Found a local Nazi online. What next?
April 21, 2021 12:33 AM Subscribe
On the kinky social site Fetlife, I stumbled upon a man in my city who attends events and meets partners here. He's also a Nazi. What should I do next, ethically and practically?
Context
- Fetlife is essentially Facebook for the kinky. People meet up in bars, and find partners. I have been on Fet for years (however I'm not a big part of the local "scene" and don't have any close friends on Fet). In my experience, the vast majority of Fet users are normal(ish), young, alternative, and more left than right.
- I'm able to take care of my online privacy. I don't want to put my physical safety at risk.
His pictures on Fet show he has:
- tattoo of Norse runes which spell out the motto of the SS
- blood group tattoo on left underarm as per the distinctive SS custom
- several tattoos of the Odal rune
He is 30 and the tattoos are recent. Plenty of "fascist-adjacent" signs (survivalism, WW2 history, combat aesthetic). No evidence of membership of any real-life far-right groups. He seems not-too-bright: it was easy to piece together some real-life personal details.
My starting-point
- I've absorbed, partly from Mefi, the idea that Nazis don't disappear by themselves: you have to kick them out of the bar, and that it's not always someone else's problem. He is attending kink events in my city and meeting partners.
- I don't have a history of activism, and I'm not everyone else's self-appointed protector. But excluding Nazis from communities and generally making life harder for them feels like a social good.
- I doubt that many local Fet users would be on the lookout for symbols of neo-Nazis (and certainly, few would spend time transliterating runes to find the SS motto). It's not somewhere with a big history of either the far-right or antifa/activism. He could easily be seen as a somewhat-edgy "Dom" with nerdy interests and a military aesthetic.
What I've done already
1. Reported him to Fetlife as per their terms of use. However, Fetlife has very permissive policies and lax enforcement. So he may or may not get banned.
2. Messaged the handful of local users he indicates he is real-life play partners with. He is a "Dom" and they are "subs". Their profiles seemed perfectly normal (also, one is of an ethnicity targeted by the Nazis). I DMed from a throwaway alt account, and just neutrally set out the points above re tattoos. This seemed like a good thing to do, tho I was aware it might not go well. They responded dismissively ("you don't know him, I do"/"he just likes runes"), and he removed some tattoo pictures shortly afterward - so I guess they know what he is like or don't want to hear.
Questions for AskMe
I feel I need some advice and guidance, not having any experience of dealing with Nazis or any close friends involved in Fet. What should I do next? Thoughts so far:
- doing nothing - obviously this is the easy answer
- make it harder for him to participate in the community IRL - e.g. posting callouts in meetup group threads, messaging event organisers. Do you have any advice for making this successful? Local event organisers are just normal early-20s people who make a bar booking, they probably haven't encountered any more Nazis than I have.
- real life consequences - e.g. digging further into his identity to find an employer and make them aware. Is this a good idea, ethically and practically?
- trying to make contact with local antifa to share info - I have only the vaguest ideas about how to go about this (if local antifa even really exist to any meaningful extent).
In all of these courses of action, I would protect my real-life identity by acting anonymously.
I exclude contacting the police. Having Nazi tattoos isn't a crime, and Fetlife and the police don't mix. I don't live in Germany.
Context
- Fetlife is essentially Facebook for the kinky. People meet up in bars, and find partners. I have been on Fet for years (however I'm not a big part of the local "scene" and don't have any close friends on Fet). In my experience, the vast majority of Fet users are normal(ish), young, alternative, and more left than right.
- I'm able to take care of my online privacy. I don't want to put my physical safety at risk.
His pictures on Fet show he has:
- tattoo of Norse runes which spell out the motto of the SS
- blood group tattoo on left underarm as per the distinctive SS custom
- several tattoos of the Odal rune
He is 30 and the tattoos are recent. Plenty of "fascist-adjacent" signs (survivalism, WW2 history, combat aesthetic). No evidence of membership of any real-life far-right groups. He seems not-too-bright: it was easy to piece together some real-life personal details.
My starting-point
- I've absorbed, partly from Mefi, the idea that Nazis don't disappear by themselves: you have to kick them out of the bar, and that it's not always someone else's problem. He is attending kink events in my city and meeting partners.
- I don't have a history of activism, and I'm not everyone else's self-appointed protector. But excluding Nazis from communities and generally making life harder for them feels like a social good.
- I doubt that many local Fet users would be on the lookout for symbols of neo-Nazis (and certainly, few would spend time transliterating runes to find the SS motto). It's not somewhere with a big history of either the far-right or antifa/activism. He could easily be seen as a somewhat-edgy "Dom" with nerdy interests and a military aesthetic.
What I've done already
1. Reported him to Fetlife as per their terms of use. However, Fetlife has very permissive policies and lax enforcement. So he may or may not get banned.
