Is this ask/guess or gender stuff or neurodiversity stuff?
June 3, 2023 9:59 AM Subscribe
I'd like help understanding why this communication issue is happening and ideas to resolve it so that both parties are satisfied. If you can articulate exactly what this communication issue is, that might help as well as we lack language to accurately describe it.
I don't know what to call it so I'll just give two examples.
Example 1
Person A and B are cleaning up after dinner. Person A is holding a cup while Person B just stands at the sink, expectantly. Person A waits to see why Person B is just standing there but Person B says nothing. Person A gets confused, as Person B has been standing there a good five seconds without explaining what they are looking expectantly about, and A is now distracted and stressed by their confusion. A finally asks why B is just standing there and B says they are waiting on A to load the cup into the dishwasher so they can close it and get the dishwasher detergent from the cabinet. Person A asks why didn't you just say that? Why did you just stand there instead of also say what you were waiting on? B gets irritated with A for not understanding what they were doing and why without them having to verbalize it. Person A explains they are autistic and don't read between the lines and to please just say what you need/expect out loud. Person A pushes for understanding better why B does not want to do this. B doesn't have a clear answer to the question.
Example 2
A and B are about to go to sleep. A asks how long B needs before B can put away their electronics and go to sleep because A can't sleep while B is next to them on a device. B says let me finish this battle in my game and then I'll be done. A says ok. B begins to move around in the bed, says I love you. A asks B if they are done. B says yes . A says why didn't you just say ok I'm done when you finished your battle? B is mad at A for not reading between the lines to deduce this fact. A explains to B that B could be moving around for many different reasons and could be saying I love you just to say it. B didn't say goodnight or that they were done with their activities so it was not explicit that this was the case. A asked why B expects A to read B's mind. B thinks that isn't what they expect.
A wants B to use words more to explain their position for things, especially if A is confused and thinks what B is doing doesn't make sense. A already spends a great deal of time thinking on behalf of B, due to B's executive functioning being more impaired than A's (although A also has executive functioning challenges). B wants to communicate the way they already do and doesn't understand why this is such a big deal to A, and also doesn't understand what situations warrant more verbal explanation of things. To B they either keep doing what they are doing or they have to explain literally everything they are doing and why. B believes these things are obvious or not worth articulating and therefore doesn't want to change how they communicate.
Both A and B are AuDHD.
So what is this and why do you think it's happening? Do some autistics actually want to avoid being explicit in their communication? Because this is not as common as what I've seen in the autistic community where people want to be thorough. So is this ask vs guess and if so how do we deal with the guess person triggering the ask person due to ask's autistic trauma from other social situations where they couldn't just know what was going on? Or are cishet men socialized to say less? Is it a patriarchal entitlement related issue where women are socialized to serve men, therefore expected to be scanning for communication from the man and acting on it even if it is subtle? I remember reading an anecdote once about a man being really emotionally pained that his wife didn't guess what he needed without having to say it and that was why he didn't want to say things explicitly; he felt unloved somehow. I suppose what it is doesn't much matter if we can find a solution to this difference in communication style. Ideas?
I don't know what to call it so I'll just give two examples.
Example 1
Person A and B are cleaning up after dinner. Person A is holding a cup while Person B just stands at the sink, expectantly. Person A waits to see why Person B is just standing there but Person B says nothing. Person A gets confused, as Person B has been standing there a good five seconds without explaining what they are looking expectantly about, and A is now distracted and stressed by their confusion. A finally asks why B is just standing there and B says they are waiting on A to load the cup into the dishwasher so they can close it and get the dishwasher detergent from the cabinet. Person A asks why didn't you just say that? Why did you just stand there instead of also say what you were waiting on? B gets irritated with A for not understanding what they were doing and why without them having to verbalize it. Person A explains they are autistic and don't read between the lines and to please just say what you need/expect out loud. Person A pushes for understanding better why B does not want to do this. B doesn't have a clear answer to the question.
Example 2
A and B are about to go to sleep. A asks how long B needs before B can put away their electronics and go to sleep because A can't sleep while B is next to them on a device. B says let me finish this battle in my game and then I'll be done. A says ok. B begins to move around in the bed, says I love you. A asks B if they are done. B says yes . A says why didn't you just say ok I'm done when you finished your battle? B is mad at A for not reading between the lines to deduce this fact. A explains to B that B could be moving around for many different reasons and could be saying I love you just to say it. B didn't say goodnight or that they were done with their activities so it was not explicit that this was the case. A asked why B expects A to read B's mind. B thinks that isn't what they expect.
A wants B to use words more to explain their position for things, especially if A is confused and thinks what B is doing doesn't make sense. A already spends a great deal of time thinking on behalf of B, due to B's executive functioning being more impaired than A's (although A also has executive functioning challenges). B wants to communicate the way they already do and doesn't understand why this is such a big deal to A, and also doesn't understand what situations warrant more verbal explanation of things. To B they either keep doing what they are doing or they have to explain literally everything they are doing and why. B believes these things are obvious or not worth articulating and therefore doesn't want to change how they communicate.
Both A and B are AuDHD.
So what is this and why do you think it's happening? Do some autistics actually want to avoid being explicit in their communication? Because this is not as common as what I've seen in the autistic community where people want to be thorough. So is this ask vs guess and if so how do we deal with the guess person triggering the ask person due to ask's autistic trauma from other social situations where they couldn't just know what was going on? Or are cishet men socialized to say less? Is it a patriarchal entitlement related issue where women are socialized to serve men, therefore expected to be scanning for communication from the man and acting on it even if it is subtle? I remember reading an anecdote once about a man being really emotionally pained that his wife didn't guess what he needed without having to say it and that was why he didn't want to say things explicitly; he felt unloved somehow. I suppose what it is doesn't much matter if we can find a solution to this difference in communication style. Ideas?
This isn't ask/guess stuff or gender stuff or neurodiversity stuff, it's plain old unkindness stuff. Yes, having to verbalize can be difficult-to-exhausting sometimes, but if person B really doesn't care about the distress they are causing to person A, then maybe person A should DTMFA. One can be an asshole entirely independently of whether one is an ableist tool of the patriarchy.
posted by heatherlogan at 10:52 AM on June 3, 2023 [6 favorites]
posted by heatherlogan at 10:52 AM on June 3, 2023 [6 favorites]
Human behavior is multiply determined, and may come from a wide variety of sources. For example a major possibility you’ve left out is "what they grew up with," which frequently informs what people think of as normal and leads them to feel awkward when it’s not happening.
That said, both A and B appear to have strong beliefs in telepathy here. B sometimes doesn’t communicate clearly because they think the other person should automatically be in sync, and A feels constantly unsettled because they think they should be in sync.
Communication mismatches are pretty common but because this stuff is so personalized I think you’re going to have more luck with a couples counselor than a bunch of random people on the internet.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 10:53 AM on June 3, 2023 [16 favorites]
That said, both A and B appear to have strong beliefs in telepathy here. B sometimes doesn’t communicate clearly because they think the other person should automatically be in sync, and A feels constantly unsettled because they think they should be in sync.
Communication mismatches are pretty common but because this stuff is so personalized I think you’re going to have more luck with a couples counselor than a bunch of random people on the internet.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 10:53 AM on June 3, 2023 [16 favorites]
I'm not convinced that this is a guess or neurodivergence or sexist/gender thing, speaking as a neurodivergent (likely AuDHD) female who has been on both sides in various contexts but would be B in both of your examples (maybe not the anger part but from your description it does seem obvious what was going on). It just seems like a relationship communication/learning how to read each other thing.
The only unreasonable thing that pops out to me is the anger from either side. It was reasonable for B to expect A to understand what was going on based on the nonverbal cues, and it was also reasonable for A to miss the meaning and ask for an explanation. I don't think it's reasonable for either one to get mad at the miscommunication though. Miscommunications just happen sometimes. Couples therapy might help reduce them if it's happening constantly.
posted by randomnity at 10:58 AM on June 3, 2023 [21 favorites]
The only unreasonable thing that pops out to me is the anger from either side. It was reasonable for B to expect A to understand what was going on based on the nonverbal cues, and it was also reasonable for A to miss the meaning and ask for an explanation. I don't think it's reasonable for either one to get mad at the miscommunication though. Miscommunications just happen sometimes. Couples therapy might help reduce them if it's happening constantly.
posted by randomnity at 10:58 AM on June 3, 2023 [21 favorites]
Reading between the lines here, it's not just about communication norms but an un-willingness to communicate thoughtfully with kindness and respect for each other (awareness of the AuDHD).
I sense frustration, pent up anger, and contempt. I understand why OP is asking this question in a "neutral" way but it's missing the point.
You can have AuDHD but also be aware of how this works for each person's communication needs and to work together on what each person needs.
What I'm reading is that both A and B want the other to communicate differently but that they are also upset by this fact and both not willing to change. So at that point, I don't know what will change.
posted by AnyUsernameWillDo at 11:13 AM on June 3, 2023 [13 favorites]
I sense frustration, pent up anger, and contempt. I understand why OP is asking this question in a "neutral" way but it's missing the point.
You can have AuDHD but also be aware of how this works for each person's communication needs and to work together on what each person needs.
What I'm reading is that both A and B want the other to communicate differently but that they are also upset by this fact and both not willing to change. So at that point, I don't know what will change.
posted by AnyUsernameWillDo at 11:13 AM on June 3, 2023 [13 favorites]
P.s. both A and B seem to want the other to just know what they mean without saying what they mean and then both get angry when the communication isn't clear. It takes both parties to want to communicate with each other.
posted by AnyUsernameWillDo at 11:16 AM on June 3, 2023 [8 favorites]
posted by AnyUsernameWillDo at 11:16 AM on June 3, 2023 [8 favorites]
I think the problem the problem is not so much that B expects A to read minds - you don't describe B as being disappointed when A fails to do so; in all your examples it's A who's upset, not B - but rather that B forgets that A cannot, but might need to have that info anyway. It does make B look a bit self-absorbed, and it's easy to see how that can be exhausting for A.
