"Who" vs. "whom": Which one is correct in this context?
February 5, 2023 12:29 PM Subscribe
"When I went to the party, I met the woman who/whom I would later marry." I can come up with plausible justifications for either version. (And yes, I know that stylistically, "whom" is outdated and sounds overly formal, but I'm not concerned with style here.)
Interestingly, when I ask ChatGPT, it tells me that both versions are correct. Not that I trust ChatGPT.
Interestingly, when I ask ChatGPT, it tells me that both versions are correct. Not that I trust ChatGPT.
Response by poster: @seanmpuckett That's true, but I'm still curious about the correct usage in this case.
posted by alex1965 at 12:35 PM on February 5, 2023
posted by alex1965 at 12:35 PM on February 5, 2023
Best answer: Marry is used here as a transitive verb. Whatever pronoun you use is object (not subject) to "marry." Therefore I vote whom.
And I don't think whom is outdated or anything of the sort.
posted by If only I had a penguin... at 12:37 PM on February 5, 2023 [8 favorites]
And I don't think whom is outdated or anything of the sort.
posted by If only I had a penguin... at 12:37 PM on February 5, 2023 [8 favorites]
it's whom. (If it had been a dude, it would be "I would marry him" not "he.")
posted by fingersandtoes at 12:38 PM on February 5, 2023 [9 favorites]
posted by fingersandtoes at 12:38 PM on February 5, 2023 [9 favorites]
whom.
This is my assessment per dobbs' comment in a previous version of this question.
posted by hydra77 at 12:39 PM on February 5, 2023 [1 favorite]
This is my assessment per dobbs' comment in a previous version of this question.
posted by hydra77 at 12:39 PM on February 5, 2023 [1 favorite]
"Whom" is the correct form there. Who is subjective (it is the subject of the sentence); whom is objective (it's the object in the sentence being acted upon).
Sometimes my students find it helpful if I suggest they substitute "him" or "her" and "he" or "she." He and she are subjective; him and her are objective. So if you substitute "he" for "who" and it sounds OK, use "who." If you can substitute "her" and it sounds OK, use "whom."
In your example, try plugging in "her" to a version of your clause, "who/whom I would marry": I would marry her vs I would marry she. "Her" sounds right, and is correct, so therefore "whom" is also correct in this case.
posted by Well I never at 12:40 PM on February 5, 2023 [5 favorites]
Sometimes my students find it helpful if I suggest they substitute "him" or "her" and "he" or "she." He and she are subjective; him and her are objective. So if you substitute "he" for "who" and it sounds OK, use "who." If you can substitute "her" and it sounds OK, use "whom."
In your example, try plugging in "her" to a version of your clause, "who/whom I would marry": I would marry her vs I would marry she. "Her" sounds right, and is correct, so therefore "whom" is also correct in this case.
posted by Well I never at 12:40 PM on February 5, 2023 [5 favorites]
Response by poster: Sorry for threadsitting, but I was once told on a grammar forum (not AskMeFi) that this is correct: "Call whoever is on your mind". I was told that the entire clause "whoever is on your mind" is the object of the verb "is", so you use "whoever" (not "whomever") in this context. Or something like that. The original online discussion is lost to the sands of time. I thought that this example is similar to the original one from my question above, but maybe not.
posted by alex1965 at 12:57 PM on February 5, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by alex1965 at 12:57 PM on February 5, 2023 [1 favorite]
Response by poster: Sorry, that should be, "the object of the verb 'call' ", not "is".
posted by alex1965 at 1:03 PM on February 5, 2023
posted by alex1965 at 1:03 PM on February 5, 2023
I don’t know the mechanics of this, or even if it’s right 100% of the time, but at one point I learned to reframe my statement as another statement in order to determine if I should use who or whom. For example if you reframe your sentence to, ‘I would later marry him’ (vs ‘he’ …and you have to plug in the male pronoun for this to work), then it’s ‘whom’ in your sentence. The memory aid being that him and whom both have the M. But I could also be talking out my ass and I’d love for someone who knows for sure to pipe in about this approach.
posted by AnOrigamiLife at 1:10 PM on February 5, 2023
posted by AnOrigamiLife at 1:10 PM on February 5, 2023
As per hydra77's link to my comment in the previous thread, Whom is correct.
