How long do you think the pandemic trauma will last for most people?
April 3, 2023 12:30 PM Subscribe
Just curious to know, how many more months or years do you think the pandemic trauma will last for most people? Will the trauma and mental health last for years or decades? Or is it already going away you reckon?
Depends on which version of the pandemic trauma people have, really. For those of us who have, or have loved ones with, disabilities such that the push for “back to normal” feels reckless and is actively endangering us or those we love, the pandemic is still very much actively creating new trauma right now. “When will it go away” is a nonsensical question.
For others where the worst part was the initial fear and uncertainty, but their lives and risk factors are such that life is fairly normal for them now, maybe they’re well on their way to healing. Or maybe not, if they lost loved ones in terrible ways, or missed out on critical years of childhood development and are still playing catch-up, or are not particularly resilient to trauma for other reasons.
Most of the people in my life are in the “still very much being actively traumatized by a world that has decided to consider their health and lives expendable and move on” stage, so, yeah. Years or decades sounds more like it to me, but I live at one end of a spectrum and anecdata isn’t worth much. Keep an eye on the research as it comes out, this is an active area of study.
posted by Stacey at 12:52 PM on April 3, 2023 [62 favorites]
For others where the worst part was the initial fear and uncertainty, but their lives and risk factors are such that life is fairly normal for them now, maybe they’re well on their way to healing. Or maybe not, if they lost loved ones in terrible ways, or missed out on critical years of childhood development and are still playing catch-up, or are not particularly resilient to trauma for other reasons.
Most of the people in my life are in the “still very much being actively traumatized by a world that has decided to consider their health and lives expendable and move on” stage, so, yeah. Years or decades sounds more like it to me, but I live at one end of a spectrum and anecdata isn’t worth much. Keep an eye on the research as it comes out, this is an active area of study.
posted by Stacey at 12:52 PM on April 3, 2023 [62 favorites]
I think the trauma surrounding the actual pandemic itself (health effects) are pretty much gone, except for some people who are still serious about masking up, etc, and those who have long COVID. There's now some mild effects surrounding people being more careful in general, testing, staying in if not feeling well, etc.
However, the trauma during/after the pandemic related to social traumas on both sides (media and fear of COVID/fear of authority, lockdowns, people feeling forced to tolerate those who are unvaccinated, people feeling forced to vaccinate/mask up, feeling their freedoms were violated, and generally a "us vs them" split), economical damages (layoffs, companies failing/closing, cuts, inflation), and other incidentals might be with us for some time to come. How long that is, it really depends on when/how big the next crisis might be.
As you all might be able to see, I can definitely see both sides and appreciate how COVID and the response overall might have affected people differently. But, right now, looking outside and at society in general, it really does appear that the worst is over and things are back to normal for the most part. I believe within 10-15 years, COVID and associated effects will be long forgotten.
My two cents.
posted by dubious_dude at 12:55 PM on April 3, 2023 [5 favorites]
However, the trauma during/after the pandemic related to social traumas on both sides (media and fear of COVID/fear of authority, lockdowns, people feeling forced to tolerate those who are unvaccinated, people feeling forced to vaccinate/mask up, feeling their freedoms were violated, and generally a "us vs them" split), economical damages (layoffs, companies failing/closing, cuts, inflation), and other incidentals might be with us for some time to come. How long that is, it really depends on when/how big the next crisis might be.
As you all might be able to see, I can definitely see both sides and appreciate how COVID and the response overall might have affected people differently. But, right now, looking outside and at society in general, it really does appear that the worst is over and things are back to normal for the most part. I believe within 10-15 years, COVID and associated effects will be long forgotten.
My two cents.
posted by dubious_dude at 12:55 PM on April 3, 2023 [5 favorites]
I think the mental model that the pandemic is a period of stress that comes with 'normality' or 'a break' after is wrong. The pandemic arose in part from megatrends of globalization and human development, and as the Earth gets more and more destabilized from the long-term consequences of fossil fuel use, crisis will pile on crisis without the old ones ending. We will never see the kind of stability our earlier lives taught us was normal again. We need to learn to grow more resilient from disruption.
posted by sindark at 1:01 PM on April 3, 2023 [22 favorites]
posted by sindark at 1:01 PM on April 3, 2023 [22 favorites]
The pandemic is far from over in the Canadian health care and educational systems, though the issue now is coping with how everything was eroded during the phase when we collectively chose to care about the illness. Long-term capabilities have been degraded and lost, and the system is functioning in crisis mode with little prospect of a big increase in either material or public opinion support.
posted by sindark at 1:04 PM on April 3, 2023 [9 favorites]
posted by sindark at 1:04 PM on April 3, 2023 [9 favorites]
I suspect it won't last long past the start of the next pandemic, two weeks tops.
posted by Superilla at 1:07 PM on April 3, 2023 [4 favorites]
posted by Superilla at 1:07 PM on April 3, 2023 [4 favorites]
There's also a continued ripple effect in how we (as US Americans) treat the medical community, health officials, educators, service workers, people across the political divide, etc. It's exposed a deeper hostility and aggressiveness in how people treat each other, even how people drive!, and I think that affects people mentally and emotionally, even people who don't even think about the pandemic anymore.
And I don't know how long that'll last -- I'm thinking years. I don't know if it'll ever quite go away.
posted by mochapickle at 1:25 PM on April 3, 2023 [33 favorites]
And I don't know how long that'll last -- I'm thinking years. I don't know if it'll ever quite go away.
posted by mochapickle at 1:25 PM on April 3, 2023 [33 favorites]
I think we're in the grief stage - grieving for lost loved ones, lost opportunities, and a loss of resiliency both individually and collectively. Many people will process the grief, others will struggle, but the grief will always be part of our life histories.
So, yeah, I guess my answer is "forever" - just like a war, economic crisis, natural disaster, or terrorist attack, the pandemic has altered the course of our lives. Many people will find ways to deal with the sadness, anxiety, and grief, but for folks who were already struggling (due to life circumstances, income, marginalized background, health, etc.) it's going to be tough.
posted by toastedcheese at 1:32 PM on April 3, 2023 [34 favorites]
So, yeah, I guess my answer is "forever" - just like a war, economic crisis, natural disaster, or terrorist attack, the pandemic has altered the course of our lives. Many people will find ways to deal with the sadness, anxiety, and grief, but for folks who were already struggling (due to life circumstances, income, marginalized background, health, etc.) it's going to be tough.
posted by toastedcheese at 1:32 PM on April 3, 2023 [34 favorites]
I think it’s going to depend on how much longer the pandemic goes on, because as time goes on and people continue to act as though it’s over, more people are going to die from the long term effects, which is of course traumatizing to their family and friends, and others are going to have trauma from dealing with the fact that the majority of people don’t actually care that the pandemic is still going on.
Much like the trauma that occurred when people discovered their friends and family supported Trump, there is ongoing trauma from realizing just how few people care about each other enough to stop spreading Covid.
posted by MexicanYenta at 1:36 PM on April 3, 2023 [25 favorites]
Much like the trauma that occurred when people discovered their friends and family supported Trump, there is ongoing trauma from realizing just how few people care about each other enough to stop spreading Covid.
posted by MexicanYenta at 1:36 PM on April 3, 2023 [25 favorites]
My answer is "forever" as well. I am immunocompromised, and the callousness with which so many people just decided I'm expendable because they miss going to church or their favorite bar or whatever... it's a lot.
That so many people just completely gave up on masking, social distancing, vaccinations, because "Well, it hasn't affected me (yet) so it's not a problem!" is also a lot.
I have lost tremendous faith in people as a whole. I used to believe people were mostly good, but the last couple years have really soured that. I still mask, sanitize my hands constantly, and social distance. Just about every time I go out masked to run errands etc, someone makes the deliberate choice to mock me or call me out for masking. It's not that it hurts, human dumpster fires gonna human dumpster fire, but it makes it really hard to believe in a brighter tomorrow.
posted by xedrik at 1:40 PM on April 3, 2023 [50 favorites]
That so many people just completely gave up on masking, social distancing, vaccinations, because "Well, it hasn't affected me (yet) so it's not a problem!" is also a lot.
I have lost tremendous faith in people as a whole. I used to believe people were mostly good, but the last couple years have really soured that. I still mask, sanitize my hands constantly, and social distance. Just about every time I go out masked to run errands etc, someone makes the deliberate choice to mock me or call me out for masking. It's not that it hurts, human dumpster fires gonna human dumpster fire, but it makes it really hard to believe in a brighter tomorrow.
posted by xedrik at 1:40 PM on April 3, 2023 [50 favorites]
There is the idea of individual trauma and community trauma here's a nice article not related to covid and those end up having different effects on people.
In general how someone does after a traumatic event has the most to do with support, and space to process. However this isn't always the case, because trauma can impact people in different and unexpected ways. Even well resourced people with lots of support .
Also, individuals don't always process events as they are happening. So some people may become more stressed about isolation or quarantine way after the fact.
People do process things, and everyone differently. There is no really timeline of processing any trauma, so it's really hard to say how long.
posted by AlexiaSky at 1:46 PM on April 3, 2023 [1 favorite]
In general how someone does after a traumatic event has the most to do with support, and space to process. However this isn't always the case, because trauma can impact people in different and unexpected ways. Even well resourced people with lots of support .
Also, individuals don't always process events as they are happening. So some people may become more stressed about isolation or quarantine way after the fact.
