You can fly! How to get my kids to be more independent

June 30, 2024 7:50 PM

Asking the question 1) How can I help my children be more independent/socially outgoing and 2) does their behavior seem normal. 10 and 15 year old kids - I want them to not be afraid of new situations, able to talk to store clerks, and generally independent. When I try to give them tasks, like here's $5 run in and grab a gallon of milk from the corner store while I stay in the car with the baby, they often seem really apprehensive. They would rather stay with the baby. Or if we are at a mall and they have their own money they'd rather give it to me and have me make the purchase vs doing their own transaction.

Not limited to shopping, it's really any kind of interaction with adults. Say asking a librarian a question or something similar. Today we were at a park and the 10 year old wanted to fill her water bottle so I told her to run inside the building, a community center that has a gym and pools, and use the water fountain next to the desk. She wanted me to go with her rather than going by herself while I stayed with the toddler who was at soccer practice.

I feel like when I was a kid I would have jumped on any kind of reason to do something by myself and my kids seem very reluctant. We live in a small community and people are generally friendly so I'm not sure where the anxiety is coming from. I do try to play out the scenarios, like It's ok, you are going to walk in and to the left of the desk there's a water fountain. If the desk attendant says hello you can say that you just want to fill up your bottle.Its okay because we are here using the soccer field.

If you were anxious about these things as a child is there anything that your parents could have done differently to help?

posted by MadMadam to Human Relations (35 answers total)

I do try to play out the scenarios, like It's ok, you are going to walk in and to the left of the desk there's a water fountain. If the desk attendant says hello you can say that you just want to fill up your bottle.Its okay because we are here using the soccer field.

This seems perfect to me.

So I'm autistic, and unfamiliar social interaction still puts me in the "I can't go into a new coffee shop because I don't know what to expect" mode even though I'm 52.

So your kids might not be as intensely socially anxious as I am.

But in general, when it comes to desensitising someone to an experience, two things apply:

1) stay just on the edge of their window of tolerance, as no one can learn when overwhelmed. Trust them to define when discomfort turns into overwhelm.

2)exposure therapy might work for irrational fear, but it doesn't work for pain, or rational fear. See if you can figure out how rational their fear is and trust them to know the difference.

The example you give above of helping your kids know what to expect in an unfamiliar situation is perfect, and what I would have found helpful when I was a child.

In case it's helpful, how to tell the difference between social anxiety and autism
posted by Zumbador at 8:02 PM on June 30 [7 favorites]

Best answer: I grew up in a small community and couldn't talk to anyone! To me, this is "public speaking" and the key is ( I learned from toastmasters) is that every time you do public speaking it gets easier.
So I would say, if you want to put them through a crash course, I would try to do one every time you are out.
But I would say try to find places you know are super friendly at first. I don't know what that would be? Maybe give the kid a dollar and have them run into the pet shelter to make a donation every time you can. Pick the friendliest coffee shop in town to have them run in and get you a coffee?
I would practice how to do small talk.
I think fast food take out is kind of intimidating at first. I would avoid that at first.
"Community centers" that have gyms and pools? Completely intimidating to me when I was young. Even though I used them every day in the summer. Always a middle-aged scary muscled guy in charge who yells at you for the slightest transgression (my experience).

Practice, practice, practice.
posted by cda at 8:07 PM on June 30 [8 favorites]

Just a drive by to say my kid and the others around her were all like this until 11/ 12!
posted by tristeza at 8:32 PM on June 30 [1 favorite]

Best answer: This was me as well! Thank you for asking this question and trying to help your kids out. Agree that playing out scenarios together is a good start; as a kid I had a really hard time interpreting verbal instructions (always took things either too literally or not literally enough) so I would take that one step further and practice doing the thing together, deliberately framing it as a practice run ("next time I want you to try doing this by yourself!") so they are more likely to observe what you're doing closely rather than just spacing out.

For me, I think the root cause of this is was the gnawing anxiety that everyone else in the world "already knew" how to do all this stuff and fear of being singled out/mocked for being unfamiliar with a place or process. Which IMO is not unreasonable when you're young and anxious and genuinely don't know how to do stuff! Ultimately (and unintentionally), what actually helped to tackle that was, as a young adult, getting a public-facing service job. Within a few months I realized that a) members of "the public" can be so ridiculous that the bar for acceptable behaviour is so, so low, and b) truly, the person behind the counter has probably seen it all and DGAF as long as you're reasonable and polite. Unfortunately this is not something you can implement yourself (is there someone in your life with such a job that would be willing/able to let them "shadow" for a day?), but perhaps something to encourage in the future.
posted by btfreek at 8:57 PM on June 30 [7 favorites]

Our generation we were feral by 8-10 but this generation seems more reluctant so 10-12 is more the age. We just make sure they keep practicing.