2. Messaged the handful of local users he indicates he is real-life play partners with. He is a "Dom" and they are "subs". Their profiles seemed perfectly normal (also, one is of an ethnicity targeted by the Nazis). I DMed from a throwaway alt account, and just neutrally set out the points above re tattoos. This seemed like a good thing to do, tho I was aware it might not go well. They responded dismissively ("you don't know him, I do"/"he just likes runes"), and he removed some tattoo pictures shortly afterward - so I guess they know what he is like or don't want to hear.
Questions for AskMe
I feel I need some advice and guidance, not having any experience of dealing with Nazis or any close friends involved in Fet. What should I do next? Thoughts so far:
- doing nothing - obviously this is the easy answer
- make it harder for him to participate in the community IRL - e.g. posting callouts in meetup group threads, messaging event organisers. Do you have any advice for making this successful? Local event organisers are just normal early-20s people who make a bar booking, they probably haven't encountered any more Nazis than I have.
- real life consequences - e.g. digging further into his identity to find an employer and make them aware. Is this a good idea, ethically and practically?
- trying to make contact with local antifa to share info - I have only the vaguest ideas about how to go about this (if local antifa even really exist to any meaningful extent).
In all of these courses of action, I would protect my real-life identity by acting anonymously.
I exclude contacting the police. Having Nazi tattoos isn't a crime, and Fetlife and the police don't mix. I don't live in Germany.
I frankly find some of your actions thus far creepy, such as taking it upon yourself to message his partners.
I would suggest refocusing your efforts on some actual activist work rather than continuing to obsess over this one guy.
posted by Flock of Cynthiabirds at 3:56 AM on April 21, 2021 [37 favorites]
I would suggest refocusing your efforts on some actual activist work rather than continuing to obsess over this one guy.
posted by Flock of Cynthiabirds at 3:56 AM on April 21, 2021 [37 favorites]
What? You have to prevent Nazis from having sex? I think this is unsettling but it's not your responsibility. It's up to HIS partners to vet whether he's a person they want to associate with at all.
posted by tiny frying pan at 5:07 AM on April 21, 2021 [5 favorites]
posted by tiny frying pan at 5:07 AM on April 21, 2021 [5 favorites]
I think your actions are fine and Nazis should be afraid to be Nazi in public. I don't know of any places where you could take this further, though.
posted by ambrosen at 5:28 AM on April 21, 2021 [56 favorites]
posted by ambrosen at 5:28 AM on April 21, 2021 [56 favorites]
As a counterpoint to the initial comments in the thread, I think that what you've done so far is the right thing, and pretty brave.
Anecdata: a friend of mine was involved in kink and she and her partner would advertise for guys on Craigslist, back when CL still allowed you to do that. One time, a guy messaged her and she also got another message, presumably automated, from an anonymous account, saying "if this guy contacts you then don't respond" with details of his history of abusive behaviour to kinky people in their city. She showed me the message and seemed to be pretty appreciative to have received it, and I'm going to go ahead and assume that they didn't respond to the creepy guy as a result.
"This guy has Nazi tattoos" is information that it seems reasonable to share with potential partners, given that Nazis are hateful and actually dangerous to people. What the potential partners do with the information is up to them. And frankly, there's nothing wrong with what consenting adults do in private, as long as nobody is non-consensually harmed. But you're not being a prude, here: being a Nazi is not something harmless. This guy isn't dressing up in an SS uniform in private as a kink, he has actual Nazi tattoos and it's not a huge leap to assume that he has actual Nazi beliefs.
posted by chappell, ambrose at 5:31 AM on April 21, 2021 [35 favorites]
Anecdata: a friend of mine was involved in kink and she and her partner would advertise for guys on Craigslist, back when CL still allowed you to do that. One time, a guy messaged her and she also got another message, presumably automated, from an anonymous account, saying "if this guy contacts you then don't respond" with details of his history of abusive behaviour to kinky people in their city. She showed me the message and seemed to be pretty appreciative to have received it, and I'm going to go ahead and assume that they didn't respond to the creepy guy as a result.
"This guy has Nazi tattoos" is information that it seems reasonable to share with potential partners, given that Nazis are hateful and actually dangerous to people. What the potential partners do with the information is up to them. And frankly, there's nothing wrong with what consenting adults do in private, as long as nobody is non-consensually harmed. But you're not being a prude, here: being a Nazi is not something harmless. This guy isn't dressing up in an SS uniform in private as a kink, he has actual Nazi tattoos and it's not a huge leap to assume that he has actual Nazi beliefs.
posted by chappell, ambrose at 5:31 AM on April 21, 2021 [35 favorites]
I would also urge you to stop. Your actions so far seem reckless and some of the proposed courses of action ("trying to make contact with local antifa") even moreso. He might be a Nazi, he might be someone with poor judgment that thinks these symbols are cool and he can play with the symbolism. I don't know, and neither do you.
