Am I a bad client?
June 3, 2007 8:44 PM
Am I a bad client, or are my computer guys out of line?
Bear with me. I'm a professional artist/writer/cartoonist/director. I work several jobs in several locations virtually seven days a week. I've used Macs for years and while I can make them sing creatively, I have only a users knowledge of maintaining them and, frankly, it's not productive and financially logical for me to spend my time doing so.
A few months ago my trusty old home G4 crashes and I decide to upgrade across the board ... Macbook Pro ... several large monitors ... new tablets ... other toys ... the works. At the same time I decide to retain real Mac professionals to help me buy, setup and maintain the equipment. So I pick a Mac-only company that's been in business for over 10 years, started by a former graphic artist, and now operating in several large cities.
Initially, they're great. They land me some corporate discounts, help me select just what I need and handle the purchase. Then I pay one of their guys $150 and hour to come to my home office, set everything up and take my house wireless. The guys shows, he's great and in a day I'm clipping along. And I think I finally have a professional ongoing support network so I can concentrate on doing what I do best.
Then the wireless connectivity of my MBP goes haywire. I can never connect. I have to jiggle with network preferences and reboot routers ... takes me 15 minutes to get on the web to check email. Works fine outside of my house but sucky three feet from the Airport in my home office. My wife connects with here HP; my kids connect with their Dell; me .... nada.
Now the fun starts. These guys are available in person only during business hours. I'm in another office on another entire computer system when they're available. When I have problems, they're not available. I have to contact them during business hours when I'm not in front of my problem computer.
But one day I am, and I'm on deadline when things go bad. I call their phone support. It's their expert in a local office. I explain to him what's going on. I'm stressed but calm. I'm not one of those angry nutsos who wants miracles. He starts to walk me through things but keeps asking me questions above my abilities to interpret them. One I got one series of commands wrong, I get the big sigh from him. Then it happens again. The big sigh. He starts to chide me about how he can't help me if I tell him I understand then don't hit the right buttons. I lose it a little. I tell him I just dropped, oh $7500 with his company and I'm sorry but I don't know this stuff, that's why I hired them but am left with an expensive computer that can't connect with the internet since they set it up.
The rest of the call is tense but he gets the problem fixed ... sort of. Over the next weeks. The problem returns. So I e-mail my "personal' support guy ... the one who came to my house ... the one I really liked. I tell him it didn't go well with the other guy in the office and could he help me personally. He takes days to get back to me but with no real concrete solutions. I've since sent a few more emails but it's been a week since the last cry for help and no response.
So...
1) Have these guys branded me a wacko just for insisting they do what I paid them to do in the first place?
2) Am I wrong for insisting they do this ... and for getting ticked off about the big sighs?
3) Should I kick these guys to the curb now and take my lumps, or do I get them to fix it first, then say goodbye.
4) Do I admit these things happen, give them a chance and hope this was weird vortex I got caught in.
Or am I deluding myself and I'm just a bad client and don't know it? Somehow they have me feeling that way.
PS: Bonus points for telling me the best possible way I can find a great Mac support guy or gal I can rely on. I will love them forever and shower them with riches
Bear with me. I'm a professional artist/writer/cartoonist/director. I work several jobs in several locations virtually seven days a week. I've used Macs for years and while I can make them sing creatively, I have only a users knowledge of maintaining them and, frankly, it's not productive and financially logical for me to spend my time doing so.
A few months ago my trusty old home G4 crashes and I decide to upgrade across the board ... Macbook Pro ... several large monitors ... new tablets ... other toys ... the works. At the same time I decide to retain real Mac professionals to help me buy, setup and maintain the equipment. So I pick a Mac-only company that's been in business for over 10 years, started by a former graphic artist, and now operating in several large cities.
Initially, they're great. They land me some corporate discounts, help me select just what I need and handle the purchase. Then I pay one of their guys $150 and hour to come to my home office, set everything up and take my house wireless. The guys shows, he's great and in a day I'm clipping along. And I think I finally have a professional ongoing support network so I can concentrate on doing what I do best.
Then the wireless connectivity of my MBP goes haywire. I can never connect. I have to jiggle with network preferences and reboot routers ... takes me 15 minutes to get on the web to check email. Works fine outside of my house but sucky three feet from the Airport in my home office. My wife connects with here HP; my kids connect with their Dell; me .... nada.
Now the fun starts. These guys are available in person only during business hours. I'm in another office on another entire computer system when they're available. When I have problems, they're not available. I have to contact them during business hours when I'm not in front of my problem computer.
But one day I am, and I'm on deadline when things go bad. I call their phone support. It's their expert in a local office. I explain to him what's going on. I'm stressed but calm. I'm not one of those angry nutsos who wants miracles. He starts to walk me through things but keeps asking me questions above my abilities to interpret them. One I got one series of commands wrong, I get the big sigh from him. Then it happens again. The big sigh. He starts to chide me about how he can't help me if I tell him I understand then don't hit the right buttons. I lose it a little. I tell him I just dropped, oh $7500 with his company and I'm sorry but I don't know this stuff, that's why I hired them but am left with an expensive computer that can't connect with the internet since they set it up.
The rest of the call is tense but he gets the problem fixed ... sort of. Over the next weeks. The problem returns. So I e-mail my "personal' support guy ... the one who came to my house ... the one I really liked. I tell him it didn't go well with the other guy in the office and could he help me personally. He takes days to get back to me but with no real concrete solutions. I've since sent a few more emails but it's been a week since the last cry for help and no response.
So...
1) Have these guys branded me a wacko just for insisting they do what I paid them to do in the first place?
2) Am I wrong for insisting they do this ... and for getting ticked off about the big sighs?
3) Should I kick these guys to the curb now and take my lumps, or do I get them to fix it first, then say goodbye.
4) Do I admit these things happen, give them a chance and hope this was weird vortex I got caught in.
Or am I deluding myself and I'm just a bad client and don't know it? Somehow they have me feeling that way.
