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My brother came out. I'm gay too. This is a problem.
May 5, 2010 7:05 PM   Subscribe

My brother just came out to me as being gay. I'm gay too. The problem here is that I'm clueless about how to deal with this. Also, I hate to say it, but my overwhelming feeling right now is sorrow.

I'm using my "real" MeFi name because I think this is that important.

I've talked about my brother before on MeFi (here and here). We have a pretty good relationship, although I live 200+ miles further away than when those posts were written.

Today my brother called me and told me that he had "come out" to my mother and told her (and was now telling me) that he's gay. My mother took it about as well as when I told her (screaming, fighting, threats of damnation and disowning, etc.). My mother is quite religious and views homosexuality as roughly on-par with child molestation or drug abuse. I know full well how hard she is going to be on him.

I guess I'm really surprised at how sad my brother's coming out has made me. I realize that this is probably due to the many unresolved issues that my coming out has created for me. It makes me sad to think of my brother going through all the discrimination, bullying and shit that I've gone through. It makes me so sad, in fact, that I'm finding myself pathetically wishing that he were straight.

The main experience of my "out" life has been one of utter loneliness -- first the rejection that I felt from "normal" society and the subtler but still soul-draining ennui that I found in the mainstream gay male community. I guess you could say that I feel sorry for him because I still feel sorry for myself.

I realize that I'm projecting enormously onto him, and that I shouldn't, but I can really only relate to him through my own experiences. As I've noted before, he's very simple and child-like, and I don't think I'm ready to deal with him as a sexual being yet. To my knowledge, he doesn't even know how to use a condom (he dropped out of high school and got his GED before sex ed, I believe), and I am totally unprepared to have that, or any other talk with him.

It may also complicate matters that he doesn't know I'm gay either. And that I wouldn't even know where to begin telling him that I am.

So, yeah, this is an enormous mess for me. I guess I'm trying to find some direction here, some way out of this. Some way to help him find himself and to deal with this self-loathing that I thought was gone from my life. I'd also like advice from people who have had to give The Sex Talk to their younger siblings in the absence of a parent. Anybody else ever had to mentor a younger sibling who is coming out? Anybody else dealt with self-loathing?

My internet connection is intermittent so I'll leave updates whenever I can. Thanks.
posted by Avenger to Human Relations (24 answers total) 10 users marked this as a favorite
 
Is there a center for LGBT folk (youth or otherwise) where he lives? He can get counseling and sex ed there. It sounds like this might be the trigger you need to hook up with some resources to take care of yourself as well.

I'm sorry this is so hard.
posted by availablelight at 7:14 PM on May 5, 2010 [1 favorite]


It may also complicate matters that he doesn't know I'm gay either.

I'm straight, so what do I know? But this "complication" seems to me to be the crux of your problem. You can not help him find "some way out of this" if you can't be honest to him about your own sexuality. (Not that there is a way out, there's only a way to become comfortable with it.)

If you've come out to your mother, and he has come out to you, why on earth won't you come out to him? I can see no way for either of you to deal with this unless you get over that, be honest with each other anbd share all of the issues that you've described.
posted by beagle at 7:17 PM on May 5, 2010 [11 favorites]


I'm not sure if this is helpful, but I can only imagine that in the long run, it is now (hopefully) more likely that your brother will find someone he loves and who loves him, because he wants to live his life out, as truly is. Even with all the bullshit in the world - including whatever baggage you're working through, and crap he may need to deal with other crappy people in the world - he's also more likely to surround himself with people who are a true community, who also love him for who he his. And that includes you.

He's a brave guy. You sound like a good brother. All the best as you work through this.
posted by anitanita at 7:18 PM on May 5, 2010 [2 favorites]


My heart goes out to you. I'm not gay, but I get a fair ration of shit in my family for not being gender typical enough. (Hey family, if you're reading this, please stop doing that, it makes me really sad. But I'm not able yet to tell you directly enough that this stuff is not cool.)

Have you tried therapy? It helps a lot. Obviously, I have different baggage than you do. But. It is so helpful, to have an impartial third party listen, offer suggestions, and help me reframe some of my thoughts and perspectives. I talk to my therapist about stuff I want to change, and about dealing with things I can't change. And hey, I take medication for depression. You might want to consider that as an additional option for how you feel.