People do process things, and everyone differently. There is no really timeline of processing any trauma, so it's really hard to say how long.
posted by AlexiaSky at 1:46 PM on April 3, 2023 [1 favorite]
I think lesser trauma than the Covid pandemic can have lingering effects for decades and even lifetimes.
Sure not every child that turned 8 in March 2020 in the US will be scarred for life by their formative years having lots of chaos and death, but an awful lot of impressionable kids got fucked up by this big time. Think of how many lost grandparents or even parents: that kind of trauma is absolutely part of the pandemic and I don't see it going away any time soon, for many people.
posted by SaltySalticid at 1:53 PM on April 3, 2023 [14 favorites]
Sure not every child that turned 8 in March 2020 in the US will be scarred for life by their formative years having lots of chaos and death, but an awful lot of impressionable kids got fucked up by this big time. Think of how many lost grandparents or even parents: that kind of trauma is absolutely part of the pandemic and I don't see it going away any time soon, for many people.
posted by SaltySalticid at 1:53 PM on April 3, 2023 [14 favorites]
Think about anyone you know who lived through the Great Depression. My grandmother, for example, for the rest of her life did some minor hoarding: saving tin foil and margarine containers because "we can reuse these," refusing to throw out clothes with holes in them, keeping and eating food past its expiration date. Those are trauma responses.
Now think about things you maybe do just a little bit differently now. I always keep a spare pack of toilet paper in the back of the closet, just in case. I'm more cognizant of little, minor illness symptoms like a tickle in my throat or a headache than I used to be, and when I feel them, I continue to monitor my body for signs they're getting worse, whereas I used to sort of shrug them off and ignore them. I carry hand sanitizer everywhere and use it regularly, because I've gotten used to it and now have a lower tolerance for feeling like my hands are a little dirty. Those are also all trauma responses. I don't expect them to ever go away.
posted by decathecting at 1:53 PM on April 3, 2023 [69 favorites]
Now think about things you maybe do just a little bit differently now. I always keep a spare pack of toilet paper in the back of the closet, just in case. I'm more cognizant of little, minor illness symptoms like a tickle in my throat or a headache than I used to be, and when I feel them, I continue to monitor my body for signs they're getting worse, whereas I used to sort of shrug them off and ignore them. I carry hand sanitizer everywhere and use it regularly, because I've gotten used to it and now have a lower tolerance for feeling like my hands are a little dirty. Those are also all trauma responses. I don't expect them to ever go away.
posted by decathecting at 1:53 PM on April 3, 2023 [69 favorites]
There seems to be some indication that children suffered a pretty serious disruption in terms of social and educational development, and that's not the kind of thing that goes away easily. If you knew somebody who grew up during the Depression, you probably remember them being extremely frugal even if they were super rich as adults. It's going to be at least 15 more years before the first covid babies are adults, and even them some of the effects still won't be obvious. And that's just one segment of affected people.
Whatever the answer is, it won't be "forever", though. People at the end of WWII thought the Holocaust would be unforgettable. Now those people's great-grandchildren are neo-Nazis with swastika tattoos and copies of The Turner Diaries. The answer for any sort of societal trauma like that is "until the people who lived through it are mostly dead", which ends up being about 60-70 years after the event. You already see interest waning in the Kennedy assassination, for example. When I was a kid, that was something people had strongly held opinions about. Covid will be a topic for historians by 2300.
posted by kevinbelt at 1:55 PM on April 3, 2023 [16 favorites]
Whatever the answer is, it won't be "forever", though. People at the end of WWII thought the Holocaust would be unforgettable. Now those people's great-grandchildren are neo-Nazis with swastika tattoos and copies of The Turner Diaries. The answer for any sort of societal trauma like that is "until the people who lived through it are mostly dead", which ends up being about 60-70 years after the event. You already see interest waning in the Kennedy assassination, for example. When I was a kid, that was something people had strongly held opinions about. Covid will be a topic for historians by 2300.
posted by kevinbelt at 1:55 PM on April 3, 2023 [16 favorites]
I had a number of jobs during Covid, many around building and describing care and support packages for vulnerable adults 18+ e.g., learning disabled and/or physically disabled. The care sector as an industry looks at the Covid period as a massive setback in terms of gains made in developing vulnerable people to be more independent and make choices for themselves. However, since the end of lockdown and working more closely with adults as a writer, I've found that many care service users reflect on Covid as a time when they broke free of trauma:
1. They were able to do they wanted. Why? LD and disabled adults who cannot work are often forced to attend day centres and activities e.g., art classes that are often "hell" for individuals. First, they have to learn to navigate and conform to the situation their carer has put them in; second, they have to deal with each and every other individual's process of adjustment; third, they have to undergo the developing situation where their continued involvement, which is often identified solely based on what's locally available, builds up into a challenging set of tasks called "Active Support". For example, a person will be tasked with learning how to take the bus alone to a session and return home at the end of the day. The care team gets rewarded when they reduce their hours of care by the service provider, so they have incentives to make active support decisions even if they ultimately go against the wishes of the client. Lockdown closed many day centres and carers were forced to let clients stay home. Ironically, many individuals became more self-sufficient and resilient even when they were less active in the community. Since the end of Covid restrictions day centres have tried all and sundry to convince their former clients to return, most unsuccessfully.
2. They learned to handle their own time extremely well. Why? Many individuals with complex disabilities e.g., global development delay or autism rely on routine. The challenge of constantly moving from one place to another creates a host of routine maintenance challenges. Learning how to take care of your own home or a home you share with other adults can take an average of two to four years depending on your level of ability and the forbearance of care workers to actively support one to do so. It sounds crazy that care workers needed years to teach adults how to successfully live at home without care, but the care system is not designed to quickly help because they would make less money. It's creating a crisis for care companies and organisations because commissioners know many more adults need less time to reach self-sufficiency milestones than care companies tell them in their contract proposals. This is why many care providers have had to pivot to taking on more and more vulnerable individuals who will never be able to care for themselves, creating more work for already poorly paid care workers. The care provider industry is experiencing lasting trauma.
3. They enjoyed virtual events more than in-person gatherings. Why? If you've ever gone to a cooking party, you know how annoying it is to get home and discover you don't own a whisk. Virtual events made it really easy for individuals to take part in events while remaining in a place where they felt safe and comfortable. A truly fascinating example was a weekly two-hour daytime disco held at a pub in the East Midlands for LD adults. Most events, care workers outnumbered clients two-to-one. According to a care team I met with in 2020, the average client needed nine attendances to feel confident to attend the event all the way through. One thing that was always noted was the activity was client-led. When the disco went virtual in 2020, attendance exploded and most participants attended more often than when the event was in-person. Since end of restrictions, the disco has remained virtual because they do not believe they can lure clients back to a place they've decided is not encouraging or motivating to them. This has created a major crisis in the care system.
4. They got to find really cool jobs. Why? It was a lot easier to find jobs open to LD individuals when they were not being applied to by everybody who saw the ad. Unfortunately, the end of restrictions have made it harder for vulnerable people to navigate a world with more people who haven't taken the time to understand they have as much right to be at work as anyone else.
The most important trauma challenge which has come out of Covid-19 and has not gone away is the radicalisation of young white boys and men. That collective trauma is going to continue until these influencers are discredited and their victims are appropriately supported to move past the individual traumas that enabled the indoctrination in the first place.
posted by parmanparman at 2:01 PM on April 3, 2023 [35 favorites]
1. They were able to do they wanted. Why? LD and disabled adults who cannot work are often forced to attend day centres and activities e.g., art classes that are often "hell" for individuals. First, they have to learn to navigate and conform to the situation their carer has put them in; second, they have to deal with each and every other individual's process of adjustment; third, they have to undergo the developing situation where their continued involvement, which is often identified solely based on what's locally available, builds up into a challenging set of tasks called "Active Support". For example, a person will be tasked with learning how to take the bus alone to a session and return home at the end of the day. The care team gets rewarded when they reduce their hours of care by the service provider, so they have incentives to make active support decisions even if they ultimately go against the wishes of the client. Lockdown closed many day centres and carers were forced to let clients stay home. Ironically, many individuals became more self-sufficient and resilient even when they were less active in the community. Since the end of Covid restrictions day centres have tried all and sundry to convince their former clients to return, most unsuccessfully.
2. They learned to handle their own time extremely well. Why? Many individuals with complex disabilities e.g., global development delay or autism rely on routine. The challenge of constantly moving from one place to another creates a host of routine maintenance challenges. Learning how to take care of your own home or a home you share with other adults can take an average of two to four years depending on your level of ability and the forbearance of care workers to actively support one to do so. It sounds crazy that care workers needed years to teach adults how to successfully live at home without care, but the care system is not designed to quickly help because they would make less money. It's creating a crisis for care companies and organisations because commissioners know many more adults need less time to reach self-sufficiency milestones than care companies tell them in their contract proposals. This is why many care providers have had to pivot to taking on more and more vulnerable individuals who will never be able to care for themselves, creating more work for already poorly paid care workers. The care provider industry is experiencing lasting trauma.
3. They enjoyed virtual events more than in-person gatherings. Why? If you've ever gone to a cooking party, you know how annoying it is to get home and discover you don't own a whisk. Virtual events made it really easy for individuals to take part in events while remaining in a place where they felt safe and comfortable. A truly fascinating example was a weekly two-hour daytime disco held at a pub in the East Midlands for LD adults. Most events, care workers outnumbered clients two-to-one. According to a care team I met with in 2020, the average client needed nine attendances to feel confident to attend the event all the way through. One thing that was always noted was the activity was client-led. When the disco went virtual in 2020, attendance exploded and most participants attended more often than when the event was in-person. Since end of restrictions, the disco has remained virtual because they do not believe they can lure clients back to a place they've decided is not encouraging or motivating to them. This has created a major crisis in the care system.