PS: Bonus points for telling me the best possible way I can find a great Mac support guy or gal I can rely on. I will love them forever and shower them with riches
Professionals don't audibly sigh, even if the client doesn't get it. And it sounds like you were working hard to do as directed.
Professionals don't chide you for not knowing what you've hired them to know so you don't have to.
You wouldn't put up with that from a landscaper, auto mechanic, a doctor, a lawyer, or an accountant. don't put up to it from some socially inept geek.
He was unprofessional. Escalate to his boss, explain that you didn't pay $7500 to be treated disrespectfully.
posted by orthogonality at 8:59 PM on June 3, 2007
Professionals don't chide you for not knowing what you've hired them to know so you don't have to.
You wouldn't put up with that from a landscaper, auto mechanic, a doctor, a lawyer, or an accountant. don't put up to it from some socially inept geek.
He was unprofessional. Escalate to his boss, explain that you didn't pay $7500 to be treated disrespectfully.
posted by orthogonality at 8:59 PM on June 3, 2007
Yeah, I agree with Phire. You pay them to fix things. If it doesn't get resolved over the phone, I'd expect such a company to make a house call, especially if they have before.
Also, you don't seem to be the only one with MBP wifi issues.
posted by niles at 9:00 PM on June 3, 2007
Also, you don't seem to be the only one with MBP wifi issues.
posted by niles at 9:00 PM on June 3, 2007
No, I think you're being reasonable. I also think you're paying through the nose. $150 an hour?? for tech help?? Seriously!
Don't get caught up in trying to get "Mac Only" help. Macs are user-friendly enough that any computer technician should be able to handle it.
Man, if I were you, I would just tell your kids to tell you of their most computer-literate friend. I would then offer the kid $100 to sit and figure out your wireless issues. I did this all the time back in high school, and I did macs, pcs, whatever.
posted by unexpected at 9:05 PM on June 3, 2007
Don't get caught up in trying to get "Mac Only" help. Macs are user-friendly enough that any computer technician should be able to handle it.
Man, if I were you, I would just tell your kids to tell you of their most computer-literate friend. I would then offer the kid $100 to sit and figure out your wireless issues. I did this all the time back in high school, and I did macs, pcs, whatever.
posted by unexpected at 9:05 PM on June 3, 2007
The definition of a bad client is one that does not pay.
posted by Ironmouth at 9:23 PM on June 3, 2007
posted by Ironmouth at 9:23 PM on June 3, 2007
Or am I deluding myself and I'm just a bad client and don't know it?
As someone who knows very little about tech support but an awful lot about customer service, I say no, not at all. They're being unprofessional. There are a very few things that customers can do to become "bad" (not as many as many customer service people would like to believe) but you haven't described any of them - and even if you did, sighing heavily into the phone at you is inexcusable in any case, for a person in that guy's position. Get your stuff fixed and take your business elsewhere - they don't deserve it.
posted by frobozz at 9:27 PM on June 3, 2007
As someone who knows very little about tech support but an awful lot about customer service, I say no, not at all. They're being unprofessional. There are a very few things that customers can do to become "bad" (not as many as many customer service people would like to believe) but you haven't described any of them - and even if you did, sighing heavily into the phone at you is inexcusable in any case, for a person in that guy's position. Get your stuff fixed and take your business elsewhere - they don't deserve it.
posted by frobozz at 9:27 PM on June 3, 2007
I wouldn't say that you're a bad client but perhaps a difficult one. There are so many variables between hardware, software, and end users that it can be very difficult to troubleshoot issues over the phone, and you've effectively handcuffed the company by not being available for onsight service during regular business hours.
It sounds like your problem requires an onsight visit. Either make yourself available during regular business hours or find a company that will accomodate your schedule.
posted by sockpup at 9:52 PM on June 3, 2007
It sounds like your problem requires an onsight visit. Either make yourself available during regular business hours or find a company that will accomodate your schedule.
posted by sockpup at 9:52 PM on June 3, 2007
Sorry I don't have suggestions for the technical aspects of your question, but if you need home support, and they're not willing to work outside regular business hours but insist that you accommodate them by changing your schedule to be there, find someone else. Customer service is about providing you, the customer, with the services you need. If they can't or won't do that, find someone that does.
I'm not some fanatical, overly-entitled, "the customer is always right" kind of prick. But if they can't fix the problems you're paying them to fix in a timely manner, aren't providing any alternative solutions, and are (over)charging you by the hour, the problem is not with you. You say it's been a week since the last communication from them, I would say that's enough to write them off and find someone else who is willing and able to fix the mess they've left you to try to mop up on your own.
posted by kyleg at 10:36 PM on June 3, 2007
I'm not some fanatical, overly-entitled, "the customer is always right" kind of prick. But if they can't fix the problems you're paying them to fix in a timely manner, aren't providing any alternative solutions, and are (over)charging you by the hour, the problem is not with you. You say it's been a week since the last communication from them, I would say that's enough to write them off and find someone else who is willing and able to fix the mess they've left you to try to mop up on your own.
posted by kyleg at 10:36 PM on June 3, 2007
Just chiming in: you're not a bad client at all.
Even if there was a problem, the proper response would've been something like "Excuse me sir, I'm afraid it's going to be difficult to fix this over the phone, but if you'd like to drop by our offices, we can take a look at it for you." or they could send another guy to your office to check it out.
But none of that heavy-sighing-let's-make-him-feel-like-a-moron stuff.
posted by theiconoclast31 at 10:57 PM on June 3, 2007
Even if there was a problem, the proper response would've been something like "Excuse me sir, I'm afraid it's going to be difficult to fix this over the phone, but if you'd like to drop by our offices, we can take a look at it for you." or they could send another guy to your office to check it out.
But none of that heavy-sighing-let's-make-him-feel-like-a-moron stuff.
posted by theiconoclast31 at 10:57 PM on June 3, 2007
I don't know if you're a bad client. Doesn't seem like it to me.
