Why am I invisible to men?
May 20, 2018 1:52 PM Subscribe
I'm a woman in my late 20s. My entire life, I've never made it onto men's radars as a romantic option unless I've assertively positioned myself there. Even in online dating where women are supposedly flooded with male attention and interest, I sent out more messages than I received, and most of them went unanswered. What's wrong with me? Am I simply too ugly? Not womanly or desirable enough?
Before anybody asks the obvious questions:
- No, I'm not overweight. I'm 5'5" and slim, and I work out several times a week.
- I have long hair, wear makeup, and prefer colorful, feminine clothing. I take pride in my grooming and always try to make the most of what I have.
- I have a lot of friends and I'm generally well-liked by coworkers, so I don't think I have any repellent personality defects.
It's just depressing to compare notes with my women friends and realize my dating and relationship experiences are so unlike theirs. I'm usually the one to make the first move with a new partner, whether that's asking him out or initiating sex, and judging by what other women and men alike have told me this is pretty atypical. I have a fairly balanced 50/50 ratio of male to female friends, and I've never -- not once -- encountered the "problem" of any of my male friends falling for me like so many other women report. While I'm occasionally catcalled by junkies or homeless people, I am rarely complimented even by the men I've dated (and even then that was usually only after I complimented them first). I am never approached or flirted with. It's like I don't even register as a woman to men unless I flag them down.
Usually when women complain about men not approaching them, the standard response is, "Well, have you tried approaching any men?" Yes. Frequently. As I said before, I've been the initiator in most of my relationships. Especially in my early twenties, this strategy worked very well for me. Men were more than happy to reciprocate my interest ... to a point. They would sleep with me because they knew I was available and attracted, and then discard me as soon as whoever they really wanted came along. I've since gone through long stretches where I was unable to find even a casual sex partner, which according to the Internet means I must be a unicorn.
I'm beginning to think it must just be my looks. For years I thought I was reasonably attractive, if not the prettiest woman in any given room, but being constantly overlooked has forced me to rethink that theory. I'm slender, so I have that going for me, but I'm almost totally flat-chested and have no ass. Facially, I don't think I'm very pretty, either. I have small eyes and terrible bone structure, with a weak jaw and no cheekbones. My face looks fat even though I'm a healthy weight, and I have a visible overbite. I used to see myself as having a sort of unique, quirky beauty, but not anymore. Now I feel ugly all the time.
This issue aside, I like myself. I have an interesting job and a lot of creative hobbies, I'm a compassionate friend with a big social circle, and I'm frequently told I'm funny and smart. I have my share of problems like anyone else, but I don't go through life with a big "woe is me" chip on my shoulder. But these experiences have totally crushed my self-esteem where my looks and sex appeal are concerned. It's so hurtful to be this age and feel like I have zero prospects.
Has anybody else had similar experiences? How did you fix it?
Before anybody asks the obvious questions:
- No, I'm not overweight. I'm 5'5" and slim, and I work out several times a week.
- I have long hair, wear makeup, and prefer colorful, feminine clothing. I take pride in my grooming and always try to make the most of what I have.
- I have a lot of friends and I'm generally well-liked by coworkers, so I don't think I have any repellent personality defects.
It's just depressing to compare notes with my women friends and realize my dating and relationship experiences are so unlike theirs. I'm usually the one to make the first move with a new partner, whether that's asking him out or initiating sex, and judging by what other women and men alike have told me this is pretty atypical. I have a fairly balanced 50/50 ratio of male to female friends, and I've never -- not once -- encountered the "problem" of any of my male friends falling for me like so many other women report. While I'm occasionally catcalled by junkies or homeless people, I am rarely complimented even by the men I've dated (and even then that was usually only after I complimented them first). I am never approached or flirted with. It's like I don't even register as a woman to men unless I flag them down.
Usually when women complain about men not approaching them, the standard response is, "Well, have you tried approaching any men?" Yes. Frequently. As I said before, I've been the initiator in most of my relationships. Especially in my early twenties, this strategy worked very well for me. Men were more than happy to reciprocate my interest ... to a point. They would sleep with me because they knew I was available and attracted, and then discard me as soon as whoever they really wanted came along. I've since gone through long stretches where I was unable to find even a casual sex partner, which according to the Internet means I must be a unicorn.
I'm beginning to think it must just be my looks. For years I thought I was reasonably attractive, if not the prettiest woman in any given room, but being constantly overlooked has forced me to rethink that theory. I'm slender, so I have that going for me, but I'm almost totally flat-chested and have no ass. Facially, I don't think I'm very pretty, either. I have small eyes and terrible bone structure, with a weak jaw and no cheekbones. My face looks fat even though I'm a healthy weight, and I have a visible overbite. I used to see myself as having a sort of unique, quirky beauty, but not anymore. Now I feel ugly all the time.
This issue aside, I like myself. I have an interesting job and a lot of creative hobbies, I'm a compassionate friend with a big social circle, and I'm frequently told I'm funny and smart. I have my share of problems like anyone else, but I don't go through life with a big "woe is me" chip on my shoulder. But these experiences have totally crushed my self-esteem where my looks and sex appeal are concerned. It's so hurtful to be this age and feel like I have zero prospects.
Has anybody else had similar experiences? How did you fix it?
Also I know a LOT of people who are (a) not at all conventionally attractive and (b) in happy, loving relationships. So don’t let yourself agonize over your appearance.
posted by schroedingersgirl at 2:06 PM on May 20, 2018 [16 favorites]
posted by schroedingersgirl at 2:06 PM on May 20, 2018 [16 favorites]
It's possible you give off a vibe some dudes find confusing or intimidating...like you're very smart, or sure of yourself. And then the question is, do you want the attention of dudes who can't deal with those things?
You might also look at your friend group. How picky are your friends? Do all their relationships work out or do a fair number seem to be over quickly or just hookups? Are some of them regrettable or even disasters?
What are you looking for...just hookups or more? What kind of man do you want to spend time with? Are those the kind of men you're meeting?
Before you decide that you are unlovable, look at your dating life in context. Maybe the men around you are not your type and you need to find those that are.
posted by emjaybee at 2:17 PM on May 20, 2018 [22 favorites]
You might also look at your friend group. How picky are your friends? Do all their relationships work out or do a fair number seem to be over quickly or just hookups? Are some of them regrettable or even disasters?
What are you looking for...just hookups or more? What kind of man do you want to spend time with? Are those the kind of men you're meeting?
Before you decide that you are unlovable, look at your dating life in context. Maybe the men around you are not your type and you need to find those that are.
posted by emjaybee at 2:17 PM on May 20, 2018 [22 favorites]
I seriously doubt this has anything to do with ugliness. I really really doubt it.
The green has done some pretty helpful (I think) critiques of online dating profiles if you want to see what the folks here have to suggest.
In my experience what you are describing is not unusual especially if you are a cerebral person. [Edit: I am a very serious, cerebral person with an intimidating vocabulary; men are generally Not Into It.]
posted by fingersandtoes at 2:19 PM on May 20, 2018 [42 favorites]
The green has done some pretty helpful (I think) critiques of online dating profiles if you want to see what the folks here have to suggest.
In my experience what you are describing is not unusual especially if you are a cerebral person. [Edit: I am a very serious, cerebral person with an intimidating vocabulary; men are generally Not Into It.]
posted by fingersandtoes at 2:19 PM on May 20, 2018 [42 favorites]
I'm a woman with very similar experiences with men. I almost always send the first message, which is almost always ignored. The few men that I've gone out with have always rejected me. I started online dating at 18 and am now 23. I've researched online dating and tried all kinds of advice: making my profile shorter, being more specific to show more personality, developing more of a sense of humor...nothing has helped. I hope it softens the blow to know that you're not the only woman who struggles to be noticed by men.
I'm much less conventionally attractive than you are, am unable to work, and even my attempts to make friends haven't worked out, but even I still have some hope that I can eventually find a partner.
If I had access to a social circle like you do, I might ask them to help me meet new people or throw get togethers where everybody could bring other people. Could you join a group related to any of your creative hobbies? Some people here have recommend to others to go to Metafilter meetups.
I hope you find someone who appreciates you.
posted by Social Science Nerd at 2:25 PM on May 20, 2018 [5 favorites]
I'm much less conventionally attractive than you are, am unable to work, and even my attempts to make friends haven't worked out, but even I still have some hope that I can eventually find a partner.
If I had access to a social circle like you do, I might ask them to help me meet new people or throw get togethers where everybody could bring other people. Could you join a group related to any of your creative hobbies? Some people here have recommend to others to go to Metafilter meetups.
I hope you find someone who appreciates you.
posted by Social Science Nerd at 2:25 PM on May 20, 2018 [5 favorites]
This isn't about a character defect or a problem that originates in you that men spot and dislike. Instead it's something about these men, some other quality or set of qualities, that predisposes them to treat you this way. That is entirely on them.
I have similar experiences. It wasn't me. Many men are trained to treat women as disposable objects or supporting characters. I can't change that. But I had control over some part of it: for some reason I choose to date these men. That is something I've been tangling with in and out of therapy for quite awhile. I have really worked hard on my selection process. Like you, I always make the first move. But my skills at spotting bullshit have only sharpened as I've honed my ability by doing work on myself and asking myself tough questions about the person I'm dating or sleeping with etc.
So I guess that is what I think might be useful for you to think about and work on, just based on my own experience. This is not you and it is not your fault but you can also punt these dudes to the curb the moment you smell bullshit.
Take care.
posted by sockermom at 2:30 PM on May 20, 2018 [14 favorites]
I have similar experiences. It wasn't me. Many men are trained to treat women as disposable objects or supporting characters. I can't change that. But I had control over some part of it: for some reason I choose to date these men. That is something I've been tangling with in and out of therapy for quite awhile. I have really worked hard on my selection process. Like you, I always make the first move. But my skills at spotting bullshit have only sharpened as I've honed my ability by doing work on myself and asking myself tough questions about the person I'm dating or sleeping with etc.
So I guess that is what I think might be useful for you to think about and work on, just based on my own experience. This is not you and it is not your fault but you can also punt these dudes to the curb the moment you smell bullshit.
Take care.
posted by sockermom at 2:30 PM on May 20, 2018 [14 favorites]
I feel like, and I don't really know, but it seems like when you're on a dating site that people can be awfully superficial and shallow about who they want to message or give some time to. And if you are a smart, cerebral person who is not in that "conventional" looks and attitude bucket, it will just be harder for you. It takes one of those more cerebral persons being more purposeful and broad in their search and assumptions to find you and make a go of it.
