How can I find and claim a hoarder's forgotten assets?
January 13, 2023 9:51 AM Subscribe
I'm trying to help my mother, a hoarder, create a package for me to eventually execute her estate. We're in Ontario, Canada. What do I need?
She's a widow who owns her house outright. It's run down and the next buyer will probably demolish, but the land is quite valuable. She also has bank accounts and investments, and there is at least one safety deposit box at a nearby bank.
She has a disabled relative on social services who needs to be provided for, who will likely live for another 20-30 years. Another relative is that person's power of attorney, but just moved across the country so that might need to change.
I'm her only child and the parent of her only grandchild.
My assumption is that she'll split her estate in half to create 2 trusts, one for her relative and one for my child.
Massive complication: She's a hoarder, with all the avoidant, dissociated, irrational, irritable traits you see on the tv show. But she somehow masks very well in public, so everyone including doctors think I'm exaggerating. Nobody has been inside the house in over 2 decades except me. The appliances don't work and there are are 7 foot piles of random stuff in every room, with multiple rooms too full to enter at all. It will take thousands of human hours to clear out her home, and be very very difficult to find paperwork. Thankfully it's a dry hoard and there's no sewage or pets, but it's Level 9 on the clutter scale, super dusty with some mice, and I have panic attacks just thinking about it. She of course has no idea where many things are located, and she's starting to forget things.
She's also irrationally paranoid about confidentiality and identity theft, so she will balk at writing things down or even telling me her plans or wishes. I think she does have a will, and she actually might have done some estate planning fairly recently. The problem is that she won't tell me what, and it will be impossible to figure out where anything is.
She's 80 and her health is ok, although she's had multiple TIAs (mini-strokes) and I definitely see her physical and cognitive state starting to slip. I do know her end of life wishes (based on her religious views and how she handled my father's death) but I don't even know who her power of attorney is. Most logical choice would be me but that doesn't mean it's me.
In terms of the actual labour of wrapping things up after she passes away, I am financially stable so there's no urgency to sell the house, but I have my own young family so I truly cannot spend weeks climbing over piles like a goat to sort a 50 year hoard while having asthma attacks from the dust, trying to find unknown financial statements dating back to the 1970s. It causes me tremendous panic and stress to even contemplate.
I think I can convince her to put together a package of key info and leave it in a bank safety deposit box for me, so once she dies it's all in one place. I don't think she'll talk to me about it at all, but if I give her a list she might do some of it. Here's what I was thinking:
What to put in the safety deposit box:
Deed to the house
Account info for all bank accounts
Account info for all investments
Names of her financial advisor, lawyer... anyone else?
Keys and info for any other safety deposit boxes
Passwords to her email accounts
To do list:
Add my name to the ownership for her house and all her bank accounts
Make me her power of attorney
Transfer power of attorney for the disabled relative to me
Put my name on all safety deposit boxes
Worst case scenario-
If she doesn't put my name on anything, and I can't find the statements, how will I know what assets there are? I could absolutely imagine a large sum of money sitting forgotten in a bank forever - that's already happened when she was just in her 50s, so for sure it's more likely now. I'm happy to split everything with whatever percentage split she indicates, even if it excludes me - I'm not greedy about money. I just don't want to accidentally "donate" forgotten money to a bank.
TLDR - How can I find and claim all of a hoarder's forgotten accounts and investments?
She's a widow who owns her house outright. It's run down and the next buyer will probably demolish, but the land is quite valuable. She also has bank accounts and investments, and there is at least one safety deposit box at a nearby bank.
She has a disabled relative on social services who needs to be provided for, who will likely live for another 20-30 years. Another relative is that person's power of attorney, but just moved across the country so that might need to change.
I'm her only child and the parent of her only grandchild.
My assumption is that she'll split her estate in half to create 2 trusts, one for her relative and one for my child.
Massive complication: She's a hoarder, with all the avoidant, dissociated, irrational, irritable traits you see on the tv show. But she somehow masks very well in public, so everyone including doctors think I'm exaggerating. Nobody has been inside the house in over 2 decades except me. The appliances don't work and there are are 7 foot piles of random stuff in every room, with multiple rooms too full to enter at all. It will take thousands of human hours to clear out her home, and be very very difficult to find paperwork. Thankfully it's a dry hoard and there's no sewage or pets, but it's Level 9 on the clutter scale, super dusty with some mice, and I have panic attacks just thinking about it. She of course has no idea where many things are located, and she's starting to forget things.
