How do working parents get everything done?
May 5, 2018 4:13 PM Subscribe
...and have time for anything else? I have a 5 year old and a 2 year old. My wife and I work full time, demanding jobs. We have 45 minute commutes. The kids are in day care. We have a babysitter once a week for date night or working late. Between groceries, cooking, haircuts, taking care of the house (ie managing people who take care of the house), doctor appointments, staying home with sick kids, occasional business travel, school visits, etc, etc, we’re exhausted and have little time and energy for fun. The weekends and evenings are like second jobs but with screaming kids in the background. How do other couples in this situation manage? Are we being unrealistic to try and both work full time?
So this is coming from someone who doesn't have kids. I'm married and we have a dog and 2 cats. The question you write here still rings close to me because I wonder what we would do if we had kids and both continued our full time jobs. That being said there are a few ways to analyze this and try to figure out the best solution as far as whether you're being unrealistic about both working full time. As far as couples managing the situation...I can't speak from experience but I can tell you what friends tell me.
First, as far as both working full time I'd say the biggest thing to figure out is if financially the cost of daycare/babysitters, ect is near the same amount of money as someone's salary. If so then I think someone quits their job. If you both make a ton of money and have big hard earned careers then it's a different scenario. One which I don't feel like I can answer except to say one of you may at some point decide having one parent be a full time "stay at home" might be a better scenareo for both kids and parents. Not saying it definitely will be...but it might. It depends on what you value as far as family vs work. And there is no "right" answer on that.
Now in effort to answer the question of how other couple manage...I can only speak from conversations with friends and unfortunately my answer is not gonna be full of sunshine. To me it seems that everyone I know basically goes about their lives running around like chickens without heads. There are no "date" nights, there is no "me" time, there is no "down" time, and life is generally a very stressful circle of trying to keep up. At least that's what it seems like from an outsiders perspective. Wish I could tell you I knew a couple that had seemed to figure out the whole married couple with both working full time and having kids. I just don't know such a scenario. In the end time seems to be the one factor that changes things. As the kids get older and more self sufficient the pressure releases and all those "times" start to open up. But for 7-10 years of a kid's life it seems that a parent's life is simply not their own.
posted by ljs30 at 4:41 PM on May 5, 2018 [8 favorites]
First, as far as both working full time I'd say the biggest thing to figure out is if financially the cost of daycare/babysitters, ect is near the same amount of money as someone's salary. If so then I think someone quits their job. If you both make a ton of money and have big hard earned careers then it's a different scenario. One which I don't feel like I can answer except to say one of you may at some point decide having one parent be a full time "stay at home" might be a better scenareo for both kids and parents. Not saying it definitely will be...but it might. It depends on what you value as far as family vs work. And there is no "right" answer on that.
Now in effort to answer the question of how other couple manage...I can only speak from conversations with friends and unfortunately my answer is not gonna be full of sunshine. To me it seems that everyone I know basically goes about their lives running around like chickens without heads. There are no "date" nights, there is no "me" time, there is no "down" time, and life is generally a very stressful circle of trying to keep up. At least that's what it seems like from an outsiders perspective. Wish I could tell you I knew a couple that had seemed to figure out the whole married couple with both working full time and having kids. I just don't know such a scenario. In the end time seems to be the one factor that changes things. As the kids get older and more self sufficient the pressure releases and all those "times" start to open up. But for 7-10 years of a kid's life it seems that a parent's life is simply not their own.
posted by ljs30 at 4:41 PM on May 5, 2018 [8 favorites]
We have two kids with the same age difference but a few years older. It gets easier when the second turns four. Seven is a great age for sleepovers. Your kids will have drop off playdates, etc. You'll trade with other parents.
They need a little less hands on and can start to do things like fix their own snacks. My 6 year old (and the younger of my two) will even make my lunch for work sometimes!
You never get EVERYTHING done. You just have to decide and compromise on what you can live without getting done.
My commute is over an hour. My husband's is 45 minutes. You have a leg up on us by weekly date nights We get maybe two of those a year. You're in survival mode, though. It *will* get better.
posted by zizzle at 4:42 PM on May 5, 2018 [18 favorites]
They need a little less hands on and can start to do things like fix their own snacks. My 6 year old (and the younger of my two) will even make my lunch for work sometimes!
You never get EVERYTHING done. You just have to decide and compromise on what you can live without getting done.
My commute is over an hour. My husband's is 45 minutes. You have a leg up on us by weekly date nights We get maybe two of those a year. You're in survival mode, though. It *will* get better.
posted by zizzle at 4:42 PM on May 5, 2018 [18 favorites]
The weekends and evenings are like second jobs but with screaming kids in the background.
This makes me think that you don't find your kids fun. Maybe you could define more specifically what "fun" means to you?
posted by Toddles at 4:48 PM on May 5, 2018 [11 favorites]
This makes me think that you don't find your kids fun. Maybe you could define more specifically what "fun" means to you?
posted by Toddles at 4:48 PM on May 5, 2018 [11 favorites]
I don't think you have to give up anything except the expectation (hope?) that you're missing the Secret Thing That Makes It Easier. It's as hard as you list it, and then some.
