Inheritance, mortgages, deadline and have no clue!
September 16, 2018 12:00 PM   Subscribe

So my last living parent needs my signature for a mortgage on the parental house, so another house can be bought urgently for older sibling, and gave me one week for this. Family relationships are complicated and I have chosen to have only little contact for the last 10 years. I want to do this carefully since I cannot count on other parties in that regard. What information should I ask for, and what should I consider before signing?

Sibling has no or uncertain work, 50% co-parenting and has to urgently leave the house of her ex-partner (not married, no contracts of any sort apparently) after living separated for more than a year.
I've figured out I don't know if I am co-owner since the death of my parent, and do not know the contents of the will. I signed off the handling of the inheritance to my remaining parent back then with the notary. I assume most if not all of the inheritance of my deceased parent will be used up by my remaining parent and was and am not counting on anything.
The parental house is the biggest (only) asset, mortgage free for years. Parent only mentioned the reason of the mortgage when I asked if it would be important for me to know. I have no idea how big of a loan (or grant/donation) they're thinking of (downpayment or whole house).

I've been purposely kept out of the loop of very important incidents in the past by sibling when I was still in regular contact. So I feel this time I want at least to take care that I get myself informed well by outside advice from notary/legal/tax or other sources. I don't wish to get involved (and they're not asking me) even when they don't choose wisely in my view, but I do want to understand what's happening.
Apparently I would not be liable for any remaining debts, according to my elderly parent. What else do I need to consider? Any ideas on the legal and financial aspects are very welcome, but also things to consider regarding family relations in this matter. Thanks!
posted by Litehouse to Work & Money (35 answers total)
 
It’s not clear to me why you would need to sign anything if you were not going to held liable for the mortgage. Ask to see the paperwork.
posted by samthemander at 12:13 PM on September 16, 2018 [4 favorites]


Don’t sign anything. I’m sorry for your sibling’s crisis but there are lots of ways to live without buying a house.
posted by warriorqueen at 12:16 PM on September 16, 2018 [18 favorites]


I would not sign anything without taking it to my own lawyer.
posted by quince at 12:16 PM on September 16, 2018 [12 favorites]


I am a bit confused. Are you saying that the request for your signature does NOT obligate you in any way as regards paying off that mortgage. Who owns the house now? Is it totally owned by your surviving parent? Why do they want your signature if you are not to be liable for the mortgage they are getting?

Personally, I would not sign anything until I knew the legal remedies.
posted by JayRwv at 12:16 PM on September 16, 2018 [3 favorites]


Don't sign anything. If you're signing a mortgage loan, you most definitely will be responsible for it if payments aren't made.

If your sibling needs a safe place to stay ASAP, you may choose to contribute money to help -- like, rent, or a hotel room, or a million other things. But signing a mortgage loan puts you very much on the hook in a way that may prove disastrous and permanent.
posted by BlahLaLa at 12:17 PM on September 16, 2018 [15 favorites]


You need a copy of the current title on the house, the will of the deceased parent, and a copy of the proposed mortgage, along with any documents submitted to the bank in the application for the mortgage.

You're not doing yourself any favors by intentionally trying to keep yourself in the dark - if they need a signature, it's going to be for something of significant financial consequence.

They could potentially be asking you to do anything from signing away ownership rights on the house to taking out a mortgage against the house (which may be in your name, in which case yes you're still liable).

Providing you with these documents and time to do your due diligence should not be of any issue. If they make a stink, then they don't get your signature.
posted by Karaage at 12:18 PM on September 16, 2018 [23 favorites]


Well, the first thing I don't understand is why you're involved at all. They own the house, which they are going to mortgage in order to raise funds to buy your sibling a house. OK. How exactly does that involve you? It would involve you if you co-owned the house with your parent… but you say you're not sure if you do? You need to figure that one out right away.

Also, if they own the house, why don't they just invite your sibling to come live in it with them? How is buying a house for a person with no income a good idea? Even if they bought it outright (seems unlikely) she'd still need to run it and maintain it and pay taxes on it, none of which is cheap. Where is that money coming from?