I've had more experience with men in my peer group on the dating sites and for at least one guy who asked for my opinion, I said, "Hey, you need to stop trying to match with these conventional girls - they will not be into you." Which, hey, that's shallow on my part, too, but he was having a string of go-nowhere dates where you could tell that she felt he was wasting her time. He went back to it with a new approach and found the love of his life. They married and quickly had kids. She was definitely outside the bounds of your popular media feminine norms (and is a very interesting person).
One thing that he did and I recall from long ago that this was a matchmaking tip, was look for compatible religious beliefs and compatible family desires (he wanted kids for sure). I think you might add basic politics to that but those things seem to me to be really the bedrock of compatibility. All that other stuff: hobbies, books read, places travelled, dogs vs cats, seem important but having some differences is the spice of life. However, figuring out what are the foundations of your person and how that matches with the important foundations of another person and then making that your starting (and perhaps only) point for reaching out could really work.
I second getting your friend circle to help make introductions. Then you're both "vouched" for and that can be helpful. Really tune in to your gut. You clearly need an intellectual spark with someone. What gets your brain going? Be forward with men that you are really interested in that also seem interested in you. If you sense them looking over your shoulder for something better, say, "Hey, I'm interested in you...what's your story? I suspect you might not be as interested." And for anything other than an enthusiastic affirmation of how awesome you are (and an apology for seeming distracted and distant), you'll need to let them go so you can be free to find someone more into you.
So, yeah, patience and knowing yourself will eventually, I'm sure of it, find you a partner who is your intellectual match who also gets you going and is delighted to be with every part of you. I do feel like so many men just see themselves with the blonde cheerleader and it's hard for them to wake up to the fact that there's only a small group of blonde, single, cheerleaders out there and even fewer of them who aren't looking for a blonde, buff, football guy to marry. Heh.
posted by amanda at 3:03 PM on May 20, 2018 [14 favorites]
I've had more experience with men in my peer group on the dating sites and for at least one guy who asked for my opinion, I said, "Hey, you need to stop trying to match with these conventional girls - they will not be into you." Which, hey, that's shallow on my part, too, but he was having a string of go-nowhere dates where you could tell that she felt he was wasting her time. He went back to it with a new approach and found the love of his life. They married and quickly had kids. She was definitely outside the bounds of your popular media feminine norms (and is a very interesting person).
One thing that he did and I recall from long ago that this was a matchmaking tip, was look for compatible religious beliefs and compatible family desires (he wanted kids for sure). I think you might add basic politics to that but those things seem to me to be really the bedrock of compatibility. All that other stuff: hobbies, books read, places travelled, dogs vs cats, seem important but having some differences is the spice of life. However, figuring out what are the foundations of your person and how that matches with the important foundations of another person and then making that your starting (and perhaps only) point for reaching out could really work.
I second getting your friend circle to help make introductions. Then you're both "vouched" for and that can be helpful. Really tune in to your gut. You clearly need an intellectual spark with someone. What gets your brain going? Be forward with men that you are really interested in that also seem interested in you. If you sense them looking over your shoulder for something better, say, "Hey, I'm interested in you...what's your story? I suspect you might not be as interested." And for anything other than an enthusiastic affirmation of how awesome you are (and an apology for seeming distracted and distant), you'll need to let them go so you can be free to find someone more into you.
So, yeah, patience and knowing yourself will eventually, I'm sure of it, find you a partner who is your intellectual match who also gets you going and is delighted to be with every part of you. I do feel like so many men just see themselves with the blonde cheerleader and it's hard for them to wake up to the fact that there's only a small group of blonde, single, cheerleaders out there and even fewer of them who aren't looking for a blonde, buff, football guy to marry. Heh.
posted by amanda at 3:03 PM on May 20, 2018 [14 favorites]
oh, by the way:
if your situation is similar to mine, where you're basically off-putting to men because you project seriousness, intellectual heft, and no interest in ego-stroking...
it winds up being an -enormous- gift in the long run. In my case, guys who weren't interested in funny or talky or forceful women always ran the other way, and I never dated much. But all it takes is one, and the guy I'm married to thinks I am hilarious and clever and awesome and beautiful.
posted by fingersandtoes at 3:10 PM on May 20, 2018 [104 favorites]
if your situation is similar to mine, where you're basically off-putting to men because you project seriousness, intellectual heft, and no interest in ego-stroking...
it winds up being an -enormous- gift in the long run. In my case, guys who weren't interested in funny or talky or forceful women always ran the other way, and I never dated much. But all it takes is one, and the guy I'm married to thinks I am hilarious and clever and awesome and beautiful.
posted by fingersandtoes at 3:10 PM on May 20, 2018 [104 favorites]
Oh hi, I also have had precisely the same experience / feelings! You are not alone. Here are a few thoughts:
1. The total cumulative lifetime # of men is not what matters. What really matters is finding one person who is astonishingly great and who also thinks you're great. It can really hurt when that one person you really like does not even have you on their radar, but that's just the vagary of attraction, not an indictment on your womanliness or ability to person. There are some factors you can control, but finding that one person is usually not something you can predict.
2. These ideas that "all women" get catcalled / leered at at the gym / "hey babe" messages are well-intentioned but damaging lies. Like, I don't get any of those -- so what are you saying about me? And echoing what fingersandtoes says above -- I suspect that my non-white no-makeup face shot on dating profiles didn't even register me as a recognizable mark to a lot of guys, sparing me a lot of "hey babe" messages, and likewise, the leering / catcalling. Whatever; being a "mark" to many doesn't get me towards my one.
posted by batter_my_heart at 3:16 PM on May 20, 2018 [10 favorites]
1. The total cumulative lifetime # of men is not what matters. What really matters is finding one person who is astonishingly great and who also thinks you're great. It can really hurt when that one person you really like does not even have you on their radar, but that's just the vagary of attraction, not an indictment on your womanliness or ability to person. There are some factors you can control, but finding that one person is usually not something you can predict.
2. These ideas that "all women" get catcalled / leered at at the gym / "hey babe" messages are well-intentioned but damaging lies. Like, I don't get any of those -- so what are you saying about me? And echoing what fingersandtoes says above -- I suspect that my non-white no-makeup face shot on dating profiles didn't even register me as a recognizable mark to a lot of guys, sparing me a lot of "hey babe" messages, and likewise, the leering / catcalling. Whatever; being a "mark" to many doesn't get me towards my one.
posted by batter_my_heart at 3:16 PM on May 20, 2018 [10 favorites]
I don't feel like I can give you a real answer to your question, but I can say this with some certainty: whatever it is, it's not your looks. How can I be so sure? Observation.
I've known women who look all kinds of different ways—short, tall, fat, thin, light, dark, flat, curvy, every way that it's possible for a woman to look—and who receive attention from men. (Setting aside for the moment the fact that not all male attention is good or wanted.) Looks alone don't seem to actually matter all that much, at least not to the extent of making someone invisible. So I don't know what's going on here, but it's not how you look.
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 3:19 PM on May 20, 2018 [8 favorites]
I've known women who look all kinds of different ways—short, tall, fat, thin, light, dark, flat, curvy, every way that it's possible for a woman to look—and who receive attention from men. (Setting aside for the moment the fact that not all male attention is good or wanted.) Looks alone don't seem to actually matter all that much, at least not to the extent of making someone invisible. So I don't know what's going on here, but it's not how you look.
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 3:19 PM on May 20, 2018 [8 favorites]
Prior to meeting my husband via online dating at age 30, I had the same problem. I always felt invisible to men in my daily life. It sucks, especially when I was interested in some of those men and the feeling was never reciprocated.
Physical attractiveness is probably not the issue here. I would guess you just haven't met the right guy in the right situation. My husband is like me in a lot of ways. I've often thought that if I'd met him offline originally and not in the context of online dating, we probably never would've connected at all.
I don't have any specific advice for you, and I can only go by the description of yourself you've given here, but it doesn't sound like there is a problem with you here. It can be hard to meet the right person without there being a problem with you, or something you need to fix about yourself.
posted by wondermouse at 3:20 PM on May 20, 2018 [2 favorites]
Physical attractiveness is probably not the issue here. I would guess you just haven't met the right guy in the right situation. My husband is like me in a lot of ways. I've often thought that if I'd met him offline originally and not in the context of online dating, we probably never would've connected at all.
I don't have any specific advice for you, and I can only go by the description of yourself you've given here, but it doesn't sound like there is a problem with you here. It can be hard to meet the right person without there being a problem with you, or something you need to fix about yourself.
posted by wondermouse at 3:20 PM on May 20, 2018 [2 favorites]
I relate to this. At some point I decided to focus on seeking men who were kind. I’ve essentially only had two serious relationships in my life (I’m nearing 40) but I think selecting for kindness has made them lasting ones, which means attracting people isn’t something I have to worry about much at all.
Sometimes I feel like I’ve missed out on a good chunk of The Female Experience (TM), to the point of mild gender dysphoria (autocorrect suggests dyspepsia; maybe that’s better). But my utterly gorgeous bestie has lived a life of copious attention from terrible men and you know what, I do not think I would trade.
posted by eirias at 3:24 PM on May 20, 2018 [5 favorites]
Sometimes I feel like I’ve missed out on a good chunk of The Female Experience (TM), to the point of mild gender dysphoria (autocorrect suggests dyspepsia; maybe that’s better). But my utterly gorgeous bestie has lived a life of copious attention from terrible men and you know what, I do not think I would trade.
posted by eirias at 3:24 PM on May 20, 2018 [5 favorites]
A long time ago, my best friend and I started a dating club. We'd meet every Friday at a specific café and all singles were welcome. It was a huge success. We had deliberately chosen a less popular café, and we literally made it popular. All of the friends who came met someone, even my 60-year old aunt. All except me and my friend. Like you, we had only ever experienced being the ones who took the initiative, and often enough that had been used against us both in our relationships. (As in "I didn't really want to date you but you forced me". As an oldish lady looking back this is the most ridiculous statement I've ever heard, but back then I was young and vulnerable). Both my friend and I ended up going out with extremely problematic men who had figured out that everyone else was too scared of us to date us. Not because we were ugly or stupid or somehow wrong, but because we were too amazing and magical and most men thought they had no chance.
Neither my bestie or me are beautiful like models or princesses, but in hindsight, I think we projected an energy and general happiness that was attractive, but everyone imagined they weren't perfect enough for us. It was all in their heads: they liked us, but imagined we were something much more special that we actually were. The guys we had found attractive all came out out of the woodworks when we started dating literal junkies and they realized we really weren't that judgmental, but by then we were both insecure and worried, and in my case pregnant.
