Partner is an anti vaxxer and I'm exhausted
September 2, 2021 1:36 PM Subscribe
This is a hard question to write. The central question is whether to keep trying to convince them to get the damn vaccine or just admit defeat and end it for both of our stress levels. It's also too long, as all interpersonal questions are.
I finished Moderna in June. I'm a college teacher in Washington State, which means all state workers are legally obligated to be vaccinated by mid October (which I'm honestly delighted about!), partner is a laborer/assistant for a smallish family business and has worked in person without pause the entire pandemic. We do not live together and on average see each other 1-2 times a week...though it's been significantly less often recently.
I was incredibly nervous about them spending the night/being around at the onset of the pandemic, but I have embarrassingly terrible boundaries and they were so unconcerned I felt...silly, even while everyone else was having to make the decision of whether to combine households or just stay apart for an indeterminate amount of time. We'd been together for a year that March and he put in no uncertain terms that he had no interest in moving in together and didn't see that we would be high risk to be around each other.
Now after 18 months of stress on my part, and "it's not really that contagious" on his, I find out a few weeks ago he flew to Oakland to pick up some material for work, interacted with multiple people unmasked, and drove back to Seattle making multiple stops both for other pickups and the obvious (to sleep, eat etc). Didn't tell me until I happened to call him on the way back (I wondered why the reception was so bad about 10 minutes into the conversation!) with plans to see each other the next day. I was so angry, and frightened and frustrated, still am. Told him to stay away for two weeks, to get tested, to GET VACCINATED of he was going to do things like that, and to not be so goddamn avoidant about keeping me informed about high risk things...that was 4 weeks ago. He did stay away for the requested time and got tested, but I'm still weirded out.
We are invited to dinner parties, I am trying to help my family out while my mother's parent's health declines frighteningly rapidly, I will be teaching in-person in January, I want to meet my friend's 1 year old...but I'm put in the position of having to tell everyone that my partner is unvaxed, that he can't join us, how recently we had contact and then put them in the position of having to decide whether I'm too high of a risk by proxy. So I've finally set the boundary as of last week--get the vaccine or stop coming over.
I did it all wrong. I was hurt and annoyed and rude and too scientific and dismissive of his feelings and nastily compared his hesitance with the microchip people and forced the conversation instead of the gentle feminized care nudging we're all supposed to do. And then he came over two days later, late at night, and guilted me into letting him stay because he had early morning work in my neighborhood the next day! Still unvaxed, of course, and still is as of today.
Now I'm full of contempt and feel steamrolled and like this isn't worth it. However! a large part of me doesn't want to abandon someone I care about to go get Covid, knows that my boundaries have been seriously confusing from the very start (which he pointed out!) and know that my anger and frustration and fear are confusing and probably look erratic to someone who sincerely believes the vaccine won't do much good (and might do harm!) even against all evidence.
Our personal fears are in direct opposition, which seems like the type of thing we need to work... through? And I'm just so tired, my reverse seasonal depression has been low key but definitely sapping my fucks away and don't even know whether I have the energy to hold this boundary, to keep having the vaccine conversation, whether it's worth it or I should just let him come to the vaccination decision on his own.
It seems like such a ridiculous thing, to end a relationship because of this goddamn virus. Also, I feel a sense of responsibility to helping him change his mind and get vaxxed for the entire community, not just for me! But I also feel like there's no way forward unless this entire dismissing of vaccines and science and my concerns somehow magically goes away.
Should I keep trying, or do the sad and not preferable but maybe safer thing and end it?
I finished Moderna in June. I'm a college teacher in Washington State, which means all state workers are legally obligated to be vaccinated by mid October (which I'm honestly delighted about!), partner is a laborer/assistant for a smallish family business and has worked in person without pause the entire pandemic. We do not live together and on average see each other 1-2 times a week...though it's been significantly less often recently.
I was incredibly nervous about them spending the night/being around at the onset of the pandemic, but I have embarrassingly terrible boundaries and they were so unconcerned I felt...silly, even while everyone else was having to make the decision of whether to combine households or just stay apart for an indeterminate amount of time. We'd been together for a year that March and he put in no uncertain terms that he had no interest in moving in together and didn't see that we would be high risk to be around each other.
Now after 18 months of stress on my part, and "it's not really that contagious" on his, I find out a few weeks ago he flew to Oakland to pick up some material for work, interacted with multiple people unmasked, and drove back to Seattle making multiple stops both for other pickups and the obvious (to sleep, eat etc). Didn't tell me until I happened to call him on the way back (I wondered why the reception was so bad about 10 minutes into the conversation!) with plans to see each other the next day. I was so angry, and frightened and frustrated, still am. Told him to stay away for two weeks, to get tested, to GET VACCINATED of he was going to do things like that, and to not be so goddamn avoidant about keeping me informed about high risk things...that was 4 weeks ago. He did stay away for the requested time and got tested, but I'm still weirded out.
We are invited to dinner parties, I am trying to help my family out while my mother's parent's health declines frighteningly rapidly, I will be teaching in-person in January, I want to meet my friend's 1 year old...but I'm put in the position of having to tell everyone that my partner is unvaxed, that he can't join us, how recently we had contact and then put them in the position of having to decide whether I'm too high of a risk by proxy. So I've finally set the boundary as of last week--get the vaccine or stop coming over.
I did it all wrong. I was hurt and annoyed and rude and too scientific and dismissive of his feelings and nastily compared his hesitance with the microchip people and forced the conversation instead of the gentle feminized care nudging we're all supposed to do. And then he came over two days later, late at night, and guilted me into letting him stay because he had early morning work in my neighborhood the next day! Still unvaxed, of course, and still is as of today.
Now I'm full of contempt and feel steamrolled and like this isn't worth it. However! a large part of me doesn't want to abandon someone I care about to go get Covid, knows that my boundaries have been seriously confusing from the very start (which he pointed out!) and know that my anger and frustration and fear are confusing and probably look erratic to someone who sincerely believes the vaccine won't do much good (and might do harm!) even against all evidence.
Our personal fears are in direct opposition, which seems like the type of thing we need to work... through? And I'm just so tired, my reverse seasonal depression has been low key but definitely sapping my fucks away and don't even know whether I have the energy to hold this boundary, to keep having the vaccine conversation, whether it's worth it or I should just let him come to the vaccination decision on his own.
It seems like such a ridiculous thing, to end a relationship because of this goddamn virus. Also, I feel a sense of responsibility to helping him change his mind and get vaxxed for the entire community, not just for me! But I also feel like there's no way forward unless this entire dismissing of vaccines and science and my concerns somehow magically goes away.
Should I keep trying, or do the sad and not preferable but maybe safer thing and end it?
I'm so sorry. I know you want to put this on yourself, make it about how your boundaries have been unclear, make it about how maybe if you were just more consistent he'd be more respectful but... no.
You are allowed to be messy and scared, too, you know. It's an entire historic global pandemic.
First of all, stop beating yourself up for struggling to assert your boundaries. Your partner, whom you love, is making it difficult, and you're on your own with it. That's difficult.
But take it from me, a stranger on the internet: You need to protect yourself, and you deserve a partner who will protect themselves, and you too, and this guy ain't it.
posted by pazazygeek at 1:47 PM on September 2, 2021 [42 favorites]
You are allowed to be messy and scared, too, you know. It's an entire historic global pandemic.
First of all, stop beating yourself up for struggling to assert your boundaries. Your partner, whom you love, is making it difficult, and you're on your own with it. That's difficult.
But take it from me, a stranger on the internet: You need to protect yourself, and you deserve a partner who will protect themselves, and you too, and this guy ain't it.
posted by pazazygeek at 1:47 PM on September 2, 2021 [42 favorites]
Forget the obvious moral problems with any person choosing to be unvaccinated, based on this story this guy is a lying, gaslighting, boundary-pushing jerk who -- again -- literally lies in ways that very obviously put your health and the health of your family at risk. I'm sure there are ways in which he's lovely, but christ, what an asshole.
posted by brainmouse at 1:48 PM on September 2, 2021 [110 favorites]
posted by brainmouse at 1:48 PM on September 2, 2021 [110 favorites]
Your relationship with this person is negatively affecting your ability to maintain relationships with others. This person is also not concerned enough about your health to do things to mitigate their risk, while you are extremely invested in THEIR well-being and even feeling bad about not addressing their incorrect scientific views more respectfully. Stop seeing them for the safety of you and yours. Maybe eventually they will come around and you can start seeing them again, and maybe drawing this boundary will even help them see that there are personal consequences to their choices.
posted by metasarah at 1:49 PM on September 2, 2021 [31 favorites]
posted by metasarah at 1:49 PM on September 2, 2021 [31 favorites]
If he's ignoring your boundaries over this, then he'll ignore them over something else. As painful and heartbreaking as it will be, I'd recommend terminating the relationship.
