DejaVuRomanceFilterWithATwist: is it ON or do my sensors need adjusting?
March 19, 2007 12:19 PM Subscribe
DejaVuRomanceFilterWithATwist: is it ON or do my sensors need adjusting? Stakes is HIGH. Hivemind help me call this one. Deets inside!
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ok, where to start... some context: I'm dumb as bricks... drooly dumb... when it comes to picking up on signals from the finer sex. This has caused me to miss out on a couple of opportunities that, quite honestly, would have been SWEET! No regrets tho... and while I can definitely be considered a "nice guy" (with all the trappings that go along with that), I do fine all told. So for what it's worth, I'm not desperate or otherwise pity-worthy. I've delt with these situations before but this one has me stumped.
Here's my situation: I've recently found myself hanging around with a nice girl... only in groups... never 1-on-1. Said girl, is very friendly / outgoing / etc. She strikes me as the kind of girl who has lots of guy friends... and generally likes hanging around with guys (as friends). Know what I mean? She probably has like three brothers or something. Anyway, I *swear* there's been some vibeage recently between us. But given my broken radar who f-ing knows right? We've been hanging around for a couple of months I guess... she comes around every now and again (for various events) and we all have a great time... Lately contact has increased along with direct 1-on-1 communications (I can provide details if it helps - but it's like emails and txts initiated by her that essentially say "we should hang out" - but always in a manor that could be taken either way as - friends or ontheroadtomorethan).
Under normal conditions I would just bite the bullet and find a way to creatively press the issue - if need be, ask her out on an obvious date, etc, etc. Crash and burn if necessary. But here's where things get complicated... Apparently some of my buds secretly (or not so I guess) dig on her. One close friend in particular took a shot, whiffed, and still harbors some feelings / ambitions. My bud doesn't know about my situation at all and for all I know assumes I'm not interested. I think he's received very similar signals from her... But I'm also pretty sure it's not nearly to the same degree (he just doesn't hang around as much for one thing). Also, while I'm into this girl, it's not like "Be Still My Heart" stuff. In fact, I would actually be totally fine being her friend... She has lots of cute friends! LOL
Why am I fretting If I really don't care that much? Not sure to be honest... It's definitely has a lot to do with my history of broken radar and not wanting to miss out yet again (she *is* honestly cool)... and maybe trying to learn a little something new about this game.... I also feel like if there's some kind of weird serial "friendship" thing going on with this girl, it would benefit EVERYONE in my scene if it came to light. Know what I mean? Kind of like: "Hey dudes - you need to recalibrate for this one - assume she's in friend mode", etc.
Anyway, my main concern is that if I push it the way I would normally, it will find it's way back to my bud and make me look sneaky to him and others paying attention (even though I'm pretty sure I'm playing fair here - I mean if it's not broken radar then I didn't initiate no? *sigh*). Also, if I do nothing, then others may find themselves in the same spot (I guess with less baggage though?). Last concern would be the typical "lose her as a friend" worry but I kind of feel like if this is how she operates, she's had to have dealt with this scenario before and therefore the weirdness would be reduced.
All advice is welcomed... But you know, be nice (if possible?). I'm specifically interested in any creative schemes that might allow me to suss out the sitch without fully committing / exposing my flank (LOL - sorry).
Thanks Team Metafilter!
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ok, where to start... some context: I'm dumb as bricks... drooly dumb... when it comes to picking up on signals from the finer sex. This has caused me to miss out on a couple of opportunities that, quite honestly, would have been SWEET! No regrets tho... and while I can definitely be considered a "nice guy" (with all the trappings that go along with that), I do fine all told. So for what it's worth, I'm not desperate or otherwise pity-worthy. I've delt with these situations before but this one has me stumped.
Here's my situation: I've recently found myself hanging around with a nice girl... only in groups... never 1-on-1. Said girl, is very friendly / outgoing / etc. She strikes me as the kind of girl who has lots of guy friends... and generally likes hanging around with guys (as friends). Know what I mean? She probably has like three brothers or something. Anyway, I *swear* there's been some vibeage recently between us. But given my broken radar who f-ing knows right? We've been hanging around for a couple of months I guess... she comes around every now and again (for various events) and we all have a great time... Lately contact has increased along with direct 1-on-1 communications (I can provide details if it helps - but it's like emails and txts initiated by her that essentially say "we should hang out" - but always in a manor that could be taken either way as - friends or ontheroadtomorethan).
Under normal conditions I would just bite the bullet and find a way to creatively press the issue - if need be, ask her out on an obvious date, etc, etc. Crash and burn if necessary. But here's where things get complicated... Apparently some of my buds secretly (or not so I guess) dig on her. One close friend in particular took a shot, whiffed, and still harbors some feelings / ambitions. My bud doesn't know about my situation at all and for all I know assumes I'm not interested. I think he's received very similar signals from her... But I'm also pretty sure it's not nearly to the same degree (he just doesn't hang around as much for one thing). Also, while I'm into this girl, it's not like "Be Still My Heart" stuff. In fact, I would actually be totally fine being her friend... She has lots of cute friends! LOL
Why am I fretting If I really don't care that much? Not sure to be honest... It's definitely has a lot to do with my history of broken radar and not wanting to miss out yet again (she *is* honestly cool)... and maybe trying to learn a little something new about this game.... I also feel like if there's some kind of weird serial "friendship" thing going on with this girl, it would benefit EVERYONE in my scene if it came to light. Know what I mean? Kind of like: "Hey dudes - you need to recalibrate for this one - assume she's in friend mode", etc.
Anyway, my main concern is that if I push it the way I would normally, it will find it's way back to my bud and make me look sneaky to him and others paying attention (even though I'm pretty sure I'm playing fair here - I mean if it's not broken radar then I didn't initiate no? *sigh*). Also, if I do nothing, then others may find themselves in the same spot (I guess with less baggage though?). Last concern would be the typical "lose her as a friend" worry but I kind of feel like if this is how she operates, she's had to have dealt with this scenario before and therefore the weirdness would be reduced.