The fact that one of his play partners is "of an ethnicity targeted by the Nazis" suggests that he might not be a card-carrying Nazi/white supremacist. (I'm not suggesting that white supremacists can't / don't have sex with people they otherwise hate, but there's approximately zero chance this partner didn't notice the tats and take them into account.)
BTW, you *think* you can take care of your identity and so forth, but your actions and proposed actions are crossing some ethical and legal boundaries. Keep it up and this fellow might start digging into you and go for legal or extra-legal reprisals. If you follow through on things like calling him out in threads or to local organizers you could be crossing some lines for slander and/or libel. Leave it be.
posted by jzb at 5:33 AM on April 21, 2021 [7 favorites]
The fact that one of his play partners is "of an ethnicity targeted by the Nazis" suggests that he might not be a card-carrying Nazi/white supremacist. (I'm not suggesting that white supremacists can't / don't have sex with people they otherwise hate, but there's approximately zero chance this partner didn't notice the tats and take them into account.)
BTW, you *think* you can take care of your identity and so forth, but your actions and proposed actions are crossing some ethical and legal boundaries. Keep it up and this fellow might start digging into you and go for legal or extra-legal reprisals. If you follow through on things like calling him out in threads or to local organizers you could be crossing some lines for slander and/or libel. Leave it be.
posted by jzb at 5:33 AM on April 21, 2021 [7 favorites]
I think kicking Nazis out of communities is a good idea, and I even think that discouraging people from having sex with Nazis is a good idea, but it doesn't sound like you're enough of an active member of this community for you to effect this change (and a social media site is not always exactly a community anyway). Like, if you are going to events that he goes to, you have standing to say to the organizers of the events, "Hey, this dude is a bad news Nazi and I don't want him at events." But if you're just reaching out to strangers about things you wouldn't be involved in otherwise it's pretty tricky.
posted by mskyle at 5:33 AM on April 21, 2021 [18 favorites]
posted by mskyle at 5:33 AM on April 21, 2021 [18 favorites]
Local event organisers are just normal early-20s people who make a bar booking, they probably haven't encountered any more Nazis than I have.
Are there any codes of practice governing events? It has become much more common for event organizers to post a Code of Conduct. At a minimum this could require not displaying any hate symbols or messages. I would expect any organization of goodwill to have infrastructure for this. If this web community isn’t interested in setting standards for participation, I feel like they might be kinda garbagey. Platforms need to be accountable for what they enable - any of ‘em, not just Facebook.
posted by Miko at 5:58 AM on April 21, 2021 [4 favorites]
Are there any codes of practice governing events? It has become much more common for event organizers to post a Code of Conduct. At a minimum this could require not displaying any hate symbols or messages. I would expect any organization of goodwill to have infrastructure for this. If this web community isn’t interested in setting standards for participation, I feel like they might be kinda garbagey. Platforms need to be accountable for what they enable - any of ‘em, not just Facebook.
posted by Miko at 5:58 AM on April 21, 2021 [4 favorites]
You're probably more interested in the practical advice you're getting here, but just to belabour the point:
The question you need to ask yourself is how comfortable you would be in a world with fewer Nazis, if the cost of this state of affairs was "some people who chose to get Nazi tattoos for reasons entirely unrelated to Naziism are unfairly discriminated against".
Speaking personally, I'd be very comfortable in that world.
My reasoning here is made even easier by the fact that I don't believe the second group of people innocently sporting Nazi tattoos actually exist.
And even if, for the sake of argument, there are nice, tolerant people who happen to have a fetish for getting Nazi tattoos: these people are outnumbered by orders of magnitude by actual Nazis, and so it's overwhelmingly probable that you've simply found a Nazi on a fetish site, rather than someone whose fetish is being a Nazi even though they aren't really.
posted by chappell, ambrose at 6:08 AM on April 21, 2021 [37 favorites]
The question you need to ask yourself is how comfortable you would be in a world with fewer Nazis, if the cost of this state of affairs was "some people who chose to get Nazi tattoos for reasons entirely unrelated to Naziism are unfairly discriminated against".
Speaking personally, I'd be very comfortable in that world.
My reasoning here is made even easier by the fact that I don't believe the second group of people innocently sporting Nazi tattoos actually exist.
And even if, for the sake of argument, there are nice, tolerant people who happen to have a fetish for getting Nazi tattoos: these people are outnumbered by orders of magnitude by actual Nazis, and so it's overwhelmingly probable that you've simply found a Nazi on a fetish site, rather than someone whose fetish is being a Nazi even though they aren't really.
posted by chappell, ambrose at 6:08 AM on April 21, 2021 [37 favorites]
Do not try to contact this person's employer. I think a normal person would be very, VERY angry about some rando trying to get them fired. If this person is a NAZI - he is necessarily of low moral character, so there's no telling what he might do if he confronted you and it would be easy for him to track you down since you're local and contacted people he knows. So, no, not a good idea practically. Morally, there's a chance you don't know the whole story. It's a long story, but I once became convinced that a neighbor was an animal abuser and I thought I had very good, obvious evidence, but when I went to talk to the man, that was not the case at all. If you really want to be brave, maybe contact the man himself and see if you can get the full story.
