I love my spouse but I hated living in their hometown
May 24, 2024 7:32 AM Subscribe
I have been really, really struggling with how to manage my spouse wanting to be near her family in Baltimore and me really hating living there.
I met my spouse while we were both living back east as twentysomethings. I was always very clear from when we started dating that I didn't intend to stay back east forever (missed the nature and laid back energy of the west). Well, I fell in love and have been struggling with how to compromise on this issue for several years.
She grew up in Baltimore and her entire family is there. Before meeting me, she had always lived within a few hours of her parents. She is close to her mom and pretty close to her sister and has some really good lifelong friends there. She moved out west for me when I got into grad school and we absolutely adored living in the PNW for several years. But, after grad school she had a job and her family back home. I willingly said let's do it! and we moved to Baltimore right before the start of the pandemic. I felt really optimistic and excited about the move.
The months before the pandemic were all signs that this was not going to be a good fit for me. I had a tough time getting a job that didn't require a 2-hour each way commute, humidity that made it feel awful to be outside in the summer, I haven't owned a car in years and the aggressive driving and traffic were terrifying. My wife never really brought me around much before so I felt really lonely and not part of these really long-term friend groups (most of her Baltimore friends have never been very friendly to me). I felt like I had given up all the things that were important to me to be there and then the pandemic hit.
I was thousands of miles away from my parents, who spent the pandemic extremely isolated. I felt far away from my friends. My new job was greatly impacted by the pandemic and became incredibly stressful and intense. I haven't owned a car for years and am not a confident driver, a few coworkers were beaten pretty badly during muggings, it felt very unsafe to bike and often felt unsafe to be a pedestrian, dealing with city services was a nightmare every single time. The vibe in Baltimore just felt mean and difficult. I already felt lonely and sort of down on the move to Baltimore in the months before the pandemic but after it hit I felt incredibly trapped and alone.
I felt so frustrated being in Baltimore and was desperate to move back to the PNW. We agreed that it was better for both of us on the whole out there and made plans to move. We've been back in the PNW for over a year but my wife really, really misses her family. I have been trying to get out of my pandemic depression funk, but I feel like this time around we have not been able to get back into the fun swing of things we had when we lived in the PNW before. So now we are back out here and clicking in with friends has been hard (people moved farther out and had kids). I realize grad school gave me a lot of structure and sense of meaning and community that I'm finding really hard to replace. I feel enormous guilt that she is so far from her family (her mom doesn't really fly, so not an option for her to come out here) and lifelong friends to be somewhere where we have no family and don't have those kind of "been friends since we were teenagers" friendships.
After our parents have both had major health scares I am really feeling like my priorities have shifted from wanting to go to fun activities and check out restaurants to focusing on deeper relationships with friends and family. For example, if we stay out here my wife won't really get to be regular part of life seeing her niece and nephew grow up. I am an only child and my divorced parents are both single with no other family besides me and I'm starting to realize that when my parents are gone I won't have any close family left.
I have offered that we can always move back, especially if my wife's mother needs help, but she had the attitude of we agreed to do spend our lives in the PNW so that's what we're going to do. I feel so much guilt and our relationship has felt strained since we moved back. She has been so sad and I know her family and her close friends are really sad that we moved. I already felt like an outsider and now I feel like this destructive force that has harmed all these super meaningful relationships without being able to offer an alternative sense of family or community. My wife works remotely so is able to visit Baltimore whenever she wants, but she has found these visits really tough emotionally. She's usually particularly sad when she gets home.
As much as I love it here and really hated it there, I am feeling torn up and emotional about the choice to move. I want so badly for both of us to be happy with where we live and I find myself thinking about all kinds of impractical potential solutions. I fantasize about renting or subletting a place in Baltimore for a month so at least once a year she could get some real time home in her own space. Baltimore is about half the housing cost of where we currently live, what if we bought a place there but spent summers in the PNW.
I'm hoping for some kind advice from folks who have found themselves in similar situations. Please do not be snarky or snide in the comments.
I met my spouse while we were both living back east as twentysomethings. I was always very clear from when we started dating that I didn't intend to stay back east forever (missed the nature and laid back energy of the west). Well, I fell in love and have been struggling with how to compromise on this issue for several years.
