Rude and noisy college students moved in, landlord is mum, what do I do?
August 6, 2024 1:41 PM Subscribe
I'm mostly interested in whether this qualifies as a "quiet enjoyment" issue and would allow me to terminate my lease. If so, how do I approach that? My landlord is at this moment being unresponsive to my most recent requests just for a conversation.
I've lived in my Chicago apartment incident-free since 2021. Occasional weekend parties from surrounding apartments, not really a problem, nothing regular/ongoing. I accept that city living comes with noise. E.g., I always hear my upstairs neighbor's footsteps, but otherwise he is quiet as a mouse and the footsteps don't bother me one bit.
But now this past month has seen 2 or 3 college students move in below me and they're just extremely noisy, almost every weekend night, including sometimes well after midnight. Mainly loud music, and also the occasional shouting. It's definitely ruined my ability to relax, and also sometimes my sleep.
I did contact my landlord early, a few weeks ago, and they spoke to the guys in question. They quieted down for a weekend, but this past weekend they were right back at it. There was a 4 a.m. gathering of some sort on Saturday night into Sunday after the bars closed. It woke me up and was still audible through my earplugs, through my fan that I cranked up.
This incident pushed me over the top, so I emailed the landlord, and have attempted to call him as well. It's a corporate office of some sort, a management company, not a solo landlord.
They are not getting back to me. I am debating as to whether to send them a formal complaint of a violation of implied right to quiet enjoyment. I just don't know if that is even a valid approach that they have to respond to.
Ideally we'd chat and figure out if I can break the lease, move into another unit of theirs, or relet the place.
How do I get them to help me from here?
I've lived in my Chicago apartment incident-free since 2021. Occasional weekend parties from surrounding apartments, not really a problem, nothing regular/ongoing. I accept that city living comes with noise. E.g., I always hear my upstairs neighbor's footsteps, but otherwise he is quiet as a mouse and the footsteps don't bother me one bit.
But now this past month has seen 2 or 3 college students move in below me and they're just extremely noisy, almost every weekend night, including sometimes well after midnight. Mainly loud music, and also the occasional shouting. It's definitely ruined my ability to relax, and also sometimes my sleep.
I did contact my landlord early, a few weeks ago, and they spoke to the guys in question. They quieted down for a weekend, but this past weekend they were right back at it. There was a 4 a.m. gathering of some sort on Saturday night into Sunday after the bars closed. It woke me up and was still audible through my earplugs, through my fan that I cranked up.
This incident pushed me over the top, so I emailed the landlord, and have attempted to call him as well. It's a corporate office of some sort, a management company, not a solo landlord.
They are not getting back to me. I am debating as to whether to send them a formal complaint of a violation of implied right to quiet enjoyment. I just don't know if that is even a valid approach that they have to respond to.
Ideally we'd chat and figure out if I can break the lease, move into another unit of theirs, or relet the place.
How do I get them to help me from here?
Best answer: - Once you figure out if you moving out will work, you could even approach the college students and see if they have friends who'd want to take the unit - meaning more loud-tolerant tenants and less drama for the landlord.
posted by nouvelle-personne at 2:07 PM on August 6 [2 favorites]
posted by nouvelle-personne at 2:07 PM on August 6 [2 favorites]
Response by poster: Interesting, I would not have thought to approach the neighbors and ask if any of their friends would like to move in.
Yes, I think the issue is that the cadence and tone of my communication is working against me. Perhaps I just need to take a breather and attempt to re-approach the landlord in a few days.
posted by Team of Scientists at 2:34 PM on August 6
Yes, I think the issue is that the cadence and tone of my communication is working against me. Perhaps I just need to take a breather and attempt to re-approach the landlord in a few days.
posted by Team of Scientists at 2:34 PM on August 6
I've been on the other side of this, as a landlord with noisy tenants. I'm very sympathetic personally to your situation, but as a landlord, my hands were largely tied: the tenants have a lease, and unless it can be proven that they have violated it, they, too, get to enjoy their property. I called my city and was told the decibel limits according to city ordinances, both during the day and at night. I provided my tenant with a decibel meter, so that tenant could keep a record of any time that the noise was over that limit. In my city, the limit was surprisingly high: whenever the tenant measured the noise, even if it seemed unreasonably loud to the tenant, it was still well within the allowed decibel limit. I was advised by a lawyer that the noisy tenants could sue me, the landlord, if I prevented them from enjoying their apartment: he said that bothering them about noise that was within the allowances of city noise ordinances could be construed as such. Also, a close relative of mine specializes in property law: I believe that relative has said to me that "quiet enjoyment" is not actually really referring to noise, but more about the ability to use one's rented dwelling without harassment or interference - but I can check, if you'd like.