All advice is welcomed... But you know, be nice (if possible?). I'm specifically interested in any creative schemes that might allow me to suss out the sitch without fully committing / exposing my flank (LOL - sorry).
Thanks Team Metafilter!
One close friend in particular took a shot, whiffed, and still harbors some feelings / ambitions.
I guess "whiffed" means she turned him down? Big shoI'm not surprised.
This girl is playing you all, and doing a great job. She likes the attention. She doesn't want one boyfriend when she can have all the boyfriends. And I think you want her because everyone wants her and you want to be the one that wins, not because you want her. But it's not going to work out. You're gonna be another fool following her around. Don't be that fool. I'm basing this advice on knowing girls and seeing situations like this- you're not gonna get her, and you're gonna look stupid following her around.
But if you're really going to do this, you need to be real about it. Go on some real dates. If you get to the point where you want a real relationship, ask for one. No bullshit, no games. My guess is, she's not gonna go for it. At which point, extract yourself and move along. Don't join her harem, drooling and following her around. Again, I've seen it, and it ain't pretty.
I also feel like if there's some kind of weird serial "friendship" thing going on with this girl, it would benefit EVERYONE in my scene if it came to light.
It already has come to light- you just explained it to us. People know how people act when they're doing it in public ways. No expose needed here; she's not doing anything wrong. All you need to do is figure out what you want and go from there.
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 12:42 PM on March 19, 2007 [8 favorites]
I guess "whiffed" means she turned him down? Big shoI'm not surprised.
This girl is playing you all, and doing a great job. She likes the attention. She doesn't want one boyfriend when she can have all the boyfriends. And I think you want her because everyone wants her and you want to be the one that wins, not because you want her. But it's not going to work out. You're gonna be another fool following her around. Don't be that fool. I'm basing this advice on knowing girls and seeing situations like this- you're not gonna get her, and you're gonna look stupid following her around.
But if you're really going to do this, you need to be real about it. Go on some real dates. If you get to the point where you want a real relationship, ask for one. No bullshit, no games. My guess is, she's not gonna go for it. At which point, extract yourself and move along. Don't join her harem, drooling and following her around. Again, I've seen it, and it ain't pretty.
I also feel like if there's some kind of weird serial "friendship" thing going on with this girl, it would benefit EVERYONE in my scene if it came to light.
It already has come to light- you just explained it to us. People know how people act when they're doing it in public ways. No expose needed here; she's not doing anything wrong. All you need to do is figure out what you want and go from there.
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 12:42 PM on March 19, 2007 [8 favorites]
Have a bunch of drinks together at the next opportunity, whether in a group setting or not. Give her a kiss. See how she responds. Proceed from there. If it goes horribly, blame the alcohol.
posted by infinityjinx at 12:47 PM on March 19, 2007
posted by infinityjinx at 12:47 PM on March 19, 2007
The next time she says, "we should hang out," you should reply, "sounds good. Do you want to go see 300 with me on Friday night?" (Obviously insert your own preferred activity and available date night. But choose a Friday or Saturday night, as that makes it more clear that it's a date than a Tuesday would.) If she says no without suggesting an alternate day or activity, she's probably not interested in dating you. If she is interested, you'll go out with her and see what happens.
As for your friend, I'd mention it to him, but probably not until after I heard back from her. Then you can say, "I'm seeing a movie with Girl on Friday night, and it seems sort of date-like, and I wanted to make sure you'd be cool with it before I do anything." That way, you don't make an issue of it if you don't have to, but you also give your friend the sense that he has some control over the situation.
Good luck!
posted by decathecting at 12:56 PM on March 19, 2007 [1 favorite]
As for your friend, I'd mention it to him, but probably not until after I heard back from her. Then you can say, "I'm seeing a movie with Girl on Friday night, and it seems sort of date-like, and I wanted to make sure you'd be cool with it before I do anything." That way, you don't make an issue of it if you don't have to, but you also give your friend the sense that he has some control over the situation.
Good luck!
posted by decathecting at 12:56 PM on March 19, 2007 [1 favorite]
Rejection is part of the human experience. If you can't bring yourself to ask someone out without being 99% sure of how the request will be received, then you are either going to be really lonely or really anxious for the rest of your young fruitful days.
So who cares if your radar is broken, or whether she said "no" to your friend. The only place where these affect your chances is in your head. Which seems to be quite a crowded place indeed. How about you clear some of this brush and gather a calm perspective on the matter. When you ask if she wants to go out sometime, just you and she, you can tell her that you thought you had detected some interest from her and that you wouldn't have bothered her otherwise, since you know that most of her friends are male and that she must deal with this all the time. If she turns you down, she'll be grateful to you for the chance to do so kindly and quietly. And it will hurt. Congratulations! Love sucks.
Sure, you'll feel dumb for a while if that's the case. But feeling dumb around one girl is the kind of thing that makes it easier to notice others, if you get my drift. And who knows, perhaps your radar isn't broken after all. In which case, all this froth for nothing.
ThePinkSuperhero has offered you a glimpse through a flickering window into the nebulous world of unconscious female subterfuge. Drink deeply of the view.
posted by hermitosis at 12:59 PM on March 19, 2007 [1 favorite]
So who cares if your radar is broken, or whether she said "no" to your friend. The only place where these affect your chances is in your head. Which seems to be quite a crowded place indeed. How about you clear some of this brush and gather a calm perspective on the matter. When you ask if she wants to go out sometime, just you and she, you can tell her that you thought you had detected some interest from her and that you wouldn't have bothered her otherwise, since you know that most of her friends are male and that she must deal with this all the time. If she turns you down, she'll be grateful to you for the chance to do so kindly and quietly. And it will hurt. Congratulations! Love sucks.
