can't live through another flood
March 11, 2020 4:00 PM Subscribe
For the past two years, my entire house has flooded from the back left of the house due to flash flooding down the hill we live on. I have hired a drainage remediation specialist who recommends (among other things) a drain on my neighbor's property. Neighbors initially said "yes" but have decided not to allow us to dig on their property. We are financially overextended and broke from two consecutive floods. What can we do?
We don't have a ton of options because the lot is almost entirely built on. I've contacted our drainage remediation guy and told him that the neighbors have now said "no"; he was scheduled to start work on Monday. I cannot express how little I want to move right now, but it's even less than I am willing to put up with a fourth flood in three years in this house. (The first was a sewer issue; the other two have been flash floods from sudden heavy rains rolling downhill.)
Previous floods have both happened in May, so we have a definite time constraint on our hands. My spouse is concerned that if it comes down to suing the neighbors to be allowed to place the drain, we will not be able to do this in enough time to keep a third flash flood from displacing us, which has meant two months of extreme stress and tens of thousands of dollars even with flood insurance--and our premiums just went way the hell up. They are also concerned about war with the neighbors making our lives hellish.
I would also prefer not to engage in war with the neighbors, but I have just come from a session in which we outright begged, asked what their concerns were so that we could allay them, offered to let them speak with our contractors, pointed out that we are paying for all of this, and so forth. They don't appear to care. We have also pointed out that selling the house at a loss before May is our best backup plan if the drainage specialist cannot fix the problem, and that this will not help their property values; this also did not seem to sway them.
I am trying to graduate with my PhD by the end of the summer. How can I minimize the flood related stress and financial losses? Is it best to just sell the damn house and run? Do I have legal options? This is in Austin, Texas in case that's relevant.
We don't have a ton of options because the lot is almost entirely built on. I've contacted our drainage remediation guy and told him that the neighbors have now said "no"; he was scheduled to start work on Monday. I cannot express how little I want to move right now, but it's even less than I am willing to put up with a fourth flood in three years in this house. (The first was a sewer issue; the other two have been flash floods from sudden heavy rains rolling downhill.)
Previous floods have both happened in May, so we have a definite time constraint on our hands. My spouse is concerned that if it comes down to suing the neighbors to be allowed to place the drain, we will not be able to do this in enough time to keep a third flash flood from displacing us, which has meant two months of extreme stress and tens of thousands of dollars even with flood insurance--and our premiums just went way the hell up. They are also concerned about war with the neighbors making our lives hellish.
I would also prefer not to engage in war with the neighbors, but I have just come from a session in which we outright begged, asked what their concerns were so that we could allay them, offered to let them speak with our contractors, pointed out that we are paying for all of this, and so forth. They don't appear to care. We have also pointed out that selling the house at a loss before May is our best backup plan if the drainage specialist cannot fix the problem, and that this will not help their property values; this also did not seem to sway them.
I am trying to graduate with my PhD by the end of the summer. How can I minimize the flood related stress and financial losses? Is it best to just sell the damn house and run? Do I have legal options? This is in Austin, Texas in case that's relevant.
Did the neighbors say why they changed their minds on such short notice?
posted by alittleknowledge at 4:16 PM on March 11, 2020
posted by alittleknowledge at 4:16 PM on March 11, 2020
Response by poster: First it was "well, we spoke with a realtor and they advised us not to do it" and then it became "well, we don't think the drain there would do any good" and then "I think your wooden fence is holding the water in" and eventually "we fixed our drainage issues without bothering the neighbors."
We asked them about a week ago and they said yes then; I imagine that they decided they didn't want to deal for whatever reason today. Whatever reason it is, they are not willing to actually share it or work on it with us; that was very clear.
posted by sciatrix at 4:22 PM on March 11, 2020
We asked them about a week ago and they said yes then; I imagine that they decided they didn't want to deal for whatever reason today. Whatever reason it is, they are not willing to actually share it or work on it with us; that was very clear.
posted by sciatrix at 4:22 PM on March 11, 2020
You could sue them or threaten to sue them. You could offer them money? “I know that this seems like a pain but would a $100 gift card to Home Depot or some store of your choice help ease this?” You can get further drainage opinions and see if there’s anything else you can do on your own property. Just throwing out ideas. This sucks for you!!
posted by amanda at 4:32 PM on March 11, 2020 [2 favorites]
posted by amanda at 4:32 PM on March 11, 2020 [2 favorites]
Check with a real estate or bankruptcy attorney, but I believe that Texas is a non-recourse state so another option may be to default on the mortgage and leave the bank to seize the property in lieu of your paying off the loan (they cannot pursue you for the rest of the unpaid mortgage).
