I want our 12-year-old daughter vaccinated. Our wife does not.
September 15, 2021 8:34 PM Subscribe
I want our 12-year-old daughter (Ontario, Canada-based) vaccinated. My wife does not. We are at an impasse, and I would appreciate some advice.
I am completely torn up, and have been for several months, about the fact that my wife and I (both fully vaccinated ourselves) are in complete disagreement over having our child vaccinated.
Dad (me): wants her to be safe, wants her to get vaccinated, and I believe it's our civic duty to keep both her and the community at large safe.
Mom: unfortunate victim of the Internet and misinformation (some valid arguments, some far from it), concerned about long-term side effects, doesn't want her to get the shot.
Our daughter turns 12 in October and just started middle school. She is happy, healthy, and thrilled to be back in the classroom, meeting new people and developing into a wonderful young woman. Aside from not wanting her to catch Covid, I also do not want more of my child's life thrown into tumult by this, particularly at this sensitive age, forced back to online school, and, with passports looming here in Ontario, unable to do anything but go grocery shopping with Mom and Dad once she turns 12.
I don't know what to do. I've tried EVERYTHING to convince my spouse, from civil conversations, to sharing information, to doctor's consultations, to all out screaming matches. I am at my wit's end.
Our daughter also wants her shot and is obviously upset by what she can tell are conflicting opinions between her parents.
What are my options here? I am loathe to go behind my wife's back and keep this a "secret" between my daughter and I. It will come to light eventually, particularly when the passports are introduced.
Many sleepless nights have led me here, terrified of both the potential ramifications of not doing right by my child, but blatantly disregarding my wife's wishes.
Any advice would be appreciated. I want my daughter vaccinated.
I am completely torn up, and have been for several months, about the fact that my wife and I (both fully vaccinated ourselves) are in complete disagreement over having our child vaccinated.
Dad (me): wants her to be safe, wants her to get vaccinated, and I believe it's our civic duty to keep both her and the community at large safe.
Mom: unfortunate victim of the Internet and misinformation (some valid arguments, some far from it), concerned about long-term side effects, doesn't want her to get the shot.
Our daughter turns 12 in October and just started middle school. She is happy, healthy, and thrilled to be back in the classroom, meeting new people and developing into a wonderful young woman. Aside from not wanting her to catch Covid, I also do not want more of my child's life thrown into tumult by this, particularly at this sensitive age, forced back to online school, and, with passports looming here in Ontario, unable to do anything but go grocery shopping with Mom and Dad once she turns 12.
I don't know what to do. I've tried EVERYTHING to convince my spouse, from civil conversations, to sharing information, to doctor's consultations, to all out screaming matches. I am at my wit's end.
Our daughter also wants her shot and is obviously upset by what she can tell are conflicting opinions between her parents.
What are my options here? I am loathe to go behind my wife's back and keep this a "secret" between my daughter and I. It will come to light eventually, particularly when the passports are introduced.
Many sleepless nights have led me here, terrified of both the potential ramifications of not doing right by my child, but blatantly disregarding my wife's wishes.
Any advice would be appreciated. I want my daughter vaccinated.
I was you and my husband your wife. We didn’t scream but there were many discussions. Daughter got her first dose a couple weeks ago. The deciding factor was letting our daughter talk to the doctor and then decide for herself. I’m not sure my husband is very happy about it, but we are both vaccinated and the doctor explained why his biggest concern (fertility related) was not valid.
This is hard. You’re not alone. I know that doesn’t really help. :(
posted by dpx.mfx at 9:00 PM on September 15, 2021 [32 favorites]
This is hard. You’re not alone. I know that doesn’t really help. :(
posted by dpx.mfx at 9:00 PM on September 15, 2021 [32 favorites]
Oof. That sounds really tough! We're in a similar yet different boat with my in-laws- just recently my MIL asked us if we would be open to sharing what we know about vaccines with my pretty much anti-vax FIL, who has agreed to listen. Nerve wracking!
Here are some resources I'm looking at about talking about Vaccination with others.
How to Talk to Vaccine Hesitant Parents (covid jab) - pitched when older Australians were the only ones eligible. [The ABC]
Four Ways to Talk with vaccine skeptics - mostly outside your immediate relationship but maybe a little useful. [The Conversation]
Spell out personal rather than collective benefits to persuade people (new research) [The Conversation] (maybe your wife wouldn't want your daughter bringing home covid that you might catch as a break through infection?)
I'm also planning to go in to explaining that misinformation/disinformation can start with a kernel of truth! (example- It is true that there are some menstruation related side effects that haven't been fully researched, it is true that overall the medical world can pay less attention to "people who have/had uteruses health". But it also doesn't mean there is a major issue - they were looking for those!)
posted by freethefeet at 9:06 PM on September 15, 2021 [1 favorite]
Here are some resources I'm looking at about talking about Vaccination with others.
How to Talk to Vaccine Hesitant Parents (covid jab) - pitched when older Australians were the only ones eligible. [The ABC]
Four Ways to Talk with vaccine skeptics - mostly outside your immediate relationship but maybe a little useful. [The Conversation]
Spell out personal rather than collective benefits to persuade people (new research) [The Conversation] (maybe your wife wouldn't want your daughter bringing home covid that you might catch as a break through infection?)
I'm also planning to go in to explaining that misinformation/disinformation can start with a kernel of truth! (example- It is true that there are some menstruation related side effects that haven't been fully researched, it is true that overall the medical world can pay less attention to "people who have/had uteruses health". But it also doesn't mean there is a major issue - they were looking for those!)
posted by freethefeet at 9:06 PM on September 15, 2021 [1 favorite]
The deciding factor here has to be that the kid wants the shot. Help her get it.
posted by BlahLaLa at 9:07 PM on September 15, 2021 [88 favorites]
posted by BlahLaLa at 9:07 PM on September 15, 2021 [88 favorites]
Does it have to be a secret? She wants it & you’re her parent; take her and be open about it after the fact. It sounds like the fighting isn’t going to die down on its own while you’re still actively discussing it; maybe after it’s a fait accompli it will eventually die down.
posted by needs more cowbell at 9:24 PM on September 15, 2021 [18 favorites]
posted by needs more cowbell at 9:24 PM on September 15, 2021 [18 favorites]
I would pitch it as a chance for your daughter to exercise her developing autonomy as a young woman. It's important for her to really start learning to make her own decisions about her body.
Also, what Ben Franklin said:
Also, what Ben Franklin said:
In 1736 I lost one of my sons, a fine boy of four years old, by the smallpox taken in the common way. I long regretted bitterly and still regret that I had not given it to him by inoculation. This I mention for the sake of the parents who omit that operation, on the supposition that they should never forgive themselves if a child died under it; my example showing that the regret may be the same either way, and that, therefore, the safer should be chosen.posted by praemunire at 9:31 PM on September 15, 2021 [83 favorites]
I am a very very big believer in honesty and discussion in relationships but this is an exception. Daughter wants the shot and you know what's right. Is there an ally you can recruit like grandma or something to just take her?
posted by latkes at 9:36 PM on September 15, 2021
posted by latkes at 9:36 PM on September 15, 2021
I'd be loathe to get your daughter up in the middle of this when emotions are so high, but she's not a tiny child and her opinion about what she wants to do with her own body is valid here and, as parents, reinforcing her bodily autonomy is important. There is reason to be cautious, this is a new frontier and we just don't know what'll happen down the line with this type of vaccine, but many reasonable, informed, and cautious people have decided to go forward with it due to its significant, life-preserving protections and your daughter's input is important here. She's entered an age where she has a more sophisticated understanding of the world and while she's still a child, she's an older child whose values and opinions shouldn't be ignored, even when decisions are complicated. I hope that your wife sees that clearly and respects it and affirms it and won't take her daughter's differing decision as a personal attack or betrayal. If she does, it's time to go to counseling.
posted by quince at 9:49 PM on September 15, 2021 [8 favorites]
posted by quince at 9:49 PM on September 15, 2021 [8 favorites]
If you think your wife's concerns about long term side effects are good faith (and it's a reasonable thing to be concerned about, so sure!) then you may find this article helpful: "Concerns about long-term side effects have helped fuel vaccine hesitancy. An immunologist explains why we can be confident in long-term safety."
posted by caek at 9:58 PM on September 15, 2021 [20 favorites]
posted by caek at 9:58 PM on September 15, 2021 [20 favorites]
Wait wait - just having the daughter get the vaccination, or getting Grandma to do it, or whatever -- that's going to protect the daughter's health, yes, and I totally agree that the daughter should probably get the vaccination somehow, but you guys you guys -- can't we think a _little_ more deeply, widely, creatively about this?
Saving the relationship with the man's wife, and the daughter's mother, and the whole atmosphere of trust and, well, _agency_ of the mom for the remainder of everyone's lifespan is worth a little more thought than I see here so far.
I've tried EVERYTHING to convince my spouse, from civil conversations, to sharing information, to doctor's consultations, to all out screaming matches.
You have not tried everything. I'm going to brainstorm a bit here, but you should look at articles about how other people have changed their minds -- research the heck out of this -- and think creatively yourself.
1 - Does anyone else your wife respects and trusts agree with you and have a gift for talking to her? Recruit them.
2 - Do you have any connections with anyone whose child has gotten sick with a preventable illness? Or who has had any kind of experience that would cause them to open up about the sorrow they've felt about something like this? Personal stories from trusted people are effective persuasion strategies.
3 - Whatever erroneous information she has, you can't just debunk it by sending her links that say things you already agree with and know, or any random article that promises to debunk the problematic information. You need -- or someone -- needs to find the _most successful_ approaches for whatever is causing these ideas to connect with the specific person of your wife. So, get inside her head as much as you can, really understand her fears -- real fears based probably on logical thinking but skewed by something away from your beliefs -- and then research those particular aspects, think it through and get help if you can, and proceed strategically.
This is a very serious issue and goes to the core of a lot of important aspects of your relationship, so it's worth bringing in as much help and as much of other peoples' experiences, writing, research, and skill as you can muster.
Yes, I would also think that joint counseling with the smartest counselor you can find is a rational response.
Good luck to you. I'd totally expect you to post some more specific aspects of this as additional Metafilter questions.
posted by amtho at 10:00 PM on September 15, 2021 [20 favorites]
Saving the relationship with the man's wife, and the daughter's mother, and the whole atmosphere of trust and, well, _agency_ of the mom for the remainder of everyone's lifespan is worth a little more thought than I see here so far.
I've tried EVERYTHING to convince my spouse, from civil conversations, to sharing information, to doctor's consultations, to all out screaming matches.
You have not tried everything. I'm going to brainstorm a bit here, but you should look at articles about how other people have changed their minds -- research the heck out of this -- and think creatively yourself.
1 - Does anyone else your wife respects and trusts agree with you and have a gift for talking to her? Recruit them.
