How do I move on with my son?
July 16, 2023 4:09 PM Subscribe
I made a mistake when I noticed my adult son did not seem himself...I do not know how to move past it. I don't know what he is looking for as I have apologized. I fear I may have crossed a line I shouldn't have. I deeply regret this and am trying to move forward but he brings this up time and time again. Did I judge his partner wrong, I fear she is manipulating this in the background or am I seeing this wrong?
My son has been with with his girlfriend I will call Bee. Up until the incident I am writing about we seemed to had gotten along pretty well. I'll start with the backstory:
When they were first dating and I asked questions about Bee he told me she happened to be a life coach. Bee is from another country but has lived in US for some years. She has a Masters Degree education in Biology from her home, that was her way to get out she said. Later I learned she works as a psychic (I am not being harsh she told me she can communicate with the dead) but uses her gift as a life coach, people pay for therapy with her.
A bit of my backstory: I was a single mother to two children. My ex wasn't around much for my kids until they were adults which currently they have a good relationship. When we divorced my son was 7, it was very hard on him. He was NOT a difficult child but wasn't openly expressive with any deep feelings (though I knew he was hurting). Perhaps it is my fault I know I am not an open person, I grew up in a family where we didn't have heart to heart dialogue...we loved each other, we knew that. I worked full time (sometimes 3 jobs) and went to college while my kids were growing up...my Mom helped me during these difficult times. I really thought although things sometimes were tough we were doing well. I admit there were times I was not perfect and probably was short, yelling if angry. I also have to add I tried not to badmouth my ex as his family was in their lives and still are. I didn't want to be that disgruntled mother and ex wife. When my son was in high school he had so/so grades, had trouble concentrating and I'm sure I didn't react the best...grounding him etc. As I look back I now he probably had a learning disability. As he grew into an adult he told me that in college he tried depression meds as he knew he had trouble focusing in school but stopped because he didn't like the feeling.I supported him when he quit college and decided to move out of state and try a career in acting, I drove him there.
Some years ago when my Mother was diagnosed with a rare lung disease dying 12 months later. It was very hard for all of us. My son was still living out of state and when hospice was clear I told him it wouldn't be much longer and he should come here to say goodbye. Not much longer after her death he moved back home with me he said he was done with what he was doing. He wasn't home long and when he moved he said he was giving me my space back.
Currently he is in his early 30's finishing college.
Over the years, as I said, we had trouble talking about very personal stuff, opening up but we were not miserable. There was nothing extremely out of the ordinary. We had a healthy mom/son relationship (at least I thought) I will add that he and his sister are also close.
I'm sorry if this is getting long....I felt like the backstory needed to be told.
Over time my son and Bee eventually move in together and things seemed good. I used some of the money my mother left me with a gift from a friend of using a week long time share to take us on a trip together as a family which I included Bee. On certain days she was fell ill and so my son said he had to stay in the room with her. The illness I was told is due to her period and she had suffered this most of her adult life. I thought well maybe she shouldn't have come? Mind you I never said that and I just let it go they are adults. There was something that remains with me about the trip...at one point we were near a posted "dangerous" water spout and my son was joking around near it and I asked him to stop as this was making me nervous...she told me that 'he is an adult to not talk to him as a child.'
Over time I lightly brought up her livlihood. We talked about other ways she made her living as a wellness and lifecoach instructor. I did say that I believe that some of us have intuition, kind of a 6th sense. There was a time that my son told me he did a reading with one of her friends and the man had a message for me (they recorded it and played it for me) it said "You done all the work I needed to do taking care of people, raising kids and I should enjoy my life." I don't know how I felt about this, it was strange. This was around the time they moved in together. Me? I was learning to live without my Mom and kids were long out of the house so?
So now a few years later and just recently it was noticable to me (his sister said the same) that my son did not seem himself. Not laughing, always serious, questioning things we say almost picking it apart...it was VERY noticable. When they had small parties inviting us over it was always her friends, not his. They bought a car together but he still had to take the bus to get around. Around this time I was told her disease was getting worse she told me surgery wass imminent (it never came to be)? I work in the field it just seemed odd. It finally came out at a his birthday dinner that Bee told me she was still married when she moved to our state and is recently divorced. She mentioned he was a 'momma's boy'. I didn't ask anything more about it, not my business. I never said that I disapproved in any way.
Here is where I know I started making mistakes. At the holidays this year I was told they were not coming to celebrate because Bee is not Christian. I knew this but it was just dinner after all -something we did for the last few years. To my suprise they showed up and left early because she said she threw up in the bathroom. The next day my son told me that she needed to get away from our family because we really don't communicate and the stress was getting to her. I was flabbergasted. There was nothing out of the ordinary that happened?
Something was off character with my son for some time...I felt I needed to see if he was alright. I invited him out to dinner alone and I asked him if he was happy? I told him what I thought about him being out of sorts and asked if he was depressed if he was okay? I asked if he saw his friends? I MISTAKINGLY brought up to him that being with someone who is has a disease is a big responsibility...was he up for that? What if they wanted kids are they ready for that? I know now I know it was wrong...mind you my father had a terminal disease I know my mother had a hard life. Looking back I don't know what I was thinking I should have just not done it. Throughout our conversation though he never got angry, we just talked.
Three days later he called me in the middle of the night and said I crossed boundaries. (he vocabulary he used was not like his) A few days later came to my home and told me that I was a bad parent, was short with him growing up, that he was afraid to talk to me over the years...on and on. He told me that he never wanted to move back here when his Grandmother was dying...(something I NEVER asked him to do?) He told me what Bee thought of the relationships of my family and how disfunctional it is. After a heated argument we concluded we need to express ourselves more but yes of course we love each other. I now was getting the feeling that he told her of the dinner conversation. Some time later he told me that he did.
It has now been 5 months. Bee has no contact with me,he said she wants nothing to do with anyone in our family. My son will telephone me here and there only from his car in or in his garage. Once he called to tell me they were breaking up because she told him he doesn't communicate with her the way she wants but told me that he loves her....I did suggest to him that he should go to therapy. I know they went together.
Just recently we met for a very quick coffee, during so he kept looking at his cellphone, then he went to the bathroom for about 15 min with the phone, came out telling me he had to leave. I felt he mostly looked at me like he hated me, it was heartbreaking, I cried in my car after. The following day he texted, "that I beat around the bush during our visit with senseless conversation". I admitted I used small talk as I was afraid to say the wrong thing. He answered that, "Worrying about saying the right or wrong thing with omitting and filtering is emotionally dishonest".
He also stated, "it was a waste -that his time is valuable, we needed to talk about what happened at dinner back when". I again apologized, I told him I was just worried about him, my child back then...he went on to say, "that was the problem, I have to stop treating him as a kid. I am bring up that day because of it's significance, because I didn't feel respected." He went on that, "This was a traumatic experience that I don't think the people I grew up around or were raised by understand so communication then isn't something that is fully aprreciated or practiced. You are apologizing for things are turning out now. You can make mistakes but can't minimize the impact of the words you spoke and move on. I am addressing the emotional dishonesty and unavailability and lack of action to address what I have shared that has been hurtful or damaging."
I have never heard him speak in such a tone.
Honeslty I think I have been paying for my mistake for months I want to move forward. I don't even want to talk anymore as terrible as that sounds. This is painful, I just can't. I'm at a loss, I feel like I must have been a terrible parent in the past and am now? I don't know how to move forward?
My son has been with with his girlfriend I will call Bee. Up until the incident I am writing about we seemed to had gotten along pretty well. I'll start with the backstory:
When they were first dating and I asked questions about Bee he told me she happened to be a life coach. Bee is from another country but has lived in US for some years. She has a Masters Degree education in Biology from her home, that was her way to get out she said. Later I learned she works as a psychic (I am not being harsh she told me she can communicate with the dead) but uses her gift as a life coach, people pay for therapy with her.
A bit of my backstory: I was a single mother to two children. My ex wasn't around much for my kids until they were adults which currently they have a good relationship. When we divorced my son was 7, it was very hard on him. He was NOT a difficult child but wasn't openly expressive with any deep feelings (though I knew he was hurting). Perhaps it is my fault I know I am not an open person, I grew up in a family where we didn't have heart to heart dialogue...we loved each other, we knew that. I worked full time (sometimes 3 jobs) and went to college while my kids were growing up...my Mom helped me during these difficult times. I really thought although things sometimes were tough we were doing well. I admit there were times I was not perfect and probably was short, yelling if angry. I also have to add I tried not to badmouth my ex as his family was in their lives and still are. I didn't want to be that disgruntled mother and ex wife. When my son was in high school he had so/so grades, had trouble concentrating and I'm sure I didn't react the best...grounding him etc. As I look back I now he probably had a learning disability. As he grew into an adult he told me that in college he tried depression meds as he knew he had trouble focusing in school but stopped because he didn't like the feeling.I supported him when he quit college and decided to move out of state and try a career in acting, I drove him there.
Some years ago when my Mother was diagnosed with a rare lung disease dying 12 months later. It was very hard for all of us. My son was still living out of state and when hospice was clear I told him it wouldn't be much longer and he should come here to say goodbye. Not much longer after her death he moved back home with me he said he was done with what he was doing. He wasn't home long and when he moved he said he was giving me my space back.
Currently he is in his early 30's finishing college.
Over the years, as I said, we had trouble talking about very personal stuff, opening up but we were not miserable. There was nothing extremely out of the ordinary. We had a healthy mom/son relationship (at least I thought) I will add that he and his sister are also close.
I'm sorry if this is getting long....I felt like the backstory needed to be told.
Over time my son and Bee eventually move in together and things seemed good. I used some of the money my mother left me with a gift from a friend of using a week long time share to take us on a trip together as a family which I included Bee. On certain days she was fell ill and so my son said he had to stay in the room with her. The illness I was told is due to her period and she had suffered this most of her adult life. I thought well maybe she shouldn't have come? Mind you I never said that and I just let it go they are adults. There was something that remains with me about the trip...at one point we were near a posted "dangerous" water spout and my son was joking around near it and I asked him to stop as this was making me nervous...she told me that 'he is an adult to not talk to him as a child.'