You MUST consult with professionals before doing this. It’s not the same as actual bankruptcy, but it’s still a nuclear option.
posted by aramaic at 4:34 PM on March 11, 2020 [3 favorites]
You MUST consult with professionals before doing this. It’s not the same as actual bankruptcy, but it’s still a nuclear option.
posted by aramaic at 4:34 PM on March 11, 2020 [3 favorites]
Hi, you are me 6 months ago. What broke the logjam was going to my local state rep and the county, and ultimately finding that my property was eligible for a cost-share under which the county paid 50% of getting a ton of new drainage, grading, and home-exterior reinforcing work on *my property* on short notice in the name of storm water and erosion management (and also telling the uphill neighborhood HOA that they have long term problems and are on notice).
While not everyone is going to be in a situation that works out so well (my house is in a watershed that I believe is the source of the cost-share), this is the kind of thing local elected government is sometimes effective at! I would go to them before lawyering up (and I’m a lawyer, though not yours or my own).
posted by LadyInWaiting at 5:19 PM on March 11, 2020 [10 favorites]
While not everyone is going to be in a situation that works out so well (my house is in a watershed that I believe is the source of the cost-share), this is the kind of thing local elected government is sometimes effective at! I would go to them before lawyering up (and I’m a lawyer, though not yours or my own).
posted by LadyInWaiting at 5:19 PM on March 11, 2020 [10 favorites]
Is it possible to install some sump pumps and drain to a street? I lived in a house that had a French drain and two sump pumps that drained up a driveway and into a street. Maybe your specialist needs to find a different way?
posted by gt2 at 5:31 PM on March 11, 2020
posted by gt2 at 5:31 PM on March 11, 2020
In 2008 we solved our flooding problems by spending about $8000 on 2 new swales, regrading, redirection of roof downspouts to underground pipe with pop-ups near each swale. We also are on a cement pad and have neighbors up hill from us separated from us by a wooden fence. Contractor said that every droplet of water is stupid, it just wants to go down hill, so you have to give it a different downhill choice that works. Also, the price may seem low for all that work, but don't forget what the 2008 economy was like. We had a small inheritance and used it to fix this annoying problem, and it has stayed fixed ever since. Your mileage may most definitely vary.
posted by forthright at 5:45 PM on March 11, 2020
posted by forthright at 5:45 PM on March 11, 2020
"we fixed our drainage issues without bothering the neighbors"
How long have you owned the house? Did you have any years without flooding? If the neighbor redid their drainage and ended up diverting water onto your property, that's illegal in Texas.
posted by muddgirl at 5:48 PM on March 11, 2020 [15 favorites]
How long have you owned the house? Did you have any years without flooding? If the neighbor redid their drainage and ended up diverting water onto your property, that's illegal in Texas.
posted by muddgirl at 5:48 PM on March 11, 2020 [15 favorites]
Man, I don't know what the legal issues are, but assuming they are not legally obligated to do it (above answers about conditions in which they might be, e.g. redoing their drainage to screw you)... I'd probably say no too. I mean, yeah, you're paying now, but who deals with it if they don't put my property back together? Who handles it when the drain gets clogged or the pipe breaks? What if that happens in 10 years and you've moved but they haven't? Honestly, what's in it for them to say yes? I'm thinking about what would make me say yes, and probably it would involve you legally buying an easement, definitely lawyers to draft up all the rules (my choice of lawyer, your dime), and likely at least $10k (on top of the rest of those costs, obviously), just to pay me to do it.