Sure, you'll feel dumb for a while if that's the case. But feeling dumb around one girl is the kind of thing that makes it easier to notice others, if you get my drift. And who knows, perhaps your radar isn't broken after all. In which case, all this froth for nothing.
ThePinkSuperhero has offered you a glimpse through a flickering window into the nebulous world of unconscious female subterfuge. Drink deeply of the view.
posted by hermitosis at 12:59 PM on March 19, 2007 [1 favorite]
I'm female, with a lot of male friends with whom I hang out alone. It is sometimes hard to make it 100% clear that I'm only looking for friends, but I find that mentioning a guy I have a crush on, or a guy I've dated or am currently dating usually makes it pretty obvious that I'm not interested in anything romantic. Does she ever bring up other guys with you?
posted by amro at 1:08 PM on March 19, 2007
posted by amro at 1:08 PM on March 19, 2007
Well no shit all her male friends like her. Why are you even surprised by that? That is an assumption that you should make when it comes to girls with a lot of male friends. Be shocked when that isn't true.
Now, this really depends on the kind of girl she is. Does she just like having male friends or is she an attention whore? If she just has a lot of male friends, warn your bros, and then just go ahead and ask her. If she says no, it happens, life moves on; get drunk and hit on her female friends. The circle of life.
However, if she's an attention whore who loves having male attention...well....that's a little more complicated.
That kind of girl is one who loves attention without the comittment - she gets to feel great about herself while at the same time not having to take an emotional risk on any one person. And with all the guys pining for her, she always has a fallback person right there ready to go. She love playing games and even if you got into a relationship with her you not only have to deal with someone who enjoys games, you're also going to have to put up with all her bullshit male friends who are going to try to move in on you. Why the hell waste your time on that?
But, if you like a challenge and don't mind playing your own games, you've got a few options. First and foremost, how much do you value your friends? Bros before hos, as they say so I'd warn them but if you don't value their friendship, just start right away. People will say 'just ask her out' but that's bogus. Do you want a relationship with her or do you want to get shot down? If you want to get shot down, then you have a rejection fetish that I can't relate too - but if you want to actualy get her to be interested in you, you basically need to move out of the friends camp and need to set yourself out among the pack.
1) Be charming, funny, witty, cool, collected, strong, resiliant, self-assured, awesome.
2) Don't flirt with her, fawn over her, let her get any unrequited attetion from you. If she grabs your arm, gently slide it off. When she smiles and bats her eyes at you, do a half smile back but act cool. When she wants compliments, don't give her any. When she fishes for attention, don't respond. Basically don't give her the attention she seeks. You'll know this is working when she asks your male friends if you're gay.
3) Become desireable - date other girls. Bring these girls to these group outings, hit on a pretty girl at the bar, make out with one in the corner. Let her know that other girls desire you. In her little world, she has the power - if you remove that, you become interesting.
Will this work? Yes. Do you really want it to work? Who the hell knows. I hope she's pretty ebecause you're not only going to piss off your friends, you're going to end up with a girl who is going to fall for the mystery of you rather than who you really are and unless she's rich, she's probably not worth it. And hell, if you're lucky, step 3 might actually introduce you to a girl who is actually worth your time, effort, and abilities.
posted by Stynxno at 1:35 PM on March 19, 2007 [5 favorites]
Now, this really depends on the kind of girl she is. Does she just like having male friends or is she an attention whore? If she just has a lot of male friends, warn your bros, and then just go ahead and ask her. If she says no, it happens, life moves on; get drunk and hit on her female friends. The circle of life.
However, if she's an attention whore who loves having male attention...well....that's a little more complicated.
That kind of girl is one who loves attention without the comittment - she gets to feel great about herself while at the same time not having to take an emotional risk on any one person. And with all the guys pining for her, she always has a fallback person right there ready to go. She love playing games and even if you got into a relationship with her you not only have to deal with someone who enjoys games, you're also going to have to put up with all her bullshit male friends who are going to try to move in on you. Why the hell waste your time on that?
But, if you like a challenge and don't mind playing your own games, you've got a few options. First and foremost, how much do you value your friends? Bros before hos, as they say so I'd warn them but if you don't value their friendship, just start right away. People will say 'just ask her out' but that's bogus. Do you want a relationship with her or do you want to get shot down? If you want to get shot down, then you have a rejection fetish that I can't relate too - but if you want to actualy get her to be interested in you, you basically need to move out of the friends camp and need to set yourself out among the pack.
1) Be charming, funny, witty, cool, collected, strong, resiliant, self-assured, awesome.
2) Don't flirt with her, fawn over her, let her get any unrequited attetion from you. If she grabs your arm, gently slide it off. When she smiles and bats her eyes at you, do a half smile back but act cool. When she wants compliments, don't give her any. When she fishes for attention, don't respond. Basically don't give her the attention she seeks. You'll know this is working when she asks your male friends if you're gay.
3) Become desireable - date other girls. Bring these girls to these group outings, hit on a pretty girl at the bar, make out with one in the corner. Let her know that other girls desire you. In her little world, she has the power - if you remove that, you become interesting.
Will this work? Yes. Do you really want it to work? Who the hell knows. I hope she's pretty ebecause you're not only going to piss off your friends, you're going to end up with a girl who is going to fall for the mystery of you rather than who you really are and unless she's rich, she's probably not worth it. And hell, if you're lucky, step 3 might actually introduce you to a girl who is actually worth your time, effort, and abilities.
posted by Stynxno at 1:35 PM on March 19, 2007 [5 favorites]
This girl is playing you all, and doing a great job. She likes the attention. She doesn't want one boyfriend when she can have all the boyfriends
Nailed it. And I'm glad a woman said it so it didn't sound sexist coming from me. She doesn't have any girlfriends because she can't manipulate them with sex, and she only likes to be around people she can control. I'm sure she never does what amro says and mentions a b.f., because she would lose her power over all you guys if she didn't make herself appear available.
