Fight a ridiculous ticket?

May 27, 2007 5:42 PM

I got pulled over for being in the middle of an intersection when the light turned red. I saw only a few milliseconds of the yellow light because I was behind a big UPS truck. This happens to people all the time, and I'm surprised I got a ticket for this. Any chance of fighting this successfully?

I wasn't speeding, and didn't think I was following too close for my speed. This four-lane one-way road thru the city is rated at 30mph, commonly driven at 40mph. I was going 20, 25 at most.

The signals on this main road are timed like most, and when driving for a few blocks you get a sense of the timing, and if there's a chance of the light turning yellow. I had turned onto this road just a block earlier, so I had no sense of this timing, and didn't realize that I was at the end of a rush-hour pack of cars just fitting into the green-light window.

I've always plead guilty to tickets before, appearing in court to try to explain and try to get the dollar amount lowered. If I try to fight it, should I plead not guilty, or what? (I agree that technically I was in the intersection when it turned red)

This is a fairly common thing for all drivers, being behind a big truck not able to see the signal soon enough. I thought cops were more understanding.

posted by chadparker to travel & transportation (31 comments total)

I feel for ya.

Here how I feel the judge would probably view the case though.

You may indeed have had sufficient traveling distance in relation to the speed of your car and the truck, but if the trucks height hinders your view of the light than you were probably still following too closely and / or you should have switched lanes.

Its probably at least worth a TRY, if you already plan to go to court anyway, go in and see what happens! Good luck.

Fill us in!
posted by crewshell at 5:58 PM on May 27, 2007

It sucks to get a ticket like this. A good thumb rule for estimating yellow light time is 10% of the speed limit (so 3 seconds in a 30 mph zone). That said, you aren't going to get much sympathy from a judge.

Plead no contest and explain this to the judge. He/she may lower your fine.
posted by special-k at 6:03 PM on May 27, 2007

If you only had a glimpse of the light, you -were- following too closely. Also, you aren't supposed to pull into an intersection when the light is yellow (I'm not entirely sure this is what you did, but it sounds like it from your description.) These two things are going to work well enough against you that I doubt the judge would find you anything but guilty.

It's still worth trying to get the fine lowered, though.
posted by Loto at 6:04 PM on May 27, 2007

Also, crewshell is right. It would be hard to argue that you weren't following too close.
posted by special-k at 6:04 PM on May 27, 2007

Yeah, I've got to agree, too. "I was so close to the truck that I couldn't see the light" is hardly going to be a convincing argument. The cop definitely could have been more understanding, but I don't think you've got much of an argumentative leg to stand on.
posted by LairBob at 6:19 PM on May 27, 2007

I don't know about the law in your specific area, but where I live, you're supposed to stop for a yellow unless it's unsafe to do so. Thus you need to identify the reasons that made it unsafe to stop. However, I don't know if this is a universal rule or just the rule in my jurisdiction. YMMV.
posted by acoutu at 6:32 PM on May 27, 2007

Were you over the white line before the light turned yellow? If so, I'd give it a shot. Don't be a smartass, just plead your case politely and succinctly.

Also, the officer has to show up. Be nice to him. Focus on YOUR actions, not his. And... if he is too busy to show up, you may get the ticket tossed by default.
posted by The Deej at 6:33 PM on May 27, 2007

Oregon's vehicle code is pretty clear:
Only drive into an intersection, marked crosswalk or railroad crossing when there is enough time for your vehicle to clear the intersection, crosswalk or crossing. You must not block the path of other vehicles, pedestrians or trains.

Note that this law doesn't specify what color light (if any) is on: if traffic is backed up enough and you entered on a green and didn't clear the intersection before the light turned red, you'd still be ticketable. It's incumbent upon the driver to be able to gauge if they will clear the intersection in time. That applies if your view of the intersection is wide open or obscured for any reason, including by the back end of a UPS truck. Other than getting a ticket, the real-life consequences of entering an intersection blindly include hitting or being hit by another car, hitting a pedestrian or cyclist, or being that annoying guy who blocks cross traffic flow because he insists on trying to squeeze in the turn before the light.
posted by jamaro at 6:38 PM on May 27, 2007

/me breaks out his slide rule...

If you apply the "2 second rule" for keeping distance behind another vehicle and assume you were traveling 50km/h (the speed limit of most city streets) then that would require 27.7m (about 90 feet) distance between you and the truck ahead of you... that's easily the length of five cars, which should be more than enough to see the street lights. I don't think you'd want to mention that to the judge. You also might remember that you are expected to judge traffic not just on the vehicle immediately in front of you. I'm not trying to be a dick, but you can expect arguments similar to these if you take it to court.
posted by furtive at 6:44 PM on May 27, 2007

You're in the wrong. You shouldn't have been so close to the truck that you couldn't see the light. You shouldn't start crossing unless you're 100% certain that you'll make it in time, and have space to cross into. If you're not sure, don't cross the intersection.
Take the ticket as a cheap lesson, and try to be more alert when you drive.
posted by signal at 7:06 PM on May 27, 2007 [3 favorites]

If you can't see the light, don't cross. It's as if you dove blindly into a swimming pool assuming there would be water.
posted by Quarter Pincher at 7:23 PM on May 27, 2007

Dude, you're screwed.