Like, I get that that sucks, but honestly it's not their problem. If you are able to come up with a new drainage plan (maybe with a new specialist), do that. If you're not, sell the house.
posted by brainmouse at 5:52 PM on March 11, 2020
Like, I get that that sucks, but honestly it's not their problem. If you are able to come up with a new drainage plan (maybe with a new specialist), do that. If you're not, sell the house.
posted by brainmouse at 5:52 PM on March 11, 2020
(incidentally, a side note: if you try to sell the house you will almost certainly be required to disclose the past flooding, or risk being sued by the new owners. If you only recently acquired the house, you may have recourse against the prior owners.)
posted by aramaic at 6:21 PM on March 11, 2020 [1 favorite]
posted by aramaic at 6:21 PM on March 11, 2020 [1 favorite]
Response by poster: We acquired the house June 2016; first flash flood was in spring of 2018. It would be very hard to prove that they did something that changed the flood patterns, though, because I believe the neighbors mentioned that they dug their own hole without really notifying anyone formally, and I don't recall noticing construction in their house or side yard. (We actually had a totally unrelated house flood due to a burst sewer main February 2018, so we were more than slightly distracted at the time.)
Incidentally, I noted water damage to their back door while we were speaking to them about the potential drain, and now both of us are worried about our remediation efforts, which include a raised and extended concrete wall along the property boundary with these neighbors. If we completely fix the drainage on our side and they suddenly start reporting flooding, can we be held liable even though we are downhill? The proposed drain had been intended to divert water into a concrete alleyway behind our houses and improve drainage altogether.
We are fully planning on disclosing the flooding and not intending to hide it if we sell. If we take that option, the area is in very high demand for flippers anyway; the house was on the market for four days before we bought it at 40k above asking price. Even with the flooding, we are fairly sure that the house will sell before May if we decide we need to go that route; we're just glumly pretty sure we'll take a big loss on it, not to mention disrupting ourselves and also our tenants/roommates.
posted by sciatrix at 6:53 PM on March 11, 2020
Incidentally, I noted water damage to their back door while we were speaking to them about the potential drain, and now both of us are worried about our remediation efforts, which include a raised and extended concrete wall along the property boundary with these neighbors. If we completely fix the drainage on our side and they suddenly start reporting flooding, can we be held liable even though we are downhill? The proposed drain had been intended to divert water into a concrete alleyway behind our houses and improve drainage altogether.
We are fully planning on disclosing the flooding and not intending to hide it if we sell. If we take that option, the area is in very high demand for flippers anyway; the house was on the market for four days before we bought it at 40k above asking price. Even with the flooding, we are fairly sure that the house will sell before May if we decide we need to go that route; we're just glumly pretty sure we'll take a big loss on it, not to mention disrupting ourselves and also our tenants/roommates.
posted by sciatrix at 6:53 PM on March 11, 2020
If it's a 2016 purchase you should seriously consider letting the bank take the house rather than take a loss on the sale; I mean, obviously, much depends on your equity etc., but at least think about it long enough to look at what you've paid in vs. what you think you could get back out. It may very well be that the best solution is to walk away (or not! I could be wrong! Ask a professional!!).
A mortgage is not a moral obligation, it's a business transaction. The bank would fuck you over the second they thought it would make them more money, so you should feel free to fuck them over the moment you think it will save YOU money.
Room-mates/tenants complicate matters, yes. I'm too heartless to have advice on that.
posted by aramaic at 7:07 PM on March 11, 2020 [8 favorites]
A mortgage is not a moral obligation, it's a business transaction. The bank would fuck you over the second they thought it would make them more money, so you should feel free to fuck them over the moment you think it will save YOU money.
Room-mates/tenants complicate matters, yes. I'm too heartless to have advice on that.
posted by aramaic at 7:07 PM on March 11, 2020 [8 favorites]
I am curious why you can't remediate it on your side of the line. A French drain is literally adjacent to your foundation or can even be installed under a slab. I'm sure the expert is more expert than I am or that things would make sense if we saw a map, but are you sure they considered every option?