Honestly the cleanest thing seems like it would be to just invite your sibling to come live with them and then give her the house in their will. Hopefully by then she'll be able to stand on her own financially.

This whole thing smells like a big ol' mess. You would be foolish to sign anything without a lawyer.
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 12:18 PM on September 16, 2018 [17 favorites]


You're not doing yourself any favors by intentionally trying to keep yourself in the dark - if they need a signature, it's going to be for something of significant financial consequence.

I want to agree with this and emphasize: You can't trust these people, you know you can't trust them, so why are you trying to guess what's going on on the basis of what they say about it? Get everything in writing, read every line of it, and if you have even the slightest bit of question about what you're reading, take it to an attorney. Right now it seems like you're trying to guess and have the internet add to your guessing in a way that isn't really helpful for your decision making. If they're making you feel like you should agree to this before seeing the details, then remember that this kind of behavior is exactly why you don't trust them in the first place, and don't let them pressure you.
posted by Sequence at 12:28 PM on September 16, 2018 [7 favorites]


Here's my guess of what you are trying to say.

You have part ownership of the house your parent lives in, due to the death of your other parent.

Your surving parent wants to take out a loan to buy a house for your sibling. They want to use their home for collateral. Since you are co-owner of the house they need your signature for this.

Is that correct?
posted by bq at 12:31 PM on September 16, 2018 [6 favorites]


Nthing don't sign anything, not without getting your own lawyer to look it over thoroughly. It seems like the easiest thing to do would be for your mom to invite your sibling to live with her in the paid-off house she owns. Is there a reason your sibling has to have a house of her own, especially without a steady job/income? Houses need upkeep, repairs, and taxes paid, and this does cost money.

Is your sibling unstable, violent, addicted, or otherwise very difficult to live with and that is why your mom wants to buy sibling their own house? If so, then you do not want to be financially entangled in that can of worms; tell Mom to help Sibling rent an apartment.
posted by Rosie M. Banks at 12:39 PM on September 16, 2018 [1 favorite]


If I had to guess, here's what's happening:
1. Your sibling wants a new home
2. Your sibling feels that renting a new home is inadequate, and wants to buy a home instead
3. Your sibling lacks money for a down payment
4. Your sibling asked your parent for money
5. Your parent lacks money to give your sibling
6. Your sibling manipulated your parent into accessing equity in your parent's home
7. Your parent attempted to get a home equity loan
8. Your parent could not get a loan, due to low income or low credit score, or your co-ownership of the home
9. Your parent asked you to co-sign a home equity loan, because you have better income or credit, or are a co-owner

Is it possible that your elderly parent is misunderstanding or misrepresenting this situation? If it is true that you "would not be liable for any remaining debts," why is your signature required? In fact, your signature is an agreement to assume liability for monthly payments towards the debt that you and your parent would share. Who would be making these monthly payments? Is it your sibling, who has "no or uncertain work," is it your elderly parent, who presumably does not work, or is it you?

Please listen to the MeFites above who are advising you to sign nothing without getting professional legal advice from a lawyer that you hire. Your lawyer can explain all the reasons this is a bad idea.

But maybe you should reconsider and reject the entire premise of your parent's request. Why can't your sibling just rent a new home? If your sibling needs a new home "urgently," renting is a better solution anyway, as renting is a much faster process.

It sounds like you do want to help your parent and your sibling, if you can. You certainly shouldn't put your signature on anything without spending several hundred dollars getting professional legal advice from a lawyer that you hire. But perhaps you can do something different with that money. Perhaps you should call your parent and say: "I'm sorry, what you propose won't be possible. But if my sibling finds a nice home to rent, I can help with the security deposit."
posted by Sfving at 12:48 PM on September 16, 2018 [8 favorites]


Family relationships are complicated and I have chosen to have only little contact for the last 10 years.