She grew up in Baltimore and her entire family is there. Before meeting me, she had always lived within a few hours of her parents. She is close to her mom and pretty close to her sister and has some really good lifelong friends there. She moved out west for me when I got into grad school and we absolutely adored living in the PNW for several years. But, after grad school she had a job and her family back home. I willingly said let's do it! and we moved to Baltimore right before the start of the pandemic. I felt really optimistic and excited about the move.
The months before the pandemic were all signs that this was not going to be a good fit for me. I had a tough time getting a job that didn't require a 2-hour each way commute, humidity that made it feel awful to be outside in the summer, I haven't owned a car in years and the aggressive driving and traffic were terrifying. My wife never really brought me around much before so I felt really lonely and not part of these really long-term friend groups (most of her Baltimore friends have never been very friendly to me). I felt like I had given up all the things that were important to me to be there and then the pandemic hit.
I was thousands of miles away from my parents, who spent the pandemic extremely isolated. I felt far away from my friends. My new job was greatly impacted by the pandemic and became incredibly stressful and intense. I haven't owned a car for years and am not a confident driver, a few coworkers were beaten pretty badly during muggings, it felt very unsafe to bike and often felt unsafe to be a pedestrian, dealing with city services was a nightmare every single time. The vibe in Baltimore just felt mean and difficult. I already felt lonely and sort of down on the move to Baltimore in the months before the pandemic but after it hit I felt incredibly trapped and alone.
I felt so frustrated being in Baltimore and was desperate to move back to the PNW. We agreed that it was better for both of us on the whole out there and made plans to move. We've been back in the PNW for over a year but my wife really, really misses her family. I have been trying to get out of my pandemic depression funk, but I feel like this time around we have not been able to get back into the fun swing of things we had when we lived in the PNW before. So now we are back out here and clicking in with friends has been hard (people moved farther out and had kids). I realize grad school gave me a lot of structure and sense of meaning and community that I'm finding really hard to replace. I feel enormous guilt that she is so far from her family (her mom doesn't really fly, so not an option for her to come out here) and lifelong friends to be somewhere where we have no family and don't have those kind of "been friends since we were teenagers" friendships.
After our parents have both had major health scares I am really feeling like my priorities have shifted from wanting to go to fun activities and check out restaurants to focusing on deeper relationships with friends and family. For example, if we stay out here my wife won't really get to be regular part of life seeing her niece and nephew grow up. I am an only child and my divorced parents are both single with no other family besides me and I'm starting to realize that when my parents are gone I won't have any close family left.
I have offered that we can always move back, especially if my wife's mother needs help, but she had the attitude of we agreed to do spend our lives in the PNW so that's what we're going to do. I feel so much guilt and our relationship has felt strained since we moved back. She has been so sad and I know her family and her close friends are really sad that we moved. I already felt like an outsider and now I feel like this destructive force that has harmed all these super meaningful relationships without being able to offer an alternative sense of family or community. My wife works remotely so is able to visit Baltimore whenever she wants, but she has found these visits really tough emotionally. She's usually particularly sad when she gets home.
As much as I love it here and really hated it there, I am feeling torn up and emotional about the choice to move. I want so badly for both of us to be happy with where we live and I find myself thinking about all kinds of impractical potential solutions. I fantasize about renting or subletting a place in Baltimore for a month so at least once a year she could get some real time home in her own space. Baltimore is about half the housing cost of where we currently live, what if we bought a place there but spent summers in the PNW.
I'm hoping for some kind advice from folks who have found themselves in similar situations. Please do not be snarky or snide in the comments.
*Is* it unrealistic to maintain a residence in Baltimore too? As her parents get older, if you decide to stay in the PNW for most of your time, she may really benefit from having a place to call home when she’s out east helping them. I had an apartment out where my parents live when my dad was in his final months. I know not everyone can afford this and I’m not saying it’s required, but since you brought it up… if you can afford it I actually think it could be a huge kindness to your wife.
I’m really interested in the piece about how you feel about her friends, like they set out a chilly welcome for you. Do you suppose your feelings about that are pandemic-inflected also or do you think the dynamic there is real? Because that’s kind of a big deal, to me. Did your wife notice it too? How did she react? And how do your in-laws treat you? You deserve to feel at home, too. That’s not a crazy thing to want.
