What should I do about my parents' baffling response to my pronouns?
October 22, 2023 1:56 PM Subscribe
I have been going by they/them for a while now. My parents just told me that they hate the idea of the singular they so much that they have decided to from now on start using their own invented pronouns -- hey, hem, heir -- for all situations where a gender-neutral pronoun is needed. I am frankly unsure how best to respond.
I pointed out that the singular they has a long history in English and that using "they are" for an individual is not particular different from using "you are" for an individual. They agreed with both statements and repeated their intent to use pronouns of their own invention. I'm a bit at a loss. They're clearly trying not to misgender me. They claim they're going to apply these pronouns generally. But... those aren't my pronouns.
Do I confront them directly about this -- which is not guaranteed to cause a horrible, screaming argument but certainly has the potential to do so? Do I let it go because they're octogenarians and their making an effort to meet me somewhere on this is worth something, even if has left me somewhat upset? Do I send them a link to a document explaining why using someone's preferred pronouns, whatever they may be, is the thoughtful and reasonable thing to do (and is there a good document I could use for this)? Or should my response be something else entirely?
I pointed out that the singular they has a long history in English and that using "they are" for an individual is not particular different from using "you are" for an individual. They agreed with both statements and repeated their intent to use pronouns of their own invention. I'm a bit at a loss. They're clearly trying not to misgender me. They claim they're going to apply these pronouns generally. But... those aren't my pronouns.
Do I confront them directly about this -- which is not guaranteed to cause a horrible, screaming argument but certainly has the potential to do so? Do I let it go because they're octogenarians and their making an effort to meet me somewhere on this is worth something, even if has left me somewhat upset? Do I send them a link to a document explaining why using someone's preferred pronouns, whatever they may be, is the thoughtful and reasonable thing to do (and is there a good document I could use for this)? Or should my response be something else entirely?
Do either of your parents or someone in your close family go by a name other than the one on their birth certificate? Mike instead of Michael, Cathy instead of Mary Catherine? Or the other way around, cringe when they're called Liz instead of Elizabeth? That's a parallel that they've certainly come across many times in their long lives, and that they hopefully have a more empathetic understanding of. Your pronoun is they just like Elizabeth is called Elizabeth. It would be disrespectful and hurtful to use anything other than the correct one.
posted by phunniemee at 2:19 PM on October 22, 2023 [15 favorites]
posted by phunniemee at 2:19 PM on October 22, 2023 [15 favorites]
They're clearly trying not to misgender me.
Aren’t they? I’m just going by years of listening to Danny Lavery’s podcasts, where generally the advice is that family who go “oh no, we’re fiiine with the idea generally, there’s JUST THIS LITTLE THING we’re going to laser focus on to deny your wish” is shitty, disingenuous behaviour.
[I’ll leave the “how to react” to others as I’m… probably too hot-headed to give sensible advice, and tbf they’re in their 80es, but still.]
posted by ClarissaWAM at 2:25 PM on October 22, 2023 [38 favorites]
Aren’t they? I’m just going by years of listening to Danny Lavery’s podcasts, where generally the advice is that family who go “oh no, we’re fiiine with the idea generally, there’s JUST THIS LITTLE THING we’re going to laser focus on to deny your wish” is shitty, disingenuous behaviour.
[I’ll leave the “how to react” to others as I’m… probably too hot-headed to give sensible advice, and tbf they’re in their 80es, but still.]
posted by ClarissaWAM at 2:25 PM on October 22, 2023 [38 favorites]
"Beloved parents, if you're truly going to apply these [disrespectful, insulting, bullshit] made-up pronouns *generally*, you'll offend more people than just me, your allegedly beloved child."
I can't tell if this is supreme passive-aggressiveness or, like, a neon sign reading Check Carbon Monoxide Levels.
A professor's long essay at Harper's, from 2020.
A parent's approach ["The pronouns we use reflect our level of respect for the person we are speaking with or about"] at Detroit Free Press, 2018
PFLAG resource page
posted by Iris Gambol at 2:27 PM on October 22, 2023 [10 favorites]
I can't tell if this is supreme passive-aggressiveness or, like, a neon sign reading Check Carbon Monoxide Levels.
A professor's long essay at Harper's, from 2020.
A parent's approach ["The pronouns we use reflect our level of respect for the person we are speaking with or about"] at Detroit Free Press, 2018
PFLAG resource page
posted by Iris Gambol at 2:27 PM on October 22, 2023 [10 favorites]
They’re having a proxy argument for something else I think. It’s maybe about control. Aging at that end of it losing control, accepting your wishes is losing control. They’re trying to maintain control through grammar.
So I think you can say (gently or not), hey, that doesn’t work well for me, guys. I love you and I’m not sure how many more years we have together and what I want is for you to know me and for us to be together honestly and for real. This isn’t about grammar, it is about our relationship. I am directly asking you to honour my wishes about this.
I wouldn’t try to send evidence or documents because this is something you are just asking for as yourself. It’s just a simple courtesy. If they won’t do it, it’s about them.
posted by warriorqueen at 2:29 PM on October 22, 2023 [53 favorites]
So I think you can say (gently or not), hey, that doesn’t work well for me, guys. I love you and I’m not sure how many more years we have together and what I want is for you to know me and for us to be together honestly and for real. This isn’t about grammar, it is about our relationship. I am directly asking you to honour my wishes about this.
I wouldn’t try to send evidence or documents because this is something you are just asking for as yourself. It’s just a simple courtesy. If they won’t do it, it’s about them.
posted by warriorqueen at 2:29 PM on October 22, 2023 [53 favorites]
Call them by some slight variation of their name. Example: if his name is John, call him Tohn or somesuch. Or Tad instead of Dad, Tom instead of Mom, get the idea.
When they question or complain about this, simply look confused and say "Oh, I thought we were ignoring what people request to be called by, so I'm just doing the same."
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 2:29 PM on October 22, 2023 [18 favorites]
When they question or complain about this, simply look confused and say "Oh, I thought we were ignoring what people request to be called by, so I'm just doing the same."
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 2:29 PM on October 22, 2023 [18 favorites]
It makes sense that you'd feel upset - you asked them to do something to treat you well and with respect and they are doing ... not that. And not that wrapped up in some strange argument that pretends to be dispassionate and unobjectionable.
Can you tell them how this behavior makes you feel? Can you feel how you feel and figure out what boundaries you want to set? Absolutely!
Octogenarians and effort - - - I totally get feeling like, 'take what I can get' but it's absolutely reasonable to expect adults to treat you better, regardless of their age or history.
If sites or sources would take up some of the labor of having to break this down to them, that sounds helpful. But looking for a source that would prove enough to them that they should do what you asked them to do because it'd be a way to be loving .... that might not exist.
And you can absolutely feel however you feel. I'm sorry they're doing this.
posted by Geameade at 2:33 PM on October 22, 2023 [2 favorites]
Can you tell them how this behavior makes you feel? Can you feel how you feel and figure out what boundaries you want to set? Absolutely!
Octogenarians and effort - - - I totally get feeling like, 'take what I can get' but it's absolutely reasonable to expect adults to treat you better, regardless of their age or history.
If sites or sources would take up some of the labor of having to break this down to them, that sounds helpful. But looking for a source that would prove enough to them that they should do what you asked them to do because it'd be a way to be loving .... that might not exist.
And you can absolutely feel however you feel. I'm sorry they're doing this.
posted by Geameade at 2:33 PM on October 22, 2023 [2 favorites]
I am pretty darn good at not misgendering my grown kid (they/them) and I apologize when I mess up, but I recognize that I'm unusually flexible for someone my age (plus I taught English for a long time and know that pronouns are a lot more complex than people seem to think). It seems to cause actual physical pain for some of these people to use a person's preferred pronouns.
(I give credit to an acquaintance who when they saw a photo of my kid yesterday, did a quick swivel and referred to them as "him," which isn't right either, but at least they tried.)
I would suggest a diet of snark and mockery - referring to it as their "little grammar experiment" and inquiring occasionally how it's working out for them. Also tell them it's not as hard to change as they think it is. I say that because some people do not respond well to being told they are injuring someone else when it comes to grammar myths, but tolerant amusement has always been the most mighty weapon of offspring in the long run.
posted by Peach at 2:50 PM on October 22, 2023 [8 favorites]
(I give credit to an acquaintance who when they saw a photo of my kid yesterday, did a quick swivel and referred to them as "him," which isn't right either, but at least they tried.)