There's a reason you have chosen to reduce contact. If you sign the paperwork it will almost certainly exponentially increase the need for familial contact. All else aside--and taking responsibility for an unreliable sibling's debt is not insignificant!--do you really want to be forced into having that much more contact with your family?
posted by hurdy gurdy girl at 1:19 PM on September 16, 2018 [2 favorites]


I signed off the handling of the inheritance to my remaining parent back then with the notary. I assume most if not all of the inheritance of my deceased parent will be used up by my remaining parent and was and am not counting on anything.

does this mean they were named as executor and you signed the standard thing saying you didn't intend to contest that? not that you actually signed over your own inheritance itself in some way, right? If you were not given a copy of the will, get hold of one now. I think it should be possible to do this without involving your parent; if they have a lawyer, try the lawyer directly. Reading the will is the first step in understanding any of this. If you have received any correspondence from a lawyer but left it unread or unopened, read it now.

Your living parent doesn't have the legal right and may not even have the power to "use up" any funds not willed to them. The labor of settling an estate and the expense of paying what the estate owes along with any necessary legal fees can be enormous; if there is nothing left over to distribute after that's done, it doesn't mean your parent necessarily misappropriated or used anything up. the executor may also be an heir; they are not the estate. an estate is not functionally equivalent to an inheritance. There is no inheritance until the estate's obligations are discharged and a distribution is made. If you're not sure whether this has happened, it's another thing you can find out through official channels.

If there are obstacles placed in your way when you attempt to read the will, don't sign anything. It would probably be best not to sign anything anyway, but absolutely don't sign anything if information is inaccessible. If your relatives try to justify withholding documents because they have been handling all the estate administration headaches on their own, that is not a reason to respect.
posted by queenofbithynia at 1:21 PM on September 16, 2018 [3 favorites]


Response by poster: Sorry if my question was unclear! I am not trying to guess instead of being informed, I am trying to prepare for asking the right questions. Thanks for the insights and realitycheck on the trustissues. All of you who have warned against the dynamic are right. It's new for me to push back. I will get my own lawyer to look at it.
My parent called me late last week, and they sent me no documents. They proposed for me to come sign everything in their city. But I said I wanted to receive documents where I live. Then she let me know the notary would contact me this week. I will contact them myself first thing tomorrow. I have understood notaries are impartial, but I will nevertheless get a second opinion/my own legal advice.
- Parent and sibling live in different cities, so they can't move in. They have to stay close to co-parenting ex-partner as well. And schools etc.
- the part of not being liable is what my parent said her notary told her to say to me. I will have to clear that up.
- Karaage: thank you, that is a clear list of documents I need. And you are right, I need to not be afraid to inform myself this time. And you are right, I need the time with this, they can't hurry me with this. I am sure they are already blaming me.
- BlahLaLa and others: you're right, I hadn't thought it could be the mortgage itself that I would be asked to sign.
posted by Litehouse at 1:24 PM on September 16, 2018 [1 favorite]


People who choose not to communicate adequately about events but then need you to urgently sign something don't sound like they can be trusted. It would be helpful if you could describe what it is you are being asked to sign. It sounds like you are being asked to co-sign a mortgage. That would absolutely make you responsible for paying said mortgage. Red flags abound.
posted by theora55 at 1:25 PM on September 16, 2018 [11 favorites]


You are the only person in this scenario with an income, there is a reason they need your signature. Would you gift your sibling the down payment? Probably not. This is a backdoor way to have you do just that. Your sibling can rent and their partner can pay support, if you choose to help them you can with your eyes open.

And btw -notaries don't know shit about financing houses, the clerks at the UPS store are notaries. That's the strangest thing in this whole saga. Why is your mother taking advice from a notary? You need to talk to the loan officer involved with this, alone.
posted by fshgrl at 1:29 PM on September 16, 2018 [20 favorites]


Lawyer-lawyer-lawyer.

If you're asking for speculation, your mother and sister have settled on 'buy a new house' as a strategy because of income and location issues. If your elderly parent is living off the inheritance and your sister has uncertain or zero work income, finding a rental situation will be difficult.