Given this, I'd recommend not playing hardball here, as I'm not sure how firm the ground is for you to do so. That probably depends on exactly where you are, and what the specific laws and ordinances are - perhaps other places are more tenant-friendly than where I am. If you share your location, maybe others know more. If your landlord has a vacant unit that would be acceptable to you and in the same price bracket, I would think that he or she might be willing to have you switch to it. No one is helped by the current situation, and so I would think it would be in your landlord's best interest to let you move. If it were an individual, I would think that talking through the situation and appealing both to their sympathy and best interest would be a good idea. But management companies may have defined policies for this sort of thing. Is there a physical office where you can go and speak with someone? I often find that when I need to get something accomplished, it's much easier in person: you're much harder to ignore that way, and having a sympathetic face to attach to the story often seems to make people more motivated to help find a solution, in my experience.
posted by ClaireBear at 2:36 PM on August 6 [10 favorites]
Given this, I'd recommend not playing hardball here, as I'm not sure how firm the ground is for you to do so. That probably depends on exactly where you are, and what the specific laws and ordinances are - perhaps other places are more tenant-friendly than where I am. If you share your location, maybe others know more. If your landlord has a vacant unit that would be acceptable to you and in the same price bracket, I would think that he or she might be willing to have you switch to it. No one is helped by the current situation, and so I would think it would be in your landlord's best interest to let you move. If it were an individual, I would think that talking through the situation and appealing both to their sympathy and best interest would be a good idea. But management companies may have defined policies for this sort of thing. Is there a physical office where you can go and speak with someone? I often find that when I need to get something accomplished, it's much easier in person: you're much harder to ignore that way, and having a sympathetic face to attach to the story often seems to make people more motivated to help find a solution, in my experience.
posted by ClaireBear at 2:36 PM on August 6 [10 favorites]
"Quiet enjoyment" is not about noise.
The meaning of “quiet” was clarified by Justice Kekewich in the 1888 UK decision Jenkins v. Jackson. According to Justice Kekewich, “When a man is quietly in possession it has nothing whatever to do with noise . . . “Peacefully and quietly” means without interference – without interruption of possession.” from here
posted by saturdaymornings at 2:46 PM on August 6 [4 favorites]
The meaning of “quiet” was clarified by Justice Kekewich in the 1888 UK decision Jenkins v. Jackson. According to Justice Kekewich, “When a man is quietly in possession it has nothing whatever to do with noise . . . “Peacefully and quietly” means without interference – without interruption of possession.” from here
posted by saturdaymornings at 2:46 PM on August 6 [4 favorites]
Response by poster: Yeah I've been thinking I could drop into their office. Perhaps that will be next. I really think this place should relet without much issue. I don't think I've seen a single day of vacancy in these apartments since I move in.
posted by Team of Scientists at 2:48 PM on August 6
posted by Team of Scientists at 2:48 PM on August 6
Response by poster: **3. Blackett v. Olanoff (1977)
Summary: Tenants in a residential building complained that noise from a nearby bar, which was leased by the same landlord, violated their quiet enjoyment.
Outcome: The Massachusetts Supreme Judicial Court found that the landlord breached the covenant of quiet enjoyment by leasing the property to a noisy bar.
Significance: This case underscores that landlords must ensure that their actions, including leasing decisions, do not interfere with tenants' quiet enjoyment of their property.
Noise definitely applied to "quiet enjoyment" in at least this case
posted by Team of Scientists at 2:56 PM on August 6 [1 favorite]
Summary: Tenants in a residential building complained that noise from a nearby bar, which was leased by the same landlord, violated their quiet enjoyment.
