I was let go from my job. I suspect this was retaliation. Advice?
October 30, 2019 11:39 AM
I was recently let go from my job, and I'm suspecting this is a targeted retaliation. More details in the fold.
Sigh. The saga continues.
A bit after my previous questions here, Debbie threw a major project on me at relatively the last minute. After sending her an email suggesting we postpone the deadline of the project needs, with several listed solutions, she approached me in my office angrily and said she did not appreciate my approach and that she felt I was pushing back, and repeatedly said what I did was not okay at all. (I checked with a couple of co-workers; they all agreed my email to Debbie was professional and kind.)
I was very shaken by this approach and the way how some things were said, so I went to my organization's representative... let's call him an advocate. He is tasked with cutting through the red tape, facilitating/mediating conversations/conflict between co-workers, and pushing for positive change. After explaining everything that had transpired between Debbie and I in the past few weeks, he recognized me as being in a possible hostile work environment, and recommended he set a meeting up with me and my boss (which I'll call Mary Pat here), then go from there. I agreed. I got my documentation on Debbie together and sent it to him.
A bit later, on a day, the advocate called me, asking if Mary Pat and I were available to meet. After I asked her, she said no, not on that day, but she could another day. I then gave Mary Pat a heads up that I had reached out to the advocate (so she wouldn't be caught by surprise) and that it had absolutely nothing to do with her (I also didn't mention it was about Debbie), but not to be surprised if the advocate reached out to her to set up a meeting. Mary Pat didn't seem to have a problem with that.
Interestingly, Debbie became nicer after the incident between us, actually giving me positive feedback and complimenting other sectors of my work. She asked me to set up different how-to guides for different areas of our work, in addition to other normal tasks. I thought nothing of it, as we had been doing a lot of organizing and cleaning up of our work tools, and in the past, I had provided written guidelines for contingency purposes.
All went well, until recently. Then came down the axe. I was told by HR that my position was dissolved/closed, and that it was my last day. I was in shock, and tears were shed. Many questions came to mind... rent, health insurance, etc., and I'm still processing it. I was told the decision to close my position was made by Mary Pat. I was told this was part of an overall reorganization and budget constraints, and that my position was closed. I was told this was not related to performance.
However, I suspect this is retaliation, and I'm not sure how to proceed. I have reached out to the advocate, and hopefully we will be able to hold a meeting ASAP.
My questions/thoughts are:
a) When I met with Mary Pat to discuss my job duties (before this whole saga mess ensued), I was told she was considering a XX position in general, and was asked if I wanted to lead/own a specific project. I told her that sounded good, and I'd need to think it over a bit. She agreed, and said she needed to think about it, too.
a1) If she seemed to have work in mind for me to do, why drop me? Also, I'm more of a "jack-of-all-trades" person, so can contribute to the team. She has seen that.
a2) No positions were available for me. Why not reassign me to title XX, or change my title? I thought I was wanted/needed on the team.
b) We had a brand-new hire recently. With budget constraints/a reorganization? Makes no sense.
c) I was the only one on my team who was let go. This despite me being a more "senior" team member (as in, being there the longest, holding a lot of organizational knowledge, and being asked for help on a lot of things by newer members...not bragging, just saying it is what it is).
d) The timing is way too "coincidental"... after giving Mary Pat a heads up I went to the advocate (although I didn't mention it was about Debbie, and emphasized it had nothing to do with Mary Pat), shortly after (in the span of a week or so), I got let go.
e) Team members kept telling me they needed my help, how valuable my help was, how reliable and resourceful I was, and how much I contributed. Even the more senior-level members recognized that. When I shared the news with them, they were very upset by the news that I was let go. More than one said this was very unfair, and cruel, to me.
I'm at-will, unfortunately, and there is no clear evidence of discrimination or targeting, but those questions/observations above do seem to point in that direction. Debbie asking me to do the to-do guides indicates she might have known (or even advocated) my impending departure. Overall, something seems very fishy here. I feel deep down in my gut that I was targeted with retaliation because I "dared" to talk to the advocate, or Debbie recommended I be let go. I could be wrong in this, though, and it was really just happenstance, but I kind of doubt it, given the circumstances and timing.
What would you recommend I do to navigate this and try to get my job back? It's possible I'm being unrealistic, but this is truly unfair, especially after all I have done for the office, working hard and always procuring quality work. My organization, as a bigger silo, has strict rules about hiring and separations, so I'm hoping I can try to appeal this somehow. I know sometimes life is unfair and people get laid off or let go, and business is business, but in this specific case, it really feels like retaliation to me. Other perspectives are welcomed, though.
I'm job-hunting at the moment, but I'm still in shock and still devastated. I've been loyal to this organization for many years, and this is what I get?
Anyway, ranting aside, please let me know or advise what my options/any venues of recourse are, and if you had any similar experiences that you were able to get through. Thank you. And apologies for being vague on some details, I want to avoid being identified in any way possible.
Sigh. The saga continues.
A bit after my previous questions here, Debbie threw a major project on me at relatively the last minute. After sending her an email suggesting we postpone the deadline of the project needs, with several listed solutions, she approached me in my office angrily and said she did not appreciate my approach and that she felt I was pushing back, and repeatedly said what I did was not okay at all. (I checked with a couple of co-workers; they all agreed my email to Debbie was professional and kind.)
I was very shaken by this approach and the way how some things were said, so I went to my organization's representative... let's call him an advocate. He is tasked with cutting through the red tape, facilitating/mediating conversations/conflict between co-workers, and pushing for positive change. After explaining everything that had transpired between Debbie and I in the past few weeks, he recognized me as being in a possible hostile work environment, and recommended he set a meeting up with me and my boss (which I'll call Mary Pat here), then go from there. I agreed. I got my documentation on Debbie together and sent it to him.
A bit later, on a day, the advocate called me, asking if Mary Pat and I were available to meet. After I asked her, she said no, not on that day, but she could another day. I then gave Mary Pat a heads up that I had reached out to the advocate (so she wouldn't be caught by surprise) and that it had absolutely nothing to do with her (I also didn't mention it was about Debbie), but not to be surprised if the advocate reached out to her to set up a meeting. Mary Pat didn't seem to have a problem with that.
