Inappropriate Fiction
September 27, 2021 11:32 AM
I have a very smart, talented academic for a father-in-law, who has overcome a lot of trauma over the course of his life. To cope with the latest tragedy to befall him, he's been working on a novel. He's also been enjoying spending time with his granddaughters, who are around the age of 10. He shared his novel with me and other people. It contains some sexual content that I find very disturbing.
The story is speculative -- self-referential and narratively playful, moving between different time periods and between characters. There is not a whole lot of certainty about the reality, the humanity, or the boundaries of each characters. But the two main characters are both girls about the age of 10, and one (a fairy tale character) is described in highly sexualized detail (she's describing herself, or what she wants to look like) and it is mentioned multiple times that she and her best friend (another female) give each other orgasms. There is also a graphic-ish rape scene with a female succubus. Or something. It is not the entire point of the writing -- I can't really say what is. There are lessons about sexual oppression being bad, homophobia being bad, which I am all for. But I am disturbed at this content and am questioning this man's relationship with my kids. No other evidence suggests anything is wrong with this man, beyond being very quirky and historically troubled in other (non-sexual) areas. Am I overreacting? How the hell do I react here? I know it's up to me to make a judgement, but given the information I've given you, what would you do?
The story is speculative -- self-referential and narratively playful, moving between different time periods and between characters. There is not a whole lot of certainty about the reality, the humanity, or the boundaries of each characters. But the two main characters are both girls about the age of 10, and one (a fairy tale character) is described in highly sexualized detail (she's describing herself, or what she wants to look like) and it is mentioned multiple times that she and her best friend (another female) give each other orgasms. There is also a graphic-ish rape scene with a female succubus. Or something. It is not the entire point of the writing -- I can't really say what is. There are lessons about sexual oppression being bad, homophobia being bad, which I am all for. But I am disturbed at this content and am questioning this man's relationship with my kids. No other evidence suggests anything is wrong with this man, beyond being very quirky and historically troubled in other (non-sexual) areas. Am I overreacting? How the hell do I react here? I know it's up to me to make a judgement, but given the information I've given you, what would you do?
Since it's your father in law as long as your partner who is his son/daughter is around it's actually up to them to make the judgment & for you to agree or come to an agreement together. Is their son or daughter in the picture?
Personally I do feel that this is pretty weird & I would try not to leave him in the room with the kids alone & make sure they're up to date on good touch/bad touch, no secrets with grownups, & that stuff.
posted by bleep at 11:39 AM on September 27, 2021
Personally I do feel that this is pretty weird & I would try not to leave him in the room with the kids alone & make sure they're up to date on good touch/bad touch, no secrets with grownups, & that stuff.
posted by bleep at 11:39 AM on September 27, 2021
As a writing person with sometimes dark Fantasies I understand that what's on paper needn't have any bearing on my actual relationships. It's just the weird creative stuff in my head.
As a parent, I would be creeped out just like you.
I'm sorry, that was not very helpful.
posted by Omnomnom at 11:46 AM on September 27, 2021
As a parent, I would be creeped out just like you.
I'm sorry, that was not very helpful.
posted by Omnomnom at 11:46 AM on September 27, 2021
Your need to get his son or daughter on board to be able to enforce this, but I would not ever leave a child alone with someone who has expressed fantasies like that. I wouldn't discuss it with him either. I would just adjust boundaries as needed to protect the children.
It is possible that these are just fantasies that he would never act on, but you have no way of knowing that; even having a conversation with him about it frankly isn't going to answer the question of where these fantasies come from and whether or not he is capable of doing anything about them in real life. Whatever he says, you will still be unsettled. It could be he is working something out from his own childhood, who knows, but it's also strange that he would share it with other people - especially family members who are parents - as opposed to say a therapist or a support group or even an online group for fiction writers where he can maintain anonymity or something.
Don't leave your kids alone with him ever.
Even if he has no intention of acting on the fantasies, children can tell on some level when they're getting unwanted sexual attention, even if it's just a question of nonverbal cues. and that is a form of trauma as well. Most women can tell you stories about this - the lingering stares, seemingly innocuous comments about clothing or peer relationships, etc. For some of us this started around 11 or 12 and didn't stop until our wrinkles and gray hair came along. It's hard to say whether he will keep this stuff in his head or let it start to come out in subtle behavioral ways.
And help your kids become empowered to set boundaries about physical touch and conversations about sexual topics at an age-appropriate level, so they can heed their own instincts and protect themselves more effectively if there is ever a situation in the future. If you don't know how to do this, seeing a therapist for a handful of sessions may be a good place to start.
posted by zdravo at 11:55 AM on September 27, 2021
It is possible that these are just fantasies that he would never act on, but you have no way of knowing that; even having a conversation with him about it frankly isn't going to answer the question of where these fantasies come from and whether or not he is capable of doing anything about them in real life. Whatever he says, you will still be unsettled. It could be he is working something out from his own childhood, who knows, but it's also strange that he would share it with other people - especially family members who are parents - as opposed to say a therapist or a support group or even an online group for fiction writers where he can maintain anonymity or something.
Don't leave your kids alone with him ever.
Even if he has no intention of acting on the fantasies, children can tell on some level when they're getting unwanted sexual attention, even if it's just a question of nonverbal cues. and that is a form of trauma as well. Most women can tell you stories about this - the lingering stares, seemingly innocuous comments about clothing or peer relationships, etc. For some of us this started around 11 or 12 and didn't stop until our wrinkles and gray hair came along. It's hard to say whether he will keep this stuff in his head or let it start to come out in subtle behavioral ways.
And help your kids become empowered to set boundaries about physical touch and conversations about sexual topics at an age-appropriate level, so they can heed their own instincts and protect themselves more effectively if there is ever a situation in the future. If you don't know how to do this, seeing a therapist for a handful of sessions may be a good place to start.
posted by zdravo at 11:55 AM on September 27, 2021
As a parent, your priority should be the safety of your minor children, who are dependent on you and are at a very vulnerable age. Your priority is not the feelings of other adults.
posted by thesockpuppet at 12:03 PM on September 27, 2021
posted by thesockpuppet at 12:03 PM on September 27, 2021
Agreed--my priority is not the feelings of adults. My priority is trying to figure out whether a threat exists and how to deal with it.
posted by theefixedstars at 12:07 PM on September 27, 2021
posted by theefixedstars at 12:07 PM on September 27, 2021
I look at these things as a matter of risk. What do you risk by not addressing the issue? If that risk is unacceptable then you are compelled to address it.
As others have pointed out, the child of this person should also be involved in this conversation, but I would not leave it at you need to talk to your dad. You must make sure the issue is addressed to your satisfaction and hold the line if it isn't. I know that sucks, but, as I say above, consider the risk.
posted by BeReasonable at 12:10 PM on September 27, 2021
As others have pointed out, the child of this person should also be involved in this conversation, but I would not leave it at you need to talk to your dad. You must make sure the issue is addressed to your satisfaction and hold the line if it isn't. I know that sucks, but, as I say above, consider the risk.
posted by BeReasonable at 12:10 PM on September 27, 2021
What zdravo said. Assume there is a threat. Don't leave the girls alone with him. This is a guy who thought this was cool and okay to share with a family member, after all. Seriously, that's the sort of thing you should have good enough judgement to NOT SHARE WITH THE FAMILY. He honestly thought you'd enjoy reading his sexual fantasies about young kids?!