Living in your grad school city when you’re no longer a student is definitely different. I changed my career plans to stay in mine and it was hard for those early years watching the people I loved leave. Some of them came back, having their own sentimental memories about the town. I made other friends. Post grad school life is much slower socially, I find, and a year is not long at all.
I have offered that we can always move back, especially if my wife's mother needs help, but she had the attitude of we agreed to do spend our lives in the PNW so that's what we're going to do. I feel so much guilt and our relationship has felt strained since we moved back.
I get the sense from this bit that you think your wife’s “tough it out forever” stance is … misplaced? a put-on? something? And I agree that it probably is not a thing you should uncritically let lie forever. A year might not be enough to really tell, but if it’s been a couple more and she’s not getting happier — maybe a third solution is required. A walkable/bikeable town within a couple hours drive of Baltimore? The two residences suggested above? Are there other cities where you have loved ones already in place whose lives might make room for you? From what’s here I think you both have good hearts and love each other, and I think you should keep working to find something that feels okay to you both.
posted by eirias at 8:07 AM on May 24 [7 favorites]
I’m really interested in the piece about how you feel about her friends, like they set out a chilly welcome for you. Do you suppose your feelings about that are pandemic-inflected also or do you think the dynamic there is real? Because that’s kind of a big deal, to me. Did your wife notice it too? How did she react? And how do your in-laws treat you? You deserve to feel at home, too. That’s not a crazy thing to want.
Living in your grad school city when you’re no longer a student is definitely different. I changed my career plans to stay in mine and it was hard for those early years watching the people I loved leave. Some of them came back, having their own sentimental memories about the town. I made other friends. Post grad school life is much slower socially, I find, and a year is not long at all.
I have offered that we can always move back, especially if my wife's mother needs help, but she had the attitude of we agreed to do spend our lives in the PNW so that's what we're going to do. I feel so much guilt and our relationship has felt strained since we moved back.
I get the sense from this bit that you think your wife’s “tough it out forever” stance is … misplaced? a put-on? something? And I agree that it probably is not a thing you should uncritically let lie forever. A year might not be enough to really tell, but if it’s been a couple more and she’s not getting happier — maybe a third solution is required. A walkable/bikeable town within a couple hours drive of Baltimore? The two residences suggested above? Are there other cities where you have loved ones already in place whose lives might make room for you? From what’s here I think you both have good hearts and love each other, and I think you should keep working to find something that feels okay to you both.
posted by eirias at 8:07 AM on May 24 [7 favorites]
Also 100% empathy. Between grad school and post-grad school jobs, my partner and I find ourselves in a place we don't really like, without deep friendships. Currently trying to figure out where to move, when neither of us has a clear career....
Anyway, does your wife's job allow her work remotely? It sorta sounds like it, given you're contemplating living in two places. What about your job? Baltimore housing is quite cheap (I grew up there, parents still live there), and I imagine even if you didn't buy something you could maybe easily rent a place for a few months a year without much cost. Or if she is a remote worker, she could do Trusted House Sitters and prioritize long stints in Baltimore.
But otherwise, I guess I'd ask yourselves:
-It sounds like the main problem with the PNW is that your friend group scattered - what can you do to address this? Move closer to at least one friend? Start regularly attending a hobby group/volunteering/etc.? Making friends as an adult is harder, but not impossible.
-Are there other cities on the East Coast that you might like more that are close to Baltimore? I hear you on the job market in Baltimore not being great (also terrible public transportation), but what about Richmond, or D.C. or Philly or NYC? Do you have friends in any of these cities? These are all reasonable driving distances, and can provide very different living experiences.
-Can you prioritize having a bit more fun in the PNW? Even if it's just the two of you, make a point of treating yourself to trying a new restaurant, going on weekend trips, etc.
posted by coffeecat at 8:28 AM on May 24 [3 favorites]
Anyway, does your wife's job allow her work remotely? It sorta sounds like it, given you're contemplating living in two places. What about your job? Baltimore housing is quite cheap (I grew up there, parents still live there), and I imagine even if you didn't buy something you could maybe easily rent a place for a few months a year without much cost. Or if she is a remote worker, she could do Trusted House Sitters and prioritize long stints in Baltimore.
But otherwise, I guess I'd ask yourselves:
-It sounds like the main problem with the PNW is that your friend group scattered - what can you do to address this? Move closer to at least one friend? Start regularly attending a hobby group/volunteering/etc.? Making friends as an adult is harder, but not impossible.