She's also irrationally paranoid about confidentiality and identity theft, so she will balk at writing things down or even telling me her plans or wishes. I think she does have a will, and she actually might have done some estate planning fairly recently. The problem is that she won't tell me what, and it will be impossible to figure out where anything is.
She's 80 and her health is ok, although she's had multiple TIAs (mini-strokes) and I definitely see her physical and cognitive state starting to slip. I do know her end of life wishes (based on her religious views and how she handled my father's death) but I don't even know who her power of attorney is. Most logical choice would be me but that doesn't mean it's me.
In terms of the actual labour of wrapping things up after she passes away, I am financially stable so there's no urgency to sell the house, but I have my own young family so I truly cannot spend weeks climbing over piles like a goat to sort a 50 year hoard while having asthma attacks from the dust, trying to find unknown financial statements dating back to the 1970s. It causes me tremendous panic and stress to even contemplate.
I think I can convince her to put together a package of key info and leave it in a bank safety deposit box for me, so once she dies it's all in one place. I don't think she'll talk to me about it at all, but if I give her a list she might do some of it. Here's what I was thinking:
What to put in the safety deposit box:
Deed to the house
Account info for all bank accounts
Account info for all investments
Names of her financial advisor, lawyer... anyone else?
Keys and info for any other safety deposit boxes
Passwords to her email accounts
To do list:
Add my name to the ownership for her house and all her bank accounts
Make me her power of attorney
Transfer power of attorney for the disabled relative to me
Put my name on all safety deposit boxes
Worst case scenario-
If she doesn't put my name on anything, and I can't find the statements, how will I know what assets there are? I could absolutely imagine a large sum of money sitting forgotten in a bank forever - that's already happened when she was just in her 50s, so for sure it's more likely now. I'm happy to split everything with whatever percentage split she indicates, even if it excludes me - I'm not greedy about money. I just don't want to accidentally "donate" forgotten money to a bank.
TLDR - How can I find and claim all of a hoarder's forgotten accounts and investments?
I would really recommend that you sit down with an estate lawyer about this.
Having said that:
Another option for her - my parents have given all the information - will, accounts, insurance, wishes, etc. - to a professional co-executor (which is a service at their bank due to them being high-asset clients). If/when they pass, we know their bank will provide that information.
Barring that your idea about a safe or a safety deposit box is a good one.
Having your name on the house may not be a good idea. (see above re: lawyer.)
If she isn't willing, there are services you can hire to do track down her assets after she passes, which are expensive. You can also take her SIN number and death certificate and other paperwork to each bank and have them do a search (ask the investment arm too.) You can also look on her T5s on her taxes to see where she reported investment income from for things like mutual funds, etc. It's a lot of work. Add a search for pensions. If she has contributed to CPP you should be able to claim a death benefit that you could use perhaps for fueling the search.
I think it depends on how much time and money you want to invest. My parents are hoarders too (not quite at what sounds like your mother's level) and my sister and I have agreed we will go through the house once together for like, a few days, and then hire a service to clear things out. We may well miss some stuff (recently my parents found $$$$$ in travellers cheques from like the 80s but we are not ready to devote months to going through every box, stack, pile, etc. But it is super personal.
posted by warriorqueen at 10:21 AM on January 13, 2023 [2 favorites]
Having said that:
Another option for her - my parents have given all the information - will, accounts, insurance, wishes, etc. - to a professional co-executor (which is a service at their bank due to them being high-asset clients). If/when they pass, we know their bank will provide that information.
Barring that your idea about a safe or a safety deposit box is a good one.
Having your name on the house may not be a good idea. (see above re: lawyer.)
If she isn't willing, there are services you can hire to do track down her assets after she passes, which are expensive. You can also take her SIN number and death certificate and other paperwork to each bank and have them do a search (ask the investment arm too.) You can also look on her T5s on her taxes to see where she reported investment income from for things like mutual funds, etc. It's a lot of work. Add a search for pensions. If she has contributed to CPP you should be able to claim a death benefit that you could use perhaps for fueling the search.