2 - Do you have any connections with anyone whose child has gotten sick with a preventable illness? Or who has had any kind of experience that would cause them to open up about the sorrow they've felt about something like this? Personal stories from trusted people are effective persuasion strategies.
3 - Whatever erroneous information she has, you can't just debunk it by sending her links that say things you already agree with and know, or any random article that promises to debunk the problematic information. You need -- or someone -- needs to find the _most successful_ approaches for whatever is causing these ideas to connect with the specific person of your wife. So, get inside her head as much as you can, really understand her fears -- real fears based probably on logical thinking but skewed by something away from your beliefs -- and then research those particular aspects, think it through and get help if you can, and proceed strategically.
This is a very serious issue and goes to the core of a lot of important aspects of your relationship, so it's worth bringing in as much help and as much of other peoples' experiences, writing, research, and skill as you can muster.
Yes, I would also think that joint counseling with the smartest counselor you can find is a rational response.
Good luck to you. I'd totally expect you to post some more specific aspects of this as additional Metafilter questions.
posted by amtho at 10:00 PM on September 15, 2021 [20 favorites]
I think it's your parental responsibility to help your daughter get vaccinated. Your wife shouldn't have the right to prevent her from getting important medical care.
Does this tell you how to handle the situation with your wife? No. But I don't think your wife's wishes about this matter for the actual decision. Your daughter has a right to get vaccinated if she wants to; parents shouldn't have the right to veto their children's access to standard medical care, even though they legally do in many places.
posted by Kutsuwamushi at 10:19 PM on September 15, 2021 [22 favorites]
Does this tell you how to handle the situation with your wife? No. But I don't think your wife's wishes about this matter for the actual decision. Your daughter has a right to get vaccinated if she wants to; parents shouldn't have the right to veto their children's access to standard medical care, even though they legally do in many places.
posted by Kutsuwamushi at 10:19 PM on September 15, 2021 [22 favorites]
No Vax
Best Case Scenario: Child is lucky, either doesn't get Covid or gets a mild case.
Worst Case Scenario: is well-documented. It's not common for kids to get a severe case of Covid, but it happens, and can be fatal, very rarely. Examples are easy to find from reliable sources.
Vax
Best Case Scenario: Child is is well-protected from Covid. Breakthrough cases rare, adverse effects very rare.
Worst Case Scenario: Anti-vaxxers claim that there are injuries, but no one has seen credible details, just wild claims on unreliable sites. A day of flu-like symptoms following Jabs 2 and maybe 1.
Sympathize with the very genuine fear of harm. It's okay if your child isn't vaxxed the day she's eligible. But keep calm steady pressure that the proponents of vaccination are very well educated in public health, viruses, etc, have nothing to gain, and care deeply about public health. In Maine, our CDC head is great at being calm and knowledgeable and has been a big help. Identify people like that where you are. Ask good questions. What specific results scare you?How would you feel if she didn't get the vax and got quite ill from Covid? This must be so hard. Try to be calm and consistent and unwavering. Decide if you would ask a judge to order the vax; no idea how that works in Canada, but worth finding out if you feel strongly.
posted by theora55 at 10:24 PM on September 15, 2021 [7 favorites]
Best Case Scenario: Child is lucky, either doesn't get Covid or gets a mild case.
Worst Case Scenario: is well-documented. It's not common for kids to get a severe case of Covid, but it happens, and can be fatal, very rarely. Examples are easy to find from reliable sources.
Vax
Best Case Scenario: Child is is well-protected from Covid. Breakthrough cases rare, adverse effects very rare.
Worst Case Scenario: Anti-vaxxers claim that there are injuries, but no one has seen credible details, just wild claims on unreliable sites. A day of flu-like symptoms following Jabs 2 and maybe 1.
Sympathize with the very genuine fear of harm. It's okay if your child isn't vaxxed the day she's eligible. But keep calm steady pressure that the proponents of vaccination are very well educated in public health, viruses, etc, have nothing to gain, and care deeply about public health. In Maine, our CDC head is great at being calm and knowledgeable and has been a big help. Identify people like that where you are. Ask good questions. What specific results scare you?How would you feel if she didn't get the vax and got quite ill from Covid? This must be so hard. Try to be calm and consistent and unwavering. Decide if you would ask a judge to order the vax; no idea how that works in Canada, but worth finding out if you feel strongly.
posted by theora55 at 10:24 PM on September 15, 2021 [7 favorites]
_agency_ of the mom
The mother's 'agency' is negative. She wants to stop another person (daughter) from having agency. No body is impacting the mother's agency in any way except her ability for her to veto another person's agency.
She needs to provide science-based information as to why she doesn't want her daughter to be vaccinated against covid. She also needs to think deeply and discuss how she would feel if her unvaccinated daughter contracted long covid which would probably impact her schooling and adult future in significant ways. Would she be OK with her daughter hating on her for allowing, nay facilitating her to catch a debilitating disease? Ask what magic she has to stop her daughter, your daughter, getting seriously ill, or worse. Can she actually face the reality of her choice?
posted by Thella at 11:05 PM on September 15, 2021 [42 favorites]
The mother's 'agency' is negative. She wants to stop another person (daughter) from having agency. No body is impacting the mother's agency in any way except her ability for her to veto another person's agency.
She needs to provide science-based information as to why she doesn't want her daughter to be vaccinated against covid. She also needs to think deeply and discuss how she would feel if her unvaccinated daughter contracted long covid which would probably impact her schooling and adult future in significant ways. Would she be OK with her daughter hating on her for allowing, nay facilitating her to catch a debilitating disease? Ask what magic she has to stop her daughter, your daughter, getting seriously ill, or worse. Can she actually face the reality of her choice?
posted by Thella at 11:05 PM on September 15, 2021 [42 favorites]
Sometimes, when it’s about anxiety, running through an absurdly worst case scenario with a trusted person can really help. Both to reframe the anxiety and to reinforce the idea that help is available. Typically this would be done with a counselor or therapist but maybe you could walk your wife through things one more time.
What’s the worst thing that could happen if your daughter got vaccinated? She becomes somehow infertile in the long run? Okay, so if she decides as an adult to have kids, your family can support surrogacy, adoption, or caring for step kids, because you love her. Maybe the anxiety is she will have some kind of long term disability. Nearly the same thing - you will continue to support her and care for her and look for opportunities for her to thrive as best she is able. If the anxiety is that she might die, we’ll, statistically the chances of that are vastly increased by not getting vaccinated. But I suspect your wife understands that and it’s displaced stress and the pressure of everything that’s making it difficult to see.
What’s going on in the rest of your lives? Why would this be the thing she digs her heels in on? Can you work with her to address other problems? Maybe if some of the other things are helped with, she will gain the mental space to reconsider her (poor) opinion about your daughter’s healthcare needs. Or maybe she will be open to conversations with a trusted friend, or listening to your daughter’s wishes, instead of shutting it down.
If she has otherwise been pro vaccine and trustful of the scientific method and listening to experts in their given field, I would suspect this is really about something else. If she has fallen into the conspiracy rabbit hole it’s going to be hard to pull her back, but it might be worth it to your family. If she needs help with other things in her life, this could be a good chance to work on communicating needs and asking for help from friends. And if this is an aspect of her mental wellness gone awry, it’s better to lay the foundations for therapy and a supportive family structure as soon as can be managed.
posted by Mizu at 11:06 PM on September 15, 2021 [4 favorites]
What’s the worst thing that could happen if your daughter got vaccinated? She becomes somehow infertile in the long run? Okay, so if she decides as an adult to have kids, your family can support surrogacy, adoption, or caring for step kids, because you love her. Maybe the anxiety is she will have some kind of long term disability. Nearly the same thing - you will continue to support her and care for her and look for opportunities for her to thrive as best she is able. If the anxiety is that she might die, we’ll, statistically the chances of that are vastly increased by not getting vaccinated. But I suspect your wife understands that and it’s displaced stress and the pressure of everything that’s making it difficult to see.
What’s going on in the rest of your lives? Why would this be the thing she digs her heels in on? Can you work with her to address other problems? Maybe if some of the other things are helped with, she will gain the mental space to reconsider her (poor) opinion about your daughter’s healthcare needs. Or maybe she will be open to conversations with a trusted friend, or listening to your daughter’s wishes, instead of shutting it down.
If she has otherwise been pro vaccine and trustful of the scientific method and listening to experts in their given field, I would suspect this is really about something else. If she has fallen into the conspiracy rabbit hole it’s going to be hard to pull her back, but it might be worth it to your family. If she needs help with other things in her life, this could be a good chance to work on communicating needs and asking for help from friends. And if this is an aspect of her mental wellness gone awry, it’s better to lay the foundations for therapy and a supportive family structure as soon as can be managed.
posted by Mizu at 11:06 PM on September 15, 2021 [4 favorites]
If your daughter wants vaccination then I would simply take her. I would also be looking into a lawyer to gain full custody as her mother seems to be actively working against the best interests of your daughter's health. Finding out that you're actually on a team of one really sucks, I know, but at least now you know for sure and can knuckle down and get on with the job of parenting.
posted by tillsbury at 11:18 PM on September 15, 2021 [9 favorites]
posted by tillsbury at 11:18 PM on September 15, 2021 [9 favorites]
I'd guess Delta is now dominating Canada too, which means the odds of your daughter getting some form of Covid are a lot higher. This first caught my attention when I read that an unmasked teacher in Marin County (very affluent, in California) infected 27 kids, many too young to currently get vaccinated in the U.S.
Since then (all of two weeks, but it feels longer in pandemic times), I'm reading more and more about unvaccinated kids, especially in our most unvaccinated states, being stricken. As of late July, the Centers for Disease Control started recommending all classrooms require masking to help protect kids under 12, specifically. I don't want to give you a nervous breakdown, but the New York Times has also been reporting that hospitalizations for kids are soaring. Kids can also get Long Covid too.
I'm telling you all this not for your sake, but for your wife's. Like another commentator, I think it's extremely important to keep all of your relationships intact. If multiple sources, like these, don't convince her, however, I think you have to pull out the "this is more important to me" card, even if it's also important to her.
posted by Violet Blue at 11:33 PM on September 15, 2021 [2 favorites]
Since then (all of two weeks, but it feels longer in pandemic times), I'm reading more and more about unvaccinated kids, especially in our most unvaccinated states, being stricken. As of late July, the Centers for Disease Control started recommending all classrooms require masking to help protect kids under 12, specifically. I don't want to give you a nervous breakdown, but the New York Times has also been reporting that hospitalizations for kids are soaring. Kids can also get Long Covid too.
I'm telling you all this not for your sake, but for your wife's. Like another commentator, I think it's extremely important to keep all of your relationships intact. If multiple sources, like these, don't convince her, however, I think you have to pull out the "this is more important to me" card, even if it's also important to her.
posted by Violet Blue at 11:33 PM on September 15, 2021 [2 favorites]
I am loathe to go behind my wife's back and keep this a "secret" between my daughter and I. It will come to light eventually, particularly when the passports are introduced.
