How best to protect a child when my ex brings him into our arguments?
October 24, 2014 6:19 PM Subscribe
How should I buffer a child from the stress of divorced parents' arguments when my ex-wife is extremely open with him about adult stresses and about what she wants?
My son is 9. His mom and I have been apart for 7 years, and that in itself doesn't seem to be a big stressor. When my ex-wife decided she hated our city and wanted to move from where we are to city x, she discussed it with him first, and then arranged that the two of them would ask me: "Yes, we can move, as long as Daddy says it's okay." "Dad, can we move there?" The fallout was really bad. There was a lot of yelling. He felt it as a serious conflict between us, he still remembers it (and brought it up with his own pediatrician the other day as one of a few sources of anxiety) and it (in addition to some really serious mom job stress that she was very open to him about) led to a very serious regression that we're deep into. (e.g., scared to be one room apart from me in our apartment, if there's no line of sight.)
Today's argument is that she's asking me for a large portion of the holiday break. (Our mediation agreement is to alternate, though sometimes I've gotten substantial portions of her turns when she's had to work. My preference is to give each other a few days in the off years, though she actually fought hard against me to not split the winter breaks when we did our mediation, which, at least to read it, is completely enlightened and equitable.)
I told her it was too much to fit with my family's plans and suggested a very short slice would be okay if she could fly him out to us. She said "Fine, I'm not even going to take him for Xmas if it's just for 2 days!" and hung up on me. When I called to say goodnight to my son he immediately said "Dad, I wanna do 60 percent at your family and 40 percent at mom's," to which I said, "okay! thanks for telling me," and changed the topic to his day. (So clearly she had a discussion about it with him.)
I'm practicing mindfulness and doing okay at dropping stuff, but... Help!
I'm not sure if it quite informs the question, but I also want to bring into the picture the openness she has with him about her other stresses (like telling him that she'll get fired, that she'll get terrible grades in her masters program, that she got attacked by a psych patient and they had to tie him down, and all about various things she sees in the ER) since this kind of over-openness really feels to me of-a-kind with the way she discusses our negotiations with him. I cannot even ask her to keep something private from him. She will even tell him about birthday presents I haven't given yet if she feels like there's something wrong with how I'm doing it. She grew up in a very difficult family, and I think one of the many issues she had growing up was feeling betrayed about some things her parents kept from her, even to the point of resenting how old they let her get before they admitted that Santa didn't bring the presents. I want to treat her with the compassion that needs, and I thikn I do in many ways (and I think that helps my son to see.) but still, do you have thoughts about how to talk to him about it.
Confessions: One thing in the "I tried, and regret" column is that I told him (mostly in reference to the conversation about moving) "if your mom talks to you about something important before she and I have agreed about it, you can pretty much figure it's not real." I'll often say simply "that's something your mom and I have to discuss." I don't know. I'm flailing here. Are there some best practices?
My son is 9. His mom and I have been apart for 7 years, and that in itself doesn't seem to be a big stressor. When my ex-wife decided she hated our city and wanted to move from where we are to city x, she discussed it with him first, and then arranged that the two of them would ask me: "Yes, we can move, as long as Daddy says it's okay." "Dad, can we move there?" The fallout was really bad. There was a lot of yelling. He felt it as a serious conflict between us, he still remembers it (and brought it up with his own pediatrician the other day as one of a few sources of anxiety) and it (in addition to some really serious mom job stress that she was very open to him about) led to a very serious regression that we're deep into. (e.g., scared to be one room apart from me in our apartment, if there's no line of sight.)
Today's argument is that she's asking me for a large portion of the holiday break. (Our mediation agreement is to alternate, though sometimes I've gotten substantial portions of her turns when she's had to work. My preference is to give each other a few days in the off years, though she actually fought hard against me to not split the winter breaks when we did our mediation, which, at least to read it, is completely enlightened and equitable.)
I told her it was too much to fit with my family's plans and suggested a very short slice would be okay if she could fly him out to us. She said "Fine, I'm not even going to take him for Xmas if it's just for 2 days!" and hung up on me. When I called to say goodnight to my son he immediately said "Dad, I wanna do 60 percent at your family and 40 percent at mom's," to which I said, "okay! thanks for telling me," and changed the topic to his day. (So clearly she had a discussion about it with him.)
I'm practicing mindfulness and doing okay at dropping stuff, but... Help!
I'm not sure if it quite informs the question, but I also want to bring into the picture the openness she has with him about her other stresses (like telling him that she'll get fired, that she'll get terrible grades in her masters program, that she got attacked by a psych patient and they had to tie him down, and all about various things she sees in the ER) since this kind of over-openness really feels to me of-a-kind with the way she discusses our negotiations with him. I cannot even ask her to keep something private from him. She will even tell him about birthday presents I haven't given yet if she feels like there's something wrong with how I'm doing it. She grew up in a very difficult family, and I think one of the many issues she had growing up was feeling betrayed about some things her parents kept from her, even to the point of resenting how old they let her get before they admitted that Santa didn't bring the presents. I want to treat her with the compassion that needs, and I thikn I do in many ways (and I think that helps my son to see.) but still, do you have thoughts about how to talk to him about it.
Confessions: One thing in the "I tried, and regret" column is that I told him (mostly in reference to the conversation about moving) "if your mom talks to you about something important before she and I have agreed about it, you can pretty much figure it's not real." I'll often say simply "that's something your mom and I have to discuss." I don't know. I'm flailing here. Are there some best practices?
My first thought is to read your custody agreement. There may be something in there regarding how the two of you are allowed to talk (or not talk) about each other. Then go back to your lawyer and/or mediator to see if you can work out a civilized agreement over what can and cannot be said about the other parent in front of your child.