I would suggest a diet of snark and mockery - referring to it as their "little grammar experiment" and inquiring occasionally how it's working out for them. Also tell them it's not as hard to change as they think it is. I say that because some people do not respond well to being told they are injuring someone else when it comes to grammar myths, but tolerant amusement has always been the most mighty weapon of offspring in the long run.
posted by Peach at 2:50 PM on October 22, 2023 [8 favorites]
I agree with the consensus here that there’s deep passive aggression going on here. But the made-up words part is the most bizarre twist of all to me. How would you feel and how would they react to at least using one of the other off-the-shelf packages of non-binary pronouns like Ze/Zir/Zirs? Per/per/pers? I assume this is a no-go because their goal is actually to be petty but worth a shot maybe?
posted by Skwirl at 2:55 PM on October 22, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by Skwirl at 2:55 PM on October 22, 2023 [2 favorites]
I guess I would ask them what their goal is here. Are they trying to communicate clearly? Because this isn't it. No one else is going to understand what they're saying without an explanation, every time. I'd be surprised if they were able to keep it up for more than a day, if that. Singular they/them is correct and natural- most people use it all the time without even thinking*- whereas inventing vocabulary that no one else has heard of at all is much harder to put into regular rotation.
If they say "We just like these made up words better" then I'd go ahead and start using some new made up words for them. Not to be vindictive, but to demonstrate how not-good it feels (at the bare minimum) to be called something that doesn't feel like you. Stick with it as long as they stick with this nonsense. I'm trying to give them the benefit of the doubt per your description but I tend to believe this leans toward trying to get you to stop letting them know your pronouns are they/them.
*and some of them believe that they do not actually use it because it's so instinctive!
posted by oneirodynia at 3:22 PM on October 22, 2023 [2 favorites]
If they say "We just like these made up words better" then I'd go ahead and start using some new made up words for them. Not to be vindictive, but to demonstrate how not-good it feels (at the bare minimum) to be called something that doesn't feel like you. Stick with it as long as they stick with this nonsense. I'm trying to give them the benefit of the doubt per your description but I tend to believe this leans toward trying to get you to stop letting them know your pronouns are they/them.
*and some of them believe that they do not actually use it because it's so instinctive!
posted by oneirodynia at 3:22 PM on October 22, 2023 [2 favorites]
I suppose one other consideration is that people on the right bristle about pronoun use- maybe they have friends that give them a hard time when they use they/them and your parents want to avoid that, rather than confronting the difficult people.
posted by oneirodynia at 3:27 PM on October 22, 2023
posted by oneirodynia at 3:27 PM on October 22, 2023
I like phunniemee’s analogy, but I’d take it a step further.
Take your own personal gender identity out of it completely, and let’s say your name is Elizabeth or Richard. These names have conventional nicknames like Beth, Betty, Liz, Rich, Ricky, Dick, etc. Maybe your family has called you Betty or Ricky all your life, but you’ve matured and those names don’t fit who you are anymore, so you’ve chosen to use a less-common but still very much conventionally accepted nickname like Libby or Ritchie. It makes absolutely no sense for your parents to agree to not call you Elizabeth, Betty, Richard, or Ricky anymore but to refuse your preferred name and instead make up a completely new name like Zabby or Char.
posted by ellenaim at 3:31 PM on October 22, 2023 [2 favorites]
Take your own personal gender identity out of it completely, and let’s say your name is Elizabeth or Richard. These names have conventional nicknames like Beth, Betty, Liz, Rich, Ricky, Dick, etc. Maybe your family has called you Betty or Ricky all your life, but you’ve matured and those names don’t fit who you are anymore, so you’ve chosen to use a less-common but still very much conventionally accepted nickname like Libby or Ritchie. It makes absolutely no sense for your parents to agree to not call you Elizabeth, Betty, Richard, or Ricky anymore but to refuse your preferred name and instead make up a completely new name like Zabby or Char.
posted by ellenaim at 3:31 PM on October 22, 2023 [2 favorites]
I... kind of want to let them try? Like, oh, let's have a conversation about my friend whose gender you don't know! Let's discuss the how the rules of a game would apply to a hypothetical player! Unborn babies, new neighbors, job applicants... so many excellent opportunities for them to demonstrate their commitment to this neopronoun of theirs.
But oh, all of that's really hard? And they actually continuously mess up and use the pronouns they've spent however-many decades practicing, including singular they/them? Well then.
(Love, a neopronoun-user who generally just tells people to call me by name instead of watching them flail.)
posted by teremala at 3:39 PM on October 22, 2023 [14 favorites]
But oh, all of that's really hard? And they actually continuously mess up and use the pronouns they've spent however-many decades practicing, including singular they/them? Well then.
(Love, a neopronoun-user who generally just tells people to call me by name instead of watching them flail.)
posted by teremala at 3:39 PM on October 22, 2023 [14 favorites]
Step into your power.
Octogenarians probably need you more than you need them. Parents used to controlling everything can have a hard time when kids do something they don’t approve of and can’t change. Stick to your guns. They need to learn to take feedback and consider doing things the kids way, might as well learn the behaviour now before the issue is about taking their car keys away and moving them into a home.
Your leverage is very simple. You’re not going to want to spend time with people that disrespect you by disregarding your choice of pronouns. Identify the consequences for their behaviour and follow through. Do give a pass on errors, slips, and lapses though, especially if there is cognitive decline.
posted by shock muppet at 4:03 PM on October 22, 2023 [9 favorites]
Octogenarians probably need you more than you need them. Parents used to controlling everything can have a hard time when kids do something they don’t approve of and can’t change. Stick to your guns. They need to learn to take feedback and consider doing things the kids way, might as well learn the behaviour now before the issue is about taking their car keys away and moving them into a home.
Your leverage is very simple. You’re not going to want to spend time with people that disrespect you by disregarding your choice of pronouns. Identify the consequences for their behaviour and follow through. Do give a pass on errors, slips, and lapses though, especially if there is cognitive decline.
posted by shock muppet at 4:03 PM on October 22, 2023 [9 favorites]
Would it work for you to meet them half-way? My thought is that you could say, "I'm glad that you are willing to recognize that I don't want to use gendered pronouns but making up your own feels like you're making fun of me. There are some other nongendered pronouns that actually being used in real people in my community. If you don't want to use the singular they/them, I would be Ok with ze/zir. No harder to remember than your made up one and doesn't affront your sense of grammar."
That will very quickly show you if they are willing to try but their brains is getting really stuck on the singular they/them or there is something else going on.
I know these are not YOUR pronouns of choice. This option only works if you would feel OK with them using a different but at least respectful and nongendered pronouns. Please ignore if it is really important that they use the set on nongendered pronouns that you have chosen for yourself.
posted by metahawk at 4:31 PM on October 22, 2023 [4 favorites]
That will very quickly show you if they are willing to try but their brains is getting really stuck on the singular they/them or there is something else going on.
I know these are not YOUR pronouns of choice. This option only works if you would feel OK with them using a different but at least respectful and nongendered pronouns. Please ignore if it is really important that they use the set on nongendered pronouns that you have chosen for yourself.
posted by metahawk at 4:31 PM on October 22, 2023 [4 favorites]
I think keeping it short and direct may be worth a try. "My gender and my pronouns aren't up for debate, any more than if I were a cis man or woman or a trans man or woman. Calling me something other than what I tell you I am means you either don't believe me, or you don't respect who I am enough to even try. If I woke up tomorrow and called you (made-up first name), you would think, Did KyraDemon forget who I am? That's what it feels like."
posted by nakedmolerats at 4:44 PM on October 22, 2023 [5 favorites]
posted by nakedmolerats at 4:44 PM on October 22, 2023 [5 favorites]
Ugh, I'm sorry. Only you know how you feel and whether it will work best with them to draw a line or to try to explain further. I feel I might be giving them too much credit, but I just sat here trying to remember the transition to being able to easily use this for NB people in my life. (I used it out of respect but didn't deeply "get it" at first). What really helped me was noticing how often I used the singular they/them. That was so helpful. Also, I don't know if if they've considered what being misgendered feels like such as by remembering back to a time someone called them by the wrong pronouns or when they didn't like hearing themselves referred to by pronouns. (This isn't to say that you need to be the one to explain all of this to them - they can respect your wishes and go figure it out on their own. Just sharing some of the concepts that were helpful to me in learning all this.) I guess a final concept that you or someone else could introduce to them would be that sometimes the best way to get the hang of something is just to do it. That's one of the places where they're really going wrong. It might seem awkward to them at first but they can do it anyway and it will probably click for them soon.
posted by slidell at 5:01 PM on October 22, 2023
posted by slidell at 5:01 PM on October 22, 2023
Rereading, I see that they already agreed that singular they is in common usage so my comment is probably not useful, sorry. Wishing you the best in navigating this nonsense.
posted by slidell at 5:08 PM on October 22, 2023
posted by slidell at 5:08 PM on October 22, 2023
I don't think you can appeal to reason here, and agree with @capricorn that an emotional appeal may be more effective.
