Is my boyfriend helping his ex-wife too much?
January 28, 2024 12:48 PM Subscribe
Am I reasonable to ask my boyfriend to set some clear boundaries with his ex wife?
I have been with my divorced boyfriend for almost two years. He has two young girls, 12 and 8. I don't have kids. We are about the same age. He had been with his ex for almost 18 years prior to their divorce. The divorce was amicable and they still have close contact because of the kids. We do not live together as we both have our own houses. I am a little over an hour drive away from him; his ex-wife lives very close to him. I go to his house on the weekends when he doesn't have the kids and he comes to my house on weekdays that he doesn't have the kids. He is very transparent with me regarding his interactions with the ex. The kids get dropped off at his house on the days the ex have them ; the ex still has the key to his house. For the most part, I am not at all concerned. She is the mother of his children; she was his best friend and their friendship remains; he is a person who feels valuable when helping others —- all these are fine with me.
what makes me uncomfortable is what I see the boundary he is setting with his ex. He told me he is not paying child support but instead, they have written agreement he would help her with house repairs , which I am completely fine with it. But I do not feel ok that he goes to her house to help hanging up pictures; or rents car for her when her car needs repair; or she calls him when we are together asking him how to operate an electronic device or how to reset a circuit board. I am not at all jealous but it does bother me that she is calling him for things as such instead of trying to do them herself.
We have talked about it and he insisted that all he is doing is for kids' sake and he doesn't want to fight her with these issues. In his words " I don't want her to be resentful ; it's going to make things more difficult; plus she is not asking all the time". But what I see is he is enabling her dependance on him to take care of things as if they were still married because every time when there is a problem (not all kids related), the first person she calls is him. My added concern is that the situation might give the children the impression that dad and mom are still a couple. The 12-year-old is already very hostile towards me (which I don't take it personally at all); I am afraid the situation only reinforces her belief that I or anyone in my position is the obstacle that her parents can get back together.
P.S. I don't get involved when it comes to his kids. All I have said is " you need talk to you ex about it". And I don't see and interact with the kids often and I have no intention to replace their mom. He is the discipliner and the ex is the "friend". His 12 year old is very disrespectful towards him and very protective of her mom.
Am I out of line here ?
I have been with my divorced boyfriend for almost two years. He has two young girls, 12 and 8. I don't have kids. We are about the same age. He had been with his ex for almost 18 years prior to their divorce. The divorce was amicable and they still have close contact because of the kids. We do not live together as we both have our own houses. I am a little over an hour drive away from him; his ex-wife lives very close to him. I go to his house on the weekends when he doesn't have the kids and he comes to my house on weekdays that he doesn't have the kids. He is very transparent with me regarding his interactions with the ex. The kids get dropped off at his house on the days the ex have them ; the ex still has the key to his house. For the most part, I am not at all concerned. She is the mother of his children; she was his best friend and their friendship remains; he is a person who feels valuable when helping others —- all these are fine with me.
what makes me uncomfortable is what I see the boundary he is setting with his ex. He told me he is not paying child support but instead, they have written agreement he would help her with house repairs , which I am completely fine with it. But I do not feel ok that he goes to her house to help hanging up pictures; or rents car for her when her car needs repair; or she calls him when we are together asking him how to operate an electronic device or how to reset a circuit board. I am not at all jealous but it does bother me that she is calling him for things as such instead of trying to do them herself.
We have talked about it and he insisted that all he is doing is for kids' sake and he doesn't want to fight her with these issues. In his words " I don't want her to be resentful ; it's going to make things more difficult; plus she is not asking all the time". But what I see is he is enabling her dependance on him to take care of things as if they were still married because every time when there is a problem (not all kids related), the first person she calls is him. My added concern is that the situation might give the children the impression that dad and mom are still a couple. The 12-year-old is already very hostile towards me (which I don't take it personally at all); I am afraid the situation only reinforces her belief that I or anyone in my position is the obstacle that her parents can get back together.
P.S. I don't get involved when it comes to his kids. All I have said is " you need talk to you ex about it". And I don't see and interact with the kids often and I have no intention to replace their mom. He is the discipliner and the ex is the "friend". His 12 year old is very disrespectful towards him and very protective of her mom.
Am I out of line here ?
a) everything is fine.
b) this is one reason actual child support works; it dodges all the sketch substitutes.
c) it seems unlikely any chores-in-lieu-of-cash settlement, even written, would get a judge's sign-off.
posted by j_curiouser at 1:10 PM on January 28, 2024 [11 favorites]
b) this is one reason actual child support works; it dodges all the sketch substitutes.
c) it seems unlikely any chores-in-lieu-of-cash settlement, even written, would get a judge's sign-off.
posted by j_curiouser at 1:10 PM on January 28, 2024 [11 favorites]
You’re probably not going to get very far asking your boyfriend to change his dynamic with his ex.
Do you really want him to be less generous with his time, or do you want her to be more independent?
You only get to say if YOU feel disrespected and uncomfortable about how he spends his time and attention when you are together. If there’s an issue in how he’s treating you, it has to be independent of who is “causing” him to behave in that way.
You can also bring it up if you think (based on his words/mood/attitude) the dynamic with his ex is upsetting or hurting *him*, but only to the extent of pointing out that you can tell he is bothered.
Short answer, you can’t ask him to set boundaries with his ex, but you can set your own with him.
posted by itesser at 1:12 PM on January 28, 2024 [1 favorite]
Do you really want him to be less generous with his time, or do you want her to be more independent?
You only get to say if YOU feel disrespected and uncomfortable about how he spends his time and attention when you are together. If there’s an issue in how he’s treating you, it has to be independent of who is “causing” him to behave in that way.
You can also bring it up if you think (based on his words/mood/attitude) the dynamic with his ex is upsetting or hurting *him*, but only to the extent of pointing out that you can tell he is bothered.
Short answer, you can’t ask him to set boundaries with his ex, but you can set your own with him.
posted by itesser at 1:12 PM on January 28, 2024 [1 favorite]
You say they're friends, so just pretend she's some other friend asking for stuff like that. Some friends do, especially if they feel very inept and the other person is confident in their skills. Maybe it's a little lazy on her part or maybe she genuinely can't figure those things out, but whatever, it's his call whether he wants to put up with a friend who makes such requests and he's decided he does. And if he's doing it in part to keep things amicable for the kids, he could very well be correct in his calculation: a 12-year-old maybe needing extra help to understand that it's truly over isn't the worst price to pay for avoiding the agony that a bad joint custody/placement situation is for everyone involved.
posted by teremala at 1:12 PM on January 28, 2024 [7 favorites]
posted by teremala at 1:12 PM on January 28, 2024 [7 favorites]
You want more of his time and you're not going to get it. If you're ok with that, you're ok; if not, move on.
posted by kingdead at 1:16 PM on January 28, 2024 [1 favorite]
posted by kingdead at 1:16 PM on January 28, 2024 [1 favorite]
Response by poster: Update:
Thank you for the feedback so far. I had no experience with a divorced parent with young children and an ex. Thus the question. I am a very independent person and have enough hobbies to fill my time. I am perfectly content with the time spent together with him. So "wanting more of his time" is not the concern here. He is faithful and very transparent with me. I suppose I always have the option to walk away.
posted by roamingmind at 1:31 PM on January 28, 2024
Thank you for the feedback so far. I had no experience with a divorced parent with young children and an ex. Thus the question. I am a very independent person and have enough hobbies to fill my time. I am perfectly content with the time spent together with him. So "wanting more of his time" is not the concern here. He is faithful and very transparent with me. I suppose I always have the option to walk away.
posted by roamingmind at 1:31 PM on January 28, 2024
I had a similar arrangement with my ex wife when we first split. In our case we just slow walked the divorce for a couple years for financial reasons, but also because it was really amicable. I was paying some money, and doing some favors of a similar nature. When the divorce became final and the child support order kicked in, they (the state) charged me for all the child support going back to when we split. Because there were no records of me paying via the state portal, it was as if I hadn’t paid anything. I was incredibly lucky that my ex wife had a sense of fairness, and we came to an arrangement where I paid the “back” child support, and she gave it right back to me after it cleared the state portal. All I ended up being out was the admin fees charged by the state. What I’m getting at, is that without my ex wife’s cooperation, I could have been financially crippled. This arrangement sounds like it is playing with legal fire.