Sorry, that was a long anecdote. But I'm trying to say that it isn't so much about you as about them. From what you describe, you are a wonderful person, fun, and kind and smart. I suspect you are beautiful. You are also clearly strong. The reason you are not harassed is that those men who enjoy humiliating women avoid strong women and that is a wonderful thing. You need to meet people who aren't afraid of someone like you. And those men exist. Maybe they are already near you, and you don't see it. As a strong woman, you may not notice that men are approaching you. I have a very, very long list of people whom I now know were interested in dating me, but gave up because they felt I pushed them away. From my 20 year older mentor to my 10 year younger mentee. I didn't realize it then because I was expecting a traditional courtship based on the man being forward and aggressive, while on the other hand detesting anyone who'd act aggressive.
The men I unconsciously pushed away were absolutely there and engaging and inviting me out, but I didn't get the clues because I didn't get how attractive I was to them. I thought they were just friendly and polite and thought they didn't care for me. I let my own lack of self-esteem get in the way of my self-care.
To be more practical, I'd suggest that you ask one of your male friends about this, rather than people on the internet. I wish I'd done this when I was even younger than you. I was a math major, and had many close male friends, and I've later learnt that they could all have given me the best advice including setting me up for dates with great people.
posted by mumimor at 3:35 PM on May 20, 2018 [30 favorites]
Neither my bestie or me are beautiful like models or princesses, but in hindsight, I think we projected an energy and general happiness that was attractive, but everyone imagined they weren't perfect enough for us. It was all in their heads: they liked us, but imagined we were something much more special that we actually were. The guys we had found attractive all came out out of the woodworks when we started dating literal junkies and they realized we really weren't that judgmental, but by then we were both insecure and worried, and in my case pregnant.
Sorry, that was a long anecdote. But I'm trying to say that it isn't so much about you as about them. From what you describe, you are a wonderful person, fun, and kind and smart. I suspect you are beautiful. You are also clearly strong. The reason you are not harassed is that those men who enjoy humiliating women avoid strong women and that is a wonderful thing. You need to meet people who aren't afraid of someone like you. And those men exist. Maybe they are already near you, and you don't see it. As a strong woman, you may not notice that men are approaching you. I have a very, very long list of people whom I now know were interested in dating me, but gave up because they felt I pushed them away. From my 20 year older mentor to my 10 year younger mentee. I didn't realize it then because I was expecting a traditional courtship based on the man being forward and aggressive, while on the other hand detesting anyone who'd act aggressive.
The men I unconsciously pushed away were absolutely there and engaging and inviting me out, but I didn't get the clues because I didn't get how attractive I was to them. I thought they were just friendly and polite and thought they didn't care for me. I let my own lack of self-esteem get in the way of my self-care.
To be more practical, I'd suggest that you ask one of your male friends about this, rather than people on the internet. I wish I'd done this when I was even younger than you. I was a math major, and had many close male friends, and I've later learnt that they could all have given me the best advice including setting me up for dates with great people.
posted by mumimor at 3:35 PM on May 20, 2018 [30 favorites]
One of the prettiest women I've known had to deal with so much unpleasant, sometimes scary male harassment that I have privately suspected it may have been a factor in her becoming a lesbian. Also, I know several grown men who drool and fall over conventionally attractive women like they're still teenage boys, and trust me, not being on the radar of guys like these is a blessing. Having encountered a few of these, they're always looking for the next new pretty thing. This may be related to your complaint that some men will date you a while and then leave for what they perceive as "someone better" -- it just happens that there are a lot of disloyal, shallow people in the dating world. That's why there are so many novels, songs, works of art, etc about true love: because it's rare and, often, elusive.
posted by MeFiMouse at 3:43 PM on May 20, 2018 [4 favorites]
posted by MeFiMouse at 3:43 PM on May 20, 2018 [4 favorites]
Another partial answer to your question: there's nothing stopping you from just continuing to take the initiative. I mean, that's what most men do most of the time, and we manage. Don't take the initiative with just any guys though—try to get a sense of what characteristics you want in a partner (I strongly agree with eirias that "kindness" should be right at the top of the list) and only ask out dudes who seem like they might actually meet them. Unless you just want to bang, in which case maybe you can relax those criteria while avoiding opening yourself emotionally.
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 3:44 PM on May 20, 2018
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 3:44 PM on May 20, 2018
It's possible you give off a vibe some dudes find confusing or intimidating...like you're very smart, or sure of yourself.
Seconding. I have been told, directly and indirectly, that my personality is too strong. In which case: find different men, who do not require you to fold yourself away. They exist, I promise.
posted by kalimac at 3:45 PM on May 20, 2018 [13 favorites]
Seconding. I have been told, directly and indirectly, that my personality is too strong. In which case: find different men, who do not require you to fold yourself away. They exist, I promise.
posted by kalimac at 3:45 PM on May 20, 2018 [13 favorites]
Look at IMDB some time. The most stunningly beautiful people in the world, and each with three, four, five or more ex-spouses. Miserable, anxiety-filled relationships. Seems the more choice they have, the more they choose to exercise it.
I'm also reminded of an unusually introspective line from 'MASH'; Hawkeye told Margaret, "When it comes to romance, you and I are two bespoke people in an off-the-rack world." Or something like that. Many people who are easily paired can do so because they have personalities like Lego bricks (snap together) or Play-doh (mold to others). Your post suggests you are neither. Good for you.
Quoting another dumb TV show, Dr. House said, "You don't get what you deserve, you get what you get." In other words, don't succumb to the just-world fallacy. You can do everything right and still be unsuccessful. So don't gnaw off your fingertips over it.
Alas it hurts me deeply as a man to admit this, but, no matter how awesome you are, men who want kids will skew towards younger women; it makes reproductive sense. Think of it as the male equivalent of the female 'Must earn more than me and be ready to buy a house' veto.
And another sad fact - while I adore smart women, I now avoid therm because if they don't perceive me as dominating them intellectually, they get bored, resentful and on the next bus out of my life (and yes I am smarter than the average bear, but don't tell Ranger Smith.)
But hey, what do I know? I've been invisible for decades... but I'm feeling much better now.
posted by zaixfeep at 4:08 PM on May 20, 2018 [6 favorites]
I'm also reminded of an unusually introspective line from 'MASH'; Hawkeye told Margaret, "When it comes to romance, you and I are two bespoke people in an off-the-rack world." Or something like that. Many people who are easily paired can do so because they have personalities like Lego bricks (snap together) or Play-doh (mold to others). Your post suggests you are neither. Good for you.
Quoting another dumb TV show, Dr. House said, "You don't get what you deserve, you get what you get." In other words, don't succumb to the just-world fallacy. You can do everything right and still be unsuccessful. So don't gnaw off your fingertips over it.
Alas it hurts me deeply as a man to admit this, but, no matter how awesome you are, men who want kids will skew towards younger women; it makes reproductive sense. Think of it as the male equivalent of the female 'Must earn more than me and be ready to buy a house' veto.
And another sad fact - while I adore smart women, I now avoid therm because if they don't perceive me as dominating them intellectually, they get bored, resentful and on the next bus out of my life (and yes I am smarter than the average bear, but don't tell Ranger Smith.)
But hey, what do I know? I've been invisible for decades... but I'm feeling much better now.
posted by zaixfeep at 4:08 PM on May 20, 2018 [6 favorites]
I've had the same experiences as you and never did find a love relationship: I'm in my fifties. I'm reasonably attractive and I had a few short-term bed partnerdudes in my twenties and thirties. (Ho-hum, AND attractiveness is fairly orthogonal to bed partner acquisition.) In the end I'm likely not the partnering type. Throwing that deadbolt on my front door and picking up a book is my idea of a good time, especially now that I'm older.
What I'd like to convey to you is that I realize now that I wasted half a lifetime of time and energy trying to keep myself "acceptably" small, attractive, seeming "available", cultivating how "interesting" I was, going to places I might find partners, paying for online dating memberships... and it was all for naught, except to make me realize that struggling availed me nothing. I would have been better off doing nothing at all to find a cismale partner: it was a huge drain on my resources and made me feel worse about myself.
My wish for you is that you spend as little time and energy as possible trying to find a cismale partner (or even thinking about it). You're young and you have a lot going for you. Forget about finding a cismale partner as much as you can, and take advantage of your many gifts. Life is short.
One note: Partners other than cismales? If that sounds like it might appeal to you, give it a try, with the obvious caveat that if you feel like you're pushing yourself into it, don't do it.
On looks: "conventionally" pretty women probably do get a greater volume of attention, but a lot of it is the type of attention you won't want. And I'm sure your looks are more than acceptable. You probably don't come across as "compliant" or "nurturing" or "inoffensive" enough. Good for you.
posted by Sheydem-tants at 4:15 PM on May 20, 2018 [9 favorites]
What I'd like to convey to you is that I realize now that I wasted half a lifetime of time and energy trying to keep myself "acceptably" small, attractive, seeming "available", cultivating how "interesting" I was, going to places I might find partners, paying for online dating memberships... and it was all for naught, except to make me realize that struggling availed me nothing. I would have been better off doing nothing at all to find a cismale partner: it was a huge drain on my resources and made me feel worse about myself.
My wish for you is that you spend as little time and energy as possible trying to find a cismale partner (or even thinking about it). You're young and you have a lot going for you. Forget about finding a cismale partner as much as you can, and take advantage of your many gifts. Life is short.
One note: Partners other than cismales? If that sounds like it might appeal to you, give it a try, with the obvious caveat that if you feel like you're pushing yourself into it, don't do it.
On looks: "conventionally" pretty women probably do get a greater volume of attention, but a lot of it is the type of attention you won't want. And I'm sure your looks are more than acceptable. You probably don't come across as "compliant" or "nurturing" or "inoffensive" enough. Good for you.
posted by Sheydem-tants at 4:15 PM on May 20, 2018 [9 favorites]
There is something else, because I am old, and a professor who loves her students and follows them over time:
conventional beauty has absolutely nothing to do with attraction or love. I've had hundreds of students of all forms and shapes and races and religions, and their relationship history has never been correlated with how they resembled the current style. Don't ever think that your body may be wrong. You are beautiful. Go on.
posted by mumimor at 4:20 PM on May 20, 2018 [18 favorites]
conventional beauty has absolutely nothing to do with attraction or love. I've had hundreds of students of all forms and shapes and races and religions, and their relationship history has never been correlated with how they resembled the current style. Don't ever think that your body may be wrong. You are beautiful. Go on.
posted by mumimor at 4:20 PM on May 20, 2018 [18 favorites]
I am a guy, so take this for what it is worth, but when I was in graduate school, I was speaking with a professor who asked me how I was, and I mentioned that my life was good, and the only thing I wished I had was a girlfriend.
It was then that she gave me the best dating advice I have ever received: "Just make good friends."
This turned out to be so true for me. When I focused on quality friendships, the rest kind of fell into place.
