(Humanities) PhD horror stories
October 4, 2022 3:46 PM Subscribe
My master’s dissertation was a mix of history and literature. I would love to do a PhD but I also know how rubbish the job market is in the UK. Having said this, a lot of people I know are in PhD programmes and/or starting their PhDs soon - so I can’t quite shake off the feeling that I should do a PhD at some point. Scare me so I can move on.
I am in my early 30s. I love learning for the sake of it. I have a recently started a new masters programme that ties in with my previous MA in history. I also work part time in a field tangentially related to my area of study. I know that embarking on a PhD after this MA is a waste of time and money in many ways because there is very little chance of ending up in academia - but my topic is pretty niche and requires knowledge of rare languages (that I am currently studying) so I do feel like I have something unique to offer. Convince me that a PhD is a bad idea.
I am in my early 30s. I love learning for the sake of it. I have a recently started a new masters programme that ties in with my previous MA in history. I also work part time in a field tangentially related to my area of study. I know that embarking on a PhD after this MA is a waste of time and money in many ways because there is very little chance of ending up in academia - but my topic is pretty niche and requires knowledge of rare languages (that I am currently studying) so I do feel like I have something unique to offer. Convince me that a PhD is a bad idea.
I was in a top 3 university for my field in the UK, joined the PhD programme for very similar reasons to you along with 20 or so other successful and keen young people. I saw two more cohorts enrol while I was there, all amazing candidates.
I quit after 2 and a bit years with my mental health absolutely in the gutter. I reckon I know 5 or 10 of the 60 or so PhD students in that department who didn't have mental health issues. Everyone else struggled, some severely.
I got a job in the civil service a few months after quitting and was promoted several times over the following years while all my friends who completed their PhDs spent that same time going through a series of 6-12 month temporary positions on shit pay. That includes people who won national awards for their dissertations. Some of them still haven't got permanent positions, 8 years later.
Lock these feelings up in a box, seal that box in concrete and dump it in the ocean.
(The only way I'd even think of saying anything else is if you have completely settled on a topic, that topic is very small and you've discussed it in detail with a supervisor (and got a second opinion), have full funding with a stipend and have already planned out exactly what you're going to do and write for 3 years. This is *not* a voyage of intellectual discovery.)
posted by knapah at 4:17 PM on October 4, 2022 [22 favorites]
I quit after 2 and a bit years with my mental health absolutely in the gutter. I reckon I know 5 or 10 of the 60 or so PhD students in that department who didn't have mental health issues. Everyone else struggled, some severely.
I got a job in the civil service a few months after quitting and was promoted several times over the following years while all my friends who completed their PhDs spent that same time going through a series of 6-12 month temporary positions on shit pay. That includes people who won national awards for their dissertations. Some of them still haven't got permanent positions, 8 years later.
Lock these feelings up in a box, seal that box in concrete and dump it in the ocean.
(The only way I'd even think of saying anything else is if you have completely settled on a topic, that topic is very small and you've discussed it in detail with a supervisor (and got a second opinion), have full funding with a stipend and have already planned out exactly what you're going to do and write for 3 years. This is *not* a voyage of intellectual discovery.)
posted by knapah at 4:17 PM on October 4, 2022 [22 favorites]
Bret Devereaux's post on the subject is suitably scary. US-centric but much likely applies to the UK.
posted by brainwane at 4:17 PM on October 4, 2022 [4 favorites]
posted by brainwane at 4:17 PM on October 4, 2022 [4 favorites]
I love learning for the sake of it.Mate, you want a library card, not a PhD. You don't need a doctorate to learn, a doctorate is a specific qualification for academic research in the unique context of the university (and to a lesser extent, in the sciences, in research institutes and firms).
I began but didn't finish a doctorate in history; it started as an interesting research area but it became a sprawling unfocused research mess that was unfinishable almost by definition. In retrospect it was really doomed from the go, and could not ever have become a viable project—but also, there's no way I could really have known it at the start. I got four years in before, out of sheer luck, was offered another non-academic job, and I got out of the university system, with the enthusiasm of a skydiver pulling the cord.
I don't regret all of it, and I learned a great deal (mostly about myself) and developed a lot of useful skills (mostly about teaching, and unrelated to research), but it absolutely affected my mental and physical health and set me well back, in terms of career, compared to all of my contemporaries.
posted by Fiasco da Gama at 4:30 PM on October 4, 2022 [40 favorites]
I began but didn't finish a doctorate in history; it started as an interesting research area but it became a sprawling unfocused research mess that was unfinishable almost by definition. In retrospect it was really doomed from the go, and could not ever have become a viable project—but also, there's no way I could really have known it at the start
Sounds remarkably like my experience as well.
--
I don't normally like going back through old posts, bigyellowtaxi, but I do see that you once posted about having trouble following through with courses that you sign up to and often felt like you weren't doing enough on those that you did sign up for. Imagine that feeling but with a PhD programme. Honestly, it's hell disguised as a comforting continuation of the undergrad->Master's pipeline.
posted by knapah at 4:34 PM on October 4, 2022 [9 favorites]
Sounds remarkably like my experience as well.