I don’t want to really comment on whether you are out of line; just wanted to throw in my experience as to why this arrangement may be a horrendous idea.
posted by HVACDC_Bag at 1:31 PM on January 28, 2024 [13 favorites]
I don’t want to really comment on whether you are out of line; just wanted to throw in my experience as to why this arrangement may be a horrendous idea.
posted by HVACDC_Bag at 1:31 PM on January 28, 2024 [13 favorites]
Response by poster: @HVACDC Thank you. I have raised this concern and suggested he should document all the repairs and hours he has put in for helping her. Some of his other friends also suggested the same.
posted by roamingmind at 1:36 PM on January 28, 2024 [2 favorites]
posted by roamingmind at 1:36 PM on January 28, 2024 [2 favorites]
You say you’re not jealous, but that’s surprising to me because this is exactly what jealousy looks like: the feeling of annoyance that someone is getting stuff that doesn’t belong to them. In this case, it sounds to me like you are bothered because the relationship he has with his ex does not look ex enough to you, and because you are worried it will also look that way to others, including his children. I don’t have an opinion on that piece — what you write doesn’t sound alarming to me personally, but maybe you, being closer to the situation, see something hinky that I can’t see from my armchair — but I do think you had better become clear on your own motivations, because if you are not clear on them, you will probably make mistakes.
posted by eirias at 1:56 PM on January 28, 2024 [24 favorites]
posted by eirias at 1:56 PM on January 28, 2024 [24 favorites]
My response reading your post is similar to what teremala wrote - you say you don't have a problem with their friendship, just with her asking him favors - but it's normal for friends to ask their friends for favors. And, it's understandable he'd want to make sure their friendship stays strong given that that will help with co-parenting.
I don't see any reason to assume the kids find this confusing - there are plenty of people who successfully co-parent and still make it clear to their kids and they aren't married anymore. Nor that she's being overly dependent - it doesn't sound like you really have the ability (given you live an hour away) to know just how frequently she's asking him for help.
But more importantly, it sounds like he's getting a lot of free childcare from her (given that it sounds like she has the kids more than 50% of the time), and so it's very reasonable for her to expect something from him in return. That's not being dependent, that's advocating for fairness.
So yeah, I think you're being a bit unfair here.
posted by coffeecat at 2:03 PM on January 28, 2024 [5 favorites]
I don't see any reason to assume the kids find this confusing - there are plenty of people who successfully co-parent and still make it clear to their kids and they aren't married anymore. Nor that she's being overly dependent - it doesn't sound like you really have the ability (given you live an hour away) to know just how frequently she's asking him for help.
But more importantly, it sounds like he's getting a lot of free childcare from her (given that it sounds like she has the kids more than 50% of the time), and so it's very reasonable for her to expect something from him in return. That's not being dependent, that's advocating for fairness.
So yeah, I think you're being a bit unfair here.
posted by coffeecat at 2:03 PM on January 28, 2024 [5 favorites]
He's getting SUCH a good financial deal here, so good one might wonder if his kids are getting the shaft. Red flags galore here.
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 2:05 PM on January 28, 2024 [18 favorites]
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 2:05 PM on January 28, 2024 [18 favorites]
If the agreement he has with her is that he will do household repairs and maintenance, then everything you report him doing falls into that except the car rental. Since the kids presumably need to be transported to school and lessons and stuff, making sure they have access to a rental car just sounds like co-parenting to me.
To answer your question, and putting legal peril that isn't your problem to one side, this seems healthy to me.
posted by DarlingBri at 2:05 PM on January 28, 2024 [4 favorites]
To answer your question, and putting legal peril that isn't your problem to one side, this seems healthy to me.
posted by DarlingBri at 2:05 PM on January 28, 2024 [4 favorites]
Perhaps you already know and have not shared it here, but if not, I think the most important thing is to know why he isn't paying child support and has this "house repairs" agreement instead. It would seem to me that his lack of financial contribution to his children would be more concerning than anything else.
posted by fies at 2:17 PM on January 28, 2024 [18 favorites]
posted by fies at 2:17 PM on January 28, 2024 [18 favorites]
Fair or not fair; legal or not legal, IME, you get to express your comfort with the situation and you get to decide whether or not the relationship works for you when it does not change. Because it ain't gonna change on your sayso no matter how much this guy wants to be with you.
posted by crush at 2:22 PM on January 28, 2024
posted by crush at 2:22 PM on January 28, 2024
The important thing here is not even your relationship with him or his relationship with his ex, but the welfare of the kids. This is just part of dating someone who is a parent. Those two people only get one childhood each and so anything that increases their practical and emotional stability is more important than your resentments or jealousy. Your feelings are normal and not wrong to have, but you need to recognize that any parenting situation he is threading the needle through in which his kids and co parent are stable and relatively cared for each other, is worth maintaining, even at the expense of his-yours romantic life, even for five or ten years. The stability for the kids is part of the package.
posted by panhopticon at 2:48 PM on January 28, 2024 [18 favorites]
posted by panhopticon at 2:48 PM on January 28, 2024 [18 favorites]
He has joint custody with the ex. The kids spend equal amount of time with each of them. But he spends much more time with the kids because he can work from time. She is an attorney so her court time dictates what time she can pick the kids up from his house on the days she has the kids. I was told she didn't request child support.
In my state, not one of these things matter that much. Gross income and overnights and the math is clear. A judge rarely wavers from this, and a judge must approve a child support settlement for a divorce decree. Ymmv.
That's why people get attys, for each party.
I was told she didn't request child support.
Child support is an obligation to the child, she has no right to decline it.
She may be entitled to marital support, but that's entirely separate.
posted by j_curiouser at 3:11 PM on January 28, 2024 [6 favorites]
In my state, not one of these things matter that much. Gross income and overnights and the math is clear. A judge rarely wavers from this, and a judge must approve a child support settlement for a divorce decree. Ymmv.
That's why people get attys, for each party.
I was told she didn't request child support.
Child support is an obligation to the child, she has no right to decline it.
She may be entitled to marital support, but that's entirely separate.
posted by j_curiouser at 3:11 PM on January 28, 2024 [6 favorites]
The 12-year-old is already very hostile towards me (which I don't take it personally at all); I am afraid the situation only reinforces her belief that I or anyone in my position is the obstacle that her parents can get back together.
Does this belief actually exist or is it the explanation you've come up with towards her hostility? I honestly can't imagine a twelve year old actively believing that their parents are likely to get back together 2+ years after splitting.
posted by hoyland at 3:21 PM on January 28, 2024 [2 favorites]
Does this belief actually exist or is it the explanation you've come up with towards her hostility? I honestly can't imagine a twelve year old actively believing that their parents are likely to get back together 2+ years after splitting.
posted by hoyland at 3:21 PM on January 28, 2024 [2 favorites]
If he's regularly getting called away during your time together to assist his ex than I think it's fair to feel put upon or see it as evidence of bad boundaries, but it's irrelevant whether it's keeping his ex dependent on him or giving his kids the wrong idea - if it doesn't work for you, it doesn't work for you. I think it's totally reasonable to be concerned about being in a relationship with someone whose child support obligations are so ambiguous, and who doesn't feel comfortable setting any boundaries with his ex around how immediately available he is to respond. I would also question the priorities of someone who would prefer to be beholden to an ex's needs and continued goodwill rather than enter into a formal financial agreement to support the kids. Ultimately child support payments are for the benefit of the children, not the parents.