-Are there other cities on the East Coast that you might like more that are close to Baltimore? I hear you on the job market in Baltimore not being great (also terrible public transportation), but what about Richmond, or D.C. or Philly or NYC? Do you have friends in any of these cities? These are all reasonable driving distances, and can provide very different living experiences.
-Can you prioritize having a bit more fun in the PNW? Even if it's just the two of you, make a point of treating yourself to trying a new restaurant, going on weekend trips, etc.
posted by coffeecat at 8:28 AM on May 24 [3 favorites]
This is so so hard, and you are struggling with this not because either of you have done anything wrong but just because it is so damned hard and you both care a lot.
I think y'all really have to have a series of very honest talks about this, and by honest I mostly mean don't say what you think the other wants to hear. Be selfish in a good way, when you talk about this. You clearly both care deeply what the other wants, but put aside well-meaning pre-compromise for a second and put all your good and bad feelings on the table so you know what you're working with. Go ahead and talk about allllll the pros and cons, even the silly and weird ones - this doesn't have to be an unhappy set of conversations, think of them as whiteboarding sessions, just flinging it all out there and you'll edit later.
I find myself thinking about all kinds of impractical potential solutions. I fantasize about
Yeah, do this! With her, though - the two of you throw your wildest ideas up there, not just you. See what turns out to be stickiest.
Because that IS my answer to this question: we didn't have the same problems but where we were wasn't sustainable and we didn't know where we wanted to go, so we took the weird option. We're in our 11th city in 20 months. We're remaining undecided until after the election, at the very least.
Obviously there's no perfect compromise for you, unless your parents want to move. (Do your parents want to move?) It sounds like your career options don't run especially remote - is there a shift you can make to improve your options?
Why don't y'all spend this summer dreaming wildly? Declare it Daydream Summer and really spend some time throwing stuff up on the wall (make an actual wall for this, even?). ALSO spend some time going out and reconnecting with whatever things make PNW feel like home. Maybe toward the middle or end of summer your wife goes back for a solid visit AND the goal of shifting her internal narrative so she's not suffering so much when she leaves, maybe try on the mindset that coming and going is normal and not just okay but Good Actually, that both of these places are enrichments to her life. Your mindset task is to come to terms with the idea of driving if necessary to make the other things fall in place, and to think about what you might do careerwise to create more flexibility, whether that's to be fully bicoastal or at least spend 1-2 good chunks near her family per year.
posted by Lyn Never at 8:36 AM on May 24 [9 favorites]
I think y'all really have to have a series of very honest talks about this, and by honest I mostly mean don't say what you think the other wants to hear. Be selfish in a good way, when you talk about this. You clearly both care deeply what the other wants, but put aside well-meaning pre-compromise for a second and put all your good and bad feelings on the table so you know what you're working with. Go ahead and talk about allllll the pros and cons, even the silly and weird ones - this doesn't have to be an unhappy set of conversations, think of them as whiteboarding sessions, just flinging it all out there and you'll edit later.
I find myself thinking about all kinds of impractical potential solutions. I fantasize about
Yeah, do this! With her, though - the two of you throw your wildest ideas up there, not just you. See what turns out to be stickiest.
Because that IS my answer to this question: we didn't have the same problems but where we were wasn't sustainable and we didn't know where we wanted to go, so we took the weird option. We're in our 11th city in 20 months. We're remaining undecided until after the election, at the very least.
Obviously there's no perfect compromise for you, unless your parents want to move. (Do your parents want to move?) It sounds like your career options don't run especially remote - is there a shift you can make to improve your options?
Why don't y'all spend this summer dreaming wildly? Declare it Daydream Summer and really spend some time throwing stuff up on the wall (make an actual wall for this, even?). ALSO spend some time going out and reconnecting with whatever things make PNW feel like home. Maybe toward the middle or end of summer your wife goes back for a solid visit AND the goal of shifting her internal narrative so she's not suffering so much when she leaves, maybe try on the mindset that coming and going is normal and not just okay but Good Actually, that both of these places are enrichments to her life. Your mindset task is to come to terms with the idea of driving if necessary to make the other things fall in place, and to think about what you might do careerwise to create more flexibility, whether that's to be fully bicoastal or at least spend 1-2 good chunks near her family per year.