Pretty much, the judge did not care what we did when my ex and I split (we had joint custody), as long as we worked it out equitably and did not argue. What was crucial is that the two of us did not argue. He never said he "had" to have him during Christmas break and then later when he got older and he was living at his dad's, he came by me and also in the summers. It was more due to economics than anything else and once he was past tween years, he had more of a say, of course.
Since there is argument here and your son seems to be affected, I would go back to the drawing board and outline something about both talking privately with each other over agreements before informing your son. Even divorced, united parents will make him more comfortable than the uncertainty and arguing. You both may have a point, but even if something is in writing, sticking to the letter of the law at the point of harming your son is not that great. I'm sure what he really wants is love, reassurance and peace between the two of you.
posted by Marie Mon Dieu at 7:22 PM on October 24, 2014 [1 favorite]
Pretty much, the judge did not care what we did when my ex and I split (we had joint custody), as long as we worked it out equitably and did not argue. What was crucial is that the two of us did not argue. He never said he "had" to have him during Christmas break and then later when he got older and he was living at his dad's, he came by me and also in the summers. It was more due to economics than anything else and once he was past tween years, he had more of a say, of course.
Since there is argument here and your son seems to be affected, I would go back to the drawing board and outline something about both talking privately with each other over agreements before informing your son. Even divorced, united parents will make him more comfortable than the uncertainty and arguing. You both may have a point, but even if something is in writing, sticking to the letter of the law at the point of harming your son is not that great. I'm sure what he really wants is love, reassurance and peace between the two of you.
posted by Marie Mon Dieu at 7:22 PM on October 24, 2014 [1 favorite]
My mother worked in the ER when I was a child, younger than your son even, and I remember her coming home and telling us stories about it. I was fascinated by them, particularly the ones in which people tried to off themselves and failed. I also turned out just fine--a little fascinated with morbid things for a time, but otherwise fine. Your kid will be fine, too.
I cannot even ask her to keep something private from him. She will even tell him about birthday presents I haven't given yet if she feels like there's something wrong with how I'm doing it.
But: If you can't keep a secret or keep something private, why would you trust another person to do so? Don't ask your ex to do something you can't do. Don't tell her about your birthday presents ahead of time. Problem solved.
I want to treat her with the compassion that needs, and I thikn I do in many ways (and I think that helps my son to see.) but still, do you have thoughts about how to talk to him about it.
It's a little bit strange that this is the one super typo-laden sentence in your question. Paging Dr. Freud.
But aside from that, what is it that you want to talk to him about exactly? Are you looking for a way to tell him that you try to treat his mother with compassion because you think she's nuts? Or what? I don't understand.
How should I buffer a child from the stress of divorced parents' arguments when my ex-wife is extremely open with him about adult stresses and about what she wants?
You can't control her behavior, but you can control your own. Stop arguing in front of your kid. Stop bad-mouthing his mother when he's in the room (or ever, if you can). Stop adding to his stress by arguing with and criticizing his mother. Start finding good things to say about her to him. Start complimenting her on being a graduate student and working and raising a child. Start trying to make his life easier and less stressful by making her life easier and less stressful.
Be the better person.
posted by GoLikeHellMachine at 7:25 PM on October 24, 2014 [7 favorites]
I cannot even ask her to keep something private from him. She will even tell him about birthday presents I haven't given yet if she feels like there's something wrong with how I'm doing it.
But: If you can't keep a secret or keep something private, why would you trust another person to do so? Don't ask your ex to do something you can't do. Don't tell her about your birthday presents ahead of time. Problem solved.
I want to treat her with the compassion that needs, and I thikn I do in many ways (and I think that helps my son to see.) but still, do you have thoughts about how to talk to him about it.
It's a little bit strange that this is the one super typo-laden sentence in your question. Paging Dr. Freud.
But aside from that, what is it that you want to talk to him about exactly? Are you looking for a way to tell him that you try to treat his mother with compassion because you think she's nuts? Or what? I don't understand.
How should I buffer a child from the stress of divorced parents' arguments when my ex-wife is extremely open with him about adult stresses and about what she wants?
You can't control her behavior, but you can control your own. Stop arguing in front of your kid. Stop bad-mouthing his mother when he's in the room (or ever, if you can). Stop adding to his stress by arguing with and criticizing his mother. Start finding good things to say about her to him. Start complimenting her on being a graduate student and working and raising a child. Start trying to make his life easier and less stressful by making her life easier and less stressful.
Be the better person.
posted by GoLikeHellMachine at 7:25 PM on October 24, 2014 [7 favorites]
I think your ex was being manipulative when she went through your son to try and get the holiday arrangements changed. That being said, you can't control what she tells your son, but you can refuse to use your son as a bargaining tool. I think you handled the situation well but it might help also to reiterate to your son that you will work it out with his mother and that he shouldn't worry about it because it is not his responsibility to figure this out.
Just to add, I think that parents sharing their stresses and concerns with their children is a tricky issue that you can't just brush aside. Children are not their parents' therapists and should not be treated as such. My parents are divorced and my mother constantly over shares. I felt obligated to act every time she complained about being fired or that people are treating her poorly at work or that my dad is being difficult towards her which led to a lot of anxiety and feelings of helplessness on my part because I was a child that could do absolutely nothing.
In this regard, I think the best thing that you can do is to keep your son out of arguments and to emphasize that he has no role in your guys' relationship with each other. Also, do your best to keep things civil - no yelling!
posted by cyml at 7:30 PM on October 24, 2014 [10 favorites]
Just to add, I think that parents sharing their stresses and concerns with their children is a tricky issue that you can't just brush aside. Children are not their parents' therapists and should not be treated as such. My parents are divorced and my mother constantly over shares. I felt obligated to act every time she complained about being fired or that people are treating her poorly at work or that my dad is being difficult towards her which led to a lot of anxiety and feelings of helplessness on my part because I was a child that could do absolutely nothing.