Interestingly, Debbie became nicer after the incident between us, actually giving me positive feedback and complimenting other sectors of my work. She asked me to set up different how-to guides for different areas of our work, in addition to other normal tasks. I thought nothing of it, as we had been doing a lot of organizing and cleaning up of our work tools, and in the past, I had provided written guidelines for contingency purposes.
All went well, until recently. Then came down the axe. I was told by HR that my position was dissolved/closed, and that it was my last day. I was in shock, and tears were shed. Many questions came to mind... rent, health insurance, etc., and I'm still processing it. I was told the decision to close my position was made by Mary Pat. I was told this was part of an overall reorganization and budget constraints, and that my position was closed. I was told this was not related to performance.
However, I suspect this is retaliation, and I'm not sure how to proceed. I have reached out to the advocate, and hopefully we will be able to hold a meeting ASAP.
My questions/thoughts are:
a) When I met with Mary Pat to discuss my job duties (before this whole saga mess ensued), I was told she was considering a XX position in general, and was asked if I wanted to lead/own a specific project. I told her that sounded good, and I'd need to think it over a bit. She agreed, and said she needed to think about it, too.
a1) If she seemed to have work in mind for me to do, why drop me? Also, I'm more of a "jack-of-all-trades" person, so can contribute to the team. She has seen that.
a2) No positions were available for me. Why not reassign me to title XX, or change my title? I thought I was wanted/needed on the team.
b) We had a brand-new hire recently. With budget constraints/a reorganization? Makes no sense.
c) I was the only one on my team who was let go. This despite me being a more "senior" team member (as in, being there the longest, holding a lot of organizational knowledge, and being asked for help on a lot of things by newer members...not bragging, just saying it is what it is).
d) The timing is way too "coincidental"... after giving Mary Pat a heads up I went to the advocate (although I didn't mention it was about Debbie, and emphasized it had nothing to do with Mary Pat), shortly after (in the span of a week or so), I got let go.
e) Team members kept telling me they needed my help, how valuable my help was, how reliable and resourceful I was, and how much I contributed. Even the more senior-level members recognized that. When I shared the news with them, they were very upset by the news that I was let go. More than one said this was very unfair, and cruel, to me.
I'm at-will, unfortunately, and there is no clear evidence of discrimination or targeting, but those questions/observations above do seem to point in that direction. Debbie asking me to do the to-do guides indicates she might have known (or even advocated) my impending departure. Overall, something seems very fishy here. I feel deep down in my gut that I was targeted with retaliation because I "dared" to talk to the advocate, or Debbie recommended I be let go. I could be wrong in this, though, and it was really just happenstance, but I kind of doubt it, given the circumstances and timing.
What would you recommend I do to navigate this and try to get my job back? It's possible I'm being unrealistic, but this is truly unfair, especially after all I have done for the office, working hard and always procuring quality work. My organization, as a bigger silo, has strict rules about hiring and separations, so I'm hoping I can try to appeal this somehow. I know sometimes life is unfair and people get laid off or let go, and business is business, but in this specific case, it really feels like retaliation to me. Other perspectives are welcomed, though.
I'm job-hunting at the moment, but I'm still in shock and still devastated. I've been loyal to this organization for many years, and this is what I get?
Anyway, ranting aside, please let me know or advise what my options/any venues of recourse are, and if you had any similar experiences that you were able to get through. Thank you. And apologies for being vague on some details, I want to avoid being identified in any way possible.
This sounds awful. It sounds like Debbie may have had it in mind to drive you off and fill the team with her own loyalists.
You could go consult with an employment law attorney. The initial consult should be free or very low cost. The fact that you made contact with the advocate could help and any documenting of the situation you did will also help. They'll let you know whether it's worth pursuing. Any legal action will take a long time to finish and there may not be a satisfactory result for you.
That said, is this where you want to focus your energy right now? I'd concentrate on getting my unemployment benefits and making sure that the company paid out my accrued vacation and what they owed me within the required time frame and then focus on finding a new job. This is a terrible shock and very unfair, but this doesn't sound like a situation that you would want to return to anyway. I'd allow myself a couple of days of feeling bad and then I'd aggressively get into a job search and let my network know that I'm looking. Good luck!
posted by quince at 11:56 AM on October 30, 2019
You could go consult with an employment law attorney. The initial consult should be free or very low cost. The fact that you made contact with the advocate could help and any documenting of the situation you did will also help. They'll let you know whether it's worth pursuing. Any legal action will take a long time to finish and there may not be a satisfactory result for you.
That said, is this where you want to focus your energy right now? I'd concentrate on getting my unemployment benefits and making sure that the company paid out my accrued vacation and what they owed me within the required time frame and then focus on finding a new job. This is a terrible shock and very unfair, but this doesn't sound like a situation that you would want to return to anyway. I'd allow myself a couple of days of feeling bad and then I'd aggressively get into a job search and let my network know that I'm looking. Good luck!
posted by quince at 11:56 AM on October 30, 2019
What would you recommend I do to navigate this and try to get my job back?
You don't. You start applying for new jobs.
You have given no indication you were discriminated against for being a member of any protected groups. Even if you were, you seem to have no evidence to that effect. Your employer may have strict policies on hiring and terminations, but your employer also has the ability to ignore and/or suspend those policies.
It is a legal question whether there are any particular specifics of your local law that your employer may have violated. Even if they did, employment law is not self-enforcing. It requires either the local employment governmental agencies to start an enforcement action or for you to pursue a lawsuit against your employer. I'm not sure where you live, but at least the US Department of Labor is not especially well-funded or motivated to pursue these claims. If you pursue a lawsuit, you should keep in mind that legal action can take a significant amount of time and money, and may not actually pay off in any meaningful fashion. Further, you may find yourself blacklisted for employment due to pursuing action against your employer - at least in the US, this is illegal, but you should not kid yourself into thinking it doesn't happen.
You have a finite amount of attention in the world. It sounds like you were screwed over, and that doesn't feel good. However, pursuing quixotic actions to get your job back takes away from that attention, limiting your ability to pursue actually useful responses. Do you actually want your job back? Do you really want to work for an employer that has shown itself willing to do everything you documented above? I would suggest you focus on your next opportunity.
posted by saeculorum at 11:58 AM on October 30, 2019
You don't. You start applying for new jobs.
You have given no indication you were discriminated against for being a member of any protected groups. Even if you were, you seem to have no evidence to that effect. Your employer may have strict policies on hiring and terminations, but your employer also has the ability to ignore and/or suspend those policies.