I read somewhere that Aristotle believed that friendship fell into three categories: people whom we become friends with because they are useful to us, friendships that we develop because they are enjoyable, and the third and best kind of friendship, the kind that exists for the sake of friendship itself. What ended up happening to me was that I reconnected with one of my very best friends from college, and we have been married for just over twenty years. Our existing friendship and shared history proved to be a solid foundation for us.
Forgive me for rambling, but you sound like you have the gift of making friends. Perhaps that is one of your best assets? I can't help but believe that this gift will lead you to the very best kind of friendship, the kind of romantic love that can exist with someone who is your very best friend.
I hope this somehow helps. All the best to you.
posted by 4ster at 4:42 PM on May 20, 2018 [20 favorites]
It was then that she gave me the best dating advice I have ever received: "Just make good friends."
This turned out to be so true for me. When I focused on quality friendships, the rest kind of fell into place.
I read somewhere that Aristotle believed that friendship fell into three categories: people whom we become friends with because they are useful to us, friendships that we develop because they are enjoyable, and the third and best kind of friendship, the kind that exists for the sake of friendship itself. What ended up happening to me was that I reconnected with one of my very best friends from college, and we have been married for just over twenty years. Our existing friendship and shared history proved to be a solid foundation for us.
Forgive me for rambling, but you sound like you have the gift of making friends. Perhaps that is one of your best assets? I can't help but believe that this gift will lead you to the very best kind of friendship, the kind of romantic love that can exist with someone who is your very best friend.
I hope this somehow helps. All the best to you.
posted by 4ster at 4:42 PM on May 20, 2018 [20 favorites]
Reading your question, there seems to me a big disparity between your focus on appearance and this bit: I like myself. I have an interesting job and a lot of creative hobbies, I'm a compassionate friend with a big social circle, and I'm frequently told I'm funny and smart. I have my share of problems like anyone else, but I don't go through life with a big "woe is me" chip on my shoulder.
It makes me wonder what you really value deep-down, what you think is really important. Do you really think that people who look "good" (attractive, sexy, conventional, whatever good means to you) are somehow worth more than people who don't? If you were fat, would others be right not to find you attractive? What you've written implies that you do think that, and also that not having good bone structure, an overbite and not being very well-endowed in the T&A department are similarly sensible reasons for men not to find you attractive.
As a compassionate friend, if you had a friend who said "I'm too fat to find a partner" or "my teeth stick out too much, no one will ever love me" what would you tell them? Would you just be trying to make them feel better or would you really mean it?
What would you think of a man who did find you attractive, but then a few years on after you had put on 10 or 20 pounds, broke up with you because you were now too fat?
What really matters to you?
Speaking as someone who is very fat, doesn't wear make-up or have long hair and definitely is not conventionally attractive, but who also does not value those things, I am in an easier position because by definition someone who does value appearance will not be interested in me. If you are correct in thinking that your appearance disqualifies you from the radar of people who value surface attractiveness, and that is not what you value, then you are also in that position. Congratulations!
I mean, I get it. Even though intellectually I think appearance shouldn't matter (and doesn't to me with choosing a partner) I still struggle with how I look and want to look nice and want to be found attractive even though I think I'm not and have a hard time believing people who think I am. We humans are nothing if not inconsistent. But I know that even though part of me likes to be thought shiny and pretty, it is not what it is most important to me, and it is not what I value most in others.
None of this will necessarily get you a partner instantly. I am not sure there is anything that will. But at least you might feel a bit better and find it a bit easier to be patient until you do.
posted by Athanassiel at 4:48 PM on May 20, 2018 [9 favorites]
It makes me wonder what you really value deep-down, what you think is really important. Do you really think that people who look "good" (attractive, sexy, conventional, whatever good means to you) are somehow worth more than people who don't? If you were fat, would others be right not to find you attractive? What you've written implies that you do think that, and also that not having good bone structure, an overbite and not being very well-endowed in the T&A department are similarly sensible reasons for men not to find you attractive.
As a compassionate friend, if you had a friend who said "I'm too fat to find a partner" or "my teeth stick out too much, no one will ever love me" what would you tell them? Would you just be trying to make them feel better or would you really mean it?
What would you think of a man who did find you attractive, but then a few years on after you had put on 10 or 20 pounds, broke up with you because you were now too fat?
What really matters to you?
Speaking as someone who is very fat, doesn't wear make-up or have long hair and definitely is not conventionally attractive, but who also does not value those things, I am in an easier position because by definition someone who does value appearance will not be interested in me. If you are correct in thinking that your appearance disqualifies you from the radar of people who value surface attractiveness, and that is not what you value, then you are also in that position. Congratulations!
I mean, I get it. Even though intellectually I think appearance shouldn't matter (and doesn't to me with choosing a partner) I still struggle with how I look and want to look nice and want to be found attractive even though I think I'm not and have a hard time believing people who think I am. We humans are nothing if not inconsistent. But I know that even though part of me likes to be thought shiny and pretty, it is not what it is most important to me, and it is not what I value most in others.
None of this will necessarily get you a partner instantly. I am not sure there is anything that will. But at least you might feel a bit better and find it a bit easier to be patient until you do.
posted by Athanassiel at 4:48 PM on May 20, 2018 [9 favorites]
A very good friend of mine is gently re-approaching dating several years after a very painful breakup and ... let me say that she has a lot of life; she's lit up inside. She's smart, she's funny, she writes, she does counseling. And she gives no shits. Men often find her intimidating. They even say so: "I find you intimidating. You're smarter than me, you use bigger words." As if to shame her into stepping down to their level.
Here's what she says back: "I dim my light for nobody. If you feel threatened by this feeling that I'm the brightest spark in the room, if you don't think you can handle it, we're done." I mean, literally that. It's like clap-your-hands and cheer.
If you want to pair (or more) up: make good friends. Put yourself into new social situations. Say HI when you might otherwise stay silent. But OP, please, don't dim your light for anyone. Somewhere out there you will find people who will love the light you throw.
posted by seanmpuckett at 4:51 PM on May 20, 2018 [71 favorites]
Here's what she says back: "I dim my light for nobody. If you feel threatened by this feeling that I'm the brightest spark in the room, if you don't think you can handle it, we're done." I mean, literally that. It's like clap-your-hands and cheer.
If you want to pair (or more) up: make good friends. Put yourself into new social situations. Say HI when you might otherwise stay silent. But OP, please, don't dim your light for anyone. Somewhere out there you will find people who will love the light you throw.
posted by seanmpuckett at 4:51 PM on May 20, 2018 [71 favorites]
I'm a man but I had an experience very similar to yours for a while - I did (and probably still do) see myself as unattractive to women. I'm married now, met mrs. eustacescrubb at an event featuring poetry, a thing we both enjoy. She's an actor and early on in our dating I expressed insecurity because she was surrounded by handsome men with square jaws and sixpacks and brilliant eyes and beautiful voices and no body fat and I'm a round-faced, tiny-eyed, soft-jawed, slightly overweight fellow. She laughed out loud and basically said that she never found men who look like that attractive. By whatever grace, I'm her type.
And then she told me that she thinks her nose is too big and her chin isn't pointy enough and she believes she is fat, and she hates the very visible secondary hair on her arms and back, and it was my turn to tell her that those are things I find extremely sexy about her.
We met when I was 39 and she 36. I'm not sure how old you are, but I just want to say: there's someone out there who will think you're hot. It might take a moment or two to find them, but they're out there. In the meantime, enjoy your life, follow the things that bring you joy and peace.
posted by eustacescrubb at 5:15 PM on May 20, 2018 [12 favorites]
And then she told me that she thinks her nose is too big and her chin isn't pointy enough and she believes she is fat, and she hates the very visible secondary hair on her arms and back, and it was my turn to tell her that those are things I find extremely sexy about her.
We met when I was 39 and she 36. I'm not sure how old you are, but I just want to say: there's someone out there who will think you're hot. It might take a moment or two to find them, but they're out there. In the meantime, enjoy your life, follow the things that bring you joy and peace.
posted by eustacescrubb at 5:15 PM on May 20, 2018 [12 favorites]
I could have written your post in my just before mid-20s. Lots of wise words were said above, and to them I will add:
I was miserable because I wanted to be pursued by someone who I thought reflected my value. I knew I had value, so why wasn't there anyone (who mattered) that was into me? A year or two before I had been mostly happy to be single. Then I got nest-y and coupling up became a driving need that messed up my self-worth for a stretch of time.
Fast forward: I have been married to a lovely man for over a decade. I pursued him, because I could tell we could be best friends + sparks. It took time to establish that we were indeed a good match. But we continue to be two slightly zany individuals who work well together. I recommend pursuing. You've undoubtedly done more work in thinking about who would be a good match for you, and are in the best position to find this match. Waiting around to be noticed is no guarantee that that 'picker' even recognizes their needs and your qualities.
Besides, you sound like a 'go getter' :-)
posted by Sauter Vaguely at 5:21 PM on May 20, 2018 [3 favorites]
I was miserable because I wanted to be pursued by someone who I thought reflected my value. I knew I had value, so why wasn't there anyone (who mattered) that was into me? A year or two before I had been mostly happy to be single. Then I got nest-y and coupling up became a driving need that messed up my self-worth for a stretch of time.
Fast forward: I have been married to a lovely man for over a decade. I pursued him, because I could tell we could be best friends + sparks. It took time to establish that we were indeed a good match. But we continue to be two slightly zany individuals who work well together. I recommend pursuing. You've undoubtedly done more work in thinking about who would be a good match for you, and are in the best position to find this match. Waiting around to be noticed is no guarantee that that 'picker' even recognizes their needs and your qualities.
Besides, you sound like a 'go getter' :-)
posted by Sauter Vaguely at 5:21 PM on May 20, 2018 [3 favorites]
This may also have a little bit to do with shifting cultural norms. I don't know what kind of social situations you are expecting men to approach you in, but woke men your age, the kind you want, are probably going to be sending very cautious feelers that might not read flirty in any situation like school, the gym, volunteer orgs, anything that's not a party or more explicitly ok-for-flirting social event. This is good - they are trying to allow you to be comfortable and live your life without every encounter with men being a prospect. I'm not sure your experience is unusual for people your age depending on social context, and it says nothing about your looks or personality. Its about at least a subset of men getting the message that not every interaction is an invitation.
posted by slow graffiti at 5:31 PM on May 20, 2018 [18 favorites]
posted by slow graffiti at 5:31 PM on May 20, 2018 [18 favorites]
Your experience sounds familiar to me - in college I lamented about this to a friend and she was honestly confused by me and said it's not that guys don't like me, it's that I don't like the guys. Her observation of me was that I gave off clear signals that I wasn't really into somebody. A lot. This was kind of news to me. But I realized she was right. For one thing, all the guys in college I was lamenting about - I didn't actually like them ; I just wanted validation.