Also, I have no idea how you'd talk to him about this and/or what good it could possibly do. Or if you could believe him (I wouldn't) if you asked and he said he wasn't really feeling this way towards your children. Like, of course he'd probably lie and say he doesn't even if he does.
posted by jenfullmoon at 12:18 PM on September 27, 2021
Also, I have no idea how you'd talk to him about this and/or what good it could possibly do. Or if you could believe him (I wouldn't) if you asked and he said he wasn't really feeling this way towards your children. Like, of course he'd probably lie and say he doesn't even if he does.
posted by jenfullmoon at 12:18 PM on September 27, 2021
You should address this directly and ask to understand the writing better. I'd suggest being careful about making assumptions that writing is the same thing as an author's fantasies. It sounds like there are all sorts of ways that the writing may be intended, and may be misconstrued.
What is most important is that this has made you uncomfortable in a way that will make your daughter's relationship with their grandfather uncomfortable, limited, or otherwise problematic until you address it. Presumably if he has shared this writing he is willing to talk about it, so I'd suggest just starting there. Don't jump to conclusions, ask to understand. You know your owner relationship best as to whether this conversation will be more open or more effective with your partner there or not.
posted by meinvt at 12:18 PM on September 27, 2021
What is most important is that this has made you uncomfortable in a way that will make your daughter's relationship with their grandfather uncomfortable, limited, or otherwise problematic until you address it. Presumably if he has shared this writing he is willing to talk about it, so I'd suggest just starting there. Don't jump to conclusions, ask to understand. You know your owner relationship best as to whether this conversation will be more open or more effective with your partner there or not.
posted by meinvt at 12:18 PM on September 27, 2021
oh, boy. I feel for you. I really do. This is tough!
On the one hand, as someone who always (sometimes inappropriately) gives people the benefit of the doubt, I acknowledge it's possible this is harmless imagination that has nothing to do with his own grandchildren. And that saying "never ever think that stuff or write it down" would mean that the world wouldn't have Nabokov's _Lolita_ in it. So, sure, we'll keep in mind that even though he is crossing a massive social taboo by writing stuff like this and showing it to people, it's possible it's harmless. (Although his judgment in showing it to you is itself extremely eyebrow raising. WTF?!)
Anyway, the potential cost of underestimating this as a possible genuine red flag is just too high to accept. It's just a risk you can't take.
And I don't think that "talking it out" would do a lick of good. Seriously, come on. If he IS sexually intrigued by your daughters, is he going to admit it to you?!
And if he's NOT, that's a really harsh accusation to make. (I'd say make and and then some if it were going to be useful, but since it isn't likely to be...)
If it were me? I'd keep an eye on things, but also, and most importantly, never ever leave grandpop alone with your girls, ever.
posted by fingersandtoes at 12:18 PM on September 27, 2021
On the one hand, as someone who always (sometimes inappropriately) gives people the benefit of the doubt, I acknowledge it's possible this is harmless imagination that has nothing to do with his own grandchildren. And that saying "never ever think that stuff or write it down" would mean that the world wouldn't have Nabokov's _Lolita_ in it. So, sure, we'll keep in mind that even though he is crossing a massive social taboo by writing stuff like this and showing it to people, it's possible it's harmless. (Although his judgment in showing it to you is itself extremely eyebrow raising. WTF?!)
Anyway, the potential cost of underestimating this as a possible genuine red flag is just too high to accept. It's just a risk you can't take.
And I don't think that "talking it out" would do a lick of good. Seriously, come on. If he IS sexually intrigued by your daughters, is he going to admit it to you?!
And if he's NOT, that's a really harsh accusation to make. (I'd say make and and then some if it were going to be useful, but since it isn't likely to be...)
If it were me? I'd keep an eye on things, but also, and most importantly, never ever leave grandpop alone with your girls, ever.
posted by fingersandtoes at 12:18 PM on September 27, 2021
I think you should talk about it, in part because lot of privileged male writers* think that shit is edgy masterful narrative and women and girls aren't really people so it's fine. No regard for the implications of the content, no self-awareness, it's just the best drama they can think of.
But I certainly think - especially if he did not give you content warnings in advance - a conversation needs to be had with him by somebody saying "what were you thinking a) writing this b) giving it to people who maybe don't want to engage with your sex writings?" and hopefully this comes out in answers that you find put your mind at ease and maybe give him something to think about. But I also think that until that conversation can be had and you have some kind of direction to feel about it, you can make some different decisions about your kids' exposure to him.
*To be fair, lots of fledgling writers of all kinds also do this, it's just such easy shorthand for drama. I used to have the energy to educate/coach alternate solutions on the NaNoWriMo forums. But white men get given novelty-size passes on this stuff and they internalize the idea that they have no responsibility for their content.
posted by Lyn Never at 12:21 PM on September 27, 2021
But I certainly think - especially if he did not give you content warnings in advance - a conversation needs to be had with him by somebody saying "what were you thinking a) writing this b) giving it to people who maybe don't want to engage with your sex writings?" and hopefully this comes out in answers that you find put your mind at ease and maybe give him something to think about. But I also think that until that conversation can be had and you have some kind of direction to feel about it, you can make some different decisions about your kids' exposure to him.
*To be fair, lots of fledgling writers of all kinds also do this, it's just such easy shorthand for drama. I used to have the energy to educate/coach alternate solutions on the NaNoWriMo forums. But white men get given novelty-size passes on this stuff and they internalize the idea that they have no responsibility for their content.
posted by Lyn Never at 12:21 PM on September 27, 2021
What good could a conversation possibly do? Is he really going to say "Yes I would like to act this out in real life" or "Obviously I have these disturbing thoughts in my head to the point that I felt compelled to write about them and I don't want to act on them but hey who can ever really be sure"? No. He's going to say something along the lines of "No no no, of course I would never act on them, this is merely my ART!" and then you spend the rest of time being suspicious and vigilant. Or you just skip the conversation and go straight to being suspicious and vigilant. I personally would rather not talk about it at all if I could avoid it because what is even the point and I sure as hell would never leave my kids (disclaimer: I don't actually have kids) alone with him anyway and it would be easier to maintain some semblance of normal family interaction if possible. But if I had to have the conversation, I totally would. Gross.
posted by HotToddy at 12:31 PM on September 27, 2021
posted by HotToddy at 12:31 PM on September 27, 2021
+1 to the idea that someone who shares stories featuring child sex and demon rape with family has problematic judgment and should not be left alone with kids. Even if "it's just art," this person's sense of boundaries vis-a-vis family members is off.
posted by Mid at 12:35 PM on September 27, 2021
posted by Mid at 12:35 PM on September 27, 2021
I find the conflation of fiction and fantasies in some of the responses here pretty troubling. I wager most of you at least read fiction of some form that includes activities (sexual or otherwise) that you don't even want to engage in, much less ever would. In fact, probably a nontrivial percentage of you engage in various forms of sexual role-play that mimics acts you would be appalled to engage in "for real." It seems pretty darned unlikely that an academic writing what sounds like a technically sophisticated work of fiction is oblivious enough to social norms that he's just transcribing his sexual fantasies about illegal activities and handing it to all and sundry, including the parents of his supposed fantasy objects.