I ride a motorcycle as my primary transportation, which requires strong defensive skills. One of these skills is good following distance. Another is preserving your sightlines. These things transfer to car driving as well. And you missed on both. Best bet is to be reeeeeal nice to the judge and hope he goes easy on you.

Not trying to be mean, rude, or anything like that. When your daily commute consists of making sure no one is able to hit you, though, you learn defensive driving in a hurry.
posted by azpenguin at 7:24 PM on May 27, 2007

I hate to pile on, but that's really dangerous. You were relying on the driver of the truck to be a good driver. If he runs a red light, then you do. That's a good way to get dead.
posted by cmiller at 7:43 PM on May 27, 2007

Depends on the judge. For the future don't enter an intersection if you don't have a clear way out. That includes if a truck is blocking your view.
posted by longsleeves at 7:53 PM on May 27, 2007

If you're in the intersection when your light is red, you deserve a ticket because you're a) holding up traffic and b) likely to dash out of the intersection to stop holding up traffic, which can cause you to endanger a pedestrian or bicyclist crossing with the light while not doing anything stupid, illegal, and dangerous.

I'd agree with you that it's a common thing for drivers, but I wish the cops were less understanding.
posted by Tuwa at 8:37 PM on May 27, 2007 [1 favorite]

This is what lawyers are for. Call one!
posted by konolia at 8:48 PM on May 27, 2007

I failed my first drivers license test because I was in the intersection, I started turning left, light turned yellow while I was in motion, driver in the opposite lane runs the yellow into my path.

What would you do?

I decellerated, let the guy past then finished my left hand turn - and was asked to pull over because I was in motion when there was a red light.

I suppose if you have the time, then to challenge it, but I don't think it's a high percentage play.
posted by porpoise at 8:49 PM on May 27, 2007

"Note that this law doesn't specify what color light (if any) is on: if traffic is backed up enough and you entered on a green and didn't clear the intersection before the light turned red, you'd still be ticketable."

I've always been under the impression that if you were in the intersection before the light turned red, you were OK. You're not allowed to accelerate through the intersection, but if you enter the intersection at a proper speed while the light is yellow, you haven't committed an offense. I might be wrong and would love to see the code saying one way or another. My google searches have only turned up debates on red-light cameras...
posted by the christopher hundreds at 9:14 PM on May 27, 2007

(The reason I think I'm right is because otherwise every time someone turns left after the oncoming traffic stopped for the red light they'd get a ticket.)
posted by the christopher hundreds at 9:19 PM on May 27, 2007

This is what lawyers are for. Call one!

Seconded.

I represent people charged with traffic violations nearly everyday. I can tell you that in well over ninety percent of those cases I am able to get a result for them that they would be very unlikely to get on their own. Whenever I get a ticket in an area where I do not practice, I always call a lawyer.
posted by flarbuse at 9:25 PM on May 27, 2007

This happens to people all the time because a majority of people can barely drive. You're lucky to be alive. If you can't see the condition of the light, it's extremely dangerous to enter the intersection. In the future, do not follow this close to trucks for exactly this reason. Yes, people will cut you off and take up the space you "wasted," but you'll be able to see the signals, and they won't.
posted by odinsdream at 9:48 PM on May 27, 2007

the christopher hundreds: vehicle code varies from state to state. Not all states require a vehicle to clear the intersection before the red. The specific codes from your state (Iowa's, not to be confused with the OPs Oregon) that you asked for are detailed here.

321.257 OFFICIAL TRAFFIC CONTROL SIGNAL.
1. For the purposes of this section "stop at the official traffic control signal" means stopping at the first opportunity at either the clearly marked stop line or before entering the crosswalk or before entering the intersection.
2. Official traffic control signals consisting of colored lights or colored lighted arrows shall regulate vehicle and pedestrian traffic in the following manner:

b. A "steady circular yellow" or "steady yellow arrow" light means vehicular traffic is warned that the related green movement is being terminated and vehicular traffic shall no longer proceed into the intersection and shall stop. If the stop cannot be made in safety, a vehicle may be driven cautiously through the intersection.

Sounds like Iowa drivers and traffic cops have some wiggle room in determining which side of a traffic ticket the very subjective adjective "cautiously" lands.

Obeying traffic lights shouldn't be confused with failure to clear the intersection, which is mentioned in Iowa's vehicle code here:

321.358 STOPPING, STANDING OR PARKING.
No person shall stop, stand, or park a vehicle, except when necessary to avoid conflict with other traffic or in compliance with the directions of a police officer or traffic-control device, in any of the following places:

3. Within an intersection.

I didn't bother reading Iowa's vehicle code closely enough to find out if there's a more direct/clear code which covers clearing the intersection, though a traffic cop could easily use the above to write a ticket.