A needs to know what B expects of them while waiting in front of the dishwasher, so that A can meet the expectation and it sure would be more efficient, if B would just say it. But B doesn't, so A has to ask. And then B tells her. The question is, does B do so in a reproachful tone? Because if not, this is a point, where to me the problem seems to be solved. A has the information they need, they had to put in a bit more effort to get it and maybe that's a bit annoying, but now they know what to do, the glass can be put in the dishwasher, the dishwaser can be closed, everyone can go on with their lifes.
Instead, A starts a discussion why B did not just tell her. And why is always a dangerous word, it seems to demand a justification. Of course B gets defensive. They probably don't know themselves. A lot of people just don't constantly reflect on their motivations. And honestly, even those of us who do, usually just invent some after the fact, a mental exercise not everyone finds equally rewarding.
The second scenario is somewhat mysterious to me. A can't sleep while B is using electronics, presumably because of the light pollution and commotion?, so I can see why A at some point needs B to stop using the electronics, but I don't exactly see much additional benefit of B explicitely announcing that beforehand. If A hadn't asked, they probably would have indeed learned a couple of moments later, by observing B putting the device away and observing the lack of light pollution and commotion.
But maybe B announcing that they're done with the battle would give A a head-start on getting in the right frame of mind for sleep, allowing them to go to sleep some precious moments earlier, and as someone who chronically gets too little sleep, I can see the value of that. So yeah, again B was being inconsiderate.
And again A does the proactive thing and just asks B, and again B gives the answer, A can now settle into sleep-mode, and again for me the problem here seems solved.
But again, it's not where the story ends, because A asks why B didn't just tell them, and that's the question that remains for me: Why does A need to know that? Why it is such a problem for A that they need to explicitely ask for certain info when it comes to B? Maybe they feel that B should be able to remember that they need that information? Maybe they feel unloved by B constantly having to be reminded of this?
Or maybe A worries that B might feel unloved by A having to ask instead of being able to guess? Has B ever expressed that sentiment? Because to me, it seems B doesn't seem to mind the questions in general, there's only one sort of question they seem to mind, and that's the one starting with why. I don't think that's particularly unqiue about B - a lot of people hate why questions. And while why questions can be quite entertaining from a philosophical perspective, for pragmatic purposes they are rarely particularly helpful.
Bottom-line, I would advise A to keep asking all the other questions, they seem usually successful tools for obtaining the information A needs to adjust their immediate actions, and reconsider whether knowing why would really add all that much in terms of benefits.
if the issue is that A feels that B is just not thinking about them much, since B keeps having to be reminded about things concerning A, that's more difficult. It really does seem that B is not thinking about A much. B does seem like the sort of person who constantly has to be reminded of things, and that's exhausting, and maybe that's too exhausting in the long run.
posted by sohalt at 11:16 AM on June 3, 2023 [18 favorites]
A needs to know what B expects of them while waiting in front of the dishwasher, so that A can meet the expectation and it sure would be more efficient, if B would just say it. But B doesn't, so A has to ask. And then B tells her. The question is, does B do so in a reproachful tone? Because if not, this is a point, where to me the problem seems to be solved. A has the information they need, they had to put in a bit more effort to get it and maybe that's a bit annoying, but now they know what to do, the glass can be put in the dishwasher, the dishwaser can be closed, everyone can go on with their lifes.
Instead, A starts a discussion why B did not just tell her. And why is always a dangerous word, it seems to demand a justification. Of course B gets defensive. They probably don't know themselves. A lot of people just don't constantly reflect on their motivations. And honestly, even those of us who do, usually just invent some after the fact, a mental exercise not everyone finds equally rewarding.
The second scenario is somewhat mysterious to me. A can't sleep while B is using electronics, presumably because of the light pollution and commotion?, so I can see why A at some point needs B to stop using the electronics, but I don't exactly see much additional benefit of B explicitely announcing that beforehand. If A hadn't asked, they probably would have indeed learned a couple of moments later, by observing B putting the device away and observing the lack of light pollution and commotion.
But maybe B announcing that they're done with the battle would give A a head-start on getting in the right frame of mind for sleep, allowing them to go to sleep some precious moments earlier, and as someone who chronically gets too little sleep, I can see the value of that. So yeah, again B was being inconsiderate.
And again A does the proactive thing and just asks B, and again B gives the answer, A can now settle into sleep-mode, and again for me the problem here seems solved.
But again, it's not where the story ends, because A asks why B didn't just tell them, and that's the question that remains for me: Why does A need to know that? Why it is such a problem for A that they need to explicitely ask for certain info when it comes to B? Maybe they feel that B should be able to remember that they need that information? Maybe they feel unloved by B constantly having to be reminded of this?
Or maybe A worries that B might feel unloved by A having to ask instead of being able to guess? Has B ever expressed that sentiment? Because to me, it seems B doesn't seem to mind the questions in general, there's only one sort of question they seem to mind, and that's the one starting with why. I don't think that's particularly unqiue about B - a lot of people hate why questions. And while why questions can be quite entertaining from a philosophical perspective, for pragmatic purposes they are rarely particularly helpful.
Bottom-line, I would advise A to keep asking all the other questions, they seem usually successful tools for obtaining the information A needs to adjust their immediate actions, and reconsider whether knowing why would really add all that much in terms of benefits.
if the issue is that A feels that B is just not thinking about them much, since B keeps having to be reminded about things concerning A, that's more difficult. It really does seem that B is not thinking about A much. B does seem like the sort of person who constantly has to be reminded of things, and that's exhausting, and maybe that's too exhausting in the long run.
posted by sohalt at 11:16 AM on June 3, 2023 [18 favorites]
In the first scenario, I would be B, and I would not explain myself because I am trying to patiently (or as patiently as I can) let A do the thing at their own pace. If I was going to speak I would ask why they are standing there with a cup in their hand not doing anything, when we are in the middle of cleaning up and there is a next step to be done. I would feel like I was using my executive function ("the next step in cleaning up is to put the last dish in the dishwasher and start the dishwasher") and I am kindly letting A take their time instead of pushing them to do things at my pace.
This is based more on my own experiences as someone who thinks and talks fast and can get impatient when other people lag behind; I've put a lot of work into that over my life.
I agree with sohalt that I don't understand why B had to announce anything in scenario 2. One of you wants the electronics to go off soon. The other one soon turns off the electronics. Why do you have to announce it in addition to doing it? What benefit does that add to A?
If this is actually what A needs from a partner, and B bristles that hard at it, they might not be compatible. I know plenty of people who would be compatible with A, but I can tell you that I'm not among them. I would not be able to devote that much bandwidth to figuring out what the other person needs to know and giving it to them on a daily partnership level. I could (and have) done it in friendships and work relationships, but it would require more self-regulation than I have to be responsible for that in my private space.
posted by gideonfrog at 11:38 AM on June 3, 2023 [22 favorites]
This is based more on my own experiences as someone who thinks and talks fast and can get impatient when other people lag behind; I've put a lot of work into that over my life.
I agree with sohalt that I don't understand why B had to announce anything in scenario 2. One of you wants the electronics to go off soon. The other one soon turns off the electronics. Why do you have to announce it in addition to doing it? What benefit does that add to A?
If this is actually what A needs from a partner, and B bristles that hard at it, they might not be compatible. I know plenty of people who would be compatible with A, but I can tell you that I'm not among them. I would not be able to devote that much bandwidth to figuring out what the other person needs to know and giving it to them on a daily partnership level. I could (and have) done it in friendships and work relationships, but it would require more self-regulation than I have to be responsible for that in my private space.
posted by gideonfrog at 11:38 AM on June 3, 2023 [22 favorites]
I'm wondering if the frustration is misplaced actually. Despite being able to see that B stopped with the electronics but didn't announce it, Is there an unsaid expectation that B is simply being rude in the first place to continue to play the game when A can't sleep while B plays the game?
Seems the issue is more about negotiating the sleep space than the communication. Perhaps A actually is mad that B is playing the game at all when this before bed time "should be peaceful." Which A has the right to feel. But then B might feel also that its the only thing that relaxes them? Idk. I'm single for a reason and prefer separate rooms for a reason. I know this is hard to negotiate in a lot of relationships.
So you should be negotiating the needs around the sleep space not the communication around it if that's the real issue.
With the waiting for a cup scenario, seems that A just doesn't want B to be waiting for anything???
I don't understand that frustration. It sounds like A and B have larger issues with different needs not being met and honored and so the fighting happens with seemingly "little things". Couples therapy with a good therapist might help.
posted by AnyUsernameWillDo at 11:52 AM on June 3, 2023 [5 favorites]
Seems the issue is more about negotiating the sleep space than the communication. Perhaps A actually is mad that B is playing the game at all when this before bed time "should be peaceful." Which A has the right to feel. But then B might feel also that its the only thing that relaxes them? Idk. I'm single for a reason and prefer separate rooms for a reason. I know this is hard to negotiate in a lot of relationships.
So you should be negotiating the needs around the sleep space not the communication around it if that's the real issue.
With the waiting for a cup scenario, seems that A just doesn't want B to be waiting for anything???
I don't understand that frustration. It sounds like A and B have larger issues with different needs not being met and honored and so the fighting happens with seemingly "little things". Couples therapy with a good therapist might help.
posted by AnyUsernameWillDo at 11:52 AM on June 3, 2023 [5 favorites]
I don't know what to call it
I'd call it a lack of self-awareness on A's part.
A needs B not to expect A to be a mind reader, but is apparently putting exactly that expectation on B when it comes to identifying circumstances in which that's the case, without acknowledging or perhaps even realizing that that's what they've done.
The dishwasher scenario could have been resolved without conflict if A had just said "OK" after B answered A's question about what they were waiting for.
The device scenario could have been resolved without conflict if A had just asked "Done?" when B began to move about.
But in both cases, A demanded that B give an accounting of their behaviour in such a way as to lead B to conclude that A was accusing B of Doing It Wrong.
If both parties commit to the idea that mind reading is probably going to fail more often than not, and that explicit queries on what's going on are always acceptable from the person who has one but that criticism for failing to offer an unsolicited explanation is not, I think they'd get on better in the short term and give each other better chances to get the mind reading thing working over time.
posted by flabdablet at 11:59 AM on June 3, 2023 [18 favorites]
I'd call it a lack of self-awareness on A's part.