Are you certain that your mother hasn't spilled the beans about your having come out to her? There is some possibility that he knows, and is hoping that you will have some words of wisdom. Or even just some solidarity in "this is hard, but we can get through it."

I was the person that a lot of people came out to when we were younger. The most useful things I could think of to say, and the thing that seemed to help the most were, "I'm here to listen to you whenever you need to talk," and "thanks for trusting me enough to tell me."

Acknowledge to your brother that his sharing this information was a big step. Suggest therapy or counseling, but make sure he understands you're not suggesting some "get straight" regimen, but rather a person who can help him navigate the reactions he has gotten/ will likely get from others. You'll come out to him when you're ready. There needn't be any pressure on you to jump to that step before it's comfortable for you. Congrats on surviving the encounter with your mother, you're a strong person, and you will find the resources to get yourself through this.
posted by bilabial at 7:20 PM on May 5, 2010


Has your brother gotten any help for his mental health issues? It sounds like this is just another thing pointing to his desperate need for social services.
I know it seems overwhelming, but would it be feasible for your brother to come stay with you for a little while? It sounds like he's in a bad situation with your mom for more than a few reasons. It might be good for both of you.
posted by amethysts at 7:21 PM on May 5, 2010


my sibling and i are both gay, we're both out to everyone, and have relied on each other enormously at times -- whether after harassment, heartbreak, family drama, whatever. stuff that the rest of the world doesn't totally get. and we are each other's biggest cheerleaders, too :)

you have an amazing chance here to forge the best kind of ally and friend... good luck, and i'm sending lots of positive wishes your way.
posted by crawfo at 7:34 PM on May 5, 2010 [8 favorites]


Possibly you're being a little hard on yourself, pinning your entire reaction on self-loathing. In my experience, feeling deeply protective of younger siblings and not wanting them to struggle in life is a pretty common human feeling. Keeping track of when you're projecting and what you're projecting, and working to resolve your own issues is going to be important to helping your brother, but some of your reaction may be an immediate protective reaction that will pass as you adjust to the idea. I'm not saying don't seek help for yourself, as well as for your brother. I am saying that it might not help you to be too hard on yourself for your reaction right now.

I also agree that a LGBT center or a health clinic is a good resource for sex ed and counseling. I had to have supplementary sex ed talks with two of my brothers, and well, the awkward was thick, and I'm not sure the message really got through. Helping your brother connect with resources is a completely legitimate way of assisting him.
posted by EvaDestruction at 7:36 PM on May 5, 2010


You feel deeply alone. You are sad because you think your brother will also feel deeply alone. You have not told your brother that, in this way, you two are actually not alone at all.

It seems to me you should tell him. It seems like this will be something that will help both of you.

I know you say you wouldn't know how to begin telling him, but maybe just tell him? "Hey, I thought you should know: I'm gay, too, actually." What do you think would happen if you said that? (Other than, you know, feeling awkward -- just prepare yourself for that.) Maybe right down to begin with all the things that scare you about doing this, or all the responses you think you might get, and then all the ways you can handle these things. Probably, his response to your coming out will be nothing you anticipated (how often do those things that we're so terrified to admit to others end up yielding a response we never would've imagined?), but at least you'll feel prepared to start the conversation. And that's all you really need to do: just start the conversation.
posted by Ms. Saint at 7:40 PM on May 5, 2010 [4 favorites]


I wanted to say first that my heart goes out to you for both you and your brother's situations in life and with your mother. My story is almost completely different, but you asked about siblings giving the younger ones The Talk, and I do have an experience with that I could share.

I am mid-20s, my (twin) sisters are 16 and straight, and both of them recently found themselves in their first relationships. Our family is rather religious but is also rather anti-discussion (about *anything*) and because of this, when I was growing up, I had a lot of ideas of what was "right" and "wrong" with nothing to back them, only the vague idea that this is what both the church and my parents thought.

So over the Christmas break I decided that I was going to take my sisters out for coffee and we were going to have the sex talk, because while I certainly have no problems with their abstinence, I wanted them to know *why* they were staying abstinent until marriage (as I assumed their plans were, and was correct).