By which time it will be a fait accompli and the person who is totally in the wrong here will be completely unable to do anything about it except get cross.
Do it.
posted by flabdablet at 12:17 AM on September 16, 2021 [10 favorites]
By which time it will be a fait accompli and the person who is totally in the wrong here will be completely unable to do anything about it except get cross.
Do it.
posted by flabdablet at 12:17 AM on September 16, 2021 [10 favorites]
Have you asked your wife, "What evidence or information would make you feel comfortable with this and from what source?" She could say, "I don't know," in which you could tell her to take a few days to think about it. When she finally tells you, which if you are kind in your approach, she might, you could then bring that information (which there will be plenty!!) to her. I would do this in two steps: ask her the question tomorrow, bring her the evidence closer to "go" day, so she doesn't have time to change her mind. She could of course pull a, "I just don't want it to happen," in which case you have a strong argument for "you are ridiculous," and can take it into your own hands.
posted by Toddles at 12:26 AM on September 16, 2021 [4 favorites]
posted by Toddles at 12:26 AM on September 16, 2021 [4 favorites]
Many sleepless nights have led me here, terrified of both the potential ramifications of not doing right by my child, but blatantly disregarding my wife's wishes.
One of these things could potentially lead to getting divorced from your wife; one could lead to the death of your child from COVID. I’m sure you don’t want to get divorced, but if I were you, I’d be doing anything in my power to avoid the potentially fatal outcome for my child.
Delta is rampant in Canada now, and sending primarily unvaccinated people to the ICU. Your daughter is lucky enough to be an age where she can be vaccinated, and she WANTS to have that protection. As a parent, you have an obligation to help her get it.
Delta is no joke, it is literally life and death. Your wife is being irresponsible here, and you are going to have to step up and act. When it’s a matter of life and death for your child, your primary obligation is to your child, not your wife. Take your daughter to get vaccinated.
posted by hurdy gurdy girl at 12:42 AM on September 16, 2021 [20 favorites]
One of these things could potentially lead to getting divorced from your wife; one could lead to the death of your child from COVID. I’m sure you don’t want to get divorced, but if I were you, I’d be doing anything in my power to avoid the potentially fatal outcome for my child.
Delta is rampant in Canada now, and sending primarily unvaccinated people to the ICU. Your daughter is lucky enough to be an age where she can be vaccinated, and she WANTS to have that protection. As a parent, you have an obligation to help her get it.
Delta is no joke, it is literally life and death. Your wife is being irresponsible here, and you are going to have to step up and act. When it’s a matter of life and death for your child, your primary obligation is to your child, not your wife. Take your daughter to get vaccinated.
posted by hurdy gurdy girl at 12:42 AM on September 16, 2021 [20 favorites]
It should ultimately be your daughter's decision, not yours or your wife's. It's HER body.
Check your local laws and see if they are appropriately modern in that regard.
Schools, youth organizations, or health departments may even have clinics catering specifically to minors that are old enough in your region to legally make their own medical decisions.
posted by stormyteal at 12:54 AM on September 16, 2021 [4 favorites]
Check your local laws and see if they are appropriately modern in that regard.
Schools, youth organizations, or health departments may even have clinics catering specifically to minors that are old enough in your region to legally make their own medical decisions.
posted by stormyteal at 12:54 AM on September 16, 2021 [4 favorites]
The family law courts in Ontario have been very clear that parents who prevent their children from being vaccinated against Covid can and will lose parenting time and decision-making ability. I know you are still married, but in case she mentions divorce as an ultimatum, the Courts are 100% on your side.
I feel it is unfair to put your daughter in the position of being the one that makes a decision that you know will negatively affect her relationship with her mother (and yes, in Ontario she can be vaxxed without either parent’s permission). I think you have to be the “bad guy” here and simply tell your wife that you are following medical advice and getting your daughter vaccinated and follow through (I assume she was born in 2009, which means she can get the vaccination now and does not need to wait until October).
My ex husband had a lot of irrational/delusional thoughts and beliefs and arguing with him just legitimised his beliefs. Frankly, anyone anti-vax can’t be reasoned with and your circular arguments are just re-inforcing to her that your “sides” are equal - they aren’t. Sorry this puts you in a tough position but your daughter’s health and mental well-being are more important than your wife’s feelings.
posted by saucysault at 1:15 AM on September 16, 2021 [24 favorites]
I feel it is unfair to put your daughter in the position of being the one that makes a decision that you know will negatively affect her relationship with her mother (and yes, in Ontario she can be vaxxed without either parent’s permission). I think you have to be the “bad guy” here and simply tell your wife that you are following medical advice and getting your daughter vaccinated and follow through (I assume she was born in 2009, which means she can get the vaccination now and does not need to wait until October).
My ex husband had a lot of irrational/delusional thoughts and beliefs and arguing with him just legitimised his beliefs. Frankly, anyone anti-vax can’t be reasoned with and your circular arguments are just re-inforcing to her that your “sides” are equal - they aren’t. Sorry this puts you in a tough position but your daughter’s health and mental well-being are more important than your wife’s feelings.
posted by saucysault at 1:15 AM on September 16, 2021 [24 favorites]
Giving 1 million first doses of Pfizer to children leads to:
- 2 covid intensive care admissions prevented
- 87 covid hospital admissions prevented
- but causes 3-17 cases of myocarditis
Giving 1 million second doses of Pfizer to children leads to:
- 0.16 covid intensive care admissions prevented
- 6 covid hospital admissions prevented
- but causes 12-34 cases of myocarditis
Stats source: BBC
Those numbers don't make vaccinating children look like a no-brainer at all, particularly the second dose — and particularly for healthy younger teens. The CDC has taken a very hard line in favour. But plenty of equally-respected, mainstream groups of scientists around the world have looked at the same evidence and disagree with them.
Your wife may have reached her position for very bad reasons. But there's at least a possibility that her position might not actually turn out to be wrong — and, certainly, she's not as "obviously, ludicrously, irresponsibly" wrong as some of the answers in this thread suggest.
posted by Klipspringer at 2:45 AM on September 16, 2021 [32 favorites]
- 2 covid intensive care admissions prevented
- 87 covid hospital admissions prevented
- but causes 3-17 cases of myocarditis
Giving 1 million second doses of Pfizer to children leads to:
- 0.16 covid intensive care admissions prevented
- 6 covid hospital admissions prevented
- but causes 12-34 cases of myocarditis
Stats source: BBC
Those numbers don't make vaccinating children look like a no-brainer at all, particularly the second dose — and particularly for healthy younger teens. The CDC has taken a very hard line in favour. But plenty of equally-respected, mainstream groups of scientists around the world have looked at the same evidence and disagree with them.
Your wife may have reached her position for very bad reasons. But there's at least a possibility that her position might not actually turn out to be wrong — and, certainly, she's not as "obviously, ludicrously, irresponsibly" wrong as some of the answers in this thread suggest.
posted by Klipspringer at 2:45 AM on September 16, 2021 [32 favorites]
I think we all get caught up in the vaccine debate and forget the context here. It's a relationship and agency.
Important missing context - how did you resolve in the past differences in opinion on how to raise your child? Surely there have been things in the past?
Can you reapply and learn from those past disagreements? What tended to work? What didn't?
When someone is as afraid as your wife is of something, I'd try to move at their pace. They'll come around before too long. Have a few gentle conversations about being supportive of their wishes, but firm in your opinion. Maybe endure some hinderence of the kid not being able to go places without us.
At the end of the day, child spread is lower (though slightly higher with Delta) and symptoms are often not strong at all for children. Deaths without existing autoimmune disorders are very rare. This isn't as dire of an issue as it might be.
posted by bbqturtle at 3:24 AM on September 16, 2021 [7 favorites]
Important missing context - how did you resolve in the past differences in opinion on how to raise your child? Surely there have been things in the past?
Can you reapply and learn from those past disagreements? What tended to work? What didn't?
When someone is as afraid as your wife is of something, I'd try to move at their pace. They'll come around before too long. Have a few gentle conversations about being supportive of their wishes, but firm in your opinion. Maybe endure some hinderence of the kid not being able to go places without us.
At the end of the day, child spread is lower (though slightly higher with Delta) and symptoms are often not strong at all for children. Deaths without existing autoimmune disorders are very rare. This isn't as dire of an issue as it might be.
posted by bbqturtle at 3:24 AM on September 16, 2021 [7 favorites]
The daughter wants the vaccine. If she gets covid of any variety after she is eligible, it will affect the daughter’s relationship with each of you for the rest of her life. If she gets an awful case, look up how many marriages survive severe illness and disability of a child. Parents of children with disabilities are getting their kids vaccinated and still wearing masks without complaint. No one wants Covid-19, just like no one wants polio. Not every case resulted in paralysis, such as Frida Kahlo’s before her bus accident.
posted by childofTethys at 3:43 AM on September 16, 2021 [2 favorites]
posted by childofTethys at 3:43 AM on September 16, 2021 [2 favorites]
Klipspringer, vaccinating children against covid is not merely for the child's benefit; it's also to reduce community spread to a more manageable level, and so the kids doesn't pass an asymptomatic infection to a more vulnerable person.
To the bigger point, the only person whose interests matter here is your daughter. She wants an incredibly safe and effective vaccine. It's your responsibility to help her get it, just like if she needed birth control.
But if this antivax stance is out of character for your wife, it's worth investigating why. Fear of infertility, as suggested above? General and unformed anxiety manifested into this one thing she can control (she believes)? Rabbit hole of microchips and govt tracking? Each of those is going to need a different approach.
Try looking up "motivational interviewing techniques." Dr Kimberly Manning at Grady Hospital in Atlanta has some good videos as well, specially aimed at vaccine hesitant.
posted by basalganglia at 3:57 AM on September 16, 2021 [27 favorites]
To the bigger point, the only person whose interests matter here is your daughter. She wants an incredibly safe and effective vaccine. It's your responsibility to help her get it, just like if she needed birth control.
But if this antivax stance is out of character for your wife, it's worth investigating why. Fear of infertility, as suggested above? General and unformed anxiety manifested into this one thing she can control (she believes)? Rabbit hole of microchips and govt tracking? Each of those is going to need a different approach.