A needs B not to expect A to be a mind reader, but is apparently putting exactly that expectation on B when it comes to identifying circumstances in which that's the case, without acknowledging or perhaps even realizing that that's what they've done.
The dishwasher scenario could have been resolved without conflict if A had just said "OK" after B answered A's question about what they were waiting for.
The device scenario could have been resolved without conflict if A had just asked "Done?" when B began to move about.
But in both cases, A demanded that B give an accounting of their behaviour in such a way as to lead B to conclude that A was accusing B of Doing It Wrong.
If both parties commit to the idea that mind reading is probably going to fail more often than not, and that explicit queries on what's going on are always acceptable from the person who has one but that criticism for failing to offer an unsolicited explanation is not, I think they'd get on better in the short term and give each other better chances to get the mind reading thing working over time.
posted by flabdablet at 11:59 AM on June 3, 2023 [18 favorites]
It's not autism, you're just sick of each other.
(To put slightly more input in, it may be that your neurological quirks don't play well with each other's, but those habits are unlikely to change. Without affection or attraction or any other positive qualities to the relationship, they're even less likely to change.)
posted by kingdead at 11:59 AM on June 3, 2023 [13 favorites]
(To put slightly more input in, it may be that your neurological quirks don't play well with each other's, but those habits are unlikely to change. Without affection or attraction or any other positive qualities to the relationship, they're even less likely to change.)
posted by kingdead at 11:59 AM on June 3, 2023 [13 favorites]
All I can say is that if these were my roommates I would be looking to move out, because it seems like they are deliberately stepping on each other's feelings and getting mad at each other for being who they are, and it would be very hard to watch.
posted by potrzebie at 12:08 PM on June 3, 2023 [7 favorites]
posted by potrzebie at 12:08 PM on June 3, 2023 [7 favorites]
I think this is more individual personality than anything else. In my household of two autistic adults, one with severe executive function issues, one male and one female, one guess and one not really on the ask/guess divide, either of us could be A or B depending on the situation.
In our household, it would be fine to just hang out and wait for the other person to finish a task. That wouldn't be seen as wanting or needing anything or as requiring a statement. If one of us notices the other hanging nearby we'd just carry on with whatever we were doing unless maybe we knew it would take a while and then we might say "hey, I'm going to be here a while, am I in your way?" and offer to move for a minute.
In example two, it feels like it would be clear the other person is done when they put down their device. Until then, they're not done. It's hard for me to understand why that would need an announcement. But if I knew my partner needed a more explicit statement I'd try to provide it next time the situation arose. I *think* my partner would say something similar, but this one is honestly so perplexing to me that it's hard to say for sure.
Broadly, neither of us is great at explicit detailed communication broadly, outside specific areas. But over the years we've tried to learn where that communication is really important to easing each other's lives and to make the extra effort at those times. Sometimes we get it wrong. I think we're both like B in the sense that it can be hard to generalize from Person X needs Y in this specific situation, to understanding what they need more generally.
posted by Stacey at 12:08 PM on June 3, 2023 [1 favorite]
In our household, it would be fine to just hang out and wait for the other person to finish a task. That wouldn't be seen as wanting or needing anything or as requiring a statement. If one of us notices the other hanging nearby we'd just carry on with whatever we were doing unless maybe we knew it would take a while and then we might say "hey, I'm going to be here a while, am I in your way?" and offer to move for a minute.
In example two, it feels like it would be clear the other person is done when they put down their device. Until then, they're not done. It's hard for me to understand why that would need an announcement. But if I knew my partner needed a more explicit statement I'd try to provide it next time the situation arose. I *think* my partner would say something similar, but this one is honestly so perplexing to me that it's hard to say for sure.
Broadly, neither of us is great at explicit detailed communication broadly, outside specific areas. But over the years we've tried to learn where that communication is really important to easing each other's lives and to make the extra effort at those times. Sometimes we get it wrong. I think we're both like B in the sense that it can be hard to generalize from Person X needs Y in this specific situation, to understanding what they need more generally.
posted by Stacey at 12:08 PM on June 3, 2023 [1 favorite]
Person A asks why didn't you just
A says why didn't you just
I think regardless of anything else, A comes across (to me) as kind of jumping adversarially on B, in a "you did this wrong" kind of way. That's a fairly sure way to get B defensive.
The situations described seem fully typical and even stereotypical of interpersonal interactions in general; while gender or neurodiversity stuff might intersect with and augment the issues for the particular individuals involved, and maybe in the broader context of A and B's relationship those can be useful lenses to look through, they're far from the only ones.
A and B need to cooperatively help each other learn how to communicate effectively with them, not jump on each other for failing to do so - which itself sounds like it's not an effective communication style for them.
"Ah sorry, I didn't get that! I thought you were just lost in thought. Tell me next time."
"Oh sweet, next time tell me so I know for sure you're done and not taking a break. Love you too."
I think A and B also need to learn the fine art of picking battles and remembering the big picture. These scenarios could have been molehills.
posted by trig at 12:09 PM on June 3, 2023 [14 favorites]
A says why didn't you just
I think regardless of anything else, A comes across (to me) as kind of jumping adversarially on B, in a "you did this wrong" kind of way. That's a fairly sure way to get B defensive.
The situations described seem fully typical and even stereotypical of interpersonal interactions in general; while gender or neurodiversity stuff might intersect with and augment the issues for the particular individuals involved, and maybe in the broader context of A and B's relationship those can be useful lenses to look through, they're far from the only ones.
A and B need to cooperatively help each other learn how to communicate effectively with them, not jump on each other for failing to do so - which itself sounds like it's not an effective communication style for them.
"Ah sorry, I didn't get that! I thought you were just lost in thought. Tell me next time."
"Oh sweet, next time tell me so I know for sure you're done and not taking a break. Love you too."
I think A and B also need to learn the fine art of picking battles and remembering the big picture. These scenarios could have been molehills.
posted by trig at 12:09 PM on June 3, 2023 [14 favorites]
In these scenarios, A seems kind of overly on edge in situations that I think most people would see as no big deal. And unusually uncomfortable with any level of ambiguity. Five seconds isn't a very long time to wait for someone to load a cup into the dishwasher. If B had been feeling a sense of urgency about getting the dishwasher started, they probably would have asked A to go ahead and put the cup in. But they probably were not feeling any great sense of urgency, because why would they? If they had reason to believe A was eventually going to load the cup, they were probably content just to wait and didn't see any need to pester A into acting faster. A seems to have been imagining that B was was waiting impatiently and getting annoyed because they expected A to know what they were waiting for, while it seems just as likely to me that B was just idly standing there, half thinking about something else, not particularly concerned with how quickly the cleaning up was proceeding.
In the second scenario, I don't understand why A needed to know the instant B was done playing the game. A didn't say, "Tell me when your game is over" or "I'm waiting to do X until your game is over, so how long do you think it will be?" Maybe by now B should have known what A's bedtime routine is and realized that A would be waiting impatiently to do X (turn off the lights? get into bed?) and would like to know as soon as possible that they could go ahead and do it. But it doesn't sound like that was the case. B may have assumed that A would realize soon enough they were done with the game. I mean, if it's so disturbing that A can't sleep while it's happening, that implies that A would easily be able to tell if it was happening or not, right?
It wouldn't hurt for B to try communicating more, since A would like that. But it would also be nice if A could chill out a little and not feel like 5 seconds of not being sure what B is doing is a big deal.
posted by Redstart at 12:15 PM on June 3, 2023 [9 favorites]
In the second scenario, I don't understand why A needed to know the instant B was done playing the game. A didn't say, "Tell me when your game is over" or "I'm waiting to do X until your game is over, so how long do you think it will be?" Maybe by now B should have known what A's bedtime routine is and realized that A would be waiting impatiently to do X (turn off the lights? get into bed?) and would like to know as soon as possible that they could go ahead and do it. But it doesn't sound like that was the case. B may have assumed that A would realize soon enough they were done with the game. I mean, if it's so disturbing that A can't sleep while it's happening, that implies that A would easily be able to tell if it was happening or not, right?
It wouldn't hurt for B to try communicating more, since A would like that. But it would also be nice if A could chill out a little and not feel like 5 seconds of not being sure what B is doing is a big deal.
posted by Redstart at 12:15 PM on June 3, 2023 [9 favorites]
Response by poster: Clarification:
They are in couples therapy already. It hits on elements of this but they can't tackle everything in an hour at a self pay rate.
A has asked B many times to be more communicative in a variety of situations. B doesn't volunteer information that seems logical to A to volunteer, so if A doesn't ask the right questions it is a crapshoot whether A gets the necessary details. This has resulted in many minor to moderate issues such as a bill going unpaid, social plans or travel plans being messed up, missing each other's signals around sex, meals sabotaged because ingredients weren't discussed properly, parenting issues, various other logistical and administrative issues that A usually has to resolve. It is a combination of ADHD forgetfulness and being raised in a hyper privacy oriented family behind B's communication stance (along with possibly other things). So this is an issue that pops up in a variety of contexts of A not being properly informed which has created minor to moderate crises and caused some amount of hypervigilence because of that as it's never possible to know when it's going to happen again.
This particular dynamic just has the added "you left that in subtext land when I need it made explicit" thing that has also been requested many times.
Great feedback. Please keep it coming.
posted by crunchy potato at 12:18 PM on June 3, 2023
They are in couples therapy already. It hits on elements of this but they can't tackle everything in an hour at a self pay rate.
A has asked B many times to be more communicative in a variety of situations. B doesn't volunteer information that seems logical to A to volunteer, so if A doesn't ask the right questions it is a crapshoot whether A gets the necessary details. This has resulted in many minor to moderate issues such as a bill going unpaid, social plans or travel plans being messed up, missing each other's signals around sex, meals sabotaged because ingredients weren't discussed properly, parenting issues, various other logistical and administrative issues that A usually has to resolve. It is a combination of ADHD forgetfulness and being raised in a hyper privacy oriented family behind B's communication stance (along with possibly other things). So this is an issue that pops up in a variety of contexts of A not being properly informed which has created minor to moderate crises and caused some amount of hypervigilence because of that as it's never possible to know when it's going to happen again.