When a lover comes over, you shouldn't have to be guilted into letting them stay over. It should be along the lines of "awesome, what are we eating, what are we watching, and are you going to let me get any sleep?!" It should be fun, or at the very least, not emotionally taxing in a way that leaves you feeling angry and used the next day.
Remember, he wanted to stay over to make his workday easier on himself.
The hell with this guy.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 1:49 PM on September 2, 2021 [88 favorites]
When a lover comes over, you shouldn't have to be guilted into letting them stay over. It should be along the lines of "awesome, what are we eating, what are we watching, and are you going to let me get any sleep?!" It should be fun, or at the very least, not emotionally taxing in a way that leaves you feeling angry and used the next day.
Remember, he wanted to stay over to make his workday easier on himself.
The hell with this guy.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 1:49 PM on September 2, 2021 [88 favorites]
or I should just let him come to the vaccination decision on his own
Grim Fridge, he already came to the vaccination decision on his own. He made a bad decision. Your values are truly incompatible, which would have become obvious over time even in 'normal' circumstances.
You've gone above and beyond, for months, and have to protect yourself and your mom at this point on. I'm sorry.
posted by Iris Gambol at 1:51 PM on September 2, 2021 [62 favorites]
Grim Fridge, he already came to the vaccination decision on his own. He made a bad decision. Your values are truly incompatible, which would have become obvious over time even in 'normal' circumstances.
You've gone above and beyond, for months, and have to protect yourself and your mom at this point on. I'm sorry.
posted by Iris Gambol at 1:51 PM on September 2, 2021 [62 favorites]
1st answer, yes. He's a dick. End it because of that.
posted by tiny frying pan at 1:57 PM on September 2, 2021 [11 favorites]
posted by tiny frying pan at 1:57 PM on September 2, 2021 [11 favorites]
Also, be prepared for him to gaslight, lie, and/or push your boundaries as you terminate the relationship. Going no contact would probably be best, ask your support network (or mefi) what would be the best way to deal with this potential behavior.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 1:58 PM on September 2, 2021 [23 favorites]
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 1:58 PM on September 2, 2021 [23 favorites]
Agreeing with everyone saying this has precisely nothing to do with Covid, and everything to do with the fact that he doesn't respect you, your boundaries, your decisions, your desire for honesty. Dump him.
posted by BlahLaLa at 1:58 PM on September 2, 2021 [20 favorites]
posted by BlahLaLa at 1:58 PM on September 2, 2021 [20 favorites]
It seems like such a ridiculous thing, to end a relationship because of this goddamn virus.
You're saying it as if you've fallen out over which brand of decongestant to use for a mild cold, but that's not the case. You have fundamentally different ideas about how to behave around a virus so serious it's brought the world to a near standstill for a year and a half. It doesn't seem ridiculous.
The virus is serious, and has had serious effects on all our lives (and that's without the point others have made about how the real issue is him being cavalier about things you care about, rather than just covid).
Also: I feel a sense of responsibility to helping him change his mind and get vaxxed for the entire community,
This. Is. Not. Your. Responsibility. If he didn't get vaccinated already after months of you telling him he should, what makes you think you're going to suddenly come up with the magic words that makes him do it now? Don't put this on yourself.
posted by penguin pie at 2:00 PM on September 2, 2021 [69 favorites]
You're saying it as if you've fallen out over which brand of decongestant to use for a mild cold, but that's not the case. You have fundamentally different ideas about how to behave around a virus so serious it's brought the world to a near standstill for a year and a half. It doesn't seem ridiculous.
The virus is serious, and has had serious effects on all our lives (and that's without the point others have made about how the real issue is him being cavalier about things you care about, rather than just covid).
Also: I feel a sense of responsibility to helping him change his mind and get vaxxed for the entire community,
This. Is. Not. Your. Responsibility. If he didn't get vaccinated already after months of you telling him he should, what makes you think you're going to suddenly come up with the magic words that makes him do it now? Don't put this on yourself.
posted by penguin pie at 2:00 PM on September 2, 2021 [69 favorites]
Here to add my voice to the "dump him" choir -- you're spending a lot of time and energy and emotion worrying about this and it sure doesn't seem like he's agonizing over his decision not to get vaxxed or how it affects you. You have loved ones you're not seeing because of his choices! That is a sad thing! Do you think he's thinking about your needs at all here, like your need to be around people you love who aren't him? It doesn't sound like it.
He's not vaxxed and he sounds like a jerk; dump him.
posted by an octopus IRL at 2:01 PM on September 2, 2021 [12 favorites]
He's not vaxxed and he sounds like a jerk; dump him.
posted by an octopus IRL at 2:01 PM on September 2, 2021 [12 favorites]
He is unwilling to moderate his behavior much to accommodate your real and valid feelings. Have a stern discussion, outline your boundaries and end it if he rolls over them again. He will.
posted by theora55 at 2:02 PM on September 2, 2021 [2 favorites]
posted by theora55 at 2:02 PM on September 2, 2021 [2 favorites]
It seems like such a ridiculous thing, to end a relationship because of this goddamn virus.
Too bad he's doing it! What a chucklehead.
posted by chesty_a_arthur at 2:03 PM on September 2, 2021 [60 favorites]
Too bad he's doing it! What a chucklehead.
posted by chesty_a_arthur at 2:03 PM on September 2, 2021 [60 favorites]
You’re a teacher! You may have students who legitimately cannot get vaccinated and you are doing your part to try to protect them and limit the virus spread. He should be admiring your dedication and helping you.
As a parent of unvaccinated kids who have to go to school, I am so grateful for their teachers who are desperately trying to protect students and maintain some semblance of education, despite the masks and the precautions and the angry parents. God bless you. Thank you for what you’re doing. And what, he’s scared of a shot? Awwww. He can be scared alone.
Covid is confusing and stressful and everyone is making constant, evolving decisions and if this person can’t understand or empathize with the difficult situation you’re in, I say DTMF. And I’ve literally never said that before.
posted by areaperson at 2:09 PM on September 2, 2021 [20 favorites]
As a parent of unvaccinated kids who have to go to school, I am so grateful for their teachers who are desperately trying to protect students and maintain some semblance of education, despite the masks and the precautions and the angry parents. God bless you. Thank you for what you’re doing. And what, he’s scared of a shot? Awwww. He can be scared alone.
Covid is confusing and stressful and everyone is making constant, evolving decisions and if this person can’t understand or empathize with the difficult situation you’re in, I say DTMF. And I’ve literally never said that before.
posted by areaperson at 2:09 PM on September 2, 2021 [20 favorites]
I'm sorry you are going through this. My relationship with my family member who refuses to get vaccinated has been damaged, possibly irreparably, because of this very problem, so I know a little bit of what you are experiencing.
There are many good answers above about why it would be best for your health (mental and physical) to end it with this person, but I wanted to address this part of your comment:
I feel a sense of responsibility to helping him change his mind and get vaxxed for the entire community, not just for me!
I expressed this very thought to my counsellor and she actually said to me, UGH THIS SOUNDS EXHAUSTING (yes, that is verbatim). She continued on to say, this is not and cannot be your responsibility. You have already given this person the info and tried to get them to change their mind, and they have chosen not to accept it. You cannot control that, and it is not your responsibility to keep trying and trying until your own health is compromised. If they continue on their path of destruction by not getting vaccinated or masking, then that is sad, but it is not on you.
This is much easier said than done, of course, but hearing her say that did provide me with some relief--almost like I had "permission" to stop feeling so responsible. So, I give you permission as an internet stranger, for what that's worth: you have already tried to educate this man, and he has chosen not to take in or believe what you've told him, and it's not your responsibility anymore. He already knows what he should do. You can't control him, but you can limit the risk to yourself at this point.
I'm sorry. This is hard and sad. But I do think you should break up with him and prioritize your own physical and mental health.
posted by hurdy gurdy girl at 2:09 PM on September 2, 2021 [30 favorites]
There are many good answers above about why it would be best for your health (mental and physical) to end it with this person, but I wanted to address this part of your comment:
I feel a sense of responsibility to helping him change his mind and get vaxxed for the entire community, not just for me!
I expressed this very thought to my counsellor and she actually said to me, UGH THIS SOUNDS EXHAUSTING (yes, that is verbatim). She continued on to say, this is not and cannot be your responsibility. You have already given this person the info and tried to get them to change their mind, and they have chosen not to accept it. You cannot control that, and it is not your responsibility to keep trying and trying until your own health is compromised. If they continue on their path of destruction by not getting vaccinated or masking, then that is sad, but it is not on you.
This is much easier said than done, of course, but hearing her say that did provide me with some relief--almost like I had "permission" to stop feeling so responsible. So, I give you permission as an internet stranger, for what that's worth: you have already tried to educate this man, and he has chosen not to take in or believe what you've told him, and it's not your responsibility anymore. He already knows what he should do. You can't control him, but you can limit the risk to yourself at this point.