And I have to think the new house will be paid in full vs. a down payment; a 'reverse' mortgage on your mother's house is one thing, but how would either of them qualify for a brand-new mortgage on the new property? How would ongoing payments be made on that purchase?

Unless your mom is asking you to sign away your rights to the one remaining asset, I can't see how their plan isn't going to put you on the hook for paying something at some point. You write you weren't counting on any part of the inheritance. It's time to consult a lawyer to clarify issues, and to make sure you're completely disentangled from any and all family finances if that's what you want.
posted by Iris Gambol at 1:38 PM on September 16, 2018 [1 favorite]


You've been kept out of the loop and none of this is your responsibility. Say no. They will figure out another way and you will move on with your fabulous life.

They are all adults and can find a way to make it work. There is nothing wrong with renting an apartment. Also, if there's ever any urgency to a situation and someone NEEDS you to do something RIGHT NOW without telling you specifics? The only case that's somewhat permissible is if you are a heart surgeon or healthcare professional of some kind.. and even then.. not advisable without additional info.

DO NOT PUT YOUR FINANCIAL SECURITY IN JEOPARDY OR AT RISK IN ANY WAY.

This is not worth it. Nor is it a life or death situation. Protect yourself.
posted by lunastellasol at 1:40 PM on September 16, 2018 [8 favorites]



the part of not being liable is what my parent said her notary told her to say to me


Is it possible she's saying notary when she means lawyer (or legal assistant assigned to the estate by the law office)? a regular notary wouldn't be calling you or making appointments, you'd have to track them down yourself. The parent sounds like someone who isn't clear on titles in the legal profession and who, even if they fully intend to be honest, won't be able to explain technicalities well because they personally don't understand them.

My memory of being an executor is a few years old now, but I think it is also usual for estate lawyers to have someone in the office (a paralegal or assistant) who's also a notary, so that documents can be signed right there at client appointments. I would expect whoever calls to be that sort of person. Anyone who contacts you from a law office can be asked to send you various documents, and if they aren't personally able to authorize their release and put them in the mail, they can point you on to whoever can. (Which will be a lawyer for your parent, if they have one, not your parent.)

Go ahead and consult a lawyer independently if you can, but you should be able to trust an estate lawyer employed by your parent even if you can't trust your parent. Not for advice or to be on your side, but for basic facts and for documents you're entitled to.
posted by queenofbithynia at 1:41 PM on September 16, 2018 [1 favorite]


Response by poster: Sving: good points! After my parent died I felt guilty for keeping the distance and therefore didn't feel like it was my place to inquire more (about the signing of probably
no contest to remaining parent as executor). Ugh.
I have a steady job with longterm contract (in a rental), parent is pensioned, sibling is not employed or working in their own business but possibly/probably not with much income.
They are not addicted but they are emotionally very turned against me. I shy away from direct contact with them, even though I just heard about their situation now. But I do want to help, provided it does not put me in jeopardy. I am putting my own savings in a second MSc atm so giving money would be hard now, and I feel a longer term solution is needed.
I would think my parent has enough money for a downpayment. My parent is very partial in all sorts of matters, so they could cloud some issues here. I think buying is cheaper than renting, and my sibling has always had high standards.
- I certainly don't want more contact, not now and for this reason, anyway. It will have to be a 'clean' involvement, or I am out.
posted by Litehouse at 1:50 PM on September 16, 2018


Buying is only cheaper than renting if you have the money to buy. Your sibling doesn’t. Neither do a lot of people. Your sibling is mooching off your family to live above their means. If you are okay with this dynamic then proceed. Big not then remove yourself and do not sign.
posted by pintapicasso at 2:02 PM on September 16, 2018 [6 favorites]


You've been at the outskirts; other matters may have drained your parent's coffers over the last ten years, especially with a daughter with kids but little to no money of her own.

And if you and your sister grew up in a house, and your sister is now being asked to leave or is getting evicted from her ex's house, then their default mode of thinking may be, if you have kids, you raise them in a house rather than in an apartment.
posted by Iris Gambol at 2:11 PM on September 16, 2018


Why is your mother taking advice from a notary?