I have sympathy for the neighbors' position because every construction project I've done (or so it seems) has had unintended consequences. Could digging on their property destabilize the clay shoring up their foundation? If they fail to maintain it, do they become liable?
However, what would change my mind about that would be learning more about my current responsibilities and liabilities, especially if those included ensuring that my property didn't dump water onto my neighbors' property.
In your shoes, I would definitely ask an attorney whether you have any grounds to sue them. You may not. But assuming you did, you wouldn't have to sue them. The lawyer or you could just send them a letter informing them of their responsibilities (and how much the water flow has cost you over the years). If they truly faced a risk of being found liable for all the repairs over the past two years and any more going forward due to flooding or the loss you incur in a sale, then allowing you to do the work you want to do might seem like a very fair compromise. I hear your spouse's concern about timing, but it might not take that long to get to a settlement. Or, you could go ahead and sell at a loss and then see what portion of that loss they'll agree to pay. I hear your concern about wanting to stay on good terms, but if their property is dumping water that's causing you tens of thousands of damages, aren't you kind of already in a war with your neighbors? That said, lawsuits are stressful and costly, so I would not take it very far down that road -- just enough to get them to the bargaining table.
posted by slidell at 9:43 PM on March 11, 2020
I have sympathy for the neighbors' position because every construction project I've done (or so it seems) has had unintended consequences. Could digging on their property destabilize the clay shoring up their foundation? If they fail to maintain it, do they become liable?
However, what would change my mind about that would be learning more about my current responsibilities and liabilities, especially if those included ensuring that my property didn't dump water onto my neighbors' property.
In your shoes, I would definitely ask an attorney whether you have any grounds to sue them. You may not. But assuming you did, you wouldn't have to sue them. The lawyer or you could just send them a letter informing them of their responsibilities (and how much the water flow has cost you over the years). If they truly faced a risk of being found liable for all the repairs over the past two years and any more going forward due to flooding or the loss you incur in a sale, then allowing you to do the work you want to do might seem like a very fair compromise. I hear your spouse's concern about timing, but it might not take that long to get to a settlement. Or, you could go ahead and sell at a loss and then see what portion of that loss they'll agree to pay. I hear your concern about wanting to stay on good terms, but if their property is dumping water that's causing you tens of thousands of damages, aren't you kind of already in a war with your neighbors? That said, lawsuits are stressful and costly, so I would not take it very far down that road -- just enough to get them to the bargaining table.
posted by slidell at 9:43 PM on March 11, 2020
Honestly sciatrix I would just get out of there if it was me*... sounds like a nightmare. I know moving is terrible and the timing is bad for you, and I feel you on taking a loss. But if your neighbours aren't budging and no promising alternative solution has been found for the flooding, better a move than another flood that you have to sink more money into. And if it were me, I would not want to make enemies of my neighbours by sending them a legal letter. Speak to your tenants/roommates ASAP so they have maximum time to think about what they want to do- maybe they would want to move with you, if you would be looking for a similar property? Try to think of this as an opportunity to find a cool new place to live and start fresh , without having to worry constantly about flooding.
*disclosure: my perspective comes from a place of zero knowledge about the legal or contractor sides of this, and my old house had ongoing water damage for a long period of time.
posted by DTMFA at 5:59 AM on March 12, 2020
*disclosure: my perspective comes from a place of zero knowledge about the legal or contractor sides of this, and my old house had ongoing water damage for a long period of time.
posted by DTMFA at 5:59 AM on March 12, 2020
I have a recurrent water/flooding problem though it's a lot less serious than what you describe. I have not found a permanent solution, but I have learned to mitigate it by deploying a pump during the biggest storms. This may or may not work for you, but if it's at all feasible, it might get you through this May.
You would need some sort of estimate of how much water in involved. One inch of rain on one acres is about 27,225 gallons. I was able to figure the approximate volume of a pond that was left over post-storm.
In order for it to work at all, you need 1) some sort of sump where the water collects beginning as early in the storm as possible. This could just be a low spot near your house, but it has to collect water deep enough. 2) A pump. I use one like this and an appropriate hose. 3) someplace to pump the water to. I dump mine on the street. This would be against the rules for a permanent installation, but I'm counting on getting a free pass with the "I'm saving my house from disaster" argument.