Regardless, he's made it clear that this is the status quo and he's not willing to change the set up with his ex. Either you can tolerate the situation as is, or it's time to think about ending the relationship.
posted by fox problems at 3:22 PM on January 28, 2024 [4 favorites]
Regardless, he's made it clear that this is the status quo and he's not willing to change the set up with his ex. Either you can tolerate the situation as is, or it's time to think about ending the relationship.
posted by fox problems at 3:22 PM on January 28, 2024 [4 favorites]
Best answer: The fact that the arrangement was formalized as part of the divorce should be comforting. It’s not a largely ad-hoc weird thing where he’s getting random calls, this has been discussed.
My mom is also a professional who had lots of time and other obligations through her career, someone not handy at all or interested in home maintenance - after she divorced my dad, she managed house stuff by paying people to do it, often way, way too much. She got cheated plenty of times, had contractors make questionable decisions on their own - and didn’t care because she was tired/just couldn’t be bothered. Maybe your bf’s ex is like that. If the house is old ie difficult and expensive to maintain, and he’s handy etc, knows all the issues, it might just be more efficient and cheaper for him to handle this (vs having child support money get funnelled into contractors’ pockets).
Maybe this arrangement will change in the future, seems quite possible.
Sounds like you and the bf are spending most kid-free time together, that should be reassuring.
The eldest child - have you shared your observations (I mean strict observations, ie reporting speech and behaviours, not interpretations) with your bf?
posted by cotton dress sock at 3:30 PM on January 28, 2024 [5 favorites]
My mom is also a professional who had lots of time and other obligations through her career, someone not handy at all or interested in home maintenance - after she divorced my dad, she managed house stuff by paying people to do it, often way, way too much. She got cheated plenty of times, had contractors make questionable decisions on their own - and didn’t care because she was tired/just couldn’t be bothered. Maybe your bf’s ex is like that. If the house is old ie difficult and expensive to maintain, and he’s handy etc, knows all the issues, it might just be more efficient and cheaper for him to handle this (vs having child support money get funnelled into contractors’ pockets).
Maybe this arrangement will change in the future, seems quite possible.
Sounds like you and the bf are spending most kid-free time together, that should be reassuring.
The eldest child - have you shared your observations (I mean strict observations, ie reporting speech and behaviours, not interpretations) with your bf?
posted by cotton dress sock at 3:30 PM on January 28, 2024 [5 favorites]
Response by poster: Clarifications (2)
Financially, although he is not paying child support, he is paying all the health insurance including the ex's, all the kids' medical bills, all the cell phone bills ( all his kids' and the ex's are under his account) all extra curricular activities and summer camps , most of the kids' birthday parties...etc. When they were together, he was the one who paid all the expenses and his ex didn't make less than he did --- of course this is irrelevant to me and none of my business. I am financially better off and our money is separate so money is the least of my concern-- only mentioning to say he is financially contributing.
Yes, he is a very handy person. His ex, very similar to Cotton Dress Sock's mom, not handy and not interested in home maintenance; she lives in a maintained condo , pays HOA so I am assuming she could call the maintenance people on certain repairs --- but I could be wrong of that. Like I said, I have no issue of him helping her out on repairs since she is not handy and he is but I took a little issue with things such hanging up pictures, helping moving office...etc.
As for the child's behavior, we have discussed. He was eager to want them to accept me but I didn't want anything to be imposed on them when they are not ready as I understand the impact of divorce and their age. As I said I don't take it personally at all because this could happen to anyone in my position. I have met the kids four times ; she refuses to talk to me, never greeted me or say goodbye. When the dad is with me, she would text him things like " you are choose .... over me " .... so yeah, it's not my assumption or interpretation. I am actually not bothered but he has been very apologetic . What bothers me is how disrespectfully she treats her dad because it hurts him and their relationship is very intense. Now it may not my business but he is hurting so I care.
posted by roamingmind at 4:34 PM on January 28, 2024
Financially, although he is not paying child support, he is paying all the health insurance including the ex's, all the kids' medical bills, all the cell phone bills ( all his kids' and the ex's are under his account) all extra curricular activities and summer camps , most of the kids' birthday parties...etc. When they were together, he was the one who paid all the expenses and his ex didn't make less than he did --- of course this is irrelevant to me and none of my business. I am financially better off and our money is separate so money is the least of my concern-- only mentioning to say he is financially contributing.
Yes, he is a very handy person. His ex, very similar to Cotton Dress Sock's mom, not handy and not interested in home maintenance; she lives in a maintained condo , pays HOA so I am assuming she could call the maintenance people on certain repairs --- but I could be wrong of that. Like I said, I have no issue of him helping her out on repairs since she is not handy and he is but I took a little issue with things such hanging up pictures, helping moving office...etc.
As for the child's behavior, we have discussed. He was eager to want them to accept me but I didn't want anything to be imposed on them when they are not ready as I understand the impact of divorce and their age. As I said I don't take it personally at all because this could happen to anyone in my position. I have met the kids four times ; she refuses to talk to me, never greeted me or say goodbye. When the dad is with me, she would text him things like " you are choose .... over me " .... so yeah, it's not my assumption or interpretation. I am actually not bothered but he has been very apologetic . What bothers me is how disrespectfully she treats her dad because it hurts him and their relationship is very intense. Now it may not my business but he is hurting so I care.
posted by roamingmind at 4:34 PM on January 28, 2024
If I were you, I would try to figure out the root of why this bothers and unsettles you. It doesn't sound like anything about this arrangement interferes with your relationship in its current form (you don't live together and presumably don't have commingled finances, so her having keys to his house or him having unclear to you financial arrangements with her shouldn't impact you). I am guessing this is either anxiety about social optics in the present, or about impediments in the future:
1. If it's about optics -- are there external voices (or maybe internalized voices) of friends or family telling you that this is suspicious, or "improper" or "weird" or something in that vein is making you feel awkward or humiliated that your partner is still so enmeshed with his ex-wife?
2. If it's about the future, do you worry that this set-up will impede later stages of life integration you anticipate wanting (living together, being an actual step-parent, etc.)? Do you feel like the ex-wife still occupies a role you anticipate wanting for yourself? Have you talked about future plans and next steps on the "relationship escalator"? Are you on the same page? If you have not, maybe you are transferring your anxiety about the lack of a clear path for the future onto this issue?
Divorce from a co-parent is tricky, there can be threads of connection that don't obviously correspond to clear social categories of a current relationship vs. a former relationship, and "what benefits the kids" can be intangible and hard to understand if you are not one of the parents. I am divorced from the father of my child, and we are not even as amicable as you describe your boyfriend and his ex-wife being, and we have been divorced for much longer, but he is still the person I will ask to move my car for street cleaning when I am going out of town. When I moved into my current apartment (we are talking seven years after we separated), I had to go to work while the movers were slated to arrive, and I asked him to come to my house and hang out and let them in. My ex-husband doesn't have the key to my house, but knows where the box with the spare key is, and what the code is. And neither he nor I would characterize our relationship as "friends"!
The best way I can explain it is: my apartment, where my child is half the time, and my car, which I use to drive my child around, broadly map onto the "parenting" quadrant in my experience, so while I don't spell out specifically "hey, it would be more comfortable for our child if the movers brought all our stuff today rather than over the weekend, so can you please let them in" or "the car makes things for our child easier, so can you help me out with the car" there is an unspoken ambient emotional math underpinning such requests, and a kind of shared sensibility that is not necessarily articulated. What you are describing about your boyfriend and his arrangement seems very legible and familiar to me in a way that it might not if I didn't have first-hand experience of how dense and multi-layered co-parenting is, and how invisible and quotidian some of those layers are.