The next time your parents do this, stop the conversation and say something like, "I know you are trying to adjust my new pronouns; when you use 'hey, hem, heir," it makes me feel uncared for, unseen for who I am, sad, unhappy. I know you don't want me to feel those things, so I would appreciate it if you could just use 'they/them.'" If they say they can't, then I think you can say, "Then I'll need to step away from this conversation for now" or, "this is upsetting and I need a moment," and leave/hang up/go talk to someone else.
Don't argue, don't debate, simply remove yourself from a situation that is hurting you. You don't have to cut off contact or stop talking to them altogether, just do this anytime they do this. They can learn.
posted by brookeb at 5:09 PM on October 22, 2023 [6 favorites]
The next time your parents do this, stop the conversation and say something like, "I know you are trying to adjust my new pronouns; when you use 'hey, hem, heir," it makes me feel uncared for, unseen for who I am, sad, unhappy. I know you don't want me to feel those things, so I would appreciate it if you could just use 'they/them.'" If they say they can't, then I think you can say, "Then I'll need to step away from this conversation for now" or, "this is upsetting and I need a moment," and leave/hang up/go talk to someone else.
Don't argue, don't debate, simply remove yourself from a situation that is hurting you. You don't have to cut off contact or stop talking to them altogether, just do this anytime they do this. They can learn.
posted by brookeb at 5:09 PM on October 22, 2023 [6 favorites]
It's hard to know what this is about without knowing more about your parents, their political leanings, general levels of stubbornness, general tendency to not take you seriously, rigidity of temperaments, tendency to see respect as a one-way street, media/social media diet, etc.
But it reminds me of when my husband and I are talking about random housekeeping stuff, and our four-year-old will start shouting random nonsense words like "bup." She thinks it's a game.
They're behaving like attention-seeking four year olds. They want control and to ruffle your feathers.
The important thing is to not reward the behavior.
If you have it in you, you can respond compassionately, "They/them seems to really get you worked up. Do you want to talk about that?"
Or you can say, "Interesting, but I'm they, not bup." Keep calmly correcting until the game becomes boring for them.
posted by champers at 5:11 PM on October 22, 2023 [4 favorites]
But it reminds me of when my husband and I are talking about random housekeeping stuff, and our four-year-old will start shouting random nonsense words like "bup." She thinks it's a game.
They're behaving like attention-seeking four year olds. They want control and to ruffle your feathers.
The important thing is to not reward the behavior.
If you have it in you, you can respond compassionately, "They/them seems to really get you worked up. Do you want to talk about that?"
Or you can say, "Interesting, but I'm they, not bup." Keep calmly correcting until the game becomes boring for them.
posted by champers at 5:11 PM on October 22, 2023 [4 favorites]
Did they say why they hate the singular they so much? Maybe it would help to explain to them that this is the way the English language has developed at this point - there is no commonly accepted gender-neutral singular pronoun at this point other than "they/them" that people are using. That's the way language is sometimes.
posted by wondermouse at 5:14 PM on October 22, 2023
posted by wondermouse at 5:14 PM on October 22, 2023
What jumps out at me is that their invented genderless pronouns all have plausible deniability as such: they could easily be read as mumbled or slightly mangled pronunciations of gendered pronouns which, if they intend to use them when talking to other octogenarians - especially Fox-addled octogenarians - they might think will let them sidestep a bit of conflict.
So it might not be cussedness, merely cowardice.
posted by flabdablet at 5:33 PM on October 22, 2023 [5 favorites]
So it might not be cussedness, merely cowardice.
posted by flabdablet at 5:33 PM on October 22, 2023 [5 favorites]
I’m sorry you’re having to deal with this! It feels aggressive, and not passively. Like, they just decided to inform you of this and will be going on their merry way? Crappy behavior, no matter how you spin it.
Unfortunately though you can’t control other people. I think wasting energy on trying to change what they say when you are not around is not worth it. If they are using these different pronouns in conversation with their peers, they are going to get more flak and confusion from those other people than if they used the singular they. If they are known contrarians among their peers they might even be proud about that. Either way you can’t be there for those conversations.
What you can do is insist they speak to you as you have asked to be spoken to. Tell them that you don’t care if they stutter over your pronouns or go back and correct themselves; that this is important to you and you need them to respect your identity wholly. If your parents are lifelong learners, you could send them links to essays or books about the singular they and different neopronouns throughout history, though reiterate that this is because they seem interested in neopronouns, and that you still go by they/them. If they are the type to bristle at this as though it were an imposition, don’t do that. Just make your request clear, and ask that they keep it up around you.
If this pushes them into a fight with you, then you will know more clearly where you stand with them. But chances are that if your relationship is otherwise copacetic that the difficulty of keeping up these two modes will be too hard and they will default to the one that has the most consistency and ease - your actual pronouns. Don’t expend energy on trying to change their behavior when you are not there, just keep it up when you are.
posted by Mizu at 6:35 PM on October 22, 2023 [1 favorite]
Unfortunately though you can’t control other people. I think wasting energy on trying to change what they say when you are not around is not worth it. If they are using these different pronouns in conversation with their peers, they are going to get more flak and confusion from those other people than if they used the singular they. If they are known contrarians among their peers they might even be proud about that. Either way you can’t be there for those conversations.
What you can do is insist they speak to you as you have asked to be spoken to. Tell them that you don’t care if they stutter over your pronouns or go back and correct themselves; that this is important to you and you need them to respect your identity wholly. If your parents are lifelong learners, you could send them links to essays or books about the singular they and different neopronouns throughout history, though reiterate that this is because they seem interested in neopronouns, and that you still go by they/them. If they are the type to bristle at this as though it were an imposition, don’t do that. Just make your request clear, and ask that they keep it up around you.
If this pushes them into a fight with you, then you will know more clearly where you stand with them. But chances are that if your relationship is otherwise copacetic that the difficulty of keeping up these two modes will be too hard and they will default to the one that has the most consistency and ease - your actual pronouns. Don’t expend energy on trying to change their behavior when you are not there, just keep it up when you are.
posted by Mizu at 6:35 PM on October 22, 2023 [1 favorite]
"You know what's so interesting, I read somewhere that when people are experiencing cognitive issues or brain function decline, they have a really hard time with new vocabulary and ideas. They will often pretend to reject words and ideas and say things like "oh that's new-fangled nonsense" but really they're just saying that to save face. The actual problem is that their brain isn't physically able to learn something new. It's actually a sign of brain trouble."
I would say that, in a casual moment when everyone is listening, ideally with guests around. Use a mild, non-accusatory, even empathetic tone, and don't tie it into any other topics of discussion. Just share an interesting fact you read (because you did read it, right in the previous paragraph). Not at all pointedly related to anyone seated at your table.
posted by nouvelle-personne at 7:42 PM on October 22, 2023 [11 favorites]
I would say that, in a casual moment when everyone is listening, ideally with guests around. Use a mild, non-accusatory, even empathetic tone, and don't tie it into any other topics of discussion. Just share an interesting fact you read (because you did read it, right in the previous paragraph). Not at all pointedly related to anyone seated at your table.
posted by nouvelle-personne at 7:42 PM on October 22, 2023 [11 favorites]
I wonder, if you spoke them individually and with great sincerity, and asked, "Mom/Dad, have you noticed any changes in Dad's/Mom's memory? I'm a little concerned! We've talked about my preferred pronouns a bunch of times, and (s)he doesn't seem to be able to remember. Should we be worried?" Perhaps pride will succeed where compassion has failed.
posted by kate4914 at 7:47 PM on October 22, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by kate4914 at 7:47 PM on October 22, 2023 [3 favorites]
Do I send them a link to a document explaining why using someone's preferred pronouns
I'm not sure what terminology you're using with your parents, but I think it works better to simply say "pronouns" instead of "preferred pronouns". Preferred implies an option that could be rejected under certain circumstances - ie, I have a preference not to eat oysters, but if my parents served them, I would eat them. Simply stating what your pronouns are may send the message to them that they are not optional.
posted by saeculorum at 8:05 PM on October 22, 2023 [4 favorites]
I'm not sure what terminology you're using with your parents, but I think it works better to simply say "pronouns" instead of "preferred pronouns". Preferred implies an option that could be rejected under certain circumstances - ie, I have a preference not to eat oysters, but if my parents served them, I would eat them. Simply stating what your pronouns are may send the message to them that they are not optional.
posted by saeculorum at 8:05 PM on October 22, 2023 [4 favorites]
I (non binary) am in a situation that seems similar to this. A close family member who I have a fairly good relationship with otherwise, but who keeps misgendering me.