The actual gal/min of any pump is likely to be less than the rated capacity since that is given for ideal conditions. A big issue is whether the pump has time to pump enough water.
As to a permanent solution, it might be worthwhile to talk to the building dept of your local government. Regulations involving water vary from place to place.
posted by SemiSalt at 6:40 AM on March 12, 2020
You would need some sort of estimate of how much water in involved. One inch of rain on one acres is about 27,225 gallons. I was able to figure the approximate volume of a pond that was left over post-storm.
In order for it to work at all, you need 1) some sort of sump where the water collects beginning as early in the storm as possible. This could just be a low spot near your house, but it has to collect water deep enough. 2) A pump. I use one like this and an appropriate hose. 3) someplace to pump the water to. I dump mine on the street. This would be against the rules for a permanent installation, but I'm counting on getting a free pass with the "I'm saving my house from disaster" argument.
The actual gal/min of any pump is likely to be less than the rated capacity since that is given for ideal conditions. A big issue is whether the pump has time to pump enough water.
As to a permanent solution, it might be worthwhile to talk to the building dept of your local government. Regulations involving water vary from place to place.
posted by SemiSalt at 6:40 AM on March 12, 2020
In my state, a landowner is responsible for water flowing off of their property. If that's the case in your state, your neighbors could be liable for your flood damage -- you could consult an attorney and have them write a nice letter to your neighbors about how you would like to avoid suing them for all the damage to your property and would prefer that they put a drain in.
It's entirely possible there's no way to avoid having the neighbors be upset with you about this. If I'm understanding your question, you've had to pay out tens of thousands of dollars because your neighbors have negligently allowed water flowing off their property to flood your house, in light of that it seems like a very small thing to ask to put in a drain on their property that you are even willing to pay for yourself! If in your state your neighbors are liable for these damages to your house, it might be time for you to stop being so nice here.
You should probably talk to a lawyer who can tell you what your options are in detail.
posted by yohko at 12:02 AM on March 13, 2020
It's entirely possible there's no way to avoid having the neighbors be upset with you about this. If I'm understanding your question, you've had to pay out tens of thousands of dollars because your neighbors have negligently allowed water flowing off their property to flood your house, in light of that it seems like a very small thing to ask to put in a drain on their property that you are even willing to pay for yourself! If in your state your neighbors are liable for these damages to your house, it might be time for you to stop being so nice here.
You should probably talk to a lawyer who can tell you what your options are in detail.
posted by yohko at 12:02 AM on March 13, 2020
I’m wondering if their solution to excess water was done at the same time you started experiencing problems.
posted by Talia Devane at 8:45 AM on March 13, 2020 [2 favorites]
posted by Talia Devane at 8:45 AM on March 13, 2020 [2 favorites]
Response by poster: Civil engineer came out to look at the property. One of my neighbors' nieces was out; she immediately said she doesn't speak English, so he asked her politely in Spanish what was going on, who owned the house, what they were feeling like, etc. She basically said she knew nothing, had no idea what her aunt and uncle wanted to do, and then fled. (I speak Spanish fairly badly, but they were speaking slowly enough I was able to follow the conversation easily.)
Later, when he was done talking solutions with us, he went round on his own to see if they'd talk to him, and they refused to answer the door, so. Looks like we're going to have to figure out what legal aid looks like, what the HOA's policies are, and who we put on pressure with through more official channels. I rather suspect that coronavirus will completely fuck that process.
Fuuuuuuuuuck me.
posted by sciatrix at 10:04 AM on March 17, 2020
Later, when he was done talking solutions with us, he went round on his own to see if they'd talk to him, and they refused to answer the door, so. Looks like we're going to have to figure out what legal aid looks like, what the HOA's policies are, and who we put on pressure with through more official channels. I rather suspect that coronavirus will completely fuck that process.
Fuuuuuuuuuck me.
posted by sciatrix at 10:04 AM on March 17, 2020
This thread is closed to new comments.
posted by a humble nudibranch at 4:03 PM on March 11, 2020