Over time I lightly brought up her livlihood. We talked about other ways she made her living as a wellness and lifecoach instructor. I did say that I believe that some of us have intuition, kind of a 6th sense. There was a time that my son told me he did a reading with one of her friends and the man had a message for me (they recorded it and played it for me) it said "You done all the work I needed to do taking care of people, raising kids and I should enjoy my life." I don't know how I felt about this, it was strange. This was around the time they moved in together. Me? I was learning to live without my Mom and kids were long out of the house so?
So now a few years later and just recently it was noticable to me (his sister said the same) that my son did not seem himself. Not laughing, always serious, questioning things we say almost picking it apart...it was VERY noticable. When they had small parties inviting us over it was always her friends, not his. They bought a car together but he still had to take the bus to get around. Around this time I was told her disease was getting worse she told me surgery wass imminent (it never came to be)? I work in the field it just seemed odd. It finally came out at a his birthday dinner that Bee told me she was still married when she moved to our state and is recently divorced. She mentioned he was a 'momma's boy'. I didn't ask anything more about it, not my business. I never said that I disapproved in any way.
Here is where I know I started making mistakes. At the holidays this year I was told they were not coming to celebrate because Bee is not Christian. I knew this but it was just dinner after all -something we did for the last few years. To my suprise they showed up and left early because she said she threw up in the bathroom. The next day my son told me that she needed to get away from our family because we really don't communicate and the stress was getting to her. I was flabbergasted. There was nothing out of the ordinary that happened?
Something was off character with my son for some time...I felt I needed to see if he was alright. I invited him out to dinner alone and I asked him if he was happy? I told him what I thought about him being out of sorts and asked if he was depressed if he was okay? I asked if he saw his friends? I MISTAKINGLY brought up to him that being with someone who is has a disease is a big responsibility...was he up for that? What if they wanted kids are they ready for that? I know now I know it was wrong...mind you my father had a terminal disease I know my mother had a hard life. Looking back I don't know what I was thinking I should have just not done it. Throughout our conversation though he never got angry, we just talked.
Three days later he called me in the middle of the night and said I crossed boundaries. (he vocabulary he used was not like his) A few days later came to my home and told me that I was a bad parent, was short with him growing up, that he was afraid to talk to me over the years...on and on. He told me that he never wanted to move back here when his Grandmother was dying...(something I NEVER asked him to do?) He told me what Bee thought of the relationships of my family and how disfunctional it is. After a heated argument we concluded we need to express ourselves more but yes of course we love each other. I now was getting the feeling that he told her of the dinner conversation. Some time later he told me that he did.
It has now been 5 months. Bee has no contact with me,he said she wants nothing to do with anyone in our family. My son will telephone me here and there only from his car in or in his garage. Once he called to tell me they were breaking up because she told him he doesn't communicate with her the way she wants but told me that he loves her....I did suggest to him that he should go to therapy. I know they went together.
Just recently we met for a very quick coffee, during so he kept looking at his cellphone, then he went to the bathroom for about 15 min with the phone, came out telling me he had to leave. I felt he mostly looked at me like he hated me, it was heartbreaking, I cried in my car after. The following day he texted, "that I beat around the bush during our visit with senseless conversation". I admitted I used small talk as I was afraid to say the wrong thing. He answered that, "Worrying about saying the right or wrong thing with omitting and filtering is emotionally dishonest".
He also stated, "it was a waste -that his time is valuable, we needed to talk about what happened at dinner back when". I again apologized, I told him I was just worried about him, my child back then...he went on to say, "that was the problem, I have to stop treating him as a kid. I am bring up that day because of it's significance, because I didn't feel respected." He went on that, "This was a traumatic experience that I don't think the people I grew up around or were raised by understand so communication then isn't something that is fully aprreciated or practiced. You are apologizing for things are turning out now. You can make mistakes but can't minimize the impact of the words you spoke and move on. I am addressing the emotional dishonesty and unavailability and lack of action to address what I have shared that has been hurtful or damaging."
I have never heard him speak in such a tone.
Honeslty I think I have been paying for my mistake for months I want to move forward. I don't even want to talk anymore as terrible as that sounds. This is painful, I just can't. I'm at a loss, I feel like I must have been a terrible parent in the past and am now? I don't know how to move forward?
I don't see where the big sin was that you're supposed to have committed, recently or in the past. Sounds to me like you've worked very hard to be a good mom and have been generous and kind.
To me this story reads simply that he loves her, she dislikes and disrespects you for her own reasons (you don't know what her relationship is with her own family, but I'd bet a million dollars that it sucks) and he is choosing (consciously or not) to adopt her beliefs (about you, about himself, about emotional dishonesty, etc) as his own because he wants to be with her and that's the price of admission.
I am sorry. This is very, very hard. I hear you say you don't even feel like talking anymore and I think perhaps that maybe, if you can stand it, it is ok to take a break for now. Wait for him to call you. I think there is a real danger that if you push, she will invent more reasons why you are the villain, and the situation will deteriorate.
posted by fingersandtoes at 4:50 PM on July 16, 2023 [48 favorites]
To me this story reads simply that he loves her, she dislikes and disrespects you for her own reasons (you don't know what her relationship is with her own family, but I'd bet a million dollars that it sucks) and he is choosing (consciously or not) to adopt her beliefs (about you, about himself, about emotional dishonesty, etc) as his own because he wants to be with her and that's the price of admission.
I am sorry. This is very, very hard. I hear you say you don't even feel like talking anymore and I think perhaps that maybe, if you can stand it, it is ok to take a break for now. Wait for him to call you. I think there is a real danger that if you push, she will invent more reasons why you are the villain, and the situation will deteriorate.
posted by fingersandtoes at 4:50 PM on July 16, 2023 [48 favorites]
This is a complicated story, and I'm sure we'd gain a lot from hearing your son's version of events. It sounds like there is some lingering trauma from childhood there, something he needs to address internally and with you. Unfortunately, it also sounds like he's fallen in with a woman who is controlling and knows how to use therapy-speak as a weapon. Odds are decent that she either wrote or was heavily involved in writing that last set of texts.
Doubly unfortunately, this situation is not something you can argue your way out of. All you can do is try to be kind, keep the lines of communication open, and hope he realizes at some point that her methods of coping aren't really the best for him. Go to therapy yourself to get some perspective on those child-rearing years. Don't push on contact with her at all, and accept invitations from him, but don't initiate much. If he starts in on the therapy-speak again, ask him if he would like the two of you to go to family therapy. It would be great if he did; as I said, I'm sure there are issues both of you could profitably work on with some outside guidance. If he puts it off with some double-talk, then you can at least console yourself that you have tried and that right now it's more important to them that he hold a grudge than that you have a good relationship, which means there's not much more you can do.
I'm sorry. This is a tough situation.
posted by praemunire at 4:50 PM on July 16, 2023 [38 favorites]
Doubly unfortunately, this situation is not something you can argue your way out of. All you can do is try to be kind, keep the lines of communication open, and hope he realizes at some point that her methods of coping aren't really the best for him. Go to therapy yourself to get some perspective on those child-rearing years. Don't push on contact with her at all, and accept invitations from him, but don't initiate much. If he starts in on the therapy-speak again, ask him if he would like the two of you to go to family therapy. It would be great if he did; as I said, I'm sure there are issues both of you could profitably work on with some outside guidance. If he puts it off with some double-talk, then you can at least console yourself that you have tried and that right now it's more important to them that he hold a grudge than that you have a good relationship, which means there's not much more you can do.
I'm sorry. This is a tough situation.
posted by praemunire at 4:50 PM on July 16, 2023 [38 favorites]
Here’s the question I have. When you met for coffee recently, what was he like before he went to the bathroom? If he was his usual self then, but changed after the bathroom break, that’s concerning. It means the girlfriend is manipulating him and you should try to help him get out of the relationship. But if he was pretty consistently distant and used the therapy-speak throughout, that suggests to me that he’s being sincere with you.
posted by kevinbelt at 5:20 PM on July 16, 2023 [6 favorites]
posted by kevinbelt at 5:20 PM on July 16, 2023 [6 favorites]
What this reminds me of, is when my siblings's new spouse systematically isolated sibling from sibling's entire family, bit by bit over about a year. Our thought then was that spouse was abusive to some degree, or perhaps just very insecure, and isolating sibling from sibling's entire social support system - not just family but friends - was part of the way he manipulated sibling to have greater control.
Part of that isolation strategy was developing stories about various family members that placed them as really bad people who would need to be cut off from all contact.
Part of it involved therapy and stories that were developed out of that, as well. Her parents were tagged as abusers based on, literally, zero evidence. (Her therapist was prominent in the now completely discredited recovered memory movement.) And that puts all other family members in place as abuse-enablers. This justified the couple cutting all ties with the family, which is what siblings's partner wanted.
They went on to spend 25 years very active in a high-demand type very patriarchal religion, which we would see as following the same pattern. Then of course he divorced her. But the damage to our family relations remains, because the (completely false) story is still firmly in place.
So that is the story from our perspective as the cut off family members - though undoubtedly sibling (and ex-spouse) will have vastly different stories.
I can't say whether your story is the same. Every couple will develop stories that place them together as a unit and everyone else outside that unit. It is especially important to develop some distance from the closest family members. So a degree of this is perfectly normal and perhaps even healthy. It is hard to judge from outside exactly why and to what degree this is happening.
But that is our story, and our perspective, just for your consideration.
What to do? Assuming your situation is similar (and keep in mind, maybe it is not AT ALL) I would try to keep communications channels open, let son know you still love him and want to keep in touch whatever happens, etc. What do people recommend when working with victims of abuse (again, not saying this IS abuse, we don't really have the evidence, but just entertaining it as a possibility)? You can't really force a person to leave an abusive relationship. Only that person can take that decision. You stay in contact as best you can, don't close any doors, let them know you are ready to support in whatever way the person needs. If and when the person decides to exit the relationship, then you are there ready to help. But in the meanwhile it probably won't be helpful to urge them to leave, explain why their partner is a bad person, or whatever. Or even probe in that direction. That is only likely to end up damaging your relationship with your son and also doesn't really help son leave the situation. But you let son know that you love and support them unconditionally, you want the best for them in the relationship and always, and you'll always be there to support them whatever happens. You would like to keep in regular contact, and want to support him in ways that will help, but also don't want to interfere in his life in ways that are not helpful. How does son feel is the best way to accomplish that?
A lot of that is probably decent advice regardless of relationship status - from perfectly normal to slightly difficult to very problematic.
