Reflecting on friend's new boundary
May 23, 2024 6:45 AM Subscribe
I could use some help and perspective in thinking about a conversational boundary a friend of mine has set. It seems reasonable, but it's a big shift in our friendship and emotional connection, and I am having some feelings about it all and trying to figure out if it's worth a conversation or something I need to instead process on my own and with my therapist.
My friend Laura and I both, both 40-something-is cis women, have grown from acquaintances to friends over the past three years. We met through a shared activity and then bonded further in conversations about dating and relationships. She is smart and funny, a true delight. We interact via text, social media, and sometimes phone calls multiple times a week and usually see each other at least once a week, sometimes more, depending on our shared activity.
Over the past few years, I supported her through a few break ups, and she did the same for me. I had a pretty emotionally wrenching break up a few months ago, and I leaned on her heavily. She listened to my tales of woe and said to call her or text her instead of my ex, that kind of thing. I briefly dated someone last month, and talked to her about that as well. I am in therapy, and have other folks to talk to, but she was probably my primary listening and supporting friend.
She's been dealing with some depression this past winter and spring (she's in therapy and doing all the things). Her break up last year hit her really hard, and she's gotten pretty negative about men and dating generally. She said she was feeling a bit overwhelmed with relationship talk in a few different contexts, among another group of women friends she spends time with, and then with some individual friends. A month or so ago, she said she didn't want to talk about relationships any more. My understanding is that she was asking for this to some extent in other friendships too.
Laura has people pleasing tendencies, and we have talked about practicing secure attachment behaviors in our friendship and also about setting good boundaries, but I think all my relationship processing with her might have been overwhelming her for a while before she set this boundary. She asked to take breaks from these topics a few times. In retrospect, I wish I had been a bit more aware and understanding of what she was communicating more subtly.
I respect her request and the boundary, but it's also a really big change in our dynamic. I am a verbal processor and extroverted and have ADHD, and I can really meander in conversation, so it's taken some real effort on my part not to bring up this kind of stuff when we chat, and it's harder to relax around her (though maybe I was too relaxed before?). She's also sort of half-flinched when I mentioned things that were associated with my ex, even when I didn't mention my ex, so I am trying to be mindful of that as well. If we are discussing our week, I might bring up lots of things but talk around (for example) the text I got from my ex, or a new date I set up.
A couple of weeks ago, while participating in our shared activity and chatting, she mentioned that another friend of ours, Amanda, had called her and talked about some problems in Amanda's situationship. Laura also told me about a new crush she's developed lately. I engaged actively and happily with her on both topics, but it felt terrible that this was one sided. I felt jealous that Amanda was able (allowed?) to have that conversation with Laura. And I was a bit resentful that Laura talked about her mini crush but I still wasn't allowed to talk about some of my dating stuff.
I have another friend, Rhonda, who stopped dating a few years ago and also drew the same boundary. She felt like there was too much relationship talk among all her friends, especially because she was actively supporting another friend who was leaving an abusive relationship. In fact, when I became closer with Laura and Amanda, Rhonda commented how happy she was for me to have friends to talk to about dating and such. So now I am trying to figure out if this is me -- am I completely exhausting my friends with too much relationship processing? -- and also how to move forward in my friendship with Laura.
I haven't told Laura that this boundary, though reasonable, has been a struggle for me. It's also a huge shift in the content of our conversations. She's in a tender place, and I don't want to hurt her feelings or pressure her in any way into uncomfortable conversations. But I feel a lot less authentic with her, I feel judged for my dating and relationship, and I am bit mad that she's not realizing that talking about her crush with me isn't exactly fair given the boundary she established.
Any tips on moving forward? Should I tell her that I respect this boundary but am also struggling with it? Should I ask her not to discuss her crush with me if I can't tell her about mine? The idea of that feels cruddy, but I also feel pretty inauthentic now, and I could feel myself withdrawing a bit from the friendship when she first set the boundary. I love my friend, and I am glad she's working on establishing boundaries in relationships, but I am also grieving this change. Is that just how this goes?
My friend Laura and I both, both 40-something-is cis women, have grown from acquaintances to friends over the past three years. We met through a shared activity and then bonded further in conversations about dating and relationships. She is smart and funny, a true delight. We interact via text, social media, and sometimes phone calls multiple times a week and usually see each other at least once a week, sometimes more, depending on our shared activity.
Over the past few years, I supported her through a few break ups, and she did the same for me. I had a pretty emotionally wrenching break up a few months ago, and I leaned on her heavily. She listened to my tales of woe and said to call her or text her instead of my ex, that kind of thing. I briefly dated someone last month, and talked to her about that as well. I am in therapy, and have other folks to talk to, but she was probably my primary listening and supporting friend.
She's been dealing with some depression this past winter and spring (she's in therapy and doing all the things). Her break up last year hit her really hard, and she's gotten pretty negative about men and dating generally. She said she was feeling a bit overwhelmed with relationship talk in a few different contexts, among another group of women friends she spends time with, and then with some individual friends. A month or so ago, she said she didn't want to talk about relationships any more. My understanding is that she was asking for this to some extent in other friendships too.