Going back to my earlier point, if you can identify what need is being threatened by this arrangement, or what anxiety is being triggered, I think you would be in a good position to deal with it in a straightforward way, either through self-soothing, or through a conversation with him.
posted by virve at 4:49 PM on January 28, 2024 [11 favorites]
1. If it's about optics -- are there external voices (or maybe internalized voices) of friends or family telling you that this is suspicious, or "improper" or "weird" or something in that vein is making you feel awkward or humiliated that your partner is still so enmeshed with his ex-wife?
2. If it's about the future, do you worry that this set-up will impede later stages of life integration you anticipate wanting (living together, being an actual step-parent, etc.)? Do you feel like the ex-wife still occupies a role you anticipate wanting for yourself? Have you talked about future plans and next steps on the "relationship escalator"? Are you on the same page? If you have not, maybe you are transferring your anxiety about the lack of a clear path for the future onto this issue?
Divorce from a co-parent is tricky, there can be threads of connection that don't obviously correspond to clear social categories of a current relationship vs. a former relationship, and "what benefits the kids" can be intangible and hard to understand if you are not one of the parents. I am divorced from the father of my child, and we are not even as amicable as you describe your boyfriend and his ex-wife being, and we have been divorced for much longer, but he is still the person I will ask to move my car for street cleaning when I am going out of town. When I moved into my current apartment (we are talking seven years after we separated), I had to go to work while the movers were slated to arrive, and I asked him to come to my house and hang out and let them in. My ex-husband doesn't have the key to my house, but knows where the box with the spare key is, and what the code is. And neither he nor I would characterize our relationship as "friends"!
The best way I can explain it is: my apartment, where my child is half the time, and my car, which I use to drive my child around, broadly map onto the "parenting" quadrant in my experience, so while I don't spell out specifically "hey, it would be more comfortable for our child if the movers brought all our stuff today rather than over the weekend, so can you please let them in" or "the car makes things for our child easier, so can you help me out with the car" there is an unspoken ambient emotional math underpinning such requests, and a kind of shared sensibility that is not necessarily articulated. What you are describing about your boyfriend and his arrangement seems very legible and familiar to me in a way that it might not if I didn't have first-hand experience of how dense and multi-layered co-parenting is, and how invisible and quotidian some of those layers are.
Going back to my earlier point, if you can identify what need is being threatened by this arrangement, or what anxiety is being triggered, I think you would be in a good position to deal with it in a straightforward way, either through self-soothing, or through a conversation with him.
posted by virve at 4:49 PM on January 28, 2024 [11 favorites]
Best answer: Many long term couples divide up household chores and responsibilities, and often in straight couples, things divide along gender lines. At the end of a relationship, it can be really tricky to find yourself fully responsible for a home when your husband has done all the handy-type things around the house. I bought up a fixer with my ex when we were married and he had time and skills. We have been split for years, but I still occasionally ask him house questions (more like one or two sentences, not help hanging pictures). Mostly I am figuring this stuff out on my own. It sounds like they've negotiated (in writing!) for this to be on-going, along with him providing regularly care of their children when it's her parenting time but she is busy with work. If she's an attorney, does he really make a lot more such that he'd even be paying child support even with 50/50 parenting time?
Anyway, it sounds like they are fine with this arrangement? If he was complaining about it, that would be one thing. But it sounds like you don't like it, partly because you are judging her for being dependent on him because you can do these things for yourself. But people are different, and get to be different. It sounds like she has a super busy job, so perhaps she hasn't focused her time on learning to do household repairs and such.
Is that the real reason, though? Or do you dislike that she calls when he's with you, and he dashes off to help? Is that what happens? That would annoy the crap out of me. I think you could talk to him about this, but it's important to be honest with yourself and him. There's a big difference between "She needs to be independent" (because why? and how is that your business?) and "I feel deprioritized and jealous when you interrupt our time together to help her with a relatively minor household task."
The kids are 12 and 8. I think the real question you need to ask yourself is, can you deal with this? This is their relationship, and it might shift over time, but it could also go on past the kids being adults. And as for why, well, it's hard to say. It could be healthy or not. I know a divorced straight couple where the ex-wife would often have needs and demands around the kids when it was her parenting time, and I think she used it to try to control her ex-husband. Is that your concern here?
posted by bluedaisy at 4:51 PM on January 28, 2024 [4 favorites]
Anyway, it sounds like they are fine with this arrangement? If he was complaining about it, that would be one thing. But it sounds like you don't like it, partly because you are judging her for being dependent on him because you can do these things for yourself. But people are different, and get to be different. It sounds like she has a super busy job, so perhaps she hasn't focused her time on learning to do household repairs and such.
Is that the real reason, though? Or do you dislike that she calls when he's with you, and he dashes off to help? Is that what happens? That would annoy the crap out of me. I think you could talk to him about this, but it's important to be honest with yourself and him. There's a big difference between "She needs to be independent" (because why? and how is that your business?) and "I feel deprioritized and jealous when you interrupt our time together to help her with a relatively minor household task."
The kids are 12 and 8. I think the real question you need to ask yourself is, can you deal with this? This is their relationship, and it might shift over time, but it could also go on past the kids being adults. And as for why, well, it's hard to say. It could be healthy or not. I know a divorced straight couple where the ex-wife would often have needs and demands around the kids when it was her parenting time, and I think she used it to try to control her ex-husband. Is that your concern here?
posted by bluedaisy at 4:51 PM on January 28, 2024 [4 favorites]
Best answer: It's not clear why YOU want to ask him to set these boundaries.
You say you are satisfied with the amount of time you spend together and trust that he is faithful to you. So what is it about the situation that is bothering you?
How he spends his time and energy outside of the time you spend together is up to him to manage. If you're getting what you want out of the relationship, this is none of your business. If there are aspects of it that are a problem for you, try clarifying for yourself exactly what they are. Are you concerned that this relationship keeps him from moving on with you? That it takes up too much of his mental energy so he can't focus on you? That it indicates different boundaries than you have, which may be an incompatibility for you?
If your concerns aren't personal, then it would be inappropriate for you to ask for this. Your feelings about what his ex should do on her own or how the kids are handling it are very much not something you get a say in.
(On preview, what virve said!)
posted by metasarah at 4:54 PM on January 28, 2024 [1 favorite]
You say you are satisfied with the amount of time you spend together and trust that he is faithful to you. So what is it about the situation that is bothering you?
How he spends his time and energy outside of the time you spend together is up to him to manage. If you're getting what you want out of the relationship, this is none of your business. If there are aspects of it that are a problem for you, try clarifying for yourself exactly what they are. Are you concerned that this relationship keeps him from moving on with you? That it takes up too much of his mental energy so he can't focus on you? That it indicates different boundaries than you have, which may be an incompatibility for you?
If your concerns aren't personal, then it would be inappropriate for you to ask for this. Your feelings about what his ex should do on her own or how the kids are handling it are very much not something you get a say in.
(On preview, what virve said!)
posted by metasarah at 4:54 PM on January 28, 2024 [1 favorite]
(Also, in my area there condos would not have maintenance staff for work done inside the unit, only in common areas.)
posted by metasarah at 4:58 PM on January 28, 2024
posted by metasarah at 4:58 PM on January 28, 2024
Her dependence on him for small tasks does keep them close, but what really keeps them close is their kids and their long friendship. Spend more time assessing why you are bothered; a BF who is good to his ex- is a good guy, generally, and I think getting involved and upset by this is not healthy for you.
posted by theora55 at 4:58 PM on January 28, 2024
posted by theora55 at 4:58 PM on January 28, 2024
Response by poster: @Bluedaisy
Yes, they are fine with this arrangement. Yes, I am concerned it takes up too much of his mental energy; and yes, I think she is using it to control him. And yes, I feel deprioritized when he has to answer her call on how to operate a new video recorder when we were together. Yes, I might be judging her because I would look up in the manual to figure it out myself.
posted by roamingmind at 5:09 PM on January 28, 2024
Yes, they are fine with this arrangement. Yes, I am concerned it takes up too much of his mental energy; and yes, I think she is using it to control him. And yes, I feel deprioritized when he has to answer her call on how to operate a new video recorder when we were together. Yes, I might be judging her because I would look up in the manual to figure it out myself.
posted by roamingmind at 5:09 PM on January 28, 2024
Response by poster: @ Virve
No I don't feel humiliated or awkward and no I have no reason to doubt there is any romance lingering between them. I have met all his families -- parents and the sister's family and they have welcomed me with open arms and we get along great.