I still don't suffer very well people I don't like - it's a flaw in general . But in the case of finding a partner,I think it served me really well. Maybe many woman learn to give the appearance of welcoming any man's attention (totally stereotyping assumption) but I don't think I did. Anyway I only ever had two serious bfs but I am happily married to the second for 10+ yrs. It was me that went after him in the first place. (Ymmv, just an anecdotal theory)
posted by Tandem Affinity at 6:41 PM on May 20, 2018 [36 favorites]
I still don't suffer very well people I don't like - it's a flaw in general . But in the case of finding a partner,I think it served me really well. Maybe many woman learn to give the appearance of welcoming any man's attention (totally stereotyping assumption) but I don't think I did. Anyway I only ever had two serious bfs but I am happily married to the second for 10+ yrs. It was me that went after him in the first place. (Ymmv, just an anecdotal theory)
posted by Tandem Affinity at 6:41 PM on May 20, 2018 [36 favorites]
Sample size of one, but I suddenly got a lot more attention from men starting in my 30s. I am now 40, and it continues, contrary to the BOGUS conventional wisdom about women "becoming invisible" as they age. I'm no model, but I am reasonably attractive, and somehow it just took longer for men to notice. Am I now more confident? More comfortable in my own skin? Are men past 30 more OK with kooky intellectuals? Did many years of monogamy make me more secure in my own attractiveness? Did my looks just plain improve with time? (That might be part of it, actually.) It's a mystery. But the same thing could very well happen to you. Be strong!
posted by 8603 at 6:46 PM on May 20, 2018 [9 favorites]
posted by 8603 at 6:46 PM on May 20, 2018 [9 favorites]
Just throwing a bunch of rando ideas out since honestly you sound fine. Do any of these stick:
- very cerebral personality, lead with intellect first, so no opening for intimacy (ie emotional connection) to start
- check yourself. Honestly are you a little afraid of intimacy, if people get too close does that make you nervous?
- accomplished but dating in the wrong pool (guys intimidated)
- you are just A type and really your match is going to be a more passive person (because you butt heads with A type guys)
- give away all the information about yourself right away (overshare) instead of holding back until someone worthy to share with comes along
- insecure and leaking out “approve of me” vibes
- talk too much about yourself and don’t take an interest in others?
- you got your emotional shit together, so it will take longer to find someone who also has his stuff together (a version of dating in the wrong pool, there’s a lotta broken people out there)
Dating is rough and it takes a while. Hang in there.
posted by St. Peepsburg at 7:14 PM on May 20, 2018 [6 favorites]
- very cerebral personality, lead with intellect first, so no opening for intimacy (ie emotional connection) to start
- check yourself. Honestly are you a little afraid of intimacy, if people get too close does that make you nervous?
- accomplished but dating in the wrong pool (guys intimidated)
- you are just A type and really your match is going to be a more passive person (because you butt heads with A type guys)
- give away all the information about yourself right away (overshare) instead of holding back until someone worthy to share with comes along
- insecure and leaking out “approve of me” vibes
- talk too much about yourself and don’t take an interest in others?
- you got your emotional shit together, so it will take longer to find someone who also has his stuff together (a version of dating in the wrong pool, there’s a lotta broken people out there)
Dating is rough and it takes a while. Hang in there.
posted by St. Peepsburg at 7:14 PM on May 20, 2018 [6 favorites]
This may either depress you or make you feel better- but it's likely not you. This is literally the worst dating environment for commitment that has ever graced modern times.
-When I was growing up if we wanted porn we'd literally have to travel to a store to buy it... then you'd have to find a private place in your home or elsewhere to peruse it and then find a place to hide it if you felt you could keep it. It was a little bit of an ordeal. Now you can literally get any kind you want at a whims notice in any room of your own home or office. I've seen how too much of that stuff has thwarted friend's minds and expectations of women, and it doesn't take much for it to be too much.
-When I was growing up people's options were limited to those in their surrounding neighborhoods, now there is always the potential for someone "better" if you "hang in there long enough" among a slew of neighborhoods and cities near you. Though both sexes suffer from the idea of "better", the fact is that women biologically have a much shorter time span for when they can play this game before they wake up. While men on the other hand can keep playing it for decades... and often do. I used to do online dating myself before I found my girl and I used to look at the guy's profiles once in a while to see my competition. Last month I was helping a friend out with their profile and could not believe how many guys from 10 years ago were STILL ON THESE SITES. Still at it after all this time. I know a guy who's in his 50's and he's on all the dating apps and sites and has been for years. He's even got an app that automatically swipes right on all the women so he doesn't even have to bother looking up their profiles to get a match. He keeps saying he's looking for "the one", but he's been saying that for decades and once the women in his life ask for commitment he freaks out and bails on them. People don't even need to go to a computer to gain access to hundreds of 'younger'/'better' options. They have it all on their phones and can peruse hundreds through out the day.
- When I was growing up I could see that men always preferred younger women, but I also remember a lot of men not wanting to be with women that were too much younger because they were afraid of the potential embarrassment of not being able to 'perform' the way a younger woman would be more acclimated to. A guy started to slow down 'down there' in his 40's not long after women started to go down in fertility. This varied among men, but generally speaking by 50's a guy simply didn't have it the way he did in his younger years. Well- now there's a little blue pill with zero side effects (except for those with severe heart issues) that is easily obtainable and just like that, that 55 year old guy can confidently fool himself into believing he can get a 21 year old with no fear of not being able to "keep up with her". (Does anyone remember how men used to say this phrase in regards to their fear?)
Case in point- a lot of guys just don't feel like they need to commit anymore and treat women like they are disposable. Women are playing the ridiculous "better" game too due to the internet- don't get me wrong. But because women don't have a little pink pill that makes them a fertile 20's forever, they snap out of that relatively soon and once that happens they are looking at the dating scene similar to how they always viewed it when I was growing up. But for guys it's a different story. As my Rabbi mentioned not long ago, women are now in an environment where the men seem to have all the cards. When women are the ones with the dating cards family life strives and morality (as well as religious life and communities) begin to strive, but when men are the ones with the dating cards the world goes to Hell because commitment suffers. Divorces skyrocket, Immorality climbs, children are abandoned, families are never formed, people are disposed of... all in the sake for the search of something "better". I grew up surrounded by families with strong married couples and really wanted to offer that kind of community to my kids, but there aren't enough of these around me right now. So ... yeah... It's not you. If that makes you feel better. For the sake of my own kids and the family environment I'd like to provide, I'm praying they come up with that little pink pill soon. In the meantime, I'd say go to some religious events (whatever religion you ascribe to) as in my experience people there are more commitment minded than what's out there online.
posted by fantasticness at 8:33 PM on May 20, 2018 [3 favorites]
-When I was growing up if we wanted porn we'd literally have to travel to a store to buy it... then you'd have to find a private place in your home or elsewhere to peruse it and then find a place to hide it if you felt you could keep it. It was a little bit of an ordeal. Now you can literally get any kind you want at a whims notice in any room of your own home or office. I've seen how too much of that stuff has thwarted friend's minds and expectations of women, and it doesn't take much for it to be too much.
-When I was growing up people's options were limited to those in their surrounding neighborhoods, now there is always the potential for someone "better" if you "hang in there long enough" among a slew of neighborhoods and cities near you. Though both sexes suffer from the idea of "better", the fact is that women biologically have a much shorter time span for when they can play this game before they wake up. While men on the other hand can keep playing it for decades... and often do. I used to do online dating myself before I found my girl and I used to look at the guy's profiles once in a while to see my competition. Last month I was helping a friend out with their profile and could not believe how many guys from 10 years ago were STILL ON THESE SITES. Still at it after all this time. I know a guy who's in his 50's and he's on all the dating apps and sites and has been for years. He's even got an app that automatically swipes right on all the women so he doesn't even have to bother looking up their profiles to get a match. He keeps saying he's looking for "the one", but he's been saying that for decades and once the women in his life ask for commitment he freaks out and bails on them. People don't even need to go to a computer to gain access to hundreds of 'younger'/'better' options. They have it all on their phones and can peruse hundreds through out the day.
- When I was growing up I could see that men always preferred younger women, but I also remember a lot of men not wanting to be with women that were too much younger because they were afraid of the potential embarrassment of not being able to 'perform' the way a younger woman would be more acclimated to. A guy started to slow down 'down there' in his 40's not long after women started to go down in fertility. This varied among men, but generally speaking by 50's a guy simply didn't have it the way he did in his younger years. Well- now there's a little blue pill with zero side effects (except for those with severe heart issues) that is easily obtainable and just like that, that 55 year old guy can confidently fool himself into believing he can get a 21 year old with no fear of not being able to "keep up with her". (Does anyone remember how men used to say this phrase in regards to their fear?)
Case in point- a lot of guys just don't feel like they need to commit anymore and treat women like they are disposable. Women are playing the ridiculous "better" game too due to the internet- don't get me wrong. But because women don't have a little pink pill that makes them a fertile 20's forever, they snap out of that relatively soon and once that happens they are looking at the dating scene similar to how they always viewed it when I was growing up. But for guys it's a different story. As my Rabbi mentioned not long ago, women are now in an environment where the men seem to have all the cards. When women are the ones with the dating cards family life strives and morality (as well as religious life and communities) begin to strive, but when men are the ones with the dating cards the world goes to Hell because commitment suffers. Divorces skyrocket, Immorality climbs, children are abandoned, families are never formed, people are disposed of... all in the sake for the search of something "better". I grew up surrounded by families with strong married couples and really wanted to offer that kind of community to my kids, but there aren't enough of these around me right now. So ... yeah... It's not you. If that makes you feel better. For the sake of my own kids and the family environment I'd like to provide, I'm praying they come up with that little pink pill soon. In the meantime, I'd say go to some religious events (whatever religion you ascribe to) as in my experience people there are more commitment minded than what's out there online.
posted by fantasticness at 8:33 PM on May 20, 2018 [3 favorites]
Anyone can find love, but of course being good looking helps with finding dates.
I'm not sure I buy all the 'you're obviously not compliant/you're obviously too confident/you're obviously too whatever for men' either. Lots of sassy, noncompliant, interesting women have a boyfriend or husband! (I like to think I'm one of them!)
I think the truth is that we just can't know, from the limited info we have, what the problem is! I'm sorry you are feeling down about it though.
posted by thereader at 8:54 PM on May 20, 2018 [3 favorites]
I'm not sure I buy all the 'you're obviously not compliant/you're obviously too confident/you're obviously too whatever for men' either. Lots of sassy, noncompliant, interesting women have a boyfriend or husband! (I like to think I'm one of them!)