I think it depends on how much time and money you want to invest. My parents are hoarders too (not quite at what sounds like your mother's level) and my sister and I have agreed we will go through the house once together for like, a few days, and then hire a service to clear things out. We may well miss some stuff (recently my parents found $$$$$ in travellers cheques from like the 80s but we are not ready to devote months to going through every box, stack, pile, etc. But it is super personal.
posted by warriorqueen at 10:21 AM on January 13, 2023 [2 favorites]
Also if you put yourself on the house make sure you understand what your liability is for property taxes.
posted by warriorqueen at 10:22 AM on January 13, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by warriorqueen at 10:22 AM on January 13, 2023 [1 favorite]
Right at the beginning of the pandemic, an old friend of my mother-in-law died. She was a hoarder and paranoid and was estranged from her family, and my MIL was the executor of her will. My MIL is 80+ years old so my wife (as provided for in the will) agreed to be the executor instead. I am a lawyer and so I was sort of the shadow executor and did the bulk of the work.
We had to go into her house - similar to you, it was no working appliances, about 5-feet of junk throughout the house, but in her case not even really working bathrooms :( - and go fishing for whatever information we could find. Eventually we got access to more than 20 accounts and recovered over $1M. But it was a real slog.
Based on your unique circumstances (i.e. your mom is so private she won't even share basic details with you), I'd say the #1 thing to try to understand/lock down is whether she has a written will and whether you know where an original copy is. The will establishes the executor (in Ontario the "estate trustee"), and the executor is the person that has all of the authority to go out and find/liquidate accounts. Once you have that authority - in the US, it's called "Letters of Office" - it makes it much easier to get stuff done. In the absence of a will, you would likely be appointed as executor anyways and you would be the person who inherits, but going thorugh the process with an original will is a big shortcut vs. no will (called "intestacy").
Having gone through this process, I totally get your feelings of anxiety and dread and you are right that it will be a long road. You are a good kid to want to do this the right way and to be thinking of your mother's feelings. I am happy to talk more by MeMail if you are interested.
posted by AgentRocket at 11:07 AM on January 13, 2023 [9 favorites]
We had to go into her house - similar to you, it was no working appliances, about 5-feet of junk throughout the house, but in her case not even really working bathrooms :( - and go fishing for whatever information we could find. Eventually we got access to more than 20 accounts and recovered over $1M. But it was a real slog.
Based on your unique circumstances (i.e. your mom is so private she won't even share basic details with you), I'd say the #1 thing to try to understand/lock down is whether she has a written will and whether you know where an original copy is. The will establishes the executor (in Ontario the "estate trustee"), and the executor is the person that has all of the authority to go out and find/liquidate accounts. Once you have that authority - in the US, it's called "Letters of Office" - it makes it much easier to get stuff done. In the absence of a will, you would likely be appointed as executor anyways and you would be the person who inherits, but going thorugh the process with an original will is a big shortcut vs. no will (called "intestacy").
Having gone through this process, I totally get your feelings of anxiety and dread and you are right that it will be a long road. You are a good kid to want to do this the right way and to be thinking of your mother's feelings. I am happy to talk more by MeMail if you are interested.
posted by AgentRocket at 11:07 AM on January 13, 2023 [9 favorites]
One really big concern is that if your mother wants to leave money to a disabled relative, in the US at least, she would really, really need to set up a trust - otherwise she could end up disqualifying her relative from continuing to receive social services. Now, if there is no will at all, everything would probably go to you as nearest relative (you can easily do check for the laws in your area to find out the default if someone dies intestate). But leaving money directly in a wall to her relative could be huge disaster for the person she is trying to help. Hopefully that will be enough motivation to get her to talk to a lawyer.
Does your mother pay bills on line or via paper checks? In either case, you probably want to talk to her about getting you access to her checking accounts so you can pay bills for her if she is temporarily incapacitated. It would also be good if she were willing to use a password manager and then put the master password in the safe deposit box or other secure place so you can get it when needed.
A backup solution is that most of the places where she is likely to have money will be sending her statements - at least annually if not quarterly or monthly (As long she hasn't moved and failed to update her address) This means that getting her mail after she dies will help you find out about more of the accounts over time. And eventually if the bank has no contact with her for a certain number of years they are required to turn the funds over to the state's department of unclaimed funds (US rules again) - they can't just keep it and absorb it into their profits. So plan on checking the list at least once a year for a number of years after her death.
posted by metahawk at 12:12 PM on January 13, 2023 [2 favorites]
Does your mother pay bills on line or via paper checks? In either case, you probably want to talk to her about getting you access to her checking accounts so you can pay bills for her if she is temporarily incapacitated. It would also be good if she were willing to use a password manager and then put the master password in the safe deposit box or other secure place so you can get it when needed.
