Forever??
October 11, 2006 12:18 PM Subscribe
How do you deal with other people always demanding/expecting that relationships go on forever?
Fortunately and unfortunately it seems that the women I'm with find that I'm a "keeper" and want to keep me forever.
While I'm flattered and grateful, the problem is that I'm not ready to be "kept", and I haven't yet met anyone that makes me certain that I want to share the entirety of my limited life with them. Large parts, sure. Forever -- I don't know what that means. Don't get me wrong, it's not that I don't want monogamy - I do and I'm totally faithful to whoever I'm with and for better or worse, expect the same.
How do you cope with (other people's/society's/significant other's) persistent idea that a relationship is only worthwhile and meaningful if it will go on forever? I just had another great relationship with a great woman self-destruct, mostly on these grounds, and it's really painful and I'm tired of it happening.
Fortunately and unfortunately it seems that the women I'm with find that I'm a "keeper" and want to keep me forever.
While I'm flattered and grateful, the problem is that I'm not ready to be "kept", and I haven't yet met anyone that makes me certain that I want to share the entirety of my limited life with them. Large parts, sure. Forever -- I don't know what that means. Don't get me wrong, it's not that I don't want monogamy - I do and I'm totally faithful to whoever I'm with and for better or worse, expect the same.
How do you cope with (other people's/society's/significant other's) persistent idea that a relationship is only worthwhile and meaningful if it will go on forever? I just had another great relationship with a great woman self-destruct, mostly on these grounds, and it's really painful and I'm tired of it happening.
It happens. In any relationship that ends, there's likely to be one person who isn't ready for it to end. They either feel that things are good, or that you can work whatever it is out, or that you're very compatible -- the problem comes with disagreement over one of these issues, or the idea that there is someone else more compatible/agreeable/"better."
No one thinks a relationship is only meaningful if it lasts forever. Few relationships do, but most people tend to have an unending relationship as an end goal to what they view as the dating "game." It's just that few people sit in a relationship thinking "Wow, this is going to end pretty soon," and view that as a comfortable state of mind.
The most you can do is to be honest, forthcoming, and reasonable about your motivations while remaining kind. You're going to get a lot of comments here, but let me just say that mutual breakups are pretty rare with serious relationships. You could not date, date only people who are likely to dump you (rather than vice versa), or stick in a relationship until it goes sour.
posted by mikeh at 12:35 PM on October 11, 2006
No one thinks a relationship is only meaningful if it lasts forever. Few relationships do, but most people tend to have an unending relationship as an end goal to what they view as the dating "game." It's just that few people sit in a relationship thinking "Wow, this is going to end pretty soon," and view that as a comfortable state of mind.
The most you can do is to be honest, forthcoming, and reasonable about your motivations while remaining kind. You're going to get a lot of comments here, but let me just say that mutual breakups are pretty rare with serious relationships. You could not date, date only people who are likely to dump you (rather than vice versa), or stick in a relationship until it goes sour.
posted by mikeh at 12:35 PM on October 11, 2006
I am one of those people, its the way I am. Its not the way you are and that is cool. Just find women who feel the way you do.
I am one of those hardcore mongamist who don't date someone I don't think I would marry. When it becomes obvious that I couldn't marry them or they couldn't marry me, I move on.
You will just have to accept that this "keeping" attitude is one that many people might have and put it on your list of things you don't want in a dating partner.
posted by stormygrey at 12:37 PM on October 11, 2006
I am one of those hardcore mongamist who don't date someone I don't think I would marry. When it becomes obvious that I couldn't marry them or they couldn't marry me, I move on.
You will just have to accept that this "keeping" attitude is one that many people might have and put it on your list of things you don't want in a dating partner.
posted by stormygrey at 12:37 PM on October 11, 2006
What I'm trying to figure out here is when a relationship is supposed to end. If the "great relationship with a great woman self-destructed", isn't this what you're after? I'm not trying to snark, rather to understand it better. I think it's in human nature to invest in a friendship only if it's expected to endure.
posted by rolypolyman at 12:38 PM on October 11, 2006
posted by rolypolyman at 12:38 PM on October 11, 2006
Well, a number of possbilities. People like to think that the time and energy they invest in someone is importaint and assume that others feel the same way. If you in effect say 'Yes I love you and I like being around you, but don't get use to it' I can see how someone may be upset. Finding someone that makes you happy and fullfills your needs can be a difficult thing so some people may want to minamize the number of times they go through this process. A lack of commitmentment indicates to many people a willness to leave a relationship for any reason and with little warning, people don't like to feel abandoned. This is a deal breaker for many many people.
If you find something you like, you don't want it to end.
posted by edgeways at 12:46 PM on October 11, 2006
If you find something you like, you don't want it to end.
posted by edgeways at 12:46 PM on October 11, 2006
Well, monogamy does usually entail some vague expectation of 'forever', even if it's only a relative 'we're getting serious here', rather than 'we're getting married'.
So, what kind of forever are we talking about here? Can you be more specific on what happens exactly that ends the relationship? Did your partners start talking about marriage?
posted by pleeker at 12:55 PM on October 11, 2006
So, what kind of forever are we talking about here? Can you be more specific on what happens exactly that ends the relationship? Did your partners start talking about marriage?
posted by pleeker at 12:55 PM on October 11, 2006
I have the same problem. I wouldn't bother trying with men, they are just as bad.
Probably the sunk cost fallacy has a lot to do with this.. I am not particularly motivated by that line of thinking, and it seems reasonable it would extend to social matters as well.
posted by shownomercy at 12:55 PM on October 11, 2006
Probably the sunk cost fallacy has a lot to do with this.. I am not particularly motivated by that line of thinking, and it seems reasonable it would extend to social matters as well.
posted by shownomercy at 12:55 PM on October 11, 2006
You can't make people want the same things as you.