posted by Jess the Mess at 6:11 AM on April 21, 2021 [7 favorites]
posted by Jess the Mess at 6:11 AM on April 21, 2021 [7 favorites]
There are a lot, a LOT of people out there with Nazi kinks as part of the military kink subset. I don't like it; I think it's gross; it's triggering for family history reasons; I think people have the right to do it, and it doesn't correlate to these people being irl neo-nazis or involved in any kind of Nazism outside the bedroom. The blood group tattoo is creepy as shit and personally pushes at my suspension of disbelief that this guy could be someone with an edgy kink or stupid past, he would be on my suspicious list immediately and probably until he got rid of those tatts, but unfortunately the kink context really blurs this in ways it wouldn't if someone was showing off the same ink at a public protest. As someone who has both monitored abusive people in kink communities and has some experience with people who track down and expose Nazis, I think the best thing you can do here is to watch and wait. Be present in your local kink community and actually get a feel for what's going on with this person before trying to out or expose anyone. If he's a real Nazi, an abusive dom, or any other kind of missing stair, then yes, speak out about him, but if you want to do the work of taking on abusers in a local kink scene, you need a solid foundation to do it. ambrose chappelle is right that you're being brave for not ignoring this, but the person who emailed his friend letting her know about her prospective partner's abuse history knew a lot more about that abuser than "has red flag tattoos." If you're going to do this kind of work, do it from a place of knowledge.
- real life consequences - e.g. digging further into his identity to find an employer and make them aware. Is this a good idea, ethically and practically?
Bad idea on both counts. Please don't try to contact this guy's employer or to otherwise doxx him, if for no other reason because you sound so new at this that it doesn't sound like it would be safe for you. If this was someone you'd spotted that underarm tattoo on when he was counterprotesting a local BLM event, it would be pretty clear, but the ambiguity of the kink context and the lack of any other real life information lands this all the way onto an "absolutely not ok." Ethically speaking, bringing someone's sexual life and unsavory but consensual kinks to their employer is pretty appalling.
"Contact local antifa" is something that sounds vague enough that again, I worry you're very very new at this particular kind of community safety work. I would encourage you to check out antifash gordon and other leftist OSINT folks on twitter or to attend a workshop-- they mostly do this for local militia members and violent law enforcement, and can give you a good idea of how to do this sensibly and safely.
posted by moonlight on vermont at 6:38 AM on April 21, 2021 [13 favorites]
- real life consequences - e.g. digging further into his identity to find an employer and make them aware. Is this a good idea, ethically and practically?
Bad idea on both counts. Please don't try to contact this guy's employer or to otherwise doxx him, if for no other reason because you sound so new at this that it doesn't sound like it would be safe for you. If this was someone you'd spotted that underarm tattoo on when he was counterprotesting a local BLM event, it would be pretty clear, but the ambiguity of the kink context and the lack of any other real life information lands this all the way onto an "absolutely not ok." Ethically speaking, bringing someone's sexual life and unsavory but consensual kinks to their employer is pretty appalling.
"Contact local antifa" is something that sounds vague enough that again, I worry you're very very new at this particular kind of community safety work. I would encourage you to check out antifash gordon and other leftist OSINT folks on twitter or to attend a workshop-- they mostly do this for local militia members and violent law enforcement, and can give you a good idea of how to do this sensibly and safely.
posted by moonlight on vermont at 6:38 AM on April 21, 2021 [13 favorites]
There are a lot of activists doing this type of important work (revealing and deplatforming Nazis). It may be best to refer this info to them. I say this because it's best to leave this to the "professionals", so to speak, both for your own safety and the safety of others. Memail me if you'd like more info.
posted by nightrecordings at 6:43 AM on April 21, 2021 [20 favorites]
posted by nightrecordings at 6:43 AM on April 21, 2021 [20 favorites]
Doing nothing is not necessarily the easy way out.
You're considering calling the local chapter of Antifa to...to what? Beat him up?
I am not sure to whom you are obliged to pursue this further. You have already contacted his known associates on the site. If you feel obliged to yourself to pursue this further, only you can decide what makes you comfortable and what is 'enough' when you do it.
posted by AugustWest at 7:25 AM on April 21, 2021 [2 favorites]
You're considering calling the local chapter of Antifa to...to what? Beat him up?
I am not sure to whom you are obliged to pursue this further. You have already contacted his known associates on the site. If you feel obliged to yourself to pursue this further, only you can decide what makes you comfortable and what is 'enough' when you do it.
posted by AugustWest at 7:25 AM on April 21, 2021 [2 favorites]
As someone who has worked on deplatforming folks in a number of communities I am part of, here is an unfortunate truth.