A backup solution is that most of the places where she is likely to have money will be sending her statements - at least annually if not quarterly or monthly (As long she hasn't moved and failed to update her address) This means that getting her mail after she dies will help you find out about more of the accounts over time. And eventually if the bank has no contact with her for a certain number of years they are required to turn the funds over to the state's department of unclaimed funds (US rules again) - they can't just keep it and absorb it into their profits. So plan on checking the list at least once a year for a number of years after her death.
posted by metahawk at 12:12 PM on January 13, 2023 [2 favorites]
1) I think I can convince her to put together a package of key info and leave it in a bank safety deposit box for me, so once she dies it's all in one place.
Please make sure the safe deposit box is set up so that you can access it after her death. It may need to be created as joint ownership? Check the language in the bank's rental contract. (Random Canadian bank example 1, 2).
[I went to my brother's New York bank to notify them when he passed, to prevent 'leaks' in his own checking/saving/etc. accounts and to close our shared safe deposit box. The desk clerks were busy with other customers, so I emptied that box during the wait. When I met with the rep, she told me I'd accidentally done it in the right order -- since one account owner was deceased, I would not have had access without court documents. Again, this was in the US, not Canada, so YMMV.]
2) The hoarding, and how "everyone including doctors think I'm exaggerating".
Videos, photographs.
posted by Iris Gambol at 12:22 PM on January 13, 2023 [1 favorite]
Please make sure the safe deposit box is set up so that you can access it after her death. It may need to be created as joint ownership? Check the language in the bank's rental contract. (Random Canadian bank example 1, 2).
[I went to my brother's New York bank to notify them when he passed, to prevent 'leaks' in his own checking/saving/etc. accounts and to close our shared safe deposit box. The desk clerks were busy with other customers, so I emptied that box during the wait. When I met with the rep, she told me I'd accidentally done it in the right order -- since one account owner was deceased, I would not have had access without court documents. Again, this was in the US, not Canada, so YMMV.]
2) The hoarding, and how "everyone including doctors think I'm exaggerating".
Videos, photographs.
posted by Iris Gambol at 12:22 PM on January 13, 2023 [1 favorite]
In UK every time an account is opened it shows on the credit report so if you are unable to convince her to write it down that maybe an option for you to have records/help her remember.
Sorry if inappropriate for your geography.
posted by eastboundanddown at 12:24 PM on January 13, 2023
Sorry if inappropriate for your geography.
posted by eastboundanddown at 12:24 PM on January 13, 2023
I went through a much more low key version of this, but without the benefit of the kind of package you are hoping to put together. A few thoughts in case it isn't possible to pull together all of that information ahead of events:
I agree that the first question is trying to learn if there is a will and if so, who is named as executor/trustee. In a perfect world the will would be in your possession or in the safety deposit box, or with a lawyer you know how to contact, but if not there are online guides for how to try to track down a will (link is to the Law Society in Ontario).
I found that it was possible to track down all the accounts with a mix of looking at recent tax returns, recent statements, and making some calls. (Unlike the regular customer service at banks, which can be terrible, in my experience the estate departments were super helpful and responsive.) It sounds like in your mother's case whomever is the executor is going to need to do some additional sleuthing, but this is actually a relatively finite task and can be accomplished with some time and effort.
It will take thousands of human hours to clear out her home, and be very very difficult to find paperwork.
This is unfortunately where there is a tradeoff between effort and results. Unless you have limitless time to spend on this, you just have to accept that some things are going to get missed. You do what you can, and when you hit diminishing returns or the limit of your capacity, you hire a cleanout service and they take care of the rest.
posted by Dip Flash at 5:40 PM on January 13, 2023
I agree that the first question is trying to learn if there is a will and if so, who is named as executor/trustee. In a perfect world the will would be in your possession or in the safety deposit box, or with a lawyer you know how to contact, but if not there are online guides for how to try to track down a will (link is to the Law Society in Ontario).
I found that it was possible to track down all the accounts with a mix of looking at recent tax returns, recent statements, and making some calls. (Unlike the regular customer service at banks, which can be terrible, in my experience the estate departments were super helpful and responsive.) It sounds like in your mother's case whomever is the executor is going to need to do some additional sleuthing, but this is actually a relatively finite task and can be accomplished with some time and effort.
It will take thousands of human hours to clear out her home, and be very very difficult to find paperwork.