European notaries are quite different from US notaries. I don't know the OP's location, but this could account for the misunderstanding.
posted by JimN2TAW at 2:22 PM on September 16, 2018 [3 favorites]


High standards do not mean that one is entitled to more money. Owning a house is not cheap. Your sister has no income of her own and is not in a position to own a house. You also sound as though you are somewhat scared of her, or at least find her seriously unpleasant. I'm sorry that she's in crisis, but you have no obligation to help her here. She does have the option of moving in with your parent, even though it means her co-parent would be in another city. I know people who have done this, it happens all the time. It would be complicated, but less complicated than owning a house she cannot afford while trying to raise her kids on no income.

She needs to move in with your parent, take the kids if they would be in danger otherwise, and work on getting herself onto more solid financial ground. Then she can move out under her own power, or your parent could give the house to her in their will. She'll need to create a legal co-parenting agreement with her ex, which it sounds like she currently does not have but which she shoud have anyway if they're going to live in different houses, even within the same city. Your parent can help with childcare and supporting your sibling while she finds a job and develops the means to support herself.

None of this need involve you. I can't see why you should be signing anything.
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 2:25 PM on September 16, 2018 [5 favorites]


The document could also be a quit claim in which you give up your ownership of the property. This would not make you liable for debts.
posted by Botanizer at 2:45 PM on September 16, 2018


Is it possible she's saying notary when she means lawyer (or legal assistant assigned to the estate by the law office)? a regular notary wouldn't be calling you or making appointments, you'd have to track them down yourself.

I'm pretty sure this is a reference to a non-U.S. notary, who can have quite a different role. All the more reason the U.S.-centric Mefi will be hard-pressed to give well-informed advice. Please get your own lawyer.
posted by praemunire at 3:30 PM on September 16, 2018 [2 favorites]


My parent called me late last week, and they sent me no documents. They proposed for me to come sign everything in their city.

Nthing what's been said already. Remember the old line - failure on their part to plan ahead does not constitute an emergency on yours. Whether they're doing this intentionally to pressure you into a bad decision is irrelevant. Take your time and do what's best for you as advised by legal professionals being paid by you.
posted by Candleman at 3:34 PM on September 16, 2018 [4 favorites]


seconding Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The . Why isn't this a viable alternative? Doesn't matter if your sibling has high standards if she cannot afford it or can pony up the money herself.

I understand you want to be helpful, but at what cost to you? As they say on airplanes in case of emergency, put your own oxygen mask first. Concern yourself with your finances.
posted by lunastellasol at 4:01 PM on September 16, 2018


I hear what you are saying but think about this: it's not ultimately helpful to your sibling to be paying on a house she can't afford. Buying and keeping a home encompasses more than a mortgage payment. There is maintenance, insurance, potential replacement of systems like plumbing or wiring or any number of expensive things. But, also, being rescued by you is not helpful to anyone. Sounds like you tried to break some unhealthy family patterns, which I commend you for. But they are trying to rope you back in. They may not have malicious intent but it's not a healthy dynamic.
posted by DixieBaby at 4:53 PM on September 16, 2018


Buying is only cheaper than renting if you have the money to buy. Your sibling doesn’t. Neither do a lot of people.

Yes--just to put this in perspective, most things are cheaper if you have a whole wad of cash up front--not just owning versus renting but buying things in bulk, buying tickets way in advance, booking accommodations as early as possible, getting a transportation pass for a whole year instead of on a month-by-month basis.

I usually can't afford to do those things and end up spending more as a result, just like loads of other people do, and it has never crossed my mind to demand money from my family and friends because it would be cheaper in the long run and "I have high standards."

nthing you need all the paperwork, you need to fully understand the situation, and you need a lawyer.
posted by tiger tiger at 1:58 AM on September 17, 2018


Response by poster: Yes, we're in Europe, so a notary's services and position is different here (didn't know that!).
Update by notary today: my parent has already bought a house for my sibling, without considering (or realizing) that I am part-owner of the parental house (1/6, parent 1/2+1/6, sibling also 1/6). I didn't know that until this morning. The notary had to find that out after the fact of buying the house, so it is a new factor for everyone.
The conversation with the notary-in-city-of-parent was informative (thanks to all your advice!), they're sending me all the documents this afternoon. And I am getting legal advice on signing or not, and if I choose to, will be signing with a notary in my city (for logistic reasons).