Yes, I am little concerned about future. I don't think I will like it if the ex is constantly calling him for help. He has been talking about merging our lives together and in the process of building a new master bedroom for us. I am very hesitant because of the 12-year-old attitude. No I have no desire to play the role of a mom and that's why I have chosen not to bear my own children.
posted by roamingmind at 5:33 PM on January 28, 2024
No I don't feel humiliated or awkward and no I have no reason to doubt there is any romance lingering between them. I have met all his families -- parents and the sister's family and they have welcomed me with open arms and we get along great.
Yes, I am little concerned about future. I don't think I will like it if the ex is constantly calling him for help. He has been talking about merging our lives together and in the process of building a new master bedroom for us. I am very hesitant because of the 12-year-old attitude. No I have no desire to play the role of a mom and that's why I have chosen not to bear my own children.
posted by roamingmind at 5:33 PM on January 28, 2024
Okay, roamingmind, I think you're at the heart of the problem. I get why this bothers you. As we like to say here, this isn't an ex problem. It's a boyfriend problem. So I think you have to make a decision: do you want to continue to date a man who is enmeshed with his ex wife? You can certainly talk to him about this stuff, and I'd frame it more with the "I" statements you have in your last comments to us, especially the ones about how you feel. I don't think she's helpless; she's just used to depending on him and likes that dynamic. He likes it too, enough not to try to change it.
Also, about the kid: 12 is an age where sometimes kids can be jerks to their parents. People often have ideas of how other people's kids should behave, but it's always much harder than you'd think. If a 12 year old texts their parent, "You chose your girlfriend over me," they might really mean something more like, "I miss you" and "I am grieving the end of my parents' marriage and am nostalgic for a time that was easier for me." But it's hard for adults to have that level of emotional intelligence, never mind kids. Is she in therapy at all?
Because of the loose custody arrangement, where she's spending her mother's parenting time with her father, she might think she's in competition with you for time with her dad. But that's really something they all need to sort out. You could consider asking him to share less with you. I question his judgment in sharing his daughter's negative texts about you; I don't really see how that helps your or him. Does he have friends, especially men friends, that he spends time with? Is he in therapy? Does he have someone to talk to about all this?
Have you mostly been in monogamous relationships and with people who don't have kids, or who have limited custody or stricter boundaries? Their marriage is over, but they have a long-term on-going relationship, defined partly by legal agreements and partly what they've agreed on. I wonder if it might be clarifying if you think of yourself as in a relationship more akin non-monogamy or polyamory. It sounds like you would like to be more to him than you are, more in a traditional monogamous way. If you've mostly been in monogamous relationships and with people who don't have kids, this could feel really strange. It's good that you're reflecting before escalating.
This is something you all can talk about, and discuss in therapy. He might not want to change his arrangement, or he might be open to it. But I don't think framing it as something is wrong with her or with them is going to help you, or get you what you want. It might be helpful to figure out what you really want, and then have a conversation with him to see if you all agree you are in enough of the same place.
In the big picture, though, if you don't want these kids in your life, don't date this man. He's only about ten years left with them while they're young. It's a small slice of his life, and yet you're wanting more of it, when they really do need him. And they'll always be his kids. Don't marry a father if you don't want to be a stepmom.
It's super reasonable to want a good relationship with his kids before you escalate. He might be willing to or able to help facilitate that. I can tell you that starting off with so much negativity between the two of you doesn't bode well for your short term or long term future.
posted by bluedaisy at 5:55 PM on January 28, 2024 [13 favorites]
Also, about the kid: 12 is an age where sometimes kids can be jerks to their parents. People often have ideas of how other people's kids should behave, but it's always much harder than you'd think. If a 12 year old texts their parent, "You chose your girlfriend over me," they might really mean something more like, "I miss you" and "I am grieving the end of my parents' marriage and am nostalgic for a time that was easier for me." But it's hard for adults to have that level of emotional intelligence, never mind kids. Is she in therapy at all?
Because of the loose custody arrangement, where she's spending her mother's parenting time with her father, she might think she's in competition with you for time with her dad. But that's really something they all need to sort out. You could consider asking him to share less with you. I question his judgment in sharing his daughter's negative texts about you; I don't really see how that helps your or him. Does he have friends, especially men friends, that he spends time with? Is he in therapy? Does he have someone to talk to about all this?
Have you mostly been in monogamous relationships and with people who don't have kids, or who have limited custody or stricter boundaries? Their marriage is over, but they have a long-term on-going relationship, defined partly by legal agreements and partly what they've agreed on. I wonder if it might be clarifying if you think of yourself as in a relationship more akin non-monogamy or polyamory. It sounds like you would like to be more to him than you are, more in a traditional monogamous way. If you've mostly been in monogamous relationships and with people who don't have kids, this could feel really strange. It's good that you're reflecting before escalating.
This is something you all can talk about, and discuss in therapy. He might not want to change his arrangement, or he might be open to it. But I don't think framing it as something is wrong with her or with them is going to help you, or get you what you want. It might be helpful to figure out what you really want, and then have a conversation with him to see if you all agree you are in enough of the same place.
In the big picture, though, if you don't want these kids in your life, don't date this man. He's only about ten years left with them while they're young. It's a small slice of his life, and yet you're wanting more of it, when they really do need him. And they'll always be his kids. Don't marry a father if you don't want to be a stepmom.
It's super reasonable to want a good relationship with his kids before you escalate. He might be willing to or able to help facilitate that. I can tell you that starting off with so much negativity between the two of you doesn't bode well for your short term or long term future.
posted by bluedaisy at 5:55 PM on January 28, 2024 [13 favorites]
If you merge your life together with a guy who is a dad, then you become a mom. The only way for you to avoid becoming a mom in this situation is to not merge your life together with a person who is a dad. Also, dad-hood does not end when the kids turn 18.
posted by heatherlogan at 7:18 PM on January 28, 2024 [8 favorites]
posted by heatherlogan at 7:18 PM on January 28, 2024 [8 favorites]
Eh, they are still enmeshed emotionally. That seems quite clear. If you want to get married and have kids with him, it’s probably not happening any time soon. Maybe their degree of enmeshment will fade over time.
Obviously you can’t demand he not be amicable with his coparent. But it seems completely reasonable to ask him to limit the non-parenting stuff while you are around.
posted by haptic_avenger at 7:29 PM on January 28, 2024 [1 favorite]
Obviously you can’t demand he not be amicable with his coparent. But it seems completely reasonable to ask him to limit the non-parenting stuff while you are around.
posted by haptic_avenger at 7:29 PM on January 28, 2024 [1 favorite]
Best answer: As a divorced father of three, I do appreciate your problem/conundrum. You do sound like a well adjusted independent person who has thought out the issue. Whenever my ex, my kids or even the people that worked for me came to me pointing out a problem, the first question I had was, "What is your proposed solution?" Maybe, "what is your best case solution?"
I do not know what your proposed solution is, but it seems to me that there are two solutions, one at either end of the spectrum that will solve some or all of your concerns. One, "get over it" or accept the situation as the way it is and decide to live with it or not. Two, I think the situation will change when/as/if the ex finds a bf or new significant other.