Absolutely. That seems to be the crux of the issue.
Ask yourself why you keep going out with women like that.
How does one go about selecting partners ... like that? It doesn't seem like something you can simply pick.
posted by fake at 12:58 PM on October 11, 2006
Absolutely. That seems to be the crux of the issue.
Ask yourself why you keep going out with women like that.
How does one go about selecting partners ... like that? It doesn't seem like something you can simply pick.
posted by fake at 12:58 PM on October 11, 2006
It is a weakness that you will only see as a strength after you are divorced from a woman like you.
posted by weapons-grade pandemonium at 1:06 PM on October 11, 2006
posted by weapons-grade pandemonium at 1:06 PM on October 11, 2006
I'm kind of confused - what precipitates the break-up? Talk of marriage from the other person and reluctance from you? Or talk from you about how this isn't going to last forever?
I think a little more info is needed to see why these relationships are destructing at all - or are you ending them because you are bored?
Most people don't want to date forever.
posted by agregoli at 1:22 PM on October 11, 2006
I think a little more info is needed to see why these relationships are destructing at all - or are you ending them because you are bored?
Most people don't want to date forever.
posted by agregoli at 1:22 PM on October 11, 2006
How does one go about selecting partners ... like that? It doesn't seem like something you can simply pick.
If you check out the online dating scene, every single dating system I've ever seen has a form where you fill out what kind of relationship you're looking for. Choices usually include casual dating, short-term dating, and long-term dating.
posted by agropyron at 1:28 PM on October 11, 2006
If you check out the online dating scene, every single dating system I've ever seen has a form where you fill out what kind of relationship you're looking for. Choices usually include casual dating, short-term dating, and long-term dating.
posted by agropyron at 1:28 PM on October 11, 2006
How does one go about selecting partners ... like that? It doesn't seem like something you can simply pick.
It's not something you can pick persay, but it is something you can discuss early in the relationship before you get in too deep.
However, you're in sort of a touchy situation since you said in your post you want monogomy, and a relationship that is serious enough to last a long time, but not forever... It's bound to get misinterpreted since that line seems pretty fuzzy.
posted by lastyearsfad at 1:35 PM on October 11, 2006
It's not something you can pick persay, but it is something you can discuss early in the relationship before you get in too deep.
However, you're in sort of a touchy situation since you said in your post you want monogomy, and a relationship that is serious enough to last a long time, but not forever... It's bound to get misinterpreted since that line seems pretty fuzzy.
posted by lastyearsfad at 1:35 PM on October 11, 2006
Make your intentions clear early on.
And agreed, this is sort of a confusing, snake-swallowing-its-own-tail question if you don't clarify what exactly the problem is beyond, "OMG it's ending my relationships that I eventually want my relationships to end!"
posted by availablelight at 1:46 PM on October 11, 2006
And agreed, this is sort of a confusing, snake-swallowing-its-own-tail question if you don't clarify what exactly the problem is beyond, "OMG it's ending my relationships that I eventually want my relationships to end!"
posted by availablelight at 1:46 PM on October 11, 2006
I phrased the question poorly.
Also, I'm not ending relationships because I'm bored.
The breakup begins with talk of marriage, being together forever, spending our lives together, and that sort of thing. Not just talk -nothing wrong with that - but the actual desire to do so, and the resulting efforts to move the relationship in that direction. I am always honest and forthcoming as mikeh so rightly suggests above, and this inevitably causes a lot of strain in the relationship as the other person pulls closer and closer. Misunderstandings pile up as the desire to solidify the relationship into a marriage or lifelong commitment goes along.
Eventually this leads to both of us being/feeling misunderstood and the relationship failing.
The question here, though, is not how to preserve or change these relationships as they go on. I'm simply (but obviously not clearly, sorry) asking people with similar mindsets how they handle these situations when they come up.
Shownomercy has a likeminded response (glad to hear it's not gender specific... so how do you handle it?).
Also definitely appreciate stormygrey's response from the other side.
posted by fake at 1:49 PM on October 11, 2006
Also, I'm not ending relationships because I'm bored.
The breakup begins with talk of marriage, being together forever, spending our lives together, and that sort of thing. Not just talk -nothing wrong with that - but the actual desire to do so, and the resulting efforts to move the relationship in that direction. I am always honest and forthcoming as mikeh so rightly suggests above, and this inevitably causes a lot of strain in the relationship as the other person pulls closer and closer. Misunderstandings pile up as the desire to solidify the relationship into a marriage or lifelong commitment goes along.
Eventually this leads to both of us being/feeling misunderstood and the relationship failing.
The question here, though, is not how to preserve or change these relationships as they go on. I'm simply (but obviously not clearly, sorry) asking people with similar mindsets how they handle these situations when they come up.
Shownomercy has a likeminded response (glad to hear it's not gender specific... so how do you handle it?).
Also definitely appreciate stormygrey's response from the other side.
posted by fake at 1:49 PM on October 11, 2006
And agreed, this is sort of a confusing, snake-swallowing-its-own-tail question if you don't clarify what exactly the problem is beyond, "OMG it's ending my relationships that I eventually want my relationships to end!"
Heh.
First, I'm OK with relationships ending, absolutely, and do not require forever from anyone. I'm not OK with things ending the same way every time, with the other person being extremely hurt about me not wanting to spend the rest of my life with them. I have been forthcoming - in this case this person knew I was leaving the country in a set time, and that I wouldn't be able to continue after that.
Second, the problem is that some people want and work hard towards a much more serious commitment than I'm willing to give/interested in giving.
Fortunately/unfortunately I haven't been willing to change on that issue.