posted by Lyn Never at 8:36 AM on May 24 [9 favorites]
Oh, I meant to include this recommendation: the youtube channel World According to Briggs does a bunch of interesting little slice-and-dice comparisons of places in the US, like "the 10 best places to retire in the Midwest on $1700/mo or less" or "the 12 best college towns in the Eastern US" (I really like all the college town episodes, they are extremely my jam). He includes cost of living, average housing and crime stats, and sometimes also includes internet speeds and pricing which is a nice point to know when thinking about remote work. If your actual inclination is to move closer but not TO Baltimore, these might provide some reassurance that not everything looks and feels a very specific way that you might assume.
posted by Lyn Never at 8:41 AM on May 24 [6 favorites]
posted by Lyn Never at 8:41 AM on May 24 [6 favorites]
Sorry to any Baltimore people reading this, but Baltimore really specifically sucks.
I have beef with the majority of the whole east coast metropolitan corridor, and moved across the entire country to get away from it, pretty much blindly, to land in Seattle and three months into the move I realized for the first time since I was seven years old that I felt like I had an actual home. So I really understand what you mean in terms of feeling like one place fits you and another doesn’t, and specifically what those places are.
But also, Baltimore is not the only place you could live within easy distance of your spouse’s family. The east coast is cramped as hell. I personally am never moving back, but you sound more willing to explore your options. There’s commuter trains up and down the east coast, swathes of rural land including some pretty great forests and (smaller, but also much older) mountains, a huge range of weather and tons of different types of communities. Depending on how far your spouse considers too far for an easy trip to check in with her relatives, you could live as far north as Boston or as far south as Atlanta, maybe further. It doesn’t have to be you suffering in the city and your spouse living next door to her parents.
posted by Mizu at 8:56 AM on May 24 [24 favorites]
I have beef with the majority of the whole east coast metropolitan corridor, and moved across the entire country to get away from it, pretty much blindly, to land in Seattle and three months into the move I realized for the first time since I was seven years old that I felt like I had an actual home. So I really understand what you mean in terms of feeling like one place fits you and another doesn’t, and specifically what those places are.
But also, Baltimore is not the only place you could live within easy distance of your spouse’s family. The east coast is cramped as hell. I personally am never moving back, but you sound more willing to explore your options. There’s commuter trains up and down the east coast, swathes of rural land including some pretty great forests and (smaller, but also much older) mountains, a huge range of weather and tons of different types of communities. Depending on how far your spouse considers too far for an easy trip to check in with her relatives, you could live as far north as Boston or as far south as Atlanta, maybe further. It doesn’t have to be you suffering in the city and your spouse living next door to her parents.
posted by Mizu at 8:56 AM on May 24 [24 favorites]
Why not consider some compromise solutions where you're not living right in Baltimore, but you're a lot closer than the PNW? Some more rural area in Maryland, Pennsylvania or West Virginia? Some other city that's a few hours to a day away, like Columbus, or Raleigh or Albany?
posted by Redstart at 8:59 AM on May 24 [5 favorites]
posted by Redstart at 8:59 AM on May 24 [5 favorites]
You may enjoy “This is Where You Belong” by Melanie Warnick. It’s about creating a sense of place and community, even when things aren’t a perfect fit. As someone who has moved a few times looking for the next place to solve my problems, it definitely stuck with me.
posted by raccoon409 at 9:15 AM on May 24 [8 favorites]
posted by raccoon409 at 9:15 AM on May 24 [8 favorites]
Cheaper than owning a house in Baltimore would be for your spouse to fly back once or twice a month. It's not the same as living there but it would give her time with her parents and friends.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 9:20 AM on May 24
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 9:20 AM on May 24
I don't know if any of this will help - but it feels like your story rhymes with the one my wife and I are writing.
We moved back from Seattle to N.Carolina during the pandemic to be closer to my family. We are childless and were particularly interested in helping support my brother's childcare needs as he navigated a messy divorce. (We didn't ask before moving but figured that his needs would present an opportunity without making a fuss.) Fast forward almost three years - after a falling out over differences in COVID protocols, it is very hard to have any kind of connection with my brother, lesser so my parents. But the parents are often asked to keep the kids, so they're rarely available to just hang out. They're sympathetic, but not enough to carve out space for us.