But regarding your wireless woes, do you happen to be connecting to a non-Apple wireless router? The reason I ask is, I had terrible problems with my MacBook Pro staying connected to a third-party router. It'd drop the connection all the time, and the only solution seemed to be restarting the router. I would sometimes have to do it 5 or more times in an evening. Other computers in the house had no problems. After months of looking for help online and from Apple, I finally hooked an Airport Express to the router via ethernet, and used the Airport to handle wireless. I have not had any problems since.
I know "how do I fix my MBP wireless problems?" wasn't your question. Just trying to help.
posted by thinman at 11:05 PM on June 3, 2007
But regarding your wireless woes, do you happen to be connecting to a non-Apple wireless router? The reason I ask is, I had terrible problems with my MacBook Pro staying connected to a third-party router. It'd drop the connection all the time, and the only solution seemed to be restarting the router. I would sometimes have to do it 5 or more times in an evening. Other computers in the house had no problems. After months of looking for help online and from Apple, I finally hooked an Airport Express to the router via ethernet, and used the Airport to handle wireless. I have not had any problems since.
I know "how do I fix my MBP wireless problems?" wasn't your question. Just trying to help.
posted by thinman at 11:05 PM on June 3, 2007
Coming at it as the tech guy (but not your tech guy):
You need a conversation with the person in charge of services there. As that guy in my shop, I would be very interested in your feedback.
You should discuss with Person In Charge:
The sighing technician is unprofessional. Report that behavior to his superior. If one of my guys did this to a client, he'd get reassigned and written up. Seriously. That's just uncalled for.
This is a site visit situation and they owe you half the cost of the service call, at least, to make up for their bad behavior. Tell them you want a technician there on x day at x time, and no travel charges, only on-site clock time will be paid for. If they won't do this, find another provider.
After they have resolved your issues - which sound like a poorly configured wireless network to me - find a replacement or come to terms with their level of support.
In any event if you choose to change providers, please use Mac-certified (or at least fluent) technicians to support it. You will pay more per hour for them, you will pay less in the long run. I say this because anyone in-thread saying that "Macs and PC's are similar enough" clearly hasn't had to fix a PC at ten, and a Mac at 11, and expect to be able to find the right-mouse button. :)
posted by disclaimer at 11:31 PM on June 3, 2007
You need a conversation with the person in charge of services there. As that guy in my shop, I would be very interested in your feedback.
You should discuss with Person In Charge:
The sighing technician is unprofessional. Report that behavior to his superior. If one of my guys did this to a client, he'd get reassigned and written up. Seriously. That's just uncalled for.
This is a site visit situation and they owe you half the cost of the service call, at least, to make up for their bad behavior. Tell them you want a technician there on x day at x time, and no travel charges, only on-site clock time will be paid for. If they won't do this, find another provider.
After they have resolved your issues - which sound like a poorly configured wireless network to me - find a replacement or come to terms with their level of support.
In any event if you choose to change providers, please use Mac-certified (or at least fluent) technicians to support it. You will pay more per hour for them, you will pay less in the long run. I say this because anyone in-thread saying that "Macs and PC's are similar enough" clearly hasn't had to fix a PC at ten, and a Mac at 11, and expect to be able to find the right-mouse button. :)
posted by disclaimer at 11:31 PM on June 3, 2007
There are three problems here. The first is that computer people are very rarely people people. That's where professionalism and experience comes in, and it sounds like the guy who answered the phone to you lacked these two qualities. That's probably why he's answering the phone and not making site visits. Did he sound like he was young? They might be hiring kids for phone support because they're cheaper than adults.
Secondly, unlike with PC support, Mac support guys have to use Apple hardware, and they have to take the rap for sucky hardware and software. They can't use another company's stuff when it goes through a phase of being crap, because you need Mac stuff. This can be hard for them to swallow, especially considering point three below.
Thirdly, people who like Mac stuff enough to work with it tend to be evangelical about it. So the user tends to come out second compared to the gleaming white plastic of Apple hardware. The hardware and software is... perfect. Therefore you must be flawed.
As mentioned by somebody else, Intel Macs have had a lot of problems with wifi recently. There have been three (?) patches for the Airport Extreme this year. My iMac's wifi just didn't work until very recently, and I'm not convinced my MacBook is working 100% even now.
That said, these problems are mostly fixed via patches, and I can't understand why these guys haven't been able to fix it. It might be that they're holding back applying patches for a set period, which is an arguably silly policy.
If nothing else, they could run a cable from your Mac to the router for the time being, until they can get around to fixing it.
posted by humblepigeon at 11:40 PM on June 3, 2007
Secondly, unlike with PC support, Mac support guys have to use Apple hardware, and they have to take the rap for sucky hardware and software. They can't use another company's stuff when it goes through a phase of being crap, because you need Mac stuff. This can be hard for them to swallow, especially considering point three below.
Thirdly, people who like Mac stuff enough to work with it tend to be evangelical about it. So the user tends to come out second compared to the gleaming white plastic of Apple hardware. The hardware and software is... perfect. Therefore you must be flawed.
As mentioned by somebody else, Intel Macs have had a lot of problems with wifi recently. There have been three (?) patches for the Airport Extreme this year. My iMac's wifi just didn't work until very recently, and I'm not convinced my MacBook is working 100% even now.
That said, these problems are mostly fixed via patches, and I can't understand why these guys haven't been able to fix it. It might be that they're holding back applying patches for a set period, which is an arguably silly policy.
If nothing else, they could run a cable from your Mac to the router for the time being, until they can get around to fixing it.
posted by humblepigeon at 11:40 PM on June 3, 2007
You're not a bad client. In my experience, the most common complaint that your average computer user has is that their support guys treat them like complete idiots. This is not uncommon. At all.
Since you're not forced to deal with these guys via some corporate IT department politics, you should definitely fire them and may even consider demanding a refund of some sort. It doesn't sound like fulfilled their end of the bargain.