--
I don't normally like going back through old posts, bigyellowtaxi, but I do see that you once posted about having trouble following through with courses that you sign up to and often felt like you weren't doing enough on those that you did sign up for. Imagine that feeling but with a PhD programme. Honestly, it's hell disguised as a comforting continuation of the undergrad->Master's pipeline.
posted by knapah at 4:34 PM on October 4, 2022 [9 favorites]
Further, here's me previously, telling people about my experience.
posted by Fiasco da Gama at 4:51 PM on October 4, 2022 [3 favorites]
posted by Fiasco da Gama at 4:51 PM on October 4, 2022 [3 favorites]
Keep in mind that you can learn, study, research, and share knowledge WITHOUT the PhD, too.
posted by stormyteal at 4:55 PM on October 4, 2022 [10 favorites]
posted by stormyteal at 4:55 PM on October 4, 2022 [10 favorites]
Best answer: I'm not going to convince you not to get a PhD but I will tell you about my life with a MA, sans PhD, which felt like a disappointment for a long time but now feels quite liberating. I mean, it'd be cool to do eventually but I am enjoying life too much now to give things up. I'm in the US so it's a bit different but here we go:
I read 100 books a year (the library card advice is true!!), have learned four languages, matriculated at a university abroad on a sabbatical and continue to take online classes at night, write zines and do lots of art, spend too much time on MetaFilter (ha!), and have created this joyful intellectual world for myself. I travel so much! I frequently go to lectures and museums and embassy events -- I'm in Washington, D.C. -- and it's super fun. I'm a schoolteacher so education is part of my job; I had thought it'd be a stop along the way of a PhD but liked it so much I stayed. It's not perfect but lovely once I got established; the teamwork feel is awesome and connecting with students fun. Then I had an offer to do a PhD a few years ago and turned it down with no regrets. I get a lot of vacation time to do whatever, which is nice because my job can be stressful. (Whose isn't, right?) I earn a good salary (at least compared to most of my mellow Millennials in the Humanities) and am 15 years away from retirement (I'm lucky to be in a great US pension plan from before the Great Recession and things went to shit.)
My friends and family members of a similar age (30s and 40s) in academia are so smart and love learning/teaching. However, their job prospects are limited, pay much lower than mine, and stability just not there. I'm sad because they worked so hard and deserve everything I have and then more! If earning a PhD is your dream, then absolutely follow it. However, as much as you genuinely love learning, it sounds like you may be more into the idea of a PhD and comradery more than the degree itself (and the hard life after.) If you go for it, you can make a plan where you plan both an academic and a non-academic track and network as hard as you study and research. There are many great careers out there beyond what you're doing now and earning a PhD. I hope you can explore more of them before deciding.
posted by smorgasbord at 5:09 PM on October 4, 2022 [18 favorites]
I read 100 books a year (the library card advice is true!!), have learned four languages, matriculated at a university abroad on a sabbatical and continue to take online classes at night, write zines and do lots of art, spend too much time on MetaFilter (ha!), and have created this joyful intellectual world for myself. I travel so much! I frequently go to lectures and museums and embassy events -- I'm in Washington, D.C. -- and it's super fun. I'm a schoolteacher so education is part of my job; I had thought it'd be a stop along the way of a PhD but liked it so much I stayed. It's not perfect but lovely once I got established; the teamwork feel is awesome and connecting with students fun. Then I had an offer to do a PhD a few years ago and turned it down with no regrets. I get a lot of vacation time to do whatever, which is nice because my job can be stressful. (Whose isn't, right?) I earn a good salary (at least compared to most of my mellow Millennials in the Humanities) and am 15 years away from retirement (I'm lucky to be in a great US pension plan from before the Great Recession and things went to shit.)
My friends and family members of a similar age (30s and 40s) in academia are so smart and love learning/teaching. However, their job prospects are limited, pay much lower than mine, and stability just not there. I'm sad because they worked so hard and deserve everything I have and then more! If earning a PhD is your dream, then absolutely follow it. However, as much as you genuinely love learning, it sounds like you may be more into the idea of a PhD and comradery more than the degree itself (and the hard life after.) If you go for it, you can make a plan where you plan both an academic and a non-academic track and network as hard as you study and research. There are many great careers out there beyond what you're doing now and earning a PhD. I hope you can explore more of them before deciding.
posted by smorgasbord at 5:09 PM on October 4, 2022 [18 favorites]
I got as close as you can possibly get to a PhD without finishing (failed my defense and then quit). The MA stage was great, and I always enjoyed doing research, so I thought the dissertation phase would be enjoyable.
It was not. It was the most horrible 3 years of my life. When you're not in regular classes anymore, you will drop off the radar of everyone in your department. It's incredibly isolating. There is very little collaboration if you're lucky, and if you're unlucky your advisor will be pulling the strings of your topic and what you write. You have to pray that nothing goes wrong at any stage of the dissertation, that no one scoops you on your topic before you finish, and that your committee is actually involved and cares about your progress. You will work 12 hour days for very little money or recognition.