"You're going to marry ____." Him/her (not he/she) = whom.
According to the rule, "Call whoever is on your mind" is correct.
"____ is on your mind." She/he is on your mind (not her/him) = who. Note that this would change if the original question was simply "Who/Whom are you going to call?" (You're going to call ____.)
The mnemonic for remembering this rule is that if you can use hiM (rather than he) then the answer is whoM, otherwise it's who.
posted by dobbs at 1:30 PM on February 5, 2023 [5 favorites]
"You're going to marry ____." Him/her (not he/she) = whom.
According to the rule, "Call whoever is on your mind" is correct.
"____ is on your mind." She/he is on your mind (not her/him) = who. Note that this would change if the original question was simply "Who/Whom are you going to call?" (You're going to call ____.)
The mnemonic for remembering this rule is that if you can use hiM (rather than he) then the answer is whoM, otherwise it's who.
posted by dobbs at 1:30 PM on February 5, 2023 [5 favorites]
Whom is correct, for the reasons stated above, and okay I work in academia but I think statements that it is outdated are overbroad. It comes quite naturally to those of us old enough to have been inculcated with the rules of grammar. And we are legion.
posted by HotToddy at 1:37 PM on February 5, 2023 [6 favorites]
posted by HotToddy at 1:37 PM on February 5, 2023 [6 favorites]
Whom is correct—you met HER, not SHE, so objective case.
posted by wisekaren at 1:42 PM on February 5, 2023
posted by wisekaren at 1:42 PM on February 5, 2023
Best answer: dobbs has it, but I'll say a little more about "Call whoever is on your mind." That's an interesting one -- on the surface, "whoever" seems to play conflicting roles as both subject and object with regard to different parts of the sentence, so how does this get resolved?
Sentences have a tree-like structure. At the highest level, "Call whoever is on your mind" is "[Verb] [noun phrase]", where the verb is "call" and the noun phrase is the person to be called. In this case, the noun phrase has its own internal structure which can be analyzed into smaller parts. I won't try to do that here (because of the limitations of text and because I'll definitely mess up the syntax terminology if I try).
The point is that the noun phrase is a thing by itself, a constituent of the sentence. It passes the constituency tests: for example, it can become the answer to a question ("Whom should I call?"). On the other hand, "call whoever" isn't a constituent of the sentence. You can't ask a question like "What should I do is on my mind?" and get an answer like "Call whoever."
Now, syntax is recursive -- generally, the constituents have to be syntactically correct in themselves. "Whoever is on your mind" works as a unit; "whomever is on your mind" doesn't. Whereas it doesn't matter that "Call whoever" doesn't work as a unit, because it's not a unit in this sentence.
(Now that I've typed this out, I feel like something is still missing from the explanation, because the whole phrase "whoever is on your mind" does play an object role at the top level, and I can easily imagine that in some language this might be marked by changing the case of the head word in that phrase. English just... doesn't do that. But I'd love to hear a knowledgeable explanation of why!)
posted by aws17576 at 3:05 PM on February 5, 2023 [1 favorite]
Sentences have a tree-like structure. At the highest level, "Call whoever is on your mind" is "[Verb] [noun phrase]", where the verb is "call" and the noun phrase is the person to be called. In this case, the noun phrase has its own internal structure which can be analyzed into smaller parts. I won't try to do that here (because of the limitations of text and because I'll definitely mess up the syntax terminology if I try).