I'm sorry. This is hard and sad. But I do think you should break up with him and prioritize your own physical and mental health.
posted by hurdy gurdy girl at 2:09 PM on September 2, 2021 [30 favorites]
Does it make it better if you think of it in terms of you're ending a relationship with someone who does not prioritize you and your safety over [whatever his reasons are for not getting the vaccine and from hiding his risky behavior]? You need to be able to trust his judgment and you can't.
While you are up not feeling bad for standing up for yourself, it might be some self-kindness to do some work on your boundaries so you attract someone who respects you and you won't put up with someone who seems kind of thoughtless at best.
posted by *s at 2:11 PM on September 2, 2021 [8 favorites]
While you are up not feeling bad for standing up for yourself, it might be some self-kindness to do some work on your boundaries so you attract someone who respects you and you won't put up with someone who seems kind of thoughtless at best.
posted by *s at 2:11 PM on September 2, 2021 [8 favorites]
I did it all wrong.
Oh hell no. You are not taking the blame for his well-demonstrated lack of critical thinking skills and complete lack of caring for others. He made this conversation necessary, let him have it the way he got it. And free yourself.
posted by sageleaf at 2:38 PM on September 2, 2021 [44 favorites]
Oh hell no. You are not taking the blame for his well-demonstrated lack of critical thinking skills and complete lack of caring for others. He made this conversation necessary, let him have it the way he got it. And free yourself.
posted by sageleaf at 2:38 PM on September 2, 2021 [44 favorites]
Is this a person whose values you share?
Because his disregard for others is what it is. His regard for science is pretty clearly expressed. His willingness to lie to you to do what he wants is documented. He's manipulative and coercive. How did you intend to "work through" that? What's your long game here, did you want to have kids or combine finances or put emergency medical decisions in this person's hands?
(And I don't want to be this paranoid, but "it's just a bad flu/I don't want the vaccine" has a decent chance of becoming those microchip people eventually. Where's the line? If you're not going to pull the plug now, decide now how much is too much so you don't get frogboiled. And if you are capable of getting pregnant, double up your contraception.)
posted by Lyn Never at 2:38 PM on September 2, 2021 [33 favorites]
Because his disregard for others is what it is. His regard for science is pretty clearly expressed. His willingness to lie to you to do what he wants is documented. He's manipulative and coercive. How did you intend to "work through" that? What's your long game here, did you want to have kids or combine finances or put emergency medical decisions in this person's hands?
(And I don't want to be this paranoid, but "it's just a bad flu/I don't want the vaccine" has a decent chance of becoming those microchip people eventually. Where's the line? If you're not going to pull the plug now, decide now how much is too much so you don't get frogboiled. And if you are capable of getting pregnant, double up your contraception.)
posted by Lyn Never at 2:38 PM on September 2, 2021 [33 favorites]
knows that my boundaries have been seriously confusing from the very start (which he pointed out!)
Your boundaries aren't confusing. He knows what they are, ignores them, and then blames you for making it "confusing" because you don't successfully resist him when he does.
This is unkind and manipulative behavior regardless of subject matter.
posted by praemunire at 2:39 PM on September 2, 2021 [76 favorites]
Your boundaries aren't confusing. He knows what they are, ignores them, and then blames you for making it "confusing" because you don't successfully resist him when he does.
This is unkind and manipulative behavior regardless of subject matter.
posted by praemunire at 2:39 PM on September 2, 2021 [76 favorites]
This is exactly like a guy who doesn’t tell you the condom broke. He knows it’s of utmost importance to you and that you’re the one who will bear the consequences but he doesn’t tell you because it interferes with his momentary pleasure.
Anyway, the thing is, once trust is broken you can’t get it back. It’s gone. Time to move on.
posted by HotToddy at 2:42 PM on September 2, 2021 [34 favorites]
Anyway, the thing is, once trust is broken you can’t get it back. It’s gone. Time to move on.
posted by HotToddy at 2:42 PM on September 2, 2021 [34 favorites]
He's a coward, a fool, and a shit. Dump him. He pushes your boundaries and makes you feel like you are the one failing. The gentle, feminine line in your post got me. That is, frankly, garbage. He is a big boy (I guess?) and can handle truth, science, real-people, adult feelings, and discussion. He does not need soothing in matters of public health.
As one previous poster said upthread, be ready for shitty pushback in the breakup. Let me paraphrase one of my favorite AskMe answers: He will attempt to give you a crock of shit-- do not accept the crock.
posted by oflinkey at 2:48 PM on September 2, 2021 [24 favorites]
As one previous poster said upthread, be ready for shitty pushback in the breakup. Let me paraphrase one of my favorite AskMe answers: He will attempt to give you a crock of shit-- do not accept the crock.
posted by oflinkey at 2:48 PM on September 2, 2021 [24 favorites]
Your feelings of anger and frustration are valid and justified. If they look "confusing and erratic" to him, that's his problem, not yours.
posted by O9scar at 2:57 PM on September 2, 2021 [13 favorites]
posted by O9scar at 2:57 PM on September 2, 2021 [13 favorites]
Reading this post makes me so angry for you. You have done so much to accommodate his decisions and feelings (which are reckless and superstitious), and he has done little to nothing to accommodate yours (which are informed and considerate).
posted by Ryon at 3:00 PM on September 2, 2021 [17 favorites]
posted by Ryon at 3:00 PM on September 2, 2021 [17 favorites]
I did it all wrong.
It deserves to be said again. No. You didn't.
knows that my boundaries have been seriously confusing from the very start (which he pointed out!)
No. They aren't. He's gaslighting you. I'm sorry.
posted by bowmaniac at 3:05 PM on September 2, 2021 [28 favorites]
It deserves to be said again. No. You didn't.
knows that my boundaries have been seriously confusing from the very start (which he pointed out!)
No. They aren't. He's gaslighting you. I'm sorry.
posted by bowmaniac at 3:05 PM on September 2, 2021 [28 favorites]
My best friend of 40+ years is a hard-line anti-vaxxer. I'm not going to change her mind. I finally decided to allow myself ONE - and only one - attempt, and then I was going to let it go. I'm also not going to see her in person until either the world changes or... I don't know.
Honestly... My granddaughter's mom is a very recently re-sober meth & heroin addict, who grew up with also druggie (& abusive) parents, and her mom is still rabidly druggie & anti-vax (don't ask me how those rationalize, I have no idea either) - and SHE was/is very reluctant to get the vaccine, and yet is going to do it as soon as her doctor permits. (She's also pregnant, recently started suboxone, and they don't want her getting it until she's stabile otherwise.)
In other words, a severe addict with a history of antivax was far, far easier to convince than a recently antivaxxer convinced by the current era conservatives. AKA... don't bother more than once. If they're not receptive, they're not going to become so. And more and more, I'm feeling less and less sympathy...
posted by stormyteal at 3:08 PM on September 2, 2021 [7 favorites]
Honestly... My granddaughter's mom is a very recently re-sober meth & heroin addict, who grew up with also druggie (& abusive) parents, and her mom is still rabidly druggie & anti-vax (don't ask me how those rationalize, I have no idea either) - and SHE was/is very reluctant to get the vaccine, and yet is going to do it as soon as her doctor permits. (She's also pregnant, recently started suboxone, and they don't want her getting it until she's stabile otherwise.)
In other words, a severe addict with a history of antivax was far, far easier to convince than a recently antivaxxer convinced by the current era conservatives. AKA... don't bother more than once. If they're not receptive, they're not going to become so. And more and more, I'm feeling less and less sympathy...
posted by stormyteal at 3:08 PM on September 2, 2021 [7 favorites]
I also was struck by this "And then he came over two days later, late at night, and guilted me into letting him stay" as a huge red flag that he is not respecting your wishes. But plenty of people have said that, so let me also say this...
He's also showing you that he doesn't care about your feelings. If he were a raging micro-chip-anti-vaxer, then at least he'd have a "reason" for not getting vaccinated. I mean it's a dumb reason and I would still say break up with him, don't get me wrong. But at least it would be a reason. But that fact that he just kind of doesn't care and doesn't think the vaccine helps shows that he doesn't care about the fact that YOU care. If the vaccine is basically nothing at all, an ineffective thing with a tiny risk of bad side effects, and it's really important to you, why doesn't he get it? If there's something you think is pointless but that is easy to do and is important to your partner, why wouldn't you do it if you care about your partner's feelings?
posted by If only I had a penguin... at 3:08 PM on September 2, 2021 [27 favorites]
He's also showing you that he doesn't care about your feelings. If he were a raging micro-chip-anti-vaxer, then at least he'd have a "reason" for not getting vaccinated. I mean it's a dumb reason and I would still say break up with him, don't get me wrong. But at least it would be a reason. But that fact that he just kind of doesn't care and doesn't think the vaccine helps shows that he doesn't care about the fact that YOU care. If the vaccine is basically nothing at all, an ineffective thing with a tiny risk of bad side effects, and it's really important to you, why doesn't he get it? If there's something you think is pointless but that is easy to do and is important to your partner, why wouldn't you do it if you care about your partner's feelings?
posted by If only I had a penguin... at 3:08 PM on September 2, 2021 [27 favorites]
You keep saying that he is good and lovely in other ways, but honestly, I can't imagine someone so good in any way that they would be worth risking my health and that of others I love because he was too pigheaded to get two lousy free shots that are clearly both safe and effective.