So the question I intended to ask, was "How do people who have experienced my situation/feel like I do cope with it" with a side of "How do you avoid this situaion" which has, I think, been reasonably answered above.
The monogamy thing was just to point out that I'm not looking for greener grass or getting bored. I meant it in the sense of not cheating, nothing more.
posted by fake at 2:05 PM on October 11, 2006
Heh.
First, I'm OK with relationships ending, absolutely, and do not require forever from anyone. I'm not OK with things ending the same way every time, with the other person being extremely hurt about me not wanting to spend the rest of my life with them. I have been forthcoming - in this case this person knew I was leaving the country in a set time, and that I wouldn't be able to continue after that.
Second, the problem is that some people want and work hard towards a much more serious commitment than I'm willing to give/interested in giving.
Fortunately/unfortunately I haven't been willing to change on that issue.
So the question I intended to ask, was "How do people who have experienced my situation/feel like I do cope with it" with a side of "How do you avoid this situaion" which has, I think, been reasonably answered above.
The monogamy thing was just to point out that I'm not looking for greener grass or getting bored. I meant it in the sense of not cheating, nothing more.
posted by fake at 2:05 PM on October 11, 2006
I can relate fake, your story basically sums up the events of last weekend for me except with a bit more of a pragmatic, amicable split.
While I can appreciate the reassurance of supposed certainty that some people believe in, I find the idea of making some sort of eternal promise to be irrational and, frankly, kind of childish. Some would call me cynical, but I'm just trying to be pragmatic.
Maybe we are flattered to think that there is nobody good enough for us, or oppositely, that there is a single life partner for us. Maybe with age, we'll find the idea of being with one person more and more attractive, someone who doesn't try to live with such absolutes. Maybe we'll die alone.
posted by dobie at 2:11 PM on October 11, 2006
While I can appreciate the reassurance of supposed certainty that some people believe in, I find the idea of making some sort of eternal promise to be irrational and, frankly, kind of childish. Some would call me cynical, but I'm just trying to be pragmatic.
Maybe we are flattered to think that there is nobody good enough for us, or oppositely, that there is a single life partner for us. Maybe with age, we'll find the idea of being with one person more and more attractive, someone who doesn't try to live with such absolutes. Maybe we'll die alone.
posted by dobie at 2:11 PM on October 11, 2006
Here's another response from someone looking for that "forever" love. A certain part of me actually dislikes the idea of ending an otherwise good relationship just because one person doesn't know if they want to try to make it last forever. Nothing is guaranteed, right? You could find the love of your life and they could get hit by a bus, so why end a good relationship to go search for "forever"? But look at it this way... If you want children, you probably want to have them before 40 if you can. And since having a child together is already a commitment that links two people together forever, you want to find someone who's going to stick with you and love you, and not leave themselves the wiggle room of thinking they can just walk away whenever they want to. Obviously, you can't control feelings, and plenty of people's feeling do change, even after making that committment, but you want someone who's at least willing to wager on your love lasting through the hard times. So if someone doesn't want to talk about the possibility of forever, and you want that sort of life you have to weigh your options, and sometimes that means ending things.
Plus, who wants to be with someone that won't even entertain the possibility that they'll find you sexy and fascinating when you're 90?
posted by MsMolly at 2:11 PM on October 11, 2006
Plus, who wants to be with someone that won't even entertain the possibility that they'll find you sexy and fascinating when you're 90?
posted by MsMolly at 2:11 PM on October 11, 2006
How is this coming up in these relationships? Specifically, why/how is it coming up in 'a great relationship with a great woman'?
Because if you're always bringing up the impermanency of relationships, or reminding a partner that 'things will end' I can understand how they would find that to be hurtful and possibly a hint from you that you're going to break up with them. If you are bringing this up in awkward ways, stop. Your partner may not have been expecting 'forever' from you, but got spooked by your language, and left.
If on the other hand, the way this comes up is your partner wants to make the relationship more serious and you're happy with the status quo, well, yeah, it may break you guys up. Differing expectations of where a relationship is leading can be a major issue. I don't know of any way to 'screen' for this, either. The only thing I can think to do is just be honest with people during 'state-of-the-union' type discussions. Also, I think lastyearsfad and availablelight have made insightful posts.
posted by HighTechUnderpants at 2:19 PM on October 11, 2006
Because if you're always bringing up the impermanency of relationships, or reminding a partner that 'things will end' I can understand how they would find that to be hurtful and possibly a hint from you that you're going to break up with them. If you are bringing this up in awkward ways, stop. Your partner may not have been expecting 'forever' from you, but got spooked by your language, and left.
If on the other hand, the way this comes up is your partner wants to make the relationship more serious and you're happy with the status quo, well, yeah, it may break you guys up. Differing expectations of where a relationship is leading can be a major issue. I don't know of any way to 'screen' for this, either. The only thing I can think to do is just be honest with people during 'state-of-the-union' type discussions. Also, I think lastyearsfad and availablelight have made insightful posts.
posted by HighTechUnderpants at 2:19 PM on October 11, 2006
And...I shoulda hit the preview button.
posted by HighTechUnderpants at 2:22 PM on October 11, 2006
posted by HighTechUnderpants at 2:22 PM on October 11, 2006
I've had a relationship that ended because I could not commit to "forever." It was simply because, we as people are dynamic, there are hundreds of large and small factors that change our everyday and to say that "this will last forever" seems impossible.
Don't people pledge "forever" when they marry? I always took that to mean that "we hope this lasts forever, but due to life and other circumstances it might not work out and that's ok."
Is it a permanent thing like marriage or live-in partnership that is preventing these relationships from moving forward? Or did this woman literally say "YOU ARE MINE FOREVER"? If it was the latter, then that would defintely scare me off.
