Can or should I still negotiate?
January 27, 2020 11:50 AM Subscribe
Interview coming up and I finished round one. I’m super excited about the job except for the pay, and wondering if it’s reasonable to negotiate in this situation.
I desperately want to leave my toxic job, but I also need to make enough to keep my apartment. This new job is a longer commute but sounds really awesome work culture wise. I know some folks who work there.
When they posted the job, and it’s still posted, the salary range was quite wide. It happened once before where I interviewed for a job that was like a $50k-$70k range, and then they told me that they actually don’t have the funding to hire above $51k. I was so bummed. And also, I don’t understand why that happens.
Same thing happened with this position. I was notified that their range was large, they wanted to let me know they actually will hire closer to the minimum, with some room for negotiation. They said if this bothers me, I can drop out of the interview. But I’m so excited for the job (and was nervous at the time) that I continued on. They will have final rounds soon.
Let’s say the range is $40k to $60k, and I am making $48k, with originally the hope to get at least $50k. Researching pay for this title and with my experience, pay is usually $54k but I guess because this is a new position, they decided to stick lower? I have no clue how close to the minimum they would be, like if it was $43k offer, and I could negotiate to my current pay, I would be happy. I would ecstatic to get $50k, but I can’t tell if asking for $10k above the minimum will instantly get me kicked out of the interview. What is a reasonable range to ask for above the minimum, when I’m not entirely sure how close to the minimum they are? They are a large organization. A friend is a hiring manager and told me at the very least, jobs try to get you onboard with the lowest offer possible, and if they put the range that high, they should have some money in the budget for more. But I don’t think they would tell me about their plan if that was the case...
Should I try and negotiate to my desired number or is that not a good idea because that’s too high? And essentially they might say “Woah, we told you we are hiring towards the minimum, did you not listen” if I negotiate. How can I tell it’s too high? Is there like a general rule to follow on % more when it comes to negotiating salary? And why do companies advertise a big range but then only plan/can offer the lower range? Thanks!
I desperately want to leave my toxic job, but I also need to make enough to keep my apartment. This new job is a longer commute but sounds really awesome work culture wise. I know some folks who work there.
When they posted the job, and it’s still posted, the salary range was quite wide. It happened once before where I interviewed for a job that was like a $50k-$70k range, and then they told me that they actually don’t have the funding to hire above $51k. I was so bummed. And also, I don’t understand why that happens.
Same thing happened with this position. I was notified that their range was large, they wanted to let me know they actually will hire closer to the minimum, with some room for negotiation. They said if this bothers me, I can drop out of the interview. But I’m so excited for the job (and was nervous at the time) that I continued on. They will have final rounds soon.
Let’s say the range is $40k to $60k, and I am making $48k, with originally the hope to get at least $50k. Researching pay for this title and with my experience, pay is usually $54k but I guess because this is a new position, they decided to stick lower? I have no clue how close to the minimum they would be, like if it was $43k offer, and I could negotiate to my current pay, I would be happy. I would ecstatic to get $50k, but I can’t tell if asking for $10k above the minimum will instantly get me kicked out of the interview. What is a reasonable range to ask for above the minimum, when I’m not entirely sure how close to the minimum they are? They are a large organization. A friend is a hiring manager and told me at the very least, jobs try to get you onboard with the lowest offer possible, and if they put the range that high, they should have some money in the budget for more. But I don’t think they would tell me about their plan if that was the case...
Should I try and negotiate to my desired number or is that not a good idea because that’s too high? And essentially they might say “Woah, we told you we are hiring towards the minimum, did you not listen” if I negotiate. How can I tell it’s too high? Is there like a general rule to follow on % more when it comes to negotiating salary? And why do companies advertise a big range but then only plan/can offer the lower range? Thanks!