Friends of abusers, Nazis, and racists are very resistant to seeing the reality of their friend. And, typically they will move to defend their abusing, Nazi, or racist friend if he is called out by someone they do not have a stronger friendship with. This is mostly likely the phenomenon that you encountered when contacting his current real-life play partners. I understand your naive desire to get them this information, but their response is textbook.
In order to deplatform, you must have a lever. If you were very good friends with one of his causal play partners, that might have been enough of a lever. But, as someone unknown to them, it was most unlikely your logical evidence could break through their emotional experience.
So, where do you have a lever? I think one area is as a member of the local kink community. You can appeal to Fetlife through their official processes, but as you say, the community guidelines are quite loose. I think, as others have stated, actual gatherings have more potential for change. Contacting organizers and asking them if they are comfortable with a person sporting Nazi tattoos at their event? If they say they are (in other words), let them know you will be making their acceptance publicly known. If they say they are not, let them know about this guy as ask them to ban him.
Where else do you have a lever? In my experience, the kink community is usually quite small locally. Start talking to your trusted friends about this guy. Your friends will be more likely to look at the evidence objectively. Some of them might have closer connections to event organizers than you do. Some of them may be friends with folks who have had a less positive interaction with this guy than the acknowledged play partners you contacted.
As many have said, there will most likely be consequences to any actions you take. He will discover who you are. He may take action against you, including making your fetishes public, contacting your family/employer, etc. If you are not up for that, you might not be the right person to take this on. But, if you share what you have found with your trusted friends, one of them might be in a better position to do so. Someone who is living their kink life very publicly is in less danger of having that used against them.
posted by hworth at 7:38 AM on April 21, 2021 [15 favorites]
Friends of abusers, Nazis, and racists are very resistant to seeing the reality of their friend. And, typically they will move to defend their abusing, Nazi, or racist friend if he is called out by someone they do not have a stronger friendship with. This is mostly likely the phenomenon that you encountered when contacting his current real-life play partners. I understand your naive desire to get them this information, but their response is textbook.
In order to deplatform, you must have a lever. If you were very good friends with one of his causal play partners, that might have been enough of a lever. But, as someone unknown to them, it was most unlikely your logical evidence could break through their emotional experience.
So, where do you have a lever? I think one area is as a member of the local kink community. You can appeal to Fetlife through their official processes, but as you say, the community guidelines are quite loose. I think, as others have stated, actual gatherings have more potential for change. Contacting organizers and asking them if they are comfortable with a person sporting Nazi tattoos at their event? If they say they are (in other words), let them know you will be making their acceptance publicly known. If they say they are not, let them know about this guy as ask them to ban him.
Where else do you have a lever? In my experience, the kink community is usually quite small locally. Start talking to your trusted friends about this guy. Your friends will be more likely to look at the evidence objectively. Some of them might have closer connections to event organizers than you do. Some of them may be friends with folks who have had a less positive interaction with this guy than the acknowledged play partners you contacted.
As many have said, there will most likely be consequences to any actions you take. He will discover who you are. He may take action against you, including making your fetishes public, contacting your family/employer, etc. If you are not up for that, you might not be the right person to take this on. But, if you share what you have found with your trusted friends, one of them might be in a better position to do so. Someone who is living their kink life very publicly is in less danger of having that used against them.
posted by hworth at 7:38 AM on April 21, 2021 [15 favorites]
An alternative idea: encourage the meeting organizers to do a brief presentation on "How to Spot a Neo-Nazi/white Nationalist." Don't mention the individual, just "it's come to our attention that there are some white nationalists/Neo Nazis in our community. For everyone's safety, here are some symbols and phrases to look out for in people's profiles." Show the symbols of his tattoos, but also other symbols. Make this less about calling someone out (risky, possibly entrenches or radicalizes him more) and more about promoting awareness/group safety.
posted by coffeecat at 7:47 AM on April 21, 2021 [10 favorites]
posted by coffeecat at 7:47 AM on April 21, 2021 [10 favorites]
n-thing that you are approaching or may have already cross the line and you need to be very careful about how you proceed. Assuming you live in the United States, you need to be aware of any crimes you may be committing by "outing" this person resulting in violence or damages to him. The hard truth is that he has a legal right to be a Nazi, and others have the right to not associate with him. If you doxx him or push any violence his way, he would likely have legal remedies that would not be fun for you. You have every right in the world to express your opinions on this guy, but you don't have the right to advocate violence or harass/stalk/libel/slander him. Just be careful about not getting yourself in trouble - I understand where your heart is but you need to work within the bounds of established law.
People in private organizations have all the right in the world to remove, forbid, or otherwise eject those they don't want in the organization - that is the route to go.
posted by _DB_ at 7:53 AM on April 21, 2021
People in private organizations have all the right in the world to remove, forbid, or otherwise eject those they don't want in the organization - that is the route to go.
posted by _DB_ at 7:53 AM on April 21, 2021
I frankly find some of your actions thus far creepy, such as taking it upon yourself to message his partners.