4. They got to find really cool jobs. Why? It was a lot easier to find jobs open to LD individuals when they were not being applied to by everybody who saw the ad. Unfortunately, the end of restrictions have made it harder for vulnerable people to navigate a world with more people who haven't taken the time to understand they have as much right to be at work as anyone else.
The most important trauma challenge which has come out of Covid-19 and has not gone away is the radicalisation of young white boys and men. That collective trauma is going to continue until these influencers are discredited and their victims are appropriately supported to move past the individual traumas that enabled the indoctrination in the first place.
posted by parmanparman at 2:01 PM on April 3, 2023 [35 favorites]
I think you have to define "trauma" better, especially on the internet. It's a word than can be used to describe anything from "yes, I still remember the pandemic, haha" to "I am never ever getting on an airplane without an N95" all the way to diagnosed mental illness.
Consumer comfort with a range of everyday activities is still not 100%, according to Morning Consult. But since we have no pre-pandemic numbers, maybe we wouldn't expect it to be.
People who lived through the Great Depression, or World War, or any number of intense situations usually don't forget - ever, and it sounds crazy that we would expect them to. My grandfather, for a period of time, was incredibly poor. But in his 90s, when he was retired and had enough money to live very comfortably for the rest of his life, he still collected newspapers and random garbage on the street, because he still was worried that one day, he wouldn't be able to get any of those things, because at one point in his life those were valuable. All your life experiences mold you, that's what we mostly are, a collection of memories.
If you're referring to the broader social, political, and economic consequences of the pandemic, there is no "back to normal". That's not how history works.
posted by meowzilla at 2:02 PM on April 3, 2023 [15 favorites]
Consumer comfort with a range of everyday activities is still not 100%, according to Morning Consult. But since we have no pre-pandemic numbers, maybe we wouldn't expect it to be.
People who lived through the Great Depression, or World War, or any number of intense situations usually don't forget - ever, and it sounds crazy that we would expect them to. My grandfather, for a period of time, was incredibly poor. But in his 90s, when he was retired and had enough money to live very comfortably for the rest of his life, he still collected newspapers and random garbage on the street, because he still was worried that one day, he wouldn't be able to get any of those things, because at one point in his life those were valuable. All your life experiences mold you, that's what we mostly are, a collection of memories.
If you're referring to the broader social, political, and economic consequences of the pandemic, there is no "back to normal". That's not how history works.
posted by meowzilla at 2:02 PM on April 3, 2023 [15 favorites]
I'd say the biggest lingering impact in the US is the erosion in trust in authority. Not just political authority, but the CDC, teachers, doctors, journalists, poll workers, etc. I'd be curious how this compares to elsewhere in the world, particularly countries that at least initially ensured that everyone could afford to be on lock down. At least in the US, I think the take away of most people was "In tough times, the only people I can trust are my closest friends and family" and we're still living with the effects of this. I don't think this is a "forever" effect, but it will take awhile to fade, particularly if this groove gets deepened with subsequent crises.
But if your question is more, "When will people go back to their pre-pandemic behaviors because they precieve the risks to be equivalent to the world pre-COVID" I'd say most people are already there - I had to fly a lot for work recently, which took me through nine different airports, and I was struck by how rare it was to see another person masked - I'd estimate maybe 5% of people were masked.
posted by coffeecat at 2:13 PM on April 3, 2023 [10 favorites]
But if your question is more, "When will people go back to their pre-pandemic behaviors because they precieve the risks to be equivalent to the world pre-COVID" I'd say most people are already there - I had to fly a lot for work recently, which took me through nine different airports, and I was struck by how rare it was to see another person masked - I'd estimate maybe 5% of people were masked.
posted by coffeecat at 2:13 PM on April 3, 2023 [10 favorites]
At a social level, the 1918 flu pandemic feels like a good guide. 17-50 million global deaths but it barely exists in books or art or the national historical memory and there's hardly a single physical monument to it. Similarly with COVID - I haven't seen any TV or films or books featuring the pandemic or masks.
On the whole, people just want move on.
posted by Klipspringer at 2:21 PM on April 3, 2023 [3 favorites]
On the whole, people just want move on.
posted by Klipspringer at 2:21 PM on April 3, 2023 [3 favorites]
I'm going to agree with others who have said that the answer to your question relies on a loose interpretation of the term trauma. The pandemic was an event, on a global scale, but nevertheless an event. The tornados in the midwest were an event, hurricane Katrina was an event, the war in Ukraine is an event, the thunderstorm outside a small child's window is an event.
How each individual processes events like these depends on a lot of factors and those have a bearing on whether that person is experiencing trauma, and how they recover.
I'm in healthcare. Pandemics are a known, and even though this past one was unique, it still fit many expected patterns and those of us who could call upon our training did our jobs and that was that, just as a firefighter experiences a housefire differently than those who've lost their home.
Now, the political response, and subsequent politicization of the public health response was remarkable, and has lead to an unprecedented mistrust, both of science on one side, and our fellow humans on the other. This, plus "pandemic fatigue", plus the economic fallout and a host of other pandemic adjacent changes have made the world different than it was in february 2020.
But as others have said, life is change, and humans adapt well or poorly to that change. Generalizing beyond that is probably not going to be satisfying.
posted by OHenryPacey at 2:30 PM on April 3, 2023 [3 favorites]
How each individual processes events like these depends on a lot of factors and those have a bearing on whether that person is experiencing trauma, and how they recover.
I'm in healthcare. Pandemics are a known, and even though this past one was unique, it still fit many expected patterns and those of us who could call upon our training did our jobs and that was that, just as a firefighter experiences a housefire differently than those who've lost their home.
Now, the political response, and subsequent politicization of the public health response was remarkable, and has lead to an unprecedented mistrust, both of science on one side, and our fellow humans on the other. This, plus "pandemic fatigue", plus the economic fallout and a host of other pandemic adjacent changes have made the world different than it was in february 2020.
But as others have said, life is change, and humans adapt well or poorly to that change. Generalizing beyond that is probably not going to be satisfying.
posted by OHenryPacey at 2:30 PM on April 3, 2023 [3 favorites]
People respond to this type of stressor in very different ways. My own response is -- how can I explain this -- to try to get as low to the ground as I can. It's like taking stock of everything I depended on that is now unavailable to me, and working out how to live without it, and gaming out how long I can go. Leaning on some of these again would actually be more work than continuing the practice, because my trust in those pieces of society, and in many specific people and institutions, is gone. It really is a lot like what my mother has said about the Depression.
I agree with Klipspringer, though, that collective amnesia seems to be the more common urge here. I don't really understand why. I think if our next pandemic comes too soon, we may find out that this amnesia is at the surface level only -- I think even the half-measures we took then will prove to be too much for most. In a way, that's a persistent trauma response, too.
posted by eirias at 2:35 PM on April 3, 2023 [4 favorites]
I agree with Klipspringer, though, that collective amnesia seems to be the more common urge here. I don't really understand why. I think if our next pandemic comes too soon, we may find out that this amnesia is at the surface level only -- I think even the half-measures we took then will prove to be too much for most. In a way, that's a persistent trauma response, too.
posted by eirias at 2:35 PM on April 3, 2023 [4 favorites]
It must be very different in various places, depending on folks' pandemic experiences. My perspective on this differs greatly from some so far. I feel like I still see the effects of pandemic trauma all the time, here in New York City. This definitely feels like a Great Depression–level disruption that will shape my behavior and others' for a long time.
For some perspective, I've been thinking a lot about my grandparents. My maternal grandparents changed their entire religion, choosing to leave Judaism due to their wartime and Depression-era experiences, which led them to get involved in an ethical society and the peace movement. That had repercussions for the next two generations of that side of the family. I'm thinking about my paternal grandmother, whose food we could never trust because she would keep it way longer than our comfort level. Those Depression habits have never gone away. If you think about epigenetics (see "Híyoge owísisi tánga itá (Cricket egg stories)"), it is clear that grandparent-generation experiences affect animals in subtle ways, even a generation or two down the line.
So if you think about it that way, it's early days. And I still see a lot of trauma behavior among friends in general, and especially in dating circles. You start talking to someone and realize they haven't fully processed the events of the past few years, or that they want to process some of it by talking to you because they don't have a lot of people close to them who they can talk to about these sorts of things. You realize a lot of people are carrying around a lot of anger and frustration about how the pandemic has delayed life milestones, ruined relationships, cost people careers, etc. And as others have mentioned, you can tell that people are carrying a lot of mistrust of each other, former perceived authorities, etc. You see people judging each other due to their continued pandemic-era habits (hand-washing, masking, etc.).
The conversation takes a turn and you find out that the person you're talking to knew a lot of people who died in the past three years. More than a dozen people in my life, some of whom were dear to me, died in that time—only some from COVID, but the circumstances led to delayed diagnoses, infections, social isolation, depression, etc. There have also been more heart attacks and strokes stemming from COVID—those were some of the ones that hit people I knew. I met someone who worked as an NYC paramedic in the early days of the pandemic—no way he'll escape those experiences.
I know many who have gotten sick during the pandemic or who otherwise have had treatments like chemo or operations delayed due to nonessential procedures getting paused. I know folks who had treatments delayed or even died from preventable infections (COVID or otherwise) in the past few years (and still ongoing!). I'm pretty sure at least one dear friend died because of a medical mistake made deadly due to the distraction of pandemic circumstances. Those are a few examples of an overall trend.