To get this derail back to the OP's situation, here's the relevant Oregon vehicle code [opens as a PDF].

811.290 Obstructing cross traffic; penalty. (1) A person commits the offense of obstructing cross traffic if the person is operating a vehicle and the person enters an intersection or a marked crosswalk when there is not sufficient space on the other side of the intersection or crosswalk to accommodate the vehicle without obstructing the passage of other vehicles or pedestrians.
811.292 OREGON VEHICLE CODE
(2) The offense described in this section applies whether or not a traffic control device indicates to proceed.
(3) The offense described in this section, obstructing cross traffic, is a Class D traffic violation. [1983 c.338 §614; 1995 c.383 §56]

posted by jamaro at 10:13 PM on May 27, 2007

I was given a speeding ticket for following too closely on a CA freeway where the traffic was moving at 20 miles below the posted limit.

I would suck it up and pay.
posted by brujita at 10:18 PM on May 27, 2007

Rule of thumb: If you can't see the truck's side view mirror, he can't see you, and you're too close.
posted by BozoBurgerBonanza at 4:37 AM on May 28, 2007

I've been in this situation with buses and UPS/FedEx trucks before, and I always try to change lanes before I get to a light.
posted by sluggo at 7:43 AM on May 28, 2007

You bastard, I was trying to get through the intersection from the other direction and you blocked me. I am glad you got ticketed.

Really, why are you complaining about this? You blocked the box, which is a ticketable offense, and you got a ticket. Don't do it again.
posted by caddis at 8:23 AM on May 28, 2007 [1 favorite]

While I agree that you were probably following too closely, if you want to get out of a ticket, query your friends and co-workers in the area for a lawyer they've used to get out of a ticket. Usually you spend a fixed amount, and they just get the case thrown out on technicalities. It will cost several hundred dollars, which you can consider an investment in not having your insurance rates go up.

Personally, though I'd like to see the money go to the county or municipality than to a lawyer, I'd rather keep the money out of the hands of the insurance mafia.
posted by jimfl at 9:46 AM on May 28, 2007

Go to court, admit that you made a mistake, but plead for leniency to preserve your good driving record.

Don't go on and on about how you were unfamiliar with the pattern of this particular intersection. That just sounds like lame excuses or as if you're a REALLY inexperienced driver.

Your ticket is not ridiculous. If the street was that crowded, you should've hung back to make sure that were going to be able to get through the intersection before proceeding though a yellow light.
posted by desuetude at 11:55 AM on May 28, 2007

Thanks for all the honest responses.

Funny, the comments about switching lanes. When I saw the truck, my instinct, like many other drivers, was to switch lanes and go around it, even though it was going the same speed as all the other cars. But I thought, no, I'm in the lane that I need, I'm not in a hurry, I'll be a safe and courteous driver. Had I switched lanes, I would have seen the yellow and stopped.

So I was following too closely. Alright.

And I guess I have a good excuse for going around trucks in the future.


< rant>
The cars sitting on the cross street waiting to go are waiting for the traffic to pass just as much as they are waiting for a green light. Nobody sees solid cars moving in front of them, sees the small signal turn green, and says, well, the light's green, I'm gonna go anyway.

This situation was like the classic Californian signal where cars keep streaming thru the red light. It's annoying to other drivers, but it's not very dangerous, because it's a solid stream of cars. I was part of a stream of cars.

Now if I was spaced way back, like a speeding straggler trying to get through the light, that would be completely different. Those guys piss me off, too, because those are the dangerous ones.
< /rant>
posted by chadparker at 2:22 PM on May 28, 2007

The cars sitting on the cross street waiting to go are waiting for the traffic to pass just as much as they are waiting for a green light. Nobody sees solid cars moving in front of them, sees the small signal turn green, and says, well, the light's green, I'm gonna go anyway.

Of course not. They say, "why is that motherfucker in the middle of the goddamn intersection!? Blocking the intersection isn't wrong because it's a public safety issue (unless you count the prevention of road rage.) It's wrong because it obstructs the roadway -- it gums up the works of proper traffic flow.

Disclaimer: Not a traffic nazi. Would totally cut you a break for, say, disobeying 'no turn on red' signs in the middle of the night.
posted by desuetude at 2:57 PM on May 28, 2007

It's called gridlock. The proper driving etiquette, as far as I'm concerned, is as follows:

Approach intersection; check condition of light.

If light is green, check condition immediately on the other side of the intersection.

If you can fit on the other side, proceed through.

If you cannot fit on the other side, stop moving.

What happens when you don't follow this last step is you ruin the entire cycle. You force people crossing your path to wait for your car to be able to fit on the other side, even if their light turns green. Don't be that guy.
posted by odinsdream at 10:20 AM on May 31, 2007