I don't like to pretend I can know individual people over the internet, so for all i know she's a great person and you should go for it. But my general rule is to run a mile from this personality type. They make poor friends and worse girlfriends. (if you were dating, do you think she would suddenly end all her ambiguous relationships with all the other guys? or would she keep them around to make you jealous?)
posted by drjimmy11 at 1:39 PM on March 19, 2007
Nailed it. And I'm glad a woman said it so it didn't sound sexist coming from me. She doesn't have any girlfriends because she can't manipulate them with sex, and she only likes to be around people she can control. I'm sure she never does what amro says and mentions a b.f., because she would lose her power over all you guys if she didn't make herself appear available.
I don't like to pretend I can know individual people over the internet, so for all i know she's a great person and you should go for it. But my general rule is to run a mile from this personality type. They make poor friends and worse girlfriends. (if you were dating, do you think she would suddenly end all her ambiguous relationships with all the other guys? or would she keep them around to make you jealous?)
posted by drjimmy11 at 1:39 PM on March 19, 2007
There are plenty of girls who hang out with guys because they like to. It doesn't mean she's "playing you", for christsake. Ask her out. It sounds like she has no trouble saying "no" if she's not into anything romantic, so why not go for it? As for your pal who likes her, um, it's not like they ever dated, so who cares? She doesn't belong to him just because he thinks she's hot.
posted by oneirodynia at 1:40 PM on March 19, 2007
posted by oneirodynia at 1:40 PM on March 19, 2007
Talk to your bud. Depending on what he says, then ask her out. If it seem like you bud would be bothered by you asking her out, LET IT GO.
There are plenty of cute women in the world. Go find another one.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 1:43 PM on March 19, 2007
There are plenty of cute women in the world. Go find another one.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 1:43 PM on March 19, 2007
There are plenty of girls who hang out with guys because they like to.
yes. And unlike this girl, they make it clear they're not available/interested as soon as it becomes an issue- or sooner.
By all means go for it, but be prepared to possibly find out some rather unpleasant things about her.
I read a good story once in a book about Benny Hill. Benny made a date with a pretty girl to meet outside the movies. When he got there, he found she had made a date with another guy too. Instead of fighting over her, Benny and the other guy left her on the sidewalk and went to see the movie together.
posted by drjimmy11 at 1:53 PM on March 19, 2007 [2 favorites]
yes. And unlike this girl, they make it clear they're not available/interested as soon as it becomes an issue- or sooner.
By all means go for it, but be prepared to possibly find out some rather unpleasant things about her.
I read a good story once in a book about Benny Hill. Benny made a date with a pretty girl to meet outside the movies. When he got there, he found she had made a date with another guy too. Instead of fighting over her, Benny and the other guy left her on the sidewalk and went to see the movie together.
posted by drjimmy11 at 1:53 PM on March 19, 2007 [2 favorites]
Yes. And unlike this girl, they make it clear they're not available/interested as soon as it becomes an issue- or sooner.
Agreed. The fact that the friend was able to make some sort of move on her, be shot down, and STILL have ambitions makes me suspect she's a master at the honey approach.
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 2:01 PM on March 19, 2007 [1 favorite]
Agreed. The fact that the friend was able to make some sort of move on her, be shot down, and STILL have ambitions makes me suspect she's a master at the honey approach.
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 2:01 PM on March 19, 2007 [1 favorite]
There has been a lot of good advice in this thread so what I intend to add is largely redundant. Still, I would suggest essentially running the opposite direction from the attention whore.
First off, she clearly enjoys receiving attention from a large group of guys, and keeps them in-line through ambiguous flirting, while I do not know nearly enough about this girl to make a more detailed judgment I would say that if she wanted a boyfriend she would have one.
Secondly, if you decide you do want her acting disinterested and "over it" is more likely to set you apart from the pack then just fawning over her and an awkward confession of desire.
Thirdly, the best thing you can do is to extract yourself from this circle as it relates to her, and try and explore other avenues, don't do this to play games, do this to expand your social circle, the number of opportunities with less baggage you have, and in turn you will be more of a mystery.
Finally, if you do decide you want to jump off that cliff, girls like this really react positively to half-compliments, for example don't tell her that she looks good, tell her that she looks okay today, it will make you seem like more of a challenge. I do not recommend games like that, but from my own experience they work very well with this type of girl. Still she is probably not worth the inevitable trouble with your friends, and you are better off just telling her you are busy when she wants to get together.
posted by BobbyDigital at 2:37 PM on March 19, 2007
First off, she clearly enjoys receiving attention from a large group of guys, and keeps them in-line through ambiguous flirting, while I do not know nearly enough about this girl to make a more detailed judgment I would say that if she wanted a boyfriend she would have one.
Secondly, if you decide you do want her acting disinterested and "over it" is more likely to set you apart from the pack then just fawning over her and an awkward confession of desire.
Thirdly, the best thing you can do is to extract yourself from this circle as it relates to her, and try and explore other avenues, don't do this to play games, do this to expand your social circle, the number of opportunities with less baggage you have, and in turn you will be more of a mystery.
Finally, if you do decide you want to jump off that cliff, girls like this really react positively to half-compliments, for example don't tell her that she looks good, tell her that she looks okay today, it will make you seem like more of a challenge. I do not recommend games like that, but from my own experience they work very well with this type of girl. Still she is probably not worth the inevitable trouble with your friends, and you are better off just telling her you are busy when she wants to get together.
posted by BobbyDigital at 2:37 PM on March 19, 2007
Put me in the "no games" camp. I could see the possibility of this girl liking the attention. I don't know, some people like that pursuit and feeling pursued game, but on the other hand, if this girl *is* interested in you and is just bad at letting you know, you'll just be circling around each other until someone 'fesses up to something. So here's something from a another point of view. Also known as, me:
I'm terrible with the "letting someone know I'm interested in them," bit so if someone's playing games I'm just as dense on picking up signals from guys as you claim to be on picking them up from girls. I work from the a priori assumption that the guy is not interested in me in that way. If this girl is also like that, then any clever strategies you come up with won't work because she can't read them.
