospect, I should have dumpeds the bastard a lot earlier than I did. Chalk it up to lesson learned, I guess.
posted by LN at 10:37 AM on September 12, 2007

Due respect, but I find this to be a common and unfortunate myth that's frequently spread among the fairer sex. It only justifies an outdated double-standard.

Siiiiiiiiiiiiigh.

I had a super-long "Men: don't be furious!" disclaimer that I then deleted because I thought for sure people would get that my basic point was: People mostly treat you the way you expect to be treated, so maybe have some self-respect and expected to be treated nicely. That doesn't mean "Be a bitch" (???) but yeah, I'm going to go out on a limb and say that you can't really bribe people into being nice to you. A boy is not going to think "Well, I was GOING to act like a jerk to this girl, but now that I know that she'll pay for her own Pad Thai-!"

Having a sense of your own worth is a good idea for anyone, boy, girl, parakeet. That's hardly a crazy, reactionary, manipulative idea.
posted by thehmsbeagle at 10:47 AM on September 12, 2007

Having a sense of your own worth is a good idea for anyone, boy, girl, parakeet. That's hardly a crazy, reactionary, manipulative idea.

Agreed. But by the same token, do what feels fair and natural. Consider the possiblity that estimates of your own self-worth ought best be done in non-monetary terms.
posted by drpynchon at 10:58 AM on September 12, 2007

This previous discussion might also be useful.
posted by Skwirl at 11:14 AM on September 12, 2007

In the beginning especially, watch what he says and does. If he doesn't follow through on his promises or the simple things he says he'll do (calling you back, making plans, etc.) then realize that he is ok with disappointing you. (Not ok!)

I got that from a book, but it's golden. It also works within. If he doesn't stick to the things he says he'll do for his own benefit (ex. I'm going to not drink/eat/drive tonight), he is ok with letting himself down as well.

Sure, sometimes sh*t happens, but watch for patterns. Make a general check list of yellow and red flags for reference in all your relationships. If you have done this homework, you'll recognize 'em right away when they crop up. Then decide if it's worth it for you to deal or break. But they don't call 'em dealbreakers for nothin'.
posted by iamkimiam at 11:28 AM on September 12, 2007 [2 favorites has favorites]

n+1 what everyone's said....also OKCupid is not exactly known for the cream of the crop of folks looking for LTRs.
posted by softlord at 11:37 AM on September 12, 2007

I find the idea that it's a plus if you pay your own way on dates to be very silly. I don't give a guy credit for paying his own way when he's out with me - I expect him to unless I have said I will treat.

Callmejay's link is very good, and lays out the warning signs not only of a rapist but of people of both genders who are bad news in general. I found all my own major deal breakers in the list, and so won't repeat them.

I agree with a lot of people in this thread that there may not be anything wrong with your filters. Dating is experiential. You have to spend time with people before you'll know what they are like, and if someone is almost right for you it may be awhile before you know it.
posted by orange swan at 11:39 AM on September 12, 2007

One thing that I didn't see above is that sometimes you need to train a geek. Many of us really haven't had that many relationships and don't know when we're crossing the line. I think I've figured it out, or at least that's what Mrs. Advicepig lets me think ;)
posted by advicepig at 12:04 PM on September 12, 2007

I think stranger-dating is generally not the way to go to finding a good LTR, exceptions noted. You are better to look to people you know for development of something more substantial.
posted by letahl at 12:36 PM on September 12, 2007

For long-story, boring, dysfunctional family reasons, I didn't always have an expectation that I should be taken seriously and treated well. It made it that much easier for a guy to become a jerk. Make sure you have a good set of expectations. How to get to that point is a much longer story.
posted by theora55 at 2:34 PM on September 12, 2007 [1 favorite has favorites]

Read the Gift of Fear. I know it's normally recommended for stalking situations, but in chapter 11, it talks about some kind of "test" similar to the one iamkimiam mentions.

The example is about a controlling man who meets a woman in a party. He offers her a drink, and at first she doesn't accept, but he presses a bit and she accepts, probably just to be nice. He will keep testing, each time with something slightly more significant, until he controls her.

I saw a similar pattern in the relationship of somebody close to me. I think she felt flattered by the attention, but I only saw that her boyfriend was not respecting her wishes. He was not respecting her.
posted by clearlydemon at 11:23 PM on September 12, 2007

LTR #2 actually forbid me from showing any affection to him while his friends were around, and forbid me from talking to his friends.

I hope that was an instant DTMFA, because if you put up with that for even a day, or tried to "discuss" it you need to recheck your self esteem. Maybe if you were with a guy for years and he pulled something like this out of the blue it would be worth telling him to get checked for a brain tumor, but otherwise it's time to find the door.
posted by BrotherCaine at 2:18 AM on September 13, 2007

BrotherCaine, the first of the two things happened very early on in the relationship. The request struck me as very odd, but I told myself that I didn't know his friends and he might have had a good reason to ask me to keep the physical affection down to a minimum.

The second happened at the end of the relationship - in fact, it was the catalyst that led me to break up with him. I pointed out that if he was going to consistently side with his friends, then I wouldn't ever be able to trust that he would back me up if I needed it. He agreed wholeheartedly, then indicated that he himself had been gearing up for a "state of the union address", as he termed it.

Damn, I'm so glad I beat him to the punch.
posted by LN at 5:41 AM on September 13, 2007

I think that your jerk detector works fine, but you are ignoring it.

This is what you think you are doing:
I make an almighty effort to switch off my judgement of a person based on looks alone

but what you're really doing is ignoring your gut instinct [i.e. jerk detector].

Maybe the idea of being in a relationship, or having someone like you, or whatever [insert romantic vanity issue here] prompts you to turn your jerk detector off--it's happened to me, I think it probably happens to a lot of people.

Try listening to your gut: see what happens when you only go after guys you are genuinely attracted to. Ditch the ones whose looks you don't like. (I mean in person, not online. My online photos are godawful and I know plenty of unattractive people who look great on myspace/facebook/etc). People's personalities are often reflected in their facial expressions and other surface characterstics--so your initial judgements of a person's appearance might actually benefit your search.
posted by chelseagirl at 10:57 PM on September 13, 2007

Good for you. It sounds a little like you do need to work on your jerk detector a little bit, or at least to believe with confidence the feelings of unease you get from situations with guys who turn out to be jerks. However, even the best of us at jerk detection get things wrong sometimes, and there is no substitute for dating experience.
posted by BrotherCaine at 12:32 AM on September 14, 2007

People's personalities are often reflected in their facial expressions and other surface characterstics--so your initial judgements of a person's appearance might actually benefit your search.

This advice strikes me as somewhat dangerous. If I picked what books to read based on their covers (both as the cliché goes, and literally), I'd miss lots of good books — and, furthermore, I'd end up reading lots of shitty ones. For more in-depth coverage of the benefits and perils of snap decisions (in all areas of life), I highly recommend Blink by Malcolm Gladwell. We have plenty of instincts, thanks to evolution; however, they were meant for the savannas of many thousands of years past, and not all of them work properly in the modern environment.
posted by korpios at 6:29 AM on September 14, 2007

Did they have red hair...? They sound as though they have red hair.
posted by mu~ha~ha~ha~har at 2:42 AM on October 20, 2007