I think the truth is that we just can't know, from the limited info we have, what the problem is! I'm sorry you are feeling down about it though.
posted by thereader at 8:54 PM on May 20, 2018 [3 favorites]
At the end of the day it's so hard to say. I do agree that women of all physical types can attract men. If men are responsive when you initiate that's a good thing. Who says guys have to initiate anyway? I'm also curious what city you live in. If it's a smaller town then that might explain the lack of hits. Online dating is certainly a lot based on looks...at least to start with. But it's not just a about good looking...guys are not just attracted to conventionally pretty women. Guys want women who are fun. I'm not saying you're not fun...i don't know if you are or aren't. But think about your profile. Does it say I'm fun? Be honest, get opinions from friends. I would much rather date a girl who might not be magazine attractive but is fun then a stereotypical pretty girl who is dull, mean, or fake.
posted by ljs30 at 9:39 PM on May 20, 2018
posted by ljs30 at 9:39 PM on May 20, 2018
I am a 50 something year old man who is dating a 50 something year old woman who has never been married. (I am divorced.) While I never really delve too deeply into her history as I care about her future, I suspect she went through many of the same thoughts. Well, I do not have much to add except to say that it seems to me that timing and fate play the biggest part in meeting the right person. Having read your post several times, I, a guy, think you will find the right person. There are guys looking for bright, funny, confident, women. They are not intimidated by them. My guess is your looks are much better than you are currently thinking, but know that there are a lot of guys, me included, that seek beauty on the inside and everything on the outside is icing on the cake.
Oh, all three of the long term relationships I have been in, including my 20+ year marriage, the woman approached me first. I do not know if that is coincidence or something else, but it is true.
posted by AugustWest at 9:44 PM on May 20, 2018 [2 favorites]
Oh, all three of the long term relationships I have been in, including my 20+ year marriage, the woman approached me first. I do not know if that is coincidence or something else, but it is true.
posted by AugustWest at 9:44 PM on May 20, 2018 [2 favorites]
The reason you are not harassed is that those men who enjoy humiliating women avoid strong women
jesus christ.
the actual reason you're not harassed is because you've been lucky, so far. men also say awful things to strange women they think are ugly, not just women they think are pretty. some men like to victimize the frightened; other men like to take "strong women" down a peg. so you can't draw any conclusions about your looks or your projected persona from this. you will probably run out of luck, someday, but it's unpredictable. It says nothing about you, at all. It certainly doesn't imply greater weakness in women who get harassed all the time.
you seem too smart to be taken in by the widespread aggressive insistence that men are repelled by your smartness or confidence or whatever. (plus, if your self-esteem is "crushed," too much confidence can't be it.) If your exes really did discard you instead of just breaking up with you, it could be your only problem is bad taste in, or insufficient knowledge of, the men you choose to approach. that's not a core quality in you and can be improved.
or you may be just bad at passive flirtation, at making men realize you're interested and will say Yes if they ask you something, without directly saying so. it's what makes ineffably attractive women attractive, but it's a lot more work and hassle than the direct approach. I don't recommend it but it's pretty much the only other option.
what I think is that you aren't taking your past successes as signs of success because a thing you've already achieved loses its mystique. You've had "relationships" - you've asked men out, asked them to sleep with you, and they've said yes to both. There are women your age and older and much older who can't say the same. is it depressing and horrible that they left you for other people, making you feel devalued, and weren't passionately in love with you? yes. does that happen to the most beautiful and sexy women in the world? also yes.
posted by queenofbithynia at 11:30 PM on May 20, 2018 [38 favorites]
jesus christ.
the actual reason you're not harassed is because you've been lucky, so far. men also say awful things to strange women they think are ugly, not just women they think are pretty. some men like to victimize the frightened; other men like to take "strong women" down a peg. so you can't draw any conclusions about your looks or your projected persona from this. you will probably run out of luck, someday, but it's unpredictable. It says nothing about you, at all. It certainly doesn't imply greater weakness in women who get harassed all the time.
you seem too smart to be taken in by the widespread aggressive insistence that men are repelled by your smartness or confidence or whatever. (plus, if your self-esteem is "crushed," too much confidence can't be it.) If your exes really did discard you instead of just breaking up with you, it could be your only problem is bad taste in, or insufficient knowledge of, the men you choose to approach. that's not a core quality in you and can be improved.
or you may be just bad at passive flirtation, at making men realize you're interested and will say Yes if they ask you something, without directly saying so. it's what makes ineffably attractive women attractive, but it's a lot more work and hassle than the direct approach. I don't recommend it but it's pretty much the only other option.
what I think is that you aren't taking your past successes as signs of success because a thing you've already achieved loses its mystique. You've had "relationships" - you've asked men out, asked them to sleep with you, and they've said yes to both. There are women your age and older and much older who can't say the same. is it depressing and horrible that they left you for other people, making you feel devalued, and weren't passionately in love with you? yes. does that happen to the most beautiful and sexy women in the world? also yes.
posted by queenofbithynia at 11:30 PM on May 20, 2018 [38 favorites]
I have this problem in my 40s and I had it in my 20s and 30s. And teens. I spent a LOT of time thinking I must not be attractive enough and worrying about that. I now realize that I wasted a lot of time and energy fretting over my appearance. But when I looked around I could see that people who were fatter and less attractive than me, with more arm fat and worse skin, who had found love and seemed happy - this tells me that there's some other reason I'm not in a relationship. At this point I think these things are bigger contributors:
* There's a whole thing that happens before two strangers in a public space start talking - eye contact, smiling, cues, etc. I'm no good at this and am terrified to try it anyway.
* Well into my 20s, every time I opened my mouth I was trying to make sure people knew I was smart. While playing dumb isn't the right approach, I've found I'm less lonely when I stop trying to prove I'm smart and focus on connection instead.
* I'm terrible at flirting - something I learned from multiple acting classes.
* I struggle with establishing emotional connections with men
* I'm scared of men and find it hard to trust them
* Deep down I'm not sure I want a relationship and I preemptively resent the expectation that I'll do the "woman's work"
That's just me. But these are things I can work on and explore, and that feels a lot more productive than hating on my looks.
posted by bunderful at 4:45 AM on May 21, 2018 [11 favorites]
* There's a whole thing that happens before two strangers in a public space start talking - eye contact, smiling, cues, etc. I'm no good at this and am terrified to try it anyway.
* Well into my 20s, every time I opened my mouth I was trying to make sure people knew I was smart. While playing dumb isn't the right approach, I've found I'm less lonely when I stop trying to prove I'm smart and focus on connection instead.
* I'm terrible at flirting - something I learned from multiple acting classes.
* I struggle with establishing emotional connections with men
* I'm scared of men and find it hard to trust them
* Deep down I'm not sure I want a relationship and I preemptively resent the expectation that I'll do the "woman's work"
That's just me. But these are things I can work on and explore, and that feels a lot more productive than hating on my looks.
posted by bunderful at 4:45 AM on May 21, 2018 [11 favorites]
So. Everyone has given great advice and food for thought. I'm wading in anyhow because this is a topic I've thought a lot about lately, as I watch my friends and colleagues negotiate the totally bonkers no-man's-land between college-style and/or casual dating and the search for their first committed "adult" relationships (i.e., the mid-to-late twenties). TL;DR version of my answer: You're convinced that the fact you generally do the pursuing, indicates some deep disturbing problem within you. It doesn't. It's crushing and frustrating to be rejected by a partner, but being Chosen(TM) by a guy doesn't preclude also being dumped, as I'm sure you've noticed. Assuming it's even entirely true, all it shows is that your particular self doesn't line up with the deeply toxic, denigrating, abusive narrative our culture pushes about the proper roles of men and women and how they should construct their respective senses of self-worth. If it's true, THAT IS NOT A BAD THING. On the contrary, I think it's evidence that you are a truly interesting badass and living proof there's hope for the future. I guess my answer is two-pronged:
1) A LID FOR EVERY POT, or, NO SERIOUSLY, IT'S NOT YOU AND REGARDLESS OF HOW SHITTY YOU FEEL NOW YOU ARE 99,999999999% GOING TO FIND A PARTNER WHO'S RIGHT FOR YOU:
A brutal truth is that, sure, the very most conventionally beautiful/striking people, of any gender, are going to attract the most outright attention from the most people, if you're measuring that by the number of strangers who approach you in bars or on Tinder. Another brutal truth: "most people" are assholes, or at any rate are not going to be satisfying partners for you. The immediate attention might be an ego-boost, but that's as far as it goes. I respectfully and in the most friendly way possible suggest you simply drop that as a metric, if it's something you've been paying attention to til now. It's not serving you, and very few of those encounters end in anything remotely satisfying, sexually or otherwise.
I myself was convinced until the age of 17 I would die a virgin (a fate which has since, uh, been averted), because I was 5'1" and a D-cup with size 10 hips and chipmunk cheeks, and not willowy and giggly and lissome with a finely turned leg or whatever the hell like my fellow high-school girls. Then I got to college, and it was a revelation. I met women of every possible description, many of them bigger than me, with less conventional features or personal styles, more outspoken, more abrasive, more nerdy, who not only successfully hooked up and dated around but were actually PARTNERED with fantastic guys, guys in some cases more conventionally attractive than they were. (All the examples I can think of offhand are now married, frequently to the men they were dating when we met.) And those men were wild about their girlfriends. I also had friends who WERE stereotypically pretty and nice, who struggled and in some cases continue to struggle mightily to find partners, and I was totally stumped by it, but know for a FACT it had nothing to do with them not being desirable.
It was liberating but also mystifying: if it wasn't prettiness or even charm, what was it? I have another, beloved friend who has been plus-size and, as she puts it, Rather A Lot her whole life and hasn't been single a day in that life since we were 15 (we're now pushing 30). I adore her and we share every detail of our lives, and I still haven't been able to figure out her secret. (I suspect it's that she is deeply comfortable in who she is and very obviously does not care if you aren't.) But I know it's there, and has zero to do with how she stacks up against Bella Hadid or Taylor Swift or whoever. I am still chipmunk-cheeked and deeply unremarkable and currently have a lovely, conventionally handsome boyfriend of 8+ years who regularly tells me how great he thinks I am. (Go figure.) As time has gone on, I have also begun to be propositioned on occasion by men in bars, seminars, meetup groups, etc. who, SURPRISE! often turn out to be jerks. In short, the "problem" is highly unlikely to be your looks, nor even your personality, since you say you otherwise have lots of fulfilling relationships in your life. It's that attraction, contrary to evo-psych/Grazia/MRA "bone structure11!!!1" bullshit and our own worst fears, can be unpredictable and magical and frustrating. And also deeply weird.