I know a lot of people dealing with ongoing anxiety and depression, especially those who work in vulnerable positions (teachers, health-care workers, restaurant workers). A lot of people's savings are still depleted in an ongoing way, and they're having to make hard choices about their careers, living situations, etc. Those changes will continue to reverberate, especially in communities of color.
In terms of mental-health challenges, I also know a lot of people, myself included, who have realized during the past few years that they're non-neurotypical in an ADHD or autism kind of way. I have many unread books, but I stopped being able to concentrate on reading during the pandemic. I've only managed to get through a few books during this time. I don't know when that's going to come back to me. The positive part is seeing folks realize what's affecting them, and start to get diagnoses and medication and accommodations. That's going to change a lot of lives in various ways. But the wave of people trying to cope with their inability to focus, with mental-health issues being exacerbated by the ongoing circumstances, is one of the factors that has led to shortages of medication.
I remember at one point early on providing some support to like five households of friends and family in some way, because I was the only one who already worked at home and had steady employment. (I only just yesterday broke into some of the boxes of canned and boxed goods I'd stockpiled during that time early on.) I know so many people who were involuntarily out of work for long periods of time, especially before vaccines arrived, because they were laid off, couldn't risk getting sick due to their risk factors or family members', or just worked in an unsafe industry (e.g., consider how many restaurant workers died in the past few years). I have one dear friend who died fairly recently when he just couldn't make ends meet anymore, hadn't been vaccinated, and couldn't afford to/didn't feel safe to see a doctor. He died of a heart attack. Many people's restaurant dreams or other career aspirations have dimmed.
Among those of us who just kept having our online work meetings during pandemic times, I've seen a ton of burnout and career changes. Most of us can't just keep our head down and keep working like we did before. Many are thinking more about their mortality and what they really want to do with their lives, and many are going for it. The pandemic has irrevocably altered multiple people's career paths and aspirations, and that's not just going to go away. That will continue to have life-changing effects, both positive and negative.
In terms of life milestones, I know at least one couple whose wedding was delayed (then took place in a much more minimalist form) during this time. On the positive side, I'm starting to see a ton of engagements and get invited to a wave of weddings now that it's starting to seem safer. That bounce-back is going to shape the next generation. On the negative side, I know multiple people whose divorces have been shaped by this time—couples who are separated but have been forced to keep living together due to financial and health circumstances during the pandemic, couples who are separated but haven't gotten divorced because of the danger of losing health insurance or income in pandemic times, etc. I've heard of a lot of people splitting up with significant others due to pressures of pandemic times.
As others have mentioned, consider everything the current generation of parents, kids, and teachers has already gone through in this time. Their pandemic-era experiences and delays will definitely continue to shape their lives for a long time. Millennials may not have grown up thinking a lot about polio, but it definitely shaped our parents' lives, for instance.
I've also seen a fair amount of media that's been shaped by the pandemic and masks—sometimes in obvious ways (you check out a live music recording and you see folks who were wearing masks at the time) and sometimes in subtle ways (you realize the story is dealing with trauma from an event like this). I wouldn't discount it just because you're not seeing it yet. The pandemic is still ongoing and many people are processing the multitude of effects it's had on their lives.
tl;dr: From where I sit, the pandemic has been a generation-defining era and will continue to be. It's a little hard to read comments from people who think it hasn't made a difference, but I know you're trying to faithfully report your experience, as I am. But think a little more broadly and you might start to notice some ways it still affects things in your life too.
posted by limeonaire at 2:50 PM on April 3, 2023 [37 favorites]
For some perspective, I've been thinking a lot about my grandparents. My maternal grandparents changed their entire religion, choosing to leave Judaism due to their wartime and Depression-era experiences, which led them to get involved in an ethical society and the peace movement. That had repercussions for the next two generations of that side of the family. I'm thinking about my paternal grandmother, whose food we could never trust because she would keep it way longer than our comfort level. Those Depression habits have never gone away. If you think about epigenetics (see "Híyoge owísisi tánga itá (Cricket egg stories)"), it is clear that grandparent-generation experiences affect animals in subtle ways, even a generation or two down the line.
So if you think about it that way, it's early days. And I still see a lot of trauma behavior among friends in general, and especially in dating circles. You start talking to someone and realize they haven't fully processed the events of the past few years, or that they want to process some of it by talking to you because they don't have a lot of people close to them who they can talk to about these sorts of things. You realize a lot of people are carrying around a lot of anger and frustration about how the pandemic has delayed life milestones, ruined relationships, cost people careers, etc. And as others have mentioned, you can tell that people are carrying a lot of mistrust of each other, former perceived authorities, etc. You see people judging each other due to their continued pandemic-era habits (hand-washing, masking, etc.).
The conversation takes a turn and you find out that the person you're talking to knew a lot of people who died in the past three years. More than a dozen people in my life, some of whom were dear to me, died in that time—only some from COVID, but the circumstances led to delayed diagnoses, infections, social isolation, depression, etc. There have also been more heart attacks and strokes stemming from COVID—those were some of the ones that hit people I knew. I met someone who worked as an NYC paramedic in the early days of the pandemic—no way he'll escape those experiences.
I know many who have gotten sick during the pandemic or who otherwise have had treatments like chemo or operations delayed due to nonessential procedures getting paused. I know folks who had treatments delayed or even died from preventable infections (COVID or otherwise) in the past few years (and still ongoing!). I'm pretty sure at least one dear friend died because of a medical mistake made deadly due to the distraction of pandemic circumstances. Those are a few examples of an overall trend.
I know a lot of people dealing with ongoing anxiety and depression, especially those who work in vulnerable positions (teachers, health-care workers, restaurant workers). A lot of people's savings are still depleted in an ongoing way, and they're having to make hard choices about their careers, living situations, etc. Those changes will continue to reverberate, especially in communities of color.
In terms of mental-health challenges, I also know a lot of people, myself included, who have realized during the past few years that they're non-neurotypical in an ADHD or autism kind of way. I have many unread books, but I stopped being able to concentrate on reading during the pandemic. I've only managed to get through a few books during this time. I don't know when that's going to come back to me. The positive part is seeing folks realize what's affecting them, and start to get diagnoses and medication and accommodations. That's going to change a lot of lives in various ways. But the wave of people trying to cope with their inability to focus, with mental-health issues being exacerbated by the ongoing circumstances, is one of the factors that has led to shortages of medication.
I remember at one point early on providing some support to like five households of friends and family in some way, because I was the only one who already worked at home and had steady employment. (I only just yesterday broke into some of the boxes of canned and boxed goods I'd stockpiled during that time early on.) I know so many people who were involuntarily out of work for long periods of time, especially before vaccines arrived, because they were laid off, couldn't risk getting sick due to their risk factors or family members', or just worked in an unsafe industry (e.g., consider how many restaurant workers died in the past few years). I have one dear friend who died fairly recently when he just couldn't make ends meet anymore, hadn't been vaccinated, and couldn't afford to/didn't feel safe to see a doctor. He died of a heart attack. Many people's restaurant dreams or other career aspirations have dimmed.
Among those of us who just kept having our online work meetings during pandemic times, I've seen a ton of burnout and career changes. Most of us can't just keep our head down and keep working like we did before. Many are thinking more about their mortality and what they really want to do with their lives, and many are going for it. The pandemic has irrevocably altered multiple people's career paths and aspirations, and that's not just going to go away. That will continue to have life-changing effects, both positive and negative.
In terms of life milestones, I know at least one couple whose wedding was delayed (then took place in a much more minimalist form) during this time. On the positive side, I'm starting to see a ton of engagements and get invited to a wave of weddings now that it's starting to seem safer. That bounce-back is going to shape the next generation. On the negative side, I know multiple people whose divorces have been shaped by this time—couples who are separated but have been forced to keep living together due to financial and health circumstances during the pandemic, couples who are separated but haven't gotten divorced because of the danger of losing health insurance or income in pandemic times, etc. I've heard of a lot of people splitting up with significant others due to pressures of pandemic times.
As others have mentioned, consider everything the current generation of parents, kids, and teachers has already gone through in this time. Their pandemic-era experiences and delays will definitely continue to shape their lives for a long time. Millennials may not have grown up thinking a lot about polio, but it definitely shaped our parents' lives, for instance.
I've also seen a fair amount of media that's been shaped by the pandemic and masks—sometimes in obvious ways (you check out a live music recording and you see folks who were wearing masks at the time) and sometimes in subtle ways (you realize the story is dealing with trauma from an event like this). I wouldn't discount it just because you're not seeing it yet. The pandemic is still ongoing and many people are processing the multitude of effects it's had on their lives.
tl;dr: From where I sit, the pandemic has been a generation-defining era and will continue to be. It's a little hard to read comments from people who think it hasn't made a difference, but I know you're trying to faithfully report your experience, as I am. But think a little more broadly and you might start to notice some ways it still affects things in your life too.
posted by limeonaire at 2:50 PM on April 3, 2023 [37 favorites]
One more thing I would say: "Just wanting to move on" doesn't mean someone doesn't have trauma. That's just one way someone might currently be dealing (or not dealing) with their trauma.
posted by limeonaire at 2:55 PM on April 3, 2023 [21 favorites]
posted by limeonaire at 2:55 PM on April 3, 2023 [21 favorites]
Whose trauma are you asking about? The spectrum of traumas experienced since 2020 range from being isolated and missing school to losing multiple family members in unthinkable ways. Not to mention the traumas of treating thousands of Covid patients without the political, financial, or administrative support required. A colleague of mine who lives in West Virginia and whose family were all anti-vax, anti-mask Covid hoaxers lost her conspiracy theorist grandmother to Covid—and then lost four additional immediate family members who all caught Covid at the funeral. I think the answer in these more extreme cases is probably never.