I once was told something long ago, and it has sadly rung true through the years - this applies to any kind of relationship: "The person with the least interest in the relationship has the most power."
Not to say that one has invested 110% of them in the relationship and the "powerful" one has only 10% invested...but more like one person has at least a bit more interest in the relationship than the other.
Personally, I can only to commit to anything for one year (leases, cell phone and sometimes romantic relationships), but that is more because I am a wandering hobo who has lived in 3 countries in 5 years.
posted by wilde at 2:38 PM on October 11, 2006
Don't people pledge "forever" when they marry? I always took that to mean that "we hope this lasts forever, but due to life and other circumstances it might not work out and that's ok."
Is it a permanent thing like marriage or live-in partnership that is preventing these relationships from moving forward? Or did this woman literally say "YOU ARE MINE FOREVER"? If it was the latter, then that would defintely scare me off.
I once was told something long ago, and it has sadly rung true through the years - this applies to any kind of relationship: "The person with the least interest in the relationship has the most power."
Not to say that one has invested 110% of them in the relationship and the "powerful" one has only 10% invested...but more like one person has at least a bit more interest in the relationship than the other.
Personally, I can only to commit to anything for one year (leases, cell phone and sometimes romantic relationships), but that is more because I am a wandering hobo who has lived in 3 countries in 5 years.
posted by wilde at 2:38 PM on October 11, 2006
Okay, let me preface this by saying that I am another don't-date-someone-you-wouldn't-marry monogamist, so probably not your target demographic.
First of all, people are serious with the suggestions that you avoid these relationships entirely. Avoidance is the best way to prevent these unpleasant breakups. Surely there's a point early on where you can say, "I'm not looking for marriage, just a friendly relationship for a while." And say it like you mean it.
As for coping, I have a few suggestions:
1. Don't give in to inertia. If your SO is pushing for marriage, and you're not interested, it is the gentlemanly thing to set her straight right quick. If that means breaking off the relationship then and there, do it. It will hurt, but it will hurt a hell of a lot more if you let the misunderstandings grow until you're both full of disappointment and betrayal and hurt.
2. Put it in perspective. You've just lost someone you didn't see a future with anyway. You've lost a good friend, and that sucks. But she's just lost the man she thought she would be with forever. Ouch.
2b. Maybe this is what is really bothering you? Knowing that you're hurting someone that you genuinely care for? It's a really shitty situation, but the best you can do is give her a clean break.
3. Otherwise, it's like working through any other breakup. There are lots of ways to work through the pain of a breakup that aren't specific to your situation. There are lots of askme threads about it. Booze, meditation, a new girl, whatever helps.
4. If you mean "coping" on a societal level, well, you just have to. As others have said, all people are different. It's the same way you cope with people who think the world was created 6000 years ago. You really can't change them. But you can avoid them, mostly.
posted by miagaille at 2:51 PM on October 11, 2006
First of all, people are serious with the suggestions that you avoid these relationships entirely. Avoidance is the best way to prevent these unpleasant breakups. Surely there's a point early on where you can say, "I'm not looking for marriage, just a friendly relationship for a while." And say it like you mean it.
As for coping, I have a few suggestions:
1. Don't give in to inertia. If your SO is pushing for marriage, and you're not interested, it is the gentlemanly thing to set her straight right quick. If that means breaking off the relationship then and there, do it. It will hurt, but it will hurt a hell of a lot more if you let the misunderstandings grow until you're both full of disappointment and betrayal and hurt.
2. Put it in perspective. You've just lost someone you didn't see a future with anyway. You've lost a good friend, and that sucks. But she's just lost the man she thought she would be with forever. Ouch.
2b. Maybe this is what is really bothering you? Knowing that you're hurting someone that you genuinely care for? It's a really shitty situation, but the best you can do is give her a clean break.
3. Otherwise, it's like working through any other breakup. There are lots of ways to work through the pain of a breakup that aren't specific to your situation. There are lots of askme threads about it. Booze, meditation, a new girl, whatever helps.
4. If you mean "coping" on a societal level, well, you just have to. As others have said, all people are different. It's the same way you cope with people who think the world was created 6000 years ago. You really can't change them. But you can avoid them, mostly.
posted by miagaille at 2:51 PM on October 11, 2006
It seems to me that the singleminded pursuit of high stakes, all or nothing, relationships in our culture is a recipe for feeling unfulfilled and contributes to missed opportunities (including missed opportunities for lifelong monogamy) a la the sunk costs fallacy. A common example of this is the old "how do I end a bad first date?" question. Why is any minute spent on a "bad" date automatially a minute wasted and not an opportunity to learn more about yourself and another? Another related and really boggling thing to me thing is the disposability of intimate partners. You share a big chunk of your life with someone and then, poof, no more. (A really bad date or relationship with an asshole is another thing entirely, of course.)
For me, dating and partnerdom are both growth experiences. My dating philosophy has been that I want experiences and relationships that further my lifelong goal of becoming a better person. Lifelong monogamy may or may not be a piece of this, but that's a byproduct and not the goal. To use a fancy-smancy word: Building connections with other people helps me pursue my self-actualized self. As a result, I believe relationships evolve and should be allowed to evolve naturally, without jagged, premeditated breaks and flourishes. Instead, we invent awkward connotations like "friends with benefits," to explain any situation that isn't blank and white serial monogamy.
I, as usual, digress from the original question. I think the OP will continue to have trouble in the future for a number of reasons. Women in our society pursue marriage because, in truth, the stakes of dating are high and they are unequally high. Women take on the burden of birth control. Women take on the burden of date rape. Women are less valued by society as lovers as they age. Women are expected to have children.