It also seems to be the neighborhood/social group? We moved to a new area where it is not uncommon to see kids walking by themselves at 8-10 and my kids see it regularly and have modified their behavior accordingly. So maybe think of places where lots of kids might congregate and act naturally among themselves, and let your kids witness and be there.

The other thing is the power of the group. We did things as a cluster back then. It really helps! So if your kid goes into the store they will be way more comfortable in a group. So if their friend’s parents allow it, send them as a group to the corner store to get milk. The safety of the group helps a lot and they build confidence together.
posted by St. Peepsburg at 9:19 PM on June 30 [1 favorite]

Best answer: I was like this as a kid. My parents were really cool with it and would be understanding if I didn't want to talk to an adult by myself or buy something without them present. I appreciated it.

Like, in both of your proposed scenarios, I would have found those tasks pretty stressful, especially in a small community, because I would have been likely to see people I knew/been expected to chat with them without the grounding presence of an adult. What worked best for me was having younger children/peers to take care of/help out.

For example, when I was 14, my high school band flew across the country for a performance and then it was my friends who were socially anxious (afraid to ask the chaperone if we could buy snacks, afraid to call the front desk to ask for more towels even though we only had two towels with four girls in one room). So in that situation, I was 100% willing to put myself out there and ask the chaperone/call the front desk because I needed to take care of my friends.

Similarly, I would happily buy things/manage things for my much younger sibling because it wasn't developmentally appropriate for them to be handling cash. They grew up to be fantastic in social situations, fwiw.

As an adult, I still find justifying my presence in a community center (e.g., "Just filling up my water bottle! No, I'm not interested in the new sports league- thanks!") or chatting with the cashier at the grocery store super fatiguing, but I get on with it because I value social appropriateness. Additionally, I'll willingly call a friend's doctor to help arrange an appointment for them and experience less social exhaustion than I would managing my own healthcare.

Similar to what cda referenced, I had sooo many crappy experiences with adults as a kid and minimal tolerance for it consequently. As an adult who now works with children and their families, I frequently observe educational staff interacting very differently with children when parents are present. It's extraordinary how many people are unkind to children.

I agree with suggestions to inquire about your kids' perspectives and talk them through the situations. These are great ways to help your children feel supported and also help you narrow down what's going on in their individual experiences. And if your kids could be similar to me as a kid, maybe contrive ways for them to practice these skills by supporting others and be mindful of the fact that their social battery may not match your own.

Final suggestion that might be a little off-topic: It was incredibly helpful for me to know that I could lie to adults and that I had my parents' permission to lie to adults. Somehow we all grow up and learn that it's totally okay to lie to strangers to get out of situations that make us uncomfortable, but I really had to have my parents explicitly tell me "It is okay to lie!" in our conversations about stranger danger/safety because I was such a rule-follower.
posted by dearadeline at 9:20 PM on June 30 [15 favorites]

I was anxious about this as a kid back in the early 2000s because I was afraid of the passive aggressiveness of getting something wrong as an undiagnosed neurodivergent kid and being shamed for it. (Undiagnosed and neurodivergent not even being known words back then, you know...)

It also didn't help that I could tell my mom getting annoyed with me for being too scared to talk to servers and would literally tell me to 'stop being scared' and 'just order.' Like yeah I get it that you're impatient, but your anxiety about my anxiety makes it worse, but I didn't have the language to tell my mom that I was annoyed with her anxiety so I just dealt with it.

What I figured out was that I could simply explain to the person in question that this is my first time, and I'm not sure what to do, and if they could kindly show me through it. I also asked my mom explain to me step by step what to do (and then realized when she did things wrong and had to explain it to her that she should try this instead.)