In this regard, I think the best thing that you can do is to keep your son out of arguments and to emphasize that he has no role in your guys' relationship with each other. Also, do your best to keep things civil - no yelling!
posted by cyml at 7:30 PM on October 24, 2014 [10 favorites]
Best answer: I'm not a parent, much less a divorced one, but as the child of divorced parents, I do think it's completely wrong that she keeps pulling him into arguments.
"That's something your mom and I have to discuss" sounds good to me. So does "thanks for telling me." He has met her request to ask you, so he can feel guilt free if she doesn't get what she wants.
Basically, I think you're in a sucky situation that no response to him will really make easy. Keeping him front and center (e.g., focusing on "how do I support this kid in this situation" more than on her) is about all you can do.
You might think about what approach will be useful for helping him with the other things she shares, like "your mom is good at solving problems" or even "that sounds like the kind of 'adult problem' that it's hard for a kid to help with." Being quick to say "don't worry, it's not your problem" borders on minimizing / refusing to hear about / being callously unconcerned about the things he's sharing, so I'd do that only after being sure to validate his feelings (e.g., that it's alarming / worrying / whatever to hear that XYZ happened or might happen). You might have to do a lot of listening. It's not his job to save her from getting fired or whatever, but she is sharing these scary things with him, and he's going to need adult support in figuring out how to navigate his feelings and obligations related to that. I think I'd just keep subtly helping him let go of feeling responsible by (first validating that it would be scary to hear, then) talking about how his mom will likely be able to find a good path for her and him. If it's too hard for you to provide support like that, given the history, a counselor for him could be helpful.
posted by salvia at 7:36 PM on October 24, 2014 [23 favorites]
"That's something your mom and I have to discuss" sounds good to me. So does "thanks for telling me." He has met her request to ask you, so he can feel guilt free if she doesn't get what she wants.
Basically, I think you're in a sucky situation that no response to him will really make easy. Keeping him front and center (e.g., focusing on "how do I support this kid in this situation" more than on her) is about all you can do.
You might think about what approach will be useful for helping him with the other things she shares, like "your mom is good at solving problems" or even "that sounds like the kind of 'adult problem' that it's hard for a kid to help with." Being quick to say "don't worry, it's not your problem" borders on minimizing / refusing to hear about / being callously unconcerned about the things he's sharing, so I'd do that only after being sure to validate his feelings (e.g., that it's alarming / worrying / whatever to hear that XYZ happened or might happen). You might have to do a lot of listening. It's not his job to save her from getting fired or whatever, but she is sharing these scary things with him, and he's going to need adult support in figuring out how to navigate his feelings and obligations related to that. I think I'd just keep subtly helping him let go of feeling responsible by (first validating that it would be scary to hear, then) talking about how his mom will likely be able to find a good path for her and him. If it's too hard for you to provide support like that, given the history, a counselor for him could be helpful.
posted by salvia at 7:36 PM on October 24, 2014 [23 favorites]
Response by poster: - our mediation agreement is clear and excellent:
Both [lady] and [guy] agree that it is important for them to maintain communication with each other about their child and will continue to work toward that end. They each agree to communicate with each other as full partners in the parenting of [kid] and to speak to each other in a respectful and inclusive way. They are each committed to supporting their child’s relationship with the other parent.
Communication Around Sensitive Issues
Both parties agree that, in the best interests of their child, all Court related, financial, and any discussion of other such sensitive issues shall occur at a time when he is not present. These discussions shall not occur at times of exchange or during telephone visits with their child. Both parties further agree that they shall not make any disparaging remarks about the other parent when [kid] is present.
- I cannot ask for private conversations. e.g., I asked several times to speak about how he is doing emotionally prior to a parent-teacher conference, and she refused.
- I told her about the present in order to make sure they didn't already have one or have one coming from another relative.
- I don't want to change the agreement, which is fine both regarding communication and vacation. (I'd like it to be carried out, including the communication rules, but that's not what this question is about.) I mostly want help talking to my son when he comes and says he decided he should spend a large chunk of our time with his mom's family. (It would really be cut short the way his mom suggested, because of when my other family members can be there.)
- I have a problem with yelling at him, when the yelling is really out of anger directed at his mom. The yelling between mom and dad, in front of him, is coming from her. In the most salient instance of the moving episode, we were travelling together, I was insisting he sit still to hear a lecture after a bit of bad behavior, and she was yelling at me that she was going to leave me there.
- On bad-mouthing, I mentioned a comment I made that I didn't like, but I think I am very good there. I compliment her a lot, and sincerely mean it, often, both in front of him to her, to her alone, and with just him talking about her, on things like how hard she works, or if she has a special accomplishment at work or school. I know I sometimes slip hints with my face or too-long-delayed response that I disagree with an action she took that he's mentioned, but I'm pretty good about that.
posted by kroshka at 7:53 PM on October 24, 2014 [1 favorite]
Both [lady] and [guy] agree that it is important for them to maintain communication with each other about their child and will continue to work toward that end. They each agree to communicate with each other as full partners in the parenting of [kid] and to speak to each other in a respectful and inclusive way. They are each committed to supporting their child’s relationship with the other parent.
Communication Around Sensitive Issues
Both parties agree that, in the best interests of their child, all Court related, financial, and any discussion of other such sensitive issues shall occur at a time when he is not present. These discussions shall not occur at times of exchange or during telephone visits with their child. Both parties further agree that they shall not make any disparaging remarks about the other parent when [kid] is present.
- I cannot ask for private conversations. e.g., I asked several times to speak about how he is doing emotionally prior to a parent-teacher conference, and she refused.
- I told her about the present in order to make sure they didn't already have one or have one coming from another relative.
- I don't want to change the agreement, which is fine both regarding communication and vacation. (I'd like it to be carried out, including the communication rules, but that's not what this question is about.) I mostly want help talking to my son when he comes and says he decided he should spend a large chunk of our time with his mom's family. (It would really be cut short the way his mom suggested, because of when my other family members can be there.)