I knew it was a coin toss as to whether we would get along with my family in closer proximity, and picked out a city that split the distance between family members, so we weren't overcommitting ourselves to using them as a social crutch. I kept us out of the thick of heavy capitalist hubs like Raleigh or Charlotte that seemed to be having similar housing crises and focused on areas with diverse populations. I doubled down on getting involved in local cycling/pedestrian activism as a way to make friends. My wife did a little of the same, but didn't have as clear a community goal. She really liked my family and I think thought there would be many opportunities to get to know them better. She's been very unhappy.
Some bright lights -
I have extended family in the same area who are less locked into a historical dynamic (an aunt dealing with late-in-life partner medical issues, a cousin and partner who's more artistic and into some of our holistic health interests), and we've re-focused our free time on connecting with them. I think it's helping model to my parents how we want to interact, and my wife really enjoys it.
I've spent the time using the wandrer.earth site to try to find my way around the region and develop a better sense of the neighborhoods and community rhythms. I also started back up with Duolingo Spanish - there's a large Hispanic population throughout NC, and it's the second time one of our next door neighbors is an immigrant. I want less missed opportunities around getting to know people with different backgrounds - makes me feel less like an isolated American.
We've both spent a lot of time doing small home projects, not even renovations, just things to help our space feel more intimate and creative.
And we hosted for an extended period a friend who was also in exile from Seattle, trying to find a way to live in Europe. Watching his process has opened us up to being less focused on this town having to be our forever home.
We miss Seattle a lot - we both spent several decades there, the land is incredibly beautiful, it's less conservative than the east coast - but it was clear before we moved that the people, especially those moving in were less aligned to our values than the ones we knew when we first arrived (most of whom had also moved away). I'm not sure which is worse - bible-belt moral conservatism or urban tech corporate conservatism. As someone middle-aged, I feel more and more like finding community is a lot like dating in your youth - put yourself in interesting situations and try to do interesting things and you will find genuine people who like you too. Good luck!
posted by SoundInhabitant at 9:28 AM on May 24 [2 favorites]
We moved back from Seattle to N.Carolina during the pandemic to be closer to my family. We are childless and were particularly interested in helping support my brother's childcare needs as he navigated a messy divorce. (We didn't ask before moving but figured that his needs would present an opportunity without making a fuss.) Fast forward almost three years - after a falling out over differences in COVID protocols, it is very hard to have any kind of connection with my brother, lesser so my parents. But the parents are often asked to keep the kids, so they're rarely available to just hang out. They're sympathetic, but not enough to carve out space for us.
I knew it was a coin toss as to whether we would get along with my family in closer proximity, and picked out a city that split the distance between family members, so we weren't overcommitting ourselves to using them as a social crutch. I kept us out of the thick of heavy capitalist hubs like Raleigh or Charlotte that seemed to be having similar housing crises and focused on areas with diverse populations. I doubled down on getting involved in local cycling/pedestrian activism as a way to make friends. My wife did a little of the same, but didn't have as clear a community goal. She really liked my family and I think thought there would be many opportunities to get to know them better. She's been very unhappy.
Some bright lights -
I have extended family in the same area who are less locked into a historical dynamic (an aunt dealing with late-in-life partner medical issues, a cousin and partner who's more artistic and into some of our holistic health interests), and we've re-focused our free time on connecting with them. I think it's helping model to my parents how we want to interact, and my wife really enjoys it.
I've spent the time using the wandrer.earth site to try to find my way around the region and develop a better sense of the neighborhoods and community rhythms. I also started back up with Duolingo Spanish - there's a large Hispanic population throughout NC, and it's the second time one of our next door neighbors is an immigrant. I want less missed opportunities around getting to know people with different backgrounds - makes me feel less like an isolated American.
We've both spent a lot of time doing small home projects, not even renovations, just things to help our space feel more intimate and creative.
And we hosted for an extended period a friend who was also in exile from Seattle, trying to find a way to live in Europe. Watching his process has opened us up to being less focused on this town having to be our forever home.