It is a legal question whether there are any particular specifics of your local law that your employer may have violated. Even if they did, employment law is not self-enforcing. It requires either the local employment governmental agencies to start an enforcement action or for you to pursue a lawsuit against your employer. I'm not sure where you live, but at least the US Department of Labor is not especially well-funded or motivated to pursue these claims. If you pursue a lawsuit, you should keep in mind that legal action can take a significant amount of time and money, and may not actually pay off in any meaningful fashion. Further, you may find yourself blacklisted for employment due to pursuing action against your employer - at least in the US, this is illegal, but you should not kid yourself into thinking it doesn't happen.
You have a finite amount of attention in the world. It sounds like you were screwed over, and that doesn't feel good. However, pursuing quixotic actions to get your job back takes away from that attention, limiting your ability to pursue actually useful responses. Do you actually want your job back? Do you really want to work for an employer that has shown itself willing to do everything you documented above? I would suggest you focus on your next opportunity.
posted by saeculorum at 11:58 AM on October 30, 2019
Apologies if it was there and I missed it, but is the retaliation in some way related to discrimination based on a protected classification? IANYL but generally employers are only prohibited from retaliating against employees in connection to discrimination based on a protected classification like sex, race, disability, religion etc.
posted by ElizaMain at 12:00 PM on October 30, 2019
posted by ElizaMain at 12:00 PM on October 30, 2019
If the "advocate" was a Union rep, that could also be protected.
posted by lazuli at 12:19 PM on October 30, 2019
posted by lazuli at 12:19 PM on October 30, 2019
And if you are in a union, definitely talk to your union rep about this.
posted by lazuli at 12:21 PM on October 30, 2019
posted by lazuli at 12:21 PM on October 30, 2019
IANYL, but unless your firing violated federal, state, or local anti-discrimination law (and it sounds like it didn't), laws protecting whistleblowers (which ordinarily cover only conduct suspected to be illegal) or union-related activity, or your individual or a union contract, you don't have much recourse here. I'm really sorry this happened to you, but it also sounds like it was a miserable situation that it doesn't make much sense to fight to get back into.
posted by praemunire at 12:22 PM on October 30, 2019
posted by praemunire at 12:22 PM on October 30, 2019
Quickly following up to some replies: non-union, non-contract, located in the USA (sorry, didn't want to become too specific with where for fear of being potentially identified, but I will say it's somewhere around on the Northeastern coast), and does not seem like this was discrimination based on protected classes within the organization.
posted by thoughtful_analyst at 12:25 PM on October 30, 2019
posted by thoughtful_analyst at 12:25 PM on October 30, 2019
Contact an employment lawyer in your jurisdiction. That person will have the best advice for you.
posted by sallybrown at 12:27 PM on October 30, 2019
posted by sallybrown at 12:27 PM on October 30, 2019
You got laid off in an at-will state. Apply for unemployment asap to tide you over while you apply for new jobs. In your prior questions, you noted your organization was not doing well financially, numerous people had been laid off/fired, and you were underpaid. I'm sorry you lost your job, but look at this as an opportunity to find a job that pays you what you're worth in an environment that makes you happy. Use the unemployment income to tide you over until that happens.
posted by DoubleLune at 12:38 PM on October 30, 2019
posted by DoubleLune at 12:38 PM on October 30, 2019
It sounds like you were in a difficult work environment and I’m sorry any of this happened to you. That said, “retaliation” in this context means more than deciding you were a pain for complaining about unfairness, and finding any excuse to get you out the door. It’s not right, but that’s what this sounds like to me, and it’s difficult to prove or to reverse.
I think your best bet is to apply for unemployment on the grounds that you were laid off, and then contact an employment lawyer to find out about severance pay, requirements for notice, etc.. You might be able to get your former employer to pay you some extra salary after letting you go. (Even in an at-will environment, some employers might want to do this rather than go to the hassle and expense of being sued.)
posted by rpfields at 1:25 PM on October 30, 2019
I think your best bet is to apply for unemployment on the grounds that you were laid off, and then contact an employment lawyer to find out about severance pay, requirements for notice, etc.. You might be able to get your former employer to pay you some extra salary after letting you go. (Even in an at-will environment, some employers might want to do this rather than go to the hassle and expense of being sued.)
posted by rpfields at 1:25 PM on October 30, 2019
You could consult a lawyer to see if you can negotiate better severance/exit conditions, and it may be worthwhile for your peace of mind. But that’s pretty much it; best to focus on moving forward. The best way to understand this, I think, is that Debbie was brought it to change things and you were a part of that restructuring. You won’t get your job back. Your peers’ opinions are just that and it’s your boss’s say who stays and who goes, especially in a non-unionized environment in an at-will state.
Be good to yourself, it’s a big shock but I’m sure there are great things ahead.
posted by warriorqueen at 1:41 PM on October 30, 2019
Be good to yourself, it’s a big shock but I’m sure there are great things ahead.
posted by warriorqueen at 1:41 PM on October 30, 2019
I know you are asking how to get your job back...but, reading your past AskMes linked, sheesh, look at this as a blessing in disguise. I don't know why you'd fight to get back into that environment.
Find a new job, breathe easy that you don't have to deal with any of that any more. Acknowledge that you can do better work somewhere else.
(And, don't fall into the trap of thinking that you can't find a new job because you were bad at your old one; finding a job is hard, shake off whatever you think this job has hung around your neck, you can do it.)
posted by AzraelBrown at 1:56 PM on October 30, 2019
Find a new job, breathe easy that you don't have to deal with any of that any more. Acknowledge that you can do better work somewhere else.