I'm very tempted to meet this head on, with arguments and explanation, but so far the thing that has actually worked is to point it out in the moment in a neutral way that still shows that this is not a joke for me.
Just stop the flow of conversation "please don't do that" or "yeah but I'm not (pronoun)" and then move on with some other topic.
You don't have to do it every single time, that would be exhausting, but just choose your moment.
Telling them outside of the moment that they're upsetting you risks getting into "yeah but that's on you for having ridiculous emotions" arguments. Showing them in a low key, tap dripping, repeated way might get through.
(Also I'd be very surprised if they actually use these neo pronouns. They'll probably just be good old fashioned misgendering you which ugh)
posted by Zumbador at 9:07 PM on October 22, 2023 [6 favorites]
I'm very tempted to meet this head on, with arguments and explanation, but so far the thing that has actually worked is to point it out in the moment in a neutral way that still shows that this is not a joke for me.
Just stop the flow of conversation "please don't do that" or "yeah but I'm not (pronoun)" and then move on with some other topic.
You don't have to do it every single time, that would be exhausting, but just choose your moment.
Telling them outside of the moment that they're upsetting you risks getting into "yeah but that's on you for having ridiculous emotions" arguments. Showing them in a low key, tap dripping, repeated way might get through.
(Also I'd be very surprised if they actually use these neo pronouns. They'll probably just be good old fashioned misgendering you which ugh)
posted by Zumbador at 9:07 PM on October 22, 2023 [6 favorites]
I call bullshit on their cute little experiment. Learning to use made-up words is at least as difficult as using the pronoun you've asked them to use.
posted by abraxasaxarba at 9:09 PM on October 22, 2023 [7 favorites]
posted by abraxasaxarba at 9:09 PM on October 22, 2023 [7 favorites]
People use singular "they" all the time. Even if your parents don't and are scrupulous about using "he" or "he or she" or "one" in situations when the gender of the person is unknown (e.g., "Someone left his or her keys on the table"), they hear singular "they" all the fucking time, because everyone else uses it (e.g., "Someone left their keys on the table"). You can tactically choose to be gentle in how you approach this, but their brains are perfectly capable of using and understanding singular "they" because it's a completely established and commonly used construction in everyday language. Don't get stuck in any argument that boils down to their brains being too old for new-fangled language, both because they're suggesting using new-fangled language and because singular "they" is not new-fangled language.
posted by lapis at 9:16 PM on October 22, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by lapis at 9:16 PM on October 22, 2023 [1 favorite]
I diverge from most of the responses here
I would assume they are acting in what they believe is good faith and your response should not be defensive, dismissive or aggressive.
"Hey Mom and Dad, I really appreciate your efforts at getting pronouns correct. However, I am not sure you understand what is the accepted norm these days. The way to explain it is that YOU get to choose YOUR own pronouns. If you choose the ones you created, I will gladly call you by them. As you know, for the last while, I have chosen, they/them. When I was young and I called you John, you nicely insisted I call you Dad instead. That was the last time I called you John. When using pronouns to refer to me, please use they/them. I will also answer to "favorite child" (if they have a sense of humor). I appreciate that everyone sometimes makes mistakes. But, I would appreciate it and take it as a sign of your respect if you use they/them. Of course, I will use with you any pronoun of your choosing.
I think your parents are old school and are at once both trying to get it and mocking the use of pronouns other than he /her she/him I/we.
posted by JohnnyGunn at 9:34 PM on October 22, 2023 [7 favorites]
I would assume they are acting in what they believe is good faith and your response should not be defensive, dismissive or aggressive.
"Hey Mom and Dad, I really appreciate your efforts at getting pronouns correct. However, I am not sure you understand what is the accepted norm these days. The way to explain it is that YOU get to choose YOUR own pronouns. If you choose the ones you created, I will gladly call you by them. As you know, for the last while, I have chosen, they/them. When I was young and I called you John, you nicely insisted I call you Dad instead. That was the last time I called you John. When using pronouns to refer to me, please use they/them. I will also answer to "favorite child" (if they have a sense of humor). I appreciate that everyone sometimes makes mistakes. But, I would appreciate it and take it as a sign of your respect if you use they/them. Of course, I will use with you any pronoun of your choosing.
I think your parents are old school and are at once both trying to get it and mocking the use of pronouns other than he /her she/him I/we.
posted by JohnnyGunn at 9:34 PM on October 22, 2023 [7 favorites]
I was strongly knee-jerk against the idea of an individual using “they/them” when I first heard about it. (I have a history of being uptight about grammar in general). Years later, I’m now a they/them person.
Can you do any begging for favors for them to do it your way for a month, and if they do it your way and still hate it after a month, try to compromise to their neo-pronouns?
A lot of this does depend on your relationship with them. I’m not super close with my family, so I’m pretty ok with having low standards for their behavior. I know that the people who care to be part of my daily life respect my name/pronouns.
posted by itesser at 11:50 PM on October 22, 2023 [1 favorite]
Can you do any begging for favors for them to do it your way for a month, and if they do it your way and still hate it after a month, try to compromise to their neo-pronouns?
A lot of this does depend on your relationship with them. I’m not super close with my family, so I’m pretty ok with having low standards for their behavior. I know that the people who care to be part of my daily life respect my name/pronouns.
posted by itesser at 11:50 PM on October 22, 2023 [1 favorite]
As someone who prefers the neopronouns ze/hir for myself (I say ‘prefers’ on purpose because hardly anyone actually uses these for me and I also go by more conventional pronouns) - I’d add that it’s extremely unlikely that your parents are going to be able to actually use this set of weirdly externally imposed neopronouns. It takes serious work to learn a set of neopronouns to the level where they feel instinctive and natural to use in conversation. Even though I prefer ze/hir for myself for gender/aesthetic/political reasons, it’s not instinctive even for me yet and my husband (also trans) struggles with the grammar of them frequently by getting them mixed up with each other, ie using ze when they mean hir and hir when they mean ze. This is the kind of thing that happens when someone is confused by grammar by the way, not ‘oh I’m confused, I guess I’d better revert to the pronouns associated with this person’s assigned gender at birth, because grammar.’ If they/them truly makes your parents feel weird because of their incorrect ideas about grammar, then this neopronouns thing will be literally impossible for them to do without huge pauses and forever sounding like they’re putting weird air quotes around these “weird pronouns” for your “weird pronoun thing”.
All of that is kind of beside the point because these aren’t your pronouns, but I just wanted to point out that this is incredibly unlikely to ‘work’ even on their terms - which are bizarre, rude, dismissive and passive aggressive. It’s like saying ‘oh your name confuses me so I’m just going to call you Brenda’ (or I guess in this case more like ‘Breinda’).
If you’ve already been down the route of educating them about the use of the singular they and making all these analogies, I would advise just saying ‘those aren’t my pronouns’ every time you hear them tripping over themselves to avoid saying they/them and treating it more or less as you would when they misgender you - leave, threaten to leave, correct endlessly, refuse to respond, call them Brenda - whatever has been your most effective/least painful strategy there before they introduced this weird new twist on the ways they’re planning to disrespect your pronouns.
posted by chives at 2:15 AM on October 23, 2023 [7 favorites]
All of that is kind of beside the point because these aren’t your pronouns, but I just wanted to point out that this is incredibly unlikely to ‘work’ even on their terms - which are bizarre, rude, dismissive and passive aggressive. It’s like saying ‘oh your name confuses me so I’m just going to call you Brenda’ (or I guess in this case more like ‘Breinda’).