Happiness comes from being content with the experience of the moment, but you need to sympathize with the fact that women in our society have to overcome a larger burden to get to that place than men do. Preemptive honesty is the only ethical policy here, but prepare to be frustrated.
posted by Skwirl at 2:58 PM on October 11, 2006 [3 favorites]
For me, dating and partnerdom are both growth experiences. My dating philosophy has been that I want experiences and relationships that further my lifelong goal of becoming a better person. Lifelong monogamy may or may not be a piece of this, but that's a byproduct and not the goal. To use a fancy-smancy word: Building connections with other people helps me pursue my self-actualized self. As a result, I believe relationships evolve and should be allowed to evolve naturally, without jagged, premeditated breaks and flourishes. Instead, we invent awkward connotations like "friends with benefits," to explain any situation that isn't blank and white serial monogamy.
I, as usual, digress from the original question. I think the OP will continue to have trouble in the future for a number of reasons. Women in our society pursue marriage because, in truth, the stakes of dating are high and they are unequally high. Women take on the burden of birth control. Women take on the burden of date rape. Women are less valued by society as lovers as they age. Women are expected to have children.
Happiness comes from being content with the experience of the moment, but you need to sympathize with the fact that women in our society have to overcome a larger burden to get to that place than men do. Preemptive honesty is the only ethical policy here, but prepare to be frustrated.
posted by Skwirl at 2:58 PM on October 11, 2006 [3 favorites]
Your best bet is going to be to find a community of like-minded people and date out of that pool. Acknowledge that your relationship goals in the world are pretty different from the majority of your available partners out there, and work from there.
I dated someone like you once, and it's really just not fair for anybody if one side expects the other to switch philosophies. I kept seeing his protestations as being really stupid, because there was this fixation on the word "forever," and I am actually aware that most people do not marry in high school or junior high or whenever they have their first relationships, and I am familiar with the concept of death and do not believe that relationships extend beyond that boundary, and I also understand the funtional definition of "a real long time" inherent in the term "forever" as applied to relationships. Clear on the concept, but still interested in "a real long time" as a goal.
Which he read simply as "clear on the concept" or maybe "knows what she's getting into," but we weren't talking about the same thing. I finally got that he was never going to be interested in living in the same physical space, never going to want to be financially entangled with another person, did not want to have to take someone else into consideration on most of his decisions.
Possibly, if you frame your explanation in words like that, some long-term-oriented women will get it and still want to start seeing you, or will want to fix you, or think they will be the one that turns you around, because that's going to happen a lot if you pursue relationships with those people. Because there are people who just really aren't wired for it, and then there are people who say they aren't because they're holding out for someone better to come along, and then the other person wants to win and be that better someone until it all ends in tears. The latter give the former a really bad name.
A lot of people just aren't wired for casual relationships. Dating them is kind of like dating someone whose sexual preferences don't include you.
posted by Lyn Never at 3:10 PM on October 11, 2006
I dated someone like you once, and it's really just not fair for anybody if one side expects the other to switch philosophies. I kept seeing his protestations as being really stupid, because there was this fixation on the word "forever," and I am actually aware that most people do not marry in high school or junior high or whenever they have their first relationships, and I am familiar with the concept of death and do not believe that relationships extend beyond that boundary, and I also understand the funtional definition of "a real long time" inherent in the term "forever" as applied to relationships. Clear on the concept, but still interested in "a real long time" as a goal.
Which he read simply as "clear on the concept" or maybe "knows what she's getting into," but we weren't talking about the same thing. I finally got that he was never going to be interested in living in the same physical space, never going to want to be financially entangled with another person, did not want to have to take someone else into consideration on most of his decisions.
Possibly, if you frame your explanation in words like that, some long-term-oriented women will get it and still want to start seeing you, or will want to fix you, or think they will be the one that turns you around, because that's going to happen a lot if you pursue relationships with those people. Because there are people who just really aren't wired for it, and then there are people who say they aren't because they're holding out for someone better to come along, and then the other person wants to win and be that better someone until it all ends in tears. The latter give the former a really bad name.
A lot of people just aren't wired for casual relationships. Dating them is kind of like dating someone whose sexual preferences don't include you.
posted by Lyn Never at 3:10 PM on October 11, 2006
It's not that easy to find 'a community of like-minded people' when like-minded is so general as 'dislikes getting pressured into a lifelong committment/marriage'. Especially since fake is not talking about wanting only casual hookups for fun and sex only.
He does want relationships but without the forever pressure, right? I don't think it's the kind of attitude you can tell from first impressions.
I agree pre-emptive honesty early on in is indeed the best thing. You can't just know beforehand and 'select' people with your same attitude to relationship before you've started something, but before that something gets serious and exclusive, make it clear you want something relaxed and pressure-free, without making it sound like you just don't care.
However, you have to accept that it's the combination of "expect monogamy, no cheating" (ie. you do care) and "want no pressure towards lifelong commitment" (but you don't want others to expect you to care forever) that can be confusing.
posted by pleeker at 3:45 PM on October 11, 2006 [1 favorite]
He does want relationships but without the forever pressure, right? I don't think it's the kind of attitude you can tell from first impressions.
I agree pre-emptive honesty early on in is indeed the best thing. You can't just know beforehand and 'select' people with your same attitude to relationship before you've started something, but before that something gets serious and exclusive, make it clear you want something relaxed and pressure-free, without making it sound like you just don't care.
However, you have to accept that it's the combination of "expect monogamy, no cheating" (ie. you do care) and "want no pressure towards lifelong commitment" (but you don't want others to expect you to care forever) that can be confusing.
posted by pleeker at 3:45 PM on October 11, 2006 [1 favorite]
Heh, sorry fake, I'm not terribly good at relationships. Avoidance is a large part of my strategy.