I did this throughout K-12, but it was really helpful when I was 18 and had to go to college and was absolutely terrified of all interactions, and thankfully I moved to a really nice college town where everyone is very sweet. Encourage them to ask explicitly what they need and to communicate, especially because in the future, neurodivergent adults are judged poorly for not knowing unspoken rules, and even my jerk-ass professors still judge students like that and I have to advocate for them.
posted by yueliang at 9:40 PM on June 30 [8 favorites]

Begin where you are.

whatever they are comfortable with, begin there. slowly and incrementally, ramp up.

don't be judgy towards them, even in very slight tone or glance.
posted by j_curiouser at 9:58 PM on June 30 [5 favorites]

Think of it like an apprenticeship. Perhaps you felt you were more daring also because the activities you were doing were done by modelling your parents moving in that physical space, so what you picked up was more organically driven. Consider perhaps your kids have a different sense of physical space eg more time spent in cars and not as much time picking up social cues and locations by having to actually physically move with you from place to place.

Signpost a particular activity you'd like them to do independently in the future on that day. Considering the toddler care duty, maybe take turns or stagger which kid can do what with you. Bring them physically along, not just generally point them to a location. Using your examples, I'd say that one duty to add for a kid is water refill duty - take the kid along with you for the first couple of times. Over time, expand this role or place. Be sure to let them know you're always at the park or on the phone. Same thing with the milk purchase. Basically, make sure it's a trip for them to keep their attention on, not just mindlessly follow along.
posted by cendawanita at 10:22 PM on June 30 [2 favorites]

You can work up to these things a bit more gently. For example, try having the kid buy something on their own in a really familiar store while you're standing right there. Maybe even start the conversation with the cashier and say that the kid is going to buy something. Do that a few times. Then try standing a little bit further away (but you're there to step in if necessary). Then try standing just outside. Then try staying in the car.

You may need to start the whole sequence again for an unfamiliar place, but that's fine.

Also while you're doing this process, you're in a position to see how the interactions go, so if anything a bit awkward happens, you can go over it afterwards with the kid and talk about what they could have said.
posted by quacks like a duck at 11:08 PM on June 30 [5 favorites]

Best answer: I was like this as a kid and hated it about myself and it made me feel afraid for my future. What helped was my mom kind of lying to me that “it’s normal to be scared of this kind of stuff when you’re little but as kids grow up they just naturally get more and more confident.”

And so then i started trying little things i was scared of and psyching myself up by telling myself i was getting older and probably it would be ok and then if it didn’t go ok i was like “oh well i guess I’m not old enough yet and will try again later”

Like i got tricked into building my own confidence by having the fear both normalized and told it would go away naturally - like getting taller. I didn’t feel responsible for it or like it was a personal failing.
posted by congen at 1:29 AM on July 1 [23 favorites]

So, I send my kids (10 and 13) out to buy stuff on their own all the time, even on public transport. They are treat motivated and like being the boss of buying their own treats. So my first advice is, make buying things a reward at the beginning.

That said, I think the water bottle scenario is high stakes. Because as a kid, you're constantly doing stuff you think is fine, your parents have told you it's fine, and then some adult turns up, like, "WHAT ARE YOU DOING, KIDS ARE NOT ALLOWED IN HERE WITHOUT ADULT SUPERVISION" or dumb stuff like that. And as a kid this can be extremely stressful and scary. They want to avoid doing anything where they aren't sure it'll be fine and routine.

So I guess build up their confidence by training them on routine things like grocery store shopping. Ease into it like others have said above. When they were 5 or 6, I'd give them the money for their candy and they'd go infront of me in line, buy the candy, and then I'd be behind them, paying for the rest of the family groceries. I'd be right behind, coaching them on "and now say thank you", "and now take the change" etc. If you think about it, buying stuff is a very complex sequence of actions with a lot of potential for things to go wrong. We're used to it but they're not.
Later, I'd stand by the door and let them do it themselves. They'd still glance over a lot to make sure they were doing ok. And often the cashier would try to upsell or something and I'd have to intervene from the doorway.

If we were in a museum tour and they had questions, I encouraged them to ask the guide. I told them that the guides would be happy to get their questions because they wanted to be asked things. I think kids feel more secure when they hear that it's not only ok but actively encouraged, that the adults are rooting for them to do this thing.

Snd then afterwards I wouldn't praise them for being brave because that reinforces that it was a scary thing. Instead, I'd be all "oh hey, thanks so much for buying the bread this morning, that was such a big help", or "OMG you got the big candy, that's amazing" - focussing on the win.
posted by Omnomnom at 1:59 AM on July 1 [14 favorites]

Oh and my final advice: Tell them what happens if it goes wrong. I still literally say, "and if for some reason it doesn't work or you can't find the thing, you come out again and we'll do it together. No big deal. But try it on your own first."
My impression is that they trust me in that and it helps them give it a try.