(And, don't fall into the trap of thinking that you can't find a new job because you were bad at your old one; finding a job is hard, shake off whatever you think this job has hung around your neck, you can do it.)
posted by AzraelBrown at 1:56 PM on October 30, 2019
If you’re in an at-will/ right to work state, there isn’t anything you can do, really, unless you were told expressly that it was a retaliatory move.
posted by Thorzdad at 2:20 PM on October 30, 2019
posted by Thorzdad at 2:20 PM on October 30, 2019
Thanks for all the helpful suggestions so far. A few questions.
a) When I met with HR, I was given a letter explaining the severance pay, etc., that I'd be paid. At the end of the letter, it asked for my signature to acknowledge that I read and understood the letter. I was also told there'd be a follow up meeting with HR to discuss more the benefits, etc. that I'd be losing. Would this meeting be the ideal time to try and negotiate my severance pay and/or salary? I was placed on administrative leave for two weeks and given four weeks of severance pay, plus unused annual leave—which isn't too bad, but how would you recommend I negotiate for more? Magic words to use, etc.
b) I know you don't have the answers, but WHY ME? Why me out of the whole team? After all I've done over the years, all of my reliable and loyal help? Of course, I wasn't perfect, but I always tried my darned best to help, and I know my teammates really appreciated me. Why did they hire someone recently, but lay me, and only me, off? That's why I feel targeted.
c) Why did Mary Pat mention another position then decide to eliminate my position completely without even another position for me? At least create the new position and assign me to it. This shows that she didn't want me on the team, I would think? Maybe there's a business angle I'm overlooking (I'm probably over-focusing on the emotional aspect of this), but seriously, she knew I was willing to contribute and was flexible. She also knew me being laid off would impact the team. It just makes no sense.
posted by thoughtful_analyst at 2:22 PM on October 30, 2019
a) When I met with HR, I was given a letter explaining the severance pay, etc., that I'd be paid. At the end of the letter, it asked for my signature to acknowledge that I read and understood the letter. I was also told there'd be a follow up meeting with HR to discuss more the benefits, etc. that I'd be losing. Would this meeting be the ideal time to try and negotiate my severance pay and/or salary? I was placed on administrative leave for two weeks and given four weeks of severance pay, plus unused annual leave—which isn't too bad, but how would you recommend I negotiate for more? Magic words to use, etc.
b) I know you don't have the answers, but WHY ME? Why me out of the whole team? After all I've done over the years, all of my reliable and loyal help? Of course, I wasn't perfect, but I always tried my darned best to help, and I know my teammates really appreciated me. Why did they hire someone recently, but lay me, and only me, off? That's why I feel targeted.
c) Why did Mary Pat mention another position then decide to eliminate my position completely without even another position for me? At least create the new position and assign me to it. This shows that she didn't want me on the team, I would think? Maybe there's a business angle I'm overlooking (I'm probably over-focusing on the emotional aspect of this), but seriously, she knew I was willing to contribute and was flexible. She also knew me being laid off would impact the team. It just makes no sense.
posted by thoughtful_analyst at 2:22 PM on October 30, 2019
And why I want to go back: the good teammates, the very cushy benefits (health insurance, etc.) and eligibility for student loan PSLF payments due to my organization being a nonprofit. But you're right, it was a toxic and negative environment, especially with Debbie.
Sorry for the double threadsit. Forgot to include this information in the previous comment.
posted by thoughtful_analyst at 2:25 PM on October 30, 2019
Sorry for the double threadsit. Forgot to include this information in the previous comment.
posted by thoughtful_analyst at 2:25 PM on October 30, 2019
I know you don't have the answers, but WHY ME? Why me out of the whole team?
Look...it's a really hard thing to be laid off unexpectedly. (Definitely think about having a lawyer consult before your meeting.) I don't know that ruminating will help. It became a bad match. Life will be better without this bad match!
That said, and I am saying this warmly, reading your last two questions this was predictable. You keep talking about your length of service and your peers appreciating you but the writing was on the wall from the minute Debbie came in at the will of the director.
(It's extremely possible that this has been coming down for months.)
This is brutal, but the thing is...when managers bring in outside people, especially when resources are thin, that in itself is very very often a statement that they do not think the people they have are the right people. They are saying they want someone else there that they can work with.
Also, length of service is often not an asset. If you've been there longest you are often seen as the most expensive person on the team. This sucks!! I am building an organization differently! But it is how a lot of people think.
Most likely, what you called micromanagement was Debbie seeing if you would fall in line with the new way/her way/whatever way and you were miserable and you asked for meetings.
It's not 100% true (like in medicine), but it's often true, especially if you're talking about writing-type jobs, that your job is to make your boss's life easier. Your boss (the director) brought Debbie in, and Debbie wasn't like "hey, thoughtful_analyst is the best!"
So where does this leave you?
With skills, with good references, and with some compensation to look for the next job. In that job, the one tweak you can make is stay sensitive to whatever whomever you are reporting to is bringing in, and get behind that. I've been laid off and it was the best thing that happened to me. I would definitely take a bit of time to grieve and be angry but then go see all the better things out there.
posted by warriorqueen at 2:39 PM on October 30, 2019
Look...it's a really hard thing to be laid off unexpectedly. (Definitely think about having a lawyer consult before your meeting.) I don't know that ruminating will help. It became a bad match. Life will be better without this bad match!
That said, and I am saying this warmly, reading your last two questions this was predictable. You keep talking about your length of service and your peers appreciating you but the writing was on the wall from the minute Debbie came in at the will of the director.
(It's extremely possible that this has been coming down for months.)
This is brutal, but the thing is...when managers bring in outside people, especially when resources are thin, that in itself is very very often a statement that they do not think the people they have are the right people. They are saying they want someone else there that they can work with.
Also, length of service is often not an asset. If you've been there longest you are often seen as the most expensive person on the team. This sucks!! I am building an organization differently! But it is how a lot of people think.
Most likely, what you called micromanagement was Debbie seeing if you would fall in line with the new way/her way/whatever way and you were miserable and you asked for meetings.
It's not 100% true (like in medicine), but it's often true, especially if you're talking about writing-type jobs, that your job is to make your boss's life easier. Your boss (the director) brought Debbie in, and Debbie wasn't like "hey, thoughtful_analyst is the best!"
So where does this leave you?
With skills, with good references, and with some compensation to look for the next job. In that job, the one tweak you can make is stay sensitive to whatever whomever you are reporting to is bringing in, and get behind that. I've been laid off and it was the best thing that happened to me. I would definitely take a bit of time to grieve and be angry but then go see all the better things out there.
posted by warriorqueen at 2:39 PM on October 30, 2019
From the outside it doesn’t look too mysterious.
1) They wanted you to work with Debbie.
2) You were unwilling/unable to work with Debbie. (For good reason, but still.)
3) Out the door you go.
I agree with you that it is totally unfair. Perhaps a takeaway from this is that companies are unfair. It’s the nature of the beast.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 2:41 PM on October 30, 2019
1) They wanted you to work with Debbie.
2) You were unwilling/unable to work with Debbie. (For good reason, but still.)
3) Out the door you go.