He ignores your boundaries, makes you feel bad for even having any, lies to you (repeatedly) and is willfully embracing ignorance.
You deserve better. But even alone is better than this guy.
Dump him, cry about him, get angry about him, and then you can embrace a better life without somebody who makes you feel so miserable.
posted by emjaybee at 3:09 PM on September 2, 2021 [14 favorites]
He ignores your boundaries, makes you feel bad for even having any, lies to you (repeatedly) and is willfully embracing ignorance.
You deserve better. But even alone is better than this guy.
Dump him, cry about him, get angry about him, and then you can embrace a better life without somebody who makes you feel so miserable.
posted by emjaybee at 3:09 PM on September 2, 2021 [14 favorites]
However! a large part of me [a] doesn't want to abandon someone I care about to go get Covid, [b] knows that my boundaries have been seriously confusing from the very start (which he pointed out!) and [c] know that my anger and frustration and fear are confusing and probably look erratic to someone who sincerely believes the vaccine won't do much good (and might do harm!) even against all evidence.
(a) you're not abandoning him to get covid. He is making sincere, continual efforts to get it, and he hasn't let himself be swayed by anything for a year and a half. If he gets it, it's not because of his relationship status. You don't need to get infected by him out of solidarity.
(b) have your boundaries really been confusing? Or have you tried to set boundaries, and then given in to his pushing against and ignoring them? Is he turning the fact that you've tried to accommodate him against you, while ignoring the fact that the accommodations you made for him scared you, made you uncomfortable, and restricted your ability to be with other people you care about? (Leaving aside the fact that they also put you and the people you interact with in danger.)
(c) I don't think that in September of 2021 anyone can reasonably be confused by other people's fear and anger about covid. Imagine that your partner is deeply afraid of and angry about something. Wouldn't you go and try to learn about it, and try to empathize with, or at least understand, their fear and anger? And imagine that their feelings are shared by the majority of the world, and based on very well-documented things like massive body counts. You might disagree with those feelings. But you cannot legitimately claim to be confused by them. That's not what's going on here.
You guys have incompatible values. His values don't include doing something he doesn't believe will help (which every national and international health authority in the world does believe will help), even when he knows it will alleviate, if nothing else, his partner's (legitimate and all too well-grounded) fear. His values don't include making a best-faith effort to see if maybe his partner is right after all. His values don't include bringing the effects of his actions on others into his calculations. Better to find out sooner rather than later. If you breaking up it's not because of the virus; it's because of what the virus exposed about him.
Sorry you're dealing with this avoidable heartache amid so many unavoidable things.
posted by trig at 3:12 PM on September 2, 2021 [31 favorites]
(a) you're not abandoning him to get covid. He is making sincere, continual efforts to get it, and he hasn't let himself be swayed by anything for a year and a half. If he gets it, it's not because of his relationship status. You don't need to get infected by him out of solidarity.
(b) have your boundaries really been confusing? Or have you tried to set boundaries, and then given in to his pushing against and ignoring them? Is he turning the fact that you've tried to accommodate him against you, while ignoring the fact that the accommodations you made for him scared you, made you uncomfortable, and restricted your ability to be with other people you care about? (Leaving aside the fact that they also put you and the people you interact with in danger.)
(c) I don't think that in September of 2021 anyone can reasonably be confused by other people's fear and anger about covid. Imagine that your partner is deeply afraid of and angry about something. Wouldn't you go and try to learn about it, and try to empathize with, or at least understand, their fear and anger? And imagine that their feelings are shared by the majority of the world, and based on very well-documented things like massive body counts. You might disagree with those feelings. But you cannot legitimately claim to be confused by them. That's not what's going on here.
You guys have incompatible values. His values don't include doing something he doesn't believe will help (which every national and international health authority in the world does believe will help), even when he knows it will alleviate, if nothing else, his partner's (legitimate and all too well-grounded) fear. His values don't include making a best-faith effort to see if maybe his partner is right after all. His values don't include bringing the effects of his actions on others into his calculations. Better to find out sooner rather than later. If you breaking up it's not because of the virus; it's because of what the virus exposed about him.
Sorry you're dealing with this avoidable heartache amid so many unavoidable things.
posted by trig at 3:12 PM on September 2, 2021 [31 favorites]
Don't be a victim of Stockholm syndrome. It is fine to leave a person that endangers your health, the health of others, and frankly browbeats you for relations. By extension, he is being pretty blithe about endangering others including everyone YOU come in contact with like students and family. You can't save someone who doesn't want to be saved and frankly, will be mean/ungrateful to you if you did save them. I have dealt with people like this, they do not have epiphanies, just new tirades.
posted by jadepearl at 3:18 PM on September 2, 2021 [10 favorites]
posted by jadepearl at 3:18 PM on September 2, 2021 [10 favorites]
my boundaries have been seriously confusing from the very start (which he pointed out!)
What he is really saying is, if your desires (which he knew very well) were actually boundaries, why did you let him get away with ignoring them? That is how children and adolescents think, pushing against stated rules and boundaries to try to see what they can actually get away with. This is not how a decent grown-ass adult thinks and acts. You should not have to constantly defend your stated boundaries against his attempts to push through them, in order for them not to be invalidated. No wonder you are exhausted. I'm exhausted just thinking about it.
posted by Serene Empress Dork at 3:40 PM on September 2, 2021 [33 favorites]
What he is really saying is, if your desires (which he knew very well) were actually boundaries, why did you let him get away with ignoring them? That is how children and adolescents think, pushing against stated rules and boundaries to try to see what they can actually get away with. This is not how a decent grown-ass adult thinks and acts. You should not have to constantly defend your stated boundaries against his attempts to push through them, in order for them not to be invalidated. No wonder you are exhausted. I'm exhausted just thinking about it.
posted by Serene Empress Dork at 3:40 PM on September 2, 2021 [33 favorites]
Is this guy sixteen? Because this kind of behavior is that of a self centered oblivious child who does not see other people as people. Are you his high school crush he has put on a pedestal and subsequently dehumanized? He is disingenuous, disrespectful, demanding, oh yeah, and an enormous douche.
Teen boys have plenty of charm points and wonderful aspects and can grow into amazing people but my god, I am grateful every day that they are not my responsibility. It might be preferable for you right now to keep this guy coming back but I guarantee that there are many grown adults who will respect you, be truthful, share burdens with you, and be much more lovable than him.
posted by Mizu at 4:01 PM on September 2, 2021 [4 favorites]
Teen boys have plenty of charm points and wonderful aspects and can grow into amazing people but my god, I am grateful every day that they are not my responsibility. It might be preferable for you right now to keep this guy coming back but I guarantee that there are many grown adults who will respect you, be truthful, share burdens with you, and be much more lovable than him.
posted by Mizu at 4:01 PM on September 2, 2021 [4 favorites]
It seems like such a ridiculous thing, to end a relationship because of this goddamn virus.
No, it really doesn't. This person has no bottom. There is no thing that will ever make them interested in science, the public good, protecting others, etc.
I'm done with these people. They're real pieces of shit.
It sounds like he's made you feel really crappy about yourself and like you're to blame for... anything. You're living the best you can in a pandemic. You are vaccinated. You're trying to get through it without hurting other people or getting COVID. Do you think any of that would apply to him because I don't.
posted by OnTheLastCastle at 4:15 PM on September 2, 2021 [5 favorites]
No, it really doesn't. This person has no bottom. There is no thing that will ever make them interested in science, the public good, protecting others, etc.
I'm done with these people. They're real pieces of shit.
It sounds like he's made you feel really crappy about yourself and like you're to blame for... anything. You're living the best you can in a pandemic. You are vaccinated. You're trying to get through it without hurting other people or getting COVID. Do you think any of that would apply to him because I don't.
posted by OnTheLastCastle at 4:15 PM on September 2, 2021 [5 favorites]
Friend - even without a pandemic a partner who deliberately doesn’t tell you when they’re going on a risky out of state trip is a shit partner. And using the word partner for someone who does not treat you as an equal partner is a setup for being miserable the whole entire time you are with them.
posted by Bottlecap at 4:22 PM on September 2, 2021 [15 favorites]
posted by Bottlecap at 4:22 PM on September 2, 2021 [15 favorites]
Imagine you are in an open relationship (if you're not already in one).