The point is that the noun phrase is a thing by itself, a constituent of the sentence. It passes the constituency tests: for example, it can become the answer to a question ("Whom should I call?"). On the other hand, "call whoever" isn't a constituent of the sentence. You can't ask a question like "What should I do is on my mind?" and get an answer like "Call whoever."
Now, syntax is recursive -- generally, the constituents have to be syntactically correct in themselves. "Whoever is on your mind" works as a unit; "whomever is on your mind" doesn't. Whereas it doesn't matter that "Call whoever" doesn't work as a unit, because it's not a unit in this sentence.
(Now that I've typed this out, I feel like something is still missing from the explanation, because the whole phrase "whoever is on your mind" does play an object role at the top level, and I can easily imagine that in some language this might be marked by changing the case of the head word in that phrase. English just... doesn't do that. But I'd love to hear a knowledgeable explanation of why!)
posted by aws17576 at 3:05 PM on February 5, 2023 [1 favorite]
Response by poster: Sorry again to threadsit, but this is so interesting I feel like I have to ask follow-up questions.
aws17576: Great analysis! I think I understand what you're saying with regard to my second example ("Call whoever is on your mind.") That makes sense, and I think that's (roughly) what the grammarians wrote many years ago when I first posed my question on the now-defunct grammar board.
Getting back to my original example: There's universal agreement here that the correct version is, "When I went to the party, I met the woman whom I would later marry". But what if we changed it up a little? "When I went to the party, I met the woman whom would later marry me." That seems obviously wrong. So is it accurate to say that the correct choice of "who" vs. "whom" is dependent on the part of the sentence that follows the word, as opposed to the part that precedes it?
posted by alex1965 at 4:15 PM on February 5, 2023
aws17576: Great analysis! I think I understand what you're saying with regard to my second example ("Call whoever is on your mind.") That makes sense, and I think that's (roughly) what the grammarians wrote many years ago when I first posed my question on the now-defunct grammar board.
Getting back to my original example: There's universal agreement here that the correct version is, "When I went to the party, I met the woman whom I would later marry". But what if we changed it up a little? "When I went to the party, I met the woman whom would later marry me." That seems obviously wrong. So is it accurate to say that the correct choice of "who" vs. "whom" is dependent on the part of the sentence that follows the word, as opposed to the part that precedes it?
posted by alex1965 at 4:15 PM on February 5, 2023
Whom is technically correct, but modern English usage is now leaning away from it. So you imply a schoolmarmish vibe if you stick to it.
posted by ovvl at 4:17 PM on February 5, 2023
posted by ovvl at 4:17 PM on February 5, 2023
I don't think "Call whoever is on your mind" is right, though (stipulating that we're in the world where "whomever" is an option; obviously it is entirely in accordance with present usage). I believe English follows the very common pattern of using some kind of objective case for subjects of accusative clauses or phrases, thus avoiding the discomfort of having more than one subject-case reference in a more heavily-marked language such as modern English's ancestors were. It makes a certain kind of sense in more heavily case-marked languages; there are lots of reasons to use a case outside the subject, but many fewer for the subject, so it's easier to mentally accommodate non-concordant objective case references than non-concordant subject case references.
So I think it's "Marry him whom you love best," (meaning "marry whatever guy you love best," not "marry this specific guy here, who you love best") not "Marry he who you love best." Just as it's "I asked him to go," not "I asked he to go." I don't think going from a non-finite to a finite verb changes that. It's an interesting question, but I don't have the leisure to look it up right now.
posted by praemunire at 4:23 PM on February 5, 2023
So I think it's "Marry him whom you love best," (meaning "marry whatever guy you love best," not "marry this specific guy here, who you love best") not "Marry he who you love best." Just as it's "I asked him to go," not "I asked he to go." I don't think going from a non-finite to a finite verb changes that. It's an interesting question, but I don't have the leisure to look it up right now.
posted by praemunire at 4:23 PM on February 5, 2023
So is it accurate to say that the correct choice of "who" vs. "whom" is dependent on the part of the sentence that follows the word, as opposed to the part that precedes it?