I'm kind of surprised all these other folks consider anything other than together-forever to be "casual dating". Maybe you are phrasing things wrong? Too much "I'm not ready for committment" and not enough "I dislike the unrealistic pressure that presuming this relationship will last another six decades creates"?
posted by shownomercy at 3:45 PM on October 11, 2006
I'm kind of surprised all these other folks consider anything other than together-forever to be "casual dating". Maybe you are phrasing things wrong? Too much "I'm not ready for committment" and not enough "I dislike the unrealistic pressure that presuming this relationship will last another six decades creates"?
posted by shownomercy at 3:45 PM on October 11, 2006
Response by poster: I agree with stormeygrey. Some people have a "keeper" attitude, some don't. I had a long discussion with a friend over relationships where he told me he could only date women he could see himself marrying (I wondered how he could know). Part of it is he didn't want to waste time; another part was he didn't want to cause unnecessary pain by entering into a relationship that would eventually end.
I am like you; most relationships come and go, and those that do get you ready for when you're ready to finally stay.
posted by Anonymous at 3:46 PM on October 11, 2006
I am like you; most relationships come and go, and those that do get you ready for when you're ready to finally stay.
posted by Anonymous at 3:46 PM on October 11, 2006
From previous experience - tell them very, very early about your feelings. They probably won't listen, and they may be hurt when it ends, but at least you will know that you tried to be as honest as possible from the very beginning.
When it happened to me, I was told "I don't want to commit to a relationship, not any relationship. We could go on perfectly happy for 10 years, and then I'll just feel the need to move on. Do you want to risk that?" (I didn't believe him (or thought I could change his mind), and it only lasted four years, but at least he ~did~ warn me in no uncertain terms.)
posted by Meep! Eek! at 4:20 PM on October 11, 2006
When it happened to me, I was told "I don't want to commit to a relationship, not any relationship. We could go on perfectly happy for 10 years, and then I'll just feel the need to move on. Do you want to risk that?" (I didn't believe him (or thought I could change his mind), and it only lasted four years, but at least he ~did~ warn me in no uncertain terms.)
posted by Meep! Eek! at 4:20 PM on October 11, 2006
To clarify - I myself don't think it's either together-forever or casual dating, but for a lot of people it is, in a way, or at least, the together-forever expectation/hope/notion is there once things get serious. So it's not that weird for them to assume that a committed monogamous relationship that lasts a while leads to plans of marriage/paperless equivalent. These women found someone they thought was thinking marriage too, because he showed them some commitment. If he didn't give a crap it'd be easier to avoid this problem...
posted by pleeker at 4:21 PM on October 11, 2006
posted by pleeker at 4:21 PM on October 11, 2006
What availablelight said. If you are spending considerable time with a woman and treating it as an exclusive relationship, then you are conveying the impression that you are both building something permanent. It pretty much goes without saying anyway, unless you make it clear up front that you're not ready to go there. Scrupulous honesty will severely limit your options and desireability to many women, but you won't feel (as) guilty about leading them on.
In my experience, amicable breakups of intense relationships are few and far between. If you have been completely up front about your intentions, then don't stress too much if they hate you for a while. I would even go so far as to say that anger is therapeutic, assisting the transition process and providing fodder for commiseration.
But you might want to give the one that accepts it gracefully a second look. Also in my experience, she just might turn out to be the keeper.
posted by Manjusri at 4:54 PM on October 11, 2006
In my experience, amicable breakups of intense relationships are few and far between. If you have been completely up front about your intentions, then don't stress too much if they hate you for a while. I would even go so far as to say that anger is therapeutic, assisting the transition process and providing fodder for commiseration.
But you might want to give the one that accepts it gracefully a second look. Also in my experience, she just might turn out to be the keeper.
posted by Manjusri at 4:54 PM on October 11, 2006
One of the things about relationships, that is putting you (the original poster) in a bind, is the fact that when most monogamous people have a close, intimate connection with someone, it is natural and inevitable that you look forward to spending more of life with that person. And the deeper that connection grows, the more of life you naturally hope to share with that person. For you to withhold yourself, by saying, "I'm just not into permanent relationships; I may have to terminate this relationship when I get tired of being with you," is a kind of honesty that will foreclose a lot of the depth and passion that for many of us, is the greatest part of a monogamous relationship.
By withholding yourself in this way, by stamping a disclaimer on your relationship to the effect of "THIS ISN'T PERMANENT," you are in effect prematurely chilling the relationship and dooming it to a superficial level.
You're sort of ruling out one of the great pleasures of a monogamous relationship, the pleasure of planning, dreaming, and contemplating the future together. I'm not saying that's wrong, but it goes against the tide of the emotions that are typically in play in a monogamous relationship.
I think skwirl is right on target.
posted by jayder at 6:06 PM on October 11, 2006 [4 favorites]
By withholding yourself in this way, by stamping a disclaimer on your relationship to the effect of "THIS ISN'T PERMANENT," you are in effect prematurely chilling the relationship and dooming it to a superficial level.
You're sort of ruling out one of the great pleasures of a monogamous relationship, the pleasure of planning, dreaming, and contemplating the future together. I'm not saying that's wrong, but it goes against the tide of the emotions that are typically in play in a monogamous relationship.
I think skwirl is right on target.
posted by jayder at 6:06 PM on October 11, 2006 [4 favorites]
I dunno, dude, the way you phrased your question, you sound like just another asshole blaming all your problems on the women you date. IF ONLY you'd find the right woman, you wouldn't feel the way you do. Is it possible you're playing out this pattern: you're emotionally unavailable, you attract women who desire to win over some emotionally unavailable guy to prove to themselves they're "worth" loving (and I think we all put ourselves through this at one time or another), you both dance around the issue until finally the whole thing explodes, rinse and repeat? I'm not even sure if being upfront and honest is the answer to your problem, because if you're dating women at that point in their lives, they'll just see it as a challenge to win you over. Most people go through the agony of dating hoping they'll fall in love. If you're not ready for that, don't date long-term. Keep It Simple, Stupid, and just hook up.