A few resources on how to help friends in an abusive relationship: 1 2 3 - partly to help you think through whether or not you think that is the situation you are in.
posted by flug at 6:20 PM on July 16, 2023 [10 favorites]
Part of that isolation strategy was developing stories about various family members that placed them as really bad people who would need to be cut off from all contact.
Part of it involved therapy and stories that were developed out of that, as well. Her parents were tagged as abusers based on, literally, zero evidence. (Her therapist was prominent in the now completely discredited recovered memory movement.) And that puts all other family members in place as abuse-enablers. This justified the couple cutting all ties with the family, which is what siblings's partner wanted.
They went on to spend 25 years very active in a high-demand type very patriarchal religion, which we would see as following the same pattern. Then of course he divorced her. But the damage to our family relations remains, because the (completely false) story is still firmly in place.
So that is the story from our perspective as the cut off family members - though undoubtedly sibling (and ex-spouse) will have vastly different stories.
I can't say whether your story is the same. Every couple will develop stories that place them together as a unit and everyone else outside that unit. It is especially important to develop some distance from the closest family members. So a degree of this is perfectly normal and perhaps even healthy. It is hard to judge from outside exactly why and to what degree this is happening.
But that is our story, and our perspective, just for your consideration.
What to do? Assuming your situation is similar (and keep in mind, maybe it is not AT ALL) I would try to keep communications channels open, let son know you still love him and want to keep in touch whatever happens, etc. What do people recommend when working with victims of abuse (again, not saying this IS abuse, we don't really have the evidence, but just entertaining it as a possibility)? You can't really force a person to leave an abusive relationship. Only that person can take that decision. You stay in contact as best you can, don't close any doors, let them know you are ready to support in whatever way the person needs. If and when the person decides to exit the relationship, then you are there ready to help. But in the meanwhile it probably won't be helpful to urge them to leave, explain why their partner is a bad person, or whatever. Or even probe in that direction. That is only likely to end up damaging your relationship with your son and also doesn't really help son leave the situation. But you let son know that you love and support them unconditionally, you want the best for them in the relationship and always, and you'll always be there to support them whatever happens. You would like to keep in regular contact, and want to support him in ways that will help, but also don't want to interfere in his life in ways that are not helpful. How does son feel is the best way to accomplish that?
A lot of that is probably decent advice regardless of relationship status - from perfectly normal to slightly difficult to very problematic.
A few resources on how to help friends in an abusive relationship: 1 2 3 - partly to help you think through whether or not you think that is the situation you are in.
posted by flug at 6:20 PM on July 16, 2023 [10 favorites]
I’m going to suggest a possibility that I suspect may have occurred to you, which is that this woman does not in fact have anything physically wrong with her and the claims of illness are a manipulation device. Of course that may be totally off base, but it’s what jumped out when reading your story. Certainly that’s not something you would ever want to bring up, but maybe it would help explain why she/they reacted so strongly to your “mistake” of foregrounding the illness as a potential factor in their relationship.
posted by staggernation at 6:34 PM on July 16, 2023 [11 favorites]
posted by staggernation at 6:34 PM on July 16, 2023 [11 favorites]
She’s a con-artist who is trying every trick in the book to cut him off from you and all other friends and relations. She’s physically sick. She’s a psychic who can read minds and thus, knows what is best for your son even when he does not.
If you had the money, I’d suggest hiring a private investigator, because I’d guess she’s done this kind of routine before. If you don’t—try to maintain casual contact with your son.
posted by Ideefixe at 6:38 PM on July 16, 2023 [12 favorites]
If you had the money, I’d suggest hiring a private investigator, because I’d guess she’s done this kind of routine before. If you don’t—try to maintain casual contact with your son.
posted by Ideefixe at 6:38 PM on July 16, 2023 [12 favorites]
I'm sorry, as others have mentioned, this sounds really hard. I also agree with those saying that I it seems like you're being punished for something that was, at worst, a slight misstep.
I would just keep being loving and kind - hopefully he'll eventually realize the picture Bee is painting of you is not true. And if you could get him to go to a therapist with you, that would likely be helpful if he'd be open to it - do you think he'd be more likely to go if his sister came as well?
posted by coffeecat at 6:44 PM on July 16, 2023 [2 favorites]
I would just keep being loving and kind - hopefully he'll eventually realize the picture Bee is painting of you is not true. And if you could get him to go to a therapist with you, that would likely be helpful if he'd be open to it - do you think he'd be more likely to go if his sister came as well?
posted by coffeecat at 6:44 PM on July 16, 2023 [2 favorites]
Her symptoms are consistent with stress related migraine (people with migraines can sometimes get them _all the time_). If she's very anxious about family relationships -- which wouldn't be unusual if her own family was troubled -- it wouldn't be weird _at all_ for her to be sick a lot when she had to interact with her boyfriend's family. Or it can be especially intense around mothers. Please don't ask me how I know :)
I'm not saying she's a perfect person -- we, and the poster, just don't know about the health stuff. Or much of anything else, including how intensely the poster's son was shamed for his grades, whether the kind treatment the poster reports was surface procedural stuff (included at dinners, gave expensive presents, didn't openly insult) or surface "niceness" (smiled, asked about her work) or genuine openness and connection (unlikely given the story related here). If the girlfriend is sensitive to the genuineness of openness and connection, then a lack of that from someone in a close family relationship could be really awful.
Please don't pathologize or condemn someone you're only hearing about second hand, without getting interactive information, from someone who clearly doesn't respect her and who thinks she's harming her son. That's emotionally fraught, and you're not going to have any kind of complete sense of the situation.
posted by amtho at 6:50 PM on July 16, 2023 [16 favorites]
I'm not saying she's a perfect person -- we, and the poster, just don't know about the health stuff. Or much of anything else, including how intensely the poster's son was shamed for his grades, whether the kind treatment the poster reports was surface procedural stuff (included at dinners, gave expensive presents, didn't openly insult) or surface "niceness" (smiled, asked about her work) or genuine openness and connection (unlikely given the story related here). If the girlfriend is sensitive to the genuineness of openness and connection, then a lack of that from someone in a close family relationship could be really awful.
Please don't pathologize or condemn someone you're only hearing about second hand, without getting interactive information, from someone who clearly doesn't respect her and who thinks she's harming her son. That's emotionally fraught, and you're not going to have any kind of complete sense of the situation.
posted by amtho at 6:50 PM on July 16, 2023 [16 favorites]
It’s pretty normal and healthy for a partner to discuss family stuff - Bee knowing what you talked about is not manipulative. And it sounds like she might have endometriosis or another chronic illness which has fluctuating symptoms, and she chooses a woo-woo system to help her navigate her life - all religious/spiritual stuff sounds woo to outsiders.
You don’t have a good relationship right now with your son and that sucks. But I am surprised how little you know about his long term girlfriend. You may feel comfortable keeping her at arm’s length and having a parent-child familiar routine with your son, but that doesn’t mean they have to abide by it. He wants more closeness and honesty and involvement.
posted by dorothyisunderwood at 6:57 PM on July 16, 2023 [7 favorites]
You don’t have a good relationship right now with your son and that sucks. But I am surprised how little you know about his long term girlfriend. You may feel comfortable keeping her at arm’s length and having a parent-child familiar routine with your son, but that doesn’t mean they have to abide by it. He wants more closeness and honesty and involvement.
posted by dorothyisunderwood at 6:57 PM on July 16, 2023 [7 favorites]
it sounds like she might have endometriosis
What I thought as well. There is a wide range of possibilities here, from genuinely ill, genuinely wanting the best for son, responding to information we don't have with less than complete wisdom, all the way to malingering, abusive con artist. I don't think it's possible for us to tell, but I also think that in terms of mom's response, it doesn't matter all that much, as the dynamic will be similar regardless.
posted by praemunire at 7:04 PM on July 16, 2023 [13 favorites]
What I thought as well. There is a wide range of possibilities here, from genuinely ill, genuinely wanting the best for son, responding to information we don't have with less than complete wisdom, all the way to malingering, abusive con artist. I don't think it's possible for us to tell, but I also think that in terms of mom's response, it doesn't matter all that much, as the dynamic will be similar regardless.
posted by praemunire at 7:04 PM on July 16, 2023 [13 favorites]
This sounds very difficult, and there is a lot of good advice above on keeping lines of communication, however casual or limited, open with your son. It sounds like he's not able to discuss the situation with his wife in any depth with you for now, for whatever reason. I know it's difficult to step back and let the situation just be for now, but doing so cool things down and
Other answers make very good points about what might be going on with both your son and his wife, and it's worth keeping an open mind and trying to view both of them with compassion. But, I hope you will give yourself the same grace and care. Whatever their issues might be, you are not their punching bag, and you are certainly not obligated to accept being yelled at, woken up in the middle of the night, etc.. Please take some time to process all of this for yourself, and give some priority to your own emotional and mental well-being.
posted by rpfields at 7:09 PM on July 16, 2023 [3 favorites]
Other answers make very good points about what might be going on with both your son and his wife, and it's worth keeping an open mind and trying to view both of them with compassion. But, I hope you will give yourself the same grace and care. Whatever their issues might be, you are not their punching bag, and you are certainly not obligated to accept being yelled at, woken up in the middle of the night, etc.. Please take some time to process all of this for yourself, and give some priority to your own emotional and mental well-being.
posted by rpfields at 7:09 PM on July 16, 2023 [3 favorites]
I know it's difficult to step back and let the situation just be for now, but doing so cool things down and
Sorry for that garbled sentence at the end of my first para, above. I meant to write "doing so will allow time for things to cool down and let clarity emerge."
posted by rpfields at 7:25 PM on July 16, 2023
Sorry for that garbled sentence at the end of my first para, above. I meant to write "doing so will allow time for things to cool down and let clarity emerge."
posted by rpfields at 7:25 PM on July 16, 2023
So it does sound a bit like you are infantalizing your son and trying to maintain that relationship of parent/child with someone who is in his 30s. Asking him if he’s ready to be with someone he loves just because she is chronically ill is actually pretty insulting to him as an adult in an adult relationship with someone he lives with. It’s telling him that you don’t trust his judgment and that moreover his person isn’t worth the hassle. Many people stop having particularly close relationships with their parents because they don’t want to continue being treated like children who can’t make decisions about their own lives. That’s a pretty common problem. If you want to apologize, you will probably need to come to grips with the fact that he’s an adult who neither wants nor needs your protection. He wants someone who will see him as capable and caring and responsible. I didn’t get the sense from your question that you actually believe those things. I read that you think he’s irresponsible (playing near a drain), that he isn’t capable of running his life (his girlfriend must be manipulating him and he still takes transit even though they own a car), and that you don’t believe he is caring enough to be there for someone he loves.