I agree with you that it is totally unfair. Perhaps a takeaway from this is that companies are unfair. It’s the nature of the beast.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 2:41 PM on October 30, 2019
My company has an advocate and I would never trust or seek this person out if I was desiring true advocacy. My company culture is very insular and ruthless -- yours may be different. Merely reaching out to my advocate, valid complaint or not, would automatically place me in a poor light.
If I were let go from my organization, I would never expect them to change their minds and hire me back immediately. If you were truly let go for budgetaty reasons, a rehire might be possible down the road, but I would not be optimistic for a change of heart if I were let go for complaining. I don't know if negotiating severance pay with HR would be fruitful, but why not give it a try? You have nothing to lose. HR is not in your corner as a rule, as you're probably aware. They will probably be unreceptive to negotiations, thoughts, ideas, complaints, or story, unless there are legal reasons to do so, but again, at this juncture try to negotiate.
I don't think your typical corporate enterprise, nonprofit or not, is interested in hearing if someone is toxic or micromanaging or demanding or rude or whatever. They aren't interested in hearing that you're overburdened.
I'm jaded but loyalty and reliability doesn't mean much and unfortunately seeking help from an advocate translates as disloyal and too much work. If Debbie is producing it's all that matters. I work for a non-profit as well. My manager is unprofessional to say the least, despite this she produces so I wouldn't expect someone to take "my side".
It sucks, and it is a shock, but from your previous question your pay wasn't what you wanted. You had real problems with Debbie. You have a gut feeling. See this as an opportunity to start anew.
posted by loveandhappiness at 2:43 PM on October 30, 2019
If I were let go from my organization, I would never expect them to change their minds and hire me back immediately. If you were truly let go for budgetaty reasons, a rehire might be possible down the road, but I would not be optimistic for a change of heart if I were let go for complaining. I don't know if negotiating severance pay with HR would be fruitful, but why not give it a try? You have nothing to lose. HR is not in your corner as a rule, as you're probably aware. They will probably be unreceptive to negotiations, thoughts, ideas, complaints, or story, unless there are legal reasons to do so, but again, at this juncture try to negotiate.
I don't think your typical corporate enterprise, nonprofit or not, is interested in hearing if someone is toxic or micromanaging or demanding or rude or whatever. They aren't interested in hearing that you're overburdened.
I'm jaded but loyalty and reliability doesn't mean much and unfortunately seeking help from an advocate translates as disloyal and too much work. If Debbie is producing it's all that matters. I work for a non-profit as well. My manager is unprofessional to say the least, despite this she produces so I wouldn't expect someone to take "my side".
It sucks, and it is a shock, but from your previous question your pay wasn't what you wanted. You had real problems with Debbie. You have a gut feeling. See this as an opportunity to start anew.
posted by loveandhappiness at 2:43 PM on October 30, 2019
Why you? Because you’re senior. The person they just hired will do the same work you do but for less money. Especially at a company with financial problems, making significantly more than your potential replacement puts a giant target on your back.
posted by kevinbelt at 3:11 PM on October 30, 2019
posted by kevinbelt at 3:11 PM on October 30, 2019
Many companies nowadays have a policy of laying off the workers with more tenure. They have more experience and generally are better at the job than newer employees, but they also have wages commensurate with the years they have put in.
The decision comes at budget time, that payroll must be trimmed by so many dollars and then they hunt around to find the people they can get rid of to handle that goal. So if there is someone else who could do your job, or several someones who could do it together that makes you vulnerable. Since the bottom line is much more important than the actual work you are doing, from their standpoint having a new grad who makes $27,000 per year and wouldn't dream of pushing back against any problems, is way better than you who has been making $34,000 and stands up to your bosses. If Mary Pat and Debbie both said, "Yeah, I can do without thoughtful better than my other two direct reports and we can train brand new hire to do his job," then out you go.
They do this because they are in direct competition with some other companies who are doing this. They don't often care how well you do your job, so long as you can actually do it. If you can make the phone calls and turn in the reports, that can be less important than the actual quality of the work you are doing. It may be that you were contributing to higher sales, and that is of higher value than the $7,000 per year that they save by replacing you with New Hire, but many companies now are either being deliberately run into the ground, or having to compete with companies that are being deliberately run into the ground. In these circumstances your supervisors would have to argue with the manager who told them to cut payroll by at least $8,000 per year from your department, and successfully convince him that the job you do is so much better than the job your replacement could do that it is far more cost efficient to keep you. They don't want to do this, because if they do they make themselves vulnerable to the lay offs that could be about to happen at their level.
So very possibly it's not you, it's your demographic.
posted by Jane the Brown at 4:34 PM on October 30, 2019
The decision comes at budget time, that payroll must be trimmed by so many dollars and then they hunt around to find the people they can get rid of to handle that goal. So if there is someone else who could do your job, or several someones who could do it together that makes you vulnerable. Since the bottom line is much more important than the actual work you are doing, from their standpoint having a new grad who makes $27,000 per year and wouldn't dream of pushing back against any problems, is way better than you who has been making $34,000 and stands up to your bosses. If Mary Pat and Debbie both said, "Yeah, I can do without thoughtful better than my other two direct reports and we can train brand new hire to do his job," then out you go.
They do this because they are in direct competition with some other companies who are doing this. They don't often care how well you do your job, so long as you can actually do it. If you can make the phone calls and turn in the reports, that can be less important than the actual quality of the work you are doing. It may be that you were contributing to higher sales, and that is of higher value than the $7,000 per year that they save by replacing you with New Hire, but many companies now are either being deliberately run into the ground, or having to compete with companies that are being deliberately run into the ground. In these circumstances your supervisors would have to argue with the manager who told them to cut payroll by at least $8,000 per year from your department, and successfully convince him that the job you do is so much better than the job your replacement could do that it is far more cost efficient to keep you. They don't want to do this, because if they do they make themselves vulnerable to the lay offs that could be about to happen at their level.
So very possibly it's not you, it's your demographic.
posted by Jane the Brown at 4:34 PM on October 30, 2019
→ … but WHY ME? Why me out of the whole team?
You're hurting and in deep shock right now. But tomorrow's the first day of you never having to deal with Debbie again. Let that great feeling wash over you. Seek out friends. Don't be alone for a while.