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 7:47 PM on October 11, 2006 [2 favorites]
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 7:47 PM on October 11, 2006 [2 favorites]
There are women like you out there. I (think I) am one of them (at least I have been for the last four years). I don't know how old you are, but you might try women who have already been married and divorced, or who are 35 or older. I think for some people including myself the "forever" urge tends to fade very much over time and experience.
posted by ClaudiaCenter at 8:13 PM on October 11, 2006
posted by ClaudiaCenter at 8:13 PM on October 11, 2006
TPS, I may be an asshole but not the type you describe.
Maybe you are phrasing things wrong? Too much "I'm not ready for committment" and not enough "I dislike the unrealistic pressure that presuming this relationship will last another six decades creates"?
Yep.
You really can't change them. But you can avoid them, mostly.
I don't want to change them! But wait, I have to be single, FOREVER?
;)
I appreciate everyone's answers very, very much. Thanks.
posted by fake at 9:03 PM on October 11, 2006
Maybe you are phrasing things wrong? Too much "I'm not ready for committment" and not enough "I dislike the unrealistic pressure that presuming this relationship will last another six decades creates"?
Yep.
You really can't change them. But you can avoid them, mostly.
I don't want to change them! But wait, I have to be single, FOREVER?
;)
I appreciate everyone's answers very, very much. Thanks.
posted by fake at 9:03 PM on October 11, 2006
you might save yourself some pain if you just rename their desires as legitimate instead of a "persistent idea."
Exactly. You seem to be approaching this with the attitude that "all these women are weird! why do I keep running into these weird women and how can I deal with them?" That's counterproductive, because it's bound to make you confused and resentful to some extent. You should try to rewire your approach to "most women I meet are going to want and expect a lasting relationship, and that's perfectly normal, it's just not what I want."
And it's not enough to "warn them up front." That gives you the satisfying ability to say "I warned you, baby," but it's not really helpful. Most women will assume that once you get involved with them and come to love them, you will want to stay with them, and that is a perfectly human, normal, and acceptable assumption. You are not being fair to yourself or to the women you date by taking your current approach. What you need to do is choose women only from the pool of those who have made it clear they are not looking for lasting relationships; sure, they may change their minds, but then it's clearly their fault.
Personally, I have little patience for the "I'm a travelin' man, baby, and I gotta be movin' on" lifestyle/attitude, but if you're going to live that way, it's your responsibility to do your best to ensure you minimize the emotional harm to the women you get involved with, and that means more than a legalistic disclaimer issued at the start of the affair.
posted by languagehat at 7:23 AM on October 12, 2006 [1 favorite]
Exactly. You seem to be approaching this with the attitude that "all these women are weird! why do I keep running into these weird women and how can I deal with them?" That's counterproductive, because it's bound to make you confused and resentful to some extent. You should try to rewire your approach to "most women I meet are going to want and expect a lasting relationship, and that's perfectly normal, it's just not what I want."
And it's not enough to "warn them up front." That gives you the satisfying ability to say "I warned you, baby," but it's not really helpful. Most women will assume that once you get involved with them and come to love them, you will want to stay with them, and that is a perfectly human, normal, and acceptable assumption. You are not being fair to yourself or to the women you date by taking your current approach. What you need to do is choose women only from the pool of those who have made it clear they are not looking for lasting relationships; sure, they may change their minds, but then it's clearly their fault.
Personally, I have little patience for the "I'm a travelin' man, baby, and I gotta be movin' on" lifestyle/attitude, but if you're going to live that way, it's your responsibility to do your best to ensure you minimize the emotional harm to the women you get involved with, and that means more than a legalistic disclaimer issued at the start of the affair.
posted by languagehat at 7:23 AM on October 12, 2006 [1 favorite]
TPS, I may be an asshole but not the type you describe.
Well thank goodness because I hate those guys, lol. And they seem to be a dime a dozen.
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 7:44 AM on October 12, 2006 [1 favorite]
Well thank goodness because I hate those guys, lol. And they seem to be a dime a dozen.
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 7:44 AM on October 12, 2006 [1 favorite]
The couple of times I've been in a position where I've started a relationship and was honest about my leaving the country after some number of months, she was not super-enchanted with the idea to begin with it, but agreed to it. Then as I left, both times, it became clearer that it ending was wrenching for her; where I was leaving someone I liked and enjoyed spending time with, and was not really happy about that, she was crushed, an order of magnitude more unhappy.
Which is to say, my (more limited, I'm sure) experience leads me to a different conclusion than that of Languagehat. I'm not sure it's possible to minimise emotional harm to $normal_woman in that context, without doing something massively patronising and not enjoyable like treating her with contempt for months to push her to break up.
posted by Aidan Kehoe at 11:36 AM on October 12, 2006
Which is to say, my (more limited, I'm sure) experience leads me to a different conclusion than that of Languagehat. I'm not sure it's possible to minimise emotional harm to $normal_woman in that context, without doing something massively patronising and not enjoyable like treating her with contempt for months to push her to break up.
posted by Aidan Kehoe at 11:36 AM on October 12, 2006
a different conclusion than that of Languagehat
You may be misreading me; I don't think we disagree. I too am not sure it's possible to minimize emotional harm to normal women in that context, which is why I suggested he remove himself from the "normal" dating pool (which involves "normal" women who want long-term relationships) and date only women who, like him, expect the relationship to end, however enjoyable it may be in the meantime. (Note: I am using "normal" because you did; I do not consider one type better than the other, but I think it's indisputable that most women want their serious relationships to continue indefinitely.)
posted by languagehat at 12:04 PM on October 12, 2006
You may be misreading me; I don't think we disagree. I too am not sure it's possible to minimize emotional harm to normal women in that context, which is why I suggested he remove himself from the "normal" dating pool (which involves "normal" women who want long-term relationships) and date only women who, like him, expect the relationship to end, however enjoyable it may be in the meantime. (Note: I am using "normal" because you did; I do not consider one type better than the other, but I think it's indisputable that most women want their serious relationships to continue indefinitely.)
posted by languagehat at 12:04 PM on October 12, 2006
I too am not sure it's possible to minimize emotional harm to normal women in that context, which is why I suggested he remove himself from the "normal" dating pool (which involves "normal" women who want long-term relationships) and date only women who, like him, expect the relationship to end, however enjoyable it may be in the meantime.