I vividly remember my dad making me (8 yo) buy him a bottle of orange soda at a kiosk, which I'd never done before. He felt I should know how to do this because in his mind I was old enough, never mind that I had no experience. I was terrified. I chickened out and bought a bottle of coke instead, because that was what the man infront of me got and therefore at least I knew they HAD that and were willing to sell it. When I came back, he got really mad at me and it was all high drama. Anyway, my dad sucked.
posted by Omnomnom at 2:13 AM on July 1 [12 favorites]

Been there. We did lots of little pocket money errands to the thrift shop, dollar store, convenience store to buy trinkets, stickers, candy and talk to the familiar staff. Paying for their own purchase with you at counter, nearby, just outside the door. Lots of trips to the library and checking books out at the counter. Going for a walk where there are friendly dogs walking, and asking the owners if you can pat them. Etc etc. Microdosing interactions with strangers. The kids had some big disruptions in the last few years; we are still catching up.
posted by slightlybewildered at 3:31 AM on July 1 [5 favorites]

So your kids are Gen Alpha/cusp of Gen Z. The generation they follow up (Gen Z) won't make phone calls. Millenials hate phone calls, but Gen Zers just... won't make or answer them.

Probably if your kids could WhatsApp the person at the desk or Uber Eats a water delivery, they'd be fine.

I don't mean that maliciously at all; I'm trying to point out that social interaction norms change between generations and that the "when I was a kid..." advice is probably not as useful as people hope it will be because generational shifts are accelerating at the literal pace of technology. I think the roleplaying and microdosing routes are the best suggestions but I think you will probably arrive at a functional adulthood that looks different to what you may assume functional adulthood looks like.
posted by DarlingBri at 4:59 AM on July 1 [5 favorites]

I actually talk to my kids explicitly about anxiety and (as in all things) how my job is to help them become adults eventually. We came up with “challenges” together. Another thing that helped is making things regular - ordering a hot chocolate after piano lessons, etc.

Progress isn’t always linear, but it’s working well so far. I would say for my 18 year old it has worked.
posted by warriorqueen at 5:27 AM on July 1 [2 favorites]

Agree with darlingbri here, my parent friends and I talk about how our kids avoid face-to-face Interactions or phone calls with strangers. Call about something important because there is not an email address? Walk in and ask the manager if they are hiring? Unthinkable! Embarrassing! Outrageous! Well into young adulthood. With that said, the same suggestions will contribute to normalizing these behaviors to some extent.
posted by RoadScholar at 5:45 AM on July 1 [2 favorites]

If you were anxious about these things as a child is there anything that your parents could have done differently to help?


The main thing I could have used (as some others have already pointed out) is validating my anxiety and explicitly treating the whole process as learning to overcome a challenge. My own mother leaned very heavily on "This isn't hard!" in an attempt to motivate me to do things that I found intimidating, like speaking to strangers, cooking, etc. This was exactly the wrong approach, because 1) it invalidated my feelings and 2) made me feel shame over the problem, which I then internalized as "I'm not able to do this easy thing, so I'll probably never do it." It sounds like you're on the right track, walking them through the scenario and allowing it to be difficult.

The other thing I'd suggest strongly you avoid is any sense of "When I was a kid, I'd have jumped at this." The world is different, but also, your kids are not you. There is no inherent natural state of "boldness" in childhood any more than there is "shyness," it's all going to vary by context, society, upbringing, and the random grab bag of genetics. "Where is this coming from," you wonder - it doesn't matter. Help them develop the skills, listen to them, keep gently pushing them but don't make them feel flawed or wrong for being imperfect. But keep your expectations and assumptions tucked away, however strongly you may feel them.
posted by Tomorrowful at 5:53 AM on July 1 [8 favorites]

I think you're skipping a couple of steps, the ones before this actually becomes useful for you (but I think that part comes pretty fast, so do not despair!):

Step One: rehearse in private. And it feels like a throwback, but in your home practice scenarios you can actually start with semi-emergencies. As a feral 80s kid, we DID role-play this stuff in school and we also had a lot of PSA programming rolled into our cartoons and TV shows - we even had firemen come to our class with unplugged telephones and we all took turns "calling" and politely and clearly stating our emergency and giving our home addresses, describing where we were if we didn't know the address, etc. (We also practiced looking up the 7-digit emergency phone number in the phone book!) This is where you can roll in some practice in staying calm and being understood and listening carefully to any questions or instructions. Getting some water or buying lunch gets a LOT less intimidating when you've role-played calling in the neighbor's house on fire or witnessing a car accident.