Six years ago, I was you (basically): great job with some despites, then totally blindsided by being let go with no warning. If there's one piece of advice I could have given my younger self is: move on. Don't let the hurt of "why me?" linger. The sole responsibility of an employer is to pay you when you show up. At most, an employee is an overhead. Sure, they probably made sounds with their mouths that you heard like they valued you, but as soon as you stop being a plus in their cash flow, they don't need you. And you need to understand it absolutely isn't personal.
If you consult with an employment lawyer, all they will do is ensure that your employer complied with the law in the settlement (mine didn't, so don't assume that yours did). You will not get a bigger settlement. You will not get revenge, because there's none to take: your particular transaction with that employer is now finished. The most you'll get extra is an adjustment to comply with the law, no more. It's probably worth it, even if it eats into your settlement a little, just to put your mind at rest.
You can try asking for more at the upcoming meeting with HR, but that's very unlikely to happen. The meeting is for them to check the box that they've complied with the law. They might have gone off to consult their lawyer (and if you can, you should too before that meeting). There's almost no chance of getting your job back. Frankly, if they do offer you your job back, run away: they're clueless and toxic.
If they offer you counselling, please understand that outplacement counselling mostly exists as a means of checking up on you to ensure you're not considering revenge. While I found my outplacement useful, the agency was quite blunt about their need to feed back any negative things I said to my former employer to assess a threat level. I do wonder what happened to the 25+ year bank branch manager — bristling and rigid with rage at being betrayed by her employer — who was part of my outplacement group.
Because I held on to the hurt of being let go, because I wasn't kind to myself, I went off the fucking rails for a couple of years. I don't recommend doing that. You deserve to treat yourself better.
Tomorrow's halloween. Your perfect costume is the micro-managing middle management zombie. You need to let that shit out into the world, 'cos it'll eat you up from the inside if you don't.
posted by scruss at 4:44 PM on October 30, 2019
You're hurting and in deep shock right now. But tomorrow's the first day of you never having to deal with Debbie again. Let that great feeling wash over you. Seek out friends. Don't be alone for a while.
Six years ago, I was you (basically): great job with some despites, then totally blindsided by being let go with no warning. If there's one piece of advice I could have given my younger self is: move on. Don't let the hurt of "why me?" linger. The sole responsibility of an employer is to pay you when you show up. At most, an employee is an overhead. Sure, they probably made sounds with their mouths that you heard like they valued you, but as soon as you stop being a plus in their cash flow, they don't need you. And you need to understand it absolutely isn't personal.
If you consult with an employment lawyer, all they will do is ensure that your employer complied with the law in the settlement (mine didn't, so don't assume that yours did). You will not get a bigger settlement. You will not get revenge, because there's none to take: your particular transaction with that employer is now finished. The most you'll get extra is an adjustment to comply with the law, no more. It's probably worth it, even if it eats into your settlement a little, just to put your mind at rest.
You can try asking for more at the upcoming meeting with HR, but that's very unlikely to happen. The meeting is for them to check the box that they've complied with the law. They might have gone off to consult their lawyer (and if you can, you should too before that meeting). There's almost no chance of getting your job back. Frankly, if they do offer you your job back, run away: they're clueless and toxic.
If they offer you counselling, please understand that outplacement counselling mostly exists as a means of checking up on you to ensure you're not considering revenge. While I found my outplacement useful, the agency was quite blunt about their need to feed back any negative things I said to my former employer to assess a threat level. I do wonder what happened to the 25+ year bank branch manager — bristling and rigid with rage at being betrayed by her employer — who was part of my outplacement group.
Because I held on to the hurt of being let go, because I wasn't kind to myself, I went off the fucking rails for a couple of years. I don't recommend doing that. You deserve to treat yourself better.
Tomorrow's halloween. Your perfect costume is the micro-managing middle management zombie. You need to let that shit out into the world, 'cos it'll eat you up from the inside if you don't.
posted by scruss at 4:44 PM on October 30, 2019
The protection from retaliatory firing is usually related to a complaint involving harassment on illegal grounds such as sexual harassment or discriminatory treatment. Your taking the stance to agree with or disagree with a superior may not have any weight as a protected action from termination. There are good fights and there are no-win situations. You are likely the loser of a no win situation here. I'd cut your losses and ask for a letter of recommendation.
posted by The_imp_inimpossible at 6:12 PM on October 30, 2019
posted by The_imp_inimpossible at 6:12 PM on October 30, 2019
IANAL Contesting an unfair firing takes a *lot* of time and energy. It varies by state. Check the Attorney General's website. It's generally legal for an employer to be an asshole, unless it is related to your age, sex, religion, national origin, handicap status, race, color, veteran status. But, you can file with the appropriate state agency. HR will claim that you are an incompetent dolt, it will feel ugly. But you might get better severance or a settlement. I'd be very surprised if you got your job back. I don't recommend this, it is a difficult process.
Right now, get references. Give HR hell about a potential negative reference from your nemesis. Move on and do great things elsewhere. Not easy, but the best option.
posted by theora55 at 6:52 PM on October 30, 2019
Right now, get references. Give HR hell about a potential negative reference from your nemesis. Move on and do great things elsewhere. Not easy, but the best option.
posted by theora55 at 6:52 PM on October 30, 2019
Hi. I fight unfair employers like it’s my job. A firing is the hardest thing to reverse in the whole toolbox of fucked up shit employers can do, and that’s when there IS a union on the job. No union? They’re not going to reverse course on this, even if they realize they were wrong, because it undermines their authority and incentivizes other people to fight firings, which they don’t want. There is no way to get your job back. Trust me.
I have found the way to “get over this” is to realize that employers are all like this, yes, every one, and that that nothing you could have done would have protected your job in an at will state with no union. This is not your fault, it’s theirs.
posted by corb at 8:15 PM on October 30, 2019
I have found the way to “get over this” is to realize that employers are all like this, yes, every one, and that that nothing you could have done would have protected your job in an at will state with no union. This is not your fault, it’s theirs.
posted by corb at 8:15 PM on October 30, 2019
If you worked for a very large, very bureaucratic firm, even if not unionized, it is generally possible to contest a firing if any of the paperwork isn't 100% on point. I've seen it happen. And within a few months, they were let go again because the underlying issues that led to the original firing were never resolved.