I was always anxious. I couldn't go to the grocery store without feeling like I should be working instead. I resented people around me who went to restaurants, parties, played video games, read for pleasure. My whole life was in front of my computer. Six years later I still sometimes have the feeling that I should be doing something I'm not, and guilt at any sort of leisure time.
Doing a PhD took me from a person who loved to learn the most esoteric stuff about my chosen field to a person who can barely stand to read academic writing anymore. If you have a lovely, supportive department full of great professors, it is still a merciless and penniless slog. And not only are most academic departments NOT full of lovely people, you can't know what will happen until you're in the thick of it. I loved all of the professors on my committee until they were on my committee. Many use the dissertation/defense as a kind of hazing ritual and ego show.
Don't do it. Run.
posted by petiteviolette at 5:47 PM on October 4, 2022 [14 favorites]
It was not. It was the most horrible 3 years of my life. When you're not in regular classes anymore, you will drop off the radar of everyone in your department. It's incredibly isolating. There is very little collaboration if you're lucky, and if you're unlucky your advisor will be pulling the strings of your topic and what you write. You have to pray that nothing goes wrong at any stage of the dissertation, that no one scoops you on your topic before you finish, and that your committee is actually involved and cares about your progress. You will work 12 hour days for very little money or recognition.
I was always anxious. I couldn't go to the grocery store without feeling like I should be working instead. I resented people around me who went to restaurants, parties, played video games, read for pleasure. My whole life was in front of my computer. Six years later I still sometimes have the feeling that I should be doing something I'm not, and guilt at any sort of leisure time.
Doing a PhD took me from a person who loved to learn the most esoteric stuff about my chosen field to a person who can barely stand to read academic writing anymore. If you have a lovely, supportive department full of great professors, it is still a merciless and penniless slog. And not only are most academic departments NOT full of lovely people, you can't know what will happen until you're in the thick of it. I loved all of the professors on my committee until they were on my committee. Many use the dissertation/defense as a kind of hazing ritual and ego show.
Don't do it. Run.
posted by petiteviolette at 5:47 PM on October 4, 2022 [14 favorites]
I did my STEM PhD in my mid-to-late 30s on a more-or-less self/work funded part-time whim with an advisor who left me alone to do my work and a very specific goal when I started. I finished, had a very successful defense, but even with the outcome not mattering (I decided that publishing papers wasn't worth the ego-pummeling, and had absolutely no interest in academia after dealing with my advisor--who was a shit mentor--and others in the department), I still hated everything that wasn't the research (I was, and still am, very proud of the research).
I ended up burning out at work about 2 years *after* I finished the PhD. I blamed it mostly on work and the pandemic, but I think the residual horribleness of the PhD experience dogged me more than I am probably admitting to myself at this very moment, sowing the seeds for 2+ years of burnout driven torpor.
Project yourself into the future: 5-6 years from now, you end up finishing and proud of your research -- you think you made it to the other side unscathed. Spoiler Alert: you didn't.
posted by chiefthe at 6:23 PM on October 4, 2022 [6 favorites]
I ended up burning out at work about 2 years *after* I finished the PhD. I blamed it mostly on work and the pandemic, but I think the residual horribleness of the PhD experience dogged me more than I am probably admitting to myself at this very moment, sowing the seeds for 2+ years of burnout driven torpor.
Project yourself into the future: 5-6 years from now, you end up finishing and proud of your research -- you think you made it to the other side unscathed. Spoiler Alert: you didn't.
posted by chiefthe at 6:23 PM on October 4, 2022 [6 favorites]
I just finished my defense a couple of months ago. In the scheme of doctoral programs, I think I had a relatively good experience - nice cohort, supportive advisor, and my topic mostly came together. I took longer and worked at the institution so that my program worked out to essentially free.
That said, I really couldn't give you an estimate of the number of nights I spent crying as I typed because I was so exhausted. The last night crying was when I had a breakdown after I finished my dissertation and then found out that two of my committee members would be traveling so I'd have to wait a month to defend. I was just so exhausted and the idea of having to keep what I'd been doing in my head for an extra two weeks was just too much.
The best part about being done: not feeling guilt every minute of free time that I have. Right now, you have all the time in the world, guilt-free.
posted by past unusual at 6:47 PM on October 4, 2022 [5 favorites]
That said, I really couldn't give you an estimate of the number of nights I spent crying as I typed because I was so exhausted. The last night crying was when I had a breakdown after I finished my dissertation and then found out that two of my committee members would be traveling so I'd have to wait a month to defend. I was just so exhausted and the idea of having to keep what I'd been doing in my head for an extra two weeks was just too much.