Outcome: The Massachusetts Supreme Judicial Court found that the landlord breached the covenant of quiet enjoyment by leasing the property to a noisy bar.
Significance: This case underscores that landlords must ensure that their actions, including leasing decisions, do not interfere with tenants' quiet enjoyment of their property.
Noise definitely applied to "quiet enjoyment" in at least this case
posted by Team of Scientists at 2:56 PM on August 6 [1 favorite]
Does your lease say anything about quiet hours or such? Usually there's something in there about not being unreasonably loud after 10-11pm, before 5 am, etc.
It could be that the landlord hasn't gotten back to you because they're fielding complaints from lots of tenants.
posted by purple_bird at 3:03 PM on August 6 [1 favorite]
It could be that the landlord hasn't gotten back to you because they're fielding complaints from lots of tenants.
posted by purple_bird at 3:03 PM on August 6 [1 favorite]
Best answer: Following up with two concrete tips:
(1) Can you find out the allowed noise levels in your city at different times of the day or night, buy a decibel meter, and see how it stacks up? If it's over the limit, I would think that would provide pretty strong argument that the noise is too high.
(2) If there's a physical office where the management/landlord is, I would definitely go there and try to speak with someone. I have unusual success in difficult customer service situations like this. My tips are:
- Remain cheerful, calm, and persistent.
- Start with the working assumption that you're all on the same team, and that of course these folks will want to help you solve the problem you're having in their apartment. Assume good intent always.
- Language like "we" helps pull them into the problem, so it's not you versus them: try to speak about it collaboratively, as such framing makes it hard for them to refuse to help you without seeming like real assholes, which many people are reluctant to do.
- Don't let them end the conversation until they propose some solution or something to try, or someone higher up to contact. In my experience, people will say all sorts of things about how they'll get back to you, and then actually never do, so literally don't leave the building until you have the next thing to try or person to contact.
- Make sure your language is persistent: don't use the subjunctive, or hesitant language, so that they know that you're determined to find a solution, and quickly. (e.g. "I'm here today so that we can solve this problem", rather than "I was hoping you might solve this").
- Use "I" statements rather than accusing people: speak about your own experience and draw the listener in and gain his/her sympathy by encouraging him/her to imagine what it would be like to be in your position. It's a bit of a tough line to walk, but: evoke sympathy but don't show anger - only vulnerable emotions.
- Show that you're a reasonable person who has already taken reasonable steps to solve the problem.
- Be concise and state objective facts, assuming that the person you're speaking with has an attention span of about 1-2 minutes and a listening comprehension level of 3rd grade. Don't be tentative: be clear that you're persistent (and maybe a bit irritating), and so it will be easier to solve your problem than keep dealing with you. Stay calm, polite, cheerful, friendly, and assertive but not aggressive or angry. Smiling is very helpful.
- And make sure you're actually talking to the person who has the power to help you, and try to establish this quickly (very useful tip for customer service calls to companies, who put poorly-paid pawns as the phone-answerers to try to prevent customers from reaching the people who can actually do anything).
If I were in your shoes, I might go to the management office and lead with something like this (smiling, calm tone):
"Hi there, I'm Natalie, the tenant in 3B. I've lived here since 2021, and I've been very happy here: I've also always paid my rent on time and have been a quiet tenant that has never caused a problem. I'm currently having a big issue with my apartment that I'm hoping you can help me with. The new tenants downstairs are extremely loud on a regular basis, late into the night. I've been wearing earplugs and using a fan to block the noise, but unfortunately I can still hear them. I'm sure you can imagine how frustrating this is, especially after a number of nights of poor sleep as a result. I'm here so that we can find a solution to this problem. Are you the best person for me to speak with to solve this, or is there someone else who deals with this kind of thing?"
