Congrats, it’s a salary negotiation!

February 10, 2020 8:39 AM

I got some lovely advice from you all about negotiating salary (or not.) I’m happy to say I have an offer! But the way they presented it has thrown me off a little bit and wondering how best to handle it.

This Was my previous question. I thought of going with DarlingBri’s answer since that seemed like a good approach. I got the call on Friday and have said I would respond by tomorrow.

I’m super excited to get an offer! Not only would I be able to leave my toxic job (which I’ve been trying to leave for over a year, and have turned down other offers—I got one offer for 20% more than I was making but got AWFUL vibes from it. So I’ve been waiting for what seems like the right one.)

Culture wise, I like the position, I really like the person I’d be working for/with as I know them outside of work, and I could move up and learn something I don’t know about. I also could work from home 1-2 days per week after the first few orientation months, which would help because I have a longer commute. Eventually, I do want to move to the city that the job is in.

They gave me the offer and like expected, it is less than I make now (about $5k less). My future boss said this: “I know it might be less than you make now. We have limited flexibility at this moment but would really like to have you on. Either we give you a 5% raise after 6 months and then 5% raise at 1 year after reaching some objectives. Or we can ask for 10% more upfront but that would take really long and we would have to make strong justifications to our board.” It sounded like they want to get me on as soon as possible (while still respecting my current employer with 2-3 weeks notice) and it also sounds like it will be hard to ask for 10%. I would definitely accept at 10% now because it’s a tiny bit more than what I make currently. I’m afraid to ask because his tone was very “You could try but it would be hard for us” and I don’t want to cause trouble. But I also feel like the 5% + 5% later could work, it just feels like one of those bird in hand things? Is there a downside to that option other than I’m just making less for a year?

If they said they could do 10% I’m guessing it would be wrong to ask for 11%? (Essentially, DarlingBri’s response which i was planning on using — “I’m currently making 48k but am looking at $50k.” Because 10% in this scenario would be $48.7k and the way they worded it seems like that’s the max?) Would it be ok to ask for the 10% even though they seemed hesitant about that offer? Will it sour something if I ask for that option? thank you again in advance!

posted by socky bottoms to Work & Money (22 answers total)

As long as it is in writing, the 5% / 5% works, as long as you're OK with it. But it should be in writing, especially what the objectives will be.
posted by rich at 8:58 AM on February 10, 2020 [7 favorites]

I would be wary of the 5%/5% model myself, and would not hesitate to politely ask them to push for the 10% increase now. If you want to hedge, you could say that 10% would make you most comfortable, but that you are open to 5%/5% if 10% doesn't pan out.

If you go with the 5%/5% model, review the offer letter closely. Make sure the raises are not linked to objectives/performance in a way that would be easy for them to renege. For example, what if you fail to meet Objective A within 1 year for reasons that are out of your control... in that case, would it feel fair to lose out on the second 5% raise? (It sure wouldn't to me.)
posted by shb at 9:03 AM on February 10, 2020 [4 favorites]

Don't worry about causing trouble. No one who suggests this option to you is going to think about it as causing trouble. And again, they suggested it—they're unlikely to withdraw your offer just because you took them up on that option.

The main decision for you is whether you want to move immediately or whether you're willing to wait a bit to see if they can make 10% happen.
posted by grouse at 9:14 AM on February 10, 2020 [1 favorite]

Personally I don't buy any kind of promise of a future automatic raise, even if it's in writing. What legal means of enforcement exists for something like that if they don't come through? (Spoiler alert: there is none)

I've seen many of those promises get handwaved away when the time approaches. "Oh just give us a few more months, things are tight right now" is what you hear and - guess what - the situation never changes.

I also think the "oh the magical mystical Board located in Antarctica needs to approve this" might be true, but it's been exaggerated as a bluff to get you to sign now. They like you and want you!

You have the luxury of time right now as long as your current employer doesn't know what's going on. I say make the 10%-11% ask and see what happens. You should also ask if you can compare the price of benefits between the two companies. Perhaps you're making 2-3% more right there without any changes.

If your current job is as toxic as you say, prepare your exit now and just leave once the negotiations are satisfied. You don't owe any employer two weeks notice, especially the bad ones. They'd fire you on the spot if it was convenient for them, right? Be professional and set things up ahead of time for the next person but nothing more than that.
posted by JoeZydeco at 9:15 AM on February 10, 2020 [7 favorites]

First thing I want to say: your future boss is reluctant to do the work needed to get you what is, by definition, your market rate (it's what you currently earn!). This is apparently because it's a hassle for them. This to me is a sign that they may not be a great boss and/or this may not be a great environment to work in. Whether this is OK with you depends on how much you want/need the job.

Assuming you really want/need the job, the second thing I want to say is: you will never again have the negotiating strength you have right now. And because of compound interest (i.e. per cent raises), your starting salary is incredibly important to your salary in five years time. Both of these are arguments for pushing as hard as you can consistent with not burning your bridges

I would ask for them to match what you currently earn. This is not an unreasonable request. You have expenses. You have set your life up assuming a certain income. And it's the market rate.