There are many independent Mac-savvy support consultants that would love your patronage and have a reasonable handle on explaining problems and offering support in plain English. Find somebody else.
(As for your technical issues: I'd look into wireless interference, like a cordless phone or microwave, or possible problems with your MBP's or Airport's wireless hardware. If you just bought your equipment and/or purchased AppleCare, Apple's tech support is available to help and usually quite patient and reasonable... they'll help you deduce if it's a problem with your Apple hardware--and send you new equipment if it seems to be.)
posted by maniactown at 12:22 AM on June 4, 2007
Since you're not forced to deal with these guys via some corporate IT department politics, you should definitely fire them and may even consider demanding a refund of some sort. It doesn't sound like fulfilled their end of the bargain.
There are many independent Mac-savvy support consultants that would love your patronage and have a reasonable handle on explaining problems and offering support in plain English. Find somebody else.
(As for your technical issues: I'd look into wireless interference, like a cordless phone or microwave, or possible problems with your MBP's or Airport's wireless hardware. If you just bought your equipment and/or purchased AppleCare, Apple's tech support is available to help and usually quite patient and reasonable... they'll help you deduce if it's a problem with your Apple hardware--and send you new equipment if it seems to be.)
posted by maniactown at 12:22 AM on June 4, 2007
I have only a users knowledge of maintaining them and, frankly, it's not productive and financially logical for me to spend my time doing so.
It is very likely that this is wrong on many levels, but I will only offer the simplest. To be certain you are getting good value from your specialist professionals, you must have significant skill in the area yourself.
He starts to chide me about how he can't help me if I tell him I understand then don't hit the right buttons.
It might have been a tragic series of miscommunications, and you really don't want to be dealing with robotic personalities, so.. Regardless, a professional response from the company is in order now.
I would judge them more by how they deal with the issue than by the fact that it happened. This goes doubly if you don't have any expertise of your own, because the only thing you can judge them on is their commitment to satisfying their customers - you have no idea if they are technically competent or not.
posted by Chuckles at 12:30 AM on June 4, 2007
It is very likely that this is wrong on many levels, but I will only offer the simplest. To be certain you are getting good value from your specialist professionals, you must have significant skill in the area yourself.
He starts to chide me about how he can't help me if I tell him I understand then don't hit the right buttons.
It might have been a tragic series of miscommunications, and you really don't want to be dealing with robotic personalities, so.. Regardless, a professional response from the company is in order now.
I would judge them more by how they deal with the issue than by the fact that it happened. This goes doubly if you don't have any expertise of your own, because the only thing you can judge them on is their commitment to satisfying their customers - you have no idea if they are technically competent or not.
posted by Chuckles at 12:30 AM on June 4, 2007
Depending on your market, $150/hour can actually be pretty reasonable; it depends on the local costs and the amount of expertise they have on offer. There's a lot of overhead in getting that guy on staff to roll your direction. I wouldn't directly be upset about that at all.
That said, in any market short of, say, the New York financial district, $150/hour should get you after-hours service if you need it, at that same rate. That's particularly true for supporting a sale, and if it turns out to be faulty equipment, they should probably eat the time to get it running right.
A robust wireless link is not an unreasonable expectation. However, that said, wireless is funny; the strangest things can cause problems. From you saying that it works okay OUTSIDE your house, but not INSIDE, I think you may have interference from another device. It's probably quite close to your computer, perhaps a 2.4Ghz wireless telephone or a microwave on the other side of a wall. Doing what you can to shut everything electronic off EXCEPT the wireless link will help troubleshoot.
Also: in your Airport config, assuming you're using an Airport or Airport Express, turn on 'interference robustness'. That can often fix this kind of problem. It's particularly good at avoiding problems from a nearby microwave, which plays havoc on a wireless signal.
Also try changing your channel, if those things don't work. Turn off your AP, and use your laptop to see see what wireless channels are in use in your area. Pick a channel at least 5 away from any other in use, or as far away as possible if you can't get that far. Normally, WiFi should only be on channels 1, 6, and 11, as those are the only three channels that don't interfere with each other at all.
Remember that, overall, almost everything is working fine, you're just having specific issues with a specific thing. Computer guys aren't usually radioheads, and that's what WiFi is... radio. We generally don't have a lot of tools to use in this kind of thing. So that's probably why you're getting foot-dragging; this kind of thing is tough for computer guys.
But at $150/hour, someone at HQ ought to be grabbing this problem and running with it. For that kind of money, you should have people who are focused on solving problems, not just answering the phone. If they're not willing to manage the problem, it's time to find different computer guys. $50/hour guys answer the phone; $150/hour guys should take your problems, whatever they are, and FIX them. If they don't have the expertise in house, they should call someone else and get them out there for you.
(If you're in a very expensive market, then my thoughts on what $150 guys ought to be doing may not be accurate. :) )
posted by Malor at 12:53 AM on June 4, 2007
That said, in any market short of, say, the New York financial district, $150/hour should get you after-hours service if you need it, at that same rate. That's particularly true for supporting a sale, and if it turns out to be faulty equipment, they should probably eat the time to get it running right.
A robust wireless link is not an unreasonable expectation. However, that said, wireless is funny; the strangest things can cause problems. From you saying that it works okay OUTSIDE your house, but not INSIDE, I think you may have interference from another device. It's probably quite close to your computer, perhaps a 2.4Ghz wireless telephone or a microwave on the other side of a wall. Doing what you can to shut everything electronic off EXCEPT the wireless link will help troubleshoot.
Also: in your Airport config, assuming you're using an Airport or Airport Express, turn on 'interference robustness'. That can often fix this kind of problem. It's particularly good at avoiding problems from a nearby microwave, which plays havoc on a wireless signal.
Also try changing your channel, if those things don't work. Turn off your AP, and use your laptop to see see what wireless channels are in use in your area. Pick a channel at least 5 away from any other in use, or as far away as possible if you can't get that far. Normally, WiFi should only be on channels 1, 6, and 11, as those are the only three channels that don't interfere with each other at all.