This particular dynamic just has the added "you left that in subtext land when I need it made explicit" thing that has also been requested many times.
Great feedback. Please keep it coming.
posted by crunchy potato at 12:18 PM on June 3, 2023
I agree that this isn't an ask/guess thing, or a gender thing, or possibly even neurodivergent stuff. A & B just have different communication styles. And without deliberate effort on both sides, they are going to conflict.
My take on this is that A could also ask in the moment for what they need?
Example 1: A to B when B's just standing there and they're confused? "Hey, are you waiting for something?" B: "Yup, waiting for you to put it in the dishwasher". A: "oh, ok - here it is." There's no need to make this a confrontation over why B did what they did, its just a thing.
Example 2: B: "i'll just be a few more minutes." A: "Ah, cool. Mind letting me know when you're done?" Just asking for what you need, in the moment, can help so A doesn't get frustrated when B doesn't do what A thinks is natural. It's natural for A, but probably not for B!
posted by cgg at 12:31 PM on June 3, 2023 [13 favorites]
My take on this is that A could also ask in the moment for what they need?
Example 1: A to B when B's just standing there and they're confused? "Hey, are you waiting for something?" B: "Yup, waiting for you to put it in the dishwasher". A: "oh, ok - here it is." There's no need to make this a confrontation over why B did what they did, its just a thing.
Example 2: B: "i'll just be a few more minutes." A: "Ah, cool. Mind letting me know when you're done?" Just asking for what you need, in the moment, can help so A doesn't get frustrated when B doesn't do what A thinks is natural. It's natural for A, but probably not for B!
posted by cgg at 12:31 PM on June 3, 2023 [13 favorites]
B doesn't volunteer information that seems logical to A to volunteer, because it's information that seems logical to B to infer.
The most important thing here is just to make peace with the fact that logic has nothing to do with any of this. There can't be any progress until you manage to discard logic as a potential tool for adressing this particular issue. You're going to need an entirely different toolbox.
And probably also accept that there's no guaranteed way to avoid occasional miscommunication. There's no doubt that it has caused loads of minor to moderate issues so far, but to a certain degree, that will always be the case. What's generally more productive than being hypervigilant of nipping that sort of crisis in the bud, is finding strategies to mitigate the fall-out (less focus on who is to blame for the miscommunication, more focus on finding a solution for the problem it caused.)
I think the problem is, that you feel like you're always the one who has to find the solution for the problem the miscommunciation causes. I sense some resentments about unfair distribution of labor and mental load in your description of the situation. But maybe you could try adressing this issue by looking for solutions that cause more work for them than for you.
posted by sohalt at 12:48 PM on June 3, 2023 [11 favorites]
The most important thing here is just to make peace with the fact that logic has nothing to do with any of this. There can't be any progress until you manage to discard logic as a potential tool for adressing this particular issue. You're going to need an entirely different toolbox.
And probably also accept that there's no guaranteed way to avoid occasional miscommunication. There's no doubt that it has caused loads of minor to moderate issues so far, but to a certain degree, that will always be the case. What's generally more productive than being hypervigilant of nipping that sort of crisis in the bud, is finding strategies to mitigate the fall-out (less focus on who is to blame for the miscommunication, more focus on finding a solution for the problem it caused.)
I think the problem is, that you feel like you're always the one who has to find the solution for the problem the miscommunciation causes. I sense some resentments about unfair distribution of labor and mental load in your description of the situation. But maybe you could try adressing this issue by looking for solutions that cause more work for them than for you.
posted by sohalt at 12:48 PM on June 3, 2023 [11 favorites]
"A has asked B many times to be more communicative in a variety of situations. B doesn't volunteer information that seems logical to A to volunteer"
It seems like A has plenty of evidence that this is not going to change. B can't provide this, whether that's a character flaw or a neurological condition, whether B wishes he could or stubbornly refuses. If it was going to change, it would have already.
So if you CANNOT get this from him, ever, what's the next step?
posted by gideonfrog at 12:54 PM on June 3, 2023 [6 favorites]
It seems like A has plenty of evidence that this is not going to change. B can't provide this, whether that's a character flaw or a neurological condition, whether B wishes he could or stubbornly refuses. If it was going to change, it would have already.
So if you CANNOT get this from him, ever, what's the next step?
posted by gideonfrog at 12:54 PM on June 3, 2023 [6 favorites]
I actually do think the underlying cause here is primarily neurodivergence. Both A and B are unable to fully use Theory of Mind to answer the question "why is my partner doing what they're doing right now?"
As in, yes, it is reasonable to figure out that if a person is standing expectantly with a glass in their hand while looking at the dishwasher, they probably want to put the glass in the dishwasher and are waiting for the other person to move so they can do that. If the person in front of the dishwasher doesn't move, they have poor spatial and situational awareness, and may be perceived as being rude, regardless of intent.
There are probably some additional factors, like maybe the person holding the glass has previously been blamed for having poor situational awareness, has gone to great lengths to retrain themselves, and now feels jumpy/sensitive/defensive/rejected when others don't play by the rules they've tried so hard to learn. Or maybe the person blocking the dishwasher has previously gotten feedback from someone along the lines of "don't make assumptions about what I want, if I need you to move I will tell you" and so they take that rule and overapply it everyone in every context. This person feels jumpy/sensitive/defensive/rejected and asks "why didn't you say that?" To me, this looks like Rejection Sensitive Dysphoria or CPTSD or other forms of autistic trauma (as you point out) rearing their head.
As for what to do about it? I don't have an easy answer. I agree with those who say this is in some ways a kindness problem (both people should assume kinder intent and not get mad and jump to conclusions), but given the AuDHD in the mix, the real question is how to apply it. Maybe feel into the idea that other people exist, and how other people can be really different from you, and practice reading their body language more? Maybe if you practice attunement from a body perspective, you won't need so much verbal confirmation. This is typically HARD for non-neurotypical people, but can definitely be learned as a skill, especially if both people are willing. A relationship coach, particularly a somatic and/or autistic-friendly one, could help. Also the book Scattered by Gabor Maté, about how AD(H)D could easily be called Attunement Deficit Disorder because if we don't get attunement from our parents when growing up, we can't attune to others or to ourselves. But attunement is really just a part of the brain that needs to be developed and can do so even in adulthood given the right environmental conditions and a partner who is open to collaboration.
posted by danceswithlight at 12:56 PM on June 3, 2023 [5 favorites]
As in, yes, it is reasonable to figure out that if a person is standing expectantly with a glass in their hand while looking at the dishwasher, they probably want to put the glass in the dishwasher and are waiting for the other person to move so they can do that. If the person in front of the dishwasher doesn't move, they have poor spatial and situational awareness, and may be perceived as being rude, regardless of intent.
There are probably some additional factors, like maybe the person holding the glass has previously been blamed for having poor situational awareness, has gone to great lengths to retrain themselves, and now feels jumpy/sensitive/defensive/rejected when others don't play by the rules they've tried so hard to learn. Or maybe the person blocking the dishwasher has previously gotten feedback from someone along the lines of "don't make assumptions about what I want, if I need you to move I will tell you" and so they take that rule and overapply it everyone in every context. This person feels jumpy/sensitive/defensive/rejected and asks "why didn't you say that?" To me, this looks like Rejection Sensitive Dysphoria or CPTSD or other forms of autistic trauma (as you point out) rearing their head.
As for what to do about it? I don't have an easy answer. I agree with those who say this is in some ways a kindness problem (both people should assume kinder intent and not get mad and jump to conclusions), but given the AuDHD in the mix, the real question is how to apply it. Maybe feel into the idea that other people exist, and how other people can be really different from you, and practice reading their body language more? Maybe if you practice attunement from a body perspective, you won't need so much verbal confirmation. This is typically HARD for non-neurotypical people, but can definitely be learned as a skill, especially if both people are willing. A relationship coach, particularly a somatic and/or autistic-friendly one, could help. Also the book Scattered by Gabor Maté, about how AD(H)D could easily be called Attunement Deficit Disorder because if we don't get attunement from our parents when growing up, we can't attune to others or to ourselves. But attunement is really just a part of the brain that needs to be developed and can do so even in adulthood given the right environmental conditions and a partner who is open to collaboration.
posted by danceswithlight at 12:56 PM on June 3, 2023 [5 favorites]
So this is an issue that pops up in a variety of contexts of A not being properly informed which has created minor to moderate crises and caused some amount of hypervigilence because of that as it's never possible to know when it's going to happen again.
There is an awful lot of resentment here, presumably at perceived higher load/burden? Can they address that, perhaps shift some other work away from A, so A has more capacity to deal with these ‘crises’. A may also want to reconsider what they call crisis because for many people the vast majority of unpaid bills would not amount to a crisis. Not paying a rental deposit that can result in losing out on an apartment, sure that’s a crisis. Not paying the gas bill, not really.
posted by koahiatamadl at 1:02 PM on June 3, 2023 [2 favorites]
There is an awful lot of resentment here, presumably at perceived higher load/burden? Can they address that, perhaps shift some other work away from A, so A has more capacity to deal with these ‘crises’. A may also want to reconsider what they call crisis because for many people the vast majority of unpaid bills would not amount to a crisis. Not paying a rental deposit that can result in losing out on an apartment, sure that’s a crisis. Not paying the gas bill, not really.
posted by koahiatamadl at 1:02 PM on June 3, 2023 [2 favorites]
For a more immediate strategy, strong +1 to just asking for what you need in the moment, as in cgg's comment.
posted by danceswithlight at 1:05 PM on June 3, 2023
posted by danceswithlight at 1:05 PM on June 3, 2023
B doesn't volunteer information that seems logical to A to volunteer, so if A doesn't ask the right questions it is a crapshoot whether A gets the necessary details. This has resulted in many minor to moderate issues such as a bill going unpaid, social plans or travel plans being messed up, missing each other's signals around sex, meals sabotaged because ingredients weren't discussed properly, parenting issues, various other logistical and administrative issues that A usually has to resolve.