Laura has people pleasing tendencies, and we have talked about practicing secure attachment behaviors in our friendship and also about setting good boundaries, but I think all my relationship processing with her might have been overwhelming her for a while before she set this boundary. She asked to take breaks from these topics a few times. In retrospect, I wish I had been a bit more aware and understanding of what she was communicating more subtly.
I respect her request and the boundary, but it's also a really big change in our dynamic. I am a verbal processor and extroverted and have ADHD, and I can really meander in conversation, so it's taken some real effort on my part not to bring up this kind of stuff when we chat, and it's harder to relax around her (though maybe I was too relaxed before?). She's also sort of half-flinched when I mentioned things that were associated with my ex, even when I didn't mention my ex, so I am trying to be mindful of that as well. If we are discussing our week, I might bring up lots of things but talk around (for example) the text I got from my ex, or a new date I set up.
A couple of weeks ago, while participating in our shared activity and chatting, she mentioned that another friend of ours, Amanda, had called her and talked about some problems in Amanda's situationship. Laura also told me about a new crush she's developed lately. I engaged actively and happily with her on both topics, but it felt terrible that this was one sided. I felt jealous that Amanda was able (allowed?) to have that conversation with Laura. And I was a bit resentful that Laura talked about her mini crush but I still wasn't allowed to talk about some of my dating stuff.
I have another friend, Rhonda, who stopped dating a few years ago and also drew the same boundary. She felt like there was too much relationship talk among all her friends, especially because she was actively supporting another friend who was leaving an abusive relationship. In fact, when I became closer with Laura and Amanda, Rhonda commented how happy she was for me to have friends to talk to about dating and such. So now I am trying to figure out if this is me -- am I completely exhausting my friends with too much relationship processing? -- and also how to move forward in my friendship with Laura.
I haven't told Laura that this boundary, though reasonable, has been a struggle for me. It's also a huge shift in the content of our conversations. She's in a tender place, and I don't want to hurt her feelings or pressure her in any way into uncomfortable conversations. But I feel a lot less authentic with her, I feel judged for my dating and relationship, and I am bit mad that she's not realizing that talking about her crush with me isn't exactly fair given the boundary she established.
Any tips on moving forward? Should I tell her that I respect this boundary but am also struggling with it? Should I ask her not to discuss her crush with me if I can't tell her about mine? The idea of that feels cruddy, but I also feel pretty inauthentic now, and I could feel myself withdrawing a bit from the friendship when she first set the boundary. I love my friend, and I am glad she's working on establishing boundaries in relationships, but I am also grieving this change. Is that just how this goes?
It's better to have this conversation with her than feel resentful but (and I say this as a fellow ADHD verbal processor who probably frustrates my friends at time) before you do it might be worth considering what your boundaries actually are. Do you not want to hear about Laura's crush because you find it exhausting / hurtful / unfair or does it feel more like a retaliation?
I'm projecting a lot but I'm wondering if there is an element of RSD in your reaction - especially as she is having these conversations with other people.
I would talk to her about what her boundary actually is, with the understanding that it can be renegotiated if necessary. Is it that she doesn't want talking about relationships to be the primary topic of conversation between you or is that she wants there to be no mentions of anything tangentially related to relationships? Was the flinching because you mentioned something tangentially related because that was too much or because she was worried you were going to start talking about your ex? And what are your boundaries? Do you want to shut down relationship talk from both sides or are you OK hearing about her crushes and not reciprocating? Are you OK hearing about relationship conversations she's had with other friends or does that make you feel unhappy? Would it help to tell her you're trying to respect the boundary and give her permission to shut you down if you slip up?
I would assume the shift in your friendship is short term and maybe you need to find something to get through it. If you're struggling for things to talk about when relationships are off the table, maybe you could try doing something together like watching films or some kind of shared class or hobby.
posted by Laura_J at 7:16 AM on May 23 [4 favorites]
I'm projecting a lot but I'm wondering if there is an element of RSD in your reaction - especially as she is having these conversations with other people.
I would talk to her about what her boundary actually is, with the understanding that it can be renegotiated if necessary. Is it that she doesn't want talking about relationships to be the primary topic of conversation between you or is that she wants there to be no mentions of anything tangentially related to relationships? Was the flinching because you mentioned something tangentially related because that was too much or because she was worried you were going to start talking about your ex? And what are your boundaries? Do you want to shut down relationship talk from both sides or are you OK hearing about her crushes and not reciprocating? Are you OK hearing about relationship conversations she's had with other friends or does that make you feel unhappy? Would it help to tell her you're trying to respect the boundary and give her permission to shut you down if you slip up?