In my case, I lost my brother when he could not receive specialist medical care in Brooklyn in Feb 2020 because his hospital suspended neurological testing he needed for diagnosis. He caught Covid and died a horrible, painful, prolonged death. Alone. Surrounded by strangers. I will never get over the entirely preventable circumstances that led to his death. My PTSD may have lessened somewhat, but the trauma of losing trust in entire public health infrastructures, in a government response that I was promised but that quickly dissipated, and in my fellow humans will never go away. I even attempted to cope with my trauma by going to grad school for public health but ultimately quit because the program did not adapt to its newly motivated and traumatized student body’s needs.
I’ve learned to think of this as the new normal, and I act accordingly. Trauma is a part of my life from now on.
posted by ImproviseOrDie at 2:56 PM on April 3, 2023 [16 favorites]
In my case, I lost my brother when he could not receive specialist medical care in Brooklyn in Feb 2020 because his hospital suspended neurological testing he needed for diagnosis. He caught Covid and died a horrible, painful, prolonged death. Alone. Surrounded by strangers. I will never get over the entirely preventable circumstances that led to his death. My PTSD may have lessened somewhat, but the trauma of losing trust in entire public health infrastructures, in a government response that I was promised but that quickly dissipated, and in my fellow humans will never go away. I even attempted to cope with my trauma by going to grad school for public health but ultimately quit because the program did not adapt to its newly motivated and traumatized student body’s needs.
I’ve learned to think of this as the new normal, and I act accordingly. Trauma is a part of my life from now on.
posted by ImproviseOrDie at 2:56 PM on April 3, 2023 [16 favorites]
Oh, I think a lot of people are permanently changed - especially children. Generation C.
I myself will never forgive a lot of people for not knowing how to care about other people. As you see here, this is apparently only a bother to people who are, like, still taking it super seriously for mysterious - strongly implied irrational - reasons.
Watching genocide in action has traumatized a lot of us, and the current administration wanting some of us to please just die as soon as possible is tough, it's a difficult thing to live with and it does not swell us with hope for our future. I'll never be the kind of okay I was before, and there are a bunch of scenarios where I won't ever trust other people again, not without proof I can.
posted by Lyn Never at 3:10 PM on April 3, 2023 [23 favorites]
I myself will never forgive a lot of people for not knowing how to care about other people. As you see here, this is apparently only a bother to people who are, like, still taking it super seriously for mysterious - strongly implied irrational - reasons.
Watching genocide in action has traumatized a lot of us, and the current administration wanting some of us to please just die as soon as possible is tough, it's a difficult thing to live with and it does not swell us with hope for our future. I'll never be the kind of okay I was before, and there are a bunch of scenarios where I won't ever trust other people again, not without proof I can.
posted by Lyn Never at 3:10 PM on April 3, 2023 [23 favorites]
I think the longest lasting impression of the ongoing pandemic for me will be how we cared about each other initially, but when it was clear this wasn't like a film or show and things are all right after these commercials, that we actually had to continue to care for each other, we decided not to. We decided it was too hard. I started the pandemic working in a hospital that was barely staffed pre-COVID and once the lockdown happened, I knew--I knew--it was going to get so much worse. I continued to work in medical admin and watched how nurses and doctors went from being heroes to being reviled within a year. I dealt with directly and nearby as grown-ass adults yelled and threatened me and my co-workers because we still have a mask requirement (it's a medical fucking setting) to be in the building.
Whatever comes next as a pandemic, and oh there will be more as the planet gets warmer and we destroy the ecosystem, I hope it's nasty because I think it would take something very very nasty and super infectious for us to actually band together. But I won't hold my breath.
posted by Kitteh at 3:34 PM on April 3, 2023 [13 favorites]
Whatever comes next as a pandemic, and oh there will be more as the planet gets warmer and we destroy the ecosystem, I hope it's nasty because I think it would take something very very nasty and super infectious for us to actually band together. But I won't hold my breath.
posted by Kitteh at 3:34 PM on April 3, 2023 [13 favorites]
The pandemic is very much still happening and still traumatizing. In fact, there's a current uptick in cases worldwide. (Hence why I cannot do more than skim these responses.) There are thousands dying per week. It is disabling millions. It fucks up your entire immune system. Those of us who are high risk cannot access even basic medical care without risk, let alone social outings.
It will last lifetimes, both the mental and physical trauma. It has changed the trajectory of humanity, forever. Literally. Our bodies are changed. We don't even know what it will do to the next generations, born of people harmed by the virus.
If you're asking personally - never. To see millions not care if I live or die, to not care if myself or others or even themselves get sick and stay sick? Never. It's horrifying.
Wear a mask. Get vaxed.
posted by Crystalinne at 3:48 PM on April 3, 2023 [20 favorites]
It will last lifetimes, both the mental and physical trauma. It has changed the trajectory of humanity, forever. Literally. Our bodies are changed. We don't even know what it will do to the next generations, born of people harmed by the virus.
If you're asking personally - never. To see millions not care if I live or die, to not care if myself or others or even themselves get sick and stay sick? Never. It's horrifying.
Wear a mask. Get vaxed.
posted by Crystalinne at 3:48 PM on April 3, 2023 [20 favorites]
P.S. If you haven't observed how the post-secondary education system is in crisis for those on the teaching side, the sources indexed here are a starting point.
posted by sindark at 5:21 PM on April 3, 2023
posted by sindark at 5:21 PM on April 3, 2023
It's been traumatizing to me to see people going along with decisions to "get back to normal" despite all evidence that things are still abnormal, and without taking actions that would make a return to "normal" a bit safer. For example, in February this year our university went along with the Japanese government decision to make mask wearing a matter of "personal choice" and to downgrade the legal classification of covid on the basis that the death rate and rate of serious acute cases had decreased ... despite the fact that the actual number of deaths in January was the highest recorded in Japan to date, and completely ignoring the issue of long covid. Plus, the university has done nothing as far as I can find out to seriously improve indoor air quality, which is an absolute bare minimum thing to do before deciding that masks can be optional. The issue of people with particular vulnerabilities was also not addressed.
The CDC updated their "Guidance for Certifying Deaths Due to Coronavirus Disease 2019 (COVID–19)" in February 2023 to include guidance for certifying deaths due to post-acute sequelae of covid (long covid). This makes it clear that the acute stage of infection is not the only thing we should be concerned about (the relevant part is pasted below for those who are interested). I find it strange that people seem to be so confident that they will be the ones who will escape damage to their health, and shocked that they are apparently willing to abandon "the vulnerable" to their fates.
02/27/2023
https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/nvss/reporting-guidance.htm
(Direct link to PDF:https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/nvss/vsrg/vsrg03-508.pdf)
pp. 2-3
"Certifying deaths due to post-acute sequelae of COVID-19
"In the acute phase, clinical manifestations and complications of COVID-19 of varying degrees have been documented, including death. However, patients who recover from the acute phase of the infection can still suffer long-term effects. Post-acute sequelae of COVID-19 (PASC), commonly referred to as “long COVID,” refers to the long-term symptoms, signs, and complications experienced by some patients who have recovered from the acute phase of COVID-19. Emerging evidence suggests that severe acute respiratory syndrome coronavirus 2 (SARS-CoV-2), the virus that causes COVID-19, can have lasting effects on nearly every organ and organ system of the body weeks, months, and potentially years after infection. Documented serious post-COVID-19 conditions include cardiovascular, pulmonary, neurological, renal, endocrine, hematological, and gastrointestinal complications, as well as death.
"Consequently, when completing the death certificate, certifiers should carefully review and consider the decedent’s medical history and records, laboratory test results, and autopsy report, if one is available. For decedents who had a previous SARS- CoV-2 infection and were diagnosed with a post-COVID-19 condition, the certifier may consider the possibility that the death was due to long-term complications of COVID-19, even if the original infection occurred months or years before death."
posted by mydonkeybenjamin at 5:44 PM on April 3, 2023 [6 favorites]
The CDC updated their "Guidance for Certifying Deaths Due to Coronavirus Disease 2019 (COVID–19)" in February 2023 to include guidance for certifying deaths due to post-acute sequelae of covid (long covid). This makes it clear that the acute stage of infection is not the only thing we should be concerned about (the relevant part is pasted below for those who are interested). I find it strange that people seem to be so confident that they will be the ones who will escape damage to their health, and shocked that they are apparently willing to abandon "the vulnerable" to their fates.
02/27/2023
https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/nvss/reporting-guidance.htm
(Direct link to PDF:https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/nvss/vsrg/vsrg03-508.pdf)
pp. 2-3
"Certifying deaths due to post-acute sequelae of COVID-19
"In the acute phase, clinical manifestations and complications of COVID-19 of varying degrees have been documented, including death. However, patients who recover from the acute phase of the infection can still suffer long-term effects. Post-acute sequelae of COVID-19 (PASC), commonly referred to as “long COVID,” refers to the long-term symptoms, signs, and complications experienced by some patients who have recovered from the acute phase of COVID-19. Emerging evidence suggests that severe acute respiratory syndrome coronavirus 2 (SARS-CoV-2), the virus that causes COVID-19, can have lasting effects on nearly every organ and organ system of the body weeks, months, and potentially years after infection. Documented serious post-COVID-19 conditions include cardiovascular, pulmonary, neurological, renal, endocrine, hematological, and gastrointestinal complications, as well as death.