Outsource food and cleaning and errands where you can. Redefine "date time" as the quick 15 minutes you two grab in the other room on a Saturday morning while the kids watch a cartoon, or a picnic dinner on the floor in the living room after they've gone to bed. Expect a lot less, and simplify everything. "Fun" needs to be defined by where you are now.
As the kids get older, it will get easier, but for now, it's totally normal to have barely a moment to yourself and feel like you're running defense all the time.
posted by Ink-stained wretch at 4:55 PM on May 5, 2018 [10 favorites]
Outsource food and cleaning and errands where you can. Redefine "date time" as the quick 15 minutes you two grab in the other room on a Saturday morning while the kids watch a cartoon, or a picnic dinner on the floor in the living room after they've gone to bed. Expect a lot less, and simplify everything. "Fun" needs to be defined by where you are now.
As the kids get older, it will get easier, but for now, it's totally normal to have barely a moment to yourself and feel like you're running defense all the time.
posted by Ink-stained wretch at 4:55 PM on May 5, 2018 [10 favorites]
...and have time for anything else?
The dual-income parents I know don't. At least not for a number of years.
posted by aramaic at 4:55 PM on May 5, 2018 [16 favorites]
The dual-income parents I know don't. At least not for a number of years.
posted by aramaic at 4:55 PM on May 5, 2018 [16 favorites]
One of two working parents of a three year old here. Mondays are the new Friday. I love the dude and he's more fun every month but he's exhausting.
My partner and I each take a night every week where we do sole parent so the other one can do something. I use my Wednesday night off to do a college radio show. My partner sews or chills in our room on Thursdays (or sometimes gets after work drinks with friend).
posted by noloveforned at 5:05 PM on May 5, 2018 [9 favorites]
My partner and I each take a night every week where we do sole parent so the other one can do something. I use my Wednesday night off to do a college radio show. My partner sews or chills in our room on Thursdays (or sometimes gets after work drinks with friend).
posted by noloveforned at 5:05 PM on May 5, 2018 [9 favorites]
We eat out and get takeout a lot during the week. The house is messy and usually needs vacuuming (I may soon give in and hire a service). We do most errands as a family on weekends. The kids help with household chores. I order almost everything from Amazon to avoid special weekend trips to Home Depot, Target, etc. Regular grocery store 1x/week, and rotate Costco and Trader Joe's every other week. I keep strict grocery lists and meal plan. I use Stitch Fix for my clothes since I have no time to go shopping. Date nights are Netflix and cocktails after the kids go to bed.
posted by gatorae at 5:30 PM on May 5, 2018 [8 favorites]
posted by gatorae at 5:30 PM on May 5, 2018 [8 favorites]
The secret is that it will change every few years. You just have to grit your teeth for now, but it really does get easier, soon! I promise.
My kids are now teenagers but when they were little....so much coffee and late nights and feeling like it never ends. I was dropping three children off at three different places before getting to work by 9:30 then picking all 3 up by 6 and doing the whole bed bath book thing. Then doing all the grown up stuff and cleaning etc after they’ve gone to sleep (which, as we parents know does not mean the same thing as what time you put them to bed!!!).
What made a social life possible was living within a five minute walk of several close friends and inviting them over for a glass of wine or to join us for dinner. Close friends don’t care that your house is a mess and the kids are feral tonight. My husband and I tagged teamed other social activities and rarely had date nights for a while.
Now my children are big and I am a single parent. The other night I came home fromwork and my 15yo son was roasting a duck for dinner. I still order groceries online and my kids put it away while I’m still st work. I never need babysitting.
Look after each other through these exhausting years. I promise it gets easier.
posted by stellathon at 5:38 PM on May 5, 2018 [14 favorites]
My kids are now teenagers but when they were little....so much coffee and late nights and feeling like it never ends. I was dropping three children off at three different places before getting to work by 9:30 then picking all 3 up by 6 and doing the whole bed bath book thing. Then doing all the grown up stuff and cleaning etc after they’ve gone to sleep (which, as we parents know does not mean the same thing as what time you put them to bed!!!).
What made a social life possible was living within a five minute walk of several close friends and inviting them over for a glass of wine or to join us for dinner. Close friends don’t care that your house is a mess and the kids are feral tonight. My husband and I tagged teamed other social activities and rarely had date nights for a while.
Now my children are big and I am a single parent. The other night I came home fromwork and my 15yo son was roasting a duck for dinner. I still order groceries online and my kids put it away while I’m still st work. I never need babysitting.
Look after each other through these exhausting years. I promise it gets easier.
posted by stellathon at 5:38 PM on May 5, 2018 [14 favorites]
Yeah, I don't think this is abnormal. This is the reason why people who don't have kids complain that their friends who do aren't social anymore.
posted by kevinbelt at 5:39 PM on May 5, 2018 [10 favorites]
posted by kevinbelt at 5:39 PM on May 5, 2018 [10 favorites]
Nah, you’re normal. Work is now where you try to relax a bit, because at work you only have the one job. It’s important to take the opportunity to have a coffee break with work friends to keep your sanity. If you and your spouse are near enough, have a lunch date.