That said, I do think some care is called for here. I and the other parent (if involved) would at least want to have a discussion with him to gauge his attitude towards what he's writing...whether he seems to have a clear distinction between fiction and reality generally, whether he's conscious of why people might find such subject matter disturbing (as others have noted, this is probably the easiest way into the conversation, as it doesn't lead with accusing him of pedophilia). I feel like the tone he uses will be even more revelatory than his words. Follow your instincts afterwards. Regardless, hopefully you've already given your girls talks about avoiding sexual predators within the trusted adult group (where there are far more likely predators than in the "stranger danger" group), but it's a good thing to revisit with some frequency as their social networks develop and their bodies start to mature.
posted by praemunire at 12:36 PM on September 27, 2021
That said, I do think some care is called for here. I and the other parent (if involved) would at least want to have a discussion with him to gauge his attitude towards what he's writing...whether he seems to have a clear distinction between fiction and reality generally, whether he's conscious of why people might find such subject matter disturbing (as others have noted, this is probably the easiest way into the conversation, as it doesn't lead with accusing him of pedophilia). I feel like the tone he uses will be even more revelatory than his words. Follow your instincts afterwards. Regardless, hopefully you've already given your girls talks about avoiding sexual predators within the trusted adult group (where there are far more likely predators than in the "stranger danger" group), but it's a good thing to revisit with some frequency as their social networks develop and their bodies start to mature.
posted by praemunire at 12:36 PM on September 27, 2021
He has already crossed one very bright line.
He has let the parent of 10 year old daughters — with whom he is actually spending time — know that he is writing sex scenes involving a pair of 10 year old girls.
The lack of judgement such a lapse would require is breathtaking.
I don’t think he should spend time with those girls. Given what he has already done with no evidence of so much as a second thought, I couldn’t be sure what he wouldn’t do just as blithely.
posted by jamjam at 12:40 PM on September 27, 2021
He has let the parent of 10 year old daughters — with whom he is actually spending time — know that he is writing sex scenes involving a pair of 10 year old girls.
The lack of judgement such a lapse would require is breathtaking.
I don’t think he should spend time with those girls. Given what he has already done with no evidence of so much as a second thought, I couldn’t be sure what he wouldn’t do just as blithely.
posted by jamjam at 12:40 PM on September 27, 2021
I don't want to diminish your concerns, but I do want to take a big step back. Has your partner (the author's child, right?) read this, and what is their take? Have you talked to other family members you trust who have read it?
The similar ages would totally creep me out. However, in the context of the book, are the fairy creatures children? I know that's a really weird question, but it sounds like a fantasy world. Are they supposed to be mature adult creatures? Which is to say, is it a story about adult lesbian fairies?
Have you read any other of his fiction? I'm thinking not, but if so, is it all highly sexual? Is some of this a discomfort with thinking of your father-in-law as a sexual person? Could he have written sexual content that wouldn't have made you squirm a bit? I'm asking because my guess is that the succubus scene was a rape perpetrated by the female based on my very limited knowledge of succubus creatures.
And, we know that many people have fantasies that don't align with what they want in real life. Also, we know that many people write about things that they definitely not don't want at all. I wrote a very short piece of fiction about a really terrible thing that I definitely did not want to happen, and it was partly a way of channeling some anxiety about climate change, etc. I would be horrified if people thought that scenario was something I wanted or dreamed about, or it somehow meant I was a threat to people.
But, yeah, you called the fairy a "girl," and yeah, that would be a concern. I'd talk to your partner and get their take, and also spend some time journaling, and also try to hold off on addressing this immediately, especially if he's not going to be around the granddaughters any time soon.
posted by bluedaisy at 12:53 PM on September 27, 2021
The similar ages would totally creep me out. However, in the context of the book, are the fairy creatures children? I know that's a really weird question, but it sounds like a fantasy world. Are they supposed to be mature adult creatures? Which is to say, is it a story about adult lesbian fairies?
Have you read any other of his fiction? I'm thinking not, but if so, is it all highly sexual? Is some of this a discomfort with thinking of your father-in-law as a sexual person? Could he have written sexual content that wouldn't have made you squirm a bit? I'm asking because my guess is that the succubus scene was a rape perpetrated by the female based on my very limited knowledge of succubus creatures.
And, we know that many people have fantasies that don't align with what they want in real life. Also, we know that many people write about things that they definitely not don't want at all. I wrote a very short piece of fiction about a really terrible thing that I definitely did not want to happen, and it was partly a way of channeling some anxiety about climate change, etc. I would be horrified if people thought that scenario was something I wanted or dreamed about, or it somehow meant I was a threat to people.
But, yeah, you called the fairy a "girl," and yeah, that would be a concern. I'd talk to your partner and get their take, and also spend some time journaling, and also try to hold off on addressing this immediately, especially if he's not going to be around the granddaughters any time soon.
posted by bluedaisy at 12:53 PM on September 27, 2021
You need more information. Talk to him. He clearly does not understand the issue. He values your opinion because he gave this novel to you to read. As others have suggested, don’t attack or accuse but be curious and ask questions. Listen carefully to what he has to say.
This would raise questions for me as a parent but I would be more concerned if the two fairytale characters were having sex with an older guy rather than with each other. It’s still icky.
posted by Bella Donna at 1:01 PM on September 27, 2021
This would raise questions for me as a parent but I would be more concerned if the two fairytale characters were having sex with an older guy rather than with each other. It’s still icky.
posted by Bella Donna at 1:01 PM on September 27, 2021
I would be interested to know what he thinks he's doing, because this sounds very Alan Moore-ish to me (I am Not A Fan). There is a literary throughline among left-leaning people who came up in the 60s or 70s where it is good and pure and virtuous to write about children's sexuality because children's sexuality is good and pure and virtuous, and where it's good and pure and politically mobilizing to write (a la Moore) extensively about girls and young women's sexual experiences because it's....Representation of those poor creatures, who are normally depicted only by patriarchy, not by left-leaning, sensitive men.
I think there's a meaningful possibility that he's sharing all this because he thinks that of course this is a virtuous liberatory sexual project that naturally has nothing to do with anything sordid and abusive and since it is so obviously virtuous and liberatory everyone will only see it as fiction and not as particularly TMI disturbing squick.
I've also read several things from leftish men of that generation where it seemed clear that they identified with the girls they wrote about and that they were looking outward from their own understanding of their own sexuality/vulnerability/victimhood, which they could only process by projecting it onto the culturally "innocent" figure of the female child.
So for me, I would want to have a conversation with him - not because there's some explanation where it is cool and fun to receive your FIL's sexually explicit fiction but because it would not be totally out of line with leftist writers of his generation if he just thought this was all very clearly symbolical art about feelings. You still might not feel comfortable leaving the girls with him, but there's a difference in degree between "I'm worried that my FIL is actually, literally a pedophile" and "I'm worried that my FIL does not understand contemporary norms around discussion of sex around children".
posted by Frowner at 1:10 PM on September 27, 2021
I think there's a meaningful possibility that he's sharing all this because he thinks that of course this is a virtuous liberatory sexual project that naturally has nothing to do with anything sordid and abusive and since it is so obviously virtuous and liberatory everyone will only see it as fiction and not as particularly TMI disturbing squick.
I've also read several things from leftish men of that generation where it seemed clear that they identified with the girls they wrote about and that they were looking outward from their own understanding of their own sexuality/vulnerability/victimhood, which they could only process by projecting it onto the culturally "innocent" figure of the female child.