"Consequently, when completing the death certificate, certifiers should carefully review and consider the decedent’s medical history and records, laboratory test results, and autopsy report, if one is available. For decedents who had a previous SARS- CoV-2 infection and were diagnosed with a post-COVID-19 condition, the certifier may consider the possibility that the death was due to long-term complications of COVID-19, even if the original infection occurred months or years before death."
posted by mydonkeybenjamin at 5:44 PM on April 3, 2023 [6 favorites]
At a social level, the 1918 flu pandemic feels like a good guide. 17-50 million global deaths but it barely exists in books or art or the national historical memory and there's hardly a single physical monument to it. .
Only time will tell, but I'm personally confident that the 1918 flu pandemic is going to be the model, not the great depression (which in addition to personal trauma led to all kinds of policy and structural changes). Or to put it a different way, the traumas will be seen and experienced mostly at a personal level, not at a societal level.
posted by Dip Flash at 6:45 PM on April 3, 2023 [3 favorites]
Only time will tell, but I'm personally confident that the 1918 flu pandemic is going to be the model, not the great depression (which in addition to personal trauma led to all kinds of policy and structural changes). Or to put it a different way, the traumas will be seen and experienced mostly at a personal level, not at a societal level.
posted by Dip Flash at 6:45 PM on April 3, 2023 [3 favorites]
It was only last week that a fellow nurse and I were able to look each other in the eye and say out loud for the first time, “I thought I was going to die. And if I lived, I could not see a way in which this pandemic ended without many of my beloved coworkers dying.”
Once we said it we sat in awkward silence for a second and then immediately changed the subject.
I work in the operating room at a Level I trauma center. I have seen every imaginable kind of bodily injury and borne witness to extraordinary human suffering and tragedy. I almost certainly needed therapy before the pandemic just to process the things I see on a random Tuesday afternoon.
I absolutely need it now, more than ever, and I don’t know if I’ll ever be brave enough to get it. You want to talk about when the trauma might end? Some of us can’t even allow it to start.
posted by jesourie at 7:40 PM on April 3, 2023 [52 favorites]
Once we said it we sat in awkward silence for a second and then immediately changed the subject.
I work in the operating room at a Level I trauma center. I have seen every imaginable kind of bodily injury and borne witness to extraordinary human suffering and tragedy. I almost certainly needed therapy before the pandemic just to process the things I see on a random Tuesday afternoon.
I absolutely need it now, more than ever, and I don’t know if I’ll ever be brave enough to get it. You want to talk about when the trauma might end? Some of us can’t even allow it to start.
posted by jesourie at 7:40 PM on April 3, 2023 [52 favorites]
I have no useful data to answer your question, but I know I've been profoundly changed, in a largely negative way, by the pandemic. It was an incredible shock to me to see just how many people were either ignorant or just didn't care about basic precautions, and that's coming as someone living in Japan, where the government just ended the official suggestion that people wear masks indoors and on public transportation (legally, mandates aren't an option here). I wasn't prepared by just how many people didn't know (or care enough to find out) or flat out didn't give a shit. In my mind, I'd always known that there was a percentage of population like that, but I wasn't ready to see just how large a percentage it actually was. For whatever reason, I'd still, after all these years, held onto some sort of optimism about things, and I'm not over losing that, and don't know how long it will take to recover from it. Hell, working at a school and seeing science teachers with their masks on their chins, leaving the bathroom without washing their hands, I mean, fuck. I have no real way to deal with that.
Seeing someone with their nose hanging out inspires an actual feeling of anger and disgust that I have to push away. In my mind, I'm thinking "It's been three fucking years, we can train dogs faster than that" and I can't really make that stop. I did my best to keep up on the best practices, and the understanding that masks do more for others than they do the wearers, and I took that to heart, but that also means that my brain registers people not wearing masks as selfish assholes that care more about their comfort than other people's lives. When I see someone not wearing a mask at all, while not as bad as it was at the beginning, it still triggers a "there is mortal danger here" response in my brain, and I'm not sure how to deal with the new school year coming up where masks are no longer mandatory at school. That I work with (and under) people who have been agitating for this for the better part of two years is a source of ongoing stress, and is making me increasingly want to quit this job, even though that would be shooting myself in the foot, career-wise.
It took me a good two years to really start socializing in any kind of going out into the world kind of way, and I am definitely still more comfortable staying home by myself than making any effort to find someone to go out with, even though I know I'm miserably lonely, and this is contributing to it.
I am, and have been struggling with this. I know I'm just one person, but goddamn, I can't be the only person just deeply crushed by how terribly we've decided, on the whole, to respond to this. I was raised on the idea that people are supposed to come together in times of crisis, and to help each other, and I feel like a damn fool for believing in fairy tales.
posted by Ghidorah at 7:54 PM on April 3, 2023 [24 favorites]
Seeing someone with their nose hanging out inspires an actual feeling of anger and disgust that I have to push away. In my mind, I'm thinking "It's been three fucking years, we can train dogs faster than that" and I can't really make that stop. I did my best to keep up on the best practices, and the understanding that masks do more for others than they do the wearers, and I took that to heart, but that also means that my brain registers people not wearing masks as selfish assholes that care more about their comfort than other people's lives. When I see someone not wearing a mask at all, while not as bad as it was at the beginning, it still triggers a "there is mortal danger here" response in my brain, and I'm not sure how to deal with the new school year coming up where masks are no longer mandatory at school. That I work with (and under) people who have been agitating for this for the better part of two years is a source of ongoing stress, and is making me increasingly want to quit this job, even though that would be shooting myself in the foot, career-wise.
It took me a good two years to really start socializing in any kind of going out into the world kind of way, and I am definitely still more comfortable staying home by myself than making any effort to find someone to go out with, even though I know I'm miserably lonely, and this is contributing to it.
I am, and have been struggling with this. I know I'm just one person, but goddamn, I can't be the only person just deeply crushed by how terribly we've decided, on the whole, to respond to this. I was raised on the idea that people are supposed to come together in times of crisis, and to help each other, and I feel like a damn fool for believing in fairy tales.
posted by Ghidorah at 7:54 PM on April 3, 2023 [24 favorites]
I never tested positive for covid at all, although I am almost certain I had it earlier in 2020 than there was official community transmission where I am. But I work for a county health department in the first state where someone tested positive, and I am a single parent of a kid who started kindergarten in September 2020. I was deployed to covid response twice, while also doing my job and sometimes backfilling for other people and facilitating remote kindergarten. My kiddo’s teacher recently said she’s teaching like all the kids are two years delayed as a baseline. I - a voracious reader - felt so much like my brain was a small pile of ashes that I stopped reading books. I still feel squirrely and angry and burned out. So the trauma isn’t going away any time soon over here, either.
posted by centrifugal at 8:50 PM on April 3, 2023 [5 favorites]
posted by centrifugal at 8:50 PM on April 3, 2023 [5 favorites]
Fear of Covid is gone but the burn out remains.
Putting in extra effort at work for some imagined payout has been exposed for the illusion it is. Quality time with loved ones is all that matters now. That’s how the trauma manifests for me. Will it go away? I can’t see myself hustling anymore. It’s hard to separate Covid trauma from the other traumas that came on the heels of it (Jan 6 / George Floyd / closed borders / inflation and later, the invasion of Ukraine). The world just seems so categorically different now than pre 2020 I don’t see things going back, if that’s what you’re asking.
posted by St. Peepsburg at 9:32 PM on April 3, 2023 [9 favorites]
Putting in extra effort at work for some imagined payout has been exposed for the illusion it is. Quality time with loved ones is all that matters now. That’s how the trauma manifests for me. Will it go away? I can’t see myself hustling anymore. It’s hard to separate Covid trauma from the other traumas that came on the heels of it (Jan 6 / George Floyd / closed borders / inflation and later, the invasion of Ukraine). The world just seems so categorically different now than pre 2020 I don’t see things going back, if that’s what you’re asking.
posted by St. Peepsburg at 9:32 PM on April 3, 2023 [9 favorites]
I'd say the trauma is already long over for most people. Not everyone, of course, but the question was "most people," and there's no way that I can imagine that >50% of people are still traumatized.
posted by Bugbread at 12:21 AM on April 4, 2023 [4 favorites]
posted by Bugbread at 12:21 AM on April 4, 2023 [4 favorites]
Only time will tell, but I'm personally confident that the 1918 flu pandemic is going to be the model, not the great depression (which in addition to personal trauma led to all kinds of policy and structural changes). Or to put it a different way, the traumas will be seen and experienced mostly at a personal level, not at a societal level.
I’m still holding out hope that this will be one of the building blocks of history that, in retrospect, will have pushed us to improve ventilation and filtration in indoor spaces. Post epidemic amnesia notwithstanding, we did eventually clean our water. And it isn’t only COVID we could defang a little bit if we did so. ASHRAE hopes to release new indoor air standards in June.
posted by eirias at 4:23 AM on April 4, 2023 [5 favorites]
I’m still holding out hope that this will be one of the building blocks of history that, in retrospect, will have pushed us to improve ventilation and filtration in indoor spaces. Post epidemic amnesia notwithstanding, we did eventually clean our water. And it isn’t only COVID we could defang a little bit if we did so. ASHRAE hopes to release new indoor air standards in June.
posted by eirias at 4:23 AM on April 4, 2023 [5 favorites]
I've started and deleted like fifteen answers to this, so I'll just cosign what jesourie said. For those of us in healthcare, the trauma is ongoing, and we are not even close to the psychological safety and distance we need to process it. (Not to mention we are crap about our own physical or mental health at baseline.)