I'm not on the site in question and don't know some of the conventions, but if they are sharing their partners' info with perfect strangers then I don't think it's like some creepy extra step to contact them and say hey, dude is a nazi (oh okay you can use distancing language if you like, such as "is fine permanently tattooing self with nazi symbols). If he felt shamed enough to hide some of those photos, then good. It should not feel comfortable to be an openly proud nazi. I don't have suggestions for going further but I think the advice to look into a code of conduct and contact events organizers with your concerns are good.
posted by JenMarie at 10:14 AM on April 21, 2021 [2 favorites]
I'm not on the site in question and don't know some of the conventions, but if they are sharing their partners' info with perfect strangers then I don't think it's like some creepy extra step to contact them and say hey, dude is a nazi (oh okay you can use distancing language if you like, such as "is fine permanently tattooing self with nazi symbols). If he felt shamed enough to hide some of those photos, then good. It should not feel comfortable to be an openly proud nazi. I don't have suggestions for going further but I think the advice to look into a code of conduct and contact events organizers with your concerns are good.
posted by JenMarie at 10:14 AM on April 21, 2021 [2 favorites]
secret Nazi symbolism in his tattoos
Erm, there is nothing "secret" about a person getting Nazi tattoos being a Nazi. Just because not everyone knows what they mean doesn't change the fact that they are Nazi tattoos. If you're not aware, that might be because you don't belong to a targeted group - the rest of us make a point of knowing.
posted by coffeecat at 10:38 AM on April 21, 2021 [17 favorites]
Erm, there is nothing "secret" about a person getting Nazi tattoos being a Nazi. Just because not everyone knows what they mean doesn't change the fact that they are Nazi tattoos. If you're not aware, that might be because you don't belong to a targeted group - the rest of us make a point of knowing.
posted by coffeecat at 10:38 AM on April 21, 2021 [17 favorites]
Wow, I am absolutely floored that people would come to the defense of this open Nazi.
You're absolutely doing the right thing. If you feel comfortable, MeMail me with the city you live in and I can probably give you contact information for networks engaged in antifascist work in your area ("local antifa").
The work you're doing is scary and a little risky, but absolutely essential. You're right to take steps to protect yourself. We need more like you
posted by Krawczak at 10:38 AM on April 21, 2021 [22 favorites]
You're absolutely doing the right thing. If you feel comfortable, MeMail me with the city you live in and I can probably give you contact information for networks engaged in antifascist work in your area ("local antifa").
The work you're doing is scary and a little risky, but absolutely essential. You're right to take steps to protect yourself. We need more like you
posted by Krawczak at 10:38 AM on April 21, 2021 [22 favorites]
Very much agree with those in the thread saying you're doing the right thing. It's wild to me that people are arguing that Nazi tattoos might not mean a person is a Nazi, or that it's their business. If you get a Nazi tattoo, guess what, you're telling everyone you are a Nazi. If someone tells your partners (truthfully) that your tattoo is secretly a Nazi tattoo, they're not causing you harm, they are telling the truth about you. I don't know anything about how best to deplatform, but I wish you luck in figuring out the correct steps here. If online spaces are to be safe for everyone, they cannot be a place for Nazis. Popper's paradox of tolerance is very real.
posted by lhputtgrass at 10:50 AM on April 21, 2021 [21 favorites]
posted by lhputtgrass at 10:50 AM on April 21, 2021 [21 favorites]
We do not have to make up barely possible backstories to explain away Nazi tattoos for people before taking some basic steps to protect our communities like speaking to event holders about codes of conduct and talking to our trusted friends about our concerns.
posted by Stacey at 12:07 PM on April 21, 2021 [11 favorites]
posted by Stacey at 12:07 PM on April 21, 2021 [11 favorites]
chappell, ambrose and moonlight on vermont are giving very good advice here. Don't take further direct action yourself.
Do research in order to find someone you can pass the information on to who can responsibly and safely do something with it.
posted by FallibleHuman at 12:22 PM on April 21, 2021 [1 favorite]
Do research in order to find someone you can pass the information on to who can responsibly and safely do something with it.
posted by FallibleHuman at 12:22 PM on April 21, 2021 [1 favorite]
Clarification of previous post: throw-away or no, by directly messaging this person's associates, you may have already created danger for yourself. Delegating any further action to someone else is the safest thing for you.
posted by FallibleHuman at 12:32 PM on April 21, 2021
posted by FallibleHuman at 12:32 PM on April 21, 2021
Mod note: A couple comments removed. While the possibility exists that someone, somewhere, got Nazi tattoos without truly in their heart of hearts thinking it's good to have Nazi tattoos, we do not need to bend over backwards trying to imagine those scenarios as a reason to guess that someone with Nazi tattoos is actually just a cool guy with weird ink. The question is whether and what else the asker should do, not whether or not those Nazi tattoos are Nazi tattoos; please focus on the question asked.