It was...well, *I* felt extremely awkward. Picking a crowded Starbucks during the holiday season wasn't exactly ideal either, and obviously things will be much different in your situation. But it ended up turning out really good--no, our parents hadn't said anything to them about sex (since *obviously* since we were nice, good Christians we would never do such a thing...different story though), and they were grateful that I'd brought it up and grateful that I'd offered to be there for them, confidentially, to answer any questions or any concerns that they have.

I guess what I learned, and what I can pass on to you, is to just be there for your brother. Your family is much different than mine but I know that that's the important part in my relationships with my sisters, just being there for them.

I think you should definitely tell him that you're gay too--knowing that you got the same response from your mom might make him feel not so alone, and like he has a partner in this experience.

I often feel like I have no idea how to say things out loud to a person, but I'm better at writing them down. Maybe writing him a letter or an email in which you come out to him and offer moral support would be easier than telling him over the phone or in person. Definitely have that sex talk, though. It will be awkward as hell but it's stuff he needs to know, and coming from someone who is in the same position might make him more receptive to hearing it.
posted by LokiBear at 7:42 PM on May 5, 2010 [1 favorite]


Well, your brother is a troubled soul, and being gay is likely to make his life more challenging--and you're exquisitely attuned to exactly how--so I think it's possible that you can wish for him to be straight without taking that as evidence of self-loathing.

But a few things don't quite add up for me here, and I want to put forward an alternative hypothesis. First, if your mother reacted as you describe, I think the odds are good your brother already knows (or has intuited) that you're gay either directly from her or just from an accretion of clues. Given that he's sexually inexperienced, isolated, socially awkward, and "childlike," is it possible that this is his way of identifying with you and/or reaching out to you, regardless of whatever his orientation turns out to be in the long run? He was trusting you before by sharing the news about the voices in his head, etc.

On the bright side, is this a vehicle to get your mother to reverse her earlier refusal to help him get psychiatric care if he's still hearing voices, fearful that visitors will kill, etc.? Maybe coming out will help him stop self-medicating through alcohol, WOW, etc. with your encouragement.

Oh, and, further conjecturing on no evidence I wonder if your mother's vehemence stems in part from some painful experience involving herself, her family or your father? She's already shown a lot of capacity for denial vis-a-vis your brother's mental health issues and, IIRC, had bad experiences herself.

You are a good brother and a kind man, Avenger.
posted by carmicha at 7:52 PM on May 5, 2010 [1 favorite]


I understand your feelings of loneliness and not wanting your brother to experience that. But as was mentioned above, how wonderful that he is able to come out and be open about who he is! He can now work on becoming an integrated person, where his hopes and dreams align with who he is to the rest of the world.

How wonderful, too, that you can be a support to each other. That's not to say it's goingt o be easy for either of you, but my gosh, I think you might be about to embark upon a fantastic new era in relationship with each other. Being able to understand, support and encourage each other as brothers will be a blessing, I think.

Wishing you and him much joy and courage through the challenges ahead.
posted by darkstar at 7:52 PM on May 5, 2010


*cranks the Daft Punk to energize and encourage you*
posted by darkstar at 7:58 PM on May 5, 2010


No advice to offer, but much support. My friend came out to her very religious family, and it is still a source of pain (especially becuase she'd always striven to be an "ideal" daughter) because they cannot let themselves accept her--their church's beliefs make that impossible, even though they love her. It's always "we love you, but..." and that's as good as it's going to get.

She has coped by building her own "family" outside of the biological one, but there is still pain. I'm sorry you and your brother are also feeling this, and hope you can support each other in building a good life otherwise.
posted by emjaybee at 8:02 PM on May 5, 2010


Frankly your brother seems in much better shape than you are. Be supportive of his decision, and don't project your own problems with being gay. Treat him like a grown up, he has certainly shown the courage to deserve that.

Coming out for me was the greatest liberating experience of my life. Don't assume its any different for him.

I think you should be honest with him and tell him you're also gay. I found it got easier to tell people the more people I told. It begins with, "Well Bro, it turns out I'm also gay...."

If you can't bring yourself to educate him on staying safe, then at least point him to groups that can. I guess my empathy quotient is a little low here, but you are uniquely able to make this a much more positive experience for him that it was for you, so step up, you're his big brother.
posted by Long Way To Go at 8:02 PM on May 5, 2010


Is there any reason why you haven't come out to your brother yet? It sounds like both of you could use some emotional support from the other. If it's within the realm of possibility, make a trip out to see him in person.