I would assume the shift in your friendship is short term and maybe you need to find something to get through it. If you're struggling for things to talk about when relationships are off the table, maybe you could try doing something together like watching films or some kind of shared class or hobby.
posted by Laura_J at 7:16 AM on May 23 [4 favorites]
It sounds like you need to have a chat to revisit the topic and maybe discuss whether the boundary is still in place. When she originally brought it up, did she definitively say "look, I don't want to talk about these things any more, please can we make an effort not to discuss them for the foreseeable future" or was it more of a throwaway "ugh, I don't want to talk about relationship stuff right now"?
It's possible that she's either changed her mind about it being a boundary for her friendships, or she never intended it as a boundary in the first place. Maybe now she's in a better place she's not so bothered about talking about these things. Or maybe she's just forgotten about it! We're all human, after all. You've clearly taken it very seriously, which is commendable, but it's possible that things have changed.
Talk to her! Don't let these feelings fester inside you and damage what sounds like a good and valuable friendship for you both.
posted by fight or flight at 7:34 AM on May 23
It's possible that she's either changed her mind about it being a boundary for her friendships, or she never intended it as a boundary in the first place. Maybe now she's in a better place she's not so bothered about talking about these things. Or maybe she's just forgotten about it! We're all human, after all. You've clearly taken it very seriously, which is commendable, but it's possible that things have changed.
Talk to her! Don't let these feelings fester inside you and damage what sounds like a good and valuable friendship for you both.
posted by fight or flight at 7:34 AM on May 23
>Should I tell her that I respect this boundary but am also struggling with it?
I think you can say something like "I totally respect that you don't want to talk about relationship stuff, but I might slip up sometimes and mention something as part of my day. I'll try to be mindful of that, but feel free to stop me and redirect me to something else." I.e. let her know where you're at, what she can do, but don't specifically let her know that you're struggling. That's a you thing.
With her talking about her crush, maybe you can say something like, "maybe we can keep all relationship and adjacent talk off the table. Crushes, flirting, dating strategies, people we're dating, other people's relationships, celebrity relationships [whatever else you can think of] and check back in in 2 months [or however long]?"
If you have the guts to do so, you could ask her "hey was my relationship talk annoying or emotionally draining?" And ask her for feedback on how you were doing your relationships. Like maybe you kept falling for emotionally unavailable people and she kept trying to tell you that and you weren't hearing it. But only do this if you feel like you can handle her responses.
If you're withdrawing a bit, that's totally reasonable. She set a boundary and people can react however they want to people's boundaries. It's possible you may not be as compatible as you first thought and that's fine. It sucks, but it happens.
It's totally fine to grieve too. Yes, I think this is how it goes. Change isn't easy so give yourself grace.
It's possible that this is not personal and that Rhonda and Laura are tired of relationship talk generally. As for Amanda talking to Laura about her situationship, it's possible that Laura can handle that from Amanda for whatever reason and that she'll draw a boundary with her too eventually. Who knows. Either way, you really have no idea, so don't use up brain space thinking about that. So it's probably a good idea to clarify that any relationship talk is off the table.
posted by foxjacket at 7:38 AM on May 23 [5 favorites]
I think you can say something like "I totally respect that you don't want to talk about relationship stuff, but I might slip up sometimes and mention something as part of my day. I'll try to be mindful of that, but feel free to stop me and redirect me to something else." I.e. let her know where you're at, what she can do, but don't specifically let her know that you're struggling. That's a you thing.
With her talking about her crush, maybe you can say something like, "maybe we can keep all relationship and adjacent talk off the table. Crushes, flirting, dating strategies, people we're dating, other people's relationships, celebrity relationships [whatever else you can think of] and check back in in 2 months [or however long]?"
If you have the guts to do so, you could ask her "hey was my relationship talk annoying or emotionally draining?" And ask her for feedback on how you were doing your relationships. Like maybe you kept falling for emotionally unavailable people and she kept trying to tell you that and you weren't hearing it. But only do this if you feel like you can handle her responses.
If you're withdrawing a bit, that's totally reasonable. She set a boundary and people can react however they want to people's boundaries. It's possible you may not be as compatible as you first thought and that's fine. It sucks, but it happens.
It's totally fine to grieve too. Yes, I think this is how it goes. Change isn't easy so give yourself grace.
It's possible that this is not personal and that Rhonda and Laura are tired of relationship talk generally. As for Amanda talking to Laura about her situationship, it's possible that Laura can handle that from Amanda for whatever reason and that she'll draw a boundary with her too eventually. Who knows. Either way, you really have no idea, so don't use up brain space thinking about that. So it's probably a good idea to clarify that any relationship talk is off the table.
posted by foxjacket at 7:38 AM on May 23 [5 favorites]
A couple of weeks ago, while participating in our shared activity and chatting, she mentioned that another friend of ours, Amanda, had called her and talked about some problems in Amanda's situationship. Laura also told me about a new crush she's developed lately.
I think it's reasonable the next time this happens to ask "Does this mean we're okay talking about relationship stuff again?" And then go from there. I think I wouldn't bring up being hurt about all this, but it's okay to mention that sometimes it's hard to edit out this part of your life altogether, and that it's hard for it to be one-sided, and maybe you could come up with some better guidelines together.