So for me, I would want to have a conversation with him - not because there's some explanation where it is cool and fun to receive your FIL's sexually explicit fiction but because it would not be totally out of line with leftist writers of his generation if he just thought this was all very clearly symbolical art about feelings. You still might not feel comfortable leaving the girls with him, but there's a difference in degree between "I'm worried that my FIL is actually, literally a pedophile" and "I'm worried that my FIL does not understand contemporary norms around discussion of sex around children".
posted by Frowner at 1:10 PM on September 27, 2021
I was trying to think of how to phrase the generational analysis that Frowner has laid out so ably. I'd add that if he read a lot of SF/F growing up, he almost certainly read a number of stories in which sex with barely-pubescent children was treated more as a plot element than as the sensitive and highly upsetting material we would consider it today. (Jack Vance, phew; and how old was Danaerys in the books???) He may be drawing on those models to some extent without considering how sensibilities have (rightfully) changed.
posted by praemunire at 1:30 PM on September 27, 2021
posted by praemunire at 1:30 PM on September 27, 2021
And that saying "never ever think that stuff or write it down" would mean that the world wouldn't have Nabokov's _Lolita_ in it.
I mean. Count me among the people who wouldn't miss it. I certainly wouldn't miss some of the various book covers.
I think since he gave it to you and others to read, supposedly for your feedback, you should first reach out to these others if they are in your circle, ask if they've read it and ask for their take. You can and should be able to voice that you were taken aback by the depiction of the girls and the sex scenes. You can acknowledge that this is one part due to your relationship with this man but obviously and of course because you have daughters of that age.
One thing that leaps out at me are that this could be a kind of grooming. 'What will the mother of these girls say to me about this?' And for that reason, I do think you can and should talk to him about this. Some questions I would have for him is 1) what kind of feedback are you looking for? 2) do you realize how inappropriate the scenarios are that you've put these children in? 3) do you realize how uncomfortable this has made me - both from a standpoint of confronting your exploration of sexuality but also because of my daughters who I am fiercely protective of and who have a possible lifetime of sexualized imagery, expectations and harassment headed their way?
And I'm going to throw this in just because and don't take it as anything that you need to hear OP, if you don't. But this is a great time to dive in on how to help your daughters talk about these kinds of things should they happen. Books about bodily autonomy and how you as a parent should be open and frank about body parts and sex...in an age appropriate way. Kids need a way to talk about this stuff that is factual and they need to know that you are a safe space and your partner, co-parent should be on board with this, too. All children have the potential to be sexually victimized and it's so important to set a bedrock of truth and openness and safety early on. If anyone does anything to your kiddos, they should always feel empowered to come to you and tell you. There are "no secrets only surprises" is one I learned for my family. "Surprises" are things like birthday presents or a special day out. There are no secrets - we can tell anything and everything.
posted by amanda at 2:41 PM on September 27, 2021
I mean. Count me among the people who wouldn't miss it. I certainly wouldn't miss some of the various book covers.
I think since he gave it to you and others to read, supposedly for your feedback, you should first reach out to these others if they are in your circle, ask if they've read it and ask for their take. You can and should be able to voice that you were taken aback by the depiction of the girls and the sex scenes. You can acknowledge that this is one part due to your relationship with this man but obviously and of course because you have daughters of that age.
One thing that leaps out at me are that this could be a kind of grooming. 'What will the mother of these girls say to me about this?' And for that reason, I do think you can and should talk to him about this. Some questions I would have for him is 1) what kind of feedback are you looking for? 2) do you realize how inappropriate the scenarios are that you've put these children in? 3) do you realize how uncomfortable this has made me - both from a standpoint of confronting your exploration of sexuality but also because of my daughters who I am fiercely protective of and who have a possible lifetime of sexualized imagery, expectations and harassment headed their way?
And I'm going to throw this in just because and don't take it as anything that you need to hear OP, if you don't. But this is a great time to dive in on how to help your daughters talk about these kinds of things should they happen. Books about bodily autonomy and how you as a parent should be open and frank about body parts and sex...in an age appropriate way. Kids need a way to talk about this stuff that is factual and they need to know that you are a safe space and your partner, co-parent should be on board with this, too. All children have the potential to be sexually victimized and it's so important to set a bedrock of truth and openness and safety early on. If anyone does anything to your kiddos, they should always feel empowered to come to you and tell you. There are "no secrets only surprises" is one I learned for my family. "Surprises" are things like birthday presents or a special day out. There are no secrets - we can tell anything and everything.
posted by amanda at 2:41 PM on September 27, 2021
Also, and I'm going to throw this out there, too, because it bothers me from a writing/creep standpoint. While it's not like way outside the norm at all for kids to explore with their own bodies and there might be some looking and even touching with a close friends, it is outside the norm for the kind of activity that he has put in his book. 10 year olds giving each other orgasms. C'mon. That's really ascribing a level of sexuality that is not only outside the norm, it's just wrong. Most people would have a suspicion if they heard kids of this age group experimenting to that extent that they had been inappropriately sexualized at a very young age. Like, this is not beautiful or mysterious. It's gross. Which is why some old fart should probably not be writing about what kids are or aren't doing sexually.
posted by amanda at 2:46 PM on September 27, 2021
posted by amanda at 2:46 PM on September 27, 2021
As an incest survivor with PTSD and a fiction writer who has definitely written (for myself) inappropriate things, I just have two thoughts for you.
1) Risk of inappropriate shit going down: You do not need to justify your concern. You don't have to extend the benefit of the doubt. You don't have to ask him any questions. You can do any of those things, but you really don't have to.
I have always taken the position that no one is 'owed' a relationship with my kids, goes double for being in situations where my kids are more than a room away from me with them. They have to earn it. This is not a courtroom. This is my family and I am my kids' mother before most things. My relatives have other friends and relatives; they are adults. They can bear the brunt of any grey areas where I feel uncomfortable.
My instincts are not always correct, and my conclusions can totally be wrong, but they are still the best tools I have when it comes to my kids' emotional and physical security.
When my kids were small, their dad and I chose who got to be in their lives. I gradually and naturally have had less say, but even with kids 10 and 16 I still do get some, especially w/ my 10 yo.
My line in the sand is not abuse per se. I have an in-law that is really big on the idea that he's responsible for helping my boys to "man up." I have been careful about permitting that guy to put his considerable baggage in front of my kids. It's not dramatic. I don't think he knows about this rule and my kids didn't until they actually asked. I do have a reputation in my family for being a mom who sometimes has weird rules (like very few sleepovers) - which has served me well lately since I had to tell some relatives they could not fly from Alberta to here and stay with my unvaccinated child mid-fourth-wave.
Also your description as "beyond being very quirky and historically troubled in other (non-sexual) areas" does not lead me to think this is someone you already thought was like, grounded and safe.
So: what I would do is just back off any situation where the kids are alone with him for the next 6 months to a year and see what I thought later. No confrontation, no leading questions...just an unspoken boundary. My husband would have to be on board.
I in general agree with Frowner's analysis in some ways, like, that's possible, but...I personally wouldn't have a conversation about it. I'd have fun trips to [fun place] and board game night and Thanksgiving dinners all together, but no solo trips (day or otherwise) with my kids. And obviously if I thought abuse was going on or if conversations got weirder, I would go further than that.