This probably has its root in the fact that I'm also one of those girls who spent their formative years an extreme tomboy with a large group of guy friends I always hung out with at a very small school. This probably adds to my denseness since I wasn't the dating type ("Ugh, can't date X! He's like a brother!") for a long time.
More recently, since I've moved away from that small school and my group of guys, I've gotten into awkward situations where a guy thinks I'm flirting with him when honestly I don't honestly know how to, but I'm just used to picking up conversation with guys and joking around with them without thinking much about how my keen interest in a conversation topic can be interpreted as a keen interest in them. There was one guy I was getting to know got who got flustered when I offered to buy him a cup of coffee as a show of comaraderi, and another who asked me for my number after I commented on his awesome bass skills and had a long conversation about learning how to play. It's made me a bit more guarded about what I say because I feel terrible when misunderstandings come up.
Also I'm still having a hard time with the difference between cultivating a boyfriend vs. a boy friend. For example, someone might be asking me out or showing interesting in something I'm interested in because they're trying to run their game on me, but I'll think "Oh cool! Awesome, let's hang out!" or "I'm so glad I met someone who also likes X!" but I'm not thinking, date because I always assume that it's a friendship thing unless it's very obvious that it's a date request.
Also...I shoot guys down because, if I'm not interested, I'm not. My lack of experience in the dating field might make my rejections not as diplomatic, but quite honestly, I'll say no because I mean no, though I'm more than happy to hang out with you if you want to play some some video games because I think you're cool, just not in that way. Probably not the best way to handle situations like this, but unfortunately I don't know any better.
But going back to the beginning of this longwinded post, I sometimes I make extremely good guy friends and even if I become interested in them it's hard for me to either make a move or see them interested in me because of the "he's my homeboy" mindset. And many, many times my skillset with interacting with guys turned possible interests into friends and then I don't know what to do at that point so I just shrug and figure, "Oh well, another friend for me." I might think I put myself out there and have shown interest, but more often than not, they don't have a clue because I just don't know how.
Hmm, I might've lost my point, but I guess my point is, I'm it's hard to say exactly what's going on here, and I can see arguments for both "attention seeker" or "just dense around boys," but the quickest way to take care of this situation is to just ask her out if you're interested. And if you're not feeling it, you don't have to, just don't regret not having made a move.
posted by kkokkodalk at 2:37 PM on March 19, 2007 [1 favorite]
I'm terrible with the "letting someone know I'm interested in them," bit so if someone's playing games I'm just as dense on picking up signals from guys as you claim to be on picking them up from girls. I work from the a priori assumption that the guy is not interested in me in that way. If this girl is also like that, then any clever strategies you come up with won't work because she can't read them.
This probably has its root in the fact that I'm also one of those girls who spent their formative years an extreme tomboy with a large group of guy friends I always hung out with at a very small school. This probably adds to my denseness since I wasn't the dating type ("Ugh, can't date X! He's like a brother!") for a long time.
More recently, since I've moved away from that small school and my group of guys, I've gotten into awkward situations where a guy thinks I'm flirting with him when honestly I don't honestly know how to, but I'm just used to picking up conversation with guys and joking around with them without thinking much about how my keen interest in a conversation topic can be interpreted as a keen interest in them. There was one guy I was getting to know got who got flustered when I offered to buy him a cup of coffee as a show of comaraderi, and another who asked me for my number after I commented on his awesome bass skills and had a long conversation about learning how to play. It's made me a bit more guarded about what I say because I feel terrible when misunderstandings come up.
Also I'm still having a hard time with the difference between cultivating a boyfriend vs. a boy friend. For example, someone might be asking me out or showing interesting in something I'm interested in because they're trying to run their game on me, but I'll think "Oh cool! Awesome, let's hang out!" or "I'm so glad I met someone who also likes X!" but I'm not thinking, date because I always assume that it's a friendship thing unless it's very obvious that it's a date request.
Also...I shoot guys down because, if I'm not interested, I'm not. My lack of experience in the dating field might make my rejections not as diplomatic, but quite honestly, I'll say no because I mean no, though I'm more than happy to hang out with you if you want to play some some video games because I think you're cool, just not in that way. Probably not the best way to handle situations like this, but unfortunately I don't know any better.
But going back to the beginning of this longwinded post, I sometimes I make extremely good guy friends and even if I become interested in them it's hard for me to either make a move or see them interested in me because of the "he's my homeboy" mindset. And many, many times my skillset with interacting with guys turned possible interests into friends and then I don't know what to do at that point so I just shrug and figure, "Oh well, another friend for me." I might think I put myself out there and have shown interest, but more often than not, they don't have a clue because I just don't know how.
Hmm, I might've lost my point, but I guess my point is, I'm it's hard to say exactly what's going on here, and I can see arguments for both "attention seeker" or "just dense around boys," but the quickest way to take care of this situation is to just ask her out if you're interested. And if you're not feeling it, you don't have to, just don't regret not having made a move.
posted by kkokkodalk at 2:37 PM on March 19, 2007 [1 favorite]
Response by poster: I am really surprised the other posters are so paranoid about this girl. Having lots of guy friends does not necessarily equal "Honey-Pot Attention Whore Queen". She may just be a tomboy--hell, that's why most of my friends are guys. Well, that, and talking to girls turns my mouth to mush and gives me the anxious willies. But if that's the case with her she might not be playing your field, if you know what I mean.