Remember that, overall, almost everything is working fine, you're just having specific issues with a specific thing. Computer guys aren't usually radioheads, and that's what WiFi is... radio. We generally don't have a lot of tools to use in this kind of thing. So that's probably why you're getting foot-dragging; this kind of thing is tough for computer guys.
But at $150/hour, someone at HQ ought to be grabbing this problem and running with it. For that kind of money, you should have people who are focused on solving problems, not just answering the phone. If they're not willing to manage the problem, it's time to find different computer guys. $50/hour guys answer the phone; $150/hour guys should take your problems, whatever they are, and FIX them. If they don't have the expertise in house, they should call someone else and get them out there for you.
(If you're in a very expensive market, then my thoughts on what $150 guys ought to be doing may not be accurate. :) )
posted by Malor at 12:53 AM on June 4, 2007
From the guy on the phone's PoV, yes you're a bad client. I'm not saying what he did was right but as someone who has tried to give tech support on the phone I know how hard it is when you get someone who hasnt the foggiest what you're talking about.
You have to remember that when you ring him up he has no idea of your level of computer literacy, if he dumbs down everything to the lowest level he risk patronising the client and ofcourse making the call last a lot longer because of it.
Phone support is very difficult, he cant see your computer or whats going on - he has to rely on your non-technical description of whats going on - I cant count the number of times the only information I've got from the client is 'it doesnt work' or 'the page is blank' which can mean anything from the page is totally blank to the page just doesnt have what I expected on it.
He then has to try to explain to you, without being patronising, what you have to do - now if you cant do as he asks or do it wrong, this can be incredibly frustrating for him and its easy to lose your flow in those situations.
But he is quite right, if you say you understand the instructions when you dont and then do it wrong, its impossible for him to help you. If you dont understand you have to say you dont understand.
Cut him some slack, its a low-paid, thankless job and he might have had a run of 'bad clients' before you.
If you've gone into the situation insisting they didnt do their job then you've probably shot yourself in the foot, thats the last thing techies like to hear - if you start by accusing them of not doing what you paid them to do, you're automatically creating bad-blood and putting them on the defensive. If it was working, they did what they were paid to do but something went wrong - wireless does that and no-one really knows why - from a techie point of view - wires you can trust, if a cabled network goes wrong you have something to check - wireless, not so simple. Your network is now running on invisible radio waves - you cant unplug it or check the connections, replace the wire - theres nothing physical to do anything with.
What kind of support contract do you have with them? What length of guarentee do they provide? If you're expecting them to fix it for free because you're saying they didnt do a proper job in the first place, thats another point on the bad client column. Helping you wont make them any money and accusing them of not doing it right in the first place is not going to make them like you any better or make them more inclined to help you for free. Sure, they might lose you as a client but from what you've said, doesnt sound like you're the kind of client they want to keep.
You'd be suprise how far a little niceness and ego massaging can get you when you want help.
As for them not providing 'out of hours' support - why should they? Sounds like they specialise in corporate clients - who work normal business hours. If you needed someone who worked out of hours you should have checked that first. If their main client base is businesses then employing people to cover out of hours on the off-chance someone needs help would be a big expense for them.
posted by missmagenta at 2:04 AM on June 4, 2007
You have to remember that when you ring him up he has no idea of your level of computer literacy, if he dumbs down everything to the lowest level he risk patronising the client and ofcourse making the call last a lot longer because of it.
Phone support is very difficult, he cant see your computer or whats going on - he has to rely on your non-technical description of whats going on - I cant count the number of times the only information I've got from the client is 'it doesnt work' or 'the page is blank' which can mean anything from the page is totally blank to the page just doesnt have what I expected on it.
He then has to try to explain to you, without being patronising, what you have to do - now if you cant do as he asks or do it wrong, this can be incredibly frustrating for him and its easy to lose your flow in those situations.
But he is quite right, if you say you understand the instructions when you dont and then do it wrong, its impossible for him to help you. If you dont understand you have to say you dont understand.
Cut him some slack, its a low-paid, thankless job and he might have had a run of 'bad clients' before you.
If you've gone into the situation insisting they didnt do their job then you've probably shot yourself in the foot, thats the last thing techies like to hear - if you start by accusing them of not doing what you paid them to do, you're automatically creating bad-blood and putting them on the defensive. If it was working, they did what they were paid to do but something went wrong - wireless does that and no-one really knows why - from a techie point of view - wires you can trust, if a cabled network goes wrong you have something to check - wireless, not so simple. Your network is now running on invisible radio waves - you cant unplug it or check the connections, replace the wire - theres nothing physical to do anything with.
What kind of support contract do you have with them? What length of guarentee do they provide? If you're expecting them to fix it for free because you're saying they didnt do a proper job in the first place, thats another point on the bad client column. Helping you wont make them any money and accusing them of not doing it right in the first place is not going to make them like you any better or make them more inclined to help you for free. Sure, they might lose you as a client but from what you've said, doesnt sound like you're the kind of client they want to keep.
You'd be suprise how far a little niceness and ego massaging can get you when you want help.
As for them not providing 'out of hours' support - why should they? Sounds like they specialise in corporate clients - who work normal business hours. If you needed someone who worked out of hours you should have checked that first. If their main client base is businesses then employing people to cover out of hours on the off-chance someone needs help would be a big expense for them.
posted by missmagenta at 2:04 AM on June 4, 2007
I disagree with missmagenta. When you've paid that much, you want professionalism and results.
I'd just like to remind my fellow computer professionals that the reason our clients pay us all that money is because they don't want to have to know anything more about it than the bare minimum.
To address lpsguy's question, he isn't a problem customer (Yet!) and it doesn't sound like he's getting his money's worth.
posted by alex_reno at 2:40 AM on June 4, 2007
I'd just like to remind my fellow computer professionals that the reason our clients pay us all that money is because they don't want to have to know anything more about it than the bare minimum.