2) On weird ass fiction writing: What people write doesn't make them any particular kind of a person. But this episode does say something about him as a person - he didn't consider what the impact of his choice to share that writing with you, mother of his granddaughters, would have, and may not even see it as problematic. And that does speak to where he's at as a person.
posted by warriorqueen at 2:50 PM on September 27, 2021
1) Risk of inappropriate shit going down: You do not need to justify your concern. You don't have to extend the benefit of the doubt. You don't have to ask him any questions. You can do any of those things, but you really don't have to.
I have always taken the position that no one is 'owed' a relationship with my kids, goes double for being in situations where my kids are more than a room away from me with them. They have to earn it. This is not a courtroom. This is my family and I am my kids' mother before most things. My relatives have other friends and relatives; they are adults. They can bear the brunt of any grey areas where I feel uncomfortable.
My instincts are not always correct, and my conclusions can totally be wrong, but they are still the best tools I have when it comes to my kids' emotional and physical security.
When my kids were small, their dad and I chose who got to be in their lives. I gradually and naturally have had less say, but even with kids 10 and 16 I still do get some, especially w/ my 10 yo.
My line in the sand is not abuse per se. I have an in-law that is really big on the idea that he's responsible for helping my boys to "man up." I have been careful about permitting that guy to put his considerable baggage in front of my kids. It's not dramatic. I don't think he knows about this rule and my kids didn't until they actually asked. I do have a reputation in my family for being a mom who sometimes has weird rules (like very few sleepovers) - which has served me well lately since I had to tell some relatives they could not fly from Alberta to here and stay with my unvaccinated child mid-fourth-wave.
Also your description as "beyond being very quirky and historically troubled in other (non-sexual) areas" does not lead me to think this is someone you already thought was like, grounded and safe.
So: what I would do is just back off any situation where the kids are alone with him for the next 6 months to a year and see what I thought later. No confrontation, no leading questions...just an unspoken boundary. My husband would have to be on board.
I in general agree with Frowner's analysis in some ways, like, that's possible, but...I personally wouldn't have a conversation about it. I'd have fun trips to [fun place] and board game night and Thanksgiving dinners all together, but no solo trips (day or otherwise) with my kids. And obviously if I thought abuse was going on or if conversations got weirder, I would go further than that.
2) On weird ass fiction writing: What people write doesn't make them any particular kind of a person. But this episode does say something about him as a person - he didn't consider what the impact of his choice to share that writing with you, mother of his granddaughters, would have, and may not even see it as problematic. And that does speak to where he's at as a person.
posted by warriorqueen at 2:50 PM on September 27, 2021
Similar to amanda, my concern is that his decision to share this with you is a sort of test to see how you react. This could be because I just watched the HBO doc on the NXIVM cult, where the leader often revealed some pretty monstrous thoughts to his followers, but often in the guise of 'this is just a thought experiment.' Anyhow, I would talk to him for that reason - to make it clear to him that you don't find his literary experiments/tract productive/engaging/etc., similar along the lines of what Frowner has helpfully laid out.
posted by coffeecat at 3:02 PM on September 27, 2021
posted by coffeecat at 3:02 PM on September 27, 2021
I just want to say, it's one thing to never leave the kids alone, but it's also OK if you just plain don't want your kids to be around this person PERIOD for awhile. Give yourself space to address this. This is so super fucking creepy. You are not overreacting. And people don't have to meet some agreed-upon level of Real Child Abusers. If you're not comfortable in a family setting because you're watching your kids like a hawk, then you're not comfortable.
posted by nakedmolerats at 3:21 PM on September 27, 2021
posted by nakedmolerats at 3:21 PM on September 27, 2021
If you don’t say something he knows that this is a boundary he can cross without even having to have an uncomfortable conversation about it. That sort of normalizing sounds potentially dangerous in this situation. You need to let him know that a fuss WILL be made if he oversteps. I am not interested in Art and Literature and what it all means. Just whether or not these particular girls will be told things that screw with their heads. I would check in and make sure he hasn’t said anything to the granddaughters that made them feel uncomfortable. I wouldn’t be surprised if he had shared this story with them.
“Wow, I was really shocked at what you wrote and shared with me. Writing about sexual fantasies with children the same age as Daughter is really concerning for me.”
posted by Bottlecap at 3:29 PM on September 27, 2021
“Wow, I was really shocked at what you wrote and shared with me. Writing about sexual fantasies with children the same age as Daughter is really concerning for me.”
posted by Bottlecap at 3:29 PM on September 27, 2021
I'm an author, and I find it uncomfortable to share totally vanilla, consenting adult sex scenes with my spouse, just because it's weird to lay that thing out on paper. I would absolutely think twice about allowing your child to spend time with an author who writes about child orgasms and succubus rape, especially when your child is exactly the same age and gender as the subject in the story.
Writers often write things that are awful, and that doesn't necessarily describe them as human beings. I've often joked it's not a book without a body count. But writing about awful things is not the same as writing an endorsement of awful things. This sounds like an endorsement of awful things. No one is speaking against it, calling it out, pointing out that it's dangerous-- it's not even being portrayed as dangerous or questionable.
I think you very much can tell what kind of person I am by the things my characters endorse. And I think your FIL has told you a lot about himself by sharing this with you. He thought it was appropriate to write it, endorse it, and then hand it to you. He is not a safe person.
posted by headspace at 3:34 PM on September 27, 2021
Writers often write things that are awful, and that doesn't necessarily describe them as human beings. I've often joked it's not a book without a body count. But writing about awful things is not the same as writing an endorsement of awful things. This sounds like an endorsement of awful things. No one is speaking against it, calling it out, pointing out that it's dangerous-- it's not even being portrayed as dangerous or questionable.
I think you very much can tell what kind of person I am by the things my characters endorse. And I think your FIL has told you a lot about himself by sharing this with you. He thought it was appropriate to write it, endorse it, and then hand it to you. He is not a safe person.
posted by headspace at 3:34 PM on September 27, 2021
Jesus. I would not under any circumstances leave my children alone in a room with him for more than 5 minutes while I peed with the bathroom door cracked open to listen. Sleepovers out of the question.
My personal comfort level is to not leave children alone with men in general, let alone the ones who write smutty passages about little girls. He is voluntarily telling you something important about what he sees in 10 year olds.
And I would not mention it to him because doing so might make him become more sneaky. Let him be awkward and clunky and not fully aware that talking about children's orgasms is WILDLY inappropriate. It will help scare off other parents he tries this with.
I would actually view his behaviour extremely ungenerously. To me it reads as a form of deliberate grooming - weakening your boundaries and pushing the line of what you'll allow, so he gains a little more access and a little less scrutiny towards your children. Malcolm Gladwell's profile of Jerry Sandusky is worth reading.
To behave as if he's a pedophile may be an over-reaction, but the potential consequence if you under-react is very high.
posted by pseudostrabismus at 3:50 PM on September 27, 2021
My personal comfort level is to not leave children alone with men in general, let alone the ones who write smutty passages about little girls. He is voluntarily telling you something important about what he sees in 10 year olds.
And I would not mention it to him because doing so might make him become more sneaky. Let him be awkward and clunky and not fully aware that talking about children's orgasms is WILDLY inappropriate. It will help scare off other parents he tries this with.
I would actually view his behaviour extremely ungenerously. To me it reads as a form of deliberate grooming - weakening your boundaries and pushing the line of what you'll allow, so he gains a little more access and a little less scrutiny towards your children. Malcolm Gladwell's profile of Jerry Sandusky is worth reading.