The woman in this example is doing the marrying, so she is the subject rather than the object — you could rearrange the sentence and it would still be wrong.
posted by derrinyet at 4:41 PM on February 5, 2023 [3 favorites]
The woman in this example is doing the marrying, so she is the subject rather than the object — you could rearrange the sentence and it would still be wrong.
posted by derrinyet at 4:41 PM on February 5, 2023 [3 favorites]
When I'm stumped I sometimes . . . diagram the sentence. Is this grammar technique even taught anymore? I have found it to be helpful in these kind of thorny situations because it forces analysis of what modifies what and pinpoints subject/verb/object agreement. It becomes an exercise in solving a puzzle.
posted by citygirl at 5:16 PM on February 5, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by citygirl at 5:16 PM on February 5, 2023 [1 favorite]
The way I learned this is to reword and replace who/whom with they/them (I'm guessing it works just like the he/him above). So in your updated examples:
"When I went to the party, I met the woman whom I would later marry". = I'd later marry them = whom I'd later marry
"When I went to the party, I met the woman whom would later marry me." = they'd later marry me = who she'd later marry
posted by okayokayigive at 6:43 AM on February 6, 2023
"When I went to the party, I met the woman whom I would later marry". = I'd later marry them = whom I'd later marry
"When I went to the party, I met the woman whom would later marry me." = they'd later marry me = who she'd later marry
posted by okayokayigive at 6:43 AM on February 6, 2023
So is it accurate to say that the correct choice of "who" vs. "whom" is dependent on the part of the sentence that follows the word, as opposed to the part that precedes it?
From Garner's Modern English Usage:
Who, the nominative pronoun, is used (1) as the subject of a verb
(it was Kate who rescued the dog);
and (2) as the complement of a linking verb, i.e., as a predicate nominative:
(they know who you are).
Whom, the objective pronoun, is used (1) as the object of a verb:
(whom did you see?);
and (2) as the object of a preposition:
(the person to whom we’re indebted).
[...]
Whom is always the object of a verb, the object of a preposition, or the subject of an infinitive.
posted by Theiform at 10:22 AM on February 6, 2023
From Garner's Modern English Usage:
Who, the nominative pronoun, is used (1) as the subject of a verb
(it was Kate who rescued the dog);
and (2) as the complement of a linking verb, i.e., as a predicate nominative:
(they know who you are).
Whom, the objective pronoun, is used (1) as the object of a verb:
(whom did you see?);
and (2) as the object of a preposition:
(the person to whom we’re indebted).
[...]
Whom is always the object of a verb, the object of a preposition, or the subject of an infinitive.
posted by Theiform at 10:22 AM on February 6, 2023
Best answer: And re: whoever vs whomever:
If the word that completes the syntax after -ever is a verb, the correct choice is whoever:
they praise whoever performs well
—even if there are a few intervening words:
whoever, under these conditions, can deliver the goods on time will win the contract.
If the word that syntactically follows the -ever isn’t a verb, the correct choice is whomever:
he criticizes whomever he dislikes
—once again, even if there are a few intervening words:
we’ll help whomever, among the class members, the teachers recommend.
If you’re unsure of the correct word, choose whoever.
posted by Theiform at 10:27 AM on February 6, 2023
If the word that completes the syntax after -ever is a verb, the correct choice is whoever:
they praise whoever performs well
—even if there are a few intervening words:
whoever, under these conditions, can deliver the goods on time will win the contract.
If the word that syntactically follows the -ever isn’t a verb, the correct choice is whomever:
he criticizes whomever he dislikes
—once again, even if there are a few intervening words:
we’ll help whomever, among the class members, the teachers recommend.
If you’re unsure of the correct word, choose whoever.
posted by Theiform at 10:27 AM on February 6, 2023
This thread is closed to new comments.
posted by seanmpuckett at 12:33 PM on February 5, 2023 [6 favorites]