To address lpsguy's question, he isn't a problem customer (Yet!) and it doesn't sound like he's getting his money's worth.
posted by alex_reno at 2:40 AM on June 4, 2007
Thats depends what the $7500 was for, if that includes the laptop, several monitors, all the other toys and the installation fee sounds like he got a bargain.
As I said, unless that included a support contract or time guarentee then they're not obliged to give him free support.
Going in with an attitude of 'I paid x to your company so I demand you help me' and 'you didnt do what I paid you to so you should jump through hoops and do exactly what I want' isnt going to get you results, its going to get you on a list of 'clients not worth the bother'.
If you want it fixed then you're going to have to take time off or at least arrange for someone to be in the house so they can look at it. You cant expect their on-site engineer to give you free email support and you cant expect miracles over the phone - particularly if you have trouble following instructions but dont want to admit it to the guy on the phone. Phone support is the lowest level of tech support, they're designed to get you up and running, not know the entire history of your tech problems. You need an on-site consultation, if you want it fixed then you'll have to make the time or find a company that offers out of hours support.
You're blaming them for not doing their job when likely the problem is that something in your house is causing interference with your laptop - thats why everyone else can connect but not you and you can connect from outside the house but not inside.
posted by missmagenta at 3:21 AM on June 4, 2007
As I said, unless that included a support contract or time guarentee then they're not obliged to give him free support.
Going in with an attitude of 'I paid x to your company so I demand you help me' and 'you didnt do what I paid you to so you should jump through hoops and do exactly what I want' isnt going to get you results, its going to get you on a list of 'clients not worth the bother'.
If you want it fixed then you're going to have to take time off or at least arrange for someone to be in the house so they can look at it. You cant expect their on-site engineer to give you free email support and you cant expect miracles over the phone - particularly if you have trouble following instructions but dont want to admit it to the guy on the phone. Phone support is the lowest level of tech support, they're designed to get you up and running, not know the entire history of your tech problems. You need an on-site consultation, if you want it fixed then you'll have to make the time or find a company that offers out of hours support.
You're blaming them for not doing their job when likely the problem is that something in your house is causing interference with your laptop - thats why everyone else can connect but not you and you can connect from outside the house but not inside.
posted by missmagenta at 3:21 AM on June 4, 2007
I am a little out of the crowd on this one.
My question is, given your needs (at home support, and it sounds like you want in person support), why did you pick these guys, knowing that their hours and distance made things uncomfortable?
Additionally, and I'd have to listen to the conversation to be able to tell, thus far everyone has neglected the utility of the Big Sigh. What's that for, in the purposes of communication? How do human beings use that? Have you ever used that? Bet you have. Bet you've even used it in a work setting.
I wouldn't pull out the Big Sigh right off, but after a series of errors, it's more appropriate. Technical support isn't just a phone menu you call up that will walk you through the steps and tell you to press the pound key after each one, it's a human on the other end of the line, trying to do something fairly difficult - envision exactly what it is you're doing on a system he may or may not have seen. There's professionalism, and then there's asking someone to exhibit no response. He's tech support, not those guards in England with the tall, fluffy hats whom one can torment without response.
The Big Sigh is a reminder that he's not perfect, either, just like you. That the $7,500 you spent was on the laptop, etc., that you got discounts, and that you're now cutting into their profits if you are using the "I just dropped $7,500 ..." line. Depends on what that $7,500 was for. Was there a service contract?
Also, try working tech support. The previous poster was right - you have no idea what a complete tightrope you have to walk dealing with people of not only wildly disparate dispositions, but technical abilities from "The thing with the thingee and the other thingee" to the Know It All, to the guy who frighteningly does know more than you but knows he has to put up with this dance to get to the next tier of support. It's disheartening to see humanity like this. Even psychotherapists can lose their cool, and they go to school to learn how to deal with difficult people. This guy probably did not.
Computers are unique items. They aren't like cars where you can tool about in them and then drop them off at the shop for an obvious solution, and borrow someone else's car in the interim. Your best technical support will always be yourself, and it will always be more productive for you to learn what it is you're doing and to worry about it yourself. If you want something that will never sigh at you, get a book. Otherwise, expect people to be people.
posted by adipocere at 3:55 AM on June 4, 2007
My question is, given your needs (at home support, and it sounds like you want in person support), why did you pick these guys, knowing that their hours and distance made things uncomfortable?
Additionally, and I'd have to listen to the conversation to be able to tell, thus far everyone has neglected the utility of the Big Sigh. What's that for, in the purposes of communication? How do human beings use that? Have you ever used that? Bet you have. Bet you've even used it in a work setting.
I wouldn't pull out the Big Sigh right off, but after a series of errors, it's more appropriate. Technical support isn't just a phone menu you call up that will walk you through the steps and tell you to press the pound key after each one, it's a human on the other end of the line, trying to do something fairly difficult - envision exactly what it is you're doing on a system he may or may not have seen. There's professionalism, and then there's asking someone to exhibit no response. He's tech support, not those guards in England with the tall, fluffy hats whom one can torment without response.
The Big Sigh is a reminder that he's not perfect, either, just like you. That the $7,500 you spent was on the laptop, etc., that you got discounts, and that you're now cutting into their profits if you are using the "I just dropped $7,500 ..." line. Depends on what that $7,500 was for. Was there a service contract?
Also, try working tech support. The previous poster was right - you have no idea what a complete tightrope you have to walk dealing with people of not only wildly disparate dispositions, but technical abilities from "The thing with the thingee and the other thingee" to the Know It All, to the guy who frighteningly does know more than you but knows he has to put up with this dance to get to the next tier of support. It's disheartening to see humanity like this. Even psychotherapists can lose their cool, and they go to school to learn how to deal with difficult people. This guy probably did not.