2) SOCIETAL NARRATIVES PUT BOTH SEXES IN A CRAPPY POSITION PREDICATED ON THE DEVALUATION AND PSYCHOLOGICAL CONTROL OF WOMEN, or, A LOT OF POTENTIAL PARTNERS ARE WORSE THAN SINGLEDOM, AND WE HAVE GOT TO LEARN TO FILL OUR OWN CUPS:
Another, in my opinion harsher truth is this: yes, certain women who answer to a certain definition of beauty or likability attract more men--and many men's attentions are not worth very much, because they want women who are easy to handle, don't talk back, don't threaten their sense of control and also preferably whose tits make their buddies jealous. Men, in short, who want status objects rather than partners. (See also: incels.) That's the scam. Even women who get that brass ring, are not made happy by it (or if they are, live in a state of constant narcissistic anxiety about the looks from which they derive their entire self-worth, since those inevitably change--take it from someone who has been friends with a higher-than-average number of gorgeous women). This is because beauty attracts healthy, stable men and also a lot of abusive, insecure pyschos. Guess who's willing to go futher and construct a more elaborate persona to seduce/"attain" women they view as trophies? Yeah.
And yes, dumbing yourself down, seeming more stereotpyically "nice", might encourage more people to approach you. It's true, and it's gross and not worth it. Women who are willing to soften their opinions and put up with disrespect and laugh at mediocre jokes are going to be way more popular on the dating scene than prickly, difficult women who disagree/object to being spoken to like idiots/dare to be funnier than men in public. The awful truth I'm coming to grasp is that with many, many men (especially a superficially smart/attractive lacrosse-captain type that seems to be popular amongst my friends), the price of being desired or even just tolerated is your self-respect. Really think about that. Our socialization has has convinced us as women that even 30 seconds of male validation is worth more than our own day-to-day happiness and self-respect, in a way men as a group are really not subjected to. And it's a bargain we all go in for to a certain extent, because the few alternative scripts we have--spinster, lesbian, man-eater--are held up as some of the worst fates imaginable in artistic works going back thousands of years.
I mention this because if you're like me, your gut-level response to "these sought-after people are not necessarily happy" is, "WHO CARES?! At least these other women aren't invisible. At least they have the security and satisfaction of being desired. Let me see just once what it's like, and maybe THEN I'll believe your Pollyanna BS about how true beauty lies within and scrapbooking is better than orgasms, asshole." But here's the thing, dear OP: the only reason, as fantasticness put it, "men hold all the cards" in dating, IS THAT WE FUCKING HAND THEM OVER TO THEM by thinking this way, by engaging in a level of self-doubt about our own inherent worth that men simply are not trained to even be capable of (at least not in relation to their romantic lives). Things will only start to get better for all of us when we as women do the opposite of what our programming tells us is right and natural and comfortable, and reject the Sleeping Beauty narrative, even if it feels bizarre and scary to do so.
Because my honest advice is that, while you sound perfectly attractive and like you're not doing anything "wrong" in this arena, the more you can approach dating from a position of strength, the better off you will be regardless of the outcome. "Position of strength" means really putting in the work, possibly with a therapist (the dreaded Mefi panacea, I know) of figuring out how to build a happy life and a solid sense of self-worth even if the partner thing never happens. Which, again, is honestly a highly unlikely outcome for you, but is the only long-term way out of the very understandable unhappiness you seem to be feeling. It's also, more pragmatically, going to make you a lot more attractive as a partner to the right kind of guy, that is to say, someone respectful and well-adjusted who wants to be with an adult woman and not a talking trophy/doll.
OK, shutting up now. You sound awesome. I wish you luck.
posted by TinyChicken at 6:54 AM on May 21, 2018 [27 favorites]
1) A LID FOR EVERY POT, or, NO SERIOUSLY, IT'S NOT YOU AND REGARDLESS OF HOW SHITTY YOU FEEL NOW YOU ARE 99,999999999% GOING TO FIND A PARTNER WHO'S RIGHT FOR YOU:
A brutal truth is that, sure, the very most conventionally beautiful/striking people, of any gender, are going to attract the most outright attention from the most people, if you're measuring that by the number of strangers who approach you in bars or on Tinder. Another brutal truth: "most people" are assholes, or at any rate are not going to be satisfying partners for you. The immediate attention might be an ego-boost, but that's as far as it goes. I respectfully and in the most friendly way possible suggest you simply drop that as a metric, if it's something you've been paying attention to til now. It's not serving you, and very few of those encounters end in anything remotely satisfying, sexually or otherwise.
I myself was convinced until the age of 17 I would die a virgin (a fate which has since, uh, been averted), because I was 5'1" and a D-cup with size 10 hips and chipmunk cheeks, and not willowy and giggly and lissome with a finely turned leg or whatever the hell like my fellow high-school girls. Then I got to college, and it was a revelation. I met women of every possible description, many of them bigger than me, with less conventional features or personal styles, more outspoken, more abrasive, more nerdy, who not only successfully hooked up and dated around but were actually PARTNERED with fantastic guys, guys in some cases more conventionally attractive than they were. (All the examples I can think of offhand are now married, frequently to the men they were dating when we met.) And those men were wild about their girlfriends. I also had friends who WERE stereotypically pretty and nice, who struggled and in some cases continue to struggle mightily to find partners, and I was totally stumped by it, but know for a FACT it had nothing to do with them not being desirable.
It was liberating but also mystifying: if it wasn't prettiness or even charm, what was it? I have another, beloved friend who has been plus-size and, as she puts it, Rather A Lot her whole life and hasn't been single a day in that life since we were 15 (we're now pushing 30). I adore her and we share every detail of our lives, and I still haven't been able to figure out her secret. (I suspect it's that she is deeply comfortable in who she is and very obviously does not care if you aren't.) But I know it's there, and has zero to do with how she stacks up against Bella Hadid or Taylor Swift or whoever. I am still chipmunk-cheeked and deeply unremarkable and currently have a lovely, conventionally handsome boyfriend of 8+ years who regularly tells me how great he thinks I am. (Go figure.) As time has gone on, I have also begun to be propositioned on occasion by men in bars, seminars, meetup groups, etc. who, SURPRISE! often turn out to be jerks. In short, the "problem" is highly unlikely to be your looks, nor even your personality, since you say you otherwise have lots of fulfilling relationships in your life. It's that attraction, contrary to evo-psych/Grazia/MRA "bone structure11!!!1" bullshit and our own worst fears, can be unpredictable and magical and frustrating. And also deeply weird.
2) SOCIETAL NARRATIVES PUT BOTH SEXES IN A CRAPPY POSITION PREDICATED ON THE DEVALUATION AND PSYCHOLOGICAL CONTROL OF WOMEN, or, A LOT OF POTENTIAL PARTNERS ARE WORSE THAN SINGLEDOM, AND WE HAVE GOT TO LEARN TO FILL OUR OWN CUPS:
Another, in my opinion harsher truth is this: yes, certain women who answer to a certain definition of beauty or likability attract more men--and many men's attentions are not worth very much, because they want women who are easy to handle, don't talk back, don't threaten their sense of control and also preferably whose tits make their buddies jealous. Men, in short, who want status objects rather than partners. (See also: incels.) That's the scam. Even women who get that brass ring, are not made happy by it (or if they are, live in a state of constant narcissistic anxiety about the looks from which they derive their entire self-worth, since those inevitably change--take it from someone who has been friends with a higher-than-average number of gorgeous women). This is because beauty attracts healthy, stable men and also a lot of abusive, insecure pyschos. Guess who's willing to go futher and construct a more elaborate persona to seduce/"attain" women they view as trophies? Yeah.
And yes, dumbing yourself down, seeming more stereotpyically "nice", might encourage more people to approach you. It's true, and it's gross and not worth it. Women who are willing to soften their opinions and put up with disrespect and laugh at mediocre jokes are going to be way more popular on the dating scene than prickly, difficult women who disagree/object to being spoken to like idiots/dare to be funnier than men in public. The awful truth I'm coming to grasp is that with many, many men (especially a superficially smart/attractive lacrosse-captain type that seems to be popular amongst my friends), the price of being desired or even just tolerated is your self-respect. Really think about that. Our socialization has has convinced us as women that even 30 seconds of male validation is worth more than our own day-to-day happiness and self-respect, in a way men as a group are really not subjected to. And it's a bargain we all go in for to a certain extent, because the few alternative scripts we have--spinster, lesbian, man-eater--are held up as some of the worst fates imaginable in artistic works going back thousands of years.
I mention this because if you're like me, your gut-level response to "these sought-after people are not necessarily happy" is, "WHO CARES?! At least these other women aren't invisible. At least they have the security and satisfaction of being desired. Let me see just once what it's like, and maybe THEN I'll believe your Pollyanna BS about how true beauty lies within and scrapbooking is better than orgasms, asshole." But here's the thing, dear OP: the only reason, as fantasticness put it, "men hold all the cards" in dating, IS THAT WE FUCKING HAND THEM OVER TO THEM by thinking this way, by engaging in a level of self-doubt about our own inherent worth that men simply are not trained to even be capable of (at least not in relation to their romantic lives). Things will only start to get better for all of us when we as women do the opposite of what our programming tells us is right and natural and comfortable, and reject the Sleeping Beauty narrative, even if it feels bizarre and scary to do so.
Because my honest advice is that, while you sound perfectly attractive and like you're not doing anything "wrong" in this arena, the more you can approach dating from a position of strength, the better off you will be regardless of the outcome. "Position of strength" means really putting in the work, possibly with a therapist (the dreaded Mefi panacea, I know) of figuring out how to build a happy life and a solid sense of self-worth even if the partner thing never happens. Which, again, is honestly a highly unlikely outcome for you, but is the only long-term way out of the very understandable unhappiness you seem to be feeling. It's also, more pragmatically, going to make you a lot more attractive as a partner to the right kind of guy, that is to say, someone respectful and well-adjusted who wants to be with an adult woman and not a talking trophy/doll.
OK, shutting up now. You sound awesome. I wish you luck.
posted by TinyChicken at 6:54 AM on May 21, 2018 [27 favorites]
I don't think anyone can tell you for sure why you aren't being cold approached but I'll offer an anecdote.
Many years ago I helped a good friend organize and put on an internal tech training program at the large corporation we both worked out. It was really great helping and meeting all the people that came through the program. There was lots of camaraderie and friendliness as this was a shared experience that everyone was excited to do.