Try looking up "motivational interviewing techniques." Dr Kimberly Manning at Grady Hospital in Atlanta has some good videos as well, specially aimed at vaccine hesitant.
posted by basalganglia at 3:57 AM on September 16, 2021 [27 favorites]
If she's concerned about the heart condition, our local policy is now that young people are strongly encouraged to avoid exercise for two weeks post shots as an additional safe guard. Our only case so far was a 16 year old boy who did weight lifting with energy drinks after his shot. You could also request a GP check-up for any post-shot symptoms.
posted by dorothyisunderwood at 3:58 AM on September 16, 2021 [6 favorites]
posted by dorothyisunderwood at 3:58 AM on September 16, 2021 [6 favorites]
Covid is a potentially serious disease, even to a 12 year old, and the vaccines work and are safe. People should get vaccinated. But making a unilateral decision could cause a major rift and loss of trust between you and your wife, and that would also be a big problem that could turn out badly for everyone.
Try to get to the root of your wife's concerns in a gentle way. Talk about the long-term risks of Covid (higher than the vaccine!). Work to solve the problem together.
posted by Urtylug at 4:04 AM on September 16, 2021 [2 favorites]
Try to get to the root of your wife's concerns in a gentle way. Talk about the long-term risks of Covid (higher than the vaccine!). Work to solve the problem together.
posted by Urtylug at 4:04 AM on September 16, 2021 [2 favorites]
Does your wife have friends who have vaccinated children? Does your daughter have vaccinated friends? Or young family members who have been vaccinated, especially women since fertiliy is the chief concern? Peer testimonials seem to be one of the best ways go overcome hesitancy. Peer testimonials are along the lines of "yes we were concerned but the vaccine is safer than COVID and protects our community, she got the shot on days X and Y, had side effects A,B,C."
posted by muddgirl at 4:10 AM on September 16, 2021 [3 favorites]
posted by muddgirl at 4:10 AM on September 16, 2021 [3 favorites]
Klipspringer, vaccinating children against covid is not merely for the child's benefit; it's also to reduce community spread to a more manageable level, and so the kids doesn't pass an asymptomatic infection to a more vulnerable person.
That's true, but there are lots of ethical questions around giving a child a treatment that, based on the stats above for full courses of Pfizer, is potentially a net harm to that child, in order to protect the health of the elderly. Asking a parent to potentially harm their child in order to protect a third party's health is a really big deal and we shouldn't act like it's obviously-right, let alone socially-required. We certainly shouldn't be telling parents to consider "removing custody" from parents who reach a different judgement.
Personally I can see the case for offering teenagers one dose of the vaccine, once you factor in all the social costs and benefits including the impact on children's education of covid outbreaks closing classrooms.
But my point is that this is far from a clear-cut decision, it's a finely-balanced choice that mainstream scientists disagree with each other on — so parents should be having conversations with each other in the context of that uncertainty, not with a spirit of righteous anger and certainty.
posted by Klipspringer at 4:28 AM on September 16, 2021 [26 favorites]
That's true, but there are lots of ethical questions around giving a child a treatment that, based on the stats above for full courses of Pfizer, is potentially a net harm to that child, in order to protect the health of the elderly. Asking a parent to potentially harm their child in order to protect a third party's health is a really big deal and we shouldn't act like it's obviously-right, let alone socially-required. We certainly shouldn't be telling parents to consider "removing custody" from parents who reach a different judgement.
Personally I can see the case for offering teenagers one dose of the vaccine, once you factor in all the social costs and benefits including the impact on children's education of covid outbreaks closing classrooms.
But my point is that this is far from a clear-cut decision, it's a finely-balanced choice that mainstream scientists disagree with each other on — so parents should be having conversations with each other in the context of that uncertainty, not with a spirit of righteous anger and certainty.
posted by Klipspringer at 4:28 AM on September 16, 2021 [26 favorites]
The podcast You Are Not So Smart focuses a lot on how people form and change opinions and recently put out an episode about how to talk to the "vaccine hesitant". I know you've said you've tried everything--but maybe it can offer a few more ideas? Episode here.
posted by Anonymous at 4:37 AM on September 16, 2021
posted by Anonymous at 4:37 AM on September 16, 2021
As others suggested, therapy is likely a good thing to focus on the conflict between you and your wife. As a parent of children when the link between autism and vaccines was being hyped - before being totally debunked - I had quite a bit of fear of vaccines. That, coupled with knowing how companies in the US profit offer public health measures made me skeptical of the vaccine schedule. Today I would be called an anti-vaccer in our heated rhetoric - but I am not. I got my children vaccinated on schedule. (and they are old enough to both have the covid vaccine now). What convinced me to do it is holding onto the belief that we cannot possibly know if our child would be the 1 in a bizallion who has a vaccine related injury (vaccine injury is real - even if not prevalent) but we have to do it anyway. For so many reasons, it is the right thing to do. When we put our children on the school bus, we cannot know with certainty that nothing will harm them, but we do it anyway. Your wife is 100% right, we do not know who may have vaccine related injury because some will - but we have to do it anyway. For me, I take comfort in Buddhist ideas, like Pema Chodron - Being Comfortable with Uncertainty. Consider for a moment how you would feel if you went behind your wife's back and your child did have an averse reaction. Your relationship would probably be harmed beyond repair. I wouldn't do it behind her back. If it were me, I would explore your feelings together (you and your wife) with a therapist/ spiritual leader and emphasize that your daughter is choosing this too. I would express that you are committed to this action irrespective of consequences because you believe (but cannot know with certainty) that is is the right thing to do.
posted by turtlefu at 4:37 AM on September 16, 2021 [6 favorites]
posted by turtlefu at 4:37 AM on September 16, 2021 [6 favorites]
It's interesting to me that you consider getting your daughter vaccinated and trying to hide it as an option, but not getting her vaccinated and being upfront about it. As a way of considering how to maintain your relationship with your wife, you may want to consider why that is... recognizing whether it's due to conflict avoidance, abusive behavior, or something else might help you figure out how best to manage this conversation now and other conflicts in the future.
posted by metasarah at 4:45 AM on September 16, 2021 [13 favorites]
posted by metasarah at 4:45 AM on September 16, 2021 [13 favorites]
Children have rights. Your daughter wants the vaccine. Take her to get it. This is not an ethical gray area.
posted by emd3737 at 4:48 AM on September 16, 2021 [16 favorites]
posted by emd3737 at 4:48 AM on September 16, 2021 [16 favorites]
Don't know if this story would help, I find anecdotes to work well.
I'm a teacher of middle and high school aged kids, and every sudent is vaccinated, including the 12yos. Every. One. Show her examples of parents overwhelmingly making the right choice. There is no vaccine mandate here, in fact our Governor outlawed them in schools. Yet, every parent of our kids individually decided this was the right choice. They made the calculus and one by one every parent chose to vaccinate. Academics, the socializing, caring for the community, and protecting their kids from long term covid effects which we know are real, all outweighed hesitancy for our entire school community. Our enrollment increased! Your wife certainly knows these parents don't love their kids more or less than she loves her daughter, and this is where their love took them, to the vaccine. What logic can she see there? Can she imagine all those parents, some of whom absolutely went through hesitancy and fear, just like her, yet still ended up at the vaccine? What does their journey look like in her mind? Can she put herself in those shoes?
Also I think an upset middle schooler being forced to go online again will probably change your wife's mind for her after a week or two at home again. If it doesn't, I dont think, in the end, her choice outweighs your daughter's bodily autonomy. Why does your wife's opinion veto you and (most importantly) your kid's combined?
Good luck and I hope your 12yo gets to enjoy school safely in person!
posted by wellifyouinsist at 5:06 AM on September 16, 2021 [3 favorites]
I'm a teacher of middle and high school aged kids, and every sudent is vaccinated, including the 12yos. Every. One. Show her examples of parents overwhelmingly making the right choice. There is no vaccine mandate here, in fact our Governor outlawed them in schools. Yet, every parent of our kids individually decided this was the right choice. They made the calculus and one by one every parent chose to vaccinate. Academics, the socializing, caring for the community, and protecting their kids from long term covid effects which we know are real, all outweighed hesitancy for our entire school community. Our enrollment increased! Your wife certainly knows these parents don't love their kids more or less than she loves her daughter, and this is where their love took them, to the vaccine. What logic can she see there? Can she imagine all those parents, some of whom absolutely went through hesitancy and fear, just like her, yet still ended up at the vaccine? What does their journey look like in her mind? Can she put herself in those shoes?
Also I think an upset middle schooler being forced to go online again will probably change your wife's mind for her after a week or two at home again. If it doesn't, I dont think, in the end, her choice outweighs your daughter's bodily autonomy. Why does your wife's opinion veto you and (most importantly) your kid's combined?
Good luck and I hope your 12yo gets to enjoy school safely in person!
posted by wellifyouinsist at 5:06 AM on September 16, 2021 [3 favorites]
Will your daughter miss out on any activities or time with friends by being vaccinated? Does she have friends whose parents only let them visit with other vaccinated kids? Will there be school field trips that are only available to vaccinated children?
Any of those would create some social pressures that could influence your wife. It's not just the risk of Covid. There are other things your daughter could lose.
posted by Winnie the Proust at 5:11 AM on September 16, 2021 [1 favorite]
Any of those would create some social pressures that could influence your wife. It's not just the risk of Covid. There are other things your daughter could lose.
posted by Winnie the Proust at 5:11 AM on September 16, 2021 [1 favorite]
Myocarditis is more common after covid-19 infection than vaccination. That being said, facts are often not convincing to folks in conspiracy theory rabbit holes.
I think it's worth considering the reframing the discussion as "Our little girl, isn't so little anymore. She now has the right to make certain medical decisions for herself. I don't want to put her in a situation where she feels like she needs to go behind our backs. Therefore, I've made made an appointment for her with her pediatrician to discuss the situation." When your wife gets upset, agree that it is really scary entering this new territory with your daughter, but remind your wife that so far both of you have raised her well.
posted by oceano at 5:47 AM on September 16, 2021 [50 favorites]
I think it's worth considering the reframing the discussion as "Our little girl, isn't so little anymore. She now has the right to make certain medical decisions for herself. I don't want to put her in a situation where she feels like she needs to go behind our backs. Therefore, I've made made an appointment for her with her pediatrician to discuss the situation." When your wife gets upset, agree that it is really scary entering this new territory with your daughter, but remind your wife that so far both of you have raised her well.
posted by oceano at 5:47 AM on September 16, 2021 [50 favorites]
Does your daughter have friends/cousins/neighbors who can't get the vaccine because they are under 12 or for other reasons? It's not just about protecting her health, it's about protecting the health of those she comes in contact with. And imagine how she would feel if she passed covid to someone vulnerable who then had a serious - even life-threatening - case.
Probably not a winning argument, but throwing it in anyway.
I'm sorry you're dealing with this, it sounds really scary.
posted by bunderful at 6:00 AM on September 16, 2021
Probably not a winning argument, but throwing it in anyway.