The relationship is open, so you set the rule that if either of you go outside the relationship it has to be protected sex. You don't want to be exposed to STIs and you don't want to expose anyone else to STIs. You are faithful about using protection with your other partners, but your primary doesn't want to have protected sex. He doesn't want protected sex with you and he doesn't want it with anyone else. Every time you ask him to use protection he brushes off your concerns. You tell him you will stop having sex with him unless he uses protection, and his response is to have unprotected sex with other people and simply not tell you about it. You discover this only through happenstance while he's on the way to have sex with you. If you hadn't asked you'd never know.
You set the boundary that fine, you will not have sex with him until he starts using protection with you--and his response is to come over to your place and guilt you into having unprotected sex with him anyway.
I hope you agree that in the above scenario he'd be behaving monstrously. The difference between that and coronavirus is that it's not limited to sexual partners anymore. It's everybody the both of you come into contact with--including family, friends, students, and children. He is being exposed to everyone around him and he is exposing them, and in turn he is exposing you and everyone around you. You are blaming yourself because maybe if you said the right words in the right way it would turn him around. But he's not simply hesitant and looking for information and reassurance. He's actively subverting your boundaries. He's actively disrespecting you.
This isn't about diseases any more. He has decided that his personal desires are more important than your concerns about the health and safety of yourself and your loved ones. This is not the behavior of somebody who truly loves you. It is not the behavior of somebody who truly respects you and your opinions. It is not the behavior of somebody who truly sees you as an equal. Because a partner who loved you, respected you, and saw you as an equal would still take you and your boundaries seriously even when they disagreed with you, and he is not doing that. His behavior is independent of pandemics and world crises. Please consider whether this is the kind of partner you want.
posted by Anonymous at 4:24 PM on September 2, 2021
The relationship is open, so you set the rule that if either of you go outside the relationship it has to be protected sex. You don't want to be exposed to STIs and you don't want to expose anyone else to STIs. You are faithful about using protection with your other partners, but your primary doesn't want to have protected sex. He doesn't want protected sex with you and he doesn't want it with anyone else. Every time you ask him to use protection he brushes off your concerns. You tell him you will stop having sex with him unless he uses protection, and his response is to have unprotected sex with other people and simply not tell you about it. You discover this only through happenstance while he's on the way to have sex with you. If you hadn't asked you'd never know.
You set the boundary that fine, you will not have sex with him until he starts using protection with you--and his response is to come over to your place and guilt you into having unprotected sex with him anyway.
I hope you agree that in the above scenario he'd be behaving monstrously. The difference between that and coronavirus is that it's not limited to sexual partners anymore. It's everybody the both of you come into contact with--including family, friends, students, and children. He is being exposed to everyone around him and he is exposing them, and in turn he is exposing you and everyone around you. You are blaming yourself because maybe if you said the right words in the right way it would turn him around. But he's not simply hesitant and looking for information and reassurance. He's actively subverting your boundaries. He's actively disrespecting you.
This isn't about diseases any more. He has decided that his personal desires are more important than your concerns about the health and safety of yourself and your loved ones. This is not the behavior of somebody who truly loves you. It is not the behavior of somebody who truly respects you and your opinions. It is not the behavior of somebody who truly sees you as an equal. Because a partner who loved you, respected you, and saw you as an equal would still take you and your boundaries seriously even when they disagreed with you, and he is not doing that. His behavior is independent of pandemics and world crises. Please consider whether this is the kind of partner you want.
posted by Anonymous at 4:24 PM on September 2, 2021
Everyone else already made all the good points, so I'll just say: if you decide to end it, or to get some distance because of it, you wouldn't be the first person I know of to make that decision.
And the others I know of have not made that call lightly. These were relationships established over months to years, involving people who cared deeply for one another. But in a situation like this, caring isn't enough if it's not accompanied by action-- a simple, easy action to protect himself, you and everyone you both come into contact with.
Just to add another layer to this: as you know, although the vaccine gives some protection against the more severe effects of COVID, vaccinated people can still get and transmit the Delta variant. So if he grudgingly got his shots to keep you from breaking up with him, but continued to ignore precautions like masks and distancing, he would still be putting you at risk (and by extension, your students and your family).
So what would be required is not only those 2 vaccination shots, but a fundamental change in how he socialises and behaves. From your experience of him, is he likely to make that change?
posted by Pallas Athena at 4:30 PM on September 2, 2021 [13 favorites]
And the others I know of have not made that call lightly. These were relationships established over months to years, involving people who cared deeply for one another. But in a situation like this, caring isn't enough if it's not accompanied by action-- a simple, easy action to protect himself, you and everyone you both come into contact with.
Just to add another layer to this: as you know, although the vaccine gives some protection against the more severe effects of COVID, vaccinated people can still get and transmit the Delta variant. So if he grudgingly got his shots to keep you from breaking up with him, but continued to ignore precautions like masks and distancing, he would still be putting you at risk (and by extension, your students and your family).
So what would be required is not only those 2 vaccination shots, but a fundamental change in how he socialises and behaves. From your experience of him, is he likely to make that change?
posted by Pallas Athena at 4:30 PM on September 2, 2021 [13 favorites]
There is a vaccine against ending up married to or financially entangled with an asshole. The vaccine is not 100% effective, but it greatly reduces your risk.
You get it by unlearning the social conditioning that tells you the health of the relationship is All Your Job; that any stupid, dangerous choices a man makes are All Your Fault for failing to set your boundaries using the Exact Right Words and Tone; that his self-concept of being Smarter Than the Sheeple is more important than your health, because men have Fragile Egos, so you have to be a living buffer.
Your partner sounds like this type of man. You say you don’t live with him, so there is still time for an ounce of prevention instead of a ton of cure.
Get the vaccine.
posted by armeowda at 4:52 PM on September 2, 2021 [49 favorites]
You get it by unlearning the social conditioning that tells you the health of the relationship is All Your Job; that any stupid, dangerous choices a man makes are All Your Fault for failing to set your boundaries using the Exact Right Words and Tone; that his self-concept of being Smarter Than the Sheeple is more important than your health, because men have Fragile Egos, so you have to be a living buffer.
Your partner sounds like this type of man. You say you don’t live with him, so there is still time for an ounce of prevention instead of a ton of cure.
Get the vaccine.
posted by armeowda at 4:52 PM on September 2, 2021 [49 favorites]
It seems like such a ridiculous thing, to end a relationship because of this goddamn virus.
Because of his interaction with this virus, and his interaction with you about it, and the way his interaction with the virus puts you at risk and he doesn't care.
You can make any reason to break up sound silly if you say it's "about" its most trivial aspect! It seems silly to end a relationship over a phone, unless it's him breaking into your phone to spy on you. It seems silly to end a relationship over a salad, unless he deliberately put something you're allergic to in the salad to test whether you were making it up. Etcetera. It's not like you're breaking up with him because Covid happened.
I don't say this to pile on—I know a lot of people have pulled out this line—but to emphasize that what's relevant in a relationship is not only how someone behaves but how they behave towards you. That' s important, it matters, and you're allowed (encouraged!) to make decisions on that basis.
posted by babelfish at 5:13 PM on September 2, 2021 [12 favorites]
Because of his interaction with this virus, and his interaction with you about it, and the way his interaction with the virus puts you at risk and he doesn't care.
You can make any reason to break up sound silly if you say it's "about" its most trivial aspect! It seems silly to end a relationship over a phone, unless it's him breaking into your phone to spy on you. It seems silly to end a relationship over a salad, unless he deliberately put something you're allergic to in the salad to test whether you were making it up. Etcetera. It's not like you're breaking up with him because Covid happened.
I don't say this to pile on—I know a lot of people have pulled out this line—but to emphasize that what's relevant in a relationship is not only how someone behaves but how they behave towards you. That' s important, it matters, and you're allowed (encouraged!) to make decisions on that basis.
posted by babelfish at 5:13 PM on September 2, 2021 [12 favorites]
I'll join the chorus here saying that your concerns aren't ridiculous and it isn't your fault when someone else ignores boundaries and lies. You don't need better boundaries, you need a better partner. The comment above that noted how his behavior is harming your relationships with other people was insightful -- you want a partner who helps you have friendships and other kinds of relationships, not someone who works to make you more isolated.
posted by Dip Flash at 6:03 PM on September 2, 2021 [5 favorites]
posted by Dip Flash at 6:03 PM on September 2, 2021 [5 favorites]
I don’t know if anyone has mentioned this yet, but do a search on this site for the phrase “poop milkshake” to get more info on why you should break up with this guy.
posted by matildaben at 6:37 PM on September 2, 2021 [8 favorites]
posted by matildaben at 6:37 PM on September 2, 2021 [8 favorites]
I know you're focused on deciding what to do in the present but I wanted to let you know that the vast majority of single people I've seen on dating apps these past months are vaccinated and vocal about it. Dating can be hard, for sure, but what's harder than dating or being single is staying is a relationship with a selfish person who willing puts your own health and the health of your loved ones at stake. I would support you in whatever you choose but please don't let the fear of worrying you won't find better push you into staying with this asshole.
posted by smorgasbord at 6:38 PM on September 2, 2021 [9 favorites]
posted by smorgasbord at 6:38 PM on September 2, 2021 [9 favorites]
One-year-olds are great. Dump this guy and hang out with your friend and her kid.
posted by clew at 6:51 PM on September 2, 2021 [5 favorites]
posted by clew at 6:51 PM on September 2, 2021 [5 favorites]
Let’s change this to say - refusing to wear a condom, driving drunk, undercooking chicken, or not washing their hands after pooping (which I’ll be honest, I don’t think this dude does) … would you still stay with him? Would those be enough risk to your health and preferences?