If they try to fob you off to get you to leave (if they say something like "sorry, nothing's possible"), just continue to be cheerful but persistent, and make clear that solving the problem with you (or escalating you to someone else) is the only way they're going to get you to go away. I've successfully used a line like: "Oh, unfortunately that's not going to work for me. I'm determined to get the ball rolling on a solution today. What else do you suggest? Or who would be a better person to speak to so that we can fix this?". Just keep repeating versions of this until the person there starts working with you, or refers you to someone else. And then rinse and repeat with each subsequent person until you get it solved.
posted by ClaireBear at 3:13 PM on August 6 [6 favorites]
(1) Can you find out the allowed noise levels in your city at different times of the day or night, buy a decibel meter, and see how it stacks up? If it's over the limit, I would think that would provide pretty strong argument that the noise is too high.
(2) If there's a physical office where the management/landlord is, I would definitely go there and try to speak with someone. I have unusual success in difficult customer service situations like this. My tips are:
- Remain cheerful, calm, and persistent.
- Start with the working assumption that you're all on the same team, and that of course these folks will want to help you solve the problem you're having in their apartment. Assume good intent always.
- Language like "we" helps pull them into the problem, so it's not you versus them: try to speak about it collaboratively, as such framing makes it hard for them to refuse to help you without seeming like real assholes, which many people are reluctant to do.
- Don't let them end the conversation until they propose some solution or something to try, or someone higher up to contact. In my experience, people will say all sorts of things about how they'll get back to you, and then actually never do, so literally don't leave the building until you have the next thing to try or person to contact.
- Make sure your language is persistent: don't use the subjunctive, or hesitant language, so that they know that you're determined to find a solution, and quickly. (e.g. "I'm here today so that we can solve this problem", rather than "I was hoping you might solve this").
- Use "I" statements rather than accusing people: speak about your own experience and draw the listener in and gain his/her sympathy by encouraging him/her to imagine what it would be like to be in your position. It's a bit of a tough line to walk, but: evoke sympathy but don't show anger - only vulnerable emotions.
- Show that you're a reasonable person who has already taken reasonable steps to solve the problem.
- Be concise and state objective facts, assuming that the person you're speaking with has an attention span of about 1-2 minutes and a listening comprehension level of 3rd grade. Don't be tentative: be clear that you're persistent (and maybe a bit irritating), and so it will be easier to solve your problem than keep dealing with you. Stay calm, polite, cheerful, friendly, and assertive but not aggressive or angry. Smiling is very helpful.
- And make sure you're actually talking to the person who has the power to help you, and try to establish this quickly (very useful tip for customer service calls to companies, who put poorly-paid pawns as the phone-answerers to try to prevent customers from reaching the people who can actually do anything).
If I were in your shoes, I might go to the management office and lead with something like this (smiling, calm tone):
"Hi there, I'm Natalie, the tenant in 3B. I've lived here since 2021, and I've been very happy here: I've also always paid my rent on time and have been a quiet tenant that has never caused a problem. I'm currently having a big issue with my apartment that I'm hoping you can help me with. The new tenants downstairs are extremely loud on a regular basis, late into the night. I've been wearing earplugs and using a fan to block the noise, but unfortunately I can still hear them. I'm sure you can imagine how frustrating this is, especially after a number of nights of poor sleep as a result. I'm here so that we can find a solution to this problem. Are you the best person for me to speak with to solve this, or is there someone else who deals with this kind of thing?"
If they try to fob you off to get you to leave (if they say something like "sorry, nothing's possible"), just continue to be cheerful but persistent, and make clear that solving the problem with you (or escalating you to someone else) is the only way they're going to get you to go away. I've successfully used a line like: "Oh, unfortunately that's not going to work for me. I'm determined to get the ball rolling on a solution today. What else do you suggest? Or who would be a better person to speak to so that we can fix this?". Just keep repeating versions of this until the person there starts working with you, or refers you to someone else. And then rinse and repeat with each subsequent person until you get it solved.
posted by ClaireBear at 3:13 PM on August 6 [6 favorites]
Response by poster: It does actually specifically say that tenants shouldn't make noise that disturbs other tenants
posted by Team of Scientists at 3:14 PM on August 6 [5 favorites]
posted by Team of Scientists at 3:14 PM on August 6 [5 favorites]
It is chicago, the tenant landlord laws falls very very strongly towards tenants. Even if your landlord is 100% on your side and wanted to evict today, the timeline for that can take well over a year.