I'm sorry you're dealing with this, it sounds really scary.
posted by bunderful at 6:00 AM on September 16, 2021
Mom: unfortunate victim of the Internet and misinformation (some valid arguments, some far from it)
It might be helpful if you're willing to share which misinformation your wife has bought into - there is, of course, a big difference between thinking the vaccine is a government conspiracy vs. concerns over myocarditis.
posted by coffeecat at 6:01 AM on September 16, 2021 [6 favorites]
It might be helpful if you're willing to share which misinformation your wife has bought into - there is, of course, a big difference between thinking the vaccine is a government conspiracy vs. concerns over myocarditis.
posted by coffeecat at 6:01 AM on September 16, 2021 [6 favorites]
This isn't a moral problem as much as it is a math problem.
At the end of the day, you are balancing the risk of long-haul COVID or death from COVID against the risk of myocaritis. I think this is the meta study the BBC figures came from. Deathrate from COVID in children is 2 per million. Myocarditis following vaccination is 213 per million. But what was news to me is that myocarditis presents as a complication of COVID six times more often than it appears as a complication of the vaccine. Not getting COVID is the best way to avoid getting myocarditis; getting vaccinated is the next best way; and not getting vaccinated is the worst way.
You don't have to go behind your wife's back, and you certainly should not keep it a secret after the fact. The chances of your daughter never screaming that she can make her own choices and she did with the COVID vaccine in a fit of teenage rage are nil. So I'd tell your wife from the car on the way to an appointment, simply on the basis that an object in motion tends to stay in motion and there seems to be the least chance of her de-railing the process.
This may well kill your marriage but so would your daughter dying of COVID.
posted by DarlingBri at 6:16 AM on September 16, 2021 [33 favorites]
At the end of the day, you are balancing the risk of long-haul COVID or death from COVID against the risk of myocaritis. I think this is the meta study the BBC figures came from. Deathrate from COVID in children is 2 per million. Myocarditis following vaccination is 213 per million. But what was news to me is that myocarditis presents as a complication of COVID six times more often than it appears as a complication of the vaccine. Not getting COVID is the best way to avoid getting myocarditis; getting vaccinated is the next best way; and not getting vaccinated is the worst way.
You don't have to go behind your wife's back, and you certainly should not keep it a secret after the fact. The chances of your daughter never screaming that she can make her own choices and she did with the COVID vaccine in a fit of teenage rage are nil. So I'd tell your wife from the car on the way to an appointment, simply on the basis that an object in motion tends to stay in motion and there seems to be the least chance of her de-railing the process.
This may well kill your marriage but so would your daughter dying of COVID.
posted by DarlingBri at 6:16 AM on September 16, 2021 [33 favorites]
I am just a random person on the internet explaining how I would think this through:
You have two goals:
1. let your daughter get vaccinated, probably soon.
2. bring your wife around on this decision.
Ideally, you do both. In case that is not an option, you also need to know which is the priority.
Sounds to me like your priority is #1. That would be mine too.
There is lots of good advice above about how to go about #2.
There are better and worse approaches. There is no technique which is guaranteed to "fix" someone's incorrect opinion on a deadline.
I would therefore make plans for vaccination now, without her. Or at least set (internally) a deadline to do so.
Once done, do you keep plans secret? It doesn't seem necessary. You can make the plans and announce them as a fait accompli. It's then up to your wife to attempt to escalate. Assuming posters above are correct, she will fail. So it is better to be honest and lose her trust on one point (trust in your opinion) rather than two (trust in your opinion and your honesty).
Once done, and until the vaccination is complete... I would, regretfully, stop arguing. "She is getting vaccinated", end of discussion. You could attempt to divide the two issues (is our daughter getting vaccinated, vs., an abstract discussion of whether vaccination of 12-year-old girls is a good idea). I can't imagine that will work.
That will damage your relationship. But it's not giving up, either. She can talk to other people; maybe someone else will help. You, right now, are not in a good position to do so. And it may take longer than you and your daughter are willing to wait.
My sympathies; good luck.
posted by floppyroofing at 6:30 AM on September 16, 2021 [2 favorites]
You have two goals:
1. let your daughter get vaccinated, probably soon.
2. bring your wife around on this decision.
Ideally, you do both. In case that is not an option, you also need to know which is the priority.
Sounds to me like your priority is #1. That would be mine too.
There is lots of good advice above about how to go about #2.
There are better and worse approaches. There is no technique which is guaranteed to "fix" someone's incorrect opinion on a deadline.
I would therefore make plans for vaccination now, without her. Or at least set (internally) a deadline to do so.
Once done, do you keep plans secret? It doesn't seem necessary. You can make the plans and announce them as a fait accompli. It's then up to your wife to attempt to escalate. Assuming posters above are correct, she will fail. So it is better to be honest and lose her trust on one point (trust in your opinion) rather than two (trust in your opinion and your honesty).
Once done, and until the vaccination is complete... I would, regretfully, stop arguing. "She is getting vaccinated", end of discussion. You could attempt to divide the two issues (is our daughter getting vaccinated, vs., an abstract discussion of whether vaccination of 12-year-old girls is a good idea). I can't imagine that will work.
That will damage your relationship. But it's not giving up, either. She can talk to other people; maybe someone else will help. You, right now, are not in a good position to do so. And it may take longer than you and your daughter are willing to wait.
My sympathies; good luck.
posted by floppyroofing at 6:30 AM on September 16, 2021 [2 favorites]
Your daughter wants the vaccine. Help her get it. End of story. Seriously, your wife does not have agency over your daughter's body. The only person who does is your daughter and she wants the vaccine. There is no moral dilemma. Take her to get her vaccine.
posted by cooker girl at 6:52 AM on September 16, 2021 [19 favorites]
posted by cooker girl at 6:52 AM on September 16, 2021 [19 favorites]
Just some anecdata. I took our 12year old son to be vaccinated literally in the first day possibly (we live in Vienna, Austria). He wanted it very much. His dad (also vaccinated) not, as there is the issue of myocarditis in boys especially.
I should add, we separated in 2019, and i have sole custody but in practice we share amicably (except in this issue).
It is now 3 months later, and his dad has come around in his own. What made him change his mind as far as i can tell is that as he talked to his siblings (militant antivaxers) and more deeply read what they sent him, he realised that he was not interested in going down the conspiracy believe path (specifically that vaxxing Kids makes them unfertile to enable the so called population exchange, and also that vaxxed people supposedly turn into bioweapons).
I showed him only the sources of those "theories" and he realised in his own. But he needed space to conclude on his own.
Hoping and wishing you and your daughter the best.
posted by 15L06 at 6:58 AM on September 16, 2021 [5 favorites]
I should add, we separated in 2019, and i have sole custody but in practice we share amicably (except in this issue).
It is now 3 months later, and his dad has come around in his own. What made him change his mind as far as i can tell is that as he talked to his siblings (militant antivaxers) and more deeply read what they sent him, he realised that he was not interested in going down the conspiracy believe path (specifically that vaxxing Kids makes them unfertile to enable the so called population exchange, and also that vaxxed people supposedly turn into bioweapons).
I showed him only the sources of those "theories" and he realised in his own. But he needed space to conclude on his own.
Hoping and wishing you and your daughter the best.
posted by 15L06 at 6:58 AM on September 16, 2021 [5 favorites]
PS Re the myocarditis, after talking to bis pediatrician, i decided we could still go ahead. This is something you might perhaps do all three together, it was helpful to us.
posted by 15L06 at 7:05 AM on September 16, 2021 [1 favorite]
posted by 15L06 at 7:05 AM on September 16, 2021 [1 favorite]
based on the stats above for full courses of Pfizer, is potentially a net harm to that child
People need to stop looking only at the big scary infographics and read the fucking articles.
Relevant quotes:
Incidentally, the chance of the disease causing myocarditis for 12 year old girls is something like twenty-five times that of getting it from two doses of Pfizer vaccine, not six times as for boys, mainly because the vaccine doesn't cause it in anywhere near as many girls. See the second PDF linked above.
Just do what your daughter wants, get her vaxxed, and let the chips fall where they may.
posted by flabdablet at 7:14 AM on September 16, 2021 [47 favorites]
People need to stop looking only at the big scary infographics and read the fucking articles.
Relevant quotes:
For every million Pfizer second doses given to 12-17-year-old-boys, around 60 had the condition (compared with 8 in a million among girls).
A recent US study suggests having Covid-19 could be six times more likely to trigger myocarditis in young men than the vaccine, with a rate of about 450 per million infections.Page 32 of the first PDF linked above presents the following stats for females aged 12-17 years.
Predicted cases prevented vs. myocarditis cases for every million second dose vaccinations over 120 days:The simple fact is that 10 chances in a million is an exceedingly low risk; lower than routinely taken risks such as that of taking serious damage after choosing to get in a car, for example. And vaccinating your daughter is literally a thousand times more likely to stop her getting COVID-19 in every 120 day period going forward than to give her a couple of days with myocarditis. The expected "potentially net harm" is ludicrously small.
8500 COVID-19 cases prevented
183 hospitalizations prevented
38 ICU admissions prevented
1 death prevented
8-10 myocarditis cases
Hospitalizations, ICU admissions and deaths based on data for week of May 22, 2021
Incidentally, the chance of the disease causing myocarditis for 12 year old girls is something like twenty-five times that of getting it from two doses of Pfizer vaccine, not six times as for boys, mainly because the vaccine doesn't cause it in anywhere near as many girls. See the second PDF linked above.
Just do what your daughter wants, get her vaxxed, and let the chips fall where they may.
posted by flabdablet at 7:14 AM on September 16, 2021 [47 favorites]
Klipspringer has it right and I'm aghast at reading the self righteousness in much of the rest of the thread.
With respect, dismissing your wife's view as "the worst case of being vaccinated is a day of flu-like symptoms" (not true) or "your daughter may die of Covid and that will kill your marriage anyway so... just kill it now?" or "a 12 year old has bodily autonomy" (what would everyone here be saying if the daughter was militantly against vaccination?) are not going to help change your wife's mind because they are flawed and intellectually dishonest.
Have a calm discussion with your wife. You're not trying to win an internet argument with your political tribes; you're trying to make a decision about your child's health. This is an opportunity to actually read the science, and think beyond what folks on Twitter and Facebook gab about.
I suspect what your wife is afraid of is the unknown. Conspiracy theorists are whacky, yes, but our governments have not been very transparent, logical, or consistent with their messaging either, so it's natural that some people are afraid that there are side effects that are being brushed under the rug. There hasn't been enough time for the science to collect enough data. Children's bodies -- a 12 year old is a child -- are different from adults and it's ok to acknowledge someone's fear that a vaccine developed for adults may or may not translate perfectly to a child.
posted by redlines at 7:41 AM on September 16, 2021 [23 favorites]
With respect, dismissing your wife's view as "the worst case of being vaccinated is a day of flu-like symptoms" (not true) or "your daughter may die of Covid and that will kill your marriage anyway so... just kill it now?" or "a 12 year old has bodily autonomy" (what would everyone here be saying if the daughter was militantly against vaccination?) are not going to help change your wife's mind because they are flawed and intellectually dishonest.