Step Two: you have to go with them at first. And yeah, if that means everybody goes to the convenience store and you stand there as each kid conducts their own transaction with you coaching, so be it. And I want to say the second time you should have them get something they have to ask the cashier for, but aside from maybe batteries (?) that really only leaves you with cigarettes and lottery tickets so maybe not. My dad used to make me go in and prepay gas with cash, so that's an option (although you should ALSO be teaching them how to pay at the pump and let them do that, too, when you get gas).

I know you THINK they're paying attention when you handle these transactions, but they are not. You'll have to be like hey, we're going to go buy a gatorade and a Big Bite, eyes on me because there will be a quiz after and if you fail I'm eating your Big Bite.

When you do the hand-holding runs, you should set the expectation that they will say the hello and thank you part if nothing else. It'll help ease them in, but also if you encourage that particular behavior first it'll become more automatic.

THEN you can turn them loose and kinda force them to do it on their own. Remember: kids today are feral in an entirely different way, as they went several years with almost no human interaction outside the home.

You may need to manufacture some additional situations for them, especially the 15yo. You'll get them there, sooner than you fear, but it is a baby-steps process.
posted by Lyn Never at 6:54 AM on July 1 [3 favorites]

Make sure you are supporting your kids autonomy in all the small interactions. My partner and I created every opportunity for our children to interact with adults at every possible opportunity.

When an adult asks them a question, do you answer for them? Let them answer first, and unless it's critical information-sharing like at a doctors office, , let their answer suffice.

When an adult asks you about your kids school, activities, etc. with your kid standing there, re-direct the question to your child: make sure they have the opportunity (and your tacit approval) to speak to their own experiences, and to answer follow-up questions. And again, let their answer suffice.

Starting in elementary school, when one of our children have a problem at school, we'd sit down with them, have them dictate a letter to their teacher (with some VERY minimal guidance on wording), and then have them take the letter to their teacher. We'd write a brief note at the bottom stating "Kid dictated this letter with a little help, please let me know if you would like to speak directly, signed Parent A" so the teacher would know we were aware of the issue and would be tracking the results.

Kids get used to speaking to adults in the big things only through speaking to adults in the little things. A lot of this comes from teaching them the tools and then stepping back.
posted by Silvery Fish at 7:22 AM on July 1 [3 favorites]

Not to push an agenda, but I find the book "The Coddling of the American Mind" to be on topic here. And they have a whole list of suggestions to raise "free-range kids".

1. Prepare the Child for the Road, Not the Road for the Child (of 8)

A. Assume that your kids are more capable this month than they were last month.

B. Let your kids take more small risks, and let them learn from getting some bumps and bruises.

C. Learn about Lenore Skenazy’s Free-Range Kids movement, and incorporate her lessons into your family’s life. (Start by reading Free Range Kids, from Amazon, or BN)

D. Visit LetGrow.org,

E. Encourage your children to walk or ride bicycles to and from school at the earliest ages possible, consistent with local circumstances of distance, traffic, and crime. It may help you to "let go" if you get them the wonderful Gizmo Watch. It lets the child call and be called by just 10 phone numbers, and it lets you see where the child is on a map. Jon gave it to his daughter for her 9th birthday, which made her and her parents very comfortable letting her walk to school and do errands in NYC.
Jon wishes he had given it to her for her 7th birthday.

F. Help your kids find a community of kids in the neighborhood who come from families that share your commitment to avoid overprotection. You can do this on this page at Letgrow.org. See (and send around) this article on "playborhoods."

G. Send your children to an overnight summer camp in the woods for a few weeks— without devices.

H. Encourage your children to engage in a lot of “productive disagreement.” (Here is the essay by Adam Grant that we drew from.)