I would go in with a specific number and just have it in your head to not go below. There will be other jobs, for more money, if you look hard enough, and often it's easy to forget this when a potentially great one falls into your lap. As the person above says, if they really want you they'll keep you. Sounds like they may be bluffing, or something, but either way it doesn't feel honest or fair to set you up with an expectation and then immediately take it away.
posted by starstarstar at 11:59 AM on January 27, 2020 [6 favorites]
posted by starstarstar at 11:59 AM on January 27, 2020 [6 favorites]
Response by poster: Oh! I should note that the place I’m commuting to is a big city, whereas I live in a small city. I do want to eventually move to big city where this job is after my lease is up. This is also the...10th job I’ve interviewed for in the past year of trying to leave my toxic work environment. I’m SO antsy to go, even with turning down two offers that seemed like also toxic workplaces. However, it would be good to know for future negotiations if there’s a general rule for how much more I reasonably negotiate for? Thanks again!
posted by socky bottoms at 12:00 PM on January 27, 2020 [1 favorite]
posted by socky bottoms at 12:00 PM on January 27, 2020 [1 favorite]
If you can make the numbers work, and you desperately need to leave your toxic job situation, I would aggressively take the job.
It doesn't sound (based on what you described) that they have much room for negotiation. Life's too short to be stuck in toxicity, but carefully weigh the pros and cons of a longer commute before making the jump.
That being said, once you get the job, don't be afraid to keep looking. Be aggressive and open to new opportunities. A bigger city will have more opportunities for networking.
Companies do this so that they can attract better talent and then stuff them into a lower salary box. If they had said "job pays $50-$55k", their applicant pool will be less than if they say $55-$70k". They are betting they can get one high-tier applicant to accept the lower salary.
Don't be afraid to keep interviewing, hustling once you get the (or a) job. You've already seen how much respect they give to potential employees, don't be afraid to pay it in kind. You don't have to be rude or toxic about it, but there's nothing wrong with looking out for yourself first.
posted by unexpected at 12:08 PM on January 27, 2020 [2 favorites]
It doesn't sound (based on what you described) that they have much room for negotiation. Life's too short to be stuck in toxicity, but carefully weigh the pros and cons of a longer commute before making the jump.
That being said, once you get the job, don't be afraid to keep looking. Be aggressive and open to new opportunities. A bigger city will have more opportunities for networking.
Companies do this so that they can attract better talent and then stuff them into a lower salary box. If they had said "job pays $50-$55k", their applicant pool will be less than if they say $55-$70k". They are betting they can get one high-tier applicant to accept the lower salary.
Don't be afraid to keep interviewing, hustling once you get the (or a) job. You've already seen how much respect they give to potential employees, don't be afraid to pay it in kind. You don't have to be rude or toxic about it, but there's nothing wrong with looking out for yourself first.
posted by unexpected at 12:08 PM on January 27, 2020 [2 favorites]
I would tell them that you are excited about the job but you need a salary that is in the middle of their range to make the numbers work for you. If that is a possibility, you would certainly be interested in continuing to interview. If that is clearly out of their budget range, then you will have to drop out.
If they say, no then you have your answer. If they say yes, brace yourself for a low ball offer at the end - don't get so in love with the job that you don't keep on eye on your own best interests.
Also, don't name a specific number yet - and when you do, at least ask for $50 - you will need something to cover your higher commute expenses if nothing else.
posted by metahawk at 12:08 PM on January 27, 2020 [3 favorites]
If they say, no then you have your answer. If they say yes, brace yourself for a low ball offer at the end - don't get so in love with the job that you don't keep on eye on your own best interests.