We miss Seattle a lot - we both spent several decades there, the land is incredibly beautiful, it's less conservative than the east coast - but it was clear before we moved that the people, especially those moving in were less aligned to our values than the ones we knew when we first arrived (most of whom had also moved away). I'm not sure which is worse - bible-belt moral conservatism or urban tech corporate conservatism. As someone middle-aged, I feel more and more like finding community is a lot like dating in your youth - put yourself in interesting situations and try to do interesting things and you will find genuine people who like you too. Good luck!
posted by SoundInhabitant at 9:28 AM on May 24 [2 favorites]
You sound like you're still pretty depressed. Address that first; it sounds to me like that's a huge factor. Your wife may simply be able to be pretty happy in different places. She gets to make choices and living where you're more able to be happy is not a bad choice. Baltimore is a city with deeply entrenched customs, and it would be hard to move there at any time particularly during Covid. PNW may have many more transplants, and be more amenable. Be gracious about her flexibility.
Colorado is much closer for travel to Baltimore, and might be a compromise location, or someplace else on the East Coast. I think you're very focused on how your location is affecting you; try to develop friendships and fun habits where you are.
posted by theora55 at 10:16 AM on May 24 [4 favorites]
Colorado is much closer for travel to Baltimore, and might be a compromise location, or someplace else on the East Coast. I think you're very focused on how your location is affecting you; try to develop friendships and fun habits where you are.
posted by theora55 at 10:16 AM on May 24 [4 favorites]
Please memail me if you want my rambling thoughts on the lusher, less urban, pointy, tree-covered bits of the east coast, by the way. We spent Aug 23-Feb 24 in upstate NY, Vermont/NH, and Western Mass. We have figured out in this journey that we are Mountain People, and despite my early assertions that I loathe snow and if I have to pick up a shovel I'm not stopping until I get to Hell, it turns out I just hated spending Christmas 22 in PORTLAND'S bullshit. We're going to go back this fall so Portland can apologize to me. But we've determined OR is too expensive for as climatically fragile as it is, so it's out as a permanent option.
posted by Lyn Never at 11:09 AM on May 24 [5 favorites]
posted by Lyn Never at 11:09 AM on May 24 [5 favorites]
I am also from the east coast and now in the PNW. The humidity there you just can't get around. It sucks, especially once you've been out here. A handful of years ago, I was offered a job in the mid-Atlantic and made a long list of pros and cons, and I put everything, and I mean everything, on the list, and then went back and weighted them. My cons for the move included things you'd expect but also humidity, sharks, hurricanes, and my cons for the PNW included ocean too cold for swimming and earthquakes. Sharks got a low ranking in the move consideration, but it was super helpful to use these lists (I did pros and cons for each city) and weigh the items as a way to get everything out of my head and start to process it all.
It was also helpful to hear that, sometimes if you're really grappling with a decision, it's because no decision is so clearly better than the other. Which is to say, cut yourself some slack that this is tough.
Finally, I also want to suggest a reframing. I think some of what you are blaming on Baltimore is really pandemic suckiness and malaise, maybe mixed in with post-grad school/adulting letdown. You moved to Baltimore just before the pandemic, so you didn't have much community established. You were there in a super difficult time. You could have been anywhere and it would have been rough.
And here's the real trick: I am not saying that everything wrong with Baltimore was the pandemic, but, for the sake of a fresh start, what if you decide that your stress and sadness was about the pandemic, and then you can try to have a new approach to Baltimore? Would that work?
It sounds like you were and are feeling lonely in both places, in Baltimore because you didn't feel welcomed by your wife's old friends, and now back in the PNW because your friends moved further out. I think a lot of us are feeling some loneliness right now, and I don't think this is about place. It takes more time and work to cultivate friends as adults when we are in school.
Some of the things you don't like about Baltimore are a bit in conflict (you miss nature but also don't want to have to drive so much), but could you try to find some walkable/bikeable/transit-rich area in the DC metro more broadly that will let you live mostly without a car? Could you cultivate an interest in something like sea kayaking or sailing, something outdoors that's maybe a better fit for Maryland (depending on where you've been in the PNW, I mean)?
I do think you might be dealing with depression, and you'll take it with you wherever you go, because we take our problems with us, oftentimes. While you are framing this as a situation where you can figure out the right place and then you'll be happy, I think maybe you need to get into therapy and work through some of your loneliness and depression.
A few other things: any chance your parents would follow you east if you moved back? Any chance you want to cultivate relationships with your niece and nephew too? What, if anything, was good there?
posted by bluedaisy at 11:39 AM on May 24 [9 favorites]
It was also helpful to hear that, sometimes if you're really grappling with a decision, it's because no decision is so clearly better than the other. Which is to say, cut yourself some slack that this is tough.