- I have a problem with yelling at him, when the yelling is really out of anger directed at his mom. The yelling between mom and dad, in front of him, is coming from her. In the most salient instance of the moving episode, we were travelling together, I was insisting he sit still to hear a lecture after a bit of bad behavior, and she was yelling at me that she was going to leave me there.
- On bad-mouthing, I mentioned a comment I made that I didn't like, but I think I am very good there. I compliment her a lot, and sincerely mean it, often, both in front of him to her, to her alone, and with just him talking about her, on things like how hard she works, or if she has a special accomplishment at work or school. I know I sometimes slip hints with my face or too-long-delayed response that I disagree with an action she took that he's mentioned, but I'm pretty good about that.
posted by kroshka at 7:53 PM on October 24, 2014 [1 favorite]
Quit trying to reassure us that you play nicely but your ex doesn't. You clearly know that both of you are being lousy coparents, so just acknowledge that there's equal blame to be shouldered here because both of you behave pretty immaturely and are both using your son as a conduit to get back at each other. Stop that. Your kid deserves better than what you're offering, too.
The reason I say this is that your question seems like a pretty thinly veiled, "How do I protect my kid from my crazy ex?" question and not a "how do I do a better job of co parenting with my ex so my kid isn't caught in the middle?". You're not taking true ownership of your part of the situation.
I think you may put the blame on your wife for things you perceive as problems really quickly, and I think you do it in front of your son more than you think. That's undermining your son's ability to trust you just as much as it does his mom. If it were me, I'd take the time to apologize to him and let him know that neither you nor your ex are treating him fairly if he has to be the go between. If he asserts something to you, you can say, "That sounds doable. Can I talk to your mom a bit about it so we can talk logistics? We want to make sure you have the best time doing that." Because yeah, it's possible his mom fed him a line to say to you, but him asserting it to you? That matters. You can't turn on him for that.
So basically, take ownership here. You've spent a lot of time qualifying your behavior as not so bad. You gotta reexamine that in order to give your kid what he really needs.
posted by Hermione Granger at 8:22 PM on October 24, 2014 [10 favorites]
The reason I say this is that your question seems like a pretty thinly veiled, "How do I protect my kid from my crazy ex?" question and not a "how do I do a better job of co parenting with my ex so my kid isn't caught in the middle?". You're not taking true ownership of your part of the situation.
I think you may put the blame on your wife for things you perceive as problems really quickly, and I think you do it in front of your son more than you think. That's undermining your son's ability to trust you just as much as it does his mom. If it were me, I'd take the time to apologize to him and let him know that neither you nor your ex are treating him fairly if he has to be the go between. If he asserts something to you, you can say, "That sounds doable. Can I talk to your mom a bit about it so we can talk logistics? We want to make sure you have the best time doing that." Because yeah, it's possible his mom fed him a line to say to you, but him asserting it to you? That matters. You can't turn on him for that.
So basically, take ownership here. You've spent a lot of time qualifying your behavior as not so bad. You gotta reexamine that in order to give your kid what he really needs.
posted by Hermione Granger at 8:22 PM on October 24, 2014 [10 favorites]
Response by poster: I find it hard to tell him that it is not his responsibility to figure things out. He wants to be in the conversation, and I think he's been shown he should be because he's brought into these parent conversations, including this one in particular, with mom.
I like those phrasings: "That's something your mom and I have to discuss" and "thanks for telling me." (though like I mentioned, I think he'll feel dismissed from a table he feels like he should be at.)
Correction/confession: I probably did yell at him in that conversation, though not at her I think. It's true I shouldn't have.
I also like "your mom is good at solving problems" and "that sounds like the kind of 'adult problem' that it's hard for a kid to help with."
I'm setting up counselling, though she has pushed against that. She even called a clinic we were going to a couple of years ago and told them she refused to allow me to take him there.
More comforting, kind words welcome, though you've helped me already. My mom suggested I simply describe the agreement that we long ago decided we'd alternate years — to make sure he has the context, rather than just seeing her anger, if I were to just not discuss it with him.
posted by kroshka at 8:22 PM on October 24, 2014
I like those phrasings: "That's something your mom and I have to discuss" and "thanks for telling me." (though like I mentioned, I think he'll feel dismissed from a table he feels like he should be at.)
Correction/confession: I probably did yell at him in that conversation, though not at her I think. It's true I shouldn't have.
I also like "your mom is good at solving problems" and "that sounds like the kind of 'adult problem' that it's hard for a kid to help with."
I'm setting up counselling, though she has pushed against that. She even called a clinic we were going to a couple of years ago and told them she refused to allow me to take him there.
More comforting, kind words welcome, though you've helped me already. My mom suggested I simply describe the agreement that we long ago decided we'd alternate years — to make sure he has the context, rather than just seeing her anger, if I were to just not discuss it with him.
posted by kroshka at 8:22 PM on October 24, 2014
I think you're missing my point: there were times I gave up seeing my son on certain holidays or weekends because it was to his benefit. Yes, I could have pushed for it, but no, I did not. Nor did I badmouth his dad about it. And yes, sometimes it was from one state to another. I did what was easiest for my son, not me. Technically, I had the right to it, but how best to buffer him was to go with the flow and work it out for next time. And not yell at his dad in front of him (ever).
posted by Marie Mon Dieu at 8:24 PM on October 24, 2014 [11 favorites]
posted by Marie Mon Dieu at 8:24 PM on October 24, 2014 [11 favorites]
I feel your wife is doing your kid a disservice by sharing her anxieties with him. By my estimation, parents are supposed to deal with their own problems, including job stresses, school stresses, and custodial disputes, without bringing their pre-adolescent kids into the fold. Of course kids need to know some facts of what's going on in their parents' lives, including difficult facts when absolutely necessary, but what you're talking about sounds a lot more like she's treating your kid like a confidante, therapist, or "little adult." Like the "I'm going to get terrible grades" idea. What's the point of sharing that? It might not even turn out to be true. It makes him worry about her. It probably makes him worry about his own grades. And to what purpose?