See him as brave and strong and capable! It’s not about apologizing for the words you said, but about changing the way you perceive him and communicating to him that you understand how messed up it was for you to suggest that his partner isn’t worthy of his love and commitment. Ask him how to support him as an adult because you don’t want him to feel like you see him as a child. Acknowledge that he has had a rocky time and that you didn’t realize he felt that way, but that doesn’t invalidate how he felt or how he feels now.
I am telling you my fantasy wish fulfillment of some of the things I wish my parents were mature enough to say to me. I wish that they could step out of their own perspective and hear my perspective and treat me like the grownass adult that I am. Because I hear your son desperately trying to communicate with you that he’s feeling unseen and unheard by you. He probably worked up a lot of courage to have a conversation with you in that coffee shop and stepped away to the bathroom to get some moral support about what to do when you weren’t willing to engage. I am guessing this because I did that exact thing with my mom.
He wants you to do something you are uncomfortable with, which is engaging with him on a deeper level, where what he says comes in and changes something about the way you see the world and then you acknowledge that. I read a story that I’m very familiar with here, not just for myself but several of my closest friends and partners over the years. He is giving you the biggest chance he can. It’s up to you. It’s not that you said one wrong thing. It’s what that thing symbolizes about how you think about him.
posted by Bottlecap at 8:08 PM on July 16, 2023 [85 favorites]
See him as brave and strong and capable! It’s not about apologizing for the words you said, but about changing the way you perceive him and communicating to him that you understand how messed up it was for you to suggest that his partner isn’t worthy of his love and commitment. Ask him how to support him as an adult because you don’t want him to feel like you see him as a child. Acknowledge that he has had a rocky time and that you didn’t realize he felt that way, but that doesn’t invalidate how he felt or how he feels now.
I am telling you my fantasy wish fulfillment of some of the things I wish my parents were mature enough to say to me. I wish that they could step out of their own perspective and hear my perspective and treat me like the grownass adult that I am. Because I hear your son desperately trying to communicate with you that he’s feeling unseen and unheard by you. He probably worked up a lot of courage to have a conversation with you in that coffee shop and stepped away to the bathroom to get some moral support about what to do when you weren’t willing to engage. I am guessing this because I did that exact thing with my mom.
He wants you to do something you are uncomfortable with, which is engaging with him on a deeper level, where what he says comes in and changes something about the way you see the world and then you acknowledge that. I read a story that I’m very familiar with here, not just for myself but several of my closest friends and partners over the years. He is giving you the biggest chance he can. It’s up to you. It’s not that you said one wrong thing. It’s what that thing symbolizes about how you think about him.
posted by Bottlecap at 8:08 PM on July 16, 2023 [85 favorites]
Bottlecap's words are true, and hard-won, and took a lot to write. They are exquisitely insightful. I think there's a good chance they are relevant.
posted by amtho at 9:46 PM on July 16, 2023 [12 favorites]
posted by amtho at 9:46 PM on July 16, 2023 [12 favorites]
Yes, I’m going to have to agree with Bottlecap. I’m sorry, because this is going to sound harsh but mamma, you sound incredibly over involved with your adult son’s affairs and it’s clear to me that it is making him pull away.
He’s being good about not triangulating and focusing on talking about stuff just between you and him that he’s not happy about, but I’m also 90% sure there’s also an unstated “her or me” and/or “she’s not good enough for you” dynamic, (that you’ve created), that is absolutely pushing him away. And why not, most adults should pick their partner over a parent trying to do this.
As for evidence, I note how you “never said anything to Bee” about various things going on with her, but from reading your account, it’s completely obvious to me that you’re incredibly judgmental about her and looking for reasons to look down on her. I got zero indication that you were trying to be warm or kind with her from that long account. Everyone has some weird foibles if you go looking for reasons to dislike them, and if she’s got ongoing health issues, she’s probably having to be more careful of her time and energy, especially with judgmental types.
You might be interested to know that a lot of people will totally pick up on that unspoken but totally clear signs about how someone feels about you, then act accordingly. (I have British inlaws, I know all about that.) If she’s a life coach, I’m guessing her emotional intelligence is a strength.
My suggestion to you is to get some therapy for yourself and try to figure out why you’re creating an unwinnable situation of trying to pit yourself against your son’s partner, rather than making an effort with someone who seems to be sticking around. Of course, there’s always a chance that she is being abusive like some of the other commentators, but I personally doubt it, and if that is the case, therapy for you will still be helpful.
posted by ec2y at 2:20 AM on July 17, 2023 [6 favorites]
He’s being good about not triangulating and focusing on talking about stuff just between you and him that he’s not happy about, but I’m also 90% sure there’s also an unstated “her or me” and/or “she’s not good enough for you” dynamic, (that you’ve created), that is absolutely pushing him away. And why not, most adults should pick their partner over a parent trying to do this.
As for evidence, I note how you “never said anything to Bee” about various things going on with her, but from reading your account, it’s completely obvious to me that you’re incredibly judgmental about her and looking for reasons to look down on her. I got zero indication that you were trying to be warm or kind with her from that long account. Everyone has some weird foibles if you go looking for reasons to dislike them, and if she’s got ongoing health issues, she’s probably having to be more careful of her time and energy, especially with judgmental types.
You might be interested to know that a lot of people will totally pick up on that unspoken but totally clear signs about how someone feels about you, then act accordingly. (I have British inlaws, I know all about that.) If she’s a life coach, I’m guessing her emotional intelligence is a strength.
My suggestion to you is to get some therapy for yourself and try to figure out why you’re creating an unwinnable situation of trying to pit yourself against your son’s partner, rather than making an effort with someone who seems to be sticking around. Of course, there’s always a chance that she is being abusive like some of the other commentators, but I personally doubt it, and if that is the case, therapy for you will still be helpful.
posted by ec2y at 2:20 AM on July 17, 2023 [6 favorites]
Please know that you are _awesome_ for looking at this problem head-on, and for taking a big leap in asking us about it. There are many, many people and parents who would just continue on, not questioning themselves, and not trying anything novel to solve this problem. If you follow through with -any- of this advice, or try anything new that doesn't escalate the problem, then you're exceptional.
posted by amtho at 2:52 AM on July 17, 2023 [6 favorites]
posted by amtho at 2:52 AM on July 17, 2023 [6 favorites]
There seem to be two narratives in the comments above: that you are meddling, or that your son is in an abusive relationship. Both can simultaneously be true. You don't need to reject one to accept the other.
posted by DarlingBri at 3:03 AM on July 17, 2023 [29 favorites]
posted by DarlingBri at 3:03 AM on July 17, 2023 [29 favorites]
It's evident throughout your post that you don't accept that your son and his SO feel the way they feel, think the way they think, and are entitled to full autonomy to do so, whether you agree with it or not. They are adults. Your son is 30, not 3. This is something you need to work on, fully accepting that your son is a separate human being who gets to make his own choices in life, including a partner you may not like.
The fact that you sat him down by himself and asked "questions" that really weren't, so that you could convey your qualms about his relationship, is both dishonest and overstepping.
The only time it is appropriate to isolate an adult and criticize their partner is when there is clear abuse going on. And even then, you don't do it like this. You state concern for their welfare and leave lots of room for them to talk about their experiences rather than trying to manipulate them to agree with you. Then you leave the lines of communication open. If they want to avail themselves of your help, they can. If they don't, you don't push. You just remain available.
I would urge you to rewrite an account of this situation from the perspective of your son and his partner. For real, not snarky, genuinely trying to express their perspective. If you don't know how, you have some more listening to do.
You think if his partner has health issues she should never get to go on a vacation?? Seriously?
"Mind you I never said that". / "I never said that I disapproved in any way." I bet you conveyed these sentiments fine without words. Almost certainly your son and his SO understand your perceptions of them. And "I never said that" is not the defense you think it is. It's gaslighting. If someone sits across the table from you and rolls their eyes at everything you say, but never actually verbalizes their disdain, how do you feel?
You say you "lightly" brought up the SO's livelihood. But I bet you conveyed your disdain without doing it in so many words. You wrote that you had trouble talking about intimate things when your son was growing up. I believe you found ways to make yourself known without stating things in so many words.
When your son needed support as a teen you grounded him instead of finding him assessment and help for learning problems. Sure, you may not have been aware at the time of learning disabilities, but the general approach of blaming the child rather than being on his side and trying to help him succeed, is not one that fosters a good parent-child relationship. It's understandable that he would have resentments about things like that.
You say you've been paying for your mistakes for months and want to move forward, but the way to move forward is to genuinely hear him and acknowledge his fears, hurts, preferences, etc. rather than minimizing them and rationalizing away your own actions.
He's told you he "didn't feel respected." This was "a traumatic experience." Sit with that for a while, then sit with it some more without coming up with a dismissal of his pain.
Maybe listen as though he's speaking about someone else if that helps you feel less defensive. And stop with the criticizing of his SO. Maybe you'll never like her, but if you want a relationship with your son you need to at least be cordial with her, for real.
posted by Flock of Cynthiabirds at 3:46 AM on July 17, 2023 [11 favorites]
The fact that you sat him down by himself and asked "questions" that really weren't, so that you could convey your qualms about his relationship, is both dishonest and overstepping.
The only time it is appropriate to isolate an adult and criticize their partner is when there is clear abuse going on. And even then, you don't do it like this. You state concern for their welfare and leave lots of room for them to talk about their experiences rather than trying to manipulate them to agree with you. Then you leave the lines of communication open. If they want to avail themselves of your help, they can. If they don't, you don't push. You just remain available.
I would urge you to rewrite an account of this situation from the perspective of your son and his partner. For real, not snarky, genuinely trying to express their perspective. If you don't know how, you have some more listening to do.
You think if his partner has health issues she should never get to go on a vacation?? Seriously?
"Mind you I never said that". / "I never said that I disapproved in any way." I bet you conveyed these sentiments fine without words. Almost certainly your son and his SO understand your perceptions of them. And "I never said that" is not the defense you think it is. It's gaslighting. If someone sits across the table from you and rolls their eyes at everything you say, but never actually verbalizes their disdain, how do you feel?