Also, don't name a specific number yet - and when you do, at least ask for $50 - you will need something to cover your higher commute expenses if nothing else.
posted by metahawk at 12:08 PM on January 27, 2020 [3 favorites]
I'd let them offer you the job -- when they do that, they are invested in the outcome. Then I would say, in an email, "You've previously mentioned that while you will hire closer to the minimum, there is some room for negotiation. I am currently on 48K and looking to make 50K. Is that doable?"
posted by DarlingBri at 12:11 PM on January 27, 2020 [22 favorites]
posted by DarlingBri at 12:11 PM on January 27, 2020 [22 favorites]
Is there any room for a signing bonus? That might help defray additional costs your first year of employment.
posted by dbmcd at 12:14 PM on January 27, 2020
posted by dbmcd at 12:14 PM on January 27, 2020
It might help to know what type of job this is, or what field/industry/context it's in. Beyond money, is this the sort of job where it'll be possible to negotiate other perqs, like additional vacation days, or to work from home one day a week? Is there something non-monetary they can offer you that would help mitigate the lower salary?
I'd continue the interview process without discussing salary requirements further, since there are enough pros and cons to make either choice feel legitimate. Instead when (if) you get the offer, approach the negotiation as a low-stakes conversation: you already have a job that meets your needs, but you'd really like the position they're offering you. What can they give you (in terms of concrete quantifiable benefits, opportunities, advancement potential, etc -- i.e. both enforceable contractual obligations + hoped-for possibilities) to tip the balance. Do a little research in advance to know what's reasonable. Don't be afraid to say "That sounds great, let me think on it! I'll follow up with you tomorrow," in response to a specific offer. That way, you have the opportunity of a potentially great new job, but you also have the flexibility to walk away easily. (Bonus: as a negotiating tool, that's psychologically so nice!)
posted by tapir-whorf at 12:18 PM on January 27, 2020 [1 favorite]
I'd continue the interview process without discussing salary requirements further, since there are enough pros and cons to make either choice feel legitimate. Instead when (if) you get the offer, approach the negotiation as a low-stakes conversation: you already have a job that meets your needs, but you'd really like the position they're offering you. What can they give you (in terms of concrete quantifiable benefits, opportunities, advancement potential, etc -- i.e. both enforceable contractual obligations + hoped-for possibilities) to tip the balance. Do a little research in advance to know what's reasonable. Don't be afraid to say "That sounds great, let me think on it! I'll follow up with you tomorrow," in response to a specific offer. That way, you have the opportunity of a potentially great new job, but you also have the flexibility to walk away easily. (Bonus: as a negotiating tool, that's psychologically so nice!)
posted by tapir-whorf at 12:18 PM on January 27, 2020 [1 favorite]
You are totally fine asking for $50k. $10k above minimum is definitely in the range of a starting point for negotiations and very unlikely to make anyone mad. You might not get it, but it would be really, really unusual for them to kick you out of the process for asking. You are SUPPOSED to negotiate! And negotiation often means starting at a higher point (or lower, from their side) and meeting somewhere in the middle. So they could counter and you could end up agreeing on something like $45k, which is near the lower end, but you usually won't get $45k or $48k if you just ask for it. Ask a little higher and be pleasantly surprised if you get it. (That being said, yes, wait until you have an offer).
You could also let them offer a number first, if it's say $42k I would probably counter with saying you were looking closer to $50 but maybe have some wiggle room and at least try to get them up to $45ish, if that works for your budget. You can also use your current salary and say you don't want to go (much) below that. But if instead they offered say $48k right off the bat, ask for $50k or $52k.
Good luck!
posted by sillysally at 12:22 PM on January 27, 2020 [1 favorite]
You could also let them offer a number first, if it's say $42k I would probably counter with saying you were looking closer to $50 but maybe have some wiggle room and at least try to get them up to $45ish, if that works for your budget. You can also use your current salary and say you don't want to go (much) below that. But if instead they offered say $48k right off the bat, ask for $50k or $52k.
Good luck!
posted by sillysally at 12:22 PM on January 27, 2020 [1 favorite]
If the advertised range is $40k - $60k, and you've done the research and found "for this title and with my experience, pay is usually $54k", then ask for $54k. Don't overthink it!