I. Be sure your children get plenty of exercise. It has so many protective effects, including for mental health [links and cites to come; perhaps Spark, by John Ratey]

NOTE: By copy and paste I lost the hyperlinks, so please click through list of suggestions above to get to the original.
​
posted by kschang at 7:29 AM on July 1 [2 favorites]

Lots of good stuff in the replies already. I can't speak to what this is like with a 15 year old, but re: the 10 year old, as tristeza said, my kid balked at things like this at 10 and got more into it at 11. We'd run through the interaction (e.g., running in to check out a book that we'd requested from the library, where we know the librarians are friendly and helpful) and sometimes it was still a strong no, in which case that felt important to heed. By the next year it was much easier to ride the wave of 'I'm growing up/want to be grown.'

Also echoing normalizing the anxiety and scaffolding the task. For food ordering, I've done things like rehearsing what the conversation is likely to include/what questions might be asked and then both going in together but making separate orders so I'm there if things go off the rails but not involved/monitoring otherwise. In recognition of the fact that it would be very easy to raise a kid who was absolutely incapable of making a phone call, I've looked for opportunities to make those happen as well, though they tend to be less frequent. Here, too, we've rehearsed and then kid makes the call on speakerphone with me there. Over time these supports are withdrawn because they're no longer necessary but the backup plan (basically, come find me) is always there.

Last, I love a good minor social interaction and this is something my kid notices and that we talk about explicitly. I don't think this is something that totally eliminates the anxiety but I do think it helps to witness/experience regular positive exchanges with strangers and helps build up some social scripts for how to come away from an interaction not just having accomplished a set task but also feeling good about it. (Teaching 'how to get off the phone' has been hilarious because it really is kind of a subtle art, but without hearing your parent(s) do it a bunch--and whomst among us is on the phone that much at this point--how would you ever know?)
posted by wormtales at 7:30 AM on July 1 [2 favorites]

Similar to what Silvery Fish wrote, how much of your kids' time are they able to spend in an unstructured way, without any adult supervision? I recently read the book Stolen Focus. I know a book about attention might not seem relevant, but there are a couple of chapters about children and research looking into the rise of anxiety and how this is linked to an inability of kids to focus. The TL:DR is that when kids are able to spend a lot of time unsupervised by adults, just playing with other kids, there is a lot of benefit to them. You may be interested in the Let Grow Movement, which provides resources to encourage child independence.

Edit: I see kschang beat me to it on mentioning Let Grow.
posted by coffeecat at 7:35 AM on July 1 [1 favorite]

Best answer: Use "Scaffolding" to help them kind of add "one step at a time" to what they CAN do.
Starting at the car for the kid to - 1-enter the building, 2-approach the fountain 3-talk to the clerk. That's 4 steps, and the kid is showing you that's too many. So break it down and each day focus on the kid doing one final step a little more independently, until they can do that step alone... then backtrack so they do each previous step more independently too.

You scaffold with them (I made up the names for these steps but here's the idea)

1. You let them observe as you MODEL (you do it perfectly while they watch, including a consistent and perfect SCRIPT they can say even if the clerk doesn't ask) - repeat several times so the steps are totally familiar
2. You do it and the kid ECHOES (you do that step and they copy (also saying hi to Clerk) or do half (taking the change from a cashier but not giving the cash) - repeat several times so the steps are totally familiar
3. You're a SAFE CLOSE PRESENCE as the kid does it (you stand right beside them)
4. You're a WATCHING EYE as the kid does it (you hang back across the room, but within sight)
5. You're a SAFE DISTANT PRESENCE as the kid does it (you're out of sight but within earshot, ie, in the hallway),
6. You're a MORE DISTANT PRESENCE - maybe you wait just outside the exterior door
7. FULL INDEPENDENCE (you stay in the car).

Step One - You model the whole thing with the kid. Enter together, approach fountain, talk to clerk. You say the whole thing the kid MIGHT have to one day say: "Hi! We're here for soccer, is it OK if I fill this?" so the kid knows what to say if asked. Then you fill the bottle and leave together. Maybe do this a few times. Always say the same thing so they get used to the script.

Step Two - Enter with them, go to the fountain with them, but this time, challenge them to say the thing -"Hi, we're here for soccer etc" with you right beside them.

Step Three - You enter with them, but hang back - stay a few steps away at the other side of the lobby, so kid can see you but they still are doing the clerk chat and fountain alone.

Step Four - You enter with them but this time you wait further away, at the exterior door. Now kid can't see you but they could come back to you fast or call you if needed. Kid approaches the fountain, fills the bottle, and talks to the clerk.