In general, the inappropriate confidences, lack of private interparent discussion, and telling the kid what custodial arguments she has with you you DO all fit in a line and I think the line is "lack of appropriate boundaries."
However, I don't know that you could change this behavior in her. You could try an elliptical method, like saying "I think Kid is experiencing a period of high anxiety, and I wonder if we might try to shut off some of the more anxiety-producing ideas in his life. Are you guys watching a lot of TV news, or are there other disturbing things that we could cut down on that he's exposed to?" But I doubt this would work.
From the way it sounds here, you are already doing a good job with what you have to work with. "That's something your mom and I have to talk about" and "thanks for telling me" are both good lines. "Sometimes your mom and I argue, but we're adults and we care about each other and we'll always figure it out" is another line. Maybe some reassuring "I know it sounds scary, but your mom is very strong and she has a good support system and she's going to make it through," and "we adults are working on this problem and you don't have to worry about it, we will figure it out," and "we love you and we are working on this and it's going to be OK in the end." Anything with the message WE DO HAVE PROBLEMS, BUT YOU DON'T HAVE TO SOLVE OUR PROBLEMS AND WE WILL BE BASICALLY FINE.
posted by feets at 8:26 PM on October 24, 2014 [6 favorites]
In general, the inappropriate confidences, lack of private interparent discussion, and telling the kid what custodial arguments she has with you you DO all fit in a line and I think the line is "lack of appropriate boundaries."
However, I don't know that you could change this behavior in her. You could try an elliptical method, like saying "I think Kid is experiencing a period of high anxiety, and I wonder if we might try to shut off some of the more anxiety-producing ideas in his life. Are you guys watching a lot of TV news, or are there other disturbing things that we could cut down on that he's exposed to?" But I doubt this would work.
From the way it sounds here, you are already doing a good job with what you have to work with. "That's something your mom and I have to talk about" and "thanks for telling me" are both good lines. "Sometimes your mom and I argue, but we're adults and we care about each other and we'll always figure it out" is another line. Maybe some reassuring "I know it sounds scary, but your mom is very strong and she has a good support system and she's going to make it through," and "we adults are working on this problem and you don't have to worry about it, we will figure it out," and "we love you and we are working on this and it's going to be OK in the end." Anything with the message WE DO HAVE PROBLEMS, BUT YOU DON'T HAVE TO SOLVE OUR PROBLEMS AND WE WILL BE BASICALLY FINE.
posted by feets at 8:26 PM on October 24, 2014 [6 favorites]
Response by poster: Hermione, I am not a lousy co-parent. And I am not looking here to change anything about how his mom acts with him. I'm looking to be a better parent when he has been caught (thrust) into the middle by my co-parent.
posted by kroshka at 8:35 PM on October 24, 2014 [9 favorites]
posted by kroshka at 8:35 PM on October 24, 2014 [9 favorites]
It sounds like he lives with her most of the time? The best thing that you can give your child is two happy, healthy parents. If you are adding to her stress in any way then you are hurting your child. Let her have the extra vacation days. So what if your family doesn't get to see him so much. In a few years, he will only want you, the dad, and he will learn how to talk to his mom to make that happen. Let her have this last little bit of time that he wants to be around her. Once the teenage years hit, she will lose him to you for a long time.
For now, when he brings up something that you can tell he's been coached in, change the subject. Start talking about something fun that happened that day. And try to communicate with his mother in a direct, non-emotional way, free of any references to past behavior. If she doesn't return the favor, well, that's just a nice way of being reminded why the divorce was a great idea.
It was bad of her to include him in the conversation about moving. She is a grown-ass woman and has the right to live anywhere she damn well pleases. The only conversation that she should be having with you is an equitable discussion on travel arrangements so that you can still see your son. You should have no say in where she lives.
posted by myselfasme at 8:40 PM on October 24, 2014
For now, when he brings up something that you can tell he's been coached in, change the subject. Start talking about something fun that happened that day. And try to communicate with his mother in a direct, non-emotional way, free of any references to past behavior. If she doesn't return the favor, well, that's just a nice way of being reminded why the divorce was a great idea.
It was bad of her to include him in the conversation about moving. She is a grown-ass woman and has the right to live anywhere she damn well pleases. The only conversation that she should be having with you is an equitable discussion on travel arrangements so that you can still see your son. You should have no say in where she lives.
posted by myselfasme at 8:40 PM on October 24, 2014
Best answer: If you are yelling at your son when really you're angry with his mom, you're not doing right by your kid and you're not being an effective coparent. Neither of you can keep using your kid as a conduit for that anger. If your kid brings up something that you think sounds coached or fed, acknowledge it, thank him for bringing it up, and let him know that you wanna talk logistics with his mom first so you're all on the same page. Don't just change the subject, you know? All you're doing there is telling him that when he asserts himself, even if it's because his mom's putting him up to it, you're not going to listen to him. I'm responding to the parts of your post where you're only sort of acknowledging that your behavior is part of the problem. My advice is to more fully accept that you are contributing more than you think, because if you acknowledge you're helping to set the dynamic (and it's not all on his mom) then you're one step closer to fixing it.
posted by Hermione Granger at 8:56 PM on October 24, 2014 [10 favorites]
posted by Hermione Granger at 8:56 PM on October 24, 2014 [10 favorites]
Well, I have some experience with this as a child of parents who dumped incredibly inappropriate shit on me when they were divorced; especially my mom. She was lonely and sad and terrified and she dumped all of that on me, telling me at the same time what a wonderful and mature kid I was to be able to understand it all. Oh boy did I understand it; I internalized it and it formed the core of a near- crippling depression that lasted for years and poisoned my adolescence.