As for the two children, it sounds to me as if the ex is bad mouthing the father (or you or both) behind his/your back. I think that he should talk to his ex about the 12 yo's resentment and anger. I would even suggest that the 12 get counseling or talk to a therapist. I think it will really help everyone, but especially the 12 yo, in the long run. My guess is that the 8 yo might be picking up on it too and that it would help if they too had someone to talk to.
posted by JohnnyGunn at 9:24 PM on January 28, 2024 [1 favorite]
I do not know what your proposed solution is, but it seems to me that there are two solutions, one at either end of the spectrum that will solve some or all of your concerns. One, "get over it" or accept the situation as the way it is and decide to live with it or not. Two, I think the situation will change when/as/if the ex finds a bf or new significant other.
As for the two children, it sounds to me as if the ex is bad mouthing the father (or you or both) behind his/your back. I think that he should talk to his ex about the 12 yo's resentment and anger. I would even suggest that the 12 get counseling or talk to a therapist. I think it will really help everyone, but especially the 12 yo, in the long run. My guess is that the 8 yo might be picking up on it too and that it would help if they too had someone to talk to.
posted by JohnnyGunn at 9:24 PM on January 28, 2024 [1 favorite]
Response by poster: Clarifications/Background (3)
Again, thank you for all the comments. Truly appreciate all your insights.
A bit more clarifications/background---
1. The ex wanted the divorce and he wanted it to work but the ex refused couple counseling. He went on with the therapist himself, who told him he had boundary issues. The main cause of their divorce was that they couldn't agree to anything on how to discipline the kids and neither would compromise. He felt what he did for her was unappreciated while she accused him of being manipulative. The kids side with the mom because they can get their way with her but not with him-- so have I been told.
2. I was never in a relationship with a guy that had kids or ex wife in the picture. I had two long term relationships prior and both times there were only two of us so we were each others' priority .
3. They have this current arrangement in lieu of child support is as Cotton Dress Sock put " more efficient and cheaper for him to handle this (vs having child support money get funneled into contractors’ pockets" . In his words " if she asked for money , I would not have done any of these things for her; this is a win-win situation"
4. I don't have anything against their arrangement or as some of you put " it's none of my business " and I understand and agree completely that the children's well being is the priority. My discomfort and unease is never about him making the kids priority, which he should. What I took issue is some of the things he is doing for her do not feel child-related but rather HE IS LETTING her taking advantage of his time and energy. I have no issue that they remain friends but I doubt a friend would call on early Saturday morning to ask how to operate a new video recorder while there is manual and Internet resources, knowing we were together. I take more issue that he actually likes such dynamics. That's where I ask for boundaries. His sister pointed out that he is letting the ex take advantage of our time together and I agree.
5. When the kids are with the mom, he calls them each night even if they are just picked up in the evening. If I am with him one of these nights, I would set timer to remind him to call the kids . I have given the kids Christmas and birthday gifts and made sure the gifts were something they wanted or needed. Not that I expected but they never said thank-you. When the 12-year-old put him on guilt trip by texting him " you are choosing [ ] over us" ; he was very affected and felt very guilty. I told him she was just feeling insecure and needed his reassurance that dad is always going to be there for her, and I honestly believe so and if I am bothered it's only because he feels guilty about being an hour away from the kids.
6. The first time I met the 12-year-old was unexpected. The girl was supposed to be picked up at mall and went to mom's place from there ; but instead, she decided to come to dad's house first . I was just arrived then and she refused to go inside, the dad had to demand her to come in to say hi. Later, the ex accused him of being manipulative regarding this unexpected encounter.
7. I rarely call him on the nights he has the kids and perfectly ok if he doesn't call. And we rarely meet when he has the kids.
8. Last Thanksgiving he had kids. He wanted me to have dinner in his house but other than the kids, the ex and the ex-in-laws were also there and I didn't want to be an intruder of their family gathering, so I didn't go. Did it bother me? I didn't think so but I suppose I was indeed a little uncomfortable.
9. When I say I have no desire to play a mom's role , I mean I have no intention to replace the mom nor do I want to get involved with parenting the kids. That's strictly between him and the ex.
posted by roamingmind at 9:32 PM on January 28, 2024 [1 favorite]
Again, thank you for all the comments. Truly appreciate all your insights.
A bit more clarifications/background---
1. The ex wanted the divorce and he wanted it to work but the ex refused couple counseling. He went on with the therapist himself, who told him he had boundary issues. The main cause of their divorce was that they couldn't agree to anything on how to discipline the kids and neither would compromise. He felt what he did for her was unappreciated while she accused him of being manipulative. The kids side with the mom because they can get their way with her but not with him-- so have I been told.
2. I was never in a relationship with a guy that had kids or ex wife in the picture. I had two long term relationships prior and both times there were only two of us so we were each others' priority .
3. They have this current arrangement in lieu of child support is as Cotton Dress Sock put " more efficient and cheaper for him to handle this (vs having child support money get funneled into contractors’ pockets" . In his words " if she asked for money , I would not have done any of these things for her; this is a win-win situation"
4. I don't have anything against their arrangement or as some of you put " it's none of my business " and I understand and agree completely that the children's well being is the priority. My discomfort and unease is never about him making the kids priority, which he should. What I took issue is some of the things he is doing for her do not feel child-related but rather HE IS LETTING her taking advantage of his time and energy. I have no issue that they remain friends but I doubt a friend would call on early Saturday morning to ask how to operate a new video recorder while there is manual and Internet resources, knowing we were together. I take more issue that he actually likes such dynamics. That's where I ask for boundaries. His sister pointed out that he is letting the ex take advantage of our time together and I agree.
5. When the kids are with the mom, he calls them each night even if they are just picked up in the evening. If I am with him one of these nights, I would set timer to remind him to call the kids . I have given the kids Christmas and birthday gifts and made sure the gifts were something they wanted or needed. Not that I expected but they never said thank-you. When the 12-year-old put him on guilt trip by texting him " you are choosing [ ] over us" ; he was very affected and felt very guilty. I told him she was just feeling insecure and needed his reassurance that dad is always going to be there for her, and I honestly believe so and if I am bothered it's only because he feels guilty about being an hour away from the kids.
6. The first time I met the 12-year-old was unexpected. The girl was supposed to be picked up at mall and went to mom's place from there ; but instead, she decided to come to dad's house first . I was just arrived then and she refused to go inside, the dad had to demand her to come in to say hi. Later, the ex accused him of being manipulative regarding this unexpected encounter.
7. I rarely call him on the nights he has the kids and perfectly ok if he doesn't call. And we rarely meet when he has the kids.
8. Last Thanksgiving he had kids. He wanted me to have dinner in his house but other than the kids, the ex and the ex-in-laws were also there and I didn't want to be an intruder of their family gathering, so I didn't go. Did it bother me? I didn't think so but I suppose I was indeed a little uncomfortable.
9. When I say I have no desire to play a mom's role , I mean I have no intention to replace the mom nor do I want to get involved with parenting the kids. That's strictly between him and the ex.
posted by roamingmind at 9:32 PM on January 28, 2024 [1 favorite]
Response by poster: 10. Since I never had to deal with such situation, I wanted to know if him helping the ex in the ways that I do not see as co-parenting related is reasonable and if my request for boundaries is within reasons.
posted by roamingmind at 9:39 PM on January 28, 2024
posted by roamingmind at 9:39 PM on January 28, 2024
Response by poster: 11. The 12-year old is seeing a therapist for her anger issues. But the dad thinks she is not forthcoming with the therapist and she only gives what she thinks the therapist wants to hear.
posted by roamingmind at 9:42 PM on January 28, 2024
posted by roamingmind at 9:42 PM on January 28, 2024
Response by poster: 12. The 8 year old is more accepting and she follows her sister's suit; my take is she doesn't want to betray her sister or mom by interacting with me, which I understand and am fine with.
posted by roamingmind at 9:57 PM on January 28, 2024
posted by roamingmind at 9:57 PM on January 28, 2024
Yikes, ok. Yep got the picture now. Completely appreciate why you feel uncomfortable. I would be too, given this dynamic.