It sounds like they need a combination of letting go of the little things (not using them as a proxy battle over the big stuff) and implementing systems to catch the big things. I.e., not relying on B to always know what A needs to hear, but instead using check-ins, meetings, checklists, and other tools and communication techniques to help things not get missed. The therapist could help them implement this in a way that's not A having to run everything.
"Why didn't you just ...?" is not a helpful communication technique; it's an aggressive and escalating one and probably worth weeding out of the repertoire altogether.
I wonder if they could practice using a (hopefully fond or humorous) shorthand to have B (and sometimes probably A too) describe what they're envisioning.
"Describe" - "I see you loading that cup in the dishwasher, so I can close it." "Gotcha."
"Describe dinner" - "I see us eating chili tonight. Probably later than usual because I have a meeting. I see you waiting for me to eat." "What's in the chili?" ...
posted by trig at 1:06 PM on June 3, 2023 [4 favorites]
It sounds like they need a combination of letting go of the little things (not using them as a proxy battle over the big stuff) and implementing systems to catch the big things. I.e., not relying on B to always know what A needs to hear, but instead using check-ins, meetings, checklists, and other tools and communication techniques to help things not get missed. The therapist could help them implement this in a way that's not A having to run everything.
"Why didn't you just ...?" is not a helpful communication technique; it's an aggressive and escalating one and probably worth weeding out of the repertoire altogether.
I wonder if they could practice using a (hopefully fond or humorous) shorthand to have B (and sometimes probably A too) describe what they're envisioning.
"Describe" - "I see you loading that cup in the dishwasher, so I can close it." "Gotcha."
"Describe dinner" - "I see us eating chili tonight. Probably later than usual because I have a meeting. I see you waiting for me to eat." "What's in the chili?" ...
posted by trig at 1:06 PM on June 3, 2023 [4 favorites]
To me this sounds like two people who don’t really accept each other’s limitations, and that A thinks they can micromanage B into compliance and also that A thinks they should be top banana in all interactions and maybe B is unconsciously resisting it.
In general it seems exhausting. I don’t think labeling it will really help—my concern is that A would use the label as more ammo to force their preferred dynamic.
posted by kapers at 1:08 PM on June 3, 2023 [15 favorites]
In general it seems exhausting. I don’t think labeling it will really help—my concern is that A would use the label as more ammo to force their preferred dynamic.
posted by kapers at 1:08 PM on June 3, 2023 [15 favorites]
The thing about both these situations is that the "problem" caused by any miscommunication was so low level it would barely register to most people. B had to wait a few seconds longer than absolutely necessary to start the dishwasher. A had to spend a few seconds wondering what B wanted. A had to wait a few minutes (or maybe not even a minute?) longer than absolutely necessary before relaxing and starting to go to sleep. Why is any of this even considered a problem?
It sounds like B also fails to communicate in situations where the consequences are more serious and so maybe A is extra annoyed by any lack of communication even when the consequences are minor. It also sounds like A is wound a little tight. Is it possible that even some of the more serious consequences seem like a bigger deal to A than they really have to be?
posted by Redstart at 1:08 PM on June 3, 2023 [19 favorites]
It sounds like B also fails to communicate in situations where the consequences are more serious and so maybe A is extra annoyed by any lack of communication even when the consequences are minor. It also sounds like A is wound a little tight. Is it possible that even some of the more serious consequences seem like a bigger deal to A than they really have to be?
posted by Redstart at 1:08 PM on June 3, 2023 [19 favorites]
This looks like a remarkably symmetrical situation to me. A expects B to know (without being told) that A is waiting on B's instruction for what to do with a cup, and is distracted and stressed when this doesn't happen. A is frustrated when they feel they "finally" have to verbalize that expectation, because B is "just standing there" instead of mind-reading it. B expects A to know (without being told) that B is waiting for A to take the cup they are holding and put it in the dishwasher, and doesn't respond to A's inaction and mounting frustration by verbalizing this expectation.
B expects A to know (without being told) that when they move around and say "I love you" in bed after playing their game for a while, they are now done with the game and are ready to go to sleep. A expects B to know (without being told) that A wants B to explicitly tell A when they are done with their game. When A asks B about this, B confirms that they are done with the game. But A is not happy about having to explicitly ask for this confirmation. B is not happy about being assigned responsibility for knowing when A just wants to be told something without asking for it.
Maybe this is all explained by the cis het male socialization that A and B presumably both have, not sure.
Anyway.
I am not getting the sense that there are pro- and anti-communication parties here. Rather, I sense that both of you are having trouble with clearly communicating your expectations. Which, I hasten to add, is actually an insanely hard thing to do, at least for those of us who weren't born with the big honkin' NVIDIA coprocessor dedicated to computing what other people are thinking all the time (sorry I am not a neuroscientist/-typical not sure if this is how it works). There's no general formula for communication, unfortunately. It's actually not possible to "just always say what you want" or anything like that and shortcut around the mind-reading -- what you want is always relative to a baseline of both your and the other party's expectations. B is correct that it's a substantial problem if one "doesn't understand what situations warrant more verbal explanation of things" -- a situation warrants more verbal explanation if the other person needs or wants it, which is just mind-reading all over again. But B is being inflexible in thinking that the alternatives are "never change what I'm used to" and "blab all the time about every little thing." Possibly both A and B are being inflexible in more or less this same way.
I do think as a couple A and B can probably learn to communicate better. You can build up couple-specific habits and knowledge and expectations. But I don't think there's like a magic bullet solution that will solve your communication difficulties. Communication is just hell of difficult in general and I am getting the vibe that it is especially difficult for you guys. Which, no judgment, me too.
In my view, the relational problem is not the communication difficulties. Those, you may be able to work on, but I think expecting to solve them is kind of unreasonable. (Sorry.) I would say the problem is an emotional dynamic that is cropping up when you have a communication difficulty. From the outside, these communication difficulties look, uh, very small and undramatic. They concern things that more or less don't matter at all. Not to say they won't also come up in relation to more serious matters, I'm sure they will. But the cup and the video game and so on -- that's insignificant stuff, right? And yet it is triggering this serious upset, possibly from both sides. So we gotta think about, what is this emotional dynamic and can / should you deal with it somehow?
Some commenters are reading the dynamic as, You guys don't really like each other very much, which is one possible diagnosis for sure. That would explain why you both seem to have little patience for each other around these seemingly tiny things.
But also, just, living with another person involves unavoidable friction, in my opinion. Maybe the being-in-close-quarters-all-the-time thing is just taking a toll on you guys, no matter how compatible you are in general. Maybe a little strategic domestic separation would help smooth things out a little. I don't necessarily mean like "move out," which would probably seem like a nuclear option anyway. But something like, "Tonight, B is solely responsible for all kitchen tasks after dinner and A will be doing their own thing and will be neither expected nor allowed to help in any way." Nominally this gives B more work, but also it gives B a well-cabined task area that doesn't require any online social reasoning to accomplish. I know it makes an enormous difference to my state of mind if I don't think anyone else is looking or feeling at me and I can just do my thing. Have a rotation or whatever.
posted by grobstein at 1:10 PM on June 3, 2023 [10 favorites]
B expects A to know (without being told) that when they move around and say "I love you" in bed after playing their game for a while, they are now done with the game and are ready to go to sleep. A expects B to know (without being told) that A wants B to explicitly tell A when they are done with their game. When A asks B about this, B confirms that they are done with the game. But A is not happy about having to explicitly ask for this confirmation. B is not happy about being assigned responsibility for knowing when A just wants to be told something without asking for it.
Maybe this is all explained by the cis het male socialization that A and B presumably both have, not sure.
Anyway.
I am not getting the sense that there are pro- and anti-communication parties here. Rather, I sense that both of you are having trouble with clearly communicating your expectations. Which, I hasten to add, is actually an insanely hard thing to do, at least for those of us who weren't born with the big honkin' NVIDIA coprocessor dedicated to computing what other people are thinking all the time (sorry I am not a neuroscientist/-typical not sure if this is how it works). There's no general formula for communication, unfortunately. It's actually not possible to "just always say what you want" or anything like that and shortcut around the mind-reading -- what you want is always relative to a baseline of both your and the other party's expectations. B is correct that it's a substantial problem if one "doesn't understand what situations warrant more verbal explanation of things" -- a situation warrants more verbal explanation if the other person needs or wants it, which is just mind-reading all over again. But B is being inflexible in thinking that the alternatives are "never change what I'm used to" and "blab all the time about every little thing." Possibly both A and B are being inflexible in more or less this same way.
I do think as a couple A and B can probably learn to communicate better. You can build up couple-specific habits and knowledge and expectations. But I don't think there's like a magic bullet solution that will solve your communication difficulties. Communication is just hell of difficult in general and I am getting the vibe that it is especially difficult for you guys. Which, no judgment, me too.
In my view, the relational problem is not the communication difficulties. Those, you may be able to work on, but I think expecting to solve them is kind of unreasonable. (Sorry.) I would say the problem is an emotional dynamic that is cropping up when you have a communication difficulty. From the outside, these communication difficulties look, uh, very small and undramatic. They concern things that more or less don't matter at all. Not to say they won't also come up in relation to more serious matters, I'm sure they will. But the cup and the video game and so on -- that's insignificant stuff, right? And yet it is triggering this serious upset, possibly from both sides. So we gotta think about, what is this emotional dynamic and can / should you deal with it somehow?
Some commenters are reading the dynamic as, You guys don't really like each other very much, which is one possible diagnosis for sure. That would explain why you both seem to have little patience for each other around these seemingly tiny things.
But also, just, living with another person involves unavoidable friction, in my opinion. Maybe the being-in-close-quarters-all-the-time thing is just taking a toll on you guys, no matter how compatible you are in general. Maybe a little strategic domestic separation would help smooth things out a little. I don't necessarily mean like "move out," which would probably seem like a nuclear option anyway. But something like, "Tonight, B is solely responsible for all kitchen tasks after dinner and A will be doing their own thing and will be neither expected nor allowed to help in any way." Nominally this gives B more work, but also it gives B a well-cabined task area that doesn't require any online social reasoning to accomplish. I know it makes an enormous difference to my state of mind if I don't think anyone else is looking or feeling at me and I can just do my thing. Have a rotation or whatever.
posted by grobstein at 1:10 PM on June 3, 2023 [10 favorites]
FWIW, I think I’d be B here, and it feels like the only scenario that would make A happy would be for me to constantly narrate my entire life and thoughts out loud, which I would find completely untenable.