I know that is my story and not your boy's; but what I am saying is that just because he "wants to be part of the conversation" doesn't mean it is in his interest to be part of the conversation; just because your wife wants to use him as an info conduit doesn't mean that is ok; and just because she can't see that her behavior is harmful now doesn't mean it isn't, and that it won't have ramifications in the future.
I like your line about "that's for me and your mom to discuss" but I think it is also important for you to explain to your kid that it really, truly is not his job to solve or even hear his mother's problems. You can find a way to say "honey it grieves me to hear that you're so worried about your mom. She doesn't realize that when she tells you this stuff it hurts you so much. She loves you and I'm sure she doesn't want you to feel so bad. You can help her by not being sad and not trying to solve this stuff for her, she has grown up tools to deal with it that you don't have yet."
And with regard to the custody stuff, I think acknowledging the messages she makes him repeat but shutting down further discussion through him is the right thing to do.
posted by fingersandtoes at 8:57 PM on October 24, 2014 [16 favorites]
I know that is my story and not your boy's; but what I am saying is that just because he "wants to be part of the conversation" doesn't mean it is in his interest to be part of the conversation; just because your wife wants to use him as an info conduit doesn't mean that is ok; and just because she can't see that her behavior is harmful now doesn't mean it isn't, and that it won't have ramifications in the future.
I like your line about "that's for me and your mom to discuss" but I think it is also important for you to explain to your kid that it really, truly is not his job to solve or even hear his mother's problems. You can find a way to say "honey it grieves me to hear that you're so worried about your mom. She doesn't realize that when she tells you this stuff it hurts you so much. She loves you and I'm sure she doesn't want you to feel so bad. You can help her by not being sad and not trying to solve this stuff for her, she has grown up tools to deal with it that you don't have yet."
And with regard to the custody stuff, I think acknowledging the messages she makes him repeat but shutting down further discussion through him is the right thing to do.
posted by fingersandtoes at 8:57 PM on October 24, 2014 [16 favorites]
I'm not sure if it quite informs the question, but I also want to bring into the picture the openness she has with him about her other stresses (like telling him that she'll get fired, that she'll get terrible grades in her masters program, that she got attacked by a psych patient and they had to tie him down, and all about various things she sees in the ER)
I don't have kids so I don't have any good advice for you on the rest of your question, but from personal experience I completely agree that this is totally inappropriate. He's not her friend, he's her son. My parents did this same shit to me (to the extent of having me mediate their disputes when I was a few years older than your son) and it can be intensely damaging to a person of that age. I spent 90% of my childhood worried about my parents in various ways, to the obvious exclusion of worrying about myself or understanding my place in the world, and this kind of "parentification" of kids often has that effect which can extend well into adulthood in the form of various perfectionism, anxiety, and control issues.
Whatever else happens, I think it's worth talking to your son (maybe even in the context of a family counselor) to make it clear that it's not his job to solve his mom's issues, that all adults have issues they have to deal with, and that he's not responsible for his mom's (or anyone else's!) emotional state.
posted by dialetheia at 9:00 PM on October 24, 2014 [9 favorites]
I don't have kids so I don't have any good advice for you on the rest of your question, but from personal experience I completely agree that this is totally inappropriate. He's not her friend, he's her son. My parents did this same shit to me (to the extent of having me mediate their disputes when I was a few years older than your son) and it can be intensely damaging to a person of that age. I spent 90% of my childhood worried about my parents in various ways, to the obvious exclusion of worrying about myself or understanding my place in the world, and this kind of "parentification" of kids often has that effect which can extend well into adulthood in the form of various perfectionism, anxiety, and control issues.
Whatever else happens, I think it's worth talking to your son (maybe even in the context of a family counselor) to make it clear that it's not his job to solve his mom's issues, that all adults have issues they have to deal with, and that he's not responsible for his mom's (or anyone else's!) emotional state.
posted by dialetheia at 9:00 PM on October 24, 2014 [9 favorites]
I find it hard to tell him that it is not his responsibility to figure things out.
Parenting is hard, but if you can't do this you have no place complaining about his mother's failures. He does not have to be a part of hostile conversations. If your ex truly refuses to have private conversations, she is in violation of this agreement:
"and any discussion of other such sensitive issues shall occur at a time when he is not present"
You can email her to point out this violation, but please don't use her refusal as an excuse to continue participating, because by doing so, you are in violation too.
Keep up with the good phrases you've noted (skip the suggestion of, "Can I talk to your mom about it..." because that is not his call to make, but it seems you know that already).
And for pity's sake, do not yell at him or around him. If you do lose your temper, apologize fully (no "sorry, I was mad at your mom and took it out on you").
As far as buffering, use email or after-bedtime phone calls exclusively. There's no reason to have these conversations with your son present, and it takes two to tango. If she flips out on you, wanting a conversation with him present, remind her again of the agreement, then keep quiet. It'll be okay.
posted by whoiam at 9:44 PM on October 24, 2014 [1 favorite]
Parenting is hard, but if you can't do this you have no place complaining about his mother's failures. He does not have to be a part of hostile conversations. If your ex truly refuses to have private conversations, she is in violation of this agreement:
"and any discussion of other such sensitive issues shall occur at a time when he is not present"
You can email her to point out this violation, but please don't use her refusal as an excuse to continue participating, because by doing so, you are in violation too.
Keep up with the good phrases you've noted (skip the suggestion of, "Can I talk to your mom about it..." because that is not his call to make, but it seems you know that already).
And for pity's sake, do not yell at him or around him. If you do lose your temper, apologize fully (no "sorry, I was mad at your mom and took it out on you").