You say you "lightly" brought up the SO's livelihood. But I bet you conveyed your disdain without doing it in so many words. You wrote that you had trouble talking about intimate things when your son was growing up. I believe you found ways to make yourself known without stating things in so many words.
When your son needed support as a teen you grounded him instead of finding him assessment and help for learning problems. Sure, you may not have been aware at the time of learning disabilities, but the general approach of blaming the child rather than being on his side and trying to help him succeed, is not one that fosters a good parent-child relationship. It's understandable that he would have resentments about things like that.
You say you've been paying for your mistakes for months and want to move forward, but the way to move forward is to genuinely hear him and acknowledge his fears, hurts, preferences, etc. rather than minimizing them and rationalizing away your own actions.
He's told you he "didn't feel respected." This was "a traumatic experience." Sit with that for a while, then sit with it some more without coming up with a dismissal of his pain.
Maybe listen as though he's speaking about someone else if that helps you feel less defensive. And stop with the criticizing of his SO. Maybe you'll never like her, but if you want a relationship with your son you need to at least be cordial with her, for real.
posted by Flock of Cynthiabirds at 3:46 AM on July 17, 2023 [11 favorites]
Not a judgement, but a potential line of reflection: Missing Missing Reasons. Perhaps he's already told you why and you haven't been able to process that information?
posted by socky_puppy at 3:47 AM on July 17, 2023 [11 favorites]
posted by socky_puppy at 3:47 AM on July 17, 2023 [11 favorites]
I think you need to find yourself a therapist and share with them your deep feelings about your son and his partner.
Your son is not the right person to talk to about your guilt and frustration and anger. Don't expect him to absolve you from past and present wrongs. He is not responsible to make you feel good. Acknowledging this works two ways: it will take pressure out of your relationship and also free you to find help elsewhere. Talking to a (good) therapist can help you in several ways: unloading the guilt you feel for things you said and did, and getting input how to cope and move forward, and someone to unload about stuff in your past and how this might have influenced your mindset now and what to do. I don't think any online contacts can do that, you need a real person in real life to talk to (but definitely not your son or daughter).
posted by 15L06 at 5:42 AM on July 17, 2023 [10 favorites]
Your son is not the right person to talk to about your guilt and frustration and anger. Don't expect him to absolve you from past and present wrongs. He is not responsible to make you feel good. Acknowledging this works two ways: it will take pressure out of your relationship and also free you to find help elsewhere. Talking to a (good) therapist can help you in several ways: unloading the guilt you feel for things you said and did, and getting input how to cope and move forward, and someone to unload about stuff in your past and how this might have influenced your mindset now and what to do. I don't think any online contacts can do that, you need a real person in real life to talk to (but definitely not your son or daughter).
posted by 15L06 at 5:42 AM on July 17, 2023 [10 favorites]
You should consider going to therapy with him. It sounds like a serious problem you both have is a lack of a shared language and framework to use in discussing hard things.
This will also force a level playing field - he can't get mad at you for not bringing up the things he wanted to talk about, you won't be in a coffee shop with people who don't need to hear your problems, he also can't leave the room for a coaching session in the middle.
You don't like Bee and you don't really trust her intentions and influence in his life. And that is fine (and maybe even fair, it's hard to say without knowing all the sides), but that needs to be a secret from now on. It's just not a topic you can discuss with him, and you're going to need to make some effort to hide how you feel. If you want to work on finding ways to like her as best you can, it's probably worth the investment.
It sounds like he is hitting a developmental point where he's processing childhood grievances, and this is where I think the therapy would be especially helpful because there are ways to hear someone describe their experience, acknowledge it without negating what they feel, and then leaving room for additional context after you've made space for their big feelings. So he feels he had to move home after your mother died - for whatever reason, that's what he understood was required or being asked of him. (Do not ask in this case if perhaps he did it because he needed somewhere to live and reverse engineered this decision which he later regretted.) Do NOT apologize that he "felt that way", that's a non-apology. Just say "I'm sorry you had to do that." You know he didn't have to, but this is about him processing his experience; if you leave space for that to happen you can probably eventually have the conversation where you discuss your own experience of having him move in with you uninvited. You may well find that by apologizing in that way, he may recognize the difference between actually having to do something and choosing to do something.
Eventually I do think you need to learn how to effectively push back and set boundaries with him as well, but first you have to let him get out all his grievances. I encourage you as much as possible to just let him do it, offer apologies or empathy for his experiences, and in a neutral moment let him know that if he wants additional context for any of those situations he can ask you for more detail.
But don't offer that context until he asks, if he ever does. Honestly his journey here sounds a little self-absorbed; most people process this stuff without needing to confront their parents this much, but there may be something really significant he's trying to get at that you do need to work with him on resolving and healing, and it's just not come out yet.
Therapy for you alone would be really useful, I think, if you can access it. I think you could use support and a neutral constructive party to process all this with.
At some point, you need to push back on unsupported claims of toxicness, but you need to develop the vocabulary and framework for discussing hard things first.
posted by Lyn Never at 6:04 AM on July 17, 2023 [6 favorites]
This will also force a level playing field - he can't get mad at you for not bringing up the things he wanted to talk about, you won't be in a coffee shop with people who don't need to hear your problems, he also can't leave the room for a coaching session in the middle.
You don't like Bee and you don't really trust her intentions and influence in his life. And that is fine (and maybe even fair, it's hard to say without knowing all the sides), but that needs to be a secret from now on. It's just not a topic you can discuss with him, and you're going to need to make some effort to hide how you feel. If you want to work on finding ways to like her as best you can, it's probably worth the investment.
It sounds like he is hitting a developmental point where he's processing childhood grievances, and this is where I think the therapy would be especially helpful because there are ways to hear someone describe their experience, acknowledge it without negating what they feel, and then leaving room for additional context after you've made space for their big feelings. So he feels he had to move home after your mother died - for whatever reason, that's what he understood was required or being asked of him. (Do not ask in this case if perhaps he did it because he needed somewhere to live and reverse engineered this decision which he later regretted.) Do NOT apologize that he "felt that way", that's a non-apology. Just say "I'm sorry you had to do that." You know he didn't have to, but this is about him processing his experience; if you leave space for that to happen you can probably eventually have the conversation where you discuss your own experience of having him move in with you uninvited. You may well find that by apologizing in that way, he may recognize the difference between actually having to do something and choosing to do something.
Eventually I do think you need to learn how to effectively push back and set boundaries with him as well, but first you have to let him get out all his grievances. I encourage you as much as possible to just let him do it, offer apologies or empathy for his experiences, and in a neutral moment let him know that if he wants additional context for any of those situations he can ask you for more detail.
But don't offer that context until he asks, if he ever does. Honestly his journey here sounds a little self-absorbed; most people process this stuff without needing to confront their parents this much, but there may be something really significant he's trying to get at that you do need to work with him on resolving and healing, and it's just not come out yet.
Therapy for you alone would be really useful, I think, if you can access it. I think you could use support and a neutral constructive party to process all this with.
At some point, you need to push back on unsupported claims of toxicness, but you need to develop the vocabulary and framework for discussing hard things first.
posted by Lyn Never at 6:04 AM on July 17, 2023 [6 favorites]
People have already made great points. You clearly tried your best as a parent in a hard situation. As for literally all parents, you did some things right and some things wrong, although you didn't realize it at the time. I second the suggestion to get therapy for yourself because you deserve the support and also you will gain insight and techniques for an improved relationship with your son. The challenge of the "I feel like I must have been a terrible parent in the past and am now" centers in on you and makes it sound hopeless. Things are never hopeless and even by asking this question you show you want to support your son in the way he needs. That's awesome and it sounds like he wants that too; you simply don't know how yet and he's struggling to determine boundaries.
I don't know if Bee is bad or if you are villianizing her; I could see both perspectives but your distain for her will poison every interaction you're having with your son. For now, try to be positive or neutral about her in your interactions with him. Listen to your son and consider that he may be right; two things can be true at once, both that you had good intentions and that the actual results were bad. But he's maintaining contact with you so clearly he wants more. As stated before, I think starting with therapy to build those communication skills and also self-confidence will be a good way to start. Once you are able to have these conversations with your son, truly listen without shutting down because you are *understandably* so upset and even filled with self-loathing, I think you will be well on your way to a good relationship with him. And as that grows, you will be able to understand his relationship with Bee as well. You may grow to appreciate her for the support she provides your son or, if she's negative, your son will find strength to self-advocate with her too and maybe even break up. The thing is that no one is perfect and it's unfair of you to expect her to be when neither you nor your son is either. We all deserve love and support and I hope you get some more soon. I believe this will all work out for the best with time and effort, I really do!!
posted by smorgasbord at 6:48 AM on July 17, 2023 [2 favorites]
I don't know if Bee is bad or if you are villianizing her; I could see both perspectives but your distain for her will poison every interaction you're having with your son. For now, try to be positive or neutral about her in your interactions with him. Listen to your son and consider that he may be right; two things can be true at once, both that you had good intentions and that the actual results were bad. But he's maintaining contact with you so clearly he wants more. As stated before, I think starting with therapy to build those communication skills and also self-confidence will be a good way to start. Once you are able to have these conversations with your son, truly listen without shutting down because you are *understandably* so upset and even filled with self-loathing, I think you will be well on your way to a good relationship with him. And as that grows, you will be able to understand his relationship with Bee as well. You may grow to appreciate her for the support she provides your son or, if she's negative, your son will find strength to self-advocate with her too and maybe even break up. The thing is that no one is perfect and it's unfair of you to expect her to be when neither you nor your son is either. We all deserve love and support and I hope you get some more soon. I believe this will all work out for the best with time and effort, I really do!!
posted by smorgasbord at 6:48 AM on July 17, 2023 [2 favorites]
Yes, I think this sounds like a pretty complicated mix of whatever's going on in his relationship with Bee, painful things about his upbringing that he's trying to come to terms with as an adult, and you needing to take a big step back from some of the ways you try to be involved in his life that he doesn't want.
I think the first step here is to completely drop talking to him about Bee until or unless he brings it up. Maybe there are things he does need to hear about his relationship with Bee, but you are not the person who can ask or tell him these things at this point in your relationship. Let that go. Hope for his happiness. Stay out of it. Be positive if you can, neutral and polite if you can't, and process your worries about her with a therapist, not your son.