The best part about being done: not feeling guilt every minute of free time that I have. Right now, you have all the time in the world, guilt-free.
posted by past unusual at 6:47 PM on October 4, 2022 [5 favorites]
One of the worst things about facing the crappy job market as a PhD is that you’ve just spent a lot of years investing in something of a total culture. That is, for a lot of people, their field becomes the place all their important relationships are tied to and the source of their identity. I gather that that’s part of what makes the life appealing, when it works, but it also makes a tough go at the job market into something way more personal than you want it to be.
posted by eirias at 7:41 PM on October 4, 2022 [9 favorites]
posted by eirias at 7:41 PM on October 4, 2022 [9 favorites]
I quit ABD in a multidisciplinary media arts program (which isn't humanities, exactly, but had humanities elements), six years in. I should've quit two years in. I had a very antagonistic relationship with my advisor and my program, and eventually got to the point where I felt miserable 100% of the time, had no belief in the work I was being asked to do and no desire to finish the project they wanted, and no desire to live the kind of life my advisor and their colleagues lived. I eventually ended up on a brief course of antidepressants, which helped get me far enough out of my hole to realize that this was Not Good At All. I started looking for non-academic jobs, found one in another city, turned in my resignation from my teaching position, and left town. I don't think I formally withdrew, oops.
For what it's worth, I now work at a tech company. I recently referred a colleague who finished their degree in the same program for a job on my team. They and I had very similar post-grad trajectories, only they worked a year longer on a degree and finished; I have a year more retirement savings. I don't know for certain but I'm fairly certain they're joining at the same level of seniority I joined at.
I ragequit over nine years ago and in some ways I'm only within the past 3-4 years starting to get myself back again. I think there are parts of me that are just gone. It wasn't a great story.
I encourage you to think long and hard about why you want a Ph.D, and what having a Ph.D will allow you to do, that no other alternatives will allow you. You should discuss the answers to these questions with other people who have Ph.Ds and do not have any vested interest in convincing you to join (for example, this is not a conversation to have with your prospective advisor). If you can answer both those questions, then go for it. If you can't, then for gawdsake do something else, anything else.
posted by Alterscape at 7:55 PM on October 4, 2022 [5 favorites]
For what it's worth, I now work at a tech company. I recently referred a colleague who finished their degree in the same program for a job on my team. They and I had very similar post-grad trajectories, only they worked a year longer on a degree and finished; I have a year more retirement savings. I don't know for certain but I'm fairly certain they're joining at the same level of seniority I joined at.
I ragequit over nine years ago and in some ways I'm only within the past 3-4 years starting to get myself back again. I think there are parts of me that are just gone. It wasn't a great story.
I encourage you to think long and hard about why you want a Ph.D, and what having a Ph.D will allow you to do, that no other alternatives will allow you. You should discuss the answers to these questions with other people who have Ph.Ds and do not have any vested interest in convincing you to join (for example, this is not a conversation to have with your prospective advisor). If you can answer both those questions, then go for it. If you can't, then for gawdsake do something else, anything else.
posted by Alterscape at 7:55 PM on October 4, 2022 [5 favorites]
I will elaborate via private channels if you wish, but as a nearly-done phd I tell aspiring phd students the following. This applies in a social science context, and may be quite different from other settings where your doctoral research is more incorporated into a group research project. Different warnings no doubt apply there.
Warnings I give:
ONLY begin a PhD if you enjoy the experience of being in school so much that you are willing to sacrifice substantial lifetime earnings and retirement security.
If you have a family that can and does sometimes support you and can be expected to do so for what may be a ten year program or more, that's good. The financial package is nowhere near the cost of living, and taking three TA jobs at a time is a recipe for never finishing your research.
If you have family that relies on you for money sometimes, consider that a small point against. You will never have excess cash. You will be on the phone begging the grad department to confirm your enrolment to the student loan office so you have the money to pay tuition and be considered registered.
Accept that you can be 100% smart enough, have an idea that is more than good enough, put in more than the required work, and still fail for reasons beyond your control. As a late stage phd student you depend entirely on the goodwill of your supervisor. If they discontinue that relationship for any reason, you are almost certainly sunk with no recourse through the department or finding someone else. There is a non-trivial chance that you will do everything right and still not end up with a degree.
And finding a job after is a whole separate nightmare. Be prepared to devote major effort to cultivating relationships in your field if you want the slightest shot of teaching in it. I have seen the CVs of job applicants and they have pages and pages of co-authored articles and book chapters.
posted by sindark at 8:10 PM on October 4, 2022 [8 favorites]
Warnings I give:
ONLY begin a PhD if you enjoy the experience of being in school so much that you are willing to sacrifice substantial lifetime earnings and retirement security.
If you have a family that can and does sometimes support you and can be expected to do so for what may be a ten year program or more, that's good. The financial package is nowhere near the cost of living, and taking three TA jobs at a time is a recipe for never finishing your research.
If you have family that relies on you for money sometimes, consider that a small point against. You will never have excess cash. You will be on the phone begging the grad department to confirm your enrolment to the student loan office so you have the money to pay tuition and be considered registered.
Accept that you can be 100% smart enough, have an idea that is more than good enough, put in more than the required work, and still fail for reasons beyond your control. As a late stage phd student you depend entirely on the goodwill of your supervisor. If they discontinue that relationship for any reason, you are almost certainly sunk with no recourse through the department or finding someone else. There is a non-trivial chance that you will do everything right and still not end up with a degree.