I don't know your relationship but it doesn't sound like you're being judged for your relationships, based on what you wrote. It sounds like it's just about where she's at emotionally.
posted by trig at 7:41 AM on May 23 [17 favorites]
I think it's reasonable the next time this happens to ask "Does this mean we're okay talking about relationship stuff again?" And then go from there. I think I wouldn't bring up being hurt about all this, but it's okay to mention that sometimes it's hard to edit out this part of your life altogether, and that it's hard for it to be one-sided, and maybe you could come up with some better guidelines together.
I don't know your relationship but it doesn't sound like you're being judged for your relationships, based on what you wrote. It sounds like it's just about where she's at emotionally.
posted by trig at 7:41 AM on May 23 [17 favorites]
I think the first thing is to realize that Laura is not a resource that others like Amanda (or you) get to use. She’s not a slot dispenser for processing. She’s a unique person in a unique relationship with you.
So it’s not “can Laura ever listen to relationship talk.” It’s “what makes for a healthy relationship between Laura and I.”
Through this lens, Laura told you something she needed from you, and you delivered. But now you’re finding it hard, or more nuanced than you thought, so now you go back to her and talk about it.
That’s all.
I think if you took this as something more obvious like “I go on about baseball only with my friends who care about baseball” and even thought about how even if ppl share your interests, sometimes for whatever reason they are not the person you want to talk to about it because maybe they have super strong opinions on one thing, you’d see that this fluid negotiating of what topics strengthen a friendship and which ones don’t is clearer.
The nice thing about friends is you can have many of them.
posted by warriorqueen at 7:45 AM on May 23 [41 favorites]
So it’s not “can Laura ever listen to relationship talk.” It’s “what makes for a healthy relationship between Laura and I.”
Through this lens, Laura told you something she needed from you, and you delivered. But now you’re finding it hard, or more nuanced than you thought, so now you go back to her and talk about it.
That’s all.
I think if you took this as something more obvious like “I go on about baseball only with my friends who care about baseball” and even thought about how even if ppl share your interests, sometimes for whatever reason they are not the person you want to talk to about it because maybe they have super strong opinions on one thing, you’d see that this fluid negotiating of what topics strengthen a friendship and which ones don’t is clearer.
The nice thing about friends is you can have many of them.
posted by warriorqueen at 7:45 AM on May 23 [41 favorites]
I could feel myself withdrawing a bit from the friendship when she first set the boundary
I think this is the very definition of a boundary - it means you take a step back and reconfigure the way you interact with the person. So if it that is how it feels, it means you're doing it right.
As women, we all face so much pressure to make relationships the center of our lives. They can become all-consuming if you let them, even when they're not healthy, uplifting, or life-giving. But there are so many important things to do in life that have nothing to do with our status as girlfriends, partners, wives, etc. Maybe your friend wants to focus on some of those self-actualization activities instead.
I can empathize with your friend not wanting to make all your discussions about relationships- it can be disempowering, especially when things are not going well. Friendship needs more than commiseration in order to thrive.
It seems like you are already very self aware and taking action to respect her boundary. Maybe by shifting the focus of your friendship to personal goals, fun activities, exploration, and adventure, you can adapt to the new boundary and make it a fun new chapter! It doesn't have to be a bad thing or mean that she doesn't value you as a friend. She is just shifting the focus.
posted by winterportage at 8:09 AM on May 23 [1 favorite]
I think this is the very definition of a boundary - it means you take a step back and reconfigure the way you interact with the person. So if it that is how it feels, it means you're doing it right.
As women, we all face so much pressure to make relationships the center of our lives. They can become all-consuming if you let them, even when they're not healthy, uplifting, or life-giving. But there are so many important things to do in life that have nothing to do with our status as girlfriends, partners, wives, etc. Maybe your friend wants to focus on some of those self-actualization activities instead.
I can empathize with your friend not wanting to make all your discussions about relationships- it can be disempowering, especially when things are not going well. Friendship needs more than commiseration in order to thrive.
It seems like you are already very self aware and taking action to respect her boundary. Maybe by shifting the focus of your friendship to personal goals, fun activities, exploration, and adventure, you can adapt to the new boundary and make it a fun new chapter! It doesn't have to be a bad thing or mean that she doesn't value you as a friend. She is just shifting the focus.
posted by winterportage at 8:09 AM on May 23 [1 favorite]
Speaking only for myself, I like talking about meta relationship stuff, I think it's fun and interesting. But I don't want to know anything at all about the sex life of anyone I am not myself actively having sex with. It's absolutely none of my business and I don't want to be involved beyond knowing that my friend feels safe with their partner/s.
Lots of folks think that talking about their sex life falls under "conversation about relationships," and while they're not wrong, it's wrong for me. If they wanted to chat about their sex life, or couldn't talk about their relationships without it, I would want to draw a boundary for us.