I'd also make the (admittedly extreme) suggestion of getting the %#&* out of Texas. With a handful of small exceptions, it's not a welcoming place for gay people.

I'm sorry I don't have any better advice, but I genuinely do wish the both of you the best of luck.

*Hug*
posted by schmod at 8:17 PM on May 5, 2010


Your recap and questions have opened up so many questions for me. First, it is clear by your question and the previous question and comment to which you linked that you feel some sort of obligation to be your brother's protector, mentor, father figure, etc. I am trying to teach my children to be supportive of each other and to help each other, but I stop at the thought that they have an obligation for life to be anything other than a supportive friend/sibling. That does not extend to sex ed, to being a parent to them. Certainly, if he is incapable of functioning you should step in, but otherwise you are perpetuating his reliance on others by doing things for him he should be capable of doing himself.

Second, I would bet big money that if you told your mom and she had the terrible, outrageous, uncalled for reaction you described that in the heat of some moment she told your brother. He knows. His telling you is a way of reaching out to you for support. Take him out to dinner and bond over how your mom freaked when you each told her. Offer your guidance but tell him you are still unsettled on a lot of things yourself.

Third, why have you not told him? I have to say it is odd that your would tell your mother who you know to be 100% unaccepting of homosexuals yet your did not tell your brother with whom you seem to have and want to have a good relationship. It is such a vital part of who you are and you have withheld it. If I were him I would be hurt when you do tell him (do tell him).

Fourth, this should be a wakeup call to yourself. Reading your question again, it is clearly about you not your brother. You have yet to come to terms. I strongly urge you to get help. Maybe even family counseling with your brother.

Fuck the sex talk. How about just having a brother to brother, two people who care about each other and want to support each other who share so many common experiences talk?

Your brother is lucky to have such a supportive brother as you. But, know that you are lucky to have him as he has brought to light unresolved issues in your life. Good luck. Godspeed John Glenn.
posted by JohnnyGunn at 8:44 PM on May 5, 2010 [3 favorites]


Anecdote from a book I read (Other Side of Paradise by Staceyann Chin): In her memoirs, the author talks about realizing she's a lesbian, and wanting to tell her best friend, who is like a sister to her. One day, when Staceyann is about 23 and her best friend, Raquel, is 18 (if I remember correctly), Raquel says to her: "Stacey, I think I'm gay!" Staceyann says, "Raquel, WHAT did you say?" and she eventually says, "That makes two of us on this island!" (Jamaica. Now there's a very unfriendly place to be LGBTQ.) Obviously it won't happen exactly this way with you and your brother, but really, it's going to be ok to tell your brother you're gay. Maybe you feel like there will be expectations for you to know all about the gay experience and bestow your wisdom upon him, and you feel like you'll come up short. Just be honest, and yourself, and don't beat yourself up too hard. And really, love your wonderful gay self, ok? You deserve it. And re: giving the sex talk - have you heard of Scarleteen? You might want to check out some of their resources, or post a question to the message boards - they are AWESOME.
posted by foxjacket at 8:47 PM on May 5, 2010


Do you know about PFLAG? Here is a list of the Texas Chapters. I've heard really good things about them. They could be especially helpful if you are trying to be both parent and sibling to your brother, because they're by nature an inter-generational organization, so I would bet you'd meet people who could give you some advice about both roles.

Also, on preview, I was coming on here to recommend Scarleteen, but I see foxjacket has already beat me to it. They are totally awesome and if you're not comfortable giving your brother The Talk just now, you should send him to that website and they will educate him as much as he wants to be educated. They might also be helpful to you if you're still trying to sort your head out about this stuff. They're very wise and lovely people over in that corner of the internet.
posted by colfax at 9:32 PM on May 5, 2010


For what it's worth, Avenger, my brother was the last person in my family I came out to in my early 20s; I figure it was tougher to share the news with him since he'd "known" me best. So I can empathize, but this is definitely the time to come out to him. Anything less doesn't honor your relationship.

Take him out to dinner and bond over how your mom freaked when you each told her. Offer your guidance but tell him you are still unsettled on a lot of things yourself.