Anyway, I would not read too much into her behavior. Why bother spending time ruminating on her motives? Just ask your dude if it's cool with you making the move, make the move, and either roll with it or get shot down. You are (probably) under 25 and this all seems like a terribly important drama, but it really isn't. There is a girl, a dude, and his bro. You respect all people involved and it doesn't have to turn out anything big. In the end, you'll either be sharing drinks with her or with him in the bar.
posted by Anonymous at 2:52 PM on March 19, 2007
Anyway, I would not read too much into her behavior. Why bother spending time ruminating on her motives? Just ask your dude if it's cool with you making the move, make the move, and either roll with it or get shot down. You are (probably) under 25 and this all seems like a terribly important drama, but it really isn't. There is a girl, a dude, and his bro. You respect all people involved and it doesn't have to turn out anything big. In the end, you'll either be sharing drinks with her or with him in the bar.
posted by Anonymous at 2:52 PM on March 19, 2007
FWIW, I say listen to kkokkodalk (just don't try to type her name). Granted that there are some who manipulatively court attention, who among us knows whether your friend is of that type -- or whether your friend whiffboy has received a completely different signal from what you have (could be more or less inspiring), or whether she's more into you? We might as well all suppose that you have good instincts and would have picked up on any evil tendencies, and that you're only uncertain as to the degree of interest she has in you. On that last score, it seems to me very hard to render an informed opinion based on what you've said.
The only point on which I'd opine is an abstract one: query whether it makes sense to ask your friend's permission. It mostly depends on comparing the value of your relationship with whiffboy against the potential relationship with coolgirl. But there's something strange about giving whiffboy a potential veto, esp. when he has had first dibs . . . and coolgirl isn't his chattel. Note, too, that you may not be able to live with the veto, and the worst case scenario may be to solicit but not abide by his wishes.
posted by Clyde Mnestra at 3:10 PM on March 19, 2007
The only point on which I'd opine is an abstract one: query whether it makes sense to ask your friend's permission. It mostly depends on comparing the value of your relationship with whiffboy against the potential relationship with coolgirl. But there's something strange about giving whiffboy a potential veto, esp. when he has had first dibs . . . and coolgirl isn't his chattel. Note, too, that you may not be able to live with the veto, and the worst case scenario may be to solicit but not abide by his wishes.
posted by Clyde Mnestra at 3:10 PM on March 19, 2007
Yeah, I'm totally confused about everyone's interpretation of this girl's motives. According to the poster, she has lots of cute girlfriends; there's nothing in the post to suggest she's leading a "harem" of drooling guys around.
If she has male friends and she's cute, she's of course had to deal with one or two wanting more at some point. That happens. It's nobody's fault.
Anyway, I say try to hang out with her one on one and see how it goes.
posted by lunalaguna at 3:22 PM on March 19, 2007 [1 favorite]
If she has male friends and she's cute, she's of course had to deal with one or two wanting more at some point. That happens. It's nobody's fault.
Anyway, I say try to hang out with her one on one and see how it goes.
posted by lunalaguna at 3:22 PM on March 19, 2007 [1 favorite]
I'm surprised by some of the ire in this thread towards the girl. Sure, I try to make it clear to a guy I want to be friends with that I'm not interested in more, but I always feel like I'm being a little conceited when I do so. Who am I to assume that he wants to date me? Is it really this girl's responsibility to make her intentions clear, with the alternative being that she's playing games or attention whoring? Isn't it possible that it just hasn't crossed her mind that the poster likes her?
posted by amro at 3:25 PM on March 19, 2007
posted by amro at 3:25 PM on March 19, 2007
I'm surprised by some of the ire in this thread towards the girl.
I knew somebody was going to say this at some point. Look, there's ire and then there's being realistic about the situation. Some girls like attention (ok, who doesn't like attention?), and some girls manage to get and hold onto a lot of it. I don't think that's a bad thing. Like I said, I've known girls that can command an incredible amount of male attention and devotion- it's some mix of beauty, charisma, and kindness that makes believers out of hordes of men. It's not that these girls are evil; I don't think most that do it realize it on all levels. But it's something to look out for if you're not interested in being somebody's fool.
Is it really this girl's responsibility to make her intentions clear, with the alternative being that she's playing games or attention whoring?
No, of course not- she can do whatever she wants. We can't know what this girl wants. But we do know that the poster wants to (date her, I guess?), so he's the one that has to put it on the line here, and considering the facts of the situation *as he laid them out*, I thought it would be wise to look out for behavior that suggests that she's more interested in being adored by millions than settling down with one guy. And again, that's not a crime, and I don't think it's uncommon for really young women (and I'm guessing we're talking about really young people here). Just something to keep in mind.
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 3:44 PM on March 19, 2007 [1 favorite]
I knew somebody was going to say this at some point. Look, there's ire and then there's being realistic about the situation. Some girls like attention (ok, who doesn't like attention?), and some girls manage to get and hold onto a lot of it. I don't think that's a bad thing. Like I said, I've known girls that can command an incredible amount of male attention and devotion- it's some mix of beauty, charisma, and kindness that makes believers out of hordes of men. It's not that these girls are evil; I don't think most that do it realize it on all levels. But it's something to look out for if you're not interested in being somebody's fool.
Is it really this girl's responsibility to make her intentions clear, with the alternative being that she's playing games or attention whoring?
No, of course not- she can do whatever she wants. We can't know what this girl wants. But we do know that the poster wants to (date her, I guess?), so he's the one that has to put it on the line here, and considering the facts of the situation *as he laid them out*, I thought it would be wise to look out for behavior that suggests that she's more interested in being adored by millions than settling down with one guy. And again, that's not a crime, and I don't think it's uncommon for really young women (and I'm guessing we're talking about really young people here). Just something to keep in mind.
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 3:44 PM on March 19, 2007 [1 favorite]
Listen to ThePinkSuperhero. Don't be that guy.