Because we are in a global pandemic that has killed millions and disabled millions more.
Plus it’s not just your health. It’s your students, and their parents and grandparents. It’s not a little thing. It’s horrifying. And there are precautions and a vaccine that he is ignoring.
Get the fuck out and don’t look back.
posted by Crystalinne at 6:56 PM on September 2, 2021 [14 favorites]
Because we are in a global pandemic that has killed millions and disabled millions more.
Plus it’s not just your health. It’s your students, and their parents and grandparents. It’s not a little thing. It’s horrifying. And there are precautions and a vaccine that he is ignoring.
Get the fuck out and don’t look back.
posted by Crystalinne at 6:56 PM on September 2, 2021 [14 favorites]
I’m ignoring the vax issue simply to say that partners don’t usually cross state lines and take plane trips without telling each other. I’ve never heard of that! Wouldn’t work for me.
posted by kapers at 7:55 PM on September 2, 2021 [13 favorites]
posted by kapers at 7:55 PM on September 2, 2021 [13 favorites]
You breaking up with him would be the consequences of his multiple months of shitty actions: ignoring your concerns, your fears for yourself and your loved ones, and just generally being an utterly selfish jerk. Isn’t it time for willfully unvaccinated people to bear the brunt of some of this pandemic and have consequences for their choices? You’ve done 100x your due diligence in trying to get this guy to see the light. Break up and be free of his constant wearing you down and keeping you from people you love.
posted by Illuminated Clocks at 8:19 PM on September 2, 2021 [17 favorites]
posted by Illuminated Clocks at 8:19 PM on September 2, 2021 [17 favorites]
There are a lot of people attacking this guy. I think this is a simple decision. You chose to get vaxxed. He has chosen not to get vaxxed. He wants control over his body. You just have to decide if you can continue the relationship with him as it stands. You are not going to change your beliefs and he certainly is not going to change his. Apparently, vaccinated people are carriers as are, obviously, unvaccinated people. Is he a mask wearer? That might (or might not to you) change the calculus. Yes, he is interacting with people who may or may not be vaccinated. Unless you are staying in and not going to the grocery or to places where there are other unknown to you people, you are interacting with them too.
It seems like to a lot of people it is a simple decision. He is not vaccinated so DTMFA. I happen to think it is more complicated than that, but the vac / no-vax criteria is certainly one that can be justified.
If you think he can be persuaded to change his ways, go for it. If not, make a decision on whether you can live with the risk (and reward) associated with dating this person.
posted by AugustWest at 8:22 PM on September 2, 2021
It seems like to a lot of people it is a simple decision. He is not vaccinated so DTMFA. I happen to think it is more complicated than that, but the vac / no-vax criteria is certainly one that can be justified.
If you think he can be persuaded to change his ways, go for it. If not, make a decision on whether you can live with the risk (and reward) associated with dating this person.
posted by AugustWest at 8:22 PM on September 2, 2021
It is one thing to casually be in close proximity to an unvaccinated person at, say, the grocery store for a few minutes.
It is quite another to have someone who is unvaccinated staying overnight, in the house of someone who then is in close contact with (I am assuming) unvaccinated children all day.
I'm in Seattle. Washington State has both an ample supply of vaccines available, and a HUGE uptick in the Delta variant - to the point where both indoor and outdoor mask mandates are coming back. Hospitals are completely overwhelmed, all over the Pacific Northwest. This partner is not only not respecting your boundaries, but is putting your students at huge risk.
Thus I say, with extreme prejudice, DTMFA.
posted by spinifex23 at 11:29 PM on September 2, 2021 [10 favorites]
It is quite another to have someone who is unvaccinated staying overnight, in the house of someone who then is in close contact with (I am assuming) unvaccinated children all day.
I'm in Seattle. Washington State has both an ample supply of vaccines available, and a HUGE uptick in the Delta variant - to the point where both indoor and outdoor mask mandates are coming back. Hospitals are completely overwhelmed, all over the Pacific Northwest. This partner is not only not respecting your boundaries, but is putting your students at huge risk.
Thus I say, with extreme prejudice, DTMFA.
posted by spinifex23 at 11:29 PM on September 2, 2021 [10 favorites]
An ex and I split in March, because he wanted to expand our closed pod (me, him, and his roommate) to include three of his colleagues (and by function, their partners, roommates, etc.) so that he could work in-person with them without masks (unnecessarily -- it was a tech startup).
None of us were vacc-ed at the time, so I wasn't comfortable with it -- and after a couple fights he dumped me because I "valued comfort and security" too much.
I still think the way he ended things with me was shitty. And I really felt frustrated that this stupid virus broke something else important to me in my life. But for better or worse, Covid did expose a fundamental difference in our values, and I do think that it would have come to a head sooner or later. That said, it was hard -- and I'm sending you care as you navigate this decision. It doesn't sound like your partner has been respectful of your boundaries or your deeply valid desire to stay as safe as possible from this scary and dangerous virus.
posted by kylej at 12:02 AM on September 3, 2021 [18 favorites]
None of us were vacc-ed at the time, so I wasn't comfortable with it -- and after a couple fights he dumped me because I "valued comfort and security" too much.
I still think the way he ended things with me was shitty. And I really felt frustrated that this stupid virus broke something else important to me in my life. But for better or worse, Covid did expose a fundamental difference in our values, and I do think that it would have come to a head sooner or later. That said, it was hard -- and I'm sending you care as you navigate this decision. It doesn't sound like your partner has been respectful of your boundaries or your deeply valid desire to stay as safe as possible from this scary and dangerous virus.
posted by kylej at 12:02 AM on September 3, 2021 [18 favorites]
It seems like such a ridiculous thing, to end a relationship because of this goddamn virus.
1. This virus is essentially the defining force of our time, so no it is not at all ridiculous. Your fears and anxieties are founded in fact and entirely justified.
2. I think a lot of times there's one, sometimes seemingly small thing that causes a breakup, and at the time it might feel ridiculous, but later you realize it was that one thing that showed you all the flaws in your partner and the relationship. This is showing you how you two have a fundamental difference in how you see the world, which would be a big enough challenge as it is, but even worse, he disregards your boundaries and belittles your well-founded fears. I bet that once you break up, you will start to see other ways that played out in the relationship.
posted by lunasol at 12:06 AM on September 3, 2021 [15 favorites]
1. This virus is essentially the defining force of our time, so no it is not at all ridiculous. Your fears and anxieties are founded in fact and entirely justified.
2. I think a lot of times there's one, sometimes seemingly small thing that causes a breakup, and at the time it might feel ridiculous, but later you realize it was that one thing that showed you all the flaws in your partner and the relationship. This is showing you how you two have a fundamental difference in how you see the world, which would be a big enough challenge as it is, but even worse, he disregards your boundaries and belittles your well-founded fears. I bet that once you break up, you will start to see other ways that played out in the relationship.
posted by lunasol at 12:06 AM on September 3, 2021 [15 favorites]
I did it all wrong. I was hurt and annoyed and rude and too scientific and dismissive of his feelings and nastily compared his hesitance with the microchip people and forced the conversation instead of the gentle feminized care nudging we're all supposed to do. And then he came over two days later, late at night, and guilted me into letting him stay because he had early morning work in my neighborhood the next day!
The only thing you did wrong here was stating a boundary and then failing to follow through. And now he has reason to believe that he doesn't need to take any notice of your stated boundaries because you're not going to follow through.
So the next time he turns up on your doorstep late at night, the only conversation that needs to happen is "Are you fully vaxxed yet?" And if he says "No" then the door gets shut in his face and he hears "Come back when you are" and only "Come back when you are" from the other side of it. No need to persuade, or cajole, or inform, or plead, or any of that. Either he gets vaxxed or he's not allowed in your house. Totally his call which way that goes. End of.
posted by flabdablet at 12:30 AM on September 3, 2021 [2 favorites]
The only thing you did wrong here was stating a boundary and then failing to follow through. And now he has reason to believe that he doesn't need to take any notice of your stated boundaries because you're not going to follow through.