So that leaves you with resolving the rupture in your own relationship. If you're willing to work on it, invite him to attend family therapy with you. You're both apparently not great at communicating and really could use some third-party support and structure to all of this.
If either of you is not willing to do that, then you may have to just dial back your contact a lot right now. You cannot unilaterally decide that you've paid enough for your inappropriate statements about his partner's medical condition and he needs to just get over it. You can feel that way, but that's a "keep it to yourself, he's the one who has to decide when he can get over it" sort of feeling. If you two can't get to a place right now to talk through this stuff then less and lighter contact moving forward may need to be what you do for a while until some of this hurt is less fresh and/or he's gotten further in his own therapy and is in a different emotional place to tackle his relationship with you differently.
posted by Stacey at 6:53 AM on July 17, 2023 [4 favorites]
I think the first step here is to completely drop talking to him about Bee until or unless he brings it up. Maybe there are things he does need to hear about his relationship with Bee, but you are not the person who can ask or tell him these things at this point in your relationship. Let that go. Hope for his happiness. Stay out of it. Be positive if you can, neutral and polite if you can't, and process your worries about her with a therapist, not your son.
So that leaves you with resolving the rupture in your own relationship. If you're willing to work on it, invite him to attend family therapy with you. You're both apparently not great at communicating and really could use some third-party support and structure to all of this.
If either of you is not willing to do that, then you may have to just dial back your contact a lot right now. You cannot unilaterally decide that you've paid enough for your inappropriate statements about his partner's medical condition and he needs to just get over it. You can feel that way, but that's a "keep it to yourself, he's the one who has to decide when he can get over it" sort of feeling. If you two can't get to a place right now to talk through this stuff then less and lighter contact moving forward may need to be what you do for a while until some of this hurt is less fresh and/or he's gotten further in his own therapy and is in a different emotional place to tackle his relationship with you differently.
posted by Stacey at 6:53 AM on July 17, 2023 [4 favorites]
Since he was close to his sister, I am wondering how that relationship is doing with his girlfriend in his life. That could also be telling in terms of her behaviors. What about other relatives? A truly loving relationship should not damage either persons' relationships with their family members and friends isolating them.
posted by maxg94 at 8:28 AM on July 17, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by maxg94 at 8:28 AM on July 17, 2023 [1 favorite]
You and Bee are polar opposites, which makes complete sense given your description of your son's upbringing.
My mother was cold and distant and seemed to thrive on triangulation among her children, which caused permanent damage to each of us individually as well as in our inter-relationships (not saying this was you, just an example of an extreme). Knowing only how much damage her approach did, but not knowing how healthy families operate, I swung the pendulum to the opposite side with my boys, who I raised solo with an excessive amount of empathy and an insistence that they be close no matter what (not like Bee exactly, but her belief in psychic stuff tracks with this end of the extreme).
As with most things, what's healthy and productive is somewhere in between. Unfortunately I didn't really grok that until my boys were grown and I started to recognize my extremes reflected in some of their choices. The pendulum swinging back. And so we beat on...
Hopefully your son will realize he's still reacting, rather than really choosing, before he commits to remaining at either end - being the mama's boy Bee sees and is pushing back against, or being the manipulated victim you see and are pushing back against.
It doesn't seem as though either of you are really giving him any agency - is it possible that both of your perspectives are at least a little bit right?
If you have another opportunity to talk with your son about his upbringing and your future relationship together, I would see if he's open to relationship counseling with you. (My boys and I have talked about this but not acted, so I'm telling myself this too!) You'd be saying "I'd like to find a way for us to connect better" which is far more respectful to another adult than "you should see a therapist and leave your girlfriend." A neutral third party trained in family dynamics could probably give you both new communication tools after a joint session or two. Objectively, your description of his upbringing and his recent, scolding description of his upbringing aren't very different; it's the impact that you see differently.
posted by headnsouth at 10:53 AM on July 17, 2023 [3 favorites]
My mother was cold and distant and seemed to thrive on triangulation among her children, which caused permanent damage to each of us individually as well as in our inter-relationships (not saying this was you, just an example of an extreme). Knowing only how much damage her approach did, but not knowing how healthy families operate, I swung the pendulum to the opposite side with my boys, who I raised solo with an excessive amount of empathy and an insistence that they be close no matter what (not like Bee exactly, but her belief in psychic stuff tracks with this end of the extreme).
As with most things, what's healthy and productive is somewhere in between. Unfortunately I didn't really grok that until my boys were grown and I started to recognize my extremes reflected in some of their choices. The pendulum swinging back. And so we beat on...
Hopefully your son will realize he's still reacting, rather than really choosing, before he commits to remaining at either end - being the mama's boy Bee sees and is pushing back against, or being the manipulated victim you see and are pushing back against.
It doesn't seem as though either of you are really giving him any agency - is it possible that both of your perspectives are at least a little bit right?
If you have another opportunity to talk with your son about his upbringing and your future relationship together, I would see if he's open to relationship counseling with you. (My boys and I have talked about this but not acted, so I'm telling myself this too!) You'd be saying "I'd like to find a way for us to connect better" which is far more respectful to another adult than "you should see a therapist and leave your girlfriend." A neutral third party trained in family dynamics could probably give you both new communication tools after a joint session or two. Objectively, your description of his upbringing and his recent, scolding description of his upbringing aren't very different; it's the impact that you see differently.
posted by headnsouth at 10:53 AM on July 17, 2023 [3 favorites]
I would suggest signing up for therapy on your own to unpack all of this. You could say to your son, "It must have been difficult for you to tell me all of that when we met up. Thank you for that. It sounds like I have some learning and reframing to do, so I've been seeing a therapist to help me with all of that."
I read a lot of "that's so unlike him" or "he's not acting like himself" or that the words and tone he's using are so different. Like you believe that your real son is the way you are used to hearing him act/speak. And this one you're interacting with right now is like a fake son with different vocabulary etc. I encourage you to see them as just different sides of your son, they are all real! I suspect when your brain is preoccupied with what is real and what is "fake" that it actually prevents you from focusing instead on the message he is trying to convey to you.
You also seem to put a lot more weight on actions and appearances (all these other things happened but... I didn't utter a single word about it!), whereas your son seems to be putting more emphasis on emotional safety, openness, and communication. In his mind, he is probably already 100% sure that the relationship is unhealthy, and his desired first step towards resolution is to lay it all out in the open and talk about it. In your mind, your son is suggesting (but not confirmed yet!) that there is trouble in your relationship, and if you were to have a lay-it-all-out-and-talk-about-it session, saying things out loud will make all the trouble real. In other words, he thinks talking about it is the solution, whereas you think talking about it just confirms the problem. I think this is another area where therapy can help, where you can practice talking about it.
Once you have had 6+ months of therapy you may tell your son, "Hey, I've learned some new ways to engage and communicate now, and I've seen the past few yrs from diff perspectives. Would you like to go to family therapy w/ me and continue on this journey together?"
Recalibrating parent-child relationships in adulthood is hard, and this situation has extra challenges. Good on you for wanting to dig deeper into this!
posted by tinydancer at 11:01 AM on July 17, 2023 [11 favorites]
I read a lot of "that's so unlike him" or "he's not acting like himself" or that the words and tone he's using are so different. Like you believe that your real son is the way you are used to hearing him act/speak. And this one you're interacting with right now is like a fake son with different vocabulary etc. I encourage you to see them as just different sides of your son, they are all real! I suspect when your brain is preoccupied with what is real and what is "fake" that it actually prevents you from focusing instead on the message he is trying to convey to you.
You also seem to put a lot more weight on actions and appearances (all these other things happened but... I didn't utter a single word about it!), whereas your son seems to be putting more emphasis on emotional safety, openness, and communication. In his mind, he is probably already 100% sure that the relationship is unhealthy, and his desired first step towards resolution is to lay it all out in the open and talk about it. In your mind, your son is suggesting (but not confirmed yet!) that there is trouble in your relationship, and if you were to have a lay-it-all-out-and-talk-about-it session, saying things out loud will make all the trouble real. In other words, he thinks talking about it is the solution, whereas you think talking about it just confirms the problem. I think this is another area where therapy can help, where you can practice talking about it.
Once you have had 6+ months of therapy you may tell your son, "Hey, I've learned some new ways to engage and communicate now, and I've seen the past few yrs from diff perspectives. Would you like to go to family therapy w/ me and continue on this journey together?"
Recalibrating parent-child relationships in adulthood is hard, and this situation has extra challenges. Good on you for wanting to dig deeper into this!
posted by tinydancer at 11:01 AM on July 17, 2023 [11 favorites]
Back before I had children, I was amazingly ready and willing to give all kinds of advice to parents about how they should raise their kids (I was working in a counseling capacity at a mental health program). It was all so obvious what these people should do!
After I had kids I was deeply embarrassed when I looked back at my attitude and some of the things I advised. Mostly, I think it's because I didn't realize how hard it is to be a parent.
Now my kids are adults and, guess what? It's still hard to be a parent, and in my experience, you *never* stop being a parent no matter how old you or your kids are.
There's some very, imo, harsh advice up above from internet strangers who undoubtedly sincerely believe what they're saying. You can go through the thread and figure out what works for you, but I get it! And I think most parents of adult kids get it - figuring out the right distance to be and stance to take is really super challenging. I don't think you need to apologize for getting it wrong, or not knowing if you're getting it wrong. You're trying your best and that's what counts.
I do think you could consider therapy, or at least some kind of support group that has other parents of adult children so that you can get feedback from people who are going through similar struggles.
Who knows how this all will work out? But take care of yourself and have compassion for yourself. This is really difficult and you're trying very hard to do the right thing!
posted by jasper411 at 4:41 PM on July 17, 2023 [9 favorites]
After I had kids I was deeply embarrassed when I looked back at my attitude and some of the things I advised. Mostly, I think it's because I didn't realize how hard it is to be a parent.
Now my kids are adults and, guess what? It's still hard to be a parent, and in my experience, you *never* stop being a parent no matter how old you or your kids are.
There's some very, imo, harsh advice up above from internet strangers who undoubtedly sincerely believe what they're saying. You can go through the thread and figure out what works for you, but I get it! And I think most parents of adult kids get it - figuring out the right distance to be and stance to take is really super challenging. I don't think you need to apologize for getting it wrong, or not knowing if you're getting it wrong. You're trying your best and that's what counts.