You don't even sound like you want this girl - you even admit it. This whole situation is interesting and fun and kind of mysterious, and you think you'd love to figure it out, but the "does she or doesn't she" is the fun part. I guarantee that any relationship would be nowhere near as intriguing as this game right now.
posted by KAS at 3:54 PM on March 19, 2007
You don't even sound like you want this girl - you even admit it. This whole situation is interesting and fun and kind of mysterious, and you think you'd love to figure it out, but the "does she or doesn't she" is the fun part. I guarantee that any relationship would be nowhere near as intriguing as this game right now.
posted by KAS at 3:54 PM on March 19, 2007
I guarantee that any relationship would be nowhere near as intriguing as this game right now.
"Guarantee"? I think the only reasonable conclusion from this statement is that KAS=coolgirl.
Please, no applause. I think I saw this in Slylock Fox once.
posted by Clyde Mnestra at 4:05 PM on March 19, 2007
"Guarantee"? I think the only reasonable conclusion from this statement is that KAS=coolgirl.
Please, no applause. I think I saw this in Slylock Fox once.
posted by Clyde Mnestra at 4:05 PM on March 19, 2007
What kkokkodalk said. Not what ThePinkSuperhero said. We have no reason to assume the girl's "playing you all, and doing a great job." I don't care if a female said it, I think that's a sexist assumption.
Like kkokkodalk, I was one of the girls with lots of male friends (I don't understand girly-girl stuff so my only female friends were the tomboyish ones like me), and I was completely clueless if they wanted to be more than friends, unless they made an overt move. My default assumption was that they weren't interested in me. I wasn't into playing games with anyone—I just liked their company. And if I had a crush on one of my male friends, as I often did, I wouldn't show it because I assumed they weren't interested and it would just freak them out.
As it turned out, at least once that was a mistaken assumption. But what did I know? I was young, and shy, and stupid. If I was in that situation now, I would make a move. But I didn't know that when I was 20.
So I think the poster should just ask her out. Let the friend know if you want, but he doesn't have to give permission for this. It might turn out that she's not interested, but she might be.
"Also, if I do nothing, then others may find themselves in the same spot..."
It doesn't matter. People don't necessarily think logically in matters of infatuation, and besides, what happens between you and this girl isn't necessarily what's going to happen between someone else and this girl. You think that if you ask her out and she says no that other people are later going to say "She turned [anonymous] down so she won't go out with me?" That's unrealistic, IMHO.
posted by litlnemo at 5:39 PM on March 19, 2007
Like kkokkodalk, I was one of the girls with lots of male friends (I don't understand girly-girl stuff so my only female friends were the tomboyish ones like me), and I was completely clueless if they wanted to be more than friends, unless they made an overt move. My default assumption was that they weren't interested in me. I wasn't into playing games with anyone—I just liked their company. And if I had a crush on one of my male friends, as I often did, I wouldn't show it because I assumed they weren't interested and it would just freak them out.
As it turned out, at least once that was a mistaken assumption. But what did I know? I was young, and shy, and stupid. If I was in that situation now, I would make a move. But I didn't know that when I was 20.
So I think the poster should just ask her out. Let the friend know if you want, but he doesn't have to give permission for this. It might turn out that she's not interested, but she might be.
"Also, if I do nothing, then others may find themselves in the same spot..."
It doesn't matter. People don't necessarily think logically in matters of infatuation, and besides, what happens between you and this girl isn't necessarily what's going to happen between someone else and this girl. You think that if you ask her out and she says no that other people are later going to say "She turned [anonymous] down so she won't go out with me?" That's unrealistic, IMHO.
posted by litlnemo at 5:39 PM on March 19, 2007
If your friend was inerested and working up his nerve, you might want to give him a clear field. But he took his shot and missed. He has no claim, the field is yours. Ask her out, one-on-one. Good luck!
posted by LarryC at 7:44 PM on March 19, 2007
posted by LarryC at 7:44 PM on March 19, 2007
Argh, for--. It doesn't matter if she's playing or oblivious or a lesbian or anything else, whatever you do don't be a drama queen yourself. By which I mean, don't follow the advice which suggests that if she turns you down you play hard to get. If you ask her out and you end up as an item, well and good. If you decide it isn't worth the risk or if you ask and she turns you down or even if you get together and then break up at some future date, don't pretend to be over someone in order to get their attention, instead I suggest actually getting over her and not wasting time wondering if she's "regretting it enough". And especially, don't hang out/make out with someone else to get someone's attention. Or to sum up, jerky behavior, no matter how justified anyone feels, still makes that person a jerk, no excuses.
I very seriously hope that I was missing some kind of heavy sarcasm in all of the posts suggesting such things, in which case I apologize profusely.
And a real answer, if you have misgivings about hurting a friends feelings and you're not completely sure about the girl either, I would just skip it, it's not worth it.
posted by anaelith at 8:14 PM on March 19, 2007 [1 favorite]
I very seriously hope that I was missing some kind of heavy sarcasm in all of the posts suggesting such things, in which case I apologize profusely.
And a real answer, if you have misgivings about hurting a friends feelings and you're not completely sure about the girl either, I would just skip it, it's not worth it.
posted by anaelith at 8:14 PM on March 19, 2007 [1 favorite]
I don't really see what is so complicated about the situation. From what is revealed in the post:
She has a lot of guy friends, and also a lot of girl friends
Some/one/several? of her guy friends are interested in dating her. One is a good friend of the poster. She does not want to date him.
She does want to "hang out" with the poster and has initiated conversation towards that end, which suggests that she either wants to be closer platonic friends, or she she might be romantically interested. Nobody knows!
So, poster ... Why not "hang out" and see what how that goes? You don't need your guy friend's permission to see another mutual friend socially. Since she's initiated the idea of getting together, you can leave it to her to indicate what her feelings are when you are together. She might talk about a guy she is interested in, or say something like "it's nice to hang out and not worry about being hit on" or "I'm not into relationships now" - and that means she just wants to be friends.
Or she might make it a point to touch your arm or hand while talking to you, suggest more activities that are just you two, ask you lots of questions about yourself, maybe even give you a small gift - like a book you've discussed, or a photograph she's taken... in which case, it's time to talk to your friend.