If the landlord wins, which isn't even a guarantee.
It is still summer, university classes are starting back up between Aug 15 and the 31st for most of the universities around here. It is quite possible that things will get quieter as they get buiser. No promises there.
This suuuucks and is really frustrating but you may want to look more into what it would cost to break your lease and move vs living there because to evict someone in any expedient manner in Chicago takes things that are incredibly egregious.
posted by AlexiaSky at 3:48 PM on August 6 [3 favorites]
If the landlord wins, which isn't even a guarantee.
It is still summer, university classes are starting back up between Aug 15 and the 31st for most of the universities around here. It is quite possible that things will get quieter as they get buiser. No promises there.
This suuuucks and is really frustrating but you may want to look more into what it would cost to break your lease and move vs living there because to evict someone in any expedient manner in Chicago takes things that are incredibly egregious.
posted by AlexiaSky at 3:48 PM on August 6 [3 favorites]
There's a free decibel meter app for iPhone called NIOSH Sound Level Meter if you want to collect some data.
posted by heatherlogan at 4:49 PM on August 6
posted by heatherlogan at 4:49 PM on August 6
Best answer: For specific details on lease breaking in chicago MTO is very helpful by the way. They are amazing people and my one stop referral for difficult landlord situations. I've had good experience with them.
posted by AlexiaSky at 5:59 PM on August 6 [1 favorite]
posted by AlexiaSky at 5:59 PM on August 6 [1 favorite]
Have you talked to the students yourself? They might be more sympathetic to the person they're bothering than they would be to a landlord.
posted by panic at 9:35 PM on August 6 [8 favorites]
posted by panic at 9:35 PM on August 6 [8 favorites]
Best answer: I would go to the leasing office in person, and document your conversation, "spoke with Allison in leasing office this date, she advised me to call corporate."
I would not talk to the students themselves.
posted by MichelleinMD at 4:20 AM on August 7 [1 favorite]
I would not talk to the students themselves.
posted by MichelleinMD at 4:20 AM on August 7 [1 favorite]
I've lived next to a rotating cast of college dudes for eight years now. (I live in a college town, next door to a rental house that gets handed down among an athletic team.)
They're loud, but thanks to a friendly relationship, they're loud within reasonable limits. They have their rowdy front lawn drinking game tournaments in the afternoons, and pack it in before my kid's bedtime.
All they ask is that if they're too loud, I let them know personally instead of calling the cops or otherwise opening them up to a world of trouble.
Yes, people should know not to make a ruckus at 4 am, but people can be oblivious. Especially people who haven't lived among grown adults before.
This is a situation that you can resolve with a polite conversation, not an eviction.
posted by champers at 5:17 AM on August 7 [16 favorites]
They're loud, but thanks to a friendly relationship, they're loud within reasonable limits. They have their rowdy front lawn drinking game tournaments in the afternoons, and pack it in before my kid's bedtime.
All they ask is that if they're too loud, I let them know personally instead of calling the cops or otherwise opening them up to a world of trouble.
Yes, people should know not to make a ruckus at 4 am, but people can be oblivious. Especially people who haven't lived among grown adults before.
This is a situation that you can resolve with a polite conversation, not an eviction.
posted by champers at 5:17 AM on August 7 [16 favorites]
Yeah, agreeing with champers. I'm not seeing that you've ever tried going to the neighbors themselves, you went straight to the landlord.
A lot of times even loud college guys do respond if you make a complaint of some kind. Sometimes they may not even have thought through how much noise they may be making; I have some kids living in the apartment upstairs, and occasionally I used to hear loud thumping and stomping just above my head at night, at about midnight or sometimes a little later. One night I finally went upstairs to talk to them. They apologized and sheepishly explained that the ruckus was just a dorky basketball game they were playing. They stopped immediately, and I haven't heard that kind of noise at all since.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 5:41 AM on August 7 [7 favorites]
A lot of times even loud college guys do respond if you make a complaint of some kind. Sometimes they may not even have thought through how much noise they may be making; I have some kids living in the apartment upstairs, and occasionally I used to hear loud thumping and stomping just above my head at night, at about midnight or sometimes a little later. One night I finally went upstairs to talk to them. They apologized and sheepishly explained that the ruckus was just a dorky basketball game they were playing. They stopped immediately, and I haven't heard that kind of noise at all since.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 5:41 AM on August 7 [7 favorites]
Nth-ing talk to the kids! The odds are just as good that they're well-intentioned but inexperienced in communal living, as that they're deliberately assholes. You don't have to come at them with hostility, just say that you've noticed they sometimes host really late at night, and that you'd really appreciate it if they could keep the noise levels down when they do.