So the request of my parent is indeed, like some of you gathered, to co-sign a mortgage on my parent's name necessary as part-owner of the hostage/collateral (probably not the right legal terms). Notary explained that parent would be liable for that debt, not me, although I wonder what happens when she dies or when "things go wrong". But the specifics of this I want to consider with my own paid-by-me legal advice. I need to get clear on consequences in the case I of me taking a mortgage of my own in the (near) future.
And I could always consider leaving the whole thing by signing out of the will/inheritance altogether.
The rough estimate is that parental house is mortgage-free, and house bought for sibling is of much lower value (1/4 or 1/5th of value of parental house), leaving my parent enough estate for their future needs (worst case: 4/6-1/4th of the value of the parental house). This is an important consideration for me as I have and want to maintain limited contact but would want parent to be taken care of.
posted by Litehouse at 4:46 AM on September 17, 2018 [4 favorites]


Notary explained that parent would be liable for that debt, not me, although I wonder what happens when she dies or when "things go wrong".

You lose your interest in the house, at least in scenario #2. Unless you are independently wealthy, I wouldn't be so cavalier about this.
posted by praemunire at 8:46 AM on September 17, 2018 [7 favorites]


I would absolutely not sign this. Your sibling is not more important than you. I don't know what kind of messed up family dynamics exist, but I want to reinforce this.
posted by corb at 11:19 AM on September 17, 2018 [5 favorites]


My advice is Do Not Sign this. If you were in no way liable, then you wouldn't be asked to sign. Of course you have potential liability for a loan you are signing on.

They should not have done this without talking to you first. I'm really sorry this is happening: I know this is going to get even more uncomfortable than it already is. You may need advice from not just a lawyer, but also a therapist! You're being put in a very tough position. Your instinct may be to just back out of your own future inheritance, but is that just, that your sibling should get a house and you, nothing?
posted by latkes at 5:35 PM on September 17, 2018 [5 favorites]


Response by poster: Thanks for your concern everybody. There is a huge history, but things have turned out surprisingly uncomplicated.
Btw notaries where I live are indeed very qualified (masters, 3 years postmaster education, 6 years work-experience before sworn in), and they are obligated to inform before asking a party to sign anything.
And if I appeared cavalier; I was trying to joke to relieve some stress about how little knowledge I have. It took a lot of calls, emails, and some stress, but I figured it out (and I hope the following part is clear because language + no legal knowledge or experience):

Paid-by-me legal advisor has concluded that, like the notary said, I will not be signing as a debtor/obligor (this is the essential legal difference). My living parent will be liable for the debt, all mortgage will be paid by them. If not, parental house will be sold but only the part that is owned by living parent can be used for the debt by the bank. The parts that deceased parent willed to sibling and me are not owned by living parent and therefore not collateral for this mortgage. When parent sells the parental house, we again will have to co-sign for this and will officially inherit the parts we own. When parent passes, mortgage will bought off/ended from the part last living parent owns, separate from the parts that were already left to sibling by our first deceased parent because that cannot ever change after that was willed back then.

Thing is, deceased parent had a will drawn up where living parent would not inherit everything. This is the main thing. None of us knew/realized. So parent and sibling both hadn't realized they needed my (and my siblings) signature for this. Notary discovered this.
Next thing to figure out is if I have been owing taxes over this part-ownership, but that's something my very qualified tax consultant will figure out and I'll cross that bridge when I get there.
This could have easily been another horrible situation, but for some reason it turned out ok. It's a big relief. Thanks for your support and critical thinking, which has helped me acquire the right advice.
posted by Litehouse at 11:10 AM on September 19, 2018 [6 favorites]


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