As just one example, we just had the Match, the week when graduating medical students learn where they have been assigned for residency. For two years in a row, emergency medicine, traditionally a high-demand specialty with less than 10 unfilled spots a year nationwide, has been decimated. 219 unfilled positions last year, and more than 500 this year. That's a looming shortage of trained ED docs, just in time for the next pandemic. Good luck, y'all.
posted by basalganglia at 4:49 AM on April 4, 2023 [36 favorites]
As just one example, we just had the Match, the week when graduating medical students learn where they have been assigned for residency. For two years in a row, emergency medicine, traditionally a high-demand specialty with less than 10 unfilled spots a year nationwide, has been decimated. 219 unfilled positions last year, and more than 500 this year. That's a looming shortage of trained ED docs, just in time for the next pandemic. Good luck, y'all.
posted by basalganglia at 4:49 AM on April 4, 2023 [36 favorites]
ASHRAE hopes to release new indoor air standards in June.
Great to hear that, eirias! I also hope that eventually we will see lasting improvements to indoor air quality as a result of the pandemic. There was a Clean Air Forum held at Parliament House in Canberra, Australia the other day, which many are seeing as a very positive step in the right direction for Australia on this issue.
https://twitter.com/CrabbBrendan/status/1641007957965176834
posted by mydonkeybenjamin at 5:46 AM on April 4, 2023 [2 favorites]
Great to hear that, eirias! I also hope that eventually we will see lasting improvements to indoor air quality as a result of the pandemic. There was a Clean Air Forum held at Parliament House in Canberra, Australia the other day, which many are seeing as a very positive step in the right direction for Australia on this issue.
https://twitter.com/CrabbBrendan/status/1641007957965176834
posted by mydonkeybenjamin at 5:46 AM on April 4, 2023 [2 favorites]
We were very safe during the peak of COVID: I worked from home, and we were lucky to only have mild COVID cases.
But the buffer that enabled me to be polite to people who have decided to be selfish is just gone.
Non-maskers, anti-vaxxers, people who want to defund universal free school lunches, aggressive drivers, litterbugs, smokers, the entire fucking Republican Christian gun-toting crowd, the health insurance industry...I hate them and I won't be polite to them any more.
They have openly rejected the social contract, and I can't see how -- or why -- to repair that breach solely from my side.
posted by wenestvedt at 8:22 AM on April 4, 2023 [15 favorites]
But the buffer that enabled me to be polite to people who have decided to be selfish is just gone.
Non-maskers, anti-vaxxers, people who want to defund universal free school lunches, aggressive drivers, litterbugs, smokers, the entire fucking Republican Christian gun-toting crowd, the health insurance industry...I hate them and I won't be polite to them any more.
They have openly rejected the social contract, and I can't see how -- or why -- to repair that breach solely from my side.
posted by wenestvedt at 8:22 AM on April 4, 2023 [15 favorites]
Harsh, yeah — but I think it’s part of the shape of the lingering trauma for some of us (and as some responses upthread suggest, the more most people move on, the heavier a burden it becomes for those left behind). I don’t endorse the rage, but I have at times felt it myself and it’s affected some of my relationships. It really sucks!
I think the best possible me would recast it as — okay, what would I do if I moved to a place where the water wasn’t treated? I wouldn’t get angry at people for continuing to eat and use the toilet and generally be human. I’d boil my water, I’d be careful where I ate, and I’d advocate, to whatever extent I could manage, for infrastructure improvement. That’s probably the best response here. Wear my mask, eat outside, push leaders to make their buildings safer.
But the feeling that other people — specific other people, people I have loved and supported — don’t mind me carrying this burden alone; the knowledge that the difficulties I went through when trying to support a parent through end-of-life while Omicron bloomed unabated and all of society decided to move on, those difficulties did not matter as much to them as being able to get a cup of coffee whenever they wanted one; these things are so, so painful. We loved and trusted people and they failed us. You can’t ask this question here and not expect some of these stories to emerge.
posted by eirias at 9:15 AM on April 4, 2023 [12 favorites]
I think the best possible me would recast it as — okay, what would I do if I moved to a place where the water wasn’t treated? I wouldn’t get angry at people for continuing to eat and use the toilet and generally be human. I’d boil my water, I’d be careful where I ate, and I’d advocate, to whatever extent I could manage, for infrastructure improvement. That’s probably the best response here. Wear my mask, eat outside, push leaders to make their buildings safer.
But the feeling that other people — specific other people, people I have loved and supported — don’t mind me carrying this burden alone; the knowledge that the difficulties I went through when trying to support a parent through end-of-life while Omicron bloomed unabated and all of society decided to move on, those difficulties did not matter as much to them as being able to get a cup of coffee whenever they wanted one; these things are so, so painful. We loved and trusted people and they failed us. You can’t ask this question here and not expect some of these stories to emerge.
posted by eirias at 9:15 AM on April 4, 2023 [12 favorites]
I'm over 65, and Covid isolation has lingering effects. I still don't feel comfortable in crowded spaces, and isolation ended some friendships that didn't do well with distance. I'm out of the habit of going out. I'm planning to attend some events this year that haven't been held since 2019 and feel both excited and weird about it.
posted by theora55 at 11:41 AM on April 4, 2023 [8 favorites]
posted by theora55 at 11:41 AM on April 4, 2023 [8 favorites]
I won't comment on the larger traumas, but a LOT of people I know and meet make comments about being "out of practice" or state they are having trouble socializing easily in groups of newish people, remembering names, etc.
posted by tiny frying pan at 11:42 AM on April 4, 2023 [9 favorites]
posted by tiny frying pan at 11:42 AM on April 4, 2023 [9 favorites]
It will be like having lived through the Great Depression. You can still see the effects of the latter in elderly people. One of my nintyish relatives has such a collection of empty plastic nut jars! Some effects will be lifelong.
posted by metonym at 12:15 PM on April 4, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by metonym at 12:15 PM on April 4, 2023 [2 favorites]
I’m with jesourie and basalganglia. For the folks saying they don’t know anyone who experienced trauma, they must not know anyone who works in healthcare. I don’t think any frontline medical staff have forgotten anything and we still aren’t back to baseline, not even close. The landscape and our professions have been altered permanently. I think about the *millions* of people who died all the time, how in over our heads we were, how completely insane the first and second waves were. How the people still working are the ones who didn’t die, who didn’t burn out completely, or who have their blinders too firmly on to leave and take care of themselves.
I won’t go into specifics here but providing healthcare during a pandemic of a novel virus is truly the stuff of nightmares.
posted by stillmoving at 12:31 PM on April 4, 2023 [10 favorites]
I won’t go into specifics here but providing healthcare during a pandemic of a novel virus is truly the stuff of nightmares.
posted by stillmoving at 12:31 PM on April 4, 2023 [10 favorites]
I think for the vast majority of people I know, the trauma began ending when we got covid and recovered, and it became apparent that nobody was going to avoid getting it. So that would be starting around December 2021 (omicron). But for me the trauma was not totally done until I started really seeing and believing that my son was readjusting socially. It’s truly in the rear-view mirror now for most people.
posted by haptic_avenger at 12:48 PM on April 4, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by haptic_avenger at 12:48 PM on April 4, 2023 [1 favorite]
(Yes - a lot of trauma for me personally ended once I had covid and survived with no lasting symptoms. A lot of the fear went away after that, and I think that's natural.)
posted by tiny frying pan at 12:50 PM on April 4, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by tiny frying pan at 12:50 PM on April 4, 2023 [1 favorite]
So much has changed. There's been a real fraying in the social contract, such that it ever existed.
And I agree with folks who are saying that young people will likely have this resonate this entire lives. My kids are young adults, and in conversations with other parents, we have talked a lot about how tough this has been on kids who were adolescents during the pandemic: just when you are really trying to be independent and define yourself separately from your parents and spend more time with peers, you were stuck at home with siblings and parents, and everyone was stressed. And that's not even counting the educational gaps for kids. All of this is going to reverberate for a long time.
I just read an article where a young person was saying they were tired of hearing about 9/11 from 30-something people. Well, 9/11 was something that happened somewhere else and people observed it more than being in it (I'm not talking about folks who were in the immediate areas around the World Trade Center and such). And yet it was a huge moment for so many people. Well, we all experienced the pandemic. There's never been quite a worldwide experience like it, has there?
We're not going back, and so it's more a matter of how we move forward. But the world has changed.
posted by bluedaisy at 12:52 PM on April 4, 2023 [2 favorites]
And I agree with folks who are saying that young people will likely have this resonate this entire lives. My kids are young adults, and in conversations with other parents, we have talked a lot about how tough this has been on kids who were adolescents during the pandemic: just when you are really trying to be independent and define yourself separately from your parents and spend more time with peers, you were stuck at home with siblings and parents, and everyone was stressed. And that's not even counting the educational gaps for kids. All of this is going to reverberate for a long time.
I just read an article where a young person was saying they were tired of hearing about 9/11 from 30-something people. Well, 9/11 was something that happened somewhere else and people observed it more than being in it (I'm not talking about folks who were in the immediate areas around the World Trade Center and such). And yet it was a huge moment for so many people. Well, we all experienced the pandemic. There's never been quite a worldwide experience like it, has there?