If you’ve already been down the route of educating them about the use of the singular they and making all these analogies, I would advise just saying ‘those aren’t my pronouns’ every time you hear them tripping over themselves to avoid saying they/them and treating it more or less as you would when they misgender you - leave, threaten to leave, correct endlessly, refuse to respond, call them Brenda - whatever has been your most effective/least painful strategy there before they introduced this weird new twist on the ways they’re planning to disrespect your pronouns.
posted by chives at 2:15 AM on October 23, 2023 [7 favorites]
Also if you don’t already have strategies for when they misgender you (the examples I listed above were a bit flippant and could be useful in some situations but less useful in others) then come up with some and apply them here. If you really want to prioritise the relationship, maybe saying something along the lines of:
‘I understand that you’re trying not to use ‘she’ or ‘he’ (or whatever your old pronouns were) but I use they/them pronouns for a reason, when people get this right it makes me feel like I’m being treated with respect and when people get it wrong it makes me feel disrespected. It’s rude to call people things that they’ve asked you not to call them. I don’t feel good about these new pronouns you’ve invented, so please stop using them for me.’ Once you’ve said that clearly, in future you can say ‘We’ve talked about this, it hurts my feelings when you do this and I need you to try to get my pronouns right.’
If they don’t respond well to any of this, it’s up to you what you’re willing to put up with, unfortunately you can’t get people to be respectful by using the exact right words to ask for respect, all you can do is make sure you’ve been clear. Boiling it down to the concept of ‘rudeness’ is a good tactic with older people usually, provided they’re genuinely not trying to be rude on purpose, which sometimes they very much are!
posted by chives at 2:32 AM on October 23, 2023 [1 favorite]
‘I understand that you’re trying not to use ‘she’ or ‘he’ (or whatever your old pronouns were) but I use they/them pronouns for a reason, when people get this right it makes me feel like I’m being treated with respect and when people get it wrong it makes me feel disrespected. It’s rude to call people things that they’ve asked you not to call them. I don’t feel good about these new pronouns you’ve invented, so please stop using them for me.’ Once you’ve said that clearly, in future you can say ‘We’ve talked about this, it hurts my feelings when you do this and I need you to try to get my pronouns right.’
If they don’t respond well to any of this, it’s up to you what you’re willing to put up with, unfortunately you can’t get people to be respectful by using the exact right words to ask for respect, all you can do is make sure you’ve been clear. Boiling it down to the concept of ‘rudeness’ is a good tactic with older people usually, provided they’re genuinely not trying to be rude on purpose, which sometimes they very much are!
posted by chives at 2:32 AM on October 23, 2023 [1 favorite]
I was in an eerily similar situation (complete with invented substitute pronouns) and what I will say is that, in hindsight, I wasted ten years avoiding the emotional conversation and wish I had been strong enough to have it earlier. By the time we did, their passive-aggressive resistance had hardened into resentment and a solid core of trans-hatred that (I imagine) they were initially too ashamed to admit they applied to their own family. We don't talk anymore. The outcome might have been the same ten years ago but even then I think I would have rather known the ugly truth sooner.
posted by range at 4:43 AM on October 23, 2023 [5 favorites]
posted by range at 4:43 AM on October 23, 2023 [5 favorites]
When my middle child shifted to they/them my then 92 year old father with dementia was still able to get it. He was remarkable but still. I think neutrally correcting your parents and trying the suggestion of using different names for them to see if that helps them get it makes sense. And you can then end coversations where they misgender you - that carrot/stick combo might work better. The made-up word thing is just bizarre.
posted by leslies at 6:43 AM on October 23, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by leslies at 6:43 AM on October 23, 2023 [2 favorites]
Do they use their invented pronouns when cousin Lee asks after you? I doubt it. Be clear with them that the pronouns do actually matter, that their invented pronouns are poor communication, and that it's not okay with you and damages the relationship. Ask them to be allies. This is one of the ways allies show that they are on board.
I'm in my 60s and find it difficult to not use a deadname; it requires a certain brain agility, have only slipped a couple times and not with the trans person present. My point is that pronouns and names can be difficult, and understanding is reasonable. Refusal to use grammatical preferred pronouns is not.
posted by theora55 at 7:00 AM on October 23, 2023
I'm in my 60s and find it difficult to not use a deadname; it requires a certain brain agility, have only slipped a couple times and not with the trans person present. My point is that pronouns and names can be difficult, and understanding is reasonable. Refusal to use grammatical preferred pronouns is not.
posted by theora55 at 7:00 AM on October 23, 2023
They’re having a proxy argument for something else I think. It’s maybe about control. Aging at that end of it losing control, accepting your wishes is losing control. They’re trying to maintain control through grammar.
As are you, I would point out.
A few questions: How are your friends may be dealing with your request? And your siblings? Well, I should hope. But your parents? How old and how stuck in their ways are they? Have you considered that you may be making a bigger ask of them than any one else?
People talk about love like it's some fuzzy warm bean bag chair into which we can sink and nod off. But, it's not. It's hard hard work. My own belief is that our task in life is learning to be as kind as we can be to other people. Which never like sledding downhill on freshly fallen snow.
And family? Family are the people who can say things to you that get them punched out if they spoke like that to strangers at the mall. Consider murder statistics: who is most likely to kill you? Someone you know. Friends, family and partners are high on the list. And where will you most likely get killed? Your house or theirs. Believe me, I know. In my freshman year of college I learned fast not to talk about my childhood because I found it could make people cry. It was not the best fuel for an all night gab fest.
So, your pronouns are important to you. Life changingly so. And yet at the same time you are scaring your parents whose opinions matter to you. I am not a professional but maybe you should consider consulting one such rather than casting your bread upon the waters of an internet forum.
tldr: see also the myth of Sysiphus and talk to someone who really knows what they are talking about because this is too serious a matter not to do otherwise. If it's important enough to ask here, by all means do ask a well trained expert.
I wish you and yours all the best.
posted by y2karl at 9:00 AM on October 23, 2023 [1 favorite]
As are you, I would point out.
A few questions: How are your friends may be dealing with your request? And your siblings? Well, I should hope. But your parents? How old and how stuck in their ways are they? Have you considered that you may be making a bigger ask of them than any one else?
People talk about love like it's some fuzzy warm bean bag chair into which we can sink and nod off. But, it's not. It's hard hard work. My own belief is that our task in life is learning to be as kind as we can be to other people. Which never like sledding downhill on freshly fallen snow.
And family? Family are the people who can say things to you that get them punched out if they spoke like that to strangers at the mall. Consider murder statistics: who is most likely to kill you? Someone you know. Friends, family and partners are high on the list. And where will you most likely get killed? Your house or theirs. Believe me, I know. In my freshman year of college I learned fast not to talk about my childhood because I found it could make people cry. It was not the best fuel for an all night gab fest.
So, your pronouns are important to you. Life changingly so. And yet at the same time you are scaring your parents whose opinions matter to you. I am not a professional but maybe you should consider consulting one such rather than casting your bread upon the waters of an internet forum.
tldr: see also the myth of Sysiphus and talk to someone who really knows what they are talking about because this is too serious a matter not to do otherwise. If it's important enough to ask here, by all means do ask a well trained expert.
I wish you and yours all the best.
posted by y2karl at 9:00 AM on October 23, 2023 [1 favorite]
But your parents? How old and how stuck in their ways are they? Have you considered that you may be making a bigger ask of them than any one else?
If the parents were just refusing, then this argument might have merit. They are not.
Parents often really do think they have ownership over their child's name so even absent potential transphobia this might be an issue. As with others, I think you should make an emotional appeal by telling them the truth: it upsets you that they won't even try to use they/them. Ask them to try in good faith.
posted by plonkee at 10:00 AM on October 23, 2023 [4 favorites]
If the parents were just refusing, then this argument might have merit. They are not.
Parents often really do think they have ownership over their child's name so even absent potential transphobia this might be an issue. As with others, I think you should make an emotional appeal by telling them the truth: it upsets you that they won't even try to use they/them. Ask them to try in good faith.
posted by plonkee at 10:00 AM on October 23, 2023 [4 favorites]
One thing they are not doing: saying "sure" then just not trying very hard, or avoiding using pronouns around you at all, or just doing what they want while saying what you want to hear.
This means you can trust them much much more than you can trust many people. It's a valuable relationship.
posted by amtho at 10:29 AM on October 23, 2023
This means you can trust them much much more than you can trust many people. It's a valuable relationship.
posted by amtho at 10:29 AM on October 23, 2023
I am fresh off a parent visit during which there was very conspicuous use of my name in nearly every case a pronoun would be warranted in order to avoid saying 'they' or 'them', so: solidarity, first off. Indignation (which I absolutely feel) aside, the lack of care from family is just really hurtful, especially when there are other people in your life who do value you enough to learn something new even if it's initially out of their comfort zone.