Other relevant advice: Don't start negotiating pay unless/until they offer you the job. Be prepared to explain WHY you need $54k (market rate; longer commute; need to move). Don't accept their first offer when they offer it - at LEAST say "That's less than I asked, I need to think about it for a day". If they definitely, for real can't meet your salary request, ask what else they can do (signing bonus; extra vacation; w/e).
If you really want the job, you can just take it at the offered rate. They're not going to offer you the position then rescind it just because you counteroffer. You have nothing to lose.
posted by smokysunday at 12:24 PM on January 27, 2020 [15 favorites]
Other relevant advice: Don't start negotiating pay unless/until they offer you the job. Be prepared to explain WHY you need $54k (market rate; longer commute; need to move). Don't accept their first offer when they offer it - at LEAST say "That's less than I asked, I need to think about it for a day". If they definitely, for real can't meet your salary request, ask what else they can do (signing bonus; extra vacation; w/e).
If you really want the job, you can just take it at the offered rate. They're not going to offer you the position then rescind it just because you counteroffer. You have nothing to lose.
posted by smokysunday at 12:24 PM on January 27, 2020 [15 favorites]
In some large organizations, stating the range and offering at the low end of it isn't a recruiting bait and switch - it's something you have to do in order in order to provide room for performance or seniority-based raises. In other words, "$50k to $70k" means "start at $51k or $52k, and be making $68k or $69k in down the line if you're doing well." This is especially important for positions that don't offer rapid promotion opportunity but also benefit from time-in-role.
That said, remember that employers' budgets are their problem and your budget is your problem. If the job at $x isn't worth it for you but at $x + $5,000 it is, say so. If they need your talents and experience, and no one else can offer it at their preferred price, you'll get the job. If not, not.
posted by MattD at 12:25 PM on January 27, 2020 [7 favorites]
That said, remember that employers' budgets are their problem and your budget is your problem. If the job at $x isn't worth it for you but at $x + $5,000 it is, say so. If they need your talents and experience, and no one else can offer it at their preferred price, you'll get the job. If not, not.
posted by MattD at 12:25 PM on January 27, 2020 [7 favorites]
I'd let them offer you the job -- when they do that, they are invested in the outcome. Then I would say, in an email, "You've previously mentioned that while you will hire closer to the minimum, there is some room for negotiation. I am currently on 48K and looking to make 50K. Is that doable?"
DarlingBri has it right. Sometimes employers post a salary range for the position rather than a hiring salary range. Rarely would folks come in at the top. That can be confusing, though.
The best time to negotiate is after they offer you a job and before you accept. That's actually when you negotiate. Are you familiar with Ask a Manager? She's got some great content on negotiating salaries.
posted by bluedaisy at 12:30 PM on January 27, 2020 [4 favorites]
DarlingBri has it right. Sometimes employers post a salary range for the position rather than a hiring salary range. Rarely would folks come in at the top. That can be confusing, though.
The best time to negotiate is after they offer you a job and before you accept. That's actually when you negotiate. Are you familiar with Ask a Manager? She's got some great content on negotiating salaries.
posted by bluedaisy at 12:30 PM on January 27, 2020 [4 favorites]
You are responsible for negotiating your side, not both sides.
I'd be inclined to keep with the process and start a salary negotiation above my nice to have number. They can counter however they counter, but until the process plays out, they also don't know what it will cost them to fill the job. If you are the only well qualified person, you have a lot of leverage since their other option is to start over. That's really expensive.
Again, for emphasis, you are responsible for negotiating your side, not both sides.
posted by advicepig at 1:23 PM on January 27, 2020
I'd be inclined to keep with the process and start a salary negotiation above my nice to have number. They can counter however they counter, but until the process plays out, they also don't know what it will cost them to fill the job. If you are the only well qualified person, you have a lot of leverage since their other option is to start over. That's really expensive.