If she gives conflicting signals, or or very ambiguous signals, it may be as thepinksuperhero fears, and it's probably better to back off and stick to a "friends among friends" status with her.
posted by taz at 12:30 AM on March 20, 2007 [1 favorite]
She has a lot of guy friends, and also a lot of girl friends
Some/one/several? of her guy friends are interested in dating her. One is a good friend of the poster. She does not want to date him.
She does want to "hang out" with the poster and has initiated conversation towards that end, which suggests that she either wants to be closer platonic friends, or she she might be romantically interested. Nobody knows!
So, poster ... Why not "hang out" and see what how that goes? You don't need your guy friend's permission to see another mutual friend socially. Since she's initiated the idea of getting together, you can leave it to her to indicate what her feelings are when you are together. She might talk about a guy she is interested in, or say something like "it's nice to hang out and not worry about being hit on" or "I'm not into relationships now" - and that means she just wants to be friends.
Or she might make it a point to touch your arm or hand while talking to you, suggest more activities that are just you two, ask you lots of questions about yourself, maybe even give you a small gift - like a book you've discussed, or a photograph she's taken... in which case, it's time to talk to your friend.
If she gives conflicting signals, or or very ambiguous signals, it may be as thepinksuperhero fears, and it's probably better to back off and stick to a "friends among friends" status with her.
posted by taz at 12:30 AM on March 20, 2007 [1 favorite]
I'm with kkokkodalk and litlnemo. Sometimes, a girl has lots of guy friends (and "tomboy" girl friends) because she doesn't understand/get along with most "regular" girls. That doesn't make her an "attention whore" or a manipulative bitch or whatever. (As a matter of fact, it was that kind of b.s. logical leap that used to make "regular" girls seem so foreign and confusing to me in the first place.) If you like her, ask her out. End of story.
posted by somanyamys at 6:10 AM on March 20, 2007
posted by somanyamys at 6:10 AM on March 20, 2007
I'm specifically interested in any creative schemes
You had me until here. I think as ThePinkSuperhero has suggested, you and your boys are being played, you're aware of it, and now it's about getting the upper hand and conquering the girl. Does not portend well for anything more than friendship and I think even real friendship is doubtful given that you seem to be viewing this as some sort of game to be won.
I also feel like if there's some kind of weird serial "friendship" thing going on with this girl, it would benefit EVERYONE in my scene if it came to light. Know what I mean? Kind of like: "Hey dudes - you need to recalibrate for this one - assume she's in friend mode", etc.
And it's your job to call the girl out? Assuming that you're even remotely right about her behavior and motivation, it would seem that you've decided it's your task to punish her for it just because she may not want to be more than friends with you. (cough)high school(cough)
Or to sum up, jerky behavior, no matter how justified anyone feels, still makes that person a jerk, no excuses.
What anaelith said.
The shortest distance between two points is a straight line. It looks like you've more than adequately assessed the risk of trying to move from your point to her point. Now man up, stop with the scheming and over-analyzing, and get on with it or move on.
posted by fuse theorem at 6:12 AM on March 20, 2007
You had me until here. I think as ThePinkSuperhero has suggested, you and your boys are being played, you're aware of it, and now it's about getting the upper hand and conquering the girl. Does not portend well for anything more than friendship and I think even real friendship is doubtful given that you seem to be viewing this as some sort of game to be won.
I also feel like if there's some kind of weird serial "friendship" thing going on with this girl, it would benefit EVERYONE in my scene if it came to light. Know what I mean? Kind of like: "Hey dudes - you need to recalibrate for this one - assume she's in friend mode", etc.
And it's your job to call the girl out? Assuming that you're even remotely right about her behavior and motivation, it would seem that you've decided it's your task to punish her for it just because she may not want to be more than friends with you. (cough)high school(cough)
Or to sum up, jerky behavior, no matter how justified anyone feels, still makes that person a jerk, no excuses.
What anaelith said.
The shortest distance between two points is a straight line. It looks like you've more than adequately assessed the risk of trying to move from your point to her point. Now man up, stop with the scheming and over-analyzing, and get on with it or move on.
posted by fuse theorem at 6:12 AM on March 20, 2007
I don't see why everyone is assuming this girl is "playing the boys". Look, just because you *can* be led around by your dicks, doesn't mean that every woman wants to lead you.
The poster sounds young, which means "the tribe", to borrow a sociology term, is still figuring out boundaries, and behaviors and group logic.
And it seems to me that what you boys want to do is be Alpha Male...and you've picked this girl as the "prize" by which Alpha will be decided. Trust me when I tell you that she's probably sussed that out as well, and will have none of it. Frankly, no girl wants to be the target of a pissing contest.
posted by dejah420 at 9:26 AM on March 20, 2007 [1 favorite]
The poster sounds young, which means "the tribe", to borrow a sociology term, is still figuring out boundaries, and behaviors and group logic.
And it seems to me that what you boys want to do is be Alpha Male...and you've picked this girl as the "prize" by which Alpha will be decided. Trust me when I tell you that she's probably sussed that out as well, and will have none of it. Frankly, no girl wants to be the target of a pissing contest.
posted by dejah420 at 9:26 AM on March 20, 2007 [1 favorite]
"She has lots of cute friends!"
Find out if one of them has any substance, and date her.
posted by Eideteker at 8:13 PM on April 6, 2007
Find out if one of them has any substance, and date her.
posted by Eideteker at 8:13 PM on April 6, 2007
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any creative schemes that might allow me to suss out the sitch without fully committing / exposing my flank
I know that this seems like a really brilliant scheme that'll keep you from getting hurt and allows you to bail and claim innocence, but it actually just makes you a jerk and you'll generally reap what you sow. Game-playing is a terrible way to start a relationship or treat your friends.
posted by Lyn Never at 12:38 PM on March 19, 2007