So the next time he turns up on your doorstep late at night, the only conversation that needs to happen is "Are you fully vaxxed yet?" And if he says "No" then the door gets shut in his face and he hears "Come back when you are" and only "Come back when you are" from the other side of it. No need to persuade, or cajole, or inform, or plead, or any of that. Either he gets vaxxed or he's not allowed in your house. Totally his call which way that goes. End of.
posted by flabdablet at 12:30 AM on September 3, 2021 [2 favorites]
This is not a small thing to end a relationship over. Irrespective of the fact that this a deadly contagious virus, a partner is supposed to care about your concerns even when they don’t share them. This is about love and respect. The person does not respect you. Time to go and find someone who does.
posted by cultureclash82 at 1:36 AM on September 3, 2021 [8 favorites]
posted by cultureclash82 at 1:36 AM on September 3, 2021 [8 favorites]
Many people have said many things about this relationship, and I'm here simply to add you don't even need a reason to break up. You could just break up. There doesn't have to be a neat well defined reason that a relationship, a thing of many moving parts of two or more dynamic human beings, decide not to be in a relationship anymore.
It sounds like this is a ton of work and little joy, regardless of why, or who, or how it got this way, regardless of any feelings before, it is okay to say enough is enough and I'm just done.
Take gentle care
posted by AlexiaSky at 1:47 AM on September 3, 2021 [9 favorites]
It sounds like this is a ton of work and little joy, regardless of why, or who, or how it got this way, regardless of any feelings before, it is okay to say enough is enough and I'm just done.
Take gentle care
posted by AlexiaSky at 1:47 AM on September 3, 2021 [9 favorites]
It seems like such a ridiculous thing, to end a relationship because of this goddamn virus.
It's not the virus. The two of you have a major values disconnect. You are concerned about your family and community; he is concerned about himself. Exclusively. Ugh. Dump him and find someone who also cares about community, and family, and YOU. Life is too short to waste it on a selfish dingdong.
Move on, friend. The world is big and there are lots of fabulous and wonderful people in it. Share your life with one of them. Or spend it enjoying your community and friends and family. Don't waste it on someone who Does Not Deserve your time or energy or mental space.
posted by lulu68 at 2:12 AM on September 3, 2021 [6 favorites]
It's not the virus. The two of you have a major values disconnect. You are concerned about your family and community; he is concerned about himself. Exclusively. Ugh. Dump him and find someone who also cares about community, and family, and YOU. Life is too short to waste it on a selfish dingdong.
Move on, friend. The world is big and there are lots of fabulous and wonderful people in it. Share your life with one of them. Or spend it enjoying your community and friends and family. Don't waste it on someone who Does Not Deserve your time or energy or mental space.
posted by lulu68 at 2:12 AM on September 3, 2021 [6 favorites]
You just need to ask yourself, "do I really need two a**holes or is one enough?". Good luck!
posted by Coaticass at 2:54 AM on September 3, 2021 [2 favorites]
posted by Coaticass at 2:54 AM on September 3, 2021 [2 favorites]
It seems like such a ridiculous thing, to end a relationship because of this goddamn virus.
Rephrase: It seems like such a ridiculous thing to end a relationship over a disagreement involving a life-and-death situation resulting from the biggest global disaster in the last 100 years.
This virus is serious. Your partner isn't.
posted by mmoncur at 3:40 AM on September 3, 2021 [16 favorites]
Rephrase: It seems like such a ridiculous thing to end a relationship over a disagreement involving a life-and-death situation resulting from the biggest global disaster in the last 100 years.
This virus is serious. Your partner isn't.
posted by mmoncur at 3:40 AM on September 3, 2021 [16 favorites]
DTMFA with extreme prejudice. If there was no pandemic he would still be a narcissistic asshole.
posted by spitbull at 3:59 AM on September 3, 2021 [10 favorites]
posted by spitbull at 3:59 AM on September 3, 2021 [10 favorites]
I initially misread this as "parent is an anti-vaxxer", not "partner."
That's because this seems less like a partnership, where you both have got each others' backs, and more like he's making his own rules and expecting you to conform even when you don't want to, like a parent to a young child. At best, you're his fuckbuddy.
I'm sorry to be so blunt, but I don't see that this guy cares for you even one-tenth as much as you care for him, and I really wish someone had been that blunt with me when I was in a similar situation, only without the added stress of a global pandemic.
my boundaries have been seriously confusing from the very start
They haven't, though. Your boundaries have been really clear, and he's been really clear in disrespecting them every time. In March 2020, you were "incredibly nervous" being around him but he made you feel you were silly. Then he took a high-risk multi-day trip without any risk-mitigating behaviors, without telling you. Then he made YOU feel guilty again because you were insufficiently gentle (see below) and steamrolled you into letting him stay the night because it was more convenient for him.
the gentle feminized care nudging we're all supposed to do.
Yup. Here it is. This is patriarchal bullshit. I have fallen into this trap myself, and I know it's hard to pull yourself out of it, but this language has no place in your self-talk. A feminine presence is not and should not be gentle and nudging, not when you're talking about the death of nearly 5 million people worldwide.
You want a feminine metaphor, go with "mama bear." And everyone knows, you don't mess with mama bear.
posted by basalganglia at 4:39 AM on September 3, 2021 [13 favorites]
That's because this seems less like a partnership, where you both have got each others' backs, and more like he's making his own rules and expecting you to conform even when you don't want to, like a parent to a young child. At best, you're his fuckbuddy.
I'm sorry to be so blunt, but I don't see that this guy cares for you even one-tenth as much as you care for him, and I really wish someone had been that blunt with me when I was in a similar situation, only without the added stress of a global pandemic.
my boundaries have been seriously confusing from the very start
They haven't, though. Your boundaries have been really clear, and he's been really clear in disrespecting them every time. In March 2020, you were "incredibly nervous" being around him but he made you feel you were silly. Then he took a high-risk multi-day trip without any risk-mitigating behaviors, without telling you. Then he made YOU feel guilty again because you were insufficiently gentle (see below) and steamrolled you into letting him stay the night because it was more convenient for him.
the gentle feminized care nudging we're all supposed to do.
Yup. Here it is. This is patriarchal bullshit. I have fallen into this trap myself, and I know it's hard to pull yourself out of it, but this language has no place in your self-talk. A feminine presence is not and should not be gentle and nudging, not when you're talking about the death of nearly 5 million people worldwide.
You want a feminine metaphor, go with "mama bear." And everyone knows, you don't mess with mama bear.
posted by basalganglia at 4:39 AM on September 3, 2021 [13 favorites]
Apparently, vaccinated people are carriers as are, obviously, unvaccinated people.
Vaccinated people CAN be carriers of virus...at MUCH lower rates than the unvaccinated. This is no kind of shrug.
posted by tiny frying pan at 5:31 AM on September 3, 2021 [15 favorites]
Vaccinated people CAN be carriers of virus...at MUCH lower rates than the unvaccinated. This is no kind of shrug.
posted by tiny frying pan at 5:31 AM on September 3, 2021 [15 favorites]
If you are an adult in a committed, mature relationship with an intimate partner, it is non-negotiable that you act in a way that respects and affirms each other's lives and beliefs. This is not happening here. As others have pointed out, this isn't like disagreeing over favourite movies or foods or whether the laundry goes in the hamper or the floor, which can be negotiated or compromised with. It's not even a question over which political party to support or charity to donate to (which are more serious questions over shared values but usually don't have an immediate, dramatic impact on how you live your day to day).
He has revealed himself to have values and beliefs that diametrically are opposed to yours, and the impact of these beliefs are causing immediate impact on your other interpersonal relationships. This is both (1) a fundamental disagreement over lifestyle and values that also (2) has a significant real-world impact on your life. Even if his beliefs are honestly and sincerely held (they're not, and he's wrong), to disregard your beliefs and wishes so blatantly is a dealbreaker in my books.
I am very glad to see you do not live together and no mention of kids, so I think as sad as it is, it is a no-brainer. Dump him, be honest why, and move on. You are better off without him in every way.
posted by fortitude25 at 6:48 AM on September 3, 2021 [7 favorites]
He has revealed himself to have values and beliefs that diametrically are opposed to yours, and the impact of these beliefs are causing immediate impact on your other interpersonal relationships. This is both (1) a fundamental disagreement over lifestyle and values that also (2) has a significant real-world impact on your life. Even if his beliefs are honestly and sincerely held (they're not, and he's wrong), to disregard your beliefs and wishes so blatantly is a dealbreaker in my books.
I am very glad to see you do not live together and no mention of kids, so I think as sad as it is, it is a no-brainer. Dump him, be honest why, and move on. You are better off without him in every way.
posted by fortitude25 at 6:48 AM on September 3, 2021 [7 favorites]
You probably don't need to hear one more voice in the "dump him, because his selfishness is putting you at risk, and he doesn't respect your boundaries even if it didn't" chorus, but in case you do here's mine.
posted by Gelatin at 8:00 AM on September 3, 2021 [4 favorites]
posted by Gelatin at 8:00 AM on September 3, 2021 [4 favorites]
Here's the part that seems red-flaggy to e:
"I did it all wrong. I was hurt and annoyed and rude and too scientific and dismissive of his feelings and nastily compared his hesitance with the microchip people and forced the conversation instead of the gentle feminized care nudging we're all supposed to do. And then he came over two days later, late at night, and guilted me into letting him stay because he had early morning work in my neighborhood the next day! Still unvaxed, of course, and still is as of today."