If it is the only thing standing between you and near-homelessness, it might be worth pursuing. Otherwise, you're better off moving on. Sometimes people just don't mesh, sometimes even through no fault of their own, yet they still are the one that has to deal with negative consequences. It isn't fair, but it's how things work in the US.
posted by wierdo at 1:39 AM on October 31, 2019
If it is the only thing standing between you and near-homelessness, it might be worth pursuing. Otherwise, you're better off moving on. Sometimes people just don't mesh, sometimes even through no fault of their own, yet they still are the one that has to deal with negative consequences. It isn't fair, but it's how things work in the US.
posted by wierdo at 1:39 AM on October 31, 2019
Sounds like getting your job back may not be feasible.
My ex was let go of a job that he'd worked at for 14 years. He too loved the company and his co-workers. Unfortunately, a new supervisor was brought in, who for some reason, took a dislike to my ex, which was odd, because he was friendly, upbeat, and got along with everyone.
New supervisor started nitpicking things, and failed to address an issue my ex brought up to him (client needed less product per month, my ex was obliged to keep delivering said product until the paperwork got changed, new supervisor neglected to change paperwork, client finally called and complained, and my ex was hauled to the carpet for trying to get more commission by ignoring client's request to reduce their monthly delivery). Formal warnings were put into place.
This dragged on a few months, and ex was put on suspension at Christmas time, then let go a week later. They even contested his unemployment filing (he won, because it wasn't proven that he'd willfully tried to do something wrong). We went to an attorney that was handling another matter for us, and he sent a strongly worded letter to the company. One thing that was not in my ex's favor is that he was 39, just 3 months shy of his 40th birthday, as we found out later that the company was laying off older workers at a rapid rate. So age discrimination was off the table, tho' it was clear there was some of that going on.
After a few back and forth letters, the company made an offer in the mid-thousands, and required a document to be signed that my ex wouldn't try to sue again. The attorney advised to to take this offer, because it was difficult to prove age discrimination, and we didn't have deep pockets to bring a lawsuit. It was a bitter time for my ex, and he found solace in reaching out to other older employees who'd also been summarily laid off with thin excuses. It was rough for a while, but he eventually found work in another area that suited him.
In my case, a new boss came in, and did not live up to the promises of my former boss, to promote me and give me a new title, as I had taken on a lot of responsibilities above and beyond my original job. They were going to split my job into two, and have me take over 2 areas of responsibility, and the new person the other areas. Instead, he hired 2 other people to take these on, both at very high salaries compared to mine. He then proceeded to criticize my prior accomplishments, and make snide comments, in the guise of joking.
Things came to a head when he brought me into his office, and told me that there was no way I'd ever be promoted, because I didn't have a college degree, and well, look around, these other people all have degrees, and who did I think I was, aiming for a promotion without said degree.
I did go to the Employee Assistance Advocate during this time, and in retrospect, that was the worst thing I could have done. They were not my friend.
I ended up quitting, rather than continue to work in the new environment, which had become very toxic. Thus, I shot myself in the foot, because I couldn't file for unemployment.
You are lucky in the sense that you can file for unemployment. You need to check and see how long your insurance coverage lasts, and then look at alternatives, ACA, or COBRA.
I would not keep talking to people within the company, such as an ombudsman. They might not be allowed to talk to you anymore anyway, if you are no longer an employee. I would instead consult an attorney. They may tell you too bad, so sad, or they may decide to advise you to pursue a better compensation package (not clear if you already signed those papers). Make sure you write everything down, and try to keep it as factual and unemotional as possible.
You may want to look at articles about retaliation. But please consult an actual attorney for concrete advice. Often, the initial consultation is free, or one hour's worth of fees, depending on the attorney.
In a just world, you'd get your job back and Debbie would be fired. But in reality, you may be looking at waiting several months, and a handful of dollars thrown at you (if that), and not returning to your job. Management tends to side with management, unfortunately, no matter how unfair it seems. Best of luck to you.
posted by Marie Mon Dieu at 2:25 AM on October 31, 2019
My ex was let go of a job that he'd worked at for 14 years. He too loved the company and his co-workers. Unfortunately, a new supervisor was brought in, who for some reason, took a dislike to my ex, which was odd, because he was friendly, upbeat, and got along with everyone.
New supervisor started nitpicking things, and failed to address an issue my ex brought up to him (client needed less product per month, my ex was obliged to keep delivering said product until the paperwork got changed, new supervisor neglected to change paperwork, client finally called and complained, and my ex was hauled to the carpet for trying to get more commission by ignoring client's request to reduce their monthly delivery). Formal warnings were put into place.
This dragged on a few months, and ex was put on suspension at Christmas time, then let go a week later. They even contested his unemployment filing (he won, because it wasn't proven that he'd willfully tried to do something wrong). We went to an attorney that was handling another matter for us, and he sent a strongly worded letter to the company. One thing that was not in my ex's favor is that he was 39, just 3 months shy of his 40th birthday, as we found out later that the company was laying off older workers at a rapid rate. So age discrimination was off the table, tho' it was clear there was some of that going on.
After a few back and forth letters, the company made an offer in the mid-thousands, and required a document to be signed that my ex wouldn't try to sue again. The attorney advised to to take this offer, because it was difficult to prove age discrimination, and we didn't have deep pockets to bring a lawsuit. It was a bitter time for my ex, and he found solace in reaching out to other older employees who'd also been summarily laid off with thin excuses. It was rough for a while, but he eventually found work in another area that suited him.
In my case, a new boss came in, and did not live up to the promises of my former boss, to promote me and give me a new title, as I had taken on a lot of responsibilities above and beyond my original job. They were going to split my job into two, and have me take over 2 areas of responsibility, and the new person the other areas. Instead, he hired 2 other people to take these on, both at very high salaries compared to mine. He then proceeded to criticize my prior accomplishments, and make snide comments, in the guise of joking.
Things came to a head when he brought me into his office, and told me that there was no way I'd ever be promoted, because I didn't have a college degree, and well, look around, these other people all have degrees, and who did I think I was, aiming for a promotion without said degree.
I did go to the Employee Assistance Advocate during this time, and in retrospect, that was the worst thing I could have done. They were not my friend.
I ended up quitting, rather than continue to work in the new environment, which had become very toxic. Thus, I shot myself in the foot, because I couldn't file for unemployment.
You are lucky in the sense that you can file for unemployment. You need to check and see how long your insurance coverage lasts, and then look at alternatives, ACA, or COBRA.