Yes, that. Good advice. Who knows, maybe your brother will end up helping you as much as you help him.
posted by mediareport at 6:33 AM on May 6, 2010


I guess I'm really surprised at how sad my brother's coming out has made me. I realize that this is probably due to the many unresolved issues that my coming out has created for me. It makes me sad to think of my brother going through all the discrimination, bullying and shit that I've gone through. It makes me so sad, in fact, that I'm finding myself pathetically wishing that he were straight.

It is normal to want those we love to have an easy and pleasant life and to worry about them when they decide (or are forced) to step outside the mainstream and have to face hardship, discrimination, bullying, and generalized shit. That sadness is a NORMAL reaction whether your loved one comes out as gay, decides to join the priesthood, gets a Ph.D. in philosophy, moves to a war-torn nation to save the world, or whatever. It's HARD to watch the people we love choose* lives that will involve sorrow and pain and hardship. If people feel sadness over a loved one choosing a job that will involve more difficulty than average, imagine how much more justified you are in feeling sad that someone has realized their sexual orientation, and it is one that, unfortunately, still faces discrimination and worse. That's a terrible thing to know a family member faces, EVEN THOUGH you also face it yourself. It's often much, much easier to cope with something oneself than to watch a loved one cope with the same hurtful thing.

Even the most gay-friendly parents -- even gay parents! -- often feel some initial sadness when their children come out as gay, because they know that child will face a harder life than if they were straight. That sorrow passes, but it is a very normal part of the first reaction, and please don't beat yourself up with guilt over feeling sad for your brother. He's facing something hard, and you feel sad because you love him -- and because you know better than anyone how hard this might be. (Might not, for him. But might.) I think you have ample reason to feel sad. Acknowledge it to yourself, let yourself feel that, realize it's a manifestation of your love for him, and then let it go and release it.

*I know homosexuality isn't a "choice" but I can't think of a better word to encompass all the things I'm talking about.
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 6:53 AM on May 6, 2010 [1 favorite]


The first time I talked to a younger sibling about sex was when my little sister was pretty bummed out about something. She was dealing with some teen angst, and I finally just said to her: "Have you tried masturbating? Because that could be a good way to relax." We were both pretty mortified for about a handful of seconds, and then she said, "Omg I'd die if I didn't masturbate."

I'm gay and I have a younger brother with some serious mental illness problems. We've had to talk a bit about sex stuff - never "insert tab A into slot B" stuff - and he's had his own silly issues with sexuality. (One ongoing source of depression for him is that he isn't gay. He regularly bemoans the fact that he really wants to be gay, but just isn't.) Mostly it's pretty technical stuff that he's confused about or that he's screwing up by letting himself get sucked into the drama surrounding sex. Which isn't good for his mental health.

And I have another sister that I never talked to about sex. She was probably the most limited out of all of us, and she could have really used some wise words. But nobody said things like "Birth Control! Now!" to her, and now she's got two kids that she isn't capable of caring for. I would implore you to speak frankly to your brother about these things, because the stakes are fucking high. You mentioned that he has some serious mental problems that are exacerbated by substance use. That's a dangerous combination in any community, but the gay community particularly. I don't want to put any sort of duty on you that you aren't comfortable with, but you can probably improve his quality of live drastically if you just swallow the discomfort that you're feeling and make sure that he understands how to explore his sexuality in a healthy way while avoiding some of the really dangerous stuff out there.

I'm sorry you're bummed and that you feel rejected by mainstream gay male culture. But honestly, Avenger, most of those guys feel just as rejected. They are just out there trying to feel loved and popular too. They're just doing it in polo shirts and faux hawks. But I have good news for you and for them: the gay community is WAY bigger than Castro Clones. Show up at Pride this year. Claim your rightful place in the gay community, cause you and I belong to it just as much as all the Madonna fans in the world. Pride has become something that I've grown to love - from loathe - because more and more we are all able to be ourselves and that's okay. The wide variation in the gay community is finally being celebrated, and as a result, I finally feel welcome. (Though that doesn't mean I ever feel like I need to spend the night dancing at South Beach. Ever.)