I think your request for better boundaries is utterly reasonable.
posted by cotton dress sock at 10:09 PM on January 28, 2024 [1 favorite]
I think your request for better boundaries is utterly reasonable.
posted by cotton dress sock at 10:09 PM on January 28, 2024 [1 favorite]
Best answer: Re #10. While the arrangement may be a little unusual, I do think it is reasonable given the financial aspects of it. Your request for boundaries is within reason for sure. I am just not sure it can be achieved in the short run.
Re: #11, that sounds about right for any 12 yo and this 12 yo. As a father of one daughter, my oldest, I had to learn a lot of new skills. I grew up as one of three boys and had my cousins all being boys around my age. It is/was easy for me to relate to a 12yo boy.
A 12 yo girl was much more complicated for me. My daughter is now about 30. Her mother, her brothers and me, we all find her a little difficult to read/deal with now. As a 12yo going through all sorts of physical, emotional and social pressures, she was quick tempered and often needed room. All 3 of mine went to counselors for a little while following the split. Quite frankly, I think I am just now seeing the results as they are well adjusted adults.
Their relationship with my gf of 6 years who has never married or had kids is on the same level as you seem to be pursuing with your bf's kids. She buys them gifts on birthdays and holidays. She gets along with them when we are together as a family or group. She has avoided situations like graduations where she, the kids, me, the ex, everyone would be in an awkward situation of having to play nice with each other. I know they appreciate her for not making things awkward for insisting on being included. She, like you, is very independent and does not take most things personally.
Stay the course. Help your bf slowly appreciate he needs to set some boundaries.It is ok to say, "I am busy right now, but I will help you tomorrow, next week or whenever." It is a start to wean her off the dependence not associated with the kids.
I would add that a lot has to do with the children's specific personalities. All three of mine are a total of 30 months top to bottom, but they are very different personality wise. My youngest is easy going and does not worry about what others think. He gets along with my gf famously. He will text her things. My other son is a type A and leads a very structured life at the hands of the US Government. He is very polite thanking her and whatnot, but has no real relationship with her other than she is my gf and for that he is thankful. My daughter runs hot and cold. I do think there is a little unspoken competition between her and my gf mostly from my gf's standpoint. They are both strong personalities.
Time is your ally.
posted by JohnnyGunn at 10:13 PM on January 28, 2024 [2 favorites]
Re: #11, that sounds about right for any 12 yo and this 12 yo. As a father of one daughter, my oldest, I had to learn a lot of new skills. I grew up as one of three boys and had my cousins all being boys around my age. It is/was easy for me to relate to a 12yo boy.
A 12 yo girl was much more complicated for me. My daughter is now about 30. Her mother, her brothers and me, we all find her a little difficult to read/deal with now. As a 12yo going through all sorts of physical, emotional and social pressures, she was quick tempered and often needed room. All 3 of mine went to counselors for a little while following the split. Quite frankly, I think I am just now seeing the results as they are well adjusted adults.
Their relationship with my gf of 6 years who has never married or had kids is on the same level as you seem to be pursuing with your bf's kids. She buys them gifts on birthdays and holidays. She gets along with them when we are together as a family or group. She has avoided situations like graduations where she, the kids, me, the ex, everyone would be in an awkward situation of having to play nice with each other. I know they appreciate her for not making things awkward for insisting on being included. She, like you, is very independent and does not take most things personally.
Stay the course. Help your bf slowly appreciate he needs to set some boundaries.It is ok to say, "I am busy right now, but I will help you tomorrow, next week or whenever." It is a start to wean her off the dependence not associated with the kids.
I would add that a lot has to do with the children's specific personalities. All three of mine are a total of 30 months top to bottom, but they are very different personality wise. My youngest is easy going and does not worry about what others think. He gets along with my gf famously. He will text her things. My other son is a type A and leads a very structured life at the hands of the US Government. He is very polite thanking her and whatnot, but has no real relationship with her other than she is my gf and for that he is thankful. My daughter runs hot and cold. I do think there is a little unspoken competition between her and my gf mostly from my gf's standpoint. They are both strong personalities.
Time is your ally.
posted by JohnnyGunn at 10:13 PM on January 28, 2024 [2 favorites]
It is a mistake to describe this as amicable. It is also a mistake to believe everything he tells you about his ex. I’m sure he believes it, but I just don’t believe a man who can’t set boundaries with his ex is always creating appropriate and consistent rules and structures with his kids.
Also, why are you setting a timer to remind him to call his kids? Is he asking you? If he’s not asking you, then it is not appropriate for you to manage his life this way. He needs to learn to do that.
This couple - your boyfriend and his ex - are still playing out all the dysfunction from their marriage. They are still in an active, if sexless, relationship. How long was he single before before you all started dating? I suspect not long. It would be good for him to get a better handle on managing his life and separating more from his ex. I would suggest not dating a man who is still working through so much with his ex.
I am not convinced parenting disagreements were the reason for the divorce either. I also think he’s used to strong women telling him what to do and he’ll start playing out these same patterns with you.
posted by bluedaisy at 10:42 PM on January 28, 2024 [3 favorites]
Also, why are you setting a timer to remind him to call his kids? Is he asking you? If he’s not asking you, then it is not appropriate for you to manage his life this way. He needs to learn to do that.
This couple - your boyfriend and his ex - are still playing out all the dysfunction from their marriage. They are still in an active, if sexless, relationship. How long was he single before before you all started dating? I suspect not long. It would be good for him to get a better handle on managing his life and separating more from his ex. I would suggest not dating a man who is still working through so much with his ex.
I am not convinced parenting disagreements were the reason for the divorce either. I also think he’s used to strong women telling him what to do and he’ll start playing out these same patterns with you.
posted by bluedaisy at 10:42 PM on January 28, 2024 [3 favorites]
At the end of the day, you can't make him set boundaries. All you can do is decide what yours are.
You need to let him make his own decisions and live his own life, and what you have control over is how you will handle that; is this situation a dealbreaker for you? If it is like this for the next ten years, can you tolerate it?
Do you want to walk away, if nothing changes? Maybe the answer is yes, and if so it's time to end the relationship. But if the answer is no, then you need to work on letting this go.
posted by The Vintner of Our Disco Tent at 6:40 AM on January 29, 2024
You need to let him make his own decisions and live his own life, and what you have control over is how you will handle that; is this situation a dealbreaker for you? If it is like this for the next ten years, can you tolerate it?
Do you want to walk away, if nothing changes? Maybe the answer is yes, and if so it's time to end the relationship. But if the answer is no, then you need to work on letting this go.
posted by The Vintner of Our Disco Tent at 6:40 AM on January 29, 2024
Best answer: One note - there’s a lot of assuming that he would pay a lot of child support outside this arrangement, but that comes from a place of assuming that men are always responsible for child support. In reality, child support is a function of how much each person makes and how many overnights the children spend with each parent. In a situation where they are spending equal amounts of time with each parent and the mother makes more money, she could absolutely be responsible paying child support to the father.
I know a divorced couple with 50-50 custody who make about the same and where neither has chosen to pursue child support as the most likely outcome is one owing the other $25 a month or something similar. So he’s not necessarily getting a stellar financial deal.
I also agree that he sounds really enmeshed with his ex-wife and it is okay for this to be something you don’t want to put up with.
posted by jeoc at 6:43 AM on January 29, 2024 [1 favorite]
I know a divorced couple with 50-50 custody who make about the same and where neither has chosen to pursue child support as the most likely outcome is one owing the other $25 a month or something similar. So he’s not necessarily getting a stellar financial deal.