Have a calm discussion with your wife. You're not trying to win an internet argument with your political tribes; you're trying to make a decision about your child's health. This is an opportunity to actually read the science, and think beyond what folks on Twitter and Facebook gab about.
I suspect what your wife is afraid of is the unknown. Conspiracy theorists are whacky, yes, but our governments have not been very transparent, logical, or consistent with their messaging either, so it's natural that some people are afraid that there are side effects that are being brushed under the rug. There hasn't been enough time for the science to collect enough data. Children's bodies -- a 12 year old is a child -- are different from adults and it's ok to acknowledge someone's fear that a vaccine developed for adults may or may not translate perfectly to a child.
posted by redlines at 7:41 AM on September 16, 2021 [23 favorites]
I keep seeing mention of the rate of myocarditis but none about the consequence of having it. "Inflammation around the heart" is scary-sounding, but myocarditis as a cause of death is exceedingly rare - particularly in youth. In the linked study they found myocarditis to be a cause of death 0.5 times our of 1,000 deaths and the average age in the 40s. Many of those had complicating factors (as opposed to a reaction to an immunization) and more than half get better all by themselves.
posted by phearlez at 7:43 AM on September 16, 2021 [12 favorites]
posted by phearlez at 7:43 AM on September 16, 2021 [12 favorites]
In your locality, your daughter could walk out the door today and choose to get vaccinated. Regardless of people's postings that "she is a child" in this respect, she has choice and autonomy and she has made her decision known.
If your wife feels that your daughter has not considered all the angles, she is certainly entitled to ask that your daughter consider her point of view, but again-- your daughter could walk out the door right now and do as she pleases.
I would propose that a middle way is to set up a consultation with your daughter's doctor to get a neutral third party to give advice. If your daughter still wants to be vaccinated after speaking with her doctor, it is her choice. She should be respected.
This is not walking into traffic. It's choosing whether to get a vaccine backed by over 20 years of study of the relevant technologies.
posted by Medieval Maven at 7:46 AM on September 16, 2021 [5 favorites]
If your wife feels that your daughter has not considered all the angles, she is certainly entitled to ask that your daughter consider her point of view, but again-- your daughter could walk out the door right now and do as she pleases.
I would propose that a middle way is to set up a consultation with your daughter's doctor to get a neutral third party to give advice. If your daughter still wants to be vaccinated after speaking with her doctor, it is her choice. She should be respected.
This is not walking into traffic. It's choosing whether to get a vaccine backed by over 20 years of study of the relevant technologies.
posted by Medieval Maven at 7:46 AM on September 16, 2021 [5 favorites]
A friend's son was hospitalized with myocarditis after his vaccine, I don't take it lightly.
However, almost all myocarditis cases linked to the vaccine are less severe than other forms of myocarditis and they resolve fairly quickly.
posted by mcgsa at 7:47 AM on September 16, 2021 [8 favorites]
However, almost all myocarditis cases linked to the vaccine are less severe than other forms of myocarditis and they resolve fairly quickly.
posted by mcgsa at 7:47 AM on September 16, 2021 [8 favorites]
"a 12 year old has bodily autonomy" (what would everyone here be saying if the daughter was militantly against vaccination?)
A 12-year-old is developing bodily autonomy. There's a big difference between relinquishing the decision entirely to the 12-year-old and taking their wishes into account in making a family decision. With the parents split, consulting the person who will, after all, be the one experiencing the physical consequences of the decision is hardly unreasonable. Indeed I think this is the kind of argument that can have great intuitive appeal--letting her "break the tie."
posted by praemunire at 7:51 AM on September 16, 2021 [7 favorites]
A 12-year-old is developing bodily autonomy. There's a big difference between relinquishing the decision entirely to the 12-year-old and taking their wishes into account in making a family decision. With the parents split, consulting the person who will, after all, be the one experiencing the physical consequences of the decision is hardly unreasonable. Indeed I think this is the kind of argument that can have great intuitive appeal--letting her "break the tie."
posted by praemunire at 7:51 AM on September 16, 2021 [7 favorites]
Show her news stories about the sick kids in Texas and Florida
posted by cotton dress sock at 7:53 AM on September 16, 2021 [1 favorite]
posted by cotton dress sock at 7:53 AM on September 16, 2021 [1 favorite]
I didn't emphasize that a 12 year old is a child to discuss her legal autonomy but to state that children's bodies are biologically different from adults, and it's not stupid or conspiratorial to worry whether the relative benefits/harms of vaccination vs Covid will be different in children than in adults.
The question as I see it is not about autonomy. Because yes, the daughter can get vaccinated if she wants and >99.9999999%, she will be fine. But in the OP's question, I hear a desire to understand his wife's view and get her on board and feeling comfortable with it. If I were the wife (btw, I'm not, and I'm not anti-vax), I'd be worried sick if I found out that my daughter got vaccinated before I had time to think through and discuss it. One may say that's ok, but a big part of OP's question is how not to blatantly disregard his wife's wishes, because his wife is presumably coming from a place of love and concern.
Here's a recent scientific study suggesting that vaccination for 12 year old boys seems to lead to statistically greater harms than getting Covid. Admittedly, they find that girls are less at risk. And that's something the OP and wife should consider!
posted by redlines at 8:06 AM on September 16, 2021 [7 favorites]
The question as I see it is not about autonomy. Because yes, the daughter can get vaccinated if she wants and >99.9999999%, she will be fine. But in the OP's question, I hear a desire to understand his wife's view and get her on board and feeling comfortable with it. If I were the wife (btw, I'm not, and I'm not anti-vax), I'd be worried sick if I found out that my daughter got vaccinated before I had time to think through and discuss it. One may say that's ok, but a big part of OP's question is how not to blatantly disregard his wife's wishes, because his wife is presumably coming from a place of love and concern.
Here's a recent scientific study suggesting that vaccination for 12 year old boys seems to lead to statistically greater harms than getting Covid. Admittedly, they find that girls are less at risk. And that's something the OP and wife should consider!
posted by redlines at 8:06 AM on September 16, 2021 [7 favorites]
Have you and your wife spoken together to your daughter's doctor?
If, as your question suggests, your wife is starting to lean conspiratorial, I don't think this will help unless your daughter's doctor is incredibly charismatic. And there are some doctors (including in Canada, where this stuff has taken a surprising hold) who've completely lost the plot, plus a lot of very wary "I can't make a recommendation/you decide" types, but hopefully you can at least get some kind of positional statement from someone with a more verifiable medical degree than your wife, with a legal record of that conversation in your daughter's medical record if this gets ugly.
From anecdata from r/QAnonCasualties where there's parental disagreement and a child who wishes to be vaccinated, getting it done does sometimes take the wind out of the sails of the protesting parent. These are often much more extreme cases than yours seems to be, where Parent No now has to confront their belief that Child will die in the next 6-12-18-36 months (target keeps moving) and has been rendered infertile (which would only matter assuming they intended to get pregnant in the remaining time before they die?) and is now spreading covid (which doesn't exist) and nanites and stuff. In any case, whatever the severity of their beliefs, once it's a real person and there are real stakes, it becomes harder to pretend that hundreds of thousands of children are dying of vaccines, but only in other places and not your neighborhood/town/anyone you personally know. (But also, a lot of older teens are getting thrown out of their homes/cut off for getting vaccinated, so this is not a foolproof strategy. It's very potentially a marriage-ender at the very least.)
Nobody has come up with a really great strategy for dealing with the completely unfounded versions of vaccine hesitancy, because getting past someone's anxiety response or rage addiction unfortunately requires their cooperation. Most cult and conspiracy experts don't recommend yelling about it, rather coming at it with immense empathy for the person's fears - which are the actual problem - but a firm boundary around not assisting them in obsessing over unreliable information. That's the hard part, the last part, because reliable information has been about as terribly mismanaged as is humanly possible.
Whether the marriage survives this experience - and whether it would have survived any version of this experience - is less clear. It feels like your position at this time is you really want her on board rather than going against her wishes, but the clock is ticking and you will need to decide where your line is. If talking to a doctor doesn't work, do you then try to find a therapist? Do you talk to a lawyer? How hard are you willing to push this? Do you do nothing and hope your daughter doesn't get too sick when she gets COVID unvaccinated, or suffer additional socio-psychological distress from continued isolation, and deal with your feelings at that point? For your own internal misery over this, it can be helpful to at least know what you think your plan is going to be in advance and what you'll do if things get worse and what "worse" would be, to you.
posted by Lyn Never at 8:41 AM on September 16, 2021 [1 favorite]
If, as your question suggests, your wife is starting to lean conspiratorial, I don't think this will help unless your daughter's doctor is incredibly charismatic. And there are some doctors (including in Canada, where this stuff has taken a surprising hold) who've completely lost the plot, plus a lot of very wary "I can't make a recommendation/you decide" types, but hopefully you can at least get some kind of positional statement from someone with a more verifiable medical degree than your wife, with a legal record of that conversation in your daughter's medical record if this gets ugly.
From anecdata from r/QAnonCasualties where there's parental disagreement and a child who wishes to be vaccinated, getting it done does sometimes take the wind out of the sails of the protesting parent. These are often much more extreme cases than yours seems to be, where Parent No now has to confront their belief that Child will die in the next 6-12-18-36 months (target keeps moving) and has been rendered infertile (which would only matter assuming they intended to get pregnant in the remaining time before they die?) and is now spreading covid (which doesn't exist) and nanites and stuff. In any case, whatever the severity of their beliefs, once it's a real person and there are real stakes, it becomes harder to pretend that hundreds of thousands of children are dying of vaccines, but only in other places and not your neighborhood/town/anyone you personally know. (But also, a lot of older teens are getting thrown out of their homes/cut off for getting vaccinated, so this is not a foolproof strategy. It's very potentially a marriage-ender at the very least.)
Nobody has come up with a really great strategy for dealing with the completely unfounded versions of vaccine hesitancy, because getting past someone's anxiety response or rage addiction unfortunately requires their cooperation. Most cult and conspiracy experts don't recommend yelling about it, rather coming at it with immense empathy for the person's fears - which are the actual problem - but a firm boundary around not assisting them in obsessing over unreliable information. That's the hard part, the last part, because reliable information has been about as terribly mismanaged as is humanly possible.
Whether the marriage survives this experience - and whether it would have survived any version of this experience - is less clear. It feels like your position at this time is you really want her on board rather than going against her wishes, but the clock is ticking and you will need to decide where your line is. If talking to a doctor doesn't work, do you then try to find a therapist? Do you talk to a lawyer? How hard are you willing to push this? Do you do nothing and hope your daughter doesn't get too sick when she gets COVID unvaccinated, or suffer additional socio-psychological distress from continued isolation, and deal with your feelings at that point? For your own internal misery over this, it can be helpful to at least know what you think your plan is going to be in advance and what you'll do if things get worse and what "worse" would be, to you.
posted by Lyn Never at 8:41 AM on September 16, 2021 [1 favorite]
redlines, the study you link says in the headline that "Boys are more at risk of myocarditis after vaccination than of hospital admission for covid". This is comparing apples to oranges.