Computers are unique items. They aren't like cars where you can tool about in them and then drop them off at the shop for an obvious solution, and borrow someone else's car in the interim. Your best technical support will always be yourself, and it will always be more productive for you to learn what it is you're doing and to worry about it yourself. If you want something that will never sigh at you, get a book. Otherwise, expect people to be people.
posted by adipocere at 3:55 AM on June 4, 2007
I've done tech support for 20 years. You by your own description are not a whacko customer. However you may be streching the limits of these supposed experts. I've done the phone in support bit, and I can tell you that the expert should be able to visualize it and step you through it without any problem.
So I would suggest finding your local Mac Geek. There's at least one that stands above the rest. How do you find him.her???
Call other graphic designers and ask whom they use.
Oh, and you got your $7500.00 worth, so that line never works. What works is "Hey, I've had some great support from you before, but if you can't handle this (if this is something you're not familiar with), can you find/suggest someone who can?"
posted by Gungho at 4:22 AM on June 4, 2007
So I would suggest finding your local Mac Geek. There's at least one that stands above the rest. How do you find him.her???
Call other graphic designers and ask whom they use.
Oh, and you got your $7500.00 worth, so that line never works. What works is "Hey, I've had some great support from you before, but if you can't handle this (if this is something you're not familiar with), can you find/suggest someone who can?"
posted by Gungho at 4:22 AM on June 4, 2007
Oh, and your mac is a few months old, it's still covered under Apple's warranty. Call them. Ask them about buying Applecare, which will fix your mac problems for two more years.
posted by stereo at 5:11 AM on June 4, 2007
posted by stereo at 5:11 AM on June 4, 2007
It can be difficult to diagnose computer problems over the phone. So I think the best solution would be to get someone who can do it in person.
The second-best solution, if you want to stick with these guys, is to use something like Copilot, so that they can see or control what is going on remotely. That should eliminate much of the frustration.
posted by grouse at 5:17 AM on June 4, 2007
The second-best solution, if you want to stick with these guys, is to use something like Copilot, so that they can see or control what is going on remotely. That should eliminate much of the frustration.
posted by grouse at 5:17 AM on June 4, 2007
I second finding a local mac geek, just be sure to use them for the occasional complex issues mostly. Those types of relationships are usually less support centered, more "hey I have one of the weirdest Mac problems come check this out I'll pay ya!"
As someone that does phone support, on site, and house calls on the side, I agree that you were stretching the limits of the person you called. You generally have two types of technicians that you run into...the ones that do it for the paycheck, learn enough to get by, and pray for easy days, and the ones that turned their hobby into a profession and live for the tough calls. This was clearly someone that wanted an easy way out...but I wouldn't take it personally, I work with these types of people....he's more than likely forgotten about it by now.
For phone support, a good technician has infinite patience when faced with an issue that's not readily apparent...and should rather go by the tone of the customer on whether the problem should be escalated or not. A good tech replaces big sighs with, "oh, well ok let's try that again."
posted by samsara at 5:54 AM on June 4, 2007
As someone that does phone support, on site, and house calls on the side, I agree that you were stretching the limits of the person you called. You generally have two types of technicians that you run into...the ones that do it for the paycheck, learn enough to get by, and pray for easy days, and the ones that turned their hobby into a profession and live for the tough calls. This was clearly someone that wanted an easy way out...but I wouldn't take it personally, I work with these types of people....he's more than likely forgotten about it by now.
For phone support, a good technician has infinite patience when faced with an issue that's not readily apparent...and should rather go by the tone of the customer on whether the problem should be escalated or not. A good tech replaces big sighs with, "oh, well ok let's try that again."
posted by samsara at 5:54 AM on June 4, 2007
As an IT person who has significant experience in dealing with people who can barely accurately deliver the instructions I give them to the computer, fire the fucks. There is no excuse for how you are being treated, nor what you are being charged, except in certain special instances as others have noted above.
Being willing to be remote hands for your consultants makes you a saint. Them not being willing to find a time when you and they can be at the problem location at the same time makes them even worse.
I'm completely socially inept (hence why I find server work much more pleasant than desktop support), yet I find myself not sighing at people and being profusely thanked for my help pretty much every time I have to provide phone support, even after I have to talk them through replacing a network card, a motherboard, or whatever else because I'm out of town. If they can't inspire that much confidence, you're definitely with the wrong outfit.
That being said, the Big Sigh, as adipocere called it, might have been called for internally, as it is indeed frustrating to quote a command or sequence of clicks several times before there are no errors, but in no case is it appropriate to get flustered with the user (that's you), who is more than likely just having trouble understanding the jargon-filled mumbling of the tech support person. Once he realized you didn't have the answers he wanted, he should have been able to instruct you on the exact sequence of clicks needed to find the answer on screen and read it to him, preferably from memory, or failing that using another computer as a guide. For $150 an hour, you should be getting someone who is capable of that.
Of course, you should also be getting odd hours service.
posted by wierdo at 5:56 AM on June 4, 2007
Being willing to be remote hands for your consultants makes you a saint. Them not being willing to find a time when you and they can be at the problem location at the same time makes them even worse.
I'm completely socially inept (hence why I find server work much more pleasant than desktop support), yet I find myself not sighing at people and being profusely thanked for my help pretty much every time I have to provide phone support, even after I have to talk them through replacing a network card, a motherboard, or whatever else because I'm out of town. If they can't inspire that much confidence, you're definitely with the wrong outfit.
That being said, the Big Sigh, as adipocere called it, might have been called for internally, as it is indeed frustrating to quote a command or sequence of clicks several times before there are no errors, but in no case is it appropriate to get flustered with the user (that's you), who is more than likely just having trouble understanding the jargon-filled mumbling of the tech support person. Once he realized you didn't have the answers he wanted, he should have been able to instruct you on the exact sequence of clicks needed to find the answer on screen and read it to him, preferably from memory, or failing that using another computer as a guide. For $150 an hour, you should be getting someone who is capable of that.