This is unfortunately where there is a tradeoff between effort and results. Unless you have limitless time to spend on this, you just have to accept that some things are going to get missed. You do what you can, and when you hit diminishing returns or the limit of your capacity, you hire a cleanout service and they take care of the rest.
posted by Dip Flash at 5:40 PM on January 13, 2023
Clearly, start with what information you can get out of her at the moment, pursue all access to accounts, safe deposit boxes etc you can get.
But also do some soul searching about priorities and scenarios. If her health is in decline there will be a point where she may need to go into hospital/care/hospice. That changes your ability to screen all mail for example. Mail will also continue to come to her house after she passes. This will include bank and investment statements. Her home ownership should be recorded in the jurisdictional equivalent of the land registry. Even if the deeds can’t be found there are ways to deal with that.
Are there any heirlooms/personal items you really would treasure? If not I’d give very serious consideration to fully outsourcing house clearance when the time comes. A service can do the job in a day or two. Between tax records, mail, public records the bulk of her assets will be identifiable without sifting through all the clutter. Is she prone to keeping lots of cash in the house? That could be a concern but you can also pay people to search for things. That’d make it a lot more expensive and would take longer but you still don’t have to do this yourself.
But really do some soul searching now - you don’t mention personal items or heirlooms at all. So how much misery are you willing to go through to find the last ‘asset’ in the clutter. If you can get to a point where making a ‘reasonable effort’ is ok, this will greatly reduce your stress and anxiety about this.
posted by koahiatamadl at 8:50 PM on January 13, 2023
But also do some soul searching about priorities and scenarios. If her health is in decline there will be a point where she may need to go into hospital/care/hospice. That changes your ability to screen all mail for example. Mail will also continue to come to her house after she passes. This will include bank and investment statements. Her home ownership should be recorded in the jurisdictional equivalent of the land registry. Even if the deeds can’t be found there are ways to deal with that.
Are there any heirlooms/personal items you really would treasure? If not I’d give very serious consideration to fully outsourcing house clearance when the time comes. A service can do the job in a day or two. Between tax records, mail, public records the bulk of her assets will be identifiable without sifting through all the clutter. Is she prone to keeping lots of cash in the house? That could be a concern but you can also pay people to search for things. That’d make it a lot more expensive and would take longer but you still don’t have to do this yourself.
But really do some soul searching now - you don’t mention personal items or heirlooms at all. So how much misery are you willing to go through to find the last ‘asset’ in the clutter. If you can get to a point where making a ‘reasonable effort’ is ok, this will greatly reduce your stress and anxiety about this.
posted by koahiatamadl at 8:50 PM on January 13, 2023
I suggest getting some video of her home, quietly - even just where she sleeps, kitchen, bathroom - if there is difficulty with getting others to believe her. Just in case for the scenario where she gets admitted to hospital with a broken leg and tells the social worker oh, yes, she's fine to go home.
posted by quercus23 at 1:35 AM on January 14, 2023
posted by quercus23 at 1:35 AM on January 14, 2023
My dad was similarly mistrustful and wary of discussing arrangements. Can you start by getting medical power of attorney? I found that it was easier to convince my dad to appoint my sibling and I to be his medical decision makers. Once we had that, then we started working on the general power of attorney and access to finances. You may also have an easier route to this through your disabled relative's power of attorney. If you can start these discussions as being about how to ensure the best continuity of care for your relative, that could be a kind of trojan horse for following up with other arrangements like the will and account information.
I third the suggestion to talk to an estate lawyer. This was very helpful to us, and I took my dad along to the in-person meetings with our estate attorney so that he felt in control of the actions taken.
You have my sympathies for the hoarding. We had a similar experience with my grandmother, and it is a lot of work. But if you have at least the main documents accounted for (will, house title, insurance and main bank account) the "mess" can be treated as a separate problem and you can pay someone to help with that.
posted by amusebuche at 4:12 PM on January 14, 2023
I third the suggestion to talk to an estate lawyer. This was very helpful to us, and I took my dad along to the in-person meetings with our estate attorney so that he felt in control of the actions taken.
You have my sympathies for the hoarding. We had a similar experience with my grandmother, and it is a lot of work. But if you have at least the main documents accounted for (will, house title, insurance and main bank account) the "mess" can be treated as a separate problem and you can pay someone to help with that.
posted by amusebuche at 4:12 PM on January 14, 2023
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posted by box at 9:58 AM on January 13, 2023