And finding a job after is a whole separate nightmare. Be prepared to devote major effort to cultivating relationships in your field if you want the slightest shot of teaching in it. I have seen the CVs of job applicants and they have pages and pages of co-authored articles and book chapters.
posted by sindark at 8:10 PM on October 4, 2022 [8 favorites]
Among things I should have read before I started:
posted by sindark at 9:07 PM on October 4, 2022 [7 favorites]
- Bret Devereaux. "So You Want To Go To Grad School (in the Academic Humanities)?"
- Estelle Phillips and Derek. S. Pugh. "How to Get a PhD: a handbook for students and their supervisors." Open University Press, 2010.
- Philip Guo. "The PhD Grind."
posted by sindark at 9:07 PM on October 4, 2022 [7 favorites]
From Devereaux:
posted by sindark at 9:15 PM on October 4, 2022 [7 favorites]
A major part of the challenge here is that you need to be taking actions on, say, Day 14 of your research project which you will turn into a written chapter on Day 718 which will finally become part of a completed book on Day 1,800. Self-motivation and the ability to break big tasks down into smaller, manageable tasks are necessary skills here. A lot of graduate students founder at this stage because while they were very intelligent and driven in conditions where someone else was setting clear goals and timetables (as in a classroom environment), the task of organizing and then self-motivating a massive project like this proved very difficult.This is a point that can hardly be overstated. No post-secondary education other than a PhD is much like one when it comes to how structured other people will make your life, and how involved they will be in you meeting your milestones and deadlines or not. Unless you have or think you can cultivate an exceptional capacity of self-organization, self-motivation, and discipline than you need to remember that the amount of outside involvement from your department late in the process can be minimal, and takes the form mostly of them wanting to hurry you out with nothing rather than keep dragging, withdrawing funding, and making it harder every year after the absurd program target of 5 to justify why they should let you keep paying tuition.
posted by sindark at 9:15 PM on October 4, 2022 [7 favorites]
Most people shy from discussing personal finances, but @sindark's point about family support (in both directions) is absolutely vital. If you are lucky enough to have a decent financial cushion, then perhaps this is a challenge to test yourself against. If not... here is the story of someone who aced the academics and still couldn't manage: Death of an Adjunct.
*Not to say that graduate work is reserved for the wealthy, but in this particular game, many play on god mode while others are on hard mode.
posted by dum spiro spero at 9:50 PM on October 4, 2022 [6 favorites]
*Not to say that graduate work is reserved for the wealthy, but in this particular game, many play on god mode while others are on hard mode.
posted by dum spiro spero at 9:50 PM on October 4, 2022 [6 favorites]
Please don’t do it. Or at least carefully consider why and what you’ll experience. But what I really mean is PLEASE FOR ALL THAT IS HOLY, DO NOT DO IT. I loved my masters program, but a PhD is another beast. I barely survived my PhD and regret it almost every day.
It wasn’t one horrible instance. It was death by a thousand cuts. It was the constant and persistent attacks on my self esteem. It was missing out on for-profit work that could have made big sustainable impacts on my career. It was working for pittance barely able to afford necessities. It was the load of debt that seemed small but grew and grew. It was the sexism. It was the racism. It was seeing how many grad students had substance use disorders. It was seeing a full blown psychotic break in the middle of a class (btw… prof didn’t know what to do and wouldn’t do anything so a small number of us grad students walked to mental health services and called for help). It was realizing that crying every day wasn’t worth it. It was being told that my “personality was shiny… but my work needed to be better.” It was waking up to my bathroom painted in puke because I’d had another bad day with no support and bought a couple of bottles of wine to deal with it.
I enjoyed the academic pursuit of it. I enjoyed chatting with colleagues in class. I enjoyed teaching. But it wasn’t worth the constant abuse. It wasn’t worth the lack of support. It wasn’t worth the extraordinary competition for a tenure track position. It wasn’t worth the instability. It wasn’t worth the pause in my life when I could have been making other choices. I left with $100,000 in student loans. I’m still paying them off even though I have a very successful career now in the for-profit world.
My friends and I have plotted creating a literal agency that’s entire purpose is to talk people out of grad school (some caveats included). I’m still interested in that because I’m that passionate about what a terrible choice it is for so many people.
I only found a for-profit job after by taking my PhD off my resume. I cringe every time anyone jokingly calls me Doctor even though I have a PhD in English Lit.
posted by AF-McGee at 11:15 PM on October 4, 2022 [8 favorites]
It wasn’t one horrible instance. It was death by a thousand cuts. It was the constant and persistent attacks on my self esteem. It was missing out on for-profit work that could have made big sustainable impacts on my career. It was working for pittance barely able to afford necessities. It was the load of debt that seemed small but grew and grew. It was the sexism. It was the racism. It was seeing how many grad students had substance use disorders. It was seeing a full blown psychotic break in the middle of a class (btw… prof didn’t know what to do and wouldn’t do anything so a small number of us grad students walked to mental health services and called for help). It was realizing that crying every day wasn’t worth it. It was being told that my “personality was shiny… but my work needed to be better.” It was waking up to my bathroom painted in puke because I’d had another bad day with no support and bought a couple of bottles of wine to deal with it.