posted by cortex (staff) at 2:38 PM on April 21, 2021 [9 favorites]
posted by cortex (staff) at 2:38 PM on April 21, 2021 [9 favorites]
Put up a fake profile featuring only photos of his tattoos and other Nazi tattoos and explaining each of them.
posted by bashing rocks together at 3:55 PM on April 21, 2021 [1 favorite]
posted by bashing rocks together at 3:55 PM on April 21, 2021 [1 favorite]
I think sending his info to a local group is a good idea; get him on some sort of watch list. Your local chapter of Democratic Socialists?
posted by angrycat at 3:59 PM on April 21, 2021 [1 favorite]
posted by angrycat at 3:59 PM on April 21, 2021 [1 favorite]
“This action will be both dangerous to you personally and also largely ineffective, so leave this to experienced activists” is not in the same universe as “this guy is fine, don’t worry about it.”
I would hate for some of these responses to goad the poster into actions they are not prepared to effectively carry out or face the consequences for.
posted by showbiz_liz at 4:06 PM on April 21, 2021 [3 favorites]
I would hate for some of these responses to goad the poster into actions they are not prepared to effectively carry out or face the consequences for.
posted by showbiz_liz at 4:06 PM on April 21, 2021 [3 favorites]
Nazis are horrible, good on you for taking initiative against one.
I don't know anything about online groups that expose nazis, I'll leave suggestions regarding those to others.
I do however run RL events (on hiatus for the pandemic), and my suggestion is that you don't contact event organizers about him specifically. I mean he's a problem, but there are likely to be others, he's just an example. People like him should be addressed systemically.
Go to the events, meet the event organizers, build rapport and participate, then suggest they add a rule that would cover him and people like him. You want to have any suggestion cover appearance and behavior, not identity/membership, which is more difficult to prove.
There are hobbyist, knitting, jogging groups etc, with Codes of Conduct, I expect anything like kink, where there are explicit expectations around consent, would have one, but if not you can suggest they add one and have it include a rule that covers this asshole.
Depending on the type of event you are talking about, you can maybe create your own event or events and include your own CoC with important values, expected behavior, and attire, forbidden behavior and attire, who is welcome, and who isn't.
You have every right to create the sort of safe event you would want to attend, and doing so can make it easier to push others to behave better and to consider who should and shouldn't be welcome. Include the right in your rules to ask people to leave if they are problematic or detrimental to the group, and then if this guy shows up, or if someone similar does, then even if they don't technically violate a written rule you can still ask them to leave.
Oh and there are definitely racists that chase BIPOC and antisemites that chase Jewish people, just as there are misogynists that like women.
Feel free to Mefi Mail me if you feel comfortable doing so, I may have further thoughts/ideas.
posted by Chrysopoeia at 4:20 PM on April 21, 2021
I don't know anything about online groups that expose nazis, I'll leave suggestions regarding those to others.
I do however run RL events (on hiatus for the pandemic), and my suggestion is that you don't contact event organizers about him specifically. I mean he's a problem, but there are likely to be others, he's just an example. People like him should be addressed systemically.
Go to the events, meet the event organizers, build rapport and participate, then suggest they add a rule that would cover him and people like him. You want to have any suggestion cover appearance and behavior, not identity/membership, which is more difficult to prove.
There are hobbyist, knitting, jogging groups etc, with Codes of Conduct, I expect anything like kink, where there are explicit expectations around consent, would have one, but if not you can suggest they add one and have it include a rule that covers this asshole.
Depending on the type of event you are talking about, you can maybe create your own event or events and include your own CoC with important values, expected behavior, and attire, forbidden behavior and attire, who is welcome, and who isn't.
You have every right to create the sort of safe event you would want to attend, and doing so can make it easier to push others to behave better and to consider who should and shouldn't be welcome. Include the right in your rules to ask people to leave if they are problematic or detrimental to the group, and then if this guy shows up, or if someone similar does, then even if they don't technically violate a written rule you can still ask them to leave.
Oh and there are definitely racists that chase BIPOC and antisemites that chase Jewish people, just as there are misogynists that like women.
Feel free to Mefi Mail me if you feel comfortable doing so, I may have further thoughts/ideas.
posted by Chrysopoeia at 4:20 PM on April 21, 2021
From an an ethical perspective, it is perfectly reasonable to talk to organizers of events that you and he might both expect to attend and tell them that you aren't comfortable with folks with Nazi tattoos attending and would they consider making a rule against that.