Myocarditis can vary in severity. It says right there in the article that 86% of affected boys needed some form of hospital care and that most cases were mild.
On the other hand, if you have to be admitted to hospital because of suffering from Covid-19, it is probably safe to say that you have a severe case of Covid-19, which can have all kinds of symptoms and associated medical problems.
The article doesn't say anything about the outcome in either case - not whether the myocarditis cases heal completely, and neither if the hospital cases heal completely without any long-term consequences. So I'm not sure what the authors are trying to say here, but I don't read this as stating that the vaccine leads to "statistically greater harms than getting Covid".
I think it makes much more sense for the family to consult a doctor they trust than to try to read and interpret scientific studies - unless they're both working in the medical field, maybe.
(Last but not least, the article isn't peer-reviewed yet, so take it with a big grain of salt until it is.)
posted by amf at 8:42 AM on September 16, 2021 [13 favorites]
Myocarditis can vary in severity. It says right there in the article that 86% of affected boys needed some form of hospital care and that most cases were mild.
On the other hand, if you have to be admitted to hospital because of suffering from Covid-19, it is probably safe to say that you have a severe case of Covid-19, which can have all kinds of symptoms and associated medical problems.
The article doesn't say anything about the outcome in either case - not whether the myocarditis cases heal completely, and neither if the hospital cases heal completely without any long-term consequences. So I'm not sure what the authors are trying to say here, but I don't read this as stating that the vaccine leads to "statistically greater harms than getting Covid".
I think it makes much more sense for the family to consult a doctor they trust than to try to read and interpret scientific studies - unless they're both working in the medical field, maybe.
(Last but not least, the article isn't peer-reviewed yet, so take it with a big grain of salt until it is.)
posted by amf at 8:42 AM on September 16, 2021 [13 favorites]
Thinking more about this, I'm leaning more toward the suggestions that involve trusted third parties. A close friend or family member who can talk directly to your spouse about it. "Trusted messengers" is a concept in health teaching especially for vaccine hesitant people. As was suggested above, it could be a medical provider who your spouse trusts, or someone who's family member was harmed by COVID, or just someone they trust.
Personally, I did not want to vaccinate when my baby was born (this was out of the hippy tradition not the modern anti-vax tradition) and what eventually turned me around was my friend convincing me I'm not doing it for my kid but rather for the community at large and people who truly can't be vaccinated. So perhaps there's some lever that someone who is not in the midst of a fight with her can help pull with your spouse.
(Ask metafilter loves to cavalierly advise people to end their long term relationships. I think that's weird and silly as most long term relationships will hit certain really hard conflicts and for me that is just part of life).
posted by latkes at 8:57 AM on September 16, 2021 [10 favorites]
Personally, I did not want to vaccinate when my baby was born (this was out of the hippy tradition not the modern anti-vax tradition) and what eventually turned me around was my friend convincing me I'm not doing it for my kid but rather for the community at large and people who truly can't be vaccinated. So perhaps there's some lever that someone who is not in the midst of a fight with her can help pull with your spouse.
(Ask metafilter loves to cavalierly advise people to end their long term relationships. I think that's weird and silly as most long term relationships will hit certain really hard conflicts and for me that is just part of life).
posted by latkes at 8:57 AM on September 16, 2021 [10 favorites]
Also, the number of vaccinations is, we hope, far far greater than the number of children admitted to the hospital for any reason. So, a (imagined) .01% risk from a vaccination is designed to MAKE the risk of being admitted to the hospital STAY low.
posted by amtho at 8:57 AM on September 16, 2021
posted by amtho at 8:57 AM on September 16, 2021
To all the pre-prints being cirulated in this thread: I'm a nurse and one take-away I have from COVID is we should be real that there are uncertainties here and so I don't think there's value on doubling down that we absolutely know the science either way. This is in fact new stuff being studied as we speak. But we can say with confidence, based on all the evidence we have so far, and what we understand from many decades of virology and epidemiology, is that there is a consensus of experts who feel strongly that vaccinations for 12 year olds is safer for the individual child AND for the community at large than non-vaccination.
posted by latkes at 9:00 AM on September 16, 2021 [21 favorites]
posted by latkes at 9:00 AM on September 16, 2021 [21 favorites]
i think: not wholly a twelve year old's decision. consider the mental health consequences of the decision at that age. "i got covid and i didn't vax, and it's all my fault." pretty fucked up, right? own the decision, with her input.
just like measles and whooping cough and hpv to me. do what's right for her and take the heat.
tbh, i wouldn't want to be married to someone that is stubbornly, willingly, misinformed on an issue that has scientific consensus. that's just me.
posted by j_curiouser at 9:03 AM on September 16, 2021
just like measles and whooping cough and hpv to me. do what's right for her and take the heat.
tbh, i wouldn't want to be married to someone that is stubbornly, willingly, misinformed on an issue that has scientific consensus. that's just me.
posted by j_curiouser at 9:03 AM on September 16, 2021
Incidence of myocarditis Vs hospitalisations from covid isn't a good comparison at all, and nowhere near enough evidence to suggest a benefit one way or the other. The statistics I would want are:
- Incidence of myocarditis after vaccine Vs incidence of myocarditis after covid
- % of children requiring medical care due to vaccination vs % of children requiring medical care due to covid.
- % of children who require a hospital stay over 24 hours due to vaccination vs % of children who require a hospital stay over over 24 hours due to covid
- % of children who die due to vaccination vs % percentage of children who die due to covid
-% of children who have long term symptoms due to vaccination vs % of children who have long term symptoms due to covid.
These are are all different things and people will weigh them differently. I suspect the stats will come out pretty much in favour of vaccination, but I don't think they're even all available yet.
This could be a good starting point for further discussion with your wife though. Try find numbers for these things, together, and discuss which are more important to you both, and what would tip the scales for her?
posted by stillnocturnal at 9:26 AM on September 16, 2021 [6 favorites]
- Incidence of myocarditis after vaccine Vs incidence of myocarditis after covid
- % of children requiring medical care due to vaccination vs % of children requiring medical care due to covid.
- % of children who require a hospital stay over 24 hours due to vaccination vs % of children who require a hospital stay over over 24 hours due to covid
- % of children who die due to vaccination vs % percentage of children who die due to covid
-% of children who have long term symptoms due to vaccination vs % of children who have long term symptoms due to covid.
These are are all different things and people will weigh them differently. I suspect the stats will come out pretty much in favour of vaccination, but I don't think they're even all available yet.
This could be a good starting point for further discussion with your wife though. Try find numbers for these things, together, and discuss which are more important to you both, and what would tip the scales for her?
posted by stillnocturnal at 9:26 AM on September 16, 2021 [6 favorites]
I am far from alone in no longer speaking to my parents because they refused vaccination for me as a child. Your wife may be willing to sacrifice her relationship with her child over this, but I urge you not to. Perhaps she will be swayed by asking her if she is willing to forgo a relationship with your daughter when she is an adult because she forced her to live with a level of risk that your daughter is obviously uncomfortable with. Being cut off from your peers due to lack of vaccination is a real harm. Pediatric ICUs are full in parts of the States, and not with vaccine injuries.
posted by Bottlecap at 9:32 AM on September 16, 2021 [8 favorites]
posted by Bottlecap at 9:32 AM on September 16, 2021 [8 favorites]
oh boy. I agree that your daughter's wanting the vaccine is the deciding factor. let her know she can go alone, or you will go with her, and definitely tell your wife. tell your wife "daughter has decided for herself that she wants the vaccine and she is legally empowered to make that choice for herself. she has asked me to accompany her. then we are going for ice cream. do you want some?"
posted by supermedusa at 9:49 AM on September 16, 2021 [2 favorites]
posted by supermedusa at 9:49 AM on September 16, 2021 [2 favorites]
On further thought, I think the potential harm to your daughter from damaging her parents' marriage in a fight over this probably vastly outstrips the potential harms to her from either Covid or the vaccine. I know you feel that you've already tried everything, but I think the most important thing is to find a way to make peace over this issue. Unilateral actions are just going to destroy your trust in each other.
Your wife has clearly dug in hard to her position. She's not going to suddenly change her mind when she hears one magic argument because she isn't some robot cooly balancing risks. She's a parent who is scared that her child might come to harm. Give it a few months, don't constantly bring the issue up, and when it naturally does, listen to what your wife has to say and encourage her to listen to you and especially your daughter. If you want to push things along, a trusted third party is a good idea. Also, always give space for your wife to climb down without feeling stupid.
"You cannot reason someone out of something he or she was not reasoned into."
posted by Urtylug at 10:06 AM on September 16, 2021 [6 favorites]
Your wife has clearly dug in hard to her position. She's not going to suddenly change her mind when she hears one magic argument because she isn't some robot cooly balancing risks. She's a parent who is scared that her child might come to harm. Give it a few months, don't constantly bring the issue up, and when it naturally does, listen to what your wife has to say and encourage her to listen to you and especially your daughter. If you want to push things along, a trusted third party is a good idea. Also, always give space for your wife to climb down without feeling stupid.
"You cannot reason someone out of something he or she was not reasoned into."
posted by Urtylug at 10:06 AM on September 16, 2021 [6 favorites]
It sounds like her concerns/fears are based in a future-scenario that *could* happen and yours are based in a reality that *is* happening.
I think there is great advice above on agency, autonomy and being transparent and honest. If it is accurate, that a 12 year old may legally seek a vaccination then the conversation seems to hinge on how do we accomplish this quickly and make it as ok as it can be, as a family.
There is a lot to work and talk about on post-vaccination.
I imagine this is incredibly difficult for you. I wish you well.
posted by zerobyproxy at 10:45 AM on September 16, 2021 [3 favorites]
I think there is great advice above on agency, autonomy and being transparent and honest. If it is accurate, that a 12 year old may legally seek a vaccination then the conversation seems to hinge on how do we accomplish this quickly and make it as ok as it can be, as a family.
There is a lot to work and talk about on post-vaccination.
I imagine this is incredibly difficult for you. I wish you well.
posted by zerobyproxy at 10:45 AM on September 16, 2021 [3 favorites]
The Vaccine vs. the Virus (Science Based Medicine)
posted by kathrynm at 10:46 AM on September 16, 2021 [3 favorites]
posted by kathrynm at 10:46 AM on September 16, 2021 [3 favorites]
Our daughter also wants her shot and is obviously upset by what she can tell are conflicting opinions between her parents.