I enjoyed the academic pursuit of it. I enjoyed chatting with colleagues in class. I enjoyed teaching. But it wasn’t worth the constant abuse. It wasn’t worth the lack of support. It wasn’t worth the extraordinary competition for a tenure track position. It wasn’t worth the instability. It wasn’t worth the pause in my life when I could have been making other choices. I left with $100,000 in student loans. I’m still paying them off even though I have a very successful career now in the for-profit world.
My friends and I have plotted creating a literal agency that’s entire purpose is to talk people out of grad school (some caveats included). I’m still interested in that because I’m that passionate about what a terrible choice it is for so many people.
I only found a for-profit job after by taking my PhD off my resume. I cringe every time anyone jokingly calls me Doctor even though I have a PhD in English Lit.
posted by AF-McGee at 11:15 PM on October 4, 2022 [8 favorites]
Everyone I know who’s on year 3+ of a PhD program is astonishingly depressed. Worse, they’re not even aware of how depressed they are because they only interact with other PhD students.
I did a masters degree. It was fun, but also tough on my mental health. I thank my lucky stars every day that I decided not to continue on to a PhD.
You don’t need to enroll in a PhD program to learn — incorporate learning into your everyday life.
posted by mekily at 4:13 AM on October 5, 2022 [3 favorites]
I did a masters degree. It was fun, but also tough on my mental health. I thank my lucky stars every day that I decided not to continue on to a PhD.
You don’t need to enroll in a PhD program to learn — incorporate learning into your everyday life.
posted by mekily at 4:13 AM on October 5, 2022 [3 favorites]
Best answer: Do you want to be a lecturer? Are there any jobs in your field of interest? Do you enjoy teaching undergradutes, supervising MA and PhD research students, and endlessly hustling for grants. Do you think you would enjoy that more than any other possible job? If so, then maybe a PhD is for you. But you need to get it done and get out, making your real focus ruthlessly maximising your job chances not learning for the sake of it.
If that's not 100% appealing, then sure do a PhD. In 20-25 years time. You will find someone willing to take you on as a research student. You will do interesting work that contributes to human knowledge. You won't make a career out of it, but you might be able to maintain a professional affiliation that allows you access to the library. I've known two people do social science/humanities PhDs in this way, and they seem much more fulfilled by it than others. Their self worth is much less tied up in the PhD.
posted by plonkee at 5:20 AM on October 5, 2022 [5 favorites]
If that's not 100% appealing, then sure do a PhD. In 20-25 years time. You will find someone willing to take you on as a research student. You will do interesting work that contributes to human knowledge. You won't make a career out of it, but you might be able to maintain a professional affiliation that allows you access to the library. I've known two people do social science/humanities PhDs in this way, and they seem much more fulfilled by it than others. Their self worth is much less tied up in the PhD.
posted by plonkee at 5:20 AM on October 5, 2022 [5 favorites]
I know that embarking on a PhD after this MA is a waste of time and money in many ways because there is very little chance of ending up in academia - but my topic is pretty niche and requires knowledge of rare languages (that I am currently studying) so I do feel like I have something unique to offer.
At least in the US, a niche topic means that there will be maybe one or two jobs open a year in that niche -- in some years, unless someone dies or retires, there would be none. And, even lots of people who graduated from a top-ranked program with a well-connected advisor and who have lots of publications, prestigious fellowships, and conference presentations fail to get tenure track jobs every year, and frankly most grad students are not in that category.
Meaning, that while it isn't impossible for you to achieve your dream, it's important to understand how low those chances are, even after you make it through the grad school hurdle that others have described above.
I'm one of the many people here who didn't complete a PhD. In my case I had a supportive advisor and department, and plenty of funding, but I just sort of burned out on the total institution part of things. I was tired of feeling the pressure to be working all the time, tired of the repeated process of submitting things for other people to critique, tired of feeling stuck in an in-between place. And, I looked at all the junior professors I knew and decided I didn't want that life. Someday I would like to go back and finish, just out of a sense of completion -- when I was in grad school, there were a couple of people of early-retirement age who were returning after decades away to complete their degrees, and that seems like a nice option to me, assuming the department would be willing to accept me back at that point.
At the end of the day, do what is in your heart, but for all that is holy please don't start a PhD unless it comes with guaranteed full funding and/or you have family money or a very supportive employed partner to take on that financial load without stress.
posted by Dip Flash at 6:51 AM on October 5, 2022 [6 favorites]
At least in the US, a niche topic means that there will be maybe one or two jobs open a year in that niche -- in some years, unless someone dies or retires, there would be none. And, even lots of people who graduated from a top-ranked program with a well-connected advisor and who have lots of publications, prestigious fellowships, and conference presentations fail to get tenure track jobs every year, and frankly most grad students are not in that category.