Of course, you should also be getting odd hours service.
posted by wierdo at 5:56 AM on June 4, 2007
Thank you all. I got just what I needed: a look at the problem from all sides. And while I'm still not comfortable that I have to somehow "measure up" to get people to do jobs they've chosen to do, I do understand how hard those jobs can be. If I was going to be small potatoes to them I wish they would have been honest and told me upfront. I think I'll take Gungho's advice and ask them to refer me to someone else. How they respond to that will tell me pretty much all I need to know. Thanks again.
posted by lpsguy at 8:43 AM on June 4, 2007
posted by lpsguy at 8:43 AM on June 4, 2007
Having personally walked a bunch people with a wide range of computer skills through Apple menu settings, non-Apple router settings, and other technical issues over the phone, I have to second Weirdo's point that the Big Sigh is uncalled for, especially when you're paying that kind of money. I'd compare the role of tech-support-over-the-phone to that of a teacher; when one way of explaining a concept doesn't work, the job is to find a different way until the problem is solved, not make the client/student feel stupid. That's why IT pros get the strange fear/awe/loathing response from the average person.
It's time to fire these folks and find someone else. Go with the advice above: ask some other graphic designer friends who they use and like, and hire that person. I've built a small side business doing Mac support on referrals, and I could make you cry with some of the stories I've heard about the "professional" firms that have preceded me.
(I'm also thinking that if these guys are getting $150/hr, I need to raise my rates.)
posted by idiotking at 8:56 AM on June 4, 2007
It's time to fire these folks and find someone else. Go with the advice above: ask some other graphic designer friends who they use and like, and hire that person. I've built a small side business doing Mac support on referrals, and I could make you cry with some of the stories I've heard about the "professional" firms that have preceded me.
(I'm also thinking that if these guys are getting $150/hr, I need to raise my rates.)
posted by idiotking at 8:56 AM on June 4, 2007
The guy on the phone probably doesn't get $150/hr, but they should be paying him enough to do a lot of handholding and sucking up for the $150/hr client as part of his job.
posted by yohko at 11:46 AM on June 4, 2007
posted by yohko at 11:46 AM on June 4, 2007
PS: Bonus points for telling me the best possible way I can find a great Mac support guy or gal I can rely on.
That would be way easier if you'd tell us where you are.
posted by phearlez at 12:11 PM on June 4, 2007
That would be way easier if you'd tell us where you are.
posted by phearlez at 12:11 PM on June 4, 2007
phearlez ... I'm in Valley Forge, a suburb west of Philadelphia. Some guy named Washington hung out there.
posted by lpsguy at 1:01 PM on June 4, 2007
posted by lpsguy at 1:01 PM on June 4, 2007
Hi there. As someone who does this exact thing (Mac support and consulting) for a living, and in your area, I'll be happy to chime in. (I'd also be interested to know which of the competitors this was, but that's optional.) ;-)
I don't think you're being unreasonable, let alone a "bad client." I can kind of see the tech's point of view though -- in this field, we see a LOT of the same problems repeatedly, and sometimes we have to actively remind ourselves that people outside our profession have their own interests and lives, and that they can't be bothered to know every intricacy of OS X the way we are.
Sometimes things don't really click, and it's not unheard of for people to do the passive-aggressive thing and not call you back, take a long time to call back, or whatever. It may be that on some level, they'd kinda prefer to be left alone, feeling like the added hassle (as they see it) isn't worth it.
Anyway, like I said, I do Mac support/consulting, have been doing it since 2002, and don't work for anyone but myself. Meaning you'll always be dealing with the same person, who will remember how your network was set up from the last time, etc. I also charge a little less than your last company, and have the relevant Apple certifications, yes, but perhaps more importantly, lots of common sense and problem-solving ability. A division of a certain Ivy League university just across the Delaware and north of Trenton relies upon me for their Mac support.
My e-mail's in my profile. Drop me a line if you're interested.
posted by CommonSense at 2:31 PM on June 4, 2007
I don't think you're being unreasonable, let alone a "bad client." I can kind of see the tech's point of view though -- in this field, we see a LOT of the same problems repeatedly, and sometimes we have to actively remind ourselves that people outside our profession have their own interests and lives, and that they can't be bothered to know every intricacy of OS X the way we are.
Sometimes things don't really click, and it's not unheard of for people to do the passive-aggressive thing and not call you back, take a long time to call back, or whatever. It may be that on some level, they'd kinda prefer to be left alone, feeling like the added hassle (as they see it) isn't worth it.
Anyway, like I said, I do Mac support/consulting, have been doing it since 2002, and don't work for anyone but myself. Meaning you'll always be dealing with the same person, who will remember how your network was set up from the last time, etc. I also charge a little less than your last company, and have the relevant Apple certifications, yes, but perhaps more importantly, lots of common sense and problem-solving ability. A division of a certain Ivy League university just across the Delaware and north of Trenton relies upon me for their Mac support.
My e-mail's in my profile. Drop me a line if you're interested.
posted by CommonSense at 2:31 PM on June 4, 2007
When you're operating a workstation literally three feet away from your networking gear, you're probably best off grabbing a Cat 5E patch cable and plugging the workstation into a spare Ethernet outlet. Radios often don't really like being too close to each other.
posted by flabdablet at 3:01 PM on June 4, 2007
posted by flabdablet at 3:01 PM on June 4, 2007
Late to the game here, but everyone's been focusing on the Big Sigh. I think the fact that the "personal" support guy took days to get back to you is a big red flag. I'm in a service-type job and we're supposed to aim for returning all calls within 24 hours. Of course, that's not always possible, but "days" is not acceptable. On top of everything else, you need to get rid of them.
posted by Mavri at 3:06 PM on June 4, 2007
posted by Mavri at 3:06 PM on June 4, 2007
This thread is closed to new comments.
No.
Fix it first.
No.
Not a Mac-pro, but the way they're treating you seems highly unprofessional. Just because they're trained in dealing with computers doesn't mean everyone else is - that's why you're calling them.
posted by Phire at 8:56 PM on June 3, 2007