Never a better time to show a twelve year old girl she is in charge of her body.
posted by A Terrible Llama at 11:23 AM on September 16, 2021 [19 favorites]
Never a better time to show a twelve year old girl she is in charge of her body.
posted by A Terrible Llama at 11:23 AM on September 16, 2021 [19 favorites]
Oh, for whatever it is worth we got our daughter vaccinated the very first day it was available. She was twelve then and started her period either right before or right after (same age that I did) and everything has gone normally and she's starting to get regular. That was like six months ago.
No side effects, nothing. I know anecdotes aren't science but it doesn't sound like science matters much to your wife.
posted by A Terrible Llama at 11:27 AM on September 16, 2021 [1 favorite]
No side effects, nothing. I know anecdotes aren't science but it doesn't sound like science matters much to your wife.
posted by A Terrible Llama at 11:27 AM on September 16, 2021 [1 favorite]
I'm only commenting because the consequences in the thread appear to center on myocarditis and/or death. But if I understand correctly, COVID is a respiratory and inflammatory disease. So, for example, it can damage your lungs even if you never need to go to a hospital, and we don't know how long the effects of this damage may be. There are some tiny-sample studies (n=16) from China showing these effects in children with COVID. While I would never suggest that these were sufficient for drawing conclusions, they do serve as an existence proof, in that they demonstrate the possibility for harm that we are years away from understanding.
Yes there may be long term consequences to taking the vaccine, and I can see the importance of acknowledging that. But yes, there is evidence that there could be long term consequences to getting COVID too. I'm so sorry to say knowing that probably won't make anyone feel better, but it perhaps reframes the decision more as "either / or" risk management choice than a "yes/no" vaccine choice.
(anecdote/disclaimer - childhood pneumonia can mess you up later in life, so I am personally sensitive to the anxiety that childhood lung inflammation from other causes might do so as well.)
posted by BlueBlueElectricBlue at 12:57 PM on September 16, 2021 [5 favorites]
Yes there may be long term consequences to taking the vaccine, and I can see the importance of acknowledging that. But yes, there is evidence that there could be long term consequences to getting COVID too. I'm so sorry to say knowing that probably won't make anyone feel better, but it perhaps reframes the decision more as "either / or" risk management choice than a "yes/no" vaccine choice.
(anecdote/disclaimer - childhood pneumonia can mess you up later in life, so I am personally sensitive to the anxiety that childhood lung inflammation from other causes might do so as well.)
posted by BlueBlueElectricBlue at 12:57 PM on September 16, 2021 [5 favorites]
According to everything I've read on the topic, historically there's no such thing as side effects that don't appear relatively quickly, i.e., a matter of months at most, and we are not only already far past that, but also the pool of people who have been vaccinated is historically huge, so the sample size is enormous. Whatever side effects the vaccines might cause have almost certainly already happened and are most likely known. So it's very unlikely there are going to be any unexpected side effects that showing up down the road.
posted by Dansaman at 6:48 PM on September 16, 2021 [4 favorites]
posted by Dansaman at 6:48 PM on September 16, 2021 [4 favorites]
That is a difficult question to be answered. Anyway, you mention that your wife is concerned about the vaccine potential “long term” effects. In theory anything is possible and nothing can be ruled out. But:
Why isn’t she worried about your daughter catching Covid-19? (Especially being at school where most children aren’t vaccinated). Why does your wife assume that a vaccine may have side effects but Covid cannot and will not have effects (when thousands of kids were affected by different problems, even months after suffering from Covid)?
posted by oberon_1 at 6:54 PM on September 16, 2021 [3 favorites]
Why isn’t she worried about your daughter catching Covid-19? (Especially being at school where most children aren’t vaccinated). Why does your wife assume that a vaccine may have side effects but Covid cannot and will not have effects (when thousands of kids were affected by different problems, even months after suffering from Covid)?
posted by oberon_1 at 6:54 PM on September 16, 2021 [3 favorites]
If her concerns are literally only about long term side effects and not the other stuff people have been pulling out of their ass in their answers, your wife is suffering from a fundamental misunderstanding of how vaccines work.
Personally, since your daughter actively wants to be vaccinated, I'd show your wife the article that ceak linked earlier, gently tell her that you understand that she is afraid, but that you are going to take your daughter to get vaccinated as soon as you can. Every day you wait is another day that goes by that your daughter can catch COVID and possibly end up with the very real side effects of getting the disease, some of which either don't resolve quickly or even show up until well after the initial illness..
I live in Florida, where Delta is raging out of control. It has already killed children and hospitalized enough to say with certainty that it is not to be trifled with. There is an epidemic of unvaccinated children getting sick and even dying of COVID. There is not an epidemic of children being seriously harmed from vaccination. Even if your daughter was to develop myocarditis as a result of being vaccinated, the risk of her coming to long term harm is much lower than the risk of harm from COVID.
Lastly, if there were any significant risk of reproductive effects from the vaccines, we would know by now. Health care workers first became eligible for vaccination almost a year ago. Some, like my sister in law, got pregnant after being vaccinated and have seen no increase in the rate of complications. So not only is there no plausible mechanism through which it might happen, we have good evidence showing that it is not happening.
We've been living with COVID for almost two years now, so it isn't surprising that many people are beginning to discount its risks relative to other things that seem novel to them, so do be gentle when talking to your wife, but also be firm. You're very lucky to live in a place where you've had this much time to think about it, some of us don't. Just don't wait until it's too late like so many here did. Delta grows very, very quickly and is transmitted much more easily than what we have gotten used to.
posted by wierdo at 8:53 PM on September 16, 2021 [13 favorites]
Personally, since your daughter actively wants to be vaccinated, I'd show your wife the article that ceak linked earlier, gently tell her that you understand that she is afraid, but that you are going to take your daughter to get vaccinated as soon as you can. Every day you wait is another day that goes by that your daughter can catch COVID and possibly end up with the very real side effects of getting the disease, some of which either don't resolve quickly or even show up until well after the initial illness..
I live in Florida, where Delta is raging out of control. It has already killed children and hospitalized enough to say with certainty that it is not to be trifled with. There is an epidemic of unvaccinated children getting sick and even dying of COVID. There is not an epidemic of children being seriously harmed from vaccination. Even if your daughter was to develop myocarditis as a result of being vaccinated, the risk of her coming to long term harm is much lower than the risk of harm from COVID.
Lastly, if there were any significant risk of reproductive effects from the vaccines, we would know by now. Health care workers first became eligible for vaccination almost a year ago. Some, like my sister in law, got pregnant after being vaccinated and have seen no increase in the rate of complications. So not only is there no plausible mechanism through which it might happen, we have good evidence showing that it is not happening.
We've been living with COVID for almost two years now, so it isn't surprising that many people are beginning to discount its risks relative to other things that seem novel to them, so do be gentle when talking to your wife, but also be firm. You're very lucky to live in a place where you've had this much time to think about it, some of us don't. Just don't wait until it's too late like so many here did. Delta grows very, very quickly and is transmitted much more easily than what we have gotten used to.
posted by wierdo at 8:53 PM on September 16, 2021 [13 favorites]
Ask for forgiveness, not permission. One parent is enough.
posted by greatalleycat at 8:04 PM on September 17, 2021
posted by greatalleycat at 8:04 PM on September 17, 2021
I agree with a lot of what's been said here (your daughter's vote should count, third parties could help, it's important to understand the root of your wife's objection).
The following isn't something that will speak to everyone, but just on the chance it might speak to your wife:
- If everyone (everyone) gets vaccinated today, do you think the pandemic will die out soon? How many more people do you estimate would die before it ends if everyone got vaccinated today? How many new mutations would you expect to see before it dies out (if ever) if everyone got vaccinated today?
- Alternatively, if vaccinations stop today and no one else gets them who isn't already vaccinated, how long will it be before the pandemic dies out (if ever)? How many more people do you estimate would die before it ends if nobody else gets vaccinated? How many new mutations would you expect to see before it dies out (if ever) if nobody else gets vaccinated?
How is this pandemic supposed to end, and what's going to be the cost?
Finally, if she hasn't, I'd also ask my spouse to really look at the official covid-related statistics for Canada and for any other countries of interest. I feel like a lot of people who have opinions against vaccines and pro "learning to live with the virus" don't know offhand how many extra deaths, hospitalizations, and disabilities the pandemic has caused. (Unfortunately the data on post-covid disability is way too sparse, but what there is is still important to consider. As someone who has been dealing with long-covid like chronic illness since I was young - she really does not wish that on her daughter.)
posted by trig at 7:47 AM on September 18, 2021
The following isn't something that will speak to everyone, but just on the chance it might speak to your wife:
- If everyone (everyone) gets vaccinated today, do you think the pandemic will die out soon? How many more people do you estimate would die before it ends if everyone got vaccinated today? How many new mutations would you expect to see before it dies out (if ever) if everyone got vaccinated today?
- Alternatively, if vaccinations stop today and no one else gets them who isn't already vaccinated, how long will it be before the pandemic dies out (if ever)? How many more people do you estimate would die before it ends if nobody else gets vaccinated? How many new mutations would you expect to see before it dies out (if ever) if nobody else gets vaccinated?
How is this pandemic supposed to end, and what's going to be the cost?
Finally, if she hasn't, I'd also ask my spouse to really look at the official covid-related statistics for Canada and for any other countries of interest. I feel like a lot of people who have opinions against vaccines and pro "learning to live with the virus" don't know offhand how many extra deaths, hospitalizations, and disabilities the pandemic has caused. (Unfortunately the data on post-covid disability is way too sparse, but what there is is still important to consider. As someone who has been dealing with long-covid like chronic illness since I was young - she really does not wish that on her daughter.)
posted by trig at 7:47 AM on September 18, 2021
I wonder if she saw something related to that preprint on myocarditis and the COVID vaccine. That preprint (at the minimum of not being peer reviewed yet) is horrible in it's source of data. This article and this article (again, Science Based Medicine) go into some more of the why it's a terrible paper.
posted by kathrynm at 8:12 AM on September 18, 2021 [1 favorite]
posted by kathrynm at 8:12 AM on September 18, 2021 [1 favorite]
From the Washington Post: What I say to persuade parents to vaccinate their kids — and what I hold back.
When, as a doctor, I encounter parents who decline the coronavirus vaccine for their children, I try to remind myself that they are creatures much like me; they are trying to make rational judgments about their child’s best interests, but they’re also moved by fear, instinct and community mores. While it is tempting, in these conversations, to unload the weight of all I have seen — children stricken with severe covid, with mysterious clots and heart problems and respiratory failure — I generally hold these stories back. When parents need to feel heard and reassured, worst-case scenarios can do more harm than good.posted by Winnie the Proust at 7:54 AM on September 19, 2021 [1 favorite]
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posted by pinochiette at 8:43 PM on September 15, 2021 [45 favorites]