Meaning, that while it isn't impossible for you to achieve your dream, it's important to understand how low those chances are, even after you make it through the grad school hurdle that others have described above.
I'm one of the many people here who didn't complete a PhD. In my case I had a supportive advisor and department, and plenty of funding, but I just sort of burned out on the total institution part of things. I was tired of feeling the pressure to be working all the time, tired of the repeated process of submitting things for other people to critique, tired of feeling stuck in an in-between place. And, I looked at all the junior professors I knew and decided I didn't want that life. Someday I would like to go back and finish, just out of a sense of completion -- when I was in grad school, there were a couple of people of early-retirement age who were returning after decades away to complete their degrees, and that seems like a nice option to me, assuming the department would be willing to accept me back at that point.
At the end of the day, do what is in your heart, but for all that is holy please don't start a PhD unless it comes with guaranteed full funding and/or you have family money or a very supportive employed partner to take on that financial load without stress.
posted by Dip Flash at 6:51 AM on October 5, 2022 [6 favorites]
Best answer: A few more things to add to everyone's beautiful, painful, loving advice above.
I remember your past posts about being a bit unhappy in life despite having it good. You seem like a really cool person, and I totally get that feeling! It appears that you're really happy with your partner? That's awesome! Obviously, having a happy relationship is not the be-all, end-all but I can tell you that doing a PhD can make dating much harder and being in a relationship with someone doing a PhD is hard. I've been seeing someone who's doing his post-doc in a lucrative STEM field so he'll have lots of great job opportunities all over the world, quite frankly. But I want to stay where I am, and I know that would be limiting for him and neither of us wants to hold each other back. He spends like 12 hours a day sitting in front of his computer doing what he loves, which is cool, but also means he has no additional time for other things he loves beyond eating and fitness. He's always applying for stuff and planning a conference and frankly a bit jealous of my chill life. He is this brilliant foreign scientist yet he's treated like a second-class citizen on campus when it comes to teaching assignments, be it classes or class locations. Some people can balance it all but he just doesn't have the emotional bandwidth for more than a couple dates a month to say nothing of the limited funds. Which is too bad because he's such a delightful person!! And this is STEM! What I'm saying is that sometimes we have to prioritize things and that can often mean career versus relationship. I have always prioritized my career, in part due to not having a relationship worth prioritizing, but at a certain point I realize I limited myself. I have family members who both have a PhD in the same field: their relationship is very strong but they'll always have employment but never both have equally good careers.
I think of the financial element: even with a fully-funded PhD program, I'd have had to move in with my parents in my early 30s and commute from the suburbs every day, still struggling to have money for anything beyond metro fees and lunch. My parents are kind but surely would have eventually gotten annoyed that their adult daughter had become so dependent on them. I am lucky to have had this opportunity in terms of the degree and the place to live but I'd rather have the freedom and maintain a good relationship with my family.
Another important point that people have made: the pressure from classmates and advisors is REAL. I know I had people tell me point blank that I was so much better than "just" a public schoolteacher, that basically the only road to intellectual fulfillment was a PhD. OK, that's only partially true: my peers who did PhDs actually thought being a teacher sounded cool but non-academics and tenure-track academics thought the doctorate was the only way to go. Again, I get it and have so much respect BUT it's such a myopic view. That said, a professor friend of mine shared about a foreign doctoral student of hers whose biggest dream was to get a PhD and had everyone telling her it was impossible and to give up. That's not cool either! But you came here looking for unbiased advice or at least advice biased in your wellbeing and I'm so glad you've gotten that.
I fully support the advice above to get a PhD later in life. That's something I am considering and it's fun to look forward to! OK I'm also thinking about getting a BS in civil engineering! Or learning more languages! The cool thing is that I have the freedom to do this all because I'm not locked into anything. Can you give yourself a deadline of say 2-3 years of life after you finish your current MA to revisit this? I know it would mean closing some doors and it would also mean opening other ones. And there are countries beyond the UK where you could get a funded PhD, not saying you want that but there are so many possibilities and I'm excited for you!
posted by smorgasbord at 6:55 AM on October 5, 2022 [5 favorites]
I remember your past posts about being a bit unhappy in life despite having it good. You seem like a really cool person, and I totally get that feeling! It appears that you're really happy with your partner? That's awesome! Obviously, having a happy relationship is not the be-all, end-all but I can tell you that doing a PhD can make dating much harder and being in a relationship with someone doing a PhD is hard. I've been seeing someone who's doing his post-doc in a lucrative STEM field so he'll have lots of great job opportunities all over the world, quite frankly. But I want to stay where I am, and I know that would be limiting for him and neither of us wants to hold each other back. He spends like 12 hours a day sitting in front of his computer doing what he loves, which is cool, but also means he has no additional time for other things he loves beyond eating and fitness. He's always applying for stuff and planning a conference and frankly a bit jealous of my chill life. He is this brilliant foreign scientist yet he's treated like a second-class citizen on campus when it comes to teaching assignments, be it classes or class locations. Some people can balance it all but he just doesn't have the emotional bandwidth for more than a couple dates a month to say nothing of the limited funds. Which is too bad because he's such a delightful person!! And this is STEM! What I'm saying is that sometimes we have to prioritize things and that can often mean career versus relationship. I have always prioritized my career, in part due to not having a relationship worth prioritizing, but at a certain point I realize I limited myself. I have family members who both have a PhD in the same field: their relationship is very strong but they'll always have employment but never both have equally good careers.