Is there a chance that it's not all talk about any relationship that your friend is avoiding, but instead a specific sub subject in those conversations that you dwell on in particular? I think it's fair to ask for clarification, especially if your friend continues to talk relationships and you're feeling stuck.
posted by phunniemee at 8:32 AM on May 23 [6 favorites]
Lots of folks think that talking about their sex life falls under "conversation about relationships," and while they're not wrong, it's wrong for me. If they wanted to chat about their sex life, or couldn't talk about their relationships without it, I would want to draw a boundary for us.
Is there a chance that it's not all talk about any relationship that your friend is avoiding, but instead a specific sub subject in those conversations that you dwell on in particular? I think it's fair to ask for clarification, especially if your friend continues to talk relationships and you're feeling stuck.
posted by phunniemee at 8:32 AM on May 23 [6 favorites]
A useful trick I learned in couples therapy that might apply here -- when someone you're close to says/does something that feels hurtful, instead of trying to pick it apart, or police it, take a step back and try to understand it. Yes, it will probably be useful and necessary at some point to talk with her about how this new policy of hers is impacting you -- but can you first get curious about her experience? And I mean truly curious about what it means for her, which means not asking questions as a way to make yourself feel better/worse, or to try to determine what she "really" thinks about your and your relationships or whatever. This person is your friend, and she's having a hard time. What's going on with her? Put your hurt aside for a moment -- not for forever -- and just listen.
That kind of generous, open-hearted, open-minded curiosity can do wonders when a relationship feels like it's getting hemmed in by feelings of pain and betrayal. Often what you hear is not the story you're telling yourself in your head. It can help you tell a different story, and understand your friend better in the meantime.
posted by attentionplease at 8:37 AM on May 23 [25 favorites]
That kind of generous, open-hearted, open-minded curiosity can do wonders when a relationship feels like it's getting hemmed in by feelings of pain and betrayal. Often what you hear is not the story you're telling yourself in your head. It can help you tell a different story, and understand your friend better in the meantime.
posted by attentionplease at 8:37 AM on May 23 [25 favorites]
Often what you hear is not the story you're telling yourself in your head.
This is a general principle with very wide applicability. In fact it's the fundamental rationale for the existence of the scientific method.
posted by flabdablet at 8:52 AM on May 23 [3 favorites]
This is a general principle with very wide applicability. In fact it's the fundamental rationale for the existence of the scientific method.
posted by flabdablet at 8:52 AM on May 23 [3 favorites]
First off, let me Nth the recommendation to get curious and ask questions so you can understand what's behind Laura's boundary. Go into that conversation with an iron resolve to stay curious and not get all up in your feelings about it, stay centered within yourself, and make it your goal to understand Laura's reasons.
You may get good answers, or you may not. Either is okay. It's good to try.
There are many reasons why Laura would have different boundaries with different friends. Maybe she finds your relationship problems personally triggering due to her own history, but Amanda's problems aren't triggering. Maybe she feels more drained by your style and energy of relationship complaints, but doesn't feel drained by Amanda's style and energy. Maybe she finds it more rewarding to interact with you on other topics and in other ways, and she finds it more rewarding to interact with Amanda in this way. All of these are completely fair from her perspective. Laura knows best what helps her thrive in each friendship, and she's actively managing her relationships to get what she needs from each.
From your perspective, you put a lot of significance in the act of being able to complain about your relationships to Laura. To you, that is one of the biggest measures of your friendship. So of course you feel rejected when she doesn't want to hear any more from you, but wants to hear more from Amanda. It makes you feel like she likes Amanda more than she likes you. It's pretty understandable for you to feel rejected.
I think you can deal with this feeling by
(a) reframing the meaning of this friendship for yourself, and
(b) accepting some objective truths - REALLY accepting it, as in, doing the emotional and psychological work of reaching a state of true acceptance (not just "yeah yeah I know that on an intellectual level" type of deal).
Possible reframing questions for this friendship to work on by yourself or with a therapist:
- what if this friendship works best not on Laura hearing your complaints but on some other level, such as your ability to make each other laugh, or your shared interest in hiking, or competing with each other at board games, or whatever it is that makes this relationship work for BOTH of you (not just one of you)?
- what if your friendship with Laura is different from Laura's friendship with Amanda, yet your friendship is just as worthy and just as close and just as good? Or maybe even better, whatever that means?
- what if your friendship with Laura is objectively lesser than Laura's friendship with Amanda, and yet your friendship is still mutually fulfilling? What if a second-best or third-best or nth-best friendship is still worth enjoying?
- what if you don't compare your friendship with Laura to anyone else's friendship to Laura at all? What if you never even counted to see whether yours is better or equally good or second-best or third-best or nth-best? What if that ranking wasn't even on your radar, and your friendship with Laura is just your friendship with Laura, period, worthy or unworthy based on this relationship alone?
- what if you put your "complaining about relationships" egg in some other basket - have that kind of friendship with some other friend - and let your relationship with Laura be whatever your relationship with Laura CAN be based on *mutual* needs (not just one person's)?