You say that A thinks it would be logical for B to explain what they were doing in the dishwasher scenario. To me, it would be completely illogical (and indeed patronising and infuriating) to explain it out loud, because I’d think it was obvious that I was waiting for A to do the next step in the task, the thing they were clearly about to do anyway. So I have no idea how I’d work out which things A needed additional verbal narration on.
It’s kind of hard to know as an internet stranger, where the things you want explained fall on a scale from “you need to explain out loud to me your intention at every single step of a joint domestic task” to “Oh shit, neither of us paid for the kids’ school trip because we each vaguely thought the other one would do it and didn’t discuss it.”
To me, the former would be mind-bending and I couldn’t live like that; the latter would be a straightforward sign that more, better communication on running the household was needed.
posted by penguin pie at 1:46 PM on June 3, 2023 [17 favorites]
You say that A thinks it would be logical for B to explain what they were doing in the dishwasher scenario. To me, it would be completely illogical (and indeed patronising and infuriating) to explain it out loud, because I’d think it was obvious that I was waiting for A to do the next step in the task, the thing they were clearly about to do anyway. So I have no idea how I’d work out which things A needed additional verbal narration on.
It’s kind of hard to know as an internet stranger, where the things you want explained fall on a scale from “you need to explain out loud to me your intention at every single step of a joint domestic task” to “Oh shit, neither of us paid for the kids’ school trip because we each vaguely thought the other one would do it and didn’t discuss it.”
To me, the former would be mind-bending and I couldn’t live like that; the latter would be a straightforward sign that more, better communication on running the household was needed.
posted by penguin pie at 1:46 PM on June 3, 2023 [17 favorites]
Just a quick update which is, I hadn't read your update when I wrote my comment. I still stand by my comment (actually I'm kind of proud of it). But there's one more thing I noticed now.
This has resulted in many minor to moderate issues such as a bill going unpaid, social plans or travel plans being messed up, missing each other's signals around sex, meals sabotaged because ingredients weren't discussed properly, parenting issues, various other logistical and administrative issues that A usually has to resolve.
So I think the communication difficulties are on both sides, and it doesn't really make sense to say that B unilaterally is not being an effective communicator. But what sticks out here is that, when there is a consequential communication oopsie (not a nothing one like the ones in the OP), the buck always stops with A (you report). If true, that's a pretty big asymmetry. That's probably where the resentment comes from. (Also I think it's a pretty common gender dynamic.)
Idk what to do about it except to say, maybe it will be helpful to analytically separate this out as a different problem. Communication, hey, pobody's nerfect. But if something important goes wrong, both partners should be prepared to step in to fix it (not necessarily at the same time). Or B should be prepared to honor A's role as the emergency backstop in some other way. Maybe separating out the issues this way will make it easier to detach from the stuff that doesn't actually matter and which just reminds you of the stuff that matters.
posted by grobstein at 2:22 PM on June 3, 2023 [7 favorites]
This has resulted in many minor to moderate issues such as a bill going unpaid, social plans or travel plans being messed up, missing each other's signals around sex, meals sabotaged because ingredients weren't discussed properly, parenting issues, various other logistical and administrative issues that A usually has to resolve.
So I think the communication difficulties are on both sides, and it doesn't really make sense to say that B unilaterally is not being an effective communicator. But what sticks out here is that, when there is a consequential communication oopsie (not a nothing one like the ones in the OP), the buck always stops with A (you report). If true, that's a pretty big asymmetry. That's probably where the resentment comes from. (Also I think it's a pretty common gender dynamic.)
Idk what to do about it except to say, maybe it will be helpful to analytically separate this out as a different problem. Communication, hey, pobody's nerfect. But if something important goes wrong, both partners should be prepared to step in to fix it (not necessarily at the same time). Or B should be prepared to honor A's role as the emergency backstop in some other way. Maybe separating out the issues this way will make it easier to detach from the stuff that doesn't actually matter and which just reminds you of the stuff that matters.
posted by grobstein at 2:22 PM on June 3, 2023 [7 favorites]
In both scenarios, it feels like *A* is the one who expects mind-reading.
E.g. This would be my interpretation of events, and my train of thought:
1. Why does A think that the onus is on B to communicate? Shouldn't A communicate why *they* are standing there with a cup, doing nothing, instead?
B has a task they want to complete, loading the dishwasher.
A is doing... Something. They are standing there with a cup.
It is very considerate and polite to wait for someone who is in your way to finish what they are doing, or to give them at least 5 seconds to finish whatever their task is, before distracting them by giving them another instruction or questioning them.
Not giving people a few seconds to do something before barraging them with questions or instructions is further, also often seen as rude or pushy. When someone is in your way, you wait first, before asking them to move.
Further, for a lot of people with ADHD, it is very *distracting* to be given a verbal question or instruction when you are doing or finishing a task, or even if you are struggling to remember something - and if you are standing there doing nothing then maybe you are trying to remember something? - and so giving people a little time to complete whatever it is they are doing *before* asking them to move out of your way, is very helpful for a lot of adhd people, but also more generally regarded as the polite thing to do.
Bs actions make sense to me, I still do not know from this account why A was standing there with a cup doing nothing, or why they got upset at B for waiting briefly to see if they would continue or finish whatever it was that had them standing there.
Yes, sometimes both people misread and wait for the other person for 5 seconds, this is just something that happens, like people accidentally stepping to the same side when walking up to each other on the street, it's not something to get upset about.
2. I took A literally, and it sounds like B took A literally.
A said they could not sleep while B was on their device, which means that A was saying they *could tell* that B was on their device. If this activity is disturbing them, then logically it means A would be able to tell when this activity has stopped.
B stopped playing shortly, got their body comfortable for sleep, and said "I love you", which is a common and acceptable alternative to "Good night".
A then got upset again. Why?
Did A lie? If A could not tell that they were *no longer* on their device, then why did it bother them when B was *on* their device? Were they being controlling because they knew B was on a device, rather than because of anything they could sense, see or feel? If you tell me something is bothering you, I will assume that is because you can perceive it happening, which means you will already know when it stops happening, so giving additional verbal confirmation of that would be pointless.
posted by Elysum at 3:50 PM on June 3, 2023 [21 favorites]
E.g. This would be my interpretation of events, and my train of thought:
1. Why does A think that the onus is on B to communicate? Shouldn't A communicate why *they* are standing there with a cup, doing nothing, instead?
B has a task they want to complete, loading the dishwasher.
A is doing... Something. They are standing there with a cup.
It is very considerate and polite to wait for someone who is in your way to finish what they are doing, or to give them at least 5 seconds to finish whatever their task is, before distracting them by giving them another instruction or questioning them.
Not giving people a few seconds to do something before barraging them with questions or instructions is further, also often seen as rude or pushy. When someone is in your way, you wait first, before asking them to move.
Further, for a lot of people with ADHD, it is very *distracting* to be given a verbal question or instruction when you are doing or finishing a task, or even if you are struggling to remember something - and if you are standing there doing nothing then maybe you are trying to remember something? - and so giving people a little time to complete whatever it is they are doing *before* asking them to move out of your way, is very helpful for a lot of adhd people, but also more generally regarded as the polite thing to do.
Bs actions make sense to me, I still do not know from this account why A was standing there with a cup doing nothing, or why they got upset at B for waiting briefly to see if they would continue or finish whatever it was that had them standing there.
Yes, sometimes both people misread and wait for the other person for 5 seconds, this is just something that happens, like people accidentally stepping to the same side when walking up to each other on the street, it's not something to get upset about.
2. I took A literally, and it sounds like B took A literally.
A said they could not sleep while B was on their device, which means that A was saying they *could tell* that B was on their device. If this activity is disturbing them, then logically it means A would be able to tell when this activity has stopped.
B stopped playing shortly, got their body comfortable for sleep, and said "I love you", which is a common and acceptable alternative to "Good night".
A then got upset again. Why?
Did A lie? If A could not tell that they were *no longer* on their device, then why did it bother them when B was *on* their device? Were they being controlling because they knew B was on a device, rather than because of anything they could sense, see or feel? If you tell me something is bothering you, I will assume that is because you can perceive it happening, which means you will already know when it stops happening, so giving additional verbal confirmation of that would be pointless.
posted by Elysum at 3:50 PM on June 3, 2023 [21 favorites]
My advice is based on the fact you are already in the early stages of couples counseling.
Each person is saying, "Why can't you just help me out by doing things my way?" but it were really that simple to change, it would have been no big deal and would have already happened. Yet, when one person asks what seems like a small thing and the partner fails, it just builds the resentment on both sides.
Obviously this is not a good thing in the long run. But assuming that you care about each other (since you are a couple) and you are in therapy (so you are getting professional help in working on your relationship) my advice for right now is
- Work on tolerating the uncomfortable moments.When these difficult moments happen, remind yourself that they love you, you love them, and you are both working on making this relationship better in the long run.
- Cultivate patience and generosity towards your partner. Again, try to assume that they aren't doing this to hurt you on purpose even if you are getting hurt.
- When these things happen, if you can, try to start the conversation with curiosity about what is going for them. You might tell them what you thought they were thinking (unless that just starts a fight) but from a place that you don't really know what they were thinking but you would like to.
- The point of the conversations (for right now) is to just better understand the other person's point of view. Don't ask them to change. Over time, it will probably make sense for both of you to change to help out your partner in these encounters but right now expecting change (or worse, demanding change) just makes it worse. (Back to my assumption that if this was easy they would have changed already)
- Again, be patient with the process. Trust your therapist to help you untangle this knot.