I also agree that he sounds really enmeshed with his ex-wife and it is okay for this to be something you don’t want to put up with.
posted by jeoc at 6:43 AM on January 29, 2024 [1 favorite]
I’ve read all of your updates. You are always going to come last in this situation after the ex and the kids. It’s obviously a good thing to prioritize the kids and this looks different in a divorce. But these girls are clearly headed into a rocky adolescence that is going to take up a ton of time and energy, and does not seem to be headed to a place where you can really have any productive role at all.
They are still his primary family and you are secondary, basically.
I have a friend who is in a situation sort of reminiscent of yours. Personally I think she deserves more, but she’s ok with it in large part because her job is very demanding and she doesn’t have time for more. One big difference too is that she actually is involved more closely than you are in family life with the kids - school work, spending time together, cooking, etc. So it’s more of an integrated whole because even though she is absolutely not a parent figure in any way, she and her partner share a goal of supporting the kids.
At the end of the day, I think you have to fit in to your partner’s life as family and a priority in some way that just does not seem to be happening here.
posted by haptic_avenger at 7:46 AM on January 29, 2024 [1 favorite]
They are still his primary family and you are secondary, basically.
I have a friend who is in a situation sort of reminiscent of yours. Personally I think she deserves more, but she’s ok with it in large part because her job is very demanding and she doesn’t have time for more. One big difference too is that she actually is involved more closely than you are in family life with the kids - school work, spending time together, cooking, etc. So it’s more of an integrated whole because even though she is absolutely not a parent figure in any way, she and her partner share a goal of supporting the kids.
At the end of the day, I think you have to fit in to your partner’s life as family and a priority in some way that just does not seem to be happening here.
posted by haptic_avenger at 7:46 AM on January 29, 2024 [1 favorite]
One thing I've noted here is that your description of the agreement has shifted. You initially described it as being about house repairs/projects, but now in your more recent comments you're more narrowly focused on whether the projects/requests are specifically related to co-parenting or the children. Those aren't quite the same thing, and if you're measuring your expectations against the latter when the actual agreement is the former, I can see why you're feeling frustrated that the boundaries aren't where you think they should be. The sorts of requests you describe sound to me like they mostly fit pretty handily into a framework where she can call him for help with general house issues, and less so if she's only supposed to be calling him for help with specifically child-related house issues.
If this is something there's a lack of clarity about between you, it might be really useful to get clarity on that.
But generally even with your updates my answer above stands pretty much unchanged - they have their agreement and it works for them and their kids. I think your most reasonable path is to ask for changes around how he responses to these requests specifically when he is spending time with you, not for a wholesale re-negotiation of what kinds of requests are okay in the first place. And I don't think you should merge your lives any further right now while you and the 12-year-old feel the way you each seem to about each other.
posted by Stacey at 8:51 AM on January 29, 2024 [3 favorites]
If this is something there's a lack of clarity about between you, it might be really useful to get clarity on that.
But generally even with your updates my answer above stands pretty much unchanged - they have their agreement and it works for them and their kids. I think your most reasonable path is to ask for changes around how he responses to these requests specifically when he is spending time with you, not for a wholesale re-negotiation of what kinds of requests are okay in the first place. And I don't think you should merge your lives any further right now while you and the 12-year-old feel the way you each seem to about each other.
posted by Stacey at 8:51 AM on January 29, 2024 [3 favorites]
roamingmind: I don't think I will like it if the ex is constantly calling him for help.
I think you answered your question. This is what his co-parenting relationship looks like, and as another commenter said, just because his children will eventually turn 18 doesn't mean he will stop being their father then.
Well, no: you didn't answer your question. Your question was "Am I out of line?" and the answer is "Not really, but that's the wrong question." You are staying in your relationship because you hope that the way your boyfriend co-parents will change. You were not out of line asking if he would be willing to change his co-parenting relationship. He was not out of line saying no, he wasn't willing. But at this point your options are a) stay in this relationship while he continues to co-parent in this way, or b) leave this relationship.
I think you're also asking whether this co-parenting relationship is unusual. Yes, it is! It is extremely unusual to help your ex-partner/co-parent with hanging pictures or operating electronics on a moment's notice! But it doesn't really matter if it's unusual or not. I've seen all kinds of unusual and nontraditional arrangements. Many are even less traditional than this. (e.g., I've got a family member who lives in a separate unit on the same property as their ex-partner/co-parent.) What matters is if you personally want to date someone who does it, and it sounds like you don't. If you leave him, you can find someone who is not in a nontraditional co-parenting arrangement, and he can find someone who is comfortable with a partner who has a nontraditional arrangement.
posted by capricorn at 10:06 AM on January 29, 2024 [2 favorites]
I think you answered your question. This is what his co-parenting relationship looks like, and as another commenter said, just because his children will eventually turn 18 doesn't mean he will stop being their father then.
Well, no: you didn't answer your question. Your question was "Am I out of line?" and the answer is "Not really, but that's the wrong question." You are staying in your relationship because you hope that the way your boyfriend co-parents will change. You were not out of line asking if he would be willing to change his co-parenting relationship. He was not out of line saying no, he wasn't willing. But at this point your options are a) stay in this relationship while he continues to co-parent in this way, or b) leave this relationship.
I think you're also asking whether this co-parenting relationship is unusual. Yes, it is! It is extremely unusual to help your ex-partner/co-parent with hanging pictures or operating electronics on a moment's notice! But it doesn't really matter if it's unusual or not. I've seen all kinds of unusual and nontraditional arrangements. Many are even less traditional than this. (e.g., I've got a family member who lives in a separate unit on the same property as their ex-partner/co-parent.) What matters is if you personally want to date someone who does it, and it sounds like you don't. If you leave him, you can find someone who is not in a nontraditional co-parenting arrangement, and he can find someone who is comfortable with a partner who has a nontraditional arrangement.
posted by capricorn at 10:06 AM on January 29, 2024 [2 favorites]
Oh yeah, I totally agree that this is really unusual and nontraditional. It's also what OP's partner has chosen, and he's already told her he's not going to change it, so...
posted by capricorn at 11:33 AM on January 29, 2024
posted by capricorn at 11:33 AM on January 29, 2024
This is unusual, but I'd say it's pretty common for some divorced men to go along with things because it's easier than asserting boundaries, until they get into a relationship with another woman who wants them to have stronger boundaries. I've seen this before with men who are more conflict-avoidant and take the path that seems easier. The change happens not because they change, but because the new partner pushes them in a different direction, so doing what the new partner wants feels easier even if it creates conflict with the ex.
This seems especially common when the man has initiated the divorce (for any reason, but especially in an affair situation) and has some guilt about leaving the marriage.
posted by bluedaisy at 12:04 PM on January 29, 2024 [1 favorite]
This seems especially common when the man has initiated the divorce (for any reason, but especially in an affair situation) and has some guilt about leaving the marriage.
posted by bluedaisy at 12:04 PM on January 29, 2024 [1 favorite]
Best answer: Be honest with yourself if you are okay always coming last. She will always be in his life and will continue to develop the bond they have in one way or another when they're this close. It's hard to catch up with that history. It's not out of line to want them to be less close but it's a tough line to walk when there's kids involved.
posted by Bunglegirl at 7:31 PM on January 29, 2024 [1 favorite]
posted by Bunglegirl at 7:31 PM on January 29, 2024 [1 favorite]
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But it sounds like he's *really* getting the better end of that deal, so I can see why he might be reluctant to do that. I think you can ask, and you'll have to see what he says, but you may have to accept that this is what the situation is unless and until he's willing and able to actually pay child support.
posted by Stacey at 12:57 PM on January 28, 2024 [18 favorites]