To behave as if he's a pedophile may be an over-reaction, but the potential consequence if you under-react is very high.
posted by pseudostrabismus at 3:50 PM on September 27, 2021
Hm. You gotta go with your gut but one reason I think you should talk about this with everyone is just so that it isn't a weird broken stair type thing. And that it doesn't become a weird secret in and of itself, the kind which can harm people. Like, if he's sharing it then it should be spoken about. And you should definitely speak about it with any who has a say in whether and how your kids spend time with this person. The group who received the material, if nobody talks about it then it becomes a thing which no one has talked about. And I totally get that inclination. And, yeah, I guess you have to weigh the options on whether he could decide to be sneaky or if he gets a wakeup call that people are watching him. I mean, he shared it. If it was a test and nobody said anything...what does that mean? Most people when receiving material like this won't say anything because it's so socially off that most people will just be at a loss. But if he does have a problem with personally sexualizing kids and it came out later that lots of people read this and nobody reacted...ugh. That would just suck. And maybe that's not possible in this situation that some kid could come into contact with him and have a bad interaction. So, again, go with your gut. I mean, what if you had just come across this writing in a drawer and read it without asking, you'd be in a real pickle and it would be so cringe. But, he asked you and others to read it. You can talk about it without declaring your intentions in terms of access to your kids.
posted by amanda at 4:32 PM on September 27, 2021
posted by amanda at 4:32 PM on September 27, 2021
I have granddaughters around that age, I'm probably around the same age as this guy, and I'm a peer in terms of education. If I found out that my granddaughters were around an older relative who thought writing and sharing this kind of crap was ok I would do everything in my power to make sure they did not EVER spend time alone with him. I would also, as a peer, confront him about this and urge him to get therapy now. I don't care what kind of shit he's been through. (If he were writing about the sexual abuse of little boys I'd probably wonder if something horrible like this happened to him at a young age.) The way you phrased the question I wonder if the girls are cousins. If so, you, your partner, and the parents of the other girl need to get together to discuss this and present a united front. He sounds like an entitled manipulative arrogant asshole.
posted by mareli at 4:40 PM on September 27, 2021
posted by mareli at 4:40 PM on September 27, 2021
What would you do if this was not your father-in-law but a family friend? How much leeway would you afford him? I think we can easily tell from your rightfully charged post. It is truly creepy how blind he appears to be about the appropriateness of sharing this manuscript. It almost feels deliberate and designed to provoke a loyalty test where he, and free speech, win.
I think you know inside what the best thing to do is. I think your spouse's response to your alarm is going to be the most difficult part of this issue. If she agrees she has to confront her father's potentially fatal flaw, but if she doesn't is she potentially sacrificing her daughters' safety and psyches?
This sounds more and more like a Greek tragedy, and I don't envy either of your positions.
posted by citygirl at 4:41 PM on September 27, 2021
I think you know inside what the best thing to do is. I think your spouse's response to your alarm is going to be the most difficult part of this issue. If she agrees she has to confront her father's potentially fatal flaw, but if she doesn't is she potentially sacrificing her daughters' safety and psyches?
This sounds more and more like a Greek tragedy, and I don't envy either of your positions.
posted by citygirl at 4:41 PM on September 27, 2021
I use sort of a "CYA" principle in parenting and other decisions. "How am I going to feel about this in hindsight if the worst happens, especially as I was aware of a potential risk?" It's one thing to later discover that someone who was seemingly trustworthy and not a festival of red flags abused your children. It's another to have doubts about someone, to push the doubts aside and later discover you should have taken things seriously. You'll feel a sense of crushing guilt forever. Grandpa can socialize with the kids while you or another trusted adult who is aware of the situation is present. I don't think the upside potential of alone time with grandpa is worth even a small risk, especially as "group time with grandpa" is a perfectly good substitute.
posted by Larry David Syndrome at 5:03 PM on September 27, 2021
posted by Larry David Syndrome at 5:03 PM on September 27, 2021
I find this incredibly creepy and would definitely not be okay with having the girls out of sight while in the vicinity of this guy. I do not have a charitable take on this and think it is a giant red flag. Even if it isn't a pedophile red flag (which my money is on, but sadly I've got some personal trauma around that shit), as others have pointed out it would mean he has an incredibly poor grasp on what is acceptable or normative familial behavior.
I would definitely discuss it with your partner and the other folks he showed. I'm not sure whether it is worth discussing in any meaningful way with your father-in-law. I feel like that is something to be negotiated with your partner, but I don't think there is a possible reaction from FIL that would truly ease your concerns (or at least for me there wouldn't be). He's not going to cop to fantasizing about 10 year girls. You'll probably get a defensive response about how it is "art" and therefore totally okay; at best you'll get an acknowledgment that he understands why you feel uncomfortable. But none of that changes the fact that he wrote that shit and then showed it to you.
Would lastly just like to say that unfortunately pedophiles look just like everyone else. It is not generally obvious and they don't need to have a history of sketchy behavior or have done a Big Creepy Thing. If someone shows a red flag and your gut is telling you they're off, THAT IS ENOUGH to be extremely wary of them.
posted by DTMFA at 5:21 PM on September 27, 2021
I would definitely discuss it with your partner and the other folks he showed. I'm not sure whether it is worth discussing in any meaningful way with your father-in-law. I feel like that is something to be negotiated with your partner, but I don't think there is a possible reaction from FIL that would truly ease your concerns (or at least for me there wouldn't be). He's not going to cop to fantasizing about 10 year girls. You'll probably get a defensive response about how it is "art" and therefore totally okay; at best you'll get an acknowledgment that he understands why you feel uncomfortable. But none of that changes the fact that he wrote that shit and then showed it to you.
Would lastly just like to say that unfortunately pedophiles look just like everyone else. It is not generally obvious and they don't need to have a history of sketchy behavior or have done a Big Creepy Thing. If someone shows a red flag and your gut is telling you they're off, THAT IS ENOUGH to be extremely wary of them.
posted by DTMFA at 5:21 PM on September 27, 2021
I think people above have some good advice. All I have to add as someone who started reading adult novels at a very young age: I would be appalled if my grandparent had written a sexually charged book about ten year old girls when I was the same age. There is no way in hell would I want to spend time with them no matter how "safe" they were in reality. Just the thought of my grandparent considering me in sexualized terms would end the relationship, if I had any power in the situation.
posted by oneirodynia at 5:54 PM on September 27, 2021
posted by oneirodynia at 5:54 PM on September 27, 2021
You might want to set a gift policy.
This is written by someone whose grandfather (innocently, he was fine) thought it would be fortifying to share his love of 50's-60's speculative fiction with his tween-ish post-college-reading-level granddaughter. I wasn't ever in any danger from anybody in my life, but I do think that I lacked the general life knowledge to put Heinlein's ideas about relationships into perspective. Although, I guess a lot of people, then and now, don't really put that into good perspective, so maybe it wasn't an age thing.
Still, gift guidelines are helpful for a whole bunch of reasons.
posted by amtho at 6:48 PM on September 27, 2021
This is written by someone whose grandfather (innocently, he was fine) thought it would be fortifying to share his love of 50's-60's speculative fiction with his tween-ish post-college-reading-level granddaughter. I wasn't ever in any danger from anybody in my life, but I do think that I lacked the general life knowledge to put Heinlein's ideas about relationships into perspective. Although, I guess a lot of people, then and now, don't really put that into good perspective, so maybe it wasn't an age thing.