This stuff is all easier to say than to do but if you want to give it a try, My advice would be same for both A and B but just one making these changes in their own mindset might lead to a positive change in the relationship (It might!)
posted by metahawk at 6:07 PM on June 3, 2023 [3 favorites]
Each person is saying, "Why can't you just help me out by doing things my way?" but it were really that simple to change, it would have been no big deal and would have already happened. Yet, when one person asks what seems like a small thing and the partner fails, it just builds the resentment on both sides.
Obviously this is not a good thing in the long run. But assuming that you care about each other (since you are a couple) and you are in therapy (so you are getting professional help in working on your relationship) my advice for right now is
- Work on tolerating the uncomfortable moments.When these difficult moments happen, remind yourself that they love you, you love them, and you are both working on making this relationship better in the long run.
- Cultivate patience and generosity towards your partner. Again, try to assume that they aren't doing this to hurt you on purpose even if you are getting hurt.
- When these things happen, if you can, try to start the conversation with curiosity about what is going for them. You might tell them what you thought they were thinking (unless that just starts a fight) but from a place that you don't really know what they were thinking but you would like to.
- The point of the conversations (for right now) is to just better understand the other person's point of view. Don't ask them to change. Over time, it will probably make sense for both of you to change to help out your partner in these encounters but right now expecting change (or worse, demanding change) just makes it worse. (Back to my assumption that if this was easy they would have changed already)
- Again, be patient with the process. Trust your therapist to help you untangle this knot.
This stuff is all easier to say than to do but if you want to give it a try, My advice would be same for both A and B but just one making these changes in their own mindset might lead to a positive change in the relationship (It might!)
posted by metahawk at 6:07 PM on June 3, 2023 [3 favorites]
A and B were tired, and out of spoons. "After dinner" is after a full day. "Bedtime" is at the end of the day.
In example 1, if cleaning up after dinner as a team isn't something they can do practically in their sleep, problems will arise. Neither person has strong communication skills at that hour. Maybe dinner is an alternating one cooks/one cleans team agreement.
Example 2 made me wince. Why is B doing something that prevents A from sleeping in the first place? Why does A have to ask how long B needs before putting away the electronics, why does B respond with "Let me finish..."
It's a weird power dynamic. If playing games on a phone, tablet, laptop or game station (gods forbid, but maybe that's why B is described as "moving around" while A is confused about where they are in the schedule -- A's in an eye mask and can't tell the device is fully off) is part of B's nightly regimen, that could be a living-room activity before B gets into their shared bed.
posted by Iris Gambol at 7:14 PM on June 3, 2023 [5 favorites]
In example 1, if cleaning up after dinner as a team isn't something they can do practically in their sleep, problems will arise. Neither person has strong communication skills at that hour. Maybe dinner is an alternating one cooks/one cleans team agreement.
Example 2 made me wince. Why is B doing something that prevents A from sleeping in the first place? Why does A have to ask how long B needs before putting away the electronics, why does B respond with "Let me finish..."
It's a weird power dynamic. If playing games on a phone, tablet, laptop or game station (gods forbid, but maybe that's why B is described as "moving around" while A is confused about where they are in the schedule -- A's in an eye mask and can't tell the device is fully off) is part of B's nightly regimen, that could be a living-room activity before B gets into their shared bed.
posted by Iris Gambol at 7:14 PM on June 3, 2023 [5 favorites]
Iris makes a good point. There's no reason why both partners have to be up with their dishes. In my house, one cooks and the other clears.
And if one of us wants to keep reading when the other is ready for lights out, the reader will always ask if the sleeper wants the screen off. Sleeper is always the decider re what light and sound levels are acceptable.
I understand that these examples were on the less-urgent side of what you're dealing with. My point is that if you guys are bad at doing things together, a clearer designation of responsibilities and division of labor could help. But I recall your prior questions, and I understand it may be easier said than done.
posted by fingersandtoes at 7:46 PM on June 3, 2023 [1 favorite]
And if one of us wants to keep reading when the other is ready for lights out, the reader will always ask if the sleeper wants the screen off. Sleeper is always the decider re what light and sound levels are acceptable.
I understand that these examples were on the less-urgent side of what you're dealing with. My point is that if you guys are bad at doing things together, a clearer designation of responsibilities and division of labor could help. But I recall your prior questions, and I understand it may be easier said than done.
posted by fingersandtoes at 7:46 PM on June 3, 2023 [1 favorite]
Yeah, I think this is also an A problem too - asking for clearer communication also means providing said clear communication about A’s needs in any moment. These are not necessarily common needs, so B shouldn’t be expected to infer them.
posted by corb at 9:23 PM on June 3, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by corb at 9:23 PM on June 3, 2023 [1 favorite]
Scenario 1: A is asking for clearer communication, but why is A holding the cup? If they wanted to put it in the sink, shouldn’t they have asked? A and B stood staring at each other each assuming the other’s intention, but only B is getting picked on for it.
Scenario 2: Did B turn the phone off? It’s not clear to me why A needs verbal confirmation of something that is visible and was clearly requested and confirmed, setting aside the bid for a shared end-of-the-day moment (“I love you”) that was immediately turned into an argument. Saying “I love you” was not the sign that they had stopped using their phone. Stopping using the phone was the sign they’d stopped using their phone.
This sounds to me like A has so much resentment built up towards B that everything they do is wrong. There could be a good reason for this! But at the end you mention patriarchy and I can’t even figure out who is a man in this scenario. They both seem to expect mindreading, to me.
posted by tchemgrrl at 5:00 AM on June 4, 2023 [2 favorites]
Scenario 2: Did B turn the phone off? It’s not clear to me why A needs verbal confirmation of something that is visible and was clearly requested and confirmed, setting aside the bid for a shared end-of-the-day moment (“I love you”) that was immediately turned into an argument. Saying “I love you” was not the sign that they had stopped using their phone. Stopping using the phone was the sign they’d stopped using their phone.
This sounds to me like A has so much resentment built up towards B that everything they do is wrong. There could be a good reason for this! But at the end you mention patriarchy and I can’t even figure out who is a man in this scenario. They both seem to expect mindreading, to me.
posted by tchemgrrl at 5:00 AM on June 4, 2023 [2 favorites]
It does sound like A has a case of BEC to me, not anything to do with any diagnoses or cultural differences. It strikes me that both examples are at the end of the day when people are worn out.
For things like bills and other important areas of communication, it’s helpful to have household meetings (or coffee dates) to discuss things. But…it’s also the case that life is imperfect. Not communicating over ingredients and ruining a meal can but seen as a communication crisis…or it can be something to laugh about together and order pizza. In my marriage, we’ve both had both responses.
A long time ago, I read a book on auras that talked about people’s actions when “in power” and when “out of power.” For example, someone who’s got a strong ability to plan ahead, when they are feeling in power, can help everyone meet goals. But when feeling out of power, they can be blaming everyone around them for not doing the plan exactly. Those personal traits are simply traits - they’re not good or bad, but how they are applied is partly due to how that person is feeling about their relationship to the world and those around them.
My husband and I are really different in a lot of ways. One thing that makes our relationship strong is that we try to value our differences, not eradicate them, while still finding mutual ways of Getting Things Done. We do go through minor periods of BEC. Then we reconnect. An example is, my spouse is a bit of a dreamer. Right now he’s fascinated with cob houses. So last year he dug up a corner of our yard to make a cob hut. But he also has a FT job, a part time volunteer gig, and he’s taking a class (and we have 2 teen kids). So we have an embarrassing weed pile in the backyard. I spent the pandemic getting out garden really nice do we could entertain and also raise tomatoes. You see where this is going.
I could focus on needing a beautiful back yard, or his respecting the work I did, or I can focus on this being his life too, and his drive to try hippy stuff out as a part of the ride. Maybe in 10 years I’ll live in an Earthship somewhere off the grid. Maybe we’ll have a disaster on our property. In fact, a couple of weekends ago I pitched a fit about it. He made plans to take some time off in July to at least move ahead. That’s how we work it out - messily but with love. Some people wouldn’t be able to handle my husband’s quests. For me, he brings me joy and some his his quests have also become mine. But my response depends on how I’m feeling - in power or out of power.
But also, he listens to me and tries to also value my needs and goals.
I think A sounds hyper vigilant in these two cases. The sleep one sounds understandable because…tired out. But the kitchen one sounds a bit weird - it’s just a few seconds out of everyone’s life. But it could also be that this marriage just isn’t joyful or loving at its base, and that’s a real issue.
posted by warriorqueen at 6:03 AM on June 4, 2023 [8 favorites]
For things like bills and other important areas of communication, it’s helpful to have household meetings (or coffee dates) to discuss things. But…it’s also the case that life is imperfect. Not communicating over ingredients and ruining a meal can but seen as a communication crisis…or it can be something to laugh about together and order pizza. In my marriage, we’ve both had both responses.
A long time ago, I read a book on auras that talked about people’s actions when “in power” and when “out of power.” For example, someone who’s got a strong ability to plan ahead, when they are feeling in power, can help everyone meet goals. But when feeling out of power, they can be blaming everyone around them for not doing the plan exactly. Those personal traits are simply traits - they’re not good or bad, but how they are applied is partly due to how that person is feeling about their relationship to the world and those around them.
My husband and I are really different in a lot of ways. One thing that makes our relationship strong is that we try to value our differences, not eradicate them, while still finding mutual ways of Getting Things Done. We do go through minor periods of BEC. Then we reconnect. An example is, my spouse is a bit of a dreamer. Right now he’s fascinated with cob houses. So last year he dug up a corner of our yard to make a cob hut. But he also has a FT job, a part time volunteer gig, and he’s taking a class (and we have 2 teen kids). So we have an embarrassing weed pile in the backyard. I spent the pandemic getting out garden really nice do we could entertain and also raise tomatoes. You see where this is going.
I could focus on needing a beautiful back yard, or his respecting the work I did, or I can focus on this being his life too, and his drive to try hippy stuff out as a part of the ride. Maybe in 10 years I’ll live in an Earthship somewhere off the grid. Maybe we’ll have a disaster on our property. In fact, a couple of weekends ago I pitched a fit about it. He made plans to take some time off in July to at least move ahead. That’s how we work it out - messily but with love. Some people wouldn’t be able to handle my husband’s quests. For me, he brings me joy and some his his quests have also become mine. But my response depends on how I’m feeling - in power or out of power.