That said, a group of people living together is just loud. Plus, if they're college kids they probably have zero of: rugs, curtains and minimal of: furniture, all of which absorb noise. They don't really have to be doing anything well out of the ordinary to cause a bit of a din. So moving units may well be your best bet here. But first just talk to the kids.
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 7:18 AM on August 7 [3 favorites]
That said, a group of people living together is just loud. Plus, if they're college kids they probably have zero of: rugs, curtains and minimal of: furniture, all of which absorb noise. They don't really have to be doing anything well out of the ordinary to cause a bit of a din. So moving units may well be your best bet here. But first just talk to the kids.
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 7:18 AM on August 7 [3 favorites]
Response by poster: Yeah, no, I am not going to go hat in hand to these guys, sorry. I am reading the room on this one and the room says fuck that.
posted by Team of Scientists at 10:43 AM on August 7
posted by Team of Scientists at 10:43 AM on August 7
There are decibel meter apps for your phone but - they can't really be properly calibrated etc. They are at the mercy of whatever hardware your phone happens to have.
However, actual decibel meters are available - looks like they start at about $25.
posted by flug at 9:45 PM on August 7
However, actual decibel meters are available - looks like they start at about $25.
posted by flug at 9:45 PM on August 7
I'm not sure why a neighborly conversation is being perceived as obsequious and something to be ruled out with extreme prejudice. When dealing with neighbors, diplomacy tends to work best.
posted by champers at 3:40 AM on August 8 [7 favorites]
posted by champers at 3:40 AM on August 8 [7 favorites]
> Blackett v. Olanoff (1977)
Apologies for the further digression, but this piqued my interest, since I have corrected people in the past who thought that "quiet enjoyment" has something to do with noise, and so I took a quick look at this case. The holding was based on a lower court ruling that noise from a bar leased to a different lessee by the same landlord was a "constructive eviction", because the landlord, while not creating the noise, had it in its power to do something about it, but failed to do so. So indeed, this is a case of noise resulting in a breach of the covenant of quiet enjoyment, but it also suggests that the circumstances in which this can arise will be rare.
posted by lex mercatoria at 3:51 PM on August 8 [3 favorites]
Apologies for the further digression, but this piqued my interest, since I have corrected people in the past who thought that "quiet enjoyment" has something to do with noise, and so I took a quick look at this case. The holding was based on a lower court ruling that noise from a bar leased to a different lessee by the same landlord was a "constructive eviction", because the landlord, while not creating the noise, had it in its power to do something about it, but failed to do so. So indeed, this is a case of noise resulting in a breach of the covenant of quiet enjoyment, but it also suggests that the circumstances in which this can arise will be rare.
posted by lex mercatoria at 3:51 PM on August 8 [3 favorites]
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I would look into what your legal rights are where you live, but if you think there's a chance, just start with a friendly conversation to figure out options. If you're willing to leave with some notice and maybe even offer to help the landlord photograph, list, and show the unit, it shouldn't be a big deal.
Ultimately most landlords want:
- Stable tenants who pay rent and don't trash units - So if you offer to take a different vacant unit you're helping them solve the task of renting out that unit, meaning they should be mildly happy about it.
- Minimal drama - so do try to minimize the drama in how you communicate. just be calm, pleasant, and constructive.
- Minimal extra work to re-let the place - so offer to help do the listing and showing. And if you do take another of their units, you're still helping them out a bit in that regard
- A timeline where they can keep the unit rented consistently and don't lose money, so consider offering flexibility in your move-out date.
posted by nouvelle-personne at 2:02 PM on August 6 [2 favorites]