If your brother is in the Houston area, you might let him know about a Facebook group for local "gaymers." They meet up at Coffeegroundz in Midtown on a monthly basis and are a pretty laidback and nerdy group of people who play a variety of video games. If he likes WoW, that might be a way to get him connected to the local gay community in a pretty non-threatening way. I went to high school with someone who regularly attends those meetups, and there was some crossover with a group that did a pediatric cancer fundraiser (all-night gaming marathon) last fall.
posted by greekphilosophy at 10:06 AM on May 6, 2010 [3 favorites]


FWIW, my more or less estranged-since-I-was-an-infant biological father is gay (I didn't find out until high school) and when I called to come out to him I was expecting a point of connection that had been missing. Instead, his response was, "just make sure that you don't ONLY surround yourself with other gay people, we bring out the worst in each other." I'm sure there was more back and forth but, to be honest, that's the only thing that I heard that day.

I later found out (on an attempt to reconnect by visiting him in his city) that he proceeded to hang up the phone and cry for days about my news.

When I came out at age 18 I needed support and was searching for that in places that I thought made the most sense. His response was extremely hurtful to me that day. What I've come to realize in the more than 15 years since then is that his response had almost nothing to do with me. In his case it was about the guilt of hurting my mother, leaving my brother and me, his own self-hate, and unhealthy thoughts about who he was/is.

It has been YEARS since I've felt anything buy joy and comfort to be who I am but what I've come to realize about the statement that my father first made to me is that he is partially correct (let me explain). I have friends who are in happy, loving relationships who still say they would take a pill if it made them straight, friends who attend churches where the message is not only not accepting - but actively preaches against gays, friends who mimic what I consider to be some of the worst, most oppressive parts of (unhealthy) heterosexual relationships, and friends who seem incapable of emotional maturity when it comes to intimate relationships (and who, instead, tend to fill those voids with LOTS of alcohol). In my experience most of the reasons that we "bring out the worst in each other" is because not only do we not have as much support for who we are (at a time when things can be so damn complicated - usually adolescence), we are actually actively bombarded with messages about how AWFUL it is to be who we are - from parents, from political debates, from siblings, from church leaders, from teachers, from stares/comments from passersby, and even from our own gay relatives...

You are in a unique position to change that with your brother but you absolutely have to be okay with yourself first. Be there for him, come out to him, work on your own acceptance of yourself and your brother (therapy?), so that you can both realize that you have each other's support (the value of this should not be underestimated - especially in the face of your mother's avid disapproval) and approach life and relationships in a way that will allow you to bring out the best in yourself, your brother and the others with whom you surround yourself.

I wake up every morning next to the woman who I am giddy to love and those feelings prevail day after day in spite of dealing with the frustrations of a country full of people who have A WHOLE LOT to say about who I wake up next to. It took a lot of hard work and searching for good role models (gay and straight) to get to this place but it's way better than the alternative!

Good luck with your journey and helping your brother on his. It's completely worth the work.
posted by jasbet07 at 11:34 AM on May 6, 2010 [1 favorite]


Thanks to everybody who posted and memailed privately. Theres a lot of good advice all around but more than anything I see the necessity of coming clean with my brother. I'll keep you all updated. Again, thanks.
posted by Avenger at 6:24 PM on May 6, 2010 [1 favorite]


Holy crap. How could I forget?! Possibly the best resource for alienated queers everywhere!!

Have you seen "I'm from Driftwood?" It is "stories by gay folks from all over."

Nathan Manske - a Texas boy himself, total nerd and supremely nice guy - found himself unemployed and deeply moved by something he saw in the movie "Milk." Harvey's origins (someone whose home-but-not-origin was San Francisco) spoke to Nathan and he realized that we come from all over. We have big city stories and small town stories. Nathan is from Driftwood, TX which I'm pretty sure is an intersection somewhere out in the middle of nowhere.

IFD collects and then posts stories about first loves, old loves, coming out, rejection, harassment, advocacy, acceptance, humiliation, religion, pets, tolerance... You name it. There's a video posted of me telling about the time my parents protected me (a femmy litle fourth grader who announced he wanted to invite a boy from karate "on a picnic") from potential harassment and rejection and taunting by casually forgetting to give the kid my florid love note.

Both you and your brother might find some comfort in that site. I helped me even years after I had left my hometown. I just remember growing up here thinking "I am the only fag on this entire goddamned island." Little did I know, I grew up in one of the gayest small town in the country.

But the site hasn't helped me just get over feeling so GEOGRAPHICALLY alone. It has helped me get over feeling so culturally alone. It's nice to know that there are plenty of gay geeks out there.

Anyway. I'm from Galveston.
posted by greekphilosophy at 9:23 PM on May 6, 2010


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