Still, gift guidelines are helpful for a whole bunch of reasons.
posted by amtho at 6:48 PM on September 27, 2021
There's a difference between what we want to write about and what we fantasize about. There's also a difference between what we fantasize about and what we want to actually happen in real life. I think we all understand that. The problem is that these things aren't always different. A lot of the time they aren't!
A couple of things really bother me about what you've described.
The first thing is what some others have already pointed out: Sharing this with you indicates a real lack of judgment at best, and an intentional testing of boundaries at worst.
But also, the content you describe itself is disturbing to me and not just because it involves children having sex. The way you describe it reminds me a lot of some of the delusions/talking points of actual pedophiles: That children desire sex, that children having sex is striking a blow against societal repression, and societal repression is the only reason it's bad for children to have sex (because it causes shame).
posted by Kutsuwamushi at 7:25 PM on September 27, 2021
A couple of things really bother me about what you've described.
The first thing is what some others have already pointed out: Sharing this with you indicates a real lack of judgment at best, and an intentional testing of boundaries at worst.
But also, the content you describe itself is disturbing to me and not just because it involves children having sex. The way you describe it reminds me a lot of some of the delusions/talking points of actual pedophiles: That children desire sex, that children having sex is striking a blow against societal repression, and societal repression is the only reason it's bad for children to have sex (because it causes shame).
posted by Kutsuwamushi at 7:25 PM on September 27, 2021
I write and read extremely disturbing fiction and have friends who also read and write such, and I am absolutely fine having them around because they know reality and are careful and protective with children. I have a family member who reads disturbing graphic descriptions of abuse who I supervise around my kids and will not let be alone because they do not have the same boundaries.
He didn't warn you or talk to you at length about the content - that is deeply weird. Unless you have an on-going editor/reader relationship where he might have assumed that this is already expected, it is inappropriate to share content like that without discussing it first.
I would talk with your partner so you have a united front on this and just firmly supervise your kids around him, and double down on the good touch/bad touch and safe to share secrets stuff with your girls.
If you feel like you want to have a conversation with him for clarity - it does sound Alan Moore-inspired - then go for it, but be braced for it to go badly as well.
And for someone who wrote about not wanting Lolita - that book means a lot to me as a survivor of abuse, it is a powerful exploration of pedophilia and self-justification and just - I remember reading it for the first time as a precocious and very unhappy child, and realising how diminished he was and at the end when Dolores had grown up, a sense of relief that she survived and he was - pathetic.
posted by dorothyisunderwood at 7:40 PM on September 27, 2021
He didn't warn you or talk to you at length about the content - that is deeply weird. Unless you have an on-going editor/reader relationship where he might have assumed that this is already expected, it is inappropriate to share content like that without discussing it first.
I would talk with your partner so you have a united front on this and just firmly supervise your kids around him, and double down on the good touch/bad touch and safe to share secrets stuff with your girls.
If you feel like you want to have a conversation with him for clarity - it does sound Alan Moore-inspired - then go for it, but be braced for it to go badly as well.
And for someone who wrote about not wanting Lolita - that book means a lot to me as a survivor of abuse, it is a powerful exploration of pedophilia and self-justification and just - I remember reading it for the first time as a precocious and very unhappy child, and realising how diminished he was and at the end when Dolores had grown up, a sense of relief that she survived and he was - pathetic.
posted by dorothyisunderwood at 7:40 PM on September 27, 2021
“Smart, talented,” and “academic” are judgment calls. Coming from a pseudointellectual hack, this would be no more disturbing. As a matter of fact, many people I know who pass around their self-indulgent unpublished/unfinished novels to family/friends for unpaid review/feedback are neither as smart nor as talented as they think they are. “Drop what you’re doing and tell me how brilliant my weird, creepy fiction is!” is actually the first boundary violation here.
It’s just not the most important one.
As others have said, sharing this kind of weird work-in-progress with you is either another sign that he has dangerously poor interpersonal radar, or a deliberate test of your own radar to see what he can get past it. Or, more likely, both.
Set the boundary without apology. Explain that the creepiness is why you’re doing it. If he responds with righteous indignation or a wounded-gazelle gambit, it’s only further proof that you’ve made the right call.
And yes, if this is the father of your partner, they have to be in on the conversation, and they have to be on your side.
Finally: I don’t care if this kind of writing is “therapeutic” or “healing” for him. That’s another manipulative tactic to see if you’ll bite your tongue about the content in the service of his feelings. Don’t take the bait.
posted by armeowda at 7:46 PM on September 27, 2021
It’s just not the most important one.
As others have said, sharing this kind of weird work-in-progress with you is either another sign that he has dangerously poor interpersonal radar, or a deliberate test of your own radar to see what he can get past it. Or, more likely, both.
Set the boundary without apology. Explain that the creepiness is why you’re doing it. If he responds with righteous indignation or a wounded-gazelle gambit, it’s only further proof that you’ve made the right call.
And yes, if this is the father of your partner, they have to be in on the conversation, and they have to be on your side.
Finally: I don’t care if this kind of writing is “therapeutic” or “healing” for him. That’s another manipulative tactic to see if you’ll bite your tongue about the content in the service of his feelings. Don’t take the bait.
posted by armeowda at 7:46 PM on September 27, 2021
Has he asked for feedback with what he shared? Ask him if he considered making the characters male. If not, why not? Why are the characters this age? Does it reflect something about the author’s childhood? Ask your spouse if your father in law has ever mentioned being a survivor of sexual assault, especially as a child. It’s fair to say, content-wise, that it’s something you wouldn’t buy, recommend to others, or seek out if it was free. It’s just not interesting. Perhaps it’s cathartic on some level for him.
Some of this conversation moves this away from your children (plenty of good thoughts on that already) and re-centers the focus on him. Yes, he is creepy. The above gives you some other angles, is all.
posted by childofTethys at 7:55 PM on September 27, 2021
Some of this conversation moves this away from your children (plenty of good thoughts on that already) and re-centers the focus on him. Yes, he is creepy. The above gives you some other angles, is all.
posted by childofTethys at 7:55 PM on September 27, 2021
Frowner articulated my immediate/first thought quite well. He may be alluding or associating with figures known to convey purity, or even futurism (bridging much popularity right now), or both.
It would be difficult to tell without a conversation inferring context/tone. You can always compliment the work (genuinely.. just.. find something you like about it, ugh, sorry!), then gauge his response and go from there.
posted by firstdaffodils at 10:06 PM on September 27, 2021
It would be difficult to tell without a conversation inferring context/tone. You can always compliment the work (genuinely.. just.. find something you like about it, ugh, sorry!), then gauge his response and go from there.
posted by firstdaffodils at 10:06 PM on September 27, 2021
Let’s recap, shall we? Your FIL has been spending time with his ten year old grand daughters. Then he’s been writing about ten year girls having sex. Then he’s been sending it TO THEIR PARENTS TO READ AND ASKING WHAT THEY THINK ABOUT IT. My gut feeling is that this guy is feeling out what your boundaries are to see what he can get away with. If it were me, I’d limit contact with him so fast his head would spin. I would be very blunt to him and everyone else exactly why my kids weren’t allowed near him.
If he had given you a heads up and expressed any kind of awareness at all about the content of the book to you, parents of children the same age, I might, MIGHT! have given him the benefit of the doubt but he didn’t so I think he was just quietly waiting to see if you’d react.