If you accept my description as accurate—that the women in question initially were okay with the relationship ending, and relatively soon, but that feeling died off, to be replaced with a more long-term feeling—then the difference between the two pools isn't big.
I mean, how does one, external to the head of the person being spoken with, determine that this person expects the relationship to end, and this other person expects you to change your mind, when both say the same thing ["I've understand that you say that you are not that interested in a lifelong partnership, but I'm interested in continuing the relationship that we have"] at the initial stage of one's relationship? Do you just assume that any woman is lying, unless she has a succession of failed relationships to demonstrate her credibility?
If so, I don't think that a respectful way to proceed. If not, how does one realistically determine what your dating pool is, in the face of unending cross-cultural varying standards on these things? I am most certainly not stuck in middle America for these things, and I suspect our North Dakotan poster, realistically, isn't either.
posted by Aidan Kehoe at 3:33 PM on October 12, 2006
If you accept my description as accurate—that the women in question initially were okay with the relationship ending, and relatively soon, but that feeling died off, to be replaced with a more long-term feeling—then the difference between the two pools isn't big.
I mean, how does one, external to the head of the person being spoken with, determine that this person expects the relationship to end, and this other person expects you to change your mind, when both say the same thing ["I've understand that you say that you are not that interested in a lifelong partnership, but I'm interested in continuing the relationship that we have"] at the initial stage of one's relationship? Do you just assume that any woman is lying, unless she has a succession of failed relationships to demonstrate her credibility?
If so, I don't think that a respectful way to proceed. If not, how does one realistically determine what your dating pool is, in the face of unending cross-cultural varying standards on these things? I am most certainly not stuck in middle America for these things, and I suspect our North Dakotan poster, realistically, isn't either.
posted by Aidan Kehoe at 3:33 PM on October 12, 2006
s/I've understand/I've understood/
posted by Aidan Kehoe at 3:44 PM on October 12, 2006
posted by Aidan Kehoe at 3:44 PM on October 12, 2006
"I'm a travelin' man, baby, and I gotta be movin' on"
I ain't joking woman, I got to ramble, oh yeah... you made me happy every single day, but now, I got to go awaaaay! *plays some air guitar*
The impression I got is the problem is he doesn't so much expect the relationship to end, as wants there to be no expectation that it should/must never ever end, and no pressure to make lifelong commitment plans.
Maybe it comes across like a bullshit difference, but I don't think it necessarily is.
It can be an attitude specific to relationships, but it can also be due to a more general situation, like what wilde said, not living long enough in the same place and not being able to make plans longer than a year, etc.
I'm in that kind of situation myself so I can sympathise, though I never really run into fake's problem of a major imbalance in expectations, I always inevitably ended up with both friends and relationships in the same situation where it wasn't even possible to think of a 'forever'. (Yeah, all losers, fancy name 'mobile workers'...)
It may be an age thing, something depending on work and financial situation and life plans in general, a personality thing, a preference, a choice, a bit of all that, but it's just as legitimate an attitude/lifestyle as wanting (and being ready, and having the means and conditions) to get married and put down roots.
Sure there are men just looking for a 'gotta ramble on' excuse to dump women they got tired of, but I don't think they're the type that's likely to be bothered enough to ask for advice on how to avoid a painful clash of expectations.
posted by pleeker at 3:52 PM on October 12, 2006
I ain't joking woman, I got to ramble, oh yeah... you made me happy every single day, but now, I got to go awaaaay! *plays some air guitar*
The impression I got is the problem is he doesn't so much expect the relationship to end, as wants there to be no expectation that it should/must never ever end, and no pressure to make lifelong commitment plans.
Maybe it comes across like a bullshit difference, but I don't think it necessarily is.
It can be an attitude specific to relationships, but it can also be due to a more general situation, like what wilde said, not living long enough in the same place and not being able to make plans longer than a year, etc.
I'm in that kind of situation myself so I can sympathise, though I never really run into fake's problem of a major imbalance in expectations, I always inevitably ended up with both friends and relationships in the same situation where it wasn't even possible to think of a 'forever'. (Yeah, all losers, fancy name 'mobile workers'...)
It may be an age thing, something depending on work and financial situation and life plans in general, a personality thing, a preference, a choice, a bit of all that, but it's just as legitimate an attitude/lifestyle as wanting (and being ready, and having the means and conditions) to get married and put down roots.
Sure there are men just looking for a 'gotta ramble on' excuse to dump women they got tired of, but I don't think they're the type that's likely to be bothered enough to ask for advice on how to avoid a painful clash of expectations.
posted by pleeker at 3:52 PM on October 12, 2006
This thread is closed to new comments.
The relationship didn't self-destruct, she wanted something you couldn't provide. There's nothing wrong with that, but you might save yourself some pain if you just rename their desires as legitimate instead of a "persistent idea." Its how they feel about things. You can't change it.
posted by Ironmouth at 12:31 PM on October 11, 2006 [1 favorite]