Objective truths that you can start working on genuinely accepting, knowing it will be a process to fully reach true acceptance:
- Laura doesn't owe it to you or any of her friends to treat all her friends in an identical way. She's not a teacher who must treat all kids in the class exactly the same and grade papers with the same fair standards. She can have very different standards and expectations for each of her friends based on how each friendship works best. She can treat each friend differently based on how each friendship works best.
- Laura may not like all her friends equally. She's not a mother who must love her children equally. She can like different friends different amounts. That is perfectly okay and normal.
posted by MiraK at 9:39 AM on May 23 [12 favorites]
You may get good answers, or you may not. Either is okay. It's good to try.
There are many reasons why Laura would have different boundaries with different friends. Maybe she finds your relationship problems personally triggering due to her own history, but Amanda's problems aren't triggering. Maybe she feels more drained by your style and energy of relationship complaints, but doesn't feel drained by Amanda's style and energy. Maybe she finds it more rewarding to interact with you on other topics and in other ways, and she finds it more rewarding to interact with Amanda in this way. All of these are completely fair from her perspective. Laura knows best what helps her thrive in each friendship, and she's actively managing her relationships to get what she needs from each.
From your perspective, you put a lot of significance in the act of being able to complain about your relationships to Laura. To you, that is one of the biggest measures of your friendship. So of course you feel rejected when she doesn't want to hear any more from you, but wants to hear more from Amanda. It makes you feel like she likes Amanda more than she likes you. It's pretty understandable for you to feel rejected.
I think you can deal with this feeling by
(a) reframing the meaning of this friendship for yourself, and
(b) accepting some objective truths - REALLY accepting it, as in, doing the emotional and psychological work of reaching a state of true acceptance (not just "yeah yeah I know that on an intellectual level" type of deal).
Possible reframing questions for this friendship to work on by yourself or with a therapist:
- what if this friendship works best not on Laura hearing your complaints but on some other level, such as your ability to make each other laugh, or your shared interest in hiking, or competing with each other at board games, or whatever it is that makes this relationship work for BOTH of you (not just one of you)?
- what if your friendship with Laura is different from Laura's friendship with Amanda, yet your friendship is just as worthy and just as close and just as good? Or maybe even better, whatever that means?
- what if your friendship with Laura is objectively lesser than Laura's friendship with Amanda, and yet your friendship is still mutually fulfilling? What if a second-best or third-best or nth-best friendship is still worth enjoying?
- what if you don't compare your friendship with Laura to anyone else's friendship to Laura at all? What if you never even counted to see whether yours is better or equally good or second-best or third-best or nth-best? What if that ranking wasn't even on your radar, and your friendship with Laura is just your friendship with Laura, period, worthy or unworthy based on this relationship alone?
- what if you put your "complaining about relationships" egg in some other basket - have that kind of friendship with some other friend - and let your relationship with Laura be whatever your relationship with Laura CAN be based on *mutual* needs (not just one person's)?
Objective truths that you can start working on genuinely accepting, knowing it will be a process to fully reach true acceptance:
- Laura doesn't owe it to you or any of her friends to treat all her friends in an identical way. She's not a teacher who must treat all kids in the class exactly the same and grade papers with the same fair standards. She can have very different standards and expectations for each of her friends based on how each friendship works best. She can treat each friend differently based on how each friendship works best.
- Laura may not like all her friends equally. She's not a mother who must love her children equally. She can like different friends different amounts. That is perfectly okay and normal.
posted by MiraK at 9:39 AM on May 23 [12 favorites]
Maybe she feels more drained by your style and energy of relationship complaints, but doesn't feel drained by Amanda's style and energy.
I’ve talked a little bit about this on Metafilter, but different people have different ways of relating to romance and relationships in their lives. For some, they are more central, such that everything in someone’s life relates to the romantic partner; for others, it is more ancillary, such that it’s a sprinkle on top of everything else.
I am one of those people for whom relationships are central. It is nearly impossible for me to talk about my life without talking about my primary romantic relationship. If someone didn’t want to hear about my primary romantic relationship, it would be practically impossible for me to have normal conversations with them.
This is generally fairly innocuous when I’m happy in my relationship- then it becomes things like “X made me dinner, it was nice” or “X and I went to Y event”. But when I’m miserable in my relationship, or when a deeply important romantic relationship has broken up with me, it becomes nearly intolerable for others, because my entire focus becomes centered on how unhappy I am and what he must be thinking or feeling or doing, and analyzing every aspect of his actions. This is incredibly hard on friends. Most people simply don’t have the time to spend two hours analyzing every nuance of a thirty minute conversation, even though my mind is still lingering on it. Really, the only people who can are those who have similar limerance effects and are similarly miserable, so we can trade analysis and examination and lingering.
If your friend isn’t dating, or dating isn’t as central to her relationships, then it seems reasonable she may not have space for that in her life. It doesn’t mean she likes you less, just that it’s difficult for such people to understand why you are dwelling on those issues.
posted by corb at 10:17 AM on May 23 [9 favorites]
I’ve talked a little bit about this on Metafilter, but different people have different ways of relating to romance and relationships in their lives. For some, they are more central, such that everything in someone’s life relates to the romantic partner; for others, it is more ancillary, such that it’s a sprinkle on top of everything else.