The 5%/5% thing is bullshit. By all means get it in writing if you take the job. But it's not binding in any way.
posted by caek at 9:16 AM on February 10, 2020 [13 favorites]

It might be worth taking the offer to get out of a toxic situation and have the other benefits like working from home. From my perspective of eating crumbs for years though, I'd recommend only taking the 5/5 off if you are genuinely okay with those raises never happening. This is how employers magically never quite have to spend that money. And even if you do get the 10% you should have had now in a year, that's a year that isn't accruing toward your next raise. If your employer does retirement contributions, you'll have been missing that money too.

Forgive my assumption, but the phrasing of your question makes me wonder if you are a woman. I say this because I've felt the same hesitancy to push back. This kind of vaguely worded indirect discouragement from asking for your due is part of why there is pay discrepancy. If you can see someone else cheerfully and assertively asking for what they are worth, don't hesitate to do it yourself.
posted by past unusual at 9:24 AM on February 10, 2020 [2 favorites]

If you actually want the job I think the only wrong move here is to ask for 11%. If they say "10% is difficult but doable with time" and you ask for 11% that's barely any more than 10% in practical terms, and could be interpreted as being petty/hard to work with. Asking for 15% on the other hand isn't insulting and could be a good negotiation tactic.

Considering you hate your job and have had finding some difficulty finding a new one, I think rather you take the 10% or the 5/5 has to do with how desperate you are to leave. If you can see yourself staying in your current job for 2 months while you negotiate then asking for 10% is better. But if you would find it unbearable to stick around in your dead end job you could negotiate on the guaranteed raise deal, you should definitely ask for higher than 5/5 deferred in that case because that's just strictly worse than the 10 upfront option. Personally if I felt like I would be able to stay heads down in my old job and not deal with lots of new issues I'd wait, but if my old job was adding new demands or constantly asking about your future to the point where you'd have to lie a lot I would quit now with the lower salary. It's up to what you can tolerate.
posted by JZig at 9:30 AM on February 10, 2020

I found the following advice very helpful. I expect it will answer your question and provide useful perspective on negotiating vs. accepting your current offer:

NEGOTIATE YOUR SALARY, PLEASE: YOU OWE IT TO YOURSELF
posted by Goblin Barbarian at 9:39 AM on February 10, 2020 [5 favorites]

Bird in the hand. Figure out what the 10% would represent in salary and then say that's what you really need. They want you, and they wouldn't even dangle the 10% increase if they totally can't do it. Say you understand it's a board matter and you'll get them whatever they need to make the case, but you really need to make $Whatever10%Is.
posted by Miko at 10:04 AM on February 10, 2020 [2 favorites]

I don't like the way they presented this. Fuck causing trouble.

I would ask for what you want:

"Thank you so much for the offer! I'm very excited to start work on your team.

I would be grateful if the salary of $50,000 could please be reviewed. I'll look forward to hearing back on it.

Thank you,
You"

Don't apologize, don't say, "I know it'll be hard - I'm sorry to make you do this." whatever.

Don't worry about 10% vs 11% - ask for what you want. If it's 50k, ask for that.

They are painting you into the corner of not negotiating for more - don't let them do that.

In case it helps, here's an overview I wrote up on salary negotiation.

You never want the "future" bonus / raise, etc in lieu of a current offer increase. You want that money in your hand NOW - you don't know what the future holds, even if you have it in writing [you leave the job, your role changes, you're let go, the company goes under]. Your future raises, salaries, etc can be based on your current salary - you don't want to decrease it if at all possible.

Do they know your current job is toxic / that you're looking to get out asap? If they might, it seems like a negotiating tactic they're using to make you take what is "currently available" budget wise. If they want you so bad, they should be jumping through these hoops asap for you.
posted by Uncle Glendinning at 10:09 AM on February 10, 2020 [10 favorites]

People respect you more when you value yourself. Money is the typical metric.
posted by theora55 at 10:15 AM on February 10, 2020 [2 favorites]

They're giving you the parameters upfront. That's nice.

You want 10% more than their offer, upfront, right now. They want you to take their offer, and get 5% raises in six months and twelve months. It will be easier for them (no red tape) to just bring you on at their ask, even though they know it's low. It will be more challenging for them to bring you on at salary+10%, because they have to go to their board and make the case. You both want the same thing: for you to be employed there.

The good news is, they've already made the case internally to themselves: they've offered you the job. Do you want to play ball with the offer and meet in the middle, which is what negotiation should be? If so, try this: Tell them what what you make now isn't relevant to the market value of the job, which is $XX,XXX (the number of salary+10%). Acknowledge that you understand everyone wants this to end in you accepting this job. Ask them for 5% more upfront (rather than the 10%) and another 5% after six months, built into the contract and in writing. See if that can move the needle.
posted by juniperesque at 10:31 AM on February 10, 2020

I agree with those that say a future 5% + 5% may not carry through in practice.
You could go insist on the 10%, though they've said this would be difficult, so I think suggesting an alternative would be viewed more favorably.

So for an alternative, how about:
"I can't accept less than I'm making now, so the lowest I can go now is 48k."