Do this step a few different days so kid can have practice with different clerks who may say different things, or in case there's other stuff happening at the desk that may make the vibe different on different days or creates the need for kid to slightly change the script - for instance if Clerk says hi first, or is on the phone, or questions kid, or it's a different clerk who's more direct or more chatty or whatever - there are a lot of small variables that seem minor to an adult but are more intimidating for a kid! Give them ample time to practice in different scenarios so they realize they know what to do and their knowledge is strong enough to apply even in different conditions!

Step Five - Go with them but this time stay OUTSIDE the door so they "look" alone to the clerk, but the kid also knows they can just call you or quickly run back to you.

Step Six - Stay at the exterior door so the kid can't see you OR call you, but you're still close.

Step Seven - Stay in the car!

Expect this process to take about 10 visits. Each time, you scaffold by staying with kid as they WATCH, then ECHO, then SOLO the skill, with you further and further away.

Over time, as kid gains confidence doing one process (water bottle), that confidence will spill over to other things (buy milk).

Gradually, new tasks will not require so many steps! But forcing them to do all of the steps alone when they're not ready will increase their overall anxiety and will make everything else take longer too.
posted by nouvelle-personne at 8:40 AM on July 1 [6 favorites]

The 15 year old might balk at being coached like this because AWKWARD or whatever. In that case teach the 10 year old while 15 year old side eyes the whole operation. Always try to send them out as a team. She'll learn soon enough, no one wants to be outdone by the kid sibling!
posted by Omnomnom at 8:49 AM on July 1 [4 favorites]

I’m a little alarmed when I hear about parents going with kids to job interviews, and kids not getting drivers licenses so quickly anymore etc. so this is a topic close to my heart. I have a book called “life skills for special children” that I’m using with my kids (7 and 8) and you’d be surprised what they don’t teach in school anymore (how to tell people your address for example, my older child didn’t know how to write his full name) and that book covered a lot of it.

As far as going out to do stuff independently, I ended up getting a little tough- if they wanted fancy snacks they had to go into the corner shop and buy it themselves and I eventually got them to go out to the park themselves. I don’t speak the local language so my older son had to start ordering for himself if he wanted a subway sandwich- so that’s a good way, they ask about 5 questions.

We are still pretty behind in terms of chores and actually packing their own backpacks and stuff but I also very much try not to help them too much with their homework. I’m present but I don’t do it for them. I also make them get their own balls from the neighbors etc.
posted by pairofshades at 9:09 AM on July 1

Echoing what coffeecat said -- something I forgot to mention was that I learned how to do all of this when I was running around my neighborhood and local stores with other elementary schoolers/middle schoolers/high schoolers unsupervised. It was really important for us to learn how to navigate on our own and to trust storekeepers to know they were dealing with a bunch of kids, although we were all really well-behaved and not like the Sephora demon children that mix up makeup for breakfast.

I don't even know if that's possible in this day and age, but that unstructured, unsupervised time to practice when we weren't with our parents was absolutely crucial for development. We also were given reminders by our parents to make sure that we were treating shopkeepers well, that we had our cash and ID, etc etc.
posted by yueliang at 10:14 AM on July 1

I think there's more anxiety in general these days, and, you know, we did not live through anything like the pandemic or these doom times. Kids did lose a few years of social development, so I think it's good to give them grace. It's also not always helpful to do the "When I was your/their age" thing, because we don't always remember the context or with real accuracy. Also, they get to be different.

I'd say to scaffold this. Buying a gallon of milk at the corner store by yourself is a big deal. Going to a familiar convenience store with parent and having a few dollars in your pocket and choosing a piece of candy, while parent is nearby, and then doing the money exchange at the register, while parent is several steps away, is a great first step.

Also, it might be helpful to think of the times when you've only gone someplace where someone else is driven. The first time you have to drive yourself, you might realize you don't know the route, even though you've been on it a dozen times. Our kids aren't necessarily paying attention while we are in charge. So I say to start with someone high reward (a reward for them, not just something you need) and low risk (a very familiar place).

And finally, having the toddler around might mean they don't feel like they get quite enough attention. Toddler is getting attended to all the time. Maybe they want some attending to? If you can, I'd make the scaffolding trips to the convenience store something you do just with that kiddo and not the toddler in tow. That could also be part of the reward.
posted by bluedaisy at 10:33 AM on July 1 [2 favorites]

To reiterate the point- your 15 year old was 11-12 during the pandemic, which a lot of posters agree was an important time in building the confidence for independence. For your 15 year old this is a huge factor. For that child I would start working with them with a goal in mind - for example, getting a summer job next year. How can you build their confidence to approach a task like this?