As far as buffering, use email or after-bedtime phone calls exclusively. There's no reason to have these conversations with your son present, and it takes two to tango. If she flips out on you, wanting a conversation with him present, remind her again of the agreement, then keep quiet. It'll be okay.
posted by whoiam at 9:44 PM on October 24, 2014 [1 favorite]
I knew about my parents' physical, financial, and safety concerns as a kid, as well as their anxieties about job security. NOT knowing about those things is actually a step forward moment during the privilege walk exercise, bc the idea that kids SHOULD be shielded from that knowledge, as well as having the ability TO shield them from that knowledge is a marker of class privilege. I'm particularly mentioning this bc divorce is one of the predictors of poverty for women and children.
Also? I think it's a little funky for you to be funky about your wife asking for more holiday time, since it seems like you've asked for and gotten the same.
posted by spunweb at 11:19 PM on October 24, 2014
Also? I think it's a little funky for you to be funky about your wife asking for more holiday time, since it seems like you've asked for and gotten the same.
posted by spunweb at 11:19 PM on October 24, 2014
Best answer: I think your answers are good, as well
as the ones you favourited. Don't let any annoyance show when you say these words, though. The kid will infer a lot from your tone of voice when "that's for your mom and I to discuss" really means "...why the fuck is she dragging you into this?". "What he'll infer is "I did something wrong. If I had said it the right way, he wouldn't be mad. Now he is mad at mom and irritated at me, and mom will be mad at me for messing up."
When he is made the conduit again, the very first thing you do is remind yourself how much you love him and what a great kid he is - how much he is obviously trying to do the right thing. Then say, "hey, thanks for letting me know. I've got this now, okay?"
Source: kid whose divorced mom routinely asked her to remind dad of late child support payments.
posted by Omnomnom at 2:17 AM on October 25, 2014 [4 favorites]
as the ones you favourited. Don't let any annoyance show when you say these words, though. The kid will infer a lot from your tone of voice when "that's for your mom and I to discuss" really means "...why the fuck is she dragging you into this?". "What he'll infer is "I did something wrong. If I had said it the right way, he wouldn't be mad. Now he is mad at mom and irritated at me, and mom will be mad at me for messing up."
When he is made the conduit again, the very first thing you do is remind yourself how much you love him and what a great kid he is - how much he is obviously trying to do the right thing. Then say, "hey, thanks for letting me know. I've got this now, okay?"
Source: kid whose divorced mom routinely asked her to remind dad of late child support payments.
posted by Omnomnom at 2:17 AM on October 25, 2014 [4 favorites]
You are pretty much totally in the wrong by my read.
1. Your ex wife's phrasing could have been better, but it is possible to read it MUCH more charitably than you did. You basically just presume that she's trying to make you look bad and being passive aggressive. Perhaps she is just clumsy with explaining things to a young boy and the "ask your father" thing was careless. You are actually kind of angering me by leaving out the part where you take responsibility for yelling, instead "oh yelling happened, as it would with anyone with such a crazy ex wife statement, no?" That is, excuse me, flat out bullshit and you are 100% wrong. You yelled, that's on you, even if you were provoked. Seriously, you need to own this.
2. Flying out for 1 day, traveling, and having an entirely separate Christmas for 2 days SUCKS. Have YOU ever done this? It's horrible and stressful and makes the holiday work and no rest. Your wife is right that it's way better for a young child to alternate holidays. Send the presents to mom's, and see him for New Years.
3. You cannot control your ex wife. What she says to your son, outside of flat out abuse, is not your concern. You can share your thoughts, but ultimately you are responsible for you and not her.
posted by quincunx at 6:26 AM on October 25, 2014 [2 favorites]
1. Your ex wife's phrasing could have been better, but it is possible to read it MUCH more charitably than you did. You basically just presume that she's trying to make you look bad and being passive aggressive. Perhaps she is just clumsy with explaining things to a young boy and the "ask your father" thing was careless. You are actually kind of angering me by leaving out the part where you take responsibility for yelling, instead "oh yelling happened, as it would with anyone with such a crazy ex wife statement, no?" That is, excuse me, flat out bullshit and you are 100% wrong. You yelled, that's on you, even if you were provoked. Seriously, you need to own this.
2. Flying out for 1 day, traveling, and having an entirely separate Christmas for 2 days SUCKS. Have YOU ever done this? It's horrible and stressful and makes the holiday work and no rest. Your wife is right that it's way better for a young child to alternate holidays. Send the presents to mom's, and see him for New Years.
3. You cannot control your ex wife. What she says to your son, outside of flat out abuse, is not your concern. You can share your thoughts, but ultimately you are responsible for you and not her.
posted by quincunx at 6:26 AM on October 25, 2014 [2 favorites]
"I cannot even ask her to keep something private from him." She has demonstrated her unwillingness to keep secrets. Don't tell her secrets.
It's not about you; it's about your son. You can't control her behavior in any way. So when Son relays comments from Mom, or tries to support Mom's position (whether or not she talked him into it), talk to him. You want to do Christmas with Mom? Tell me about that. You wish you could move to Omaha? How do you feel about that? Have genuine conversations. At 9, you can discuss things with him. He may not have a vote, but he should have a voice. If he says Mommy will be lonely at Christmas without me, tell him you're proud of him for being compassionate and assure him that Mommy will be fine. Stop allowing things to be about her, focus on your son.
Kids often assume they have more control than they do, and feel responsible for divorce. Assure your son that he is not responsible for the divorce, your or Mom's happiness, etc.
posted by theora55 at 6:39 AM on October 25, 2014 [4 favorites]
It's not about you; it's about your son. You can't control her behavior in any way. So when Son relays comments from Mom, or tries to support Mom's position (whether or not she talked him into it), talk to him. You want to do Christmas with Mom? Tell me about that. You wish you could move to Omaha? How do you feel about that? Have genuine conversations. At 9, you can discuss things with him. He may not have a vote, but he should have a voice. If he says Mommy will be lonely at Christmas without me, tell him you're proud of him for being compassionate and assure him that Mommy will be fine. Stop allowing things to be about her, focus on your son.