I am one of those people for whom relationships are central. It is nearly impossible for me to talk about my life without talking about my primary romantic relationship. If someone didn’t want to hear about my primary romantic relationship, it would be practically impossible for me to have normal conversations with them.
This is generally fairly innocuous when I’m happy in my relationship- then it becomes things like “X made me dinner, it was nice” or “X and I went to Y event”. But when I’m miserable in my relationship, or when a deeply important romantic relationship has broken up with me, it becomes nearly intolerable for others, because my entire focus becomes centered on how unhappy I am and what he must be thinking or feeling or doing, and analyzing every aspect of his actions. This is incredibly hard on friends. Most people simply don’t have the time to spend two hours analyzing every nuance of a thirty minute conversation, even though my mind is still lingering on it. Really, the only people who can are those who have similar limerance effects and are similarly miserable, so we can trade analysis and examination and lingering.
If your friend isn’t dating, or dating isn’t as central to her relationships, then it seems reasonable she may not have space for that in her life. It doesn’t mean she likes you less, just that it’s difficult for such people to understand why you are dwelling on those issues.
posted by corb at 10:17 AM on May 23 [9 favorites]
As someone whose years long very close friendship was pushed to the breaking point after hours long phone calls multiple times a week, as she lamented and wondered about an ex who was no longer interested, but she still held onto the possibility of renewal, I would suggest being grateful that your friend values you enough to ask you to respect a boundary so that your friendship can continue.
I genuinely still miss my friend five years later, but it is exhausting being someone's unpaid therapist, especially if the conversation fails to show signs of progress/acceptance as months and years go by (speaking to my own experience here).
posted by icaicaer at 11:22 AM on May 23 [7 favorites]
I genuinely still miss my friend five years later, but it is exhausting being someone's unpaid therapist, especially if the conversation fails to show signs of progress/acceptance as months and years go by (speaking to my own experience here).
posted by icaicaer at 11:22 AM on May 23 [7 favorites]
I like to think I'm empathetic and a good listener, and I also am very conflict avoidant. This creates a situation where lots of people like to, I have no other way to put it, glom on to me and vent to me about things in their lives. I'll listen, ask questions, nod, try to be helpful, etc, some days it feels like I'm just there to help process their trauma and it's a many to one relationship - I go a walk with buddy A and he dumps his work drama, then I go to the gym and buddy B drops his relationship drama, then I go out to dinner and buddy C drops his whatever-drama.
Since I avoid conflict at all costs, I just take it all in, whether I have the space to do so or not.
Some days, at the end of the day, I feel exhausted and angry, because I feel like a thing people use without ever thinking about how it makes me feel. It's not their fault - I should be able to set my own healthy boundaries, but I really struggle with it.
It can be hard. The times I have worked to set boundaries it has been incredibly difficult for me to do so (so kudos to your friend) and I've really only done it with the relationships that are really meaningful (so, hey!).
posted by kbanas at 1:00 PM on May 23 [8 favorites]
Since I avoid conflict at all costs, I just take it all in, whether I have the space to do so or not.
Some days, at the end of the day, I feel exhausted and angry, because I feel like a thing people use without ever thinking about how it makes me feel. It's not their fault - I should be able to set my own healthy boundaries, but I really struggle with it.
It can be hard. The times I have worked to set boundaries it has been incredibly difficult for me to do so (so kudos to your friend) and I've really only done it with the relationships that are really meaningful (so, hey!).
posted by kbanas at 1:00 PM on May 23 [8 favorites]
Sit with your feelings of jealousy, resentment, unfairness and so on, and discuss them with a therapist.
Don't talk to her about this - it's an extension of the topics she already told you she doesn't want to talk about, and puts her in the position of either gently talking around the reasons or telling you something potentially hurtful to you.
posted by lookoutbelow at 2:58 PM on May 23 [9 favorites]
Don't talk to her about this - it's an extension of the topics she already told you she doesn't want to talk about, and puts her in the position of either gently talking around the reasons or telling you something potentially hurtful to you.
posted by lookoutbelow at 2:58 PM on May 23 [9 favorites]
Hello, myself! I have been and will probably continue to be both a you and a Laura, and am sending you care and empathy.
From my own experience, please don’t process these feelings with your friend, and please don’t ask her for clarification, until you’ve done some processing with your therapist. Getting curious with *yourself* is also crucially important! What is similar between the situation with Laura and with Rhonda, and what’s different — about you, about them? What is important to you about discussing relationships with friends? *Do* you have a required level of relationship-talk to maintain a friendship, and if so, what does that look like?