With that said, there was a woman that went through the program that was just standoffish, seemingly dismissive and seemed like she was above it all. She was also stunningly attractive. After a week or two noticing that this woman's demeanor didn't really change, I mentioned this to my friend who was running the program. My friend has the warm and open personality that causes people of all stripes to confess deep truths to her. She said that this woman in the class wasn't standoffish but rather was off the charts shy to the point of it being debilitating.
The point being I completely incorrectly judged her social cues as indifferent/blase/standoffish whereas her true feelings were something completely different. I'm not saying that is exactly what you are doing but the public perception of you might be different than what you think you are giving off.
Good luck.
posted by mmascolino at 7:25 AM on May 21, 2018 [6 favorites]
Many years ago I helped a good friend organize and put on an internal tech training program at the large corporation we both worked out. It was really great helping and meeting all the people that came through the program. There was lots of camaraderie and friendliness as this was a shared experience that everyone was excited to do.
With that said, there was a woman that went through the program that was just standoffish, seemingly dismissive and seemed like she was above it all. She was also stunningly attractive. After a week or two noticing that this woman's demeanor didn't really change, I mentioned this to my friend who was running the program. My friend has the warm and open personality that causes people of all stripes to confess deep truths to her. She said that this woman in the class wasn't standoffish but rather was off the charts shy to the point of it being debilitating.
The point being I completely incorrectly judged her social cues as indifferent/blase/standoffish whereas her true feelings were something completely different. I'm not saying that is exactly what you are doing but the public perception of you might be different than what you think you are giving off.
Good luck.
posted by mmascolino at 7:25 AM on May 21, 2018 [6 favorites]
I've since gone through long stretches where I was unable to find even a casual sex partner, which according to the Internet means I must be a unicorn.
Yeah well the thing about the Internet is it's a giant self-perpetuating lie machine populated heavily by literal nazis and virulent misogynists so like...who gives a fuck what the Internet says? Most people go through long stretches where they're unable to find a casual sex partner. (For some of us that stretch is called "our entire lives," for any number of reasons.)
I kind of agree that we're in an ultra-shitty transition point in our culture, where all kinds of people are piping up to say "hey we're human beings, quit treating us like shit" and unfortunately the one demo that is VERY EXTREMELY SLOW to catch onto this is the demo you're trying to date: straight dudes. So you have these very correct expectations of being treated well and with respect and dudes are looking at you like you have eleven heads because WHAT.
This is different from "oh you're just too smart/independent/amazing for them," which is a thing your mom says and nobody ever believes. It's that literally anyone is too smart/independent/amazing for them because they have no conception of how to treat people who aren't them like people.
The thing I have found as an ugly-ish -- I'm not frightening small children out here, but like, there's nothing special goin on -- but fit and well-groomed woman, is that I do not shine in the "casual" context at all. So I just basically went the relationships route, which meant I was single a lot, and did a fair bit of pursuing, and just slowly got better at picking dudes worth picking.
I don't know what to tell you about the compliment thing, though. I can count on one hand the compliments given to me by dudes in my 37 years and friend, I have been *married*. And frankly a number of MUCH more attractive friends report the same. So, yeah, parents: teach your sons to say something fucking nice for once in their goddamn lives, it won't kill them.
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 8:33 AM on May 21, 2018 [13 favorites]
Yeah well the thing about the Internet is it's a giant self-perpetuating lie machine populated heavily by literal nazis and virulent misogynists so like...who gives a fuck what the Internet says? Most people go through long stretches where they're unable to find a casual sex partner. (For some of us that stretch is called "our entire lives," for any number of reasons.)
I kind of agree that we're in an ultra-shitty transition point in our culture, where all kinds of people are piping up to say "hey we're human beings, quit treating us like shit" and unfortunately the one demo that is VERY EXTREMELY SLOW to catch onto this is the demo you're trying to date: straight dudes. So you have these very correct expectations of being treated well and with respect and dudes are looking at you like you have eleven heads because WHAT.
This is different from "oh you're just too smart/independent/amazing for them," which is a thing your mom says and nobody ever believes. It's that literally anyone is too smart/independent/amazing for them because they have no conception of how to treat people who aren't them like people.
The thing I have found as an ugly-ish -- I'm not frightening small children out here, but like, there's nothing special goin on -- but fit and well-groomed woman, is that I do not shine in the "casual" context at all. So I just basically went the relationships route, which meant I was single a lot, and did a fair bit of pursuing, and just slowly got better at picking dudes worth picking.
I don't know what to tell you about the compliment thing, though. I can count on one hand the compliments given to me by dudes in my 37 years and friend, I have been *married*. And frankly a number of MUCH more attractive friends report the same. So, yeah, parents: teach your sons to say something fucking nice for once in their goddamn lives, it won't kill them.
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 8:33 AM on May 21, 2018 [13 favorites]
OK upon re-reading, We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese made exactly my point in 90% fewer words. They are right on the money.
posted by TinyChicken at 9:28 AM on May 21, 2018
posted by TinyChicken at 9:28 AM on May 21, 2018
Oh, also. A thing I forgot.
Obviously, nothing I said addresses the stinging feeling of being unwanted/undesired. I do remember how badly that hurt and sucked no matter how good other things were in my life. I can also tell you that somehow I turned 30 and just...never gave a shit about it again? Like, seriously zero shits. Whereas in my 20s it was a very overwhelming fear/feeling and any unrequited attraction/attachment felt extremely awful indeed.
If I didn't think evo-psych was a crock of shit I'd almost be inclined to think it's some kind of hormone thing meant to make us maximally partner-driven during our most fertile years.
So, I have no solutions for the feeling you have but don't be surprised if one day it just up and evaporates on ya.
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 10:13 AM on May 21, 2018
Obviously, nothing I said addresses the stinging feeling of being unwanted/undesired. I do remember how badly that hurt and sucked no matter how good other things were in my life. I can also tell you that somehow I turned 30 and just...never gave a shit about it again? Like, seriously zero shits. Whereas in my 20s it was a very overwhelming fear/feeling and any unrequited attraction/attachment felt extremely awful indeed.
If I didn't think evo-psych was a crock of shit I'd almost be inclined to think it's some kind of hormone thing meant to make us maximally partner-driven during our most fertile years.
So, I have no solutions for the feeling you have but don't be surprised if one day it just up and evaporates on ya.
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 10:13 AM on May 21, 2018
This is such a brave and vulnerable ask. If you were my friend I'd be offering a hug right about now.
I tend toward being the initiator as well, and I'll tell you some things I've learned along the way.
Each of us has our own frame for seeing the world, and a huge set of underlying assumptions, often unexamined, that color our perceptions and interpretations. It can be very, very difficult to learn where your blind spots are.
This is absolutely true with respect to being the one who chooses in a relationship, or the one who is chosen.
There are a few answers along the lines of "years later I looked back and realized who was romantically interested in me". I've had that experience, too. Many other people I've known who didn't have the dating lives they might have liked, eventually get to the point that they reassess their histories as well.
I say this not to say that you're doing anything wrong, per se, more that you may benefit from doing some personal work to re-evaluate your filters.
posted by Sublimity at 1:42 PM on May 21, 2018
I tend toward being the initiator as well, and I'll tell you some things I've learned along the way.
Each of us has our own frame for seeing the world, and a huge set of underlying assumptions, often unexamined, that color our perceptions and interpretations. It can be very, very difficult to learn where your blind spots are.
This is absolutely true with respect to being the one who chooses in a relationship, or the one who is chosen.
There are a few answers along the lines of "years later I looked back and realized who was romantically interested in me". I've had that experience, too. Many other people I've known who didn't have the dating lives they might have liked, eventually get to the point that they reassess their histories as well.
I say this not to say that you're doing anything wrong, per se, more that you may benefit from doing some personal work to re-evaluate your filters.
posted by Sublimity at 1:42 PM on May 21, 2018
I like a lot of the answers along the lines of "I never found anyone and screw it, don't waste your time" or "look for friends" or "a lid for every pot," and especially that line about being bespoke, because hell yeah to that. I am rather sad after reading all of that about what I'm gonna say here since I am about as flirtatious as a rock and lord knows this isn't coming from my personal experience. But.
I am reading "Wallis in Love" by Andrew Morton right now. Wallis Simpson wasn't a conventionally attractive lady. She was considered rather mannish looking, was a racist manstealing jerk, and apparently didn't even like sex that much-- she just loved the flirting. However, she attracted dudes all over the damn place by giving them her full big blue eyed attention, paying attention to their interests, etc. From what I recall of "Gone With The Wind," Scarlett O'Hara wasn't the world's most ravishing lady either but she had flirtatious, paying attention to the dude stuff going on all the time too. If this is something that's really concerning you, you might want to read up on ladies like that and how they attracted dudes like flies to honey. It seems to be some kind of attention thing that does it.
posted by jenfullmoon at 9:06 PM on May 21, 2018 [1 favorite]
I am reading "Wallis in Love" by Andrew Morton right now. Wallis Simpson wasn't a conventionally attractive lady. She was considered rather mannish looking, was a racist manstealing jerk, and apparently didn't even like sex that much-- she just loved the flirting. However, she attracted dudes all over the damn place by giving them her full big blue eyed attention, paying attention to their interests, etc. From what I recall of "Gone With The Wind," Scarlett O'Hara wasn't the world's most ravishing lady either but she had flirtatious, paying attention to the dude stuff going on all the time too. If this is something that's really concerning you, you might want to read up on ladies like that and how they attracted dudes like flies to honey. It seems to be some kind of attention thing that does it.
posted by jenfullmoon at 9:06 PM on May 21, 2018 [1 favorite]
guys who weren't interested in funny or talky or forceful women always ran the other way,
Paradoxically, the goal of dating is to break up as quickly as possible. Having tried staying in a long term relationship where I was not respected, let me say that given the choice I'd rather be you.
posted by justsomebodythatyouusedtoknow at 3:28 PM on May 23, 2018 [3 favorites]
Paradoxically, the goal of dating is to break up as quickly as possible. Having tried staying in a long term relationship where I was not respected, let me say that given the choice I'd rather be you.
posted by justsomebodythatyouusedtoknow at 3:28 PM on May 23, 2018 [3 favorites]
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I could have written this Ask a couple of years ago. I certainly considered it. I had never been approached by a man, or had a drink bought for me by a stranger, or any of that. My best friend would complain about getting leered at by the sketchy construction workers outside our building and a little piece of me was jealous. I thought I was pretty nice looking, and not too abrasive, but something about me was just not appealing to guys.
And then one day I met a guy online (on Coffee Meets Bagel, after what felt like ages of no online dating luck). He tells me I’m pretty (and believes it), and loves me, and our life is pretty damn amazing right now.
So, data point of one, but the answer might be: patience.
posted by schroedingersgirl at 2:04 PM on May 20, 2018 [12 favorites]