Kids often assume they have more control than they do, and feel responsible for divorce. Assure your son that he is not responsible for the divorce, your or Mom's happiness, etc.
posted by theora55 at 6:39 AM on October 25, 2014 [4 favorites]
Just as data - on the presents I assume they have to discuss this to avoid duplicates and gifts the other parent might object to such as live animals, games, replacements for toys he didn't take care of, gifts that are so super-duper the other parent couldn't compare, and so forth.
Also, OP, please don't yell at your son unless he's running into traffic or toward a cliff.
posted by Lesser Shrew at 8:15 AM on October 25, 2014 [1 favorite]
Also, OP, please don't yell at your son unless he's running into traffic or toward a cliff.
posted by Lesser Shrew at 8:15 AM on October 25, 2014 [1 favorite]
Are there some best practices?
Kind of! You might try The Co-Parenting Survival Guide: Letting Go of Conflict After a Difficult Divorce (especially the chapters on transitions and special events). Also possible (though each have caveats) are Joint Custody with a Jerk and Co-parenting with a Toxic Ex. Point is, there are books out there written by people who have research background or clinical background to establish some best practices.
posted by librarylis at 8:43 PM on October 25, 2014 [1 favorite]
Kind of! You might try The Co-Parenting Survival Guide: Letting Go of Conflict After a Difficult Divorce (especially the chapters on transitions and special events). Also possible (though each have caveats) are Joint Custody with a Jerk and Co-parenting with a Toxic Ex. Point is, there are books out there written by people who have research background or clinical background to establish some best practices.
posted by librarylis at 8:43 PM on October 25, 2014 [1 favorite]
Best answer: A very helpful comment came by me-mail (copied here with permission) from a mefite whose parents treated them like a confidante throughout childhood, and who thought that was appropriate at the time (because they felt like a powerful little adult), yet later found it absolutely a disservice.
posted by kroshka at 8:32 PM on October 26, 2014 [3 favorites]
I would say something like "Kid, I hear what you're saying and I'm thinking about it. I know your mom wants to take you to Mexico and I know you'd like to go there too. At the same time, your grandparents and stepmom and so forth were also expecting to see you during all the winter holidays, and I think you'd like to see them, and I'm thinking about those things too. So I'll let you know, OK?" Acknowledging that you heard his desires and telling him what other elements fit into your decision making.This is basically how I spoke to my son tonight when he brought up the question while I was tucking him in (including asking him a little more about what he preferred, what was important to him, and telling him a few fragments about some of the constraints that would be coming up: when certain family would be able to come to see him and his cousins, etc.) It went really well, and I appreciate the help (this and everyone else's) profoundly.
I would be flexible, too, when I could. I mean sometimes it's OK to change your plans and go to Mexico. Other times it's not so cool. Moving out of town sounds very uncool, especially if you guys previously agreed you wouldn't. But I'd give his ideas/Mom's ideas a fair shake when I could.
posted by kroshka at 8:32 PM on October 26, 2014 [3 favorites]
He doesn't have to be part of this exact conversation about this particular subject, but he definitely needs to be part of a conversation where you talk about his feelings on any and all subjects.
"Kid, your mom and I are arguing over Things, and it's impacting you. I'm so sorry for what you're going through. If I could snap my fingers and fix things, I would. But instead, I'll do the next best thing, which is keep talking with your mom and making sure that I act like an adult. We're going to take care of you! No matter what, you'll be safe and sound and have food and shelter, and maybe most importantly, you'll be able to have your Feelings and express them.
"I know you want to be involved in these discussions, and when it's appropriate, we'll involve you. The rest of the time, it's between her and me. Know that you're not going to get everything you want, and you'll probably be unhappy with some things. But I'll keep telling you that this is what she and I need to do. By all means, tell me and her what you want. I promise to listen to you, and I will let your wants guide my decisions as much as possible. And tell me when you don't feel like you're heard. Tell me when you're sad. Tell me anything, and I'll listen."
posted by disconnect at 8:11 AM on October 28, 2014 [1 favorite]
"Kid, your mom and I are arguing over Things, and it's impacting you. I'm so sorry for what you're going through. If I could snap my fingers and fix things, I would. But instead, I'll do the next best thing, which is keep talking with your mom and making sure that I act like an adult. We're going to take care of you! No matter what, you'll be safe and sound and have food and shelter, and maybe most importantly, you'll be able to have your Feelings and express them.
"I know you want to be involved in these discussions, and when it's appropriate, we'll involve you. The rest of the time, it's between her and me. Know that you're not going to get everything you want, and you'll probably be unhappy with some things. But I'll keep telling you that this is what she and I need to do. By all means, tell me and her what you want. I promise to listen to you, and I will let your wants guide my decisions as much as possible. And tell me when you don't feel like you're heard. Tell me when you're sad. Tell me anything, and I'll listen."
posted by disconnect at 8:11 AM on October 28, 2014 [1 favorite]
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This thread is closed to new comments.
It sounds like you're really minimizing your role in all of this. Wasn't your reaction really bad? Didn't you yell? You can't control the fact that your ex gives your son more information than you find appropriate, but you can control how you react. In that scenario, if you were planning to get upset, you should have asked to speak to her privately.
Also, I don't really think there's anything wrong with telling a nine year old about life and job stresses. If your kid gets so spooked by conflict that he can't be out of your line of sight, well, maybe some therapy would be helpful. Or at least talk to your ex about that.
Lastly, did the move happen yet? Who does he live with? I would think that a move to another city would be a perfectly reasonable time to discuss changes in holiday custody.
posted by acidic at 7:15 PM on October 24, 2014 [11 favorites]