Of course, the natural comeback to all of this is that it’s a book and writers can write about whatever without it being true and blah blah blah. Well, I’m actually a writer. And a mother of kids the same age. People here are telling you to say nothing and be vigilant. I’m telling you to be very blunt, tell him he’s on notice, tell everyone else and to hell with the consequences and never let your kids out of sight around him. Your gut is freaking out. Trust your gut.
If your FIL doesn’t want you to think he fantasises about ten year olds having sex, he shouldn’t have shared his writings about ten year olds having sex. It’s literally there in black and white.
posted by Jubey at 11:27 PM on September 27, 2021
If he had given you a heads up and expressed any kind of awareness at all about the content of the book to you, parents of children the same age, I might, MIGHT! have given him the benefit of the doubt but he didn’t so I think he was just quietly waiting to see if you’d react.
Of course, the natural comeback to all of this is that it’s a book and writers can write about whatever without it being true and blah blah blah. Well, I’m actually a writer. And a mother of kids the same age. People here are telling you to say nothing and be vigilant. I’m telling you to be very blunt, tell him he’s on notice, tell everyone else and to hell with the consequences and never let your kids out of sight around him. Your gut is freaking out. Trust your gut.
If your FIL doesn’t want you to think he fantasises about ten year olds having sex, he shouldn’t have shared his writings about ten year olds having sex. It’s literally there in black and white.
posted by Jubey at 11:27 PM on September 27, 2021
Nthing all the don't leave your kids alone with this guy advice. Your FiL lost the benefit of the doubt just by asking you to read his writing.
posted by kingless at 5:31 AM on September 28, 2021
posted by kingless at 5:31 AM on September 28, 2021
Make sure the parents of all children in your family know about this as well. Both sexes but especially girls.
posted by nouvelle-personne at 6:49 AM on September 28, 2021
posted by nouvelle-personne at 6:49 AM on September 28, 2021
To me it sounds like he is struggling, that he may have desires he is troubled by, and he needs help. And the only way he's able to talk about this is by writing - and by sharing this, he may be trying to tell you something as an oblique way of reaching out for help. I also think you should be very, very wary - definitely do not leave your kids alone with him. There are therapy programs for people with such desires, he may be able to get treatment if he's willing. But your job is to keep the kids safe.
posted by epanalepsis at 7:40 AM on September 28, 2021
posted by epanalepsis at 7:40 AM on September 28, 2021
I would also not let him be around the kids alone. Like, could he have made it more obvious that he's writing about your kids? Two ten year old girls, do they look / act / talk like your kids? This could be above-board, but - it's normal for people with inappropriate interests in children to check out the boundaries of the adults in their lives to see what they can likely get away with, what they can push. To me this reads like that. I'd personally start by talking to everyone else around about him giving you this story for "critique" and getting a feel for what impressions other people have and go from there.
I'll also note that I work with convicted sex offenders and the ones who get away with it for longer are people who don't raise obvious alarm bells: they're kind and helpful, not obvious creeps driving around in a van with the windows painted out.
posted by bile and syntax at 8:30 AM on September 28, 2021
I'll also note that I work with convicted sex offenders and the ones who get away with it for longer are people who don't raise obvious alarm bells: they're kind and helpful, not obvious creeps driving around in a van with the windows painted out.
posted by bile and syntax at 8:30 AM on September 28, 2021
Objectifying children and women and trying to pass it off as art is complete bullshit and something women have been expected to put up with because the artist (probably a man) is "intelligent" or "avant garde" or "provocative" or whatever. That needs to stop. There's no reason for such material to exist if it doesn't exist to explore the impact on the victim and show sexual abuse, early sexualization, etc for the very negative thing it is. Literature would live on without Lolita or Naked Lunch or Grandpa's orgasming fae vs succubus tale.
I would not let your kids be alone with him and I would not discuss it further except to tell him I did not like it because it takes gravity away from abuse. If he wants to write such things to help himself work out whatever he's going through, that's fine, but sharing it with others is a major lack of appropriate boundaries.
posted by WeekendJen at 8:54 AM on September 28, 2021
I would not let your kids be alone with him and I would not discuss it further except to tell him I did not like it because it takes gravity away from abuse. If he wants to write such things to help himself work out whatever he's going through, that's fine, but sharing it with others is a major lack of appropriate boundaries.
posted by WeekendJen at 8:54 AM on September 28, 2021
Addendum: It seems it's actually this: ""I'm worried that my FIL does not understand contemporary norms around discussion of sex around children"
Which still equates to, "all interactions monitored, now, until children can self-monitor, sorry Alan Moore."
posted by firstdaffodils at 2:40 PM on September 28, 2021
Which still equates to, "all interactions monitored, now, until children can self-monitor, sorry Alan Moore."
posted by firstdaffodils at 2:40 PM on September 28, 2021
If I were you, I would be very tempted to respond in short story form.
The short story would be about a pedophile grandfather (who is also a pirate) who has explicit sexual desires towards his 10 year old granddaughters and he also has voyeur (reverse-voyeur?) kinks, so he writes a novel about two sexualized 10 year old girls and gives the novel to his (also a pirate) daughter-in-law to read and critique. The daughter-in-law chops off the pedophile grandpa's balls and forces him to eat one of them. She then feeds the other ball to her parrot. The end.
Give this short story to your father-in-law and ask him to critique it. You know. As a fellow writer. Let him know you expect him to be supportive of your creative endeavors, and that you welcome constructive criticism.
Hell, OP, I will happily ghost-write this short story for you. Just say the word.
posted by MiraK at 7:51 AM on October 1, 2021
The short story would be about a pedophile grandfather (who is also a pirate) who has explicit sexual desires towards his 10 year old granddaughters and he also has voyeur (reverse-voyeur?) kinks, so he writes a novel about two sexualized 10 year old girls and gives the novel to his (also a pirate) daughter-in-law to read and critique. The daughter-in-law chops off the pedophile grandpa's balls and forces him to eat one of them. She then feeds the other ball to her parrot. The end.
Give this short story to your father-in-law and ask him to critique it. You know. As a fellow writer. Let him know you expect him to be supportive of your creative endeavors, and that you welcome constructive criticism.
Hell, OP, I will happily ghost-write this short story for you. Just say the word.
posted by MiraK at 7:51 AM on October 1, 2021
Oh and you should definitely send the short story out to the whole family to read. Tell them your FIL's novel was a creative inspiration for you and you owe him thanks for providing the impetus to write your own fun stories.
posted by MiraK at 8:02 AM on October 1, 2021
posted by MiraK at 8:02 AM on October 1, 2021
This thread is closed to new comments.
Approach the conversation carefully, without talking about your fears relating to your daughters specifically. Try and ask open questions, like "do you understand why I/we might find this a little disturbing?" rather than accusing him. Your partner will probably have to take a lead role in this conversation. It won't be easy, but it can end without conflict or accusation.
I don't know the character of this man, and I can understand why you are concerned. But perhaps he is just out of touch with what he has written in the wider context. Perhaps once you mention it, he can talk through the issues you have and he will agree and understand. If he doesn't, if he reacts badly or defensively, then you might have your answer.
In short: tread very carefully, for now. Don't accuse. Be understanding, before you are critical and demanding. If you can listen and try and understand, and he cannot, then you will know how to proceed. But it is crucial that you are open to his position too. Start there, and try and find a way through this that opens him up to the problem.
Good luck
posted by 0bvious at 11:39 AM on September 27, 2021