You've had the conversations. Your parents know what the deal is, and they are refusing to treat you with the respect of using your pronouns. (It's misgendering. Nobody would think this was acceptable if they decided that neighbor Ted was going to be Ed to them from now on. That's terribly rude and entitled behavior.) They are signaling that their comfort is more important to them than yours is--though truly this isn't even about comfort, as using pronouns they have invented out of thin air is considerably more mentally taxing than broadening the use of singular 'they'--so you have to be the person to look after your own comfort, which presumably does not involve screaming arguments. I think you have to figure out for yourself what your boundaries are, and then calmly enforce them. I don't know how likely it is that you'd be hearing yourself referred to in the third person on the phone, so assuming you're visiting in-person, that could look like giving one 'reminder'/correction (or however many you can/want to stomach) and then saying 'alright Mom, Dad, I'm not going to stick when you refuse to use my pronouns, I'll see you next time' and leaving. Rinse and repeat. They will ultimately have to either decide the pleasure of your company is worth a little effort or dig in and make it clear that whatever silly ass point they're trying to make is more important to them than the relationship. I hope the latter doesn't happen, but you deserve better treatment than what's currently on offer.
posted by wormtales at 10:58 AM on October 23, 2023 [5 favorites]
You've had the conversations. Your parents know what the deal is, and they are refusing to treat you with the respect of using your pronouns. (It's misgendering. Nobody would think this was acceptable if they decided that neighbor Ted was going to be Ed to them from now on. That's terribly rude and entitled behavior.) They are signaling that their comfort is more important to them than yours is--though truly this isn't even about comfort, as using pronouns they have invented out of thin air is considerably more mentally taxing than broadening the use of singular 'they'--so you have to be the person to look after your own comfort, which presumably does not involve screaming arguments. I think you have to figure out for yourself what your boundaries are, and then calmly enforce them. I don't know how likely it is that you'd be hearing yourself referred to in the third person on the phone, so assuming you're visiting in-person, that could look like giving one 'reminder'/correction (or however many you can/want to stomach) and then saying 'alright Mom, Dad, I'm not going to stick when you refuse to use my pronouns, I'll see you next time' and leaving. Rinse and repeat. They will ultimately have to either decide the pleasure of your company is worth a little effort or dig in and make it clear that whatever silly ass point they're trying to make is more important to them than the relationship. I hope the latter doesn't happen, but you deserve better treatment than what's currently on offer.
posted by wormtales at 10:58 AM on October 23, 2023 [5 favorites]
It is difficult. I am an old now, 60! who knew that was going to happen?
But I was raised with strict grammar rules.
My eldest was just here to visit, with their two trans partners. The one she has been with the longest, I do well with. The new one, yeah, I misgendered them twice, and felt bad about it. We were gaming, and my job is to facilitate, and I used "him". Ugh. I also deadnamed my other child a while back in the same situation.
But, every time my eldest used them or they as a singular, I had no idea what was happening.
Making up new pronouns is a bit weird, but I think we could all do with some new ones. Some of us will never get singular they's.
The fact that they are acknowledging your choices in some way, seems like a small win. But yes, it is a bit weird. That said, I can't imagine how my parents would have reacted to my kids gender choices. Good luck, you do you.
posted by Windopaene at 11:06 AM on October 23, 2023 [3 favorites]
But I was raised with strict grammar rules.
My eldest was just here to visit, with their two trans partners. The one she has been with the longest, I do well with. The new one, yeah, I misgendered them twice, and felt bad about it. We were gaming, and my job is to facilitate, and I used "him". Ugh. I also deadnamed my other child a while back in the same situation.
But, every time my eldest used them or they as a singular, I had no idea what was happening.
Making up new pronouns is a bit weird, but I think we could all do with some new ones. Some of us will never get singular they's.
The fact that they are acknowledging your choices in some way, seems like a small win. But yes, it is a bit weird. That said, I can't imagine how my parents would have reacted to my kids gender choices. Good luck, you do you.
posted by Windopaene at 11:06 AM on October 23, 2023 [3 favorites]
If my child (or anyone) needed me to use they/them, it would be a challenge ... and definitely not because of disrespect for my child (or anyone). Instead, it would be because in my head, "they/them" refers to plural. Is there a chance that the only reason your parents are not amenable to they/them is because to them it refers to plural, and so it is difficult for their brains to adapt to the usage of they/them in this new, singular way? Do they perhaps feel more comfortable saying that "they hate the idea of the singular" than admitting that their brain is having a hard time? I concur with Wondopaene's, "Making up new pronouns is a bit weird, but I think we could all do with some new ones. Some of us will never get singular they's."
posted by SageTrail at 12:16 PM on October 23, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by SageTrail at 12:16 PM on October 23, 2023 [1 favorite]
I agree with others who say that the substitute pronouns thing is very hard to assess without knowing a lot more about your parents and your relationship with them.
That said, while there may be oodles of examples of they/them in situations where those words would be understood (in ways that are effectively automatic) as referring to singular individuals, that doesn't mean that that's how people actually consciously understand the words. I count myself among them, even as a mid-left middle-age person. And I very much agree that asking people in their 80s to take words they have known for 80+ years and change their conscious meaning is asking a lot, at the very least, even assuming they are healthy as can be expected and there are no neural degeneration issues occurring.
One thing I don't agree with is comparisons to calling people by different names. "James" and "Ames" are names; they aren't words with specific meanings. Well, they originally had whatever meanings people ascribed to them, like some names supposedly meant "king" or "shining light" or whatever, but not in the sense of "when I say table I am referring to this object with a flat surface and multiple legs". And yes, some people name their kids River or Spring or whatever, and that could cause confusion depending on context...but in general, in the context of a person's name, we all understand the child is not actually a river or a spring. So the concept of calling the neighbor Ed when their name is Ted is totally different from taking an existing word and redefining what it consciously means to people, because Ed and Ted don't have other ingrained meanings.
With that context in mind, and reiterating what I said at the beginning about this being nearly impossible to assess from afar, I don't put stock in the assumption your parents are intending to do you wrong. You even said yourself you don't think they're intending to misgender you, and to me, that tells me you don't think they're just being jackasses and there isn't a history of problems that would obviously lead to this situation. Hand-waving and saying "Well of course they're trying to misgender you and you should be pissed as hell" (especially with this limited information) does not solve anything.
The best thing you can do is discuss it further directly with them. Explain your emotions and try to understand theirs. Involve a professional if you think it would help. It may actually just be about the words and nothing else.
posted by tubedogg at 12:53 PM on October 23, 2023 [1 favorite]
That said, while there may be oodles of examples of they/them in situations where those words would be understood (in ways that are effectively automatic) as referring to singular individuals, that doesn't mean that that's how people actually consciously understand the words. I count myself among them, even as a mid-left middle-age person. And I very much agree that asking people in their 80s to take words they have known for 80+ years and change their conscious meaning is asking a lot, at the very least, even assuming they are healthy as can be expected and there are no neural degeneration issues occurring.
One thing I don't agree with is comparisons to calling people by different names. "James" and "Ames" are names; they aren't words with specific meanings. Well, they originally had whatever meanings people ascribed to them, like some names supposedly meant "king" or "shining light" or whatever, but not in the sense of "when I say table I am referring to this object with a flat surface and multiple legs". And yes, some people name their kids River or Spring or whatever, and that could cause confusion depending on context...but in general, in the context of a person's name, we all understand the child is not actually a river or a spring. So the concept of calling the neighbor Ed when their name is Ted is totally different from taking an existing word and redefining what it consciously means to people, because Ed and Ted don't have other ingrained meanings.
With that context in mind, and reiterating what I said at the beginning about this being nearly impossible to assess from afar, I don't put stock in the assumption your parents are intending to do you wrong. You even said yourself you don't think they're intending to misgender you, and to me, that tells me you don't think they're just being jackasses and there isn't a history of problems that would obviously lead to this situation. Hand-waving and saying "Well of course they're trying to misgender you and you should be pissed as hell" (especially with this limited information) does not solve anything.