If you feel bad yourself about aggressively arguing and pushing him and THEN he still just ignores that and pushes his way into your house in DIRECT OPPOSITION to exactly what you asked him for... uh, he's not hearing you. That's just objectively bad communication and/or a clear lack of caring b/c he doesn't seem to give a shit as to what you say, feel, or ask of him.
posted by RajahKing at 8:14 AM on September 3, 2021 [8 favorites]
"I did it all wrong. I was hurt and annoyed and rude and too scientific and dismissive of his feelings and nastily compared his hesitance with the microchip people and forced the conversation instead of the gentle feminized care nudging we're all supposed to do. And then he came over two days later, late at night, and guilted me into letting him stay because he had early morning work in my neighborhood the next day! Still unvaxed, of course, and still is as of today."
If you feel bad yourself about aggressively arguing and pushing him and THEN he still just ignores that and pushes his way into your house in DIRECT OPPOSITION to exactly what you asked him for... uh, he's not hearing you. That's just objectively bad communication and/or a clear lack of caring b/c he doesn't seem to give a shit as to what you say, feel, or ask of him.
posted by RajahKing at 8:14 AM on September 3, 2021 [8 favorites]
You're dodging a bullet here.
This is who he is. This is who he would have been with no global pandemic.
If he came to the door with the Mayo Clinic staff, proof of covid-19 vaccination, and a year's supply of testing kits to prove he isn't currently having a breakthrough infection ... I'd still pass on listening to him.
Because this is who he is.
posted by TrishaU at 8:45 AM on September 3, 2021 [3 favorites]
This is who he is. This is who he would have been with no global pandemic.
If he came to the door with the Mayo Clinic staff, proof of covid-19 vaccination, and a year's supply of testing kits to prove he isn't currently having a breakthrough infection ... I'd still pass on listening to him.
Because this is who he is.
posted by TrishaU at 8:45 AM on September 3, 2021 [3 favorites]
No one is worth this level of frustration and stewing and bad vibes. Feeling steamrolled? Pushing aside your needs and rules for your own home and safety for his convenience? Getting in the way of enjoying life and the deep and meaningful relationships you've built over decades of your life?
No one is worth that level of trouble, not even a saint. This man is no saint.
posted by Goblin Barbarian at 8:47 AM on September 3, 2021 [10 favorites]
No one is worth that level of trouble, not even a saint. This man is no saint.
posted by Goblin Barbarian at 8:47 AM on September 3, 2021 [10 favorites]
I'd like to thank you posting your story because I have been wondering for more than 500 days about the couples I see where one wears a mask and one doesn't and been imagining what those relationship dynamics are like.
If I was in your shoes I would ask myself "If he won't do this for me (or even for himself) right now in a serious global pandemic what else won't he do for me in the future?" because a couple of barely noticeable pin pricks and maybe a day or two of feel crappy ain't no big thing at all compared to what eventually comes down the pipe in most relationships.
posted by srboisvert at 2:18 PM on September 3, 2021 [12 favorites]
If I was in your shoes I would ask myself "If he won't do this for me (or even for himself) right now in a serious global pandemic what else won't he do for me in the future?" because a couple of barely noticeable pin pricks and maybe a day or two of feel crappy ain't no big thing at all compared to what eventually comes down the pipe in most relationships.
posted by srboisvert at 2:18 PM on September 3, 2021 [12 favorites]
Advising a stranger on the internet something as definitive as "dump him" has always seemed risky to me. What is the other side of the story? What are the details or mitigating factors I don't know about?
In this case I literally cannot think of any hypothetical left-out facts that could justify this guy, or your deciding to stay with him.
He has shown a phenomenal lack of respect for:
health and safety
honesty in a relationship
you
Please do two things (equally important). End this toxic relationship. Resist the temptation to blame yourself for something that wasn't your fault.
posted by wjm at 12:17 AM on September 4, 2021 [1 favorite]
In this case I literally cannot think of any hypothetical left-out facts that could justify this guy, or your deciding to stay with him.
He has shown a phenomenal lack of respect for:
health and safety
honesty in a relationship
you
Please do two things (equally important). End this toxic relationship. Resist the temptation to blame yourself for something that wasn't your fault.
posted by wjm at 12:17 AM on September 4, 2021 [1 favorite]
You are allowed to leave someone just because they're staggeringly idiotic, remember.
posted by tillsbury at 2:25 PM on September 4, 2021 [1 favorite]
posted by tillsbury at 2:25 PM on September 4, 2021 [1 favorite]
I happen to be closer to your boyfriend re: COVID vaccines, but I think you both would be happier with someone closer to your own beliefs. I hate what COVID has done to relationships.
posted by summerstorm at 7:15 PM on September 4, 2021
posted by summerstorm at 7:15 PM on September 4, 2021
a large part of me doesn't want to abandon someone I care about to go get Covid, knows that my boundaries have been seriously confusing from the very start (which he pointed out!) and know that my anger and frustration and fear are confusing and probably look erratic to someone who sincerely believes the vaccine won't do much good
"Abandon" him to go get Covid -- I don't understand, are you saying he is somehow less likely to get Covid if you continue dating him? It seems unlikely that you dating him is having any sort of protective effect.
You are not under some sort of obligation to keep dating him because he thinks your boundaries are confusing and erratic. In fact, breaking up will mean you don't have to spend any more of your time arguing about this issue.
It seems like such a ridiculous thing, to end a relationship because of this goddamn virus.
You are allowed to end a relationship for any reason you want. Is it really because of the virus, or is it because this situation showed you don't share each other's views and values on some things where it is important to you that your partner have the same values?
Also, I feel a sense of responsibility to helping him change his mind and get vaxxed for the entire community, not just for me!
You have been spending a lot of time on "helping" him with no results. This is not benefiting your community! If you want to help your community, check into volunteer opportunities for community vaccine outreach projects, volunteer at your local food bank, volunteer to help run errands or do childcare for health care practitioners. Donate blood, help elderly people who aren't good with computers sign up online for health services, volunteer to give people rides to get vaccinated. There are lots of options out there if you want to help your community, lots of options where you will see a very real impact your first day helping. Even if you need to be paid to work to to support your community (because I realize that not everyone has the luxury of volunteering), in many places there are not enough school bus drivers, not enough substitute teachers, not enough poll workers. There are lots of ways to help that aren't continuing to date some stubborn guy for the supposed benefit to the community.
posted by yohko at 12:02 AM on September 6, 2021 [3 favorites]
"Abandon" him to go get Covid -- I don't understand, are you saying he is somehow less likely to get Covid if you continue dating him? It seems unlikely that you dating him is having any sort of protective effect.
You are not under some sort of obligation to keep dating him because he thinks your boundaries are confusing and erratic. In fact, breaking up will mean you don't have to spend any more of your time arguing about this issue.
It seems like such a ridiculous thing, to end a relationship because of this goddamn virus.
You are allowed to end a relationship for any reason you want. Is it really because of the virus, or is it because this situation showed you don't share each other's views and values on some things where it is important to you that your partner have the same values?
Also, I feel a sense of responsibility to helping him change his mind and get vaxxed for the entire community, not just for me!
You have been spending a lot of time on "helping" him with no results. This is not benefiting your community! If you want to help your community, check into volunteer opportunities for community vaccine outreach projects, volunteer at your local food bank, volunteer to help run errands or do childcare for health care practitioners. Donate blood, help elderly people who aren't good with computers sign up online for health services, volunteer to give people rides to get vaccinated. There are lots of options out there if you want to help your community, lots of options where you will see a very real impact your first day helping. Even if you need to be paid to work to to support your community (because I realize that not everyone has the luxury of volunteering), in many places there are not enough school bus drivers, not enough substitute teachers, not enough poll workers. There are lots of ways to help that aren't continuing to date some stubborn guy for the supposed benefit to the community.
posted by yohko at 12:02 AM on September 6, 2021 [3 favorites]
Even if you just cemented new boundaries today they're your boundaries and you can announce them today and it's his responsibility as a partner to respect them.
posted by bendy at 8:58 PM on September 28, 2021
posted by bendy at 8:58 PM on September 28, 2021
This thread is closed to new comments.
Would it feel less ridiculous to end a relationship because someone is blatantly ignoring your boundaries? Because that's what's happening.
Although, to be fair you haven't been enforcing those boundaries, so that may be something to think about. But this isn't really "about" the virus, it is about you having a disconnect where you say that there's something that bothers you and he's all "pfft, that's silly" and you just say "...uh, okay....I guess you're right...."
That's the problem you're having. Covid is just the catalyst that is bringing it to the foreground.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 1:40 PM on September 2, 2021 [194 favorites]