If I've worked it out correctly, that is still ~8% above their initial offer, which shows a compromise, yet doesn't reduce your current value.
posted by Gomez_in_the_South at 11:35 AM on February 10, 2020 [1 favorite]

"I can't accept less than I'm making now, so the lowest I can go now is 48k."

But if you do this build in the raise guarantee to get you the full 10% too.
posted by Miko at 12:29 PM on February 10, 2020 [1 favorite]

Definitely the 10% now. This is what negotiation is. They make you a crap offer, you come back and reject it and ask for something better. They’ve even helped you by outlining an alternate path that is better for you and feasible for them. They had the option to not even mention it, but they did, so they’re aware that might be the cost of getting you on board.

And what folk have said above about compound earnings. Also, you don’t have to spend the next year hoping you’re maybe doing well enough to get bumped up to a higher salary - you’re already there on the day you walk in the door, so you’ll be less stressed for a whole 12 months.

Actually work out and write down somewhere the difference in the amount of money coming your way over the next 12 months under the two options. A few thousand, presumably? If someone walked up to you with that sum in an envelope and said “I could just give you this money, but it might be a bit of a hassle for me, do you want it?” Your answer would surely be “Oh, sorry for the hassle, yes I do.”
posted by penguin pie at 1:02 PM on February 10, 2020 [1 favorite]

I would go for 10% now. You have a job in hand, so you can tolerate a little longer to get a better deal. When I had an offer but was expecting a raise/promotion by end of year at the job I had (they were on a semi-schedule and I'd been told by the office manager I was slated for the next semi-annual period), I negotiated like I already had the promotion. I was willing to wait, and did end up waiting (revised offer took 4 months because they needed to wait til the next fiscal year to have money back in the hiring budget). But I got a deal that worked for me financially and a better workplace, not one or the other.
posted by DoubleLune at 1:19 PM on February 10, 2020 [2 favorites]

Response by poster: Thanks for the advice so far! I am a woman for someone who guessed. I have negotiated successfully for my current job, but that’s about it. I think I will aim for the 10% now rather than 5/5 later, and after reading through some comments, hoping this isn’t a red flag with how they worded this way. The person who is hiring does know I don’t like my current job, and we are friends, which is why I’m giving them the benefit of the doubt that they said “Well, I’m just being candid, but it’s gonna take us longer if you ask for it upfront.” I do not mind waiting if that’s the case (I waited a year I can wait another few weeks, just seems like they don’t want to wait) and will try to come up with further justifications. I was once told that current salary isn’t a “good enough” justification, but I may throw that in as suggested.

Worse comes to worse, they say No and I still may take the job. Will definitely look closely at the benefits! Thank you all.
posted by socky bottoms at 1:22 PM on February 10, 2020

I was waiting for an update! As I said in my previous post, take this job to get out of a toxic situation...but most people make raises when they make job changes. You're shooting yourself in the foot by taking a salary cut. Take the job, and aggressively keep looking. The right opportunity could still be out there.
posted by unexpected at 1:47 PM on February 10, 2020

Don't forget that 5% now and 5% later is also likely to screw you out of the COL raise that you might have got had you gone in at 10%. When everyone else is getting their next COL bump they'll be expecting you to be happy that 5% is higher than what everyone else is getting.
posted by quacks like a duck at 1:51 PM on February 10, 2020 [2 favorites]

hoping this isn’t a red flag with how they worded this way

This is not at all a red flag.
posted by grouse at 2:06 PM on February 10, 2020

> I was once told that current salary isn’t a “good enough” justification, but I may throw that in as suggested.

The Bureau of Labor publishes statistics if you actually think data would change opinions. I doubt it will. But as a negotiating point, 'your offer is worse than the one I already have' is literally the definition of BATNA. Taken together they form a fairly logical argument of "your offer is below market rate and I don't have to accept it."

It's obviously difficult to say no when your work place is toxic. You may have to accept the paycut to get out. If you do, def go in with the knowledge that promised raises rarely materialize and that you will be back on the market in a year when the 5/5 doesn't happen.
posted by pwnguin at 3:38 PM on February 10, 2020 [1 favorite]

Response by poster: I don't know if anyone is still following this, but if you are, just wanted to say thank you! In the end, I did accept the job and I'm able to leave my toxic job! I spoke to my mentors and folks who know this workplace well and I think it will be the best choice for now. I will have the opportunity to be trained for a job I've really wanted.

They were not able to budge with the negotiation, and I did go with the 5/5. It turns out this is not abnormal, which was a relief, and I should have mentioned, this is a job with the state government. Apparently this happens quite often where they do the 5/5 because it allows more wiggle room and they don't have to take it up to the governor and can just do it internally.

At least, if you know, everything doesn't work out in some sad ending, my future boss said that she would support me however that was, even if it was trying to get me a promotion and that took me out of that department. In contrast to my current boss who has threatened to kill me if I left, this is weirdly refreshing. Thank you all for your advice. I will continue to try to negotiate going forward!
posted by socky bottoms at 4:24 PM on February 12, 2020 [6 favorites]