I would not keep talking to people within the company, such as an ombudsman. They might not be allowed to talk to you anymore anyway, if you are no longer an employee. I would instead consult an attorney. They may tell you too bad, so sad, or they may decide to advise you to pursue a better compensation package (not clear if you already signed those papers). Make sure you write everything down, and try to keep it as factual and unemotional as possible.
You may want to look at articles about retaliation. But please consult an actual attorney for concrete advice. Often, the initial consultation is free, or one hour's worth of fees, depending on the attorney.
In a just world, you'd get your job back and Debbie would be fired. But in reality, you may be looking at waiting several months, and a handful of dollars thrown at you (if that), and not returning to your job. Management tends to side with management, unfortunately, no matter how unfair it seems. Best of luck to you.
posted by Marie Mon Dieu at 2:25 AM on October 31, 2019
Another note about seniors vs. juniors: as well as low cost, juniors generally have the wonderful qualities of less perceived and actual power. They do what they’re told because they have no idea that there are alternatives. Older employees are a PITA because you have to negotiate with them.
Depending on where the company is in it’s cycle, well, as the Japanese say "The nail that sticks up gets hammered down.” As a senior employee you had been exercising your power and thus, unfortunately, sticking up.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 6:28 AM on October 31, 2019
Depending on where the company is in it’s cycle, well, as the Japanese say "The nail that sticks up gets hammered down.” As a senior employee you had been exercising your power and thus, unfortunately, sticking up.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 6:28 AM on October 31, 2019
My spouse was laid off from his long-time position under circumstances that were...different but same. I mean, the details were different, but it was also a sudden, non-performance-related layoff under "coincidental" timing, possibly influenced by some petty power games, with a puzzling "reorganization" justification that didn't hold water.
We spoke with an employment lawyer to ask about his options, as we had never used a lawyer before and didn't really know how their services typically work for this sort of thing. She talked to him on the phone to get a brief explanation and quickly ascertained that this was likely an unfortunate "unfair is not illegal" situation that didn't appear to meet the criteria for unlawful termination or discrimination. (This conversation did not cost us money.) She explained the scope of what she could and could not do within a consultation (versus actually representing him), and we did decide to do a flat-fee consultation for peace of mind -- she reviewed the severance agreement and related documents for red flags, clarified the legal terminology for him, etc. It was a few hundred dollars.
Anyway, what I really came here to say is this:
1) You are justified in feeling grief and betrayal. If you don't already have a therapist, consider seeing someone for a few weeks to talk this through.
2) Fight the impulse to be ashamed. Tell your colleagues in the field that you were laid off, even if it makes you cringe with embarrassment to say it. Come up with a short, terse explanation of barebones facts (like "I was laid off suddenly, it was not performance related, it was allegedly a reorganization...but some things don't add up and I think this has to do with a consultant they brought on.") But rip the bandaid off and inform people. I PROMISE that their immediate reaction will be that this layoff reflects badly on your employer, not on you.
posted by desuetude at 9:41 AM on October 31, 2019
We spoke with an employment lawyer to ask about his options, as we had never used a lawyer before and didn't really know how their services typically work for this sort of thing. She talked to him on the phone to get a brief explanation and quickly ascertained that this was likely an unfortunate "unfair is not illegal" situation that didn't appear to meet the criteria for unlawful termination or discrimination. (This conversation did not cost us money.) She explained the scope of what she could and could not do within a consultation (versus actually representing him), and we did decide to do a flat-fee consultation for peace of mind -- she reviewed the severance agreement and related documents for red flags, clarified the legal terminology for him, etc. It was a few hundred dollars.
Anyway, what I really came here to say is this:
1) You are justified in feeling grief and betrayal. If you don't already have a therapist, consider seeing someone for a few weeks to talk this through.
2) Fight the impulse to be ashamed. Tell your colleagues in the field that you were laid off, even if it makes you cringe with embarrassment to say it. Come up with a short, terse explanation of barebones facts (like "I was laid off suddenly, it was not performance related, it was allegedly a reorganization...but some things don't add up and I think this has to do with a consultant they brought on.") But rip the bandaid off and inform people. I PROMISE that their immediate reaction will be that this layoff reflects badly on your employer, not on you.
posted by desuetude at 9:41 AM on October 31, 2019
I too am a career nonprofit professional and so is one of my closest friends, who was "laid off" (fired) a couple years ago under what sounds like similar circumstances, although hers had an ugly ageism component as well. Part of the grief and feeling of betrayal is that we nonprofit people tend to think that nonprofits are different than soulless corporations. They're kinder! They care! Spoiler: they aren't different, they're not kinder and they don't care. I have seen some evil evil shit in my years at nonprofits.
So my friend got a new job within two weeks. Her many years at her previous nonprofit had given her an awesome list of contacts and she copied her address book and started calling people and going to lunch. I suggest that this is your best bet and you do the same. I would also suggest that you give up completely on ever getting your job back. It's not happening. If I were you I wouldn't even go to the HR meeting. They're not going to change anything they have said they're giving you, they're just going to try to get you to sign stuff that may well not be to your longterm advantage. You don't need to sign anything and you don't need to ever talk to them again. Everything they need can be done by email.
Update your resume, list a friendly ex coworker as your reference from that job and, well, that's it. Onwards and upwards! Oh and investigate the ACA before you agree to go on COBRA, because it's usually completely insanely expensive and being laid off and unable to afford COBRA is enough reason to get you into Obamacare outside the enrollment window.
posted by mygothlaundry at 1:39 PM on October 31, 2019
So my friend got a new job within two weeks. Her many years at her previous nonprofit had given her an awesome list of contacts and she copied her address book and started calling people and going to lunch. I suggest that this is your best bet and you do the same. I would also suggest that you give up completely on ever getting your job back. It's not happening. If I were you I wouldn't even go to the HR meeting. They're not going to change anything they have said they're giving you, they're just going to try to get you to sign stuff that may well not be to your longterm advantage. You don't need to sign anything and you don't need to ever talk to them again. Everything they need can be done by email.
Update your resume, list a friendly ex coworker as your reference from that job and, well, that's it. Onwards and upwards! Oh and investigate the ACA before you agree to go on COBRA, because it's usually completely insanely expensive and being laid off and unable to afford COBRA is enough reason to get you into Obamacare outside the enrollment window.
posted by mygothlaundry at 1:39 PM on October 31, 2019
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posted by caek at 11:46 AM on October 30, 2019