The best thing you can do is discuss it further directly with them. Explain your emotions and try to understand theirs. Involve a professional if you think it would help. It may actually just be about the words and nothing else.
posted by tubedogg at 12:53 PM on October 23, 2023 [1 favorite]
I too wish there was a commonly-embraced English option that meant "this person actively identifies with this pronoun" rather than always sharing they/them with "I don't know the correct pronouns for this person" and "I'm trying to conceal this person's identity." We don't have it. It doesn't matter how much I want it. It even doesn't matter that I can't personally get to the point of feeling okay about they/them for myself because of that issue. People who do identify with they/them for themselves deserve to be referred to correctly and, in the act of actually doing that for them, one does in fact learn this new-fangled thing. The people I know as they/them are that in my mind: it's not a substitute for something else, it's a new definition that I didn't have before. If the OP's parents seriously think that hey/hem/heir will feel more natural out of the gate, they're wrong. Even if they do manage to integrate it into their everyday speech, they will be seen as highly eccentric by others (citation: I do actually know someone who's done that with "thon") and still be wrong to apply it to their child. They might as well just learn the hard thing that'll at least facilitate communication with everyone who's been coming to understand they/them as a third option for people, particularly since it's the one that's actually correct in this case.
posted by teremala at 1:07 PM on October 23, 2023 [4 favorites]
posted by teremala at 1:07 PM on October 23, 2023 [4 favorites]
A piece of history some people here are missing is that trans and genderqueer people have been trying for as long as I've been alive (that's four decades or so, and people have actually been trying for far longer) to get the 'new pronouns' thing off the ground. The response has been, and continues to be, abysmal. Neopronoun users--the people who want the non-they/them options--are invalidated even more frequently and aggressively, and have their correct pronouns used far less, than people who use they/them pronouns. This is not the solution it seems to be.
Change in usage is a fact of language, and always has been. And people do hard things and change all the time, at all ages. We can do it imperfectly; we can give each other grace. There is a massive and very perceptible difference between 'this is hard and seems grammatically weird to me and I'm afraid I'll hurt you when I mess up but I'm actively working to fix it' and 'this is hard and seems grammatically wrong to me so I'll pass, thanks, and invent, over and above your explicitly stated wishes, another even more 'grammatically wrong' and less socially recognized way to address you,' which is what the question is about. (There are other categories, of course, and we have all encountered them many times, which, I don't know, could have something to do with being pissed and tired.)
posted by wormtales at 1:08 PM on October 23, 2023 [6 favorites]
Change in usage is a fact of language, and always has been. And people do hard things and change all the time, at all ages. We can do it imperfectly; we can give each other grace. There is a massive and very perceptible difference between 'this is hard and seems grammatically weird to me and I'm afraid I'll hurt you when I mess up but I'm actively working to fix it' and 'this is hard and seems grammatically wrong to me so I'll pass, thanks, and invent, over and above your explicitly stated wishes, another even more 'grammatically wrong' and less socially recognized way to address you,' which is what the question is about. (There are other categories, of course, and we have all encountered them many times, which, I don't know, could have something to do with being pissed and tired.)
posted by wormtales at 1:08 PM on October 23, 2023 [6 favorites]
Are they using these neopronouns successfully? If they have the mental flexibility to invent neopronouns and use them when referring to you, then surely they can adjust their thinking on they/them. If they want to. So why don't they want to?
You communicating this about yourself is an invitation to them to know you. They have declined it.
You know your parents better than any of us. If you think they could work with you given some patience, see if these scripts seem like they would work for you and your parents and apply any adjustments to make them more effective.
"I'm confused and hurt by your decision to refer to me with these words. I've been thinking about it and I can't understand why you refuse to call me they. I just don't believe that your hatred of singular they is greater than your respect for me. What's really going on?"
"I've told you this about myself because I want you to know me. It's okay if you want to think about why you're struggling with it and get back to me when you're ready to have a discussion about it. I still want you to know me. I'd rather we work through it than continue to feel disrespected and pushed away."
If that gets you nowhere:
"You've acknowledged that you hate the singular they even though you understand it grammatically. Would you do me the courtesy of making peace with that discomfort and calling me they anyway?"
posted by meemzi at 1:23 PM on October 23, 2023 [3 favorites]
You communicating this about yourself is an invitation to them to know you. They have declined it.
You know your parents better than any of us. If you think they could work with you given some patience, see if these scripts seem like they would work for you and your parents and apply any adjustments to make them more effective.
"I'm confused and hurt by your decision to refer to me with these words. I've been thinking about it and I can't understand why you refuse to call me they. I just don't believe that your hatred of singular they is greater than your respect for me. What's really going on?"
"I've told you this about myself because I want you to know me. It's okay if you want to think about why you're struggling with it and get back to me when you're ready to have a discussion about it. I still want you to know me. I'd rather we work through it than continue to feel disrespected and pushed away."
If that gets you nowhere:
"You've acknowledged that you hate the singular they even though you understand it grammatically. Would you do me the courtesy of making peace with that discomfort and calling me they anyway?"
posted by meemzi at 1:23 PM on October 23, 2023 [3 favorites]
How I Learned to Live with the Singular They (archived link for 2020 essay in Harper's), by Anne Fadiman (Francis Writer in Residence at Yale), is posted in my previous answer. "On the current prescriptivist/descriptivist battlefront, nothing has occasioned more bloodshed than the humble pronoun, in particular the singular they." The professor details learning to reorganize their thinking and approach, for respectful relationships with students. Linking again for folks participating in this thread who are similarly well-intentioned and stumbling, mentally, over "grammar" and unfamiliarity issues.
posted by Iris Gambol at 1:36 PM on October 23, 2023 [5 favorites]
posted by Iris Gambol at 1:36 PM on October 23, 2023 [5 favorites]
So the full stop for me is that not using someone's correct pronouns is misgendering them and it doesnt matter if it's hard or sounds weird or you would prefer a different one. Cis people are IME more likely to excuse this for people who don't use binary pronouns, but misgendering them is just as gross as dead naming. You don't have to be perfect but you do have to actively try.
posted by nakedmolerats at 1:46 PM on October 23, 2023 [6 favorites]
posted by nakedmolerats at 1:46 PM on October 23, 2023 [6 favorites]
Mod note: Several comments removed. A few left for context. This post is asking for advice about a specific situation and is not the place for cis members to reiterate how hard it is for them, personally, to use they/them pronouns.
posted by loup (staff) at 2:27 PM on October 23, 2023 [17 favorites]
posted by loup (staff) at 2:27 PM on October 23, 2023 [17 favorites]
As you've seen here, you're unlikely to get helpful advice from cis people.
Mastodon is a great place to find trans and nonbinary people who can give you informed and helpful support.
Another option is r/Nonbinary Talk.
posted by Zumbador at 7:41 PM on October 23, 2023 [2 favorites]
Mastodon is a great place to find trans and nonbinary people who can give you informed and helpful support.
Another option is r/Nonbinary Talk.
posted by Zumbador at 7:41 PM on October 23, 2023 [2 favorites]
Just a sidebar for people who say, "the word "they" is plural."
Um... you know, the word "YOU" is also both singular and plural - and YOU (both the singular "you" reading this, and the plural "you" that encompasses all of us English speakers) do just great with that!
posted by nouvelle-personne at 8:42 PM on October 23, 2023 [5 favorites]
Um... you know, the word "YOU" is also both singular and plural - and YOU (both the singular "you" reading this, and the plural "you" that encompasses all of us English speakers) do just great with that!
posted by nouvelle-personne at 8:42 PM on October 23, 2023 [5 favorites]
If my child (or anyone) needed me to use they/them, it would be a challenge
Speaking as a parent: children challenge their parents in all kinds of ways. That's part and parcel of being a parent. Flat refusal to deal with challenges in positive, productive ways that put the kid's interests first is just being a shitty parent. It is perfectly fair and reasonable for the OP to expect their parents to use the pronouns they've asked them to and if the parents do find that challenging then their options are
(a) suck it up
posted by flabdablet at 9:04 PM on October 23, 2023 [9 favorites]
Speaking as a parent: children challenge their parents in all kinds of ways. That's part and parcel of being a parent. Flat refusal to deal with challenges in positive, productive ways that put the kid's interests first is just being a shitty parent. It is perfectly fair and reasonable for the OP to expect their parents to use the pronouns they've asked them to and if the parents do find that challenging then their options are
(a) suck it up
posted by flabdablet at 9:04 PM on October 23, 2023 [9 favorites]
This is name calling. It's not any better than if they were calling you slurs, or a hurtful nickname, or anything else designed to hurt your feelings and make you feel bad about your gender. Because they know that's what they're doing, and they keep doing it, and using made up words to call you names and hurt your feelings isn't any better than them using dictionary words or known slurs to hurt your feelings.