Again, for emphasis, you are responsible for negotiating your side, not both sides.
posted by advicepig at 1:23 PM on January 27, 2020
Response by poster: Thanks everyone! I got notification I made it to the final round and I’m going to go through with it. Using the language you all used for trying to negotiate it, thank you for that! I’ll keep you all posted.
posted by socky bottoms at 2:47 PM on January 27, 2020 [2 favorites]
posted by socky bottoms at 2:47 PM on January 27, 2020 [2 favorites]
Try to understand who you are negotiating with. Do they negotiate salaries on a regular basis or is it something they only do occasionally? You'll want to vary your strategy based on who you are negotiating with.
If your counterpart doesn't negotiate often, just listen to their first offer, take a deep breath, thank them for the offer and let them know how much you appreciate it and then ask for whatever you acutally want + some more. As the salary is a pretty subjective matter you'll want to have some room to negotiate aka to inch down from your asking number to some number in the middle making them see that you are willing to compromise on your initial number because you really want the job. If you tell them one number and let them know "I'll only work for you if you pay Z", even if they liked you before they might change their mind based on your unwillingness to compromise.
Make sure you have good arguments for why you should be at the top of their range and not at the low point. Try to make the arguments as much about yourself as possible - "other companies on average pay 54" is drastically worse than "I have a track record of a, b, c, and d, and with this experience I'll help reaching x, y, and z".
Don't allow them to just lower the default from eg. 50-70 down to 50-55 throughout the negotiation. If necessary (carefully) use argumentative paths like "assuming this is the company I purposefully applied to, I am convinced that if you offer a range, this range will actually be available and not be a trick to just attract people while not actually existing". You'll want to make sure though that they never get the feeling that you don't trust them, and that the point you are making is actually about the credibility/trustworthiness of their company and not you questioning their reputation.
Be open to different kinds of salary. Perhaps a part of your salary could be variable based on your work results? This would indicate to your potential employer that you trust yourself to deliver results - something any employer will appreciate, even if their processes were to not allow variable salary components. You could also consider agreeing to a salary on the lower bookend to start with if they agree to raise your salary within a fairly short amount of time (3 months - 1 year) to a previously defined higher number if you achieve certain targets.
If you can think of anything else they could provide & you'd be happy with - bring it up in order to increase the zone of possible agreement that meets your salary comfort zone.
posted by succulent at 2:50 PM on January 27, 2020
If your counterpart doesn't negotiate often, just listen to their first offer, take a deep breath, thank them for the offer and let them know how much you appreciate it and then ask for whatever you acutally want + some more. As the salary is a pretty subjective matter you'll want to have some room to negotiate aka to inch down from your asking number to some number in the middle making them see that you are willing to compromise on your initial number because you really want the job. If you tell them one number and let them know "I'll only work for you if you pay Z", even if they liked you before they might change their mind based on your unwillingness to compromise.
Make sure you have good arguments for why you should be at the top of their range and not at the low point. Try to make the arguments as much about yourself as possible - "other companies on average pay 54" is drastically worse than "I have a track record of a, b, c, and d, and with this experience I'll help reaching x, y, and z".
Don't allow them to just lower the default from eg. 50-70 down to 50-55 throughout the negotiation. If necessary (carefully) use argumentative paths like "assuming this is the company I purposefully applied to, I am convinced that if you offer a range, this range will actually be available and not be a trick to just attract people while not actually existing". You'll want to make sure though that they never get the feeling that you don't trust them, and that the point you are making is actually about the credibility/trustworthiness of their company and not you questioning their reputation.
Be open to different kinds of salary. Perhaps a part of your salary could be variable based on your work results? This would indicate to your potential employer that you trust yourself to deliver results - something any employer will appreciate, even if their processes were to not allow variable salary components. You could also consider agreeing to a salary on the lower bookend to start with if they agree to raise your salary within a fairly short amount of time (3 months - 1 year) to a previously defined higher number if you achieve certain targets.