I do think you could consider therapy, or at least some kind of support group that has other parents of adult children so that you can get feedback from people who are going through similar struggles.
Who knows how this all will work out? But take care of yourself and have compassion for yourself. This is really difficult and you're trying very hard to do the right thing!
posted by jasper411 at 4:41 PM on July 17, 2023 [9 favorites]
painful things about his upbringing that he's trying to come to terms with as an adult
My first thought when you said your son started talking “therapy speak” not long after he became committed to a new girlfriend that he seems to love is that she is helping him confront the issues of his past, maybe by convincing him to go to therapy. If he’s thinking about and confronting experiences you never talked about it’s a new experience and new sensation that can lead to unpredictability even volatility.
Honeslty I think I have been paying for my mistake for months I want to move forward.
He’s been in pain for years, why are you making it about you? What are you doing to help and support him? Are you talking to him about the past or do you just want to ignore it?
95% of my family ignores me and it hurts. I pushed and pushed and pushed conversations with my mom until we’re mostly comfortable talking about our feelings. To me it sounds like he’s trying his best to have hard conversations with you and you’re not making any effort. When Bee got stressed at the holidays and said “she needed to get away from our family because we really don't communicate and the stress was getting to her,” and you said,”there was nothing out of the ordinary that happened?,” could you entertain the thought that maybe the ordinary isn’t great and needs adjustment? That would be a good conversation to have with your son. If you show compassion to Bee I bet your relationship to both of them will improve.
posted by bendy at 11:02 PM on July 17, 2023 [5 favorites]
My first thought when you said your son started talking “therapy speak” not long after he became committed to a new girlfriend that he seems to love is that she is helping him confront the issues of his past, maybe by convincing him to go to therapy. If he’s thinking about and confronting experiences you never talked about it’s a new experience and new sensation that can lead to unpredictability even volatility.
Honeslty I think I have been paying for my mistake for months I want to move forward.
He’s been in pain for years, why are you making it about you? What are you doing to help and support him? Are you talking to him about the past or do you just want to ignore it?
95% of my family ignores me and it hurts. I pushed and pushed and pushed conversations with my mom until we’re mostly comfortable talking about our feelings. To me it sounds like he’s trying his best to have hard conversations with you and you’re not making any effort. When Bee got stressed at the holidays and said “she needed to get away from our family because we really don't communicate and the stress was getting to her,” and you said,”there was nothing out of the ordinary that happened?,” could you entertain the thought that maybe the ordinary isn’t great and needs adjustment? That would be a good conversation to have with your son. If you show compassion to Bee I bet your relationship to both of them will improve.
posted by bendy at 11:02 PM on July 17, 2023 [5 favorites]
it’s possible your son is being self-righteous and unreasonable all on his own, and that he picked this woman because they have these things in common. respecting his adult agency doesn’t mean his memories or his behavior are accurate or good, it means neither you nor any other woman is to blame for them. as his mother this may be more painful to contemplate than the idea that you did something unforgivably wrong, but it’s likely.
it’s irresistible to fight with your parents as an adult because you’re always right. always always always. you can see a lot of responses here that are not about you or things that you said, they are shouting into a big black box labeled MOTHER. lots of people with full power and agency to cut off parents who fully deserve it never do so, because having someone in your life who is always in the wrong is intoxicating. I say this as someone who is not a mother and who blamed my own mother for plenty. I was right to do it.
you have got to rid yourself of any need for you & your children to agree on the big important things. you need to be able to disagree with him without bottling it all up or yelling and you need enough detachment to be able to hear him rewriting recent history without becoming superior or a despairing martyr about it. even if he is having troubles he may find it intolerable to have it seen and analyzed by you. Don’t see me is a child’s demand but it feels like a demand for adult freedom. regardless, it’s a very understandable desire and as long as his life’s not in danger you should respect it.
posted by queenofbithynia at 7:20 AM on July 18, 2023 [4 favorites]
it’s irresistible to fight with your parents as an adult because you’re always right. always always always. you can see a lot of responses here that are not about you or things that you said, they are shouting into a big black box labeled MOTHER. lots of people with full power and agency to cut off parents who fully deserve it never do so, because having someone in your life who is always in the wrong is intoxicating. I say this as someone who is not a mother and who blamed my own mother for plenty. I was right to do it.
you have got to rid yourself of any need for you & your children to agree on the big important things. you need to be able to disagree with him without bottling it all up or yelling and you need enough detachment to be able to hear him rewriting recent history without becoming superior or a despairing martyr about it. even if he is having troubles he may find it intolerable to have it seen and analyzed by you. Don’t see me is a child’s demand but it feels like a demand for adult freedom. regardless, it’s a very understandable desire and as long as his life’s not in danger you should respect it.
posted by queenofbithynia at 7:20 AM on July 18, 2023 [4 favorites]
Best answer: I mean, it is true that you're infantilizing him a bit. You did overstep when you talked about his SO's illness, and in general you seem to be having trouble treating him like a fellow adult who can manage his own life and is worthy of your support, as opposed to your darling boy who needs your guidance and protection. These are mistakes you're making, but these are pretty harmless mistakes that, indeed, most parents make. For two decades in the recent past, he actually WAS your darling boy who needed your guidance and protection. Old habits die hard. Your brain isn't as plastic as it used to be. It's taking you some time to learn to unfailingly always treat him as a fellow autonomous adult. Especially when you see him unhappy, it triggers your mommy brain. Practically every parent in the world makes this mistake.
And here's the thing, HE is also treating you as if you still have total power over him like you did when he was a kid. Otherwise your mistakes wouldn't bother him nearly as much. Right? If one of his friends had said those exact same things to him, he would have said, "Dude, what the fuck? Shut up and butt out of my business, jackass! Jesus. You're being inappropriate as fuck!" and then they would both be grumpy for a second, and then the friend would say, "Sorry, bro, I was out of line," and your son would be like, "SMH, jeez, what a busybody," and the next day the friend would make a self-deprecating joke that shows he gets it, and your son would laugh grudgingly, and the whole thing would blow over, just like that.
But it wasn't a friend who stepped over the line. It was you. And you're his mother. He has two whole decades' worth of memories and training and priming to see you as someone who has control over him. His insecurity about his autonomy is easily triggered by you in particular. When you infantilize him, he gets very upset and starts spiraling and gets his hackles up because how dare you make him feel like this.
He doesn't know how to treat you like just another fellow adult just as much as you don't know how to treat him as a regular fellow adult. BOTH of you are still learning. And that's okay. This is a process every parent goes through with every child who grows up.
And you're doing just fine, because you're not abusing your son or doing anything actually harmful. You are willing to apologize and own up to your mistakes. And heck, at the end of the day, it's not that big a deal. You're just being annoying in the typical way that almost all parents are towards grown children.
But the concerning thing is, he's not responding in the typical grown child fashion of yore - which might have been to yell at you and storm off and then begrudgingly accept your apology with poor grace, but take your peace offering of homemade brownies with an endearing amount of unabashed greed. These days the zeitgeist is different. He has people left right and center on every app and every social media and every forum telling him that you are toxic and he needs to cut you out of your life. And the first step towards the goal of cutting you out is to tell you, using the typical internet style (pseudo) therapy speak, that your behavior was "boundary crossing". It's a standard move straight from the internet advice manual for dealing with parents. It comes right before accusing you of not reacting well to his communication about your boundary violation, telling you that it proves you are a toxic narcissist, and therefore he will be setting a firm "boundary" of no contact with you.
I call this pseudo-therapy speak because no competent therapist would ever have told him to handle the situation the way he did. A competent therapist would mainly focus on helping him feel more secure in his own adult autonomy, reminding him that you actually don't have any power over him, he's not a child anymore, and therefore he doesn't need to feel so threatened and thrown off his balance by your attempt to infantilize him. That would help to calm him down and take your mistake less personally, less seriously. A competent therapist would have helped him solve the real problem without blowing up the relationship, by saying to you something like, "Mom, give it a rest, you're treating me like a child," in a manner and tone that leaves you room to apologize and back off and move on with the normal relationship. A competent therapist would understand that opening up a serious talk about boundary violation over this would be *massive* overkill, like prescribing chemotherapy to someone who has a cold.
Like, seriously, he said the words: "Worrying about saying the right or wrong thing with omitting and filtering is emotionally dishonest." Like emotional honesty is the standard between you both? HE doesn't even want that, he's been telling you all along he wants more distance. It would be hysterical if it wasn't so tragic.
So all this is to say, I doubt he's getting any of this from actual therapists. And that's why you are right to be worried.
As a mother of an adult child who has been accused of boundary violations, you have VERY few (if any) ways to respond that won't be interpreted negatively. You already found this out, and you're going to keep finding the same no matter what you do or say.
Even if you say something textbook perfect like, "I'm sorry, you're right, the things I've said to you are rather infantilizing. I'm going to do my best to work on this and change my attitude. Please forgive me," most people on the internet will tell him not to trust you, that this is just you saying the right words to lure him back into your life, that talk is cheap and actions are what count, and of course he shouldn't risk getting poisoned by more of your toxicity by exposing himself to your actions anymore.
But you should try saying that anyway (and of course really do what you promise), and hope that he manages to see some humanity in you despite the zeitgeist. I'm really sorry. It's not fair and it's not right, but these are the times we live in. Someday we will look back at the "zomg boundary violation!!11!!eleven!" mania of the 2020s as temporary societal insanity, like Kony 2012 or pointy bras. I hope we grow out of this phase soon.
posted by MiraK at 2:30 PM on July 18, 2023 [3 favorites]
And here's the thing, HE is also treating you as if you still have total power over him like you did when he was a kid. Otherwise your mistakes wouldn't bother him nearly as much. Right? If one of his friends had said those exact same things to him, he would have said, "Dude, what the fuck? Shut up and butt out of my business, jackass! Jesus. You're being inappropriate as fuck!" and then they would both be grumpy for a second, and then the friend would say, "Sorry, bro, I was out of line," and your son would be like, "SMH, jeez, what a busybody," and the next day the friend would make a self-deprecating joke that shows he gets it, and your son would laugh grudgingly, and the whole thing would blow over, just like that.
But it wasn't a friend who stepped over the line. It was you. And you're his mother. He has two whole decades' worth of memories and training and priming to see you as someone who has control over him. His insecurity about his autonomy is easily triggered by you in particular. When you infantilize him, he gets very upset and starts spiraling and gets his hackles up because how dare you make him feel like this.