Your feelings are real and valid, and you have the unique privilege of understanding them in a way no one else can! What assumptions, values, stories, biases, cultural or personal scripts, explicit and implicit, are behind these specific feelings? Are there times in your life when you remember feeling this same constellation of feelings, or seeing them in other people? For example, have you been or seen someone “judged for their dating and relationship” in the past, or judged other people in the way you feel judged now? How does this interaction speak to your sense of fairness?
it felt terrible that this was one sided
I felt jealous that Amanda was able (allowed?)
I was a bit resentful… I still wasn't allowed
I feel judged for my dating and relationship, and I am bit mad… talking about her crush with me isn't exactly fair
Doot doot doo here’s a written prescription rrrrrrrrrt please take yr own medicine sincerely, rrrrrrrrrt
posted by rrrrrrrrrt at 12:59 AM on May 24
From my own experience, please don’t process these feelings with your friend, and please don’t ask her for clarification, until you’ve done some processing with your therapist. Getting curious with *yourself* is also crucially important! What is similar between the situation with Laura and with Rhonda, and what’s different — about you, about them? What is important to you about discussing relationships with friends? *Do* you have a required level of relationship-talk to maintain a friendship, and if so, what does that look like?
Your feelings are real and valid, and you have the unique privilege of understanding them in a way no one else can! What assumptions, values, stories, biases, cultural or personal scripts, explicit and implicit, are behind these specific feelings? Are there times in your life when you remember feeling this same constellation of feelings, or seeing them in other people? For example, have you been or seen someone “judged for their dating and relationship” in the past, or judged other people in the way you feel judged now? How does this interaction speak to your sense of fairness?
it felt terrible that this was one sided
I felt jealous that Amanda was able (allowed?)
I was a bit resentful… I still wasn't allowed
I feel judged for my dating and relationship, and I am bit mad… talking about her crush with me isn't exactly fair
Doot doot doo here’s a written prescription rrrrrrrrrt please take yr own medicine sincerely, rrrrrrrrrt
posted by rrrrrrrrrt at 12:59 AM on May 24
I love my friend, and I am glad she's working on establishing boundaries in relationships, but I am also grieving this change. Is that just how this goes?
In a word, yes. It's okay to grieve a change in a relationship even when it comes from one or more parties doing what is good and healthy for them. And while things may evolve over time nothing good can come of trying to renegotiate this boundary at this point. I am speaking from my experience as someone who was formerly you.
It's appropriate and natural that you aren't feeling as close to her. There's no way your friend can say "please don't talk to me about [thing that is very important to you]" and have you NOT reflexively want to pull back from the friendship. Our narrative of very close friendship is that with a close friend, we can be fully ourselves. Your friend has said that you cannot; she has in fact distanced your relationship. It is a tiny rejection and it's understandable that it hurts.
With my former close friend we were never able to repair the original relationship; we remain chiefly people who send each other holiday cards and memes on the sosh meeds. Sometimes we fuck up, friend, and sometimes that fuck-up has permanent ramifications. It doesn't mean we're awful, unlovable monsters or anything. But sometimes we fuck up and we lose things. There's nothing to do but grieve and figure out the borders of the new situation.
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 11:40 AM on May 24 [1 favorite]
In a word, yes. It's okay to grieve a change in a relationship even when it comes from one or more parties doing what is good and healthy for them. And while things may evolve over time nothing good can come of trying to renegotiate this boundary at this point. I am speaking from my experience as someone who was formerly you.
It's appropriate and natural that you aren't feeling as close to her. There's no way your friend can say "please don't talk to me about [thing that is very important to you]" and have you NOT reflexively want to pull back from the friendship. Our narrative of very close friendship is that with a close friend, we can be fully ourselves. Your friend has said that you cannot; she has in fact distanced your relationship. It is a tiny rejection and it's understandable that it hurts.
With my former close friend we were never able to repair the original relationship; we remain chiefly people who send each other holiday cards and memes on the sosh meeds. Sometimes we fuck up, friend, and sometimes that fuck-up has permanent ramifications. It doesn't mean we're awful, unlovable monsters or anything. But sometimes we fuck up and we lose things. There's nothing to do but grieve and figure out the borders of the new situation.
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 11:40 AM on May 24 [1 favorite]
(I also totally understand about how weird it feels that specifically, YOU are not allowed to talk about relationships, but she can talk about them to you. Like you said, though, it's hard not to slip up on this stuff and the most generous route at this point may be to simply let it ride for a bit.)
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 11:47 AM on May 24
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 11:47 AM on May 24
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So now I am trying to figure out if this is me -- am I completely exhausting my friends with too much relationship processing?
Regardless of anything else, you've answered this question for yourself already. Not everyone will want to listen to an extroverted verbal processor as much as you might like to talk. That's not intended to be critical, just an observation. When 2 friends effectively draw the same conversational boundary with you, it's a sign you need to do some self-reflection about the talking/listening ratio in your friendships.
But clearly you're a decent person because they both still want to be friends with you, they just want you to stop talking about your relationships. Hopefully your therapist can help you find a more productive way of processing your relationship talk.
posted by underclocked at 7:16 AM on May 23 [34 favorites]