If you can think of anything else they could provide & you'd be happy with - bring it up in order to increase the zone of possible agreement that meets your salary comfort zone.
posted by succulent at 2:50 PM on January 27, 2020
“If you could get me to $52K I’ll sign today.”
I’ve noticed that this phrase makes recruiters suddenly start working harder for you.
posted by JoeZydeco at 3:43 PM on January 27, 2020 [4 favorites]
I’ve noticed that this phrase makes recruiters suddenly start working harder for you.
posted by JoeZydeco at 3:43 PM on January 27, 2020 [4 favorites]
Do yourself a favor and look up your potential new employer on sites like glassdoor and maybe even h1bdata.info. It can help to know what has been offered in the past, not just what they're lowballing on the website.
And yea, if the range is particularly wide, and you need the high end to make it work, then there is definitely some risk of them using the high number as a bait. That said, I recommend for now you focus on the interviews. Now is the time to convince them you're the best person for the job. Once they've demonstrated they agree with that by making you an offer, then you can negotiate by preparing a counteroffer. When asked to make an offer, don't say yes, ask for time to prepare a counteroffer.
Notably, this counteroffer period is also the time you have the most leverage for asking questions about benefits, etc. Don't learn about the commuting options, the 401k matching policy, or the health benefits your first week, ask the recruiting team for details before you sign the offer, so you can focus that first week on learning important stuff about being good at your new job, meeting people, building professional relationships, making strong first impressions etc. I've gotten some tech bus commuter schedules this way, for example, which is handy for thinking about where I might end up renting in $new_city. So even if you receive an offer you'd be happy to immediately accept, ask for some time to prepare a counter offer, and ask your questions shortly thereafter.
posted by pwnguin at 7:30 PM on January 27, 2020
And yea, if the range is particularly wide, and you need the high end to make it work, then there is definitely some risk of them using the high number as a bait. That said, I recommend for now you focus on the interviews. Now is the time to convince them you're the best person for the job. Once they've demonstrated they agree with that by making you an offer, then you can negotiate by preparing a counteroffer. When asked to make an offer, don't say yes, ask for time to prepare a counteroffer.
Notably, this counteroffer period is also the time you have the most leverage for asking questions about benefits, etc. Don't learn about the commuting options, the 401k matching policy, or the health benefits your first week, ask the recruiting team for details before you sign the offer, so you can focus that first week on learning important stuff about being good at your new job, meeting people, building professional relationships, making strong first impressions etc. I've gotten some tech bus commuter schedules this way, for example, which is handy for thinking about where I might end up renting in $new_city. So even if you receive an offer you'd be happy to immediately accept, ask for some time to prepare a counter offer, and ask your questions shortly thereafter.
posted by pwnguin at 7:30 PM on January 27, 2020
I think you should get to the end of the interview AND THEN take the number you want.
I would not go below $54K here. Let me tell you $7K up or down is NOT A BIG DEAL (to a company at least).
Kick ass on the interview then put yourself on a position of leverage. Do NOT take the lowest offer. Trust me I wish I would have learned this earlier in my career. Now is the time to step up your negotiation skills and learn how to walk away.
posted by The1andonly at 9:46 AM on January 28, 2020 [1 favorite]
I would not go below $54K here. Let me tell you $7K up or down is NOT A BIG DEAL (to a company at least).
Kick ass on the interview then put yourself on a position of leverage. Do NOT take the lowest offer. Trust me I wish I would have learned this earlier in my career. Now is the time to step up your negotiation skills and learn how to walk away.
posted by The1andonly at 9:46 AM on January 28, 2020 [1 favorite]
This thread is closed to new comments.
If they can't hire someone as awesome as you in the low end, maybe they'll reach out and offer you what you need. Continue networking and applying to more jobs, but this one is going to make it very hard to continue interviewing while you are working there, especially with the long commute.
posted by bilabial at 11:55 AM on January 27, 2020 [4 favorites]