With teenagers, they have to want to change and welcome your support. The child needs to be motivated. For example, my kid would lose her bank card, I made her talk to the bank to replace it. At first with me sitting beside her, then later by herself. She was motivated because she needed cash. My 17 year old is now great on the phone.

I would really work on your teenager, again not forcing things on the child but running a propaganda program for alternative ways to live. You should be very motivated for this child. If this child can drive on time, and interact with society in a productive way, then your free time expands significantly and you can go away for the weekend. I really pushed the driving is the key to freedom message, if you push this message in the car you have a captive audience. If you’re annoying enough when you drive, your child will be motivated to learn by the reward of getting away from your lectures! (Or they’ll take transit but either way you save time).

You can also decide not to do things with your kid any more. Did you really want to sit in the hair salon while they get their hair cut? Give them means to pay, along with money for a snack, then you can leave after the consultation. Did you really want to sit there and pick out the 15 year olds clothes? Just give them money, drop them off to shop, and get them later (or have them take transit). If your kid wants a hair cut or new things, this is how it works from now on. Motivation. Notice how this also frees up your time. You should be motivated.

Once you have the older one independently managing money and doing things, the younger one may get motivated to qualify for those perks. Give the younger a structured path to success.
posted by shock muppet at 11:31 AM on July 1 [1 favorite]

Response by poster: Thanks all. I marked some answers as best but really appreciate reading the different perspectives and will try to incorporate some of the ideas I've found here.
posted by MadMadam at 11:34 AM on July 1

Our daughters' 12 and pretty anxious. I've been having her do things like go up to get a soda refill for several years.

Also keep in mind kids this age missed some development due to the pandemic.
posted by kirkaracha at 12:44 PM on July 1 [1 favorite]

Two small things to add about my experience with two (the younger of which is the same age as the older of yours).

First, development in this area was very non-linear. It came in fits and starts, but really ramped up with geographic freedom, when they could go places on their own. First when they were old enough to walk into town on their own after school, and second when the older one started driving.

Second, giving them debit cards off of their own accounts helped with the shopping quite a bit, and is a good life skill either way. We transferred their allowance to them and when they made random money with babysitting and stuff they could either keep it in cash or have us 'deposit' it by transferring them money and taking the cash.

Those two combined made it pretty seamless - now the 17 year old is driving to work, stopping for food on the way there, and getting paid via direct deposit. Not all the life skills you'll need, but a good start.
posted by true at 1:39 PM on July 1

I was that kid. One thing that helped was that I copied everything my older sibling did, and my older sibling was not as terrified and liked being in charge of things. At some point I decided it was simply not cool to be a baby. Nobody told me I was being a baby, but I just picked that up.

Does the younger look up to the older? If so I’d work with the older one and let the younger observe (jealously) and they’ll get there in no time. Can you tell the older one like “I need your help with younger today because I’m so busy. You’re in charge of ice cream. Here’s how you order and pay at this place.”
posted by kapers at 4:37 PM on July 1

Also, sometimes baptism by fire works. I had never taken a public bus (my town was in the middle of nowhere, no buses) when I became an exchange student at 15. My first day there I had to take a bus (alone, in a foreign country, before the age of cell phones) and I just…figured it out, because I didn’t have any other option. Not saying send them overseas, just saying that one day they’ll find themselves sufficiently motivated (maybe a day out with a friend or something) and they’ll just do it.

As an adult I still far prefer to stick to my routines. And I’ll research how unfamiliar bus systems work and I’ll look at pictures of restaurant interiors etc. to see how ordering works, and I’ll write out scripts when I have to call the vet and all that. So I agree with others that this is one of those things that’s uncomfortable for some of us forever, and that is normal and okay too.
posted by kapers at 4:50 PM on July 1

After they've done it a few times, for me at least I have always found it very useful to have my anxiety dismissed. Not told that I don't feel that way, but shown that it was unnecessary. No, you don't need to run through a script again for talking to the cashier, you can handle it. No, you don't need me to watch you to use the stove. You will be fine and you can figure it out.

It was really confidence-building for me - I had always just figured I was supposed to be supervised or to follow the procedure/script precisely, and hearing that it's ok to just wing it and use my judgment was liberating.
posted by Lady Li at 6:20 PM on July 2