IMO where it gets less ethical is when you start to step into relationships that have nothing to do with you, like an employment relationship. And from a practical perspective, unless he has a job like prison guard or police officer where having these views would make him especially dangerous, it seems on the whole better and safer for anyone around him that he be a productively employed neo-Nazi than a bitter, unemployed neo-Nazi with a lot of free time and a grudge against the person who got him fired. Even if you stayed anonymous, he could easily take his resentment out on some other member of a minority group; it's not as though Nazis have a reputation for appropriately holding the correct people responsible for wrongs they have experienced.
posted by phoenixy at 8:48 PM on April 21, 2021
IMO where it gets less ethical is when you start to step into relationships that have nothing to do with you, like an employment relationship. And from a practical perspective, unless he has a job like prison guard or police officer where having these views would make him especially dangerous, it seems on the whole better and safer for anyone around him that he be a productively employed neo-Nazi than a bitter, unemployed neo-Nazi with a lot of free time and a grudge against the person who got him fired. Even if you stayed anonymous, he could easily take his resentment out on some other member of a minority group; it's not as though Nazis have a reputation for appropriately holding the correct people responsible for wrongs they have experienced.
posted by phoenixy at 8:48 PM on April 21, 2021
Another note on safety: I know the main what-if being discussed here is the guy being innocent of real deal Nazi ideology, but the opposite is also equally possible and very dangerous. Nazi tattoos seen on a stranger on fetlife could really, REALLY mean anything from “some idiot who got in too deep in a Hetalia roleplay” to “member of a white power prison gang who will bring all his buddies to jump you if he realizes you’re interfering with his life and permanently injure you/put you in the hospital.” I’m not kidding or trying to gently deter you talking about being safe; I’m glad you used a fake fetlife account to send those dms but the people doing this as actvism use entire burner fash phones/data plans. Please get yourself on a more secure standing before pursuing this stuff!
posted by moonlight on vermont at 12:01 AM on April 22, 2021 [2 favorites]
posted by moonlight on vermont at 12:01 AM on April 22, 2021 [2 favorites]
I've absorbed, partly from Mefi, the idea that Nazis don't disappear by themselves: you have to kick them out of the bar, and that it's not always someone else's problem
The "kick them out of the bar" story is about the BARTENDER kicking them out, not about someone who randomly drops into the bar once in a great while kicking them out. If you were to walk into a bar you aren't familiar with and saw someone there displaying Nazi tattoos and being accepted by the community of that bar -- well that might tell you something about what that community values.
I think you should think about what communities you are an active part of and think about what you can do to making them more welcoming, inclusive, and diverse. Which might involve some policies around hate symbols, but don't limit yourself to just that, there is a lot of work to do in this area.
posted by yohko at 6:21 PM on April 22, 2021 [1 favorite]
The "kick them out of the bar" story is about the BARTENDER kicking them out, not about someone who randomly drops into the bar once in a great while kicking them out. If you were to walk into a bar you aren't familiar with and saw someone there displaying Nazi tattoos and being accepted by the community of that bar -- well that might tell you something about what that community values.
I think you should think about what communities you are an active part of and think about what you can do to making them more welcoming, inclusive, and diverse. Which might involve some policies around hate symbols, but don't limit yourself to just that, there is a lot of work to do in this area.
posted by yohko at 6:21 PM on April 22, 2021 [1 favorite]
Please do not attempt to fight the fash by yourself.
If you think you have identified a fascist or Nazi and wish to report them for further action (likely doxing, and then reporting to the employer, etc.) I recommend pointing your Tor Browser at itsgoingdown.org and doing a Ctrl-F for "$your_city anti-fascist action". IGD has a section called "Dox of the Week" listing doxed Nazis and actions taken against them- typically phone calls to employers or landlords- and inviting others in the area to join in.
If you find a reference to (for example) "townsville anti-fascist action" it's likely that there will be some contact information there. Anti-fascist groups often take anonymous tips- it's then their responsibility to vet the information they get. Feel free to use a disposable email address for your report and then discard it, if you don't want to "get involved" with your local antifa super-soldiers. Your local antifa doesn't need to know who you are.
I apologize to any such super-soldiers who may read this (ohai GDC :^) if I've improperly relayed the protocol specification, cause I'm guessing.
posted by Rev. Irreverent Revenant at 9:36 AM on April 23, 2021
If you think you have identified a fascist or Nazi and wish to report them for further action (likely doxing, and then reporting to the employer, etc.) I recommend pointing your Tor Browser at itsgoingdown.org and doing a Ctrl-F for "$your_city anti-fascist action". IGD has a section called "Dox of the Week" listing doxed Nazis and actions taken against them- typically phone calls to employers or landlords- and inviting others in the area to join in.
If you find a reference to (for example) "townsville anti-fascist action" it's likely that there will be some contact information there. Anti-fascist groups often take anonymous tips- it's then their responsibility to vet the information they get. Feel free to use a disposable email address for your report and then discard it, if you don't want to "get involved" with your local antifa super-soldiers. Your local antifa doesn't need to know who you are.
I apologize to any such super-soldiers who may read this (ohai GDC :^) if I've improperly relayed the protocol specification, cause I'm guessing.
posted by Rev. Irreverent Revenant at 9:36 AM on April 23, 2021
This thread is closed to new comments.
posted by kinddieserzeit at 3:35 AM on April 21, 2021 [16 favorites]