But also, he listens to me and tries to also value my needs and goals.
I think A sounds hyper vigilant in these two cases. The sleep one sounds understandable because…tired out. But the kitchen one sounds a bit weird - it’s just a few seconds out of everyone’s life. But it could also be that this marriage just isn’t joyful or loving at its base, and that’s a real issue.
posted by warriorqueen at 6:03 AM on June 4, 2023 [8 favorites]
Sorry if I missed it, but I don't think you said which of these two people you are (assuming you are one) but, like others, I'm guessing you're A. I don't know if it would help to imagine an Ask about the same events from the point of view of B?
Person A and B are cleaning up after dinner. Person A is about to load a cup into the dishwasher while Person B stands at the sink. Person A suddenly stops and just stands there, with the cup in their hand. Person B doesn't say anything or make a fuss, and gives Person A time to load the cup. After a long five seconds of just doing nothing, A asks B why they're standing there and B says that, obviously, they are waiting on A to load the cup into the dishwasher so they can close it and get the dishwasher detergent from the cabinet. Person A gets surprisingly irritated and asks why didn't you just say that? Why did you just stand there instead of also say what you were waiting on? B thought it was obvious they were patiently waiting for A, because why else would they be standing by the dishwasher detergent cabinet while A was about to finish loading the dishwasher, if it wasn't to be helpful?
etc.
posted by fabius at 7:44 AM on June 4, 2023
Person A and B are cleaning up after dinner. Person A is about to load a cup into the dishwasher while Person B stands at the sink. Person A suddenly stops and just stands there, with the cup in their hand. Person B doesn't say anything or make a fuss, and gives Person A time to load the cup. After a long five seconds of just doing nothing, A asks B why they're standing there and B says that, obviously, they are waiting on A to load the cup into the dishwasher so they can close it and get the dishwasher detergent from the cabinet. Person A gets surprisingly irritated and asks why didn't you just say that? Why did you just stand there instead of also say what you were waiting on? B thought it was obvious they were patiently waiting for A, because why else would they be standing by the dishwasher detergent cabinet while A was about to finish loading the dishwasher, if it wasn't to be helpful?
etc.
posted by fabius at 7:44 AM on June 4, 2023
Since A and B are AuDHD they should already know that it's a spectrum, and skills that come easier to one may not be as easy to the other. Someone very close to me is autistic and doesn't need me to narrate every action and every decision process to him. I am NT but easily startled so I like him to make a little bit of noise as he's approaching from behind. But there are other situations where I absolutely have to go further to make him comfortable than I would for a NT person. We choose to work these issues out because we care for each other. And because we care for each other we extend a bit of grace when things start going sideways. And because we extend that grace to each other, we succeed in working these issues out. It's a good cycle. Without caring, without grace, without putting in the work, you end up with multiple AskMe relationship questions.
Why is B doing something that prevents A from sleeping in the first place? Why does A have to ask how long B needs before putting away the electronics, why does B respond with "Let me finish..."
Because it's B's sleep routine too? Some of this sounds bad because of the "gamers, amiright?" trope but this is close to "let me finish the last 2 rows of this stitch and I'll be at a good spot to stop" if I'm crocheting. What if B was reading with a booklight and wanted to get to the end of the chapter? B said, "I'll stop here," A agreed. B stopped and gets ready for bed, but A wanted to be told B has stopped?
Just reading the two scenarios makes me feel like if I were B I'd be walking on eggshells around A waiting for the next thing I'd do wrong.
posted by kimberussell at 8:02 AM on June 4, 2023 [2 favorites]
Why is B doing something that prevents A from sleeping in the first place? Why does A have to ask how long B needs before putting away the electronics, why does B respond with "Let me finish..."
Because it's B's sleep routine too? Some of this sounds bad because of the "gamers, amiright?" trope but this is close to "let me finish the last 2 rows of this stitch and I'll be at a good spot to stop" if I'm crocheting. What if B was reading with a booklight and wanted to get to the end of the chapter? B said, "I'll stop here," A agreed. B stopped and gets ready for bed, but A wanted to be told B has stopped?
Just reading the two scenarios makes me feel like if I were B I'd be walking on eggshells around A waiting for the next thing I'd do wrong.
posted by kimberussell at 8:02 AM on June 4, 2023 [2 favorites]
Best answer: Neurodivergent
B has speech production issues and at a guess, probably had a stammer as a child. They are not fluent at speaking and never will be, and trying to make them fluent will exacerbate their difficulty in processing by making them anxious that they will say the wrong thing. They may also "flood" when an emotionally intense conversation occurs and lose their ability to process what is being said to them in addition to being unable to reply.
A uses speech and communication to generate closeness. They like to talk about feelings and shared experiences and like to make sure people who are close to them understand their feelings. They also probably love to know how other people feel. If they can't do this they get anxious and irritable. In your example above, being told "I love you" made them feel angry and confused instead of feeling loved, because they were expecting "I am finished playing, Good-night." This means they probably are using prepared scripts when they communicate and get thrown when the script is not the expected one.
Both people may have trouble holding a conversation and doing entirely unrelated work at the same time. An example of this would be doing the dishes with someone else while talking about a TV show. If the conversation stops dead while they figure out where to put the plates, or if they stand there and chatter without actually working, conversation is something that requires a lot of neurological resources for them.
B is probably losing verbal fluency in this relationship as they get more anxious that what they say may distress A. The chances are saying "I love you" and getting a negative reaction is not doing their ability to communicate any good at all.
Verbal abilities in people on the spectrum or not, range from Not-speaking at one end, through to can't-shut-up and/or has no censor/frequently tells lies at the other. Not-speaking is not the same as non-verbal - I knew several people who struggle with speech production but whose written output is magnificent. However having average abilities at speech production doesn't mean someone neurotypical, any more than having speech production issues after a stroke means that someone is neurodiverse, at least not in the way we use the term neurodiverse.
There is a small chance that this couple might do well if B were to write regular letters to A, as that could potentially generate the connection that A is seeking without distressing B. B might also get more comfortable with speaking if they got to be involved in a lot of one on one discussions on subjects that are greatly interesting and non-threatening to them, and thus could practice speech fluency without any pressure. They should probably do this with someone other than A.
A could find some other people to have intense conversations with, so that their needs for communication and closeness are met. They would also benefit from learning about cognitive distortortions, which are at the base of such thoughts as "I didn't FEEL loved, therefore he doesn't love me" and "He should know how I feel without my telling him and he should be intensely interested in how I feel always."
Both participants in the conversations sound like they are having a miserable time.
posted by Jane the Brown at 1:00 PM on June 4, 2023 [8 favorites]
B has speech production issues and at a guess, probably had a stammer as a child. They are not fluent at speaking and never will be, and trying to make them fluent will exacerbate their difficulty in processing by making them anxious that they will say the wrong thing. They may also "flood" when an emotionally intense conversation occurs and lose their ability to process what is being said to them in addition to being unable to reply.
A uses speech and communication to generate closeness. They like to talk about feelings and shared experiences and like to make sure people who are close to them understand their feelings. They also probably love to know how other people feel. If they can't do this they get anxious and irritable. In your example above, being told "I love you" made them feel angry and confused instead of feeling loved, because they were expecting "I am finished playing, Good-night." This means they probably are using prepared scripts when they communicate and get thrown when the script is not the expected one.
Both people may have trouble holding a conversation and doing entirely unrelated work at the same time. An example of this would be doing the dishes with someone else while talking about a TV show. If the conversation stops dead while they figure out where to put the plates, or if they stand there and chatter without actually working, conversation is something that requires a lot of neurological resources for them.
B is probably losing verbal fluency in this relationship as they get more anxious that what they say may distress A. The chances are saying "I love you" and getting a negative reaction is not doing their ability to communicate any good at all.
Verbal abilities in people on the spectrum or not, range from Not-speaking at one end, through to can't-shut-up and/or has no censor/frequently tells lies at the other. Not-speaking is not the same as non-verbal - I knew several people who struggle with speech production but whose written output is magnificent. However having average abilities at speech production doesn't mean someone neurotypical, any more than having speech production issues after a stroke means that someone is neurodiverse, at least not in the way we use the term neurodiverse.
There is a small chance that this couple might do well if B were to write regular letters to A, as that could potentially generate the connection that A is seeking without distressing B. B might also get more comfortable with speaking if they got to be involved in a lot of one on one discussions on subjects that are greatly interesting and non-threatening to them, and thus could practice speech fluency without any pressure. They should probably do this with someone other than A.
A could find some other people to have intense conversations with, so that their needs for communication and closeness are met. They would also benefit from learning about cognitive distortortions, which are at the base of such thoughts as "I didn't FEEL loved, therefore he doesn't love me" and "He should know how I feel without my telling him and he should be intensely interested in how I feel always."
Both participants in the conversations sound like they are having a miserable time.
posted by Jane the Brown at 1:00 PM on June 4, 2023 [8 favorites]
There may be diagnosis-related reasons for why these two people have so many communication problems. And even if there are actual formal diagnoses on the table, it's still ok for the bottom line to be, these two people are not compatible. Doesn't mean they're bad people. It's not ableist to decide "hey, the way you and I communicate doesn't match, and it's stressful and maybe impossible for us to try to adapt to each other, and we're finding conflict around almost every aspect of cohabitation, so maybe we just aren't working out as a couple". Both people sound stressed and unhappy and they do not have matching love languages. Those are great reasons not to be a couple any more.
posted by nouvelle-personne at 8:03 AM on August 4, 2023
posted by nouvelle-personne at 8:03 AM on August 4, 2023
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If A literally can't, B needs to understand that her not picking up his cues isn't because she isn't interested or willing -- which would be hurtful -- just that she lacks the ability. Hopefully B can figure out ways of communicating these cues in a way that isn't exhausting. (Pat A's arm, point to dishwasher? Kiss A and say "ok goodnight"?)
posted by fingersandtoes at 10:23 AM on June 3, 2023 [6 favorites]