We're not going back, and so it's more a matter of how we move forward. But the world has changed.
posted by bluedaisy at 12:52 PM on April 4, 2023 [2 favorites]
Forgot to say, I think a big part of the trauma for HCWs is survivor's guilt. I don't see this talked about much. (But again, if we start talking about it, we might just collapse with the weight of our words.)
I'm in my 30s and lost a number of my medical school classmates, those who stayed in NYC, to covid. For that matter, I almost went into infectious disease, and if I had, I'd probably be dead too. Best and brightest, just as we were getting established in our respective fields, after 10-15 years of post-secondary education, and for what? To get spit on by a bunch of jerkfaces, or worse? (Workplace violence against HCWs is at an all-time high. My hospital has installed metal detectors. Doesn't make me feel any safer.) That's what I mean when I say the trauma is ongoing.
My medical school had a plaque on the wall outside the first-year lecture hall with all the names of medical students who had died of TB. It's a very old medical school, so it was a very long list. I haven't been back since the pandemic, but I wonder if they will update it for covid. I hope they do. I hope no one ever forgets the hell we went through to keep the rest of you alive.
posted by basalganglia at 2:20 PM on April 4, 2023 [20 favorites]
I'm in my 30s and lost a number of my medical school classmates, those who stayed in NYC, to covid. For that matter, I almost went into infectious disease, and if I had, I'd probably be dead too. Best and brightest, just as we were getting established in our respective fields, after 10-15 years of post-secondary education, and for what? To get spit on by a bunch of jerkfaces, or worse? (Workplace violence against HCWs is at an all-time high. My hospital has installed metal detectors. Doesn't make me feel any safer.) That's what I mean when I say the trauma is ongoing.
My medical school had a plaque on the wall outside the first-year lecture hall with all the names of medical students who had died of TB. It's a very old medical school, so it was a very long list. I haven't been back since the pandemic, but I wonder if they will update it for covid. I hope they do. I hope no one ever forgets the hell we went through to keep the rest of you alive.
posted by basalganglia at 2:20 PM on April 4, 2023 [20 favorites]
I'd argue that pandemic trauma is ongoing -- what we are experiencing is political gaslighting from the CDC and other health agencies that is endangering everyone. I just "recovered" from a very bad case of COVID that I caught in Feb 2023 still has ripple effects to this day. The same day I tested positive, was the same day that San Francisco decided to lift the emergency declaration, and I cried bitterly because I was literally trapped in a hotel in San Francisco because I was so sick that I couldn't leave. You also probably are not hearing many stories of how many people are suffering silently due to long COVID and who has died and gone missing because of the pandemic. I think the trauma is very, very buried except for the most privileged folks.
posted by yueliang at 10:47 PM on April 4, 2023 [12 favorites]
posted by yueliang at 10:47 PM on April 4, 2023 [12 favorites]
Mod note: Comment removed. Let’s try and focus on the OP’s question and not other commenters.
posted by Brandon Blatcher (staff) at 5:12 AM on April 5, 2023
posted by Brandon Blatcher (staff) at 5:12 AM on April 5, 2023
I am immunocompromised, got divorced a year before the lockdown (US), lived alone for the first time in more than 25 years during the lockdown, also went through a major natural disaster during the first year of lockdown, lost two relatives, a dog, and other loved ones during the pandemic, and so on. I did have job security.
I would say that the trauma I experienced during required masking and lockdown phases was severe primarily due to social isolation and a real concern about the rupturing of the social fabric otherwise due to political divisiveness and polemics on both sides of the political spectrum (I'm a moderate). I also, at the same time, felt extremely liberated from a range of pre-pandemic social and professional constraints that, for the first time, I realized were also severely unhealthy. I felt at sea, no safe harbor between the sudden crushing constraints and sudden crushing freedoms I felt.
At this time, I feel like I am sailing into a safe harbor.
The general rule of thumb is that it takes 1-2 years to recover from the loss of essential part of your identity for every one year that you had that identity in place (e.g., if you were married for 25 years and considered it an essential part of your identity, or had a job that was essential to your identity and were abruptly let go, etc. or lost a relative, etc.) it would take 5-10 years to fully "recover." And even then waves would re-appear from time to time.
One way to answer your question is to consider that everyone will answer it differently based on where they locate the identity that the pandemic was a traumatic injury to. It would be unsafe to assume that at the individual level for anyone (e.g., I am immunocompromised and have different feelings about that and the pandemic and masks and etc. then others). But assuming it was at baseline a generalized traumatic injury to everyone, it's going to take everyone living and over the age of five and under the age of, say, randomly, 80, at least one and up to 32 years to recover.
Be well everyone. And begrudge no one their quick or slow recovery time relative to yours. If people are quick, celebrate that for them. If they are slow, understand that for them.
posted by desert exile at 2:05 PM on April 5, 2023 [7 favorites]
I would say that the trauma I experienced during required masking and lockdown phases was severe primarily due to social isolation and a real concern about the rupturing of the social fabric otherwise due to political divisiveness and polemics on both sides of the political spectrum (I'm a moderate). I also, at the same time, felt extremely liberated from a range of pre-pandemic social and professional constraints that, for the first time, I realized were also severely unhealthy. I felt at sea, no safe harbor between the sudden crushing constraints and sudden crushing freedoms I felt.
At this time, I feel like I am sailing into a safe harbor.
The general rule of thumb is that it takes 1-2 years to recover from the loss of essential part of your identity for every one year that you had that identity in place (e.g., if you were married for 25 years and considered it an essential part of your identity, or had a job that was essential to your identity and were abruptly let go, etc. or lost a relative, etc.) it would take 5-10 years to fully "recover." And even then waves would re-appear from time to time.
One way to answer your question is to consider that everyone will answer it differently based on where they locate the identity that the pandemic was a traumatic injury to. It would be unsafe to assume that at the individual level for anyone (e.g., I am immunocompromised and have different feelings about that and the pandemic and masks and etc. then others). But assuming it was at baseline a generalized traumatic injury to everyone, it's going to take everyone living and over the age of five and under the age of, say, randomly, 80, at least one and up to 32 years to recover.
Be well everyone. And begrudge no one their quick or slow recovery time relative to yours. If people are quick, celebrate that for them. If they are slow, understand that for them.
posted by desert exile at 2:05 PM on April 5, 2023 [7 favorites]
I think the majority of people are in denial/have "gone back to normal," which is why those of us who haven't may get struck out at a bit these days. I think those that "went back to normal" are probably fine, but I sure as hell can't go back to normal and probably never will. I've had to incorporate "new normal" of masking indoors, regardless of other people's opinions about it. I've given up on not eating indoors any more because too many people want/need to eat, will not or cannot do it outside, the option has been removed, and you have to consume food. But otherwise you'd think I'm "normal" because I'm leaving the house, going to shows, having my mask off in situations I don't feel comfortable in (i.e. theater shows and dinner) because at this point I don't think it's socially acceptable to be the one lone masked one on stage and you can't not eat. Even my most pandemic-safe friend is saying after three years she's tired of not being able to do much of anything and might give up on safety. Especially if this nightmare is never going to really end.
I hate living in fear, but that's just gonna be the rest of my life now. My mom asked if I was ever going to go mask-free in public again and I said probably not. Unless there's some miracle cure for catching covid or whatever else comes down the pandemic pike, probably not.
So yeah, I'm totally scarred for life. I may be better than the days of sobbing attacks multiple times a day and being afraid to be near any people the way I was in 2020, but that did major damage even if I seem pretty recovered. And when the next pandemic comes, we'll probably all get triggered again.
posted by jenfullmoon at 3:04 PM on April 5, 2023 [5 favorites]
I hate living in fear, but that's just gonna be the rest of my life now. My mom asked if I was ever going to go mask-free in public again and I said probably not. Unless there's some miracle cure for catching covid or whatever else comes down the pandemic pike, probably not.
So yeah, I'm totally scarred for life. I may be better than the days of sobbing attacks multiple times a day and being afraid to be near any people the way I was in 2020, but that did major damage even if I seem pretty recovered. And when the next pandemic comes, we'll probably all get triggered again.
posted by jenfullmoon at 3:04 PM on April 5, 2023 [5 favorites]
I mean, 1600 people died in the US from it last week, so... is it in the rear view mirror?
Personally the biggest thing has been seeing how the pressure to stop protections and the pathologizing of those who are still taking precautions started even before anyone in my household had managed to get fully vaccinated. The social construction of "it's mild" and the gap between what I understand the science to say and how we're being encouraged to act are ... If not "traumatizing" then certainly "upsetting."
That's just me, but I feel like 1 in 3 people I talk to is grappling with some kind of big emotions about the last few years.
posted by slidell at 12:01 AM on April 6, 2023 [12 favorites]
Personally the biggest thing has been seeing how the pressure to stop protections and the pathologizing of those who are still taking precautions started even before anyone in my household had managed to get fully vaccinated. The social construction of "it's mild" and the gap between what I understand the science to say and how we're being encouraged to act are ... If not "traumatizing" then certainly "upsetting."
That's just me, but I feel like 1 in 3 people I talk to is grappling with some kind of big emotions about the last few years.
posted by slidell at 12:01 AM on April 6, 2023 [12 favorites]
On whether and how the pandemic will be remembered: today I encountered a first, a song telling a pandemic-inflected story of love and loss. Sit Shiva by Gabriel Kahane (lyrics).
posted by eirias at 10:58 AM on April 30, 2023
posted by eirias at 10:58 AM on April 30, 2023
This thread is closed to new comments.
posted by pipeski at 12:47 PM on April 3, 2023 [8 favorites]