I think of the financial element: even with a fully-funded PhD program, I'd have had to move in with my parents in my early 30s and commute from the suburbs every day, still struggling to have money for anything beyond metro fees and lunch. My parents are kind but surely would have eventually gotten annoyed that their adult daughter had become so dependent on them. I am lucky to have had this opportunity in terms of the degree and the place to live but I'd rather have the freedom and maintain a good relationship with my family.
Another important point that people have made: the pressure from classmates and advisors is REAL. I know I had people tell me point blank that I was so much better than "just" a public schoolteacher, that basically the only road to intellectual fulfillment was a PhD. OK, that's only partially true: my peers who did PhDs actually thought being a teacher sounded cool but non-academics and tenure-track academics thought the doctorate was the only way to go. Again, I get it and have so much respect BUT it's such a myopic view. That said, a professor friend of mine shared about a foreign doctoral student of hers whose biggest dream was to get a PhD and had everyone telling her it was impossible and to give up. That's not cool either! But you came here looking for unbiased advice or at least advice biased in your wellbeing and I'm so glad you've gotten that.
I fully support the advice above to get a PhD later in life. That's something I am considering and it's fun to look forward to! OK I'm also thinking about getting a BS in civil engineering! Or learning more languages! The cool thing is that I have the freedom to do this all because I'm not locked into anything. Can you give yourself a deadline of say 2-3 years of life after you finish your current MA to revisit this? I know it would mean closing some doors and it would also mean opening other ones. And there are countries beyond the UK where you could get a funded PhD, not saying you want that but there are so many possibilities and I'm excited for you!
posted by smorgasbord at 6:55 AM on October 5, 2022 [5 favorites]
I finished my MA in 2008 and my phd this past spring. I was happy with the MA for a long time. I earned the PhD specifically so I can apply to administrative jobs that want a PhD in something, anything, you just have to be tenurable.
If you don't have a specific, concrete goal at the end of the PhD, I wouldn't do it. The couple of folks in my cohort that were doing it for personal enrichment really struggled with motivation (we all did, but they struggled more). I got through on spite and sobriety.
posted by joycehealy at 7:14 AM on October 5, 2022 [3 favorites]
If you don't have a specific, concrete goal at the end of the PhD, I wouldn't do it. The couple of folks in my cohort that were doing it for personal enrichment really struggled with motivation (we all did, but they struggled more). I got through on spite and sobriety.
posted by joycehealy at 7:14 AM on October 5, 2022 [3 favorites]
Response by poster: Thank you for these super helpful responses. I definitely teared up reading all your stories and advice. I am pretty convinced now that a Phd is definitely not for me any time soon. I also agree completely that I do not need to do a PhD to keep learning. A close friend of mine has a desk-based engineering job and they are always attending art history/architecture tours and various related courses at universities (online and in person). I find that absolutely inspirational (or "goals" as kids today would say). The mental health aspect also worries me considerably. Just the other day I heard that a friend hadn't left their flat in weeks because they were stressed about an upcoming review. Another friend of mine at a PhD programme in the US has developed insomnia and disordered eating habits. The difference between my PhD and non-PhD friends is so stark, it is actually scary.
These are all best answers but I have marked those that help me figure out how to navigate a life beyond the whole "I want to do a Phd" madness that I have been stuck in for the last couple of years. My partner and I are considering moving back to their home country in Europe at some point in the next 5-10 years. All university education is free in their country. For now, I will focus on my work, the MA programme that I have just started, and language courses. I really enjoy research and writing but I don't actually need to be enrolled in a PhD programme to do that.
Fiasco da Gama, this is excellent advice, thank you: You don't need a doctorate to learn, a doctorate is a specific qualification for academic research in the unique context of the university (and to a lesser extent, in the sciences, in research institutes and firms).
posted by bigyellowtaxi at 7:38 AM on October 5, 2022 [6 favorites]
These are all best answers but I have marked those that help me figure out how to navigate a life beyond the whole "I want to do a Phd" madness that I have been stuck in for the last couple of years. My partner and I are considering moving back to their home country in Europe at some point in the next 5-10 years. All university education is free in their country. For now, I will focus on my work, the MA programme that I have just started, and language courses. I really enjoy research and writing but I don't actually need to be enrolled in a PhD programme to do that.
Fiasco da Gama, this is excellent advice, thank you: You don't need a doctorate to learn, a doctorate is a specific qualification for academic research in the unique context of the university (and to a lesser extent, in the sciences, in research institutes and firms).
posted by bigyellowtaxi at 7:38 AM on October 5, 2022 [6 favorites]
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