He doesn't know how to treat you like just another fellow adult just as much as you don't know how to treat him as a regular fellow adult. BOTH of you are still learning. And that's okay. This is a process every parent goes through with every child who grows up.
And you're doing just fine, because you're not abusing your son or doing anything actually harmful. You are willing to apologize and own up to your mistakes. And heck, at the end of the day, it's not that big a deal. You're just being annoying in the typical way that almost all parents are towards grown children.
But the concerning thing is, he's not responding in the typical grown child fashion of yore - which might have been to yell at you and storm off and then begrudgingly accept your apology with poor grace, but take your peace offering of homemade brownies with an endearing amount of unabashed greed. These days the zeitgeist is different. He has people left right and center on every app and every social media and every forum telling him that you are toxic and he needs to cut you out of your life. And the first step towards the goal of cutting you out is to tell you, using the typical internet style (pseudo) therapy speak, that your behavior was "boundary crossing". It's a standard move straight from the internet advice manual for dealing with parents. It comes right before accusing you of not reacting well to his communication about your boundary violation, telling you that it proves you are a toxic narcissist, and therefore he will be setting a firm "boundary" of no contact with you.
I call this pseudo-therapy speak because no competent therapist would ever have told him to handle the situation the way he did. A competent therapist would mainly focus on helping him feel more secure in his own adult autonomy, reminding him that you actually don't have any power over him, he's not a child anymore, and therefore he doesn't need to feel so threatened and thrown off his balance by your attempt to infantilize him. That would help to calm him down and take your mistake less personally, less seriously. A competent therapist would have helped him solve the real problem without blowing up the relationship, by saying to you something like, "Mom, give it a rest, you're treating me like a child," in a manner and tone that leaves you room to apologize and back off and move on with the normal relationship. A competent therapist would understand that opening up a serious talk about boundary violation over this would be *massive* overkill, like prescribing chemotherapy to someone who has a cold.
Like, seriously, he said the words: "Worrying about saying the right or wrong thing with omitting and filtering is emotionally dishonest." Like emotional honesty is the standard between you both? HE doesn't even want that, he's been telling you all along he wants more distance. It would be hysterical if it wasn't so tragic.
So all this is to say, I doubt he's getting any of this from actual therapists. And that's why you are right to be worried.
As a mother of an adult child who has been accused of boundary violations, you have VERY few (if any) ways to respond that won't be interpreted negatively. You already found this out, and you're going to keep finding the same no matter what you do or say.
Even if you say something textbook perfect like, "I'm sorry, you're right, the things I've said to you are rather infantilizing. I'm going to do my best to work on this and change my attitude. Please forgive me," most people on the internet will tell him not to trust you, that this is just you saying the right words to lure him back into your life, that talk is cheap and actions are what count, and of course he shouldn't risk getting poisoned by more of your toxicity by exposing himself to your actions anymore.
But you should try saying that anyway (and of course really do what you promise), and hope that he manages to see some humanity in you despite the zeitgeist. I'm really sorry. It's not fair and it's not right, but these are the times we live in. Someday we will look back at the "zomg boundary violation!!11!!eleven!" mania of the 2020s as temporary societal insanity, like Kony 2012 or pointy bras. I hope we grow out of this phase soon.
posted by MiraK at 2:30 PM on July 18, 2023 [3 favorites]
Best answer: I think there's a couple things here, and as someone said, it's neither one thing nor the other.
I know a couple who has an adult son, where the mom is a little like you - still concerned about her son, the choices he makes, whether he is safe or not. She, like you, wanted him to do more and be more. In some ways, he tends to act in rebellion - he makes riskier choices, I think, to prove his independence. He's made risky choices in life and risky choices in romance.
Your son appears to be making risky choices romantically. People who act as psychics for money are largely, as someone mentioned, con artists. They are people whose livelihood depends on misleading other people about their hopes and dreams for money, and in some cases, on separating people from other wise influences.
I think there's also some cross expectations - so for example, the trip. Taking things at face value, she has some sort of illness that is exacerbated by her period. You feel like she shouldn't have come given that - I think the answer on that depends on the seriousness of the relationship. If she was his *wife* of course you would expect her to come regardless, and if she was his *casual girlfriend* you would expect her to come only if her presence was going to be a net positive for everyone. But the truth is, she's somewhere in the middle, and where she feels she is and where you feel she is is likely very different.
I don't think that it's necessarily wrong to have an emotional conversation with your adult son and talk about the issues and see if he's up for the difficulty of being with someone with chronic illness - that's a conversation I might have with my daughter. But there's a difference, in that my daughter and I have had deep emotional conversations all our life, so this wouldn't be out of the ordinary. For you and your son, you don't usually have those conversations; I'm sure he took it as criticism and may not have known how to handle it. And he likely went back to Bee with his overwhelm, who then translated the situation into her own view, and came up with language for him to bring back to you about why he's upset. It is probably something that's also designed for you to look bad, because she clearly feels as though there's some sort of competition.
But also, bringing it back to the relating issue from the beginning of my statement, when the mom has criticized the romantic choices, it has never resulted in what she was hoping for: a breakup. It just damaged their relationship. You, as the mom, really can't pick your kid's romantic choices *even if you really want to and even if you're right*.
So yeah, lay off talking about Bee. Tell him you will talk about *your* parenting if he wants to, your past parenting and his growing up, but you're not going to address the girlfriend situation, you have differing opinions but that's fine.
posted by corb at 9:08 AM on August 1, 2023 [3 favorites]
I know a couple who has an adult son, where the mom is a little like you - still concerned about her son, the choices he makes, whether he is safe or not. She, like you, wanted him to do more and be more. In some ways, he tends to act in rebellion - he makes riskier choices, I think, to prove his independence. He's made risky choices in life and risky choices in romance.
Your son appears to be making risky choices romantically. People who act as psychics for money are largely, as someone mentioned, con artists. They are people whose livelihood depends on misleading other people about their hopes and dreams for money, and in some cases, on separating people from other wise influences.
I think there's also some cross expectations - so for example, the trip. Taking things at face value, she has some sort of illness that is exacerbated by her period. You feel like she shouldn't have come given that - I think the answer on that depends on the seriousness of the relationship. If she was his *wife* of course you would expect her to come regardless, and if she was his *casual girlfriend* you would expect her to come only if her presence was going to be a net positive for everyone. But the truth is, she's somewhere in the middle, and where she feels she is and where you feel she is is likely very different.
I don't think that it's necessarily wrong to have an emotional conversation with your adult son and talk about the issues and see if he's up for the difficulty of being with someone with chronic illness - that's a conversation I might have with my daughter. But there's a difference, in that my daughter and I have had deep emotional conversations all our life, so this wouldn't be out of the ordinary. For you and your son, you don't usually have those conversations; I'm sure he took it as criticism and may not have known how to handle it. And he likely went back to Bee with his overwhelm, who then translated the situation into her own view, and came up with language for him to bring back to you about why he's upset. It is probably something that's also designed for you to look bad, because she clearly feels as though there's some sort of competition.
But also, bringing it back to the relating issue from the beginning of my statement, when the mom has criticized the romantic choices, it has never resulted in what she was hoping for: a breakup. It just damaged their relationship. You, as the mom, really can't pick your kid's romantic choices *even if you really want to and even if you're right*.
So yeah, lay off talking about Bee. Tell him you will talk about *your* parenting if he wants to, your past parenting and his growing up, but you're not going to address the girlfriend situation, you have differing opinions but that's fine.
posted by corb at 9:08 AM on August 1, 2023 [3 favorites]
Response by poster: Thank you. We did go to counseling and he said what his issues were which related to communication and things he held onto from the past. I listened openly and he did the same. We left feeling much better and agreed to work on communicating. That was our last contact. As I sit here writing this I have just received a text saying he won't be doing Thanksgiving or Christmas. We have not seen each other for 3 months....actually since last therapy session. He cancelled any plan ww made to have lunch, coffee, or dinner. I'm at a loss. I don't even know how to respond...my daughter is mad he couldn't call to say this...I'm just hurt.
posted by irish01 at 11:02 AM on November 19, 2023
posted by irish01 at 11:02 AM on November 19, 2023
Response by poster: Thank you. We did go to counseling and he said what his issues were which related to communication and things he held onto from the past. I listened openly and he did the same. We left feeling much better and agreed to work on communicating. That was our last contact. As I sit here writing this I have just received a text saying he won't be doing Thanksgiving or Christmas. We have not seen each other for 3 months....actually since last therapy session. He cancelled any plan ww made to have lunch, coffee, or dinner. I'm at a loss....my daughter is mad he couldn't pick up a phone to say this...I'm just hurt.
posted by irish01 at 11:08 AM on November 19, 2023
posted by irish01 at 11:08 AM on November 19, 2023
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This has a lot of layers, but it's clear that not only do you care a lot, you also are thinking through the details and are open to learning new things. That's a strong sign that there's hope. Great hope.
We can't know enough to say do X thing to fix the situation. A lot depends on your son, and what he will find meaningful. If you could talk interactively with a good therapist (a good one, and maybe one that specializes in family issues), that could give you some real help.
Still, other people's experiences might give some examples that resonate with you, and ideas to try.
For me, a real sticking point is when someone who has made a mistake that hurts me doesn't just focus on that with me and admit that they made a mistake, or that they can see that their actions had a damaging effect, and that they see that they can and want to do better in the future.
Of course you have to move on eventually; you both do. But you probably can't move on together unless he is 100% clear that you see his pain, and that you have learned from the experience, and that you will act differently.
The details about his girlfriend, him acting differently, her guardedness toward you -- these are heartbreaking, but it would also be heartbreaking for him to betray his real love for her. He can't do that and still be himself. If someday he does, it will be because he alone knows what is in his heart, and honestly, he knows her in ways no one else ever will. They are bonded with each other, and the intricate, strong, complete nature of that bond (yes, even though they are not married or engaged -- even after knowing someone a few weeks and liking them, there is a unique bond) -- that bond is easy to underestimate, but if you can really respect that he's full of that bond and that love, then you might have an easier time showing him that you truly respect them both.
Mind you - I am not saying you behaved other than lovingly. It's clear that your intentions have always been good.
posted by amtho at 4:31 PM on July 16, 2023 [2 favorites]