Finally, I also want to suggest a reframing. I think some of what you are blaming on Baltimore is really pandemic suckiness and malaise, maybe mixed in with post-grad school/adulting letdown. You moved to Baltimore just before the pandemic, so you didn't have much community established. You were there in a super difficult time. You could have been anywhere and it would have been rough.
And here's the real trick: I am not saying that everything wrong with Baltimore was the pandemic, but, for the sake of a fresh start, what if you decide that your stress and sadness was about the pandemic, and then you can try to have a new approach to Baltimore? Would that work?
It sounds like you were and are feeling lonely in both places, in Baltimore because you didn't feel welcomed by your wife's old friends, and now back in the PNW because your friends moved further out. I think a lot of us are feeling some loneliness right now, and I don't think this is about place. It takes more time and work to cultivate friends as adults when we are in school.
Some of the things you don't like about Baltimore are a bit in conflict (you miss nature but also don't want to have to drive so much), but could you try to find some walkable/bikeable/transit-rich area in the DC metro more broadly that will let you live mostly without a car? Could you cultivate an interest in something like sea kayaking or sailing, something outdoors that's maybe a better fit for Maryland (depending on where you've been in the PNW, I mean)?
I do think you might be dealing with depression, and you'll take it with you wherever you go, because we take our problems with us, oftentimes. While you are framing this as a situation where you can figure out the right place and then you'll be happy, I think maybe you need to get into therapy and work through some of your loneliness and depression.
A few other things: any chance your parents would follow you east if you moved back? Any chance you want to cultivate relationships with your niece and nephew too? What, if anything, was good there?
posted by bluedaisy at 11:39 AM on May 24 [9 favorites]
"I have offered that we can always move back, especially if my wife's mother needs help, but she had the attitude of we agreed to do spend our lives in the PNW so that's what we're going to do."
This strikes me as rather odd. It almost sounds like she's given up, like she already made a huge sacrifice and you're still not happy, and she doesn't want to express a preference in moving back out in case you hate it again. Given your unexpectedly strong dislike of her hometown, how could she predict your reaction to any town?
I think your instincts are good that she misses her family. Start looking for jobs on the East Coast and scope out the towns. Once you have more details, make concrete proposals.
posted by dum spiro spero at 5:22 PM on May 24 [2 favorites]
This strikes me as rather odd. It almost sounds like she's given up, like she already made a huge sacrifice and you're still not happy, and she doesn't want to express a preference in moving back out in case you hate it again. Given your unexpectedly strong dislike of her hometown, how could she predict your reaction to any town?
I think your instincts are good that she misses her family. Start looking for jobs on the East Coast and scope out the towns. Once you have more details, make concrete proposals.
posted by dum spiro spero at 5:22 PM on May 24 [2 favorites]
I'd also recommend thinking about places that are in closer proximity to Baltimore but not Baltimore proper, assuming you can meet the conditions you need to earn a living and your feelings about being further away from your parents (you didn't state it explicitly, but it sounds like it might be easier for you to visit your parents/have your parents visit you and maintain your relationship at a distance compared to your partner).
I have friends and a partner who have lived in Baltimore and, like Mizu, my strong impression is that while the city certainly has its charms (heh) it can be tough to live there, especially as a non-native. And "within a few hours of Baltimore" is an absolutely huge and varied swath of the eastern seaboard, including all of Delaware and New Jersey, plus big parts of Virginia, West Virginia, Pennsylvania, and southern New York (including NYC). I mean, even Pittsburgh is only four hours by car.
posted by pullayup at 8:37 PM on May 25
I have friends and a partner who have lived in Baltimore and, like Mizu, my strong impression is that while the city certainly has its charms (heh) it can be tough to live there, especially as a non-native. And "within a few hours of Baltimore" is an absolutely huge and varied swath of the eastern seaboard, including all of Delaware and New Jersey, plus big parts of Virginia, West Virginia, Pennsylvania, and southern New York (including NYC). I mean, even Pittsburgh is only four hours by car.
posted by pullayup at 8:37 PM on May 25
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posted by Iteki at 7:47 AM on May 24 [2 favorites]