Do they have any control over you? Are you living with them, getting financial support from them, etc.? If not, I highly recommend the Just Leave method.
You tell them ahead of time, "Mom, Dad, it really hurts my feelings when you call me names: and that's what this is when you refer to me with silly made up words instead of the actual words that refer to me, it's name calling, and it's hurtful. But my telling you that has not convinced you to stop calling me names, and I'm not going to continue to allow my feelings to be hurt. So if you want to use made up words, I'm not going to be present when that happens. When you do it, I'm going to leave that situation, and I will not come back until I feel ready. I will do this each and every time you engage in name calling in this way, and the amount of time it will take me to feel ready to spend time with you again will likely increase the more you persist in hurting my feelings."
They will not believe you. They will try to debate or push back. But this isn't up for debate. You say that once, and then you simply do it. If they use one of their made up words, you say, "Mom, Dad, that hurt my feelings, and so I am [leaving/hanging up the phone/ending this conversation/cutting our visit short/whatever you need to do to get yourself out of the situation]." And then you do it. You leave the room, leave the house, hang up the phone, end your visit, etc. And then you don't talk to them again until you feel ready to. That may be later that day, or it may be a week later, or it may be a month later. If they try to contact you, you tell them "my feelings are still hurt from your name calling, so I am not ready to talk to you." And then you hang up the phone/don't reply back/leave the situation." You keep doing this for as long as they keep saying hurtful things to you.
If they send emissaries--siblings, aunts, family friends, etc.--to try to convince you that you should not do this, do not engage. You can tell those people, "my parents have engaged in hurtful name calling, and they will not stop, and so I am angry at them right now and not ready yet to forgive them." Or you can tell those people, "this is between me and my parents, and I don't want to talk about it." But do not engage or argue or debate with those people either.
One of two things will happen here. The first (and hopefully more likely) is that they will back down, because they actually don't care about their made up words as much as they care about you. The second possibility is that they are so stubborn/bigoted/whatever that they refuse to stop calling you names. And that will mean they don't get to be a part of your life. Because your hurt feelings will mean that maybe you only talk to them once or twice a year, and only for a few minutes until they start saying made up words, and then you leave again. And that would be sad, but that's something that they are doing to your relationship with their disrespect for you, not something you are doing. It is something they are doing by engaging in intentional, hurtful name calling.
I'm so sorry your parents are behaving in this terrible way.
posted by decathecting at 10:13 AM on October 24, 2023 [4 favorites]
Do they have any control over you? Are you living with them, getting financial support from them, etc.? If not, I highly recommend the Just Leave method.
You tell them ahead of time, "Mom, Dad, it really hurts my feelings when you call me names: and that's what this is when you refer to me with silly made up words instead of the actual words that refer to me, it's name calling, and it's hurtful. But my telling you that has not convinced you to stop calling me names, and I'm not going to continue to allow my feelings to be hurt. So if you want to use made up words, I'm not going to be present when that happens. When you do it, I'm going to leave that situation, and I will not come back until I feel ready. I will do this each and every time you engage in name calling in this way, and the amount of time it will take me to feel ready to spend time with you again will likely increase the more you persist in hurting my feelings."
They will not believe you. They will try to debate or push back. But this isn't up for debate. You say that once, and then you simply do it. If they use one of their made up words, you say, "Mom, Dad, that hurt my feelings, and so I am [leaving/hanging up the phone/ending this conversation/cutting our visit short/whatever you need to do to get yourself out of the situation]." And then you do it. You leave the room, leave the house, hang up the phone, end your visit, etc. And then you don't talk to them again until you feel ready to. That may be later that day, or it may be a week later, or it may be a month later. If they try to contact you, you tell them "my feelings are still hurt from your name calling, so I am not ready to talk to you." And then you hang up the phone/don't reply back/leave the situation." You keep doing this for as long as they keep saying hurtful things to you.
If they send emissaries--siblings, aunts, family friends, etc.--to try to convince you that you should not do this, do not engage. You can tell those people, "my parents have engaged in hurtful name calling, and they will not stop, and so I am angry at them right now and not ready yet to forgive them." Or you can tell those people, "this is between me and my parents, and I don't want to talk about it." But do not engage or argue or debate with those people either.
One of two things will happen here. The first (and hopefully more likely) is that they will back down, because they actually don't care about their made up words as much as they care about you. The second possibility is that they are so stubborn/bigoted/whatever that they refuse to stop calling you names. And that will mean they don't get to be a part of your life. Because your hurt feelings will mean that maybe you only talk to them once or twice a year, and only for a few minutes until they start saying made up words, and then you leave again. And that would be sad, but that's something that they are doing to your relationship with their disrespect for you, not something you are doing. It is something they are doing by engaging in intentional, hurtful name calling.
I'm so sorry your parents are behaving in this terrible way.
posted by decathecting at 10:13 AM on October 24, 2023 [4 favorites]
This might be obvious, but I’ll point it out because it took me a minute to realize: their invented pronouns are just they/them/their with the t’s removed. I don’t know that this changes anything, but you should be aware if you’re not already. Your parents might feel like they are complying with your wishes in their own weird way.
posted by Comet Bug at 8:00 PM on October 24, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by Comet Bug at 8:00 PM on October 24, 2023 [2 favorites]
Another way to go might be to commit to giving them shit about this for the rest of their lives by getting squarely across the "correct" use of thou/thee/thy/thine/thyself, insisting on using one of those instead of you/your/yours/yourself when addressing them individually, then ragging on them for being horribly ungrammatical whenever they fail to do likewise.
I expect you'd find that any argument they come up with to defend their customary usage is directly applicable as a counter to whatever half-assed bullshit they wheel out to defend their refusal to embrace a singular "they".
posted by flabdablet at 10:17 PM on October 24, 2023 [1 favorite]
I expect you'd find that any argument they come up with to defend their customary usage is directly applicable as a counter to whatever half-assed bullshit they wheel out to defend their refusal to embrace a singular "they".
posted by flabdablet at 10:17 PM on October 24, 2023 [1 favorite]
I faced something very similar from my dad. I really hated a lot of the advice i was given, especially the tone of it. So many people told me "oh he's just old and it's hard, he'll come around". Or you know, something that the summary and vibe of was essentially that. Even, and i hated this, other trans people. I still resent some of those people, and went back and confronted some of them for it later.
However, what did end up working wasn't the heartfelt crying pleas after ages of frustration, the arguments, or other confrontations. Letters were written, conflicts happened.
Eventually i just decided i wasn't willing to talk about this with him at all. If he said something crappy to my friends, those people had free reign to tear into him however they wanted, but i'd just pretend i didn't hear it.
It was hard to sit through some of the "or whatever the hell your name is 🙄" comments, but after literal years of getting no joy or reaction out of me, it just stopped. He just shut up, and started using the right pronouns, and it was over.
And i you told this to me as advice even a few years ago, i would have yelled at you. If i could contact myself through a time machine and say this i'd probably yell at me. I really hate that some of the people who basically told me to wait it out or do this were right because it felt so wrong. But yea
This is bullying, this is bully behavior, and sometimes you really do have to just ice out bullies and pretend they're speaking simlish until they just get bored and shut up. It's frustrating, and it feels like giving in or relinquishing power sometimes, but it's true.
posted by emptythought at 5:06 PM on October 27, 2023 [2 favorites]
However, what did end up working wasn't the heartfelt crying pleas after ages of frustration, the arguments, or other confrontations. Letters were written, conflicts happened.
Eventually i just decided i wasn't willing to talk about this with him at all. If he said something crappy to my friends, those people had free reign to tear into him however they wanted, but i'd just pretend i didn't hear it.
It was hard to sit through some of the "or whatever the hell your name is 🙄" comments, but after literal years of getting no joy or reaction out of me, it just stopped. He just shut up, and started using the right pronouns, and it was over.
And i you told this to me as advice even a few years ago, i would have yelled at you. If i could contact myself through a time machine and say this i'd probably yell at me. I really hate that some of the people who basically told me to wait it out or do this were right because it felt so wrong. But yea
This is bullying, this is bully behavior, and sometimes you really do have to just ice out bullies and pretend they're speaking simlish until they just get bored and shut up. It's frustrating, and it feels like giving in or relinquishing power sometimes, but it's true.
posted by emptythought at 5:06 PM on October 27, 2023 [2 favorites]
This thread is closed to new comments.
posted by capricorn at 2:12 PM on October 22, 2023 [9 favorites]