At home, you’re just surviving for a couple more years. It really will get better! I know it’s hard. Mine are 6 and 9, so am future you. You know how everyone says that the baby years go by so fast, blink and you’ll miss it? I feel that way now, but it’s revisionist. At the time, it seemed to last forever.
What we did for fun was to get together with other families from the day care and have family dates at someone’s messy house, parents chatting while the kids entertained each other. Much easier than going out and trying to keep track of them.
And don’t feel bad about putting on a screen while you get dinner ready, etc. We’re made to feel bad about letting kids watch TV, but it helps bring the chaos down so you don’t tear your hair out.
posted by Knowyournuts at 5:54 PM on May 5, 2018 [9 favorites]
At home, you’re just surviving for a couple more years. It really will get better! I know it’s hard. Mine are 6 and 9, so am future you. You know how everyone says that the baby years go by so fast, blink and you’ll miss it? I feel that way now, but it’s revisionist. At the time, it seemed to last forever.
What we did for fun was to get together with other families from the day care and have family dates at someone’s messy house, parents chatting while the kids entertained each other. Much easier than going out and trying to keep track of them.
And don’t feel bad about putting on a screen while you get dinner ready, etc. We’re made to feel bad about letting kids watch TV, but it helps bring the chaos down so you don’t tear your hair out.
posted by Knowyournuts at 5:54 PM on May 5, 2018 [9 favorites]
In addition to the gender point about the "someone" who earns less quitting their job, it's worth considering that this is a career hit which will hurt you down the road. Financially, it's usually better for both parents to work even if one parent's earnings go only to childcare, because when the kids are in school the parent will still be progressing in their field. Otherwise you save now, but then the stay at home parent has to try to re-enter the workforce, generally at a much lower salary. This is unfair to the almost-always-female "someone" and it's a blow to the two of you as a team.
posted by Frowner at 6:02 PM on May 5, 2018 [95 favorites]
posted by Frowner at 6:02 PM on May 5, 2018 [95 favorites]
Yeah, having little kids and commuting 90 minutes a day is super hard. Can you reduce commutes?
Having one parent work earlier or later hours can help.
Can you each cook one meal a week. Do enough for lunch leftovers and maybe part if the next meal. Then depend on premade or frozen foods for your other four dinners.
Get in a routine if chores. Know you need 15 minutes in the morning and evening and always load the dishwasher and load a load of laundry.
Make sure to spend 15 quality minutes alone with each kid a day where you are not multitasking. Each.
Build in something fun around doctor's appointments. Stop at the park for half and hour before or after.
Try to go somewhere new every week.
Being tired is normal. Try to do nothing after your kids go to bed for 30 minutes. Phone surf, read a book, watch tv and check out. But yeah I hear when your youngest is six, you are less tired. You are not a single parent and I'm not hearing about poverty or major health issues, so you have an advantage over a lot of families. Sorry but you can do this.
posted by Kalmya at 6:05 PM on May 5, 2018 [4 favorites]
Having one parent work earlier or later hours can help.
Can you each cook one meal a week. Do enough for lunch leftovers and maybe part if the next meal. Then depend on premade or frozen foods for your other four dinners.
Get in a routine if chores. Know you need 15 minutes in the morning and evening and always load the dishwasher and load a load of laundry.
Make sure to spend 15 quality minutes alone with each kid a day where you are not multitasking. Each.
Build in something fun around doctor's appointments. Stop at the park for half and hour before or after.
Try to go somewhere new every week.
Being tired is normal. Try to do nothing after your kids go to bed for 30 minutes. Phone surf, read a book, watch tv and check out. But yeah I hear when your youngest is six, you are less tired. You are not a single parent and I'm not hearing about poverty or major health issues, so you have an advantage over a lot of families. Sorry but you can do this.
posted by Kalmya at 6:05 PM on May 5, 2018 [4 favorites]
It seems like an unpopular response but expect a lot out of your kids. Children 5 and 4 were literally oyster shucking for 10 hours a day, 7 days a week. Yes, we don't want oyster shuckers but children that can carry their clothes to the laundry room (even at 2), get themselves dressed, and do things like brush their own teeth when told.
I sucked at really understanding my kids capabilities but I never let them work AGAINST my efforts. Maybe not move them forward, but they understood not to stop the family from moving forward. You HAVE to buckle up, set the table, get in, put pajamas on, leave your shoes on, eat your fill when it's time....
When my youngest was in school at a Jewish community center at 2.9 and they had swimming lessons I watched. A swim teachers with a WHOLE classroom full of kids got them to put on their bathing suits, "swim" (which most was sitting on the pool edge since she had about 15 kids) and then, put socks, underwear, pants and shirts, and shoes on wet bodies. I realized how much I was doing for my kids they they could do for themselves.
I always try to use the 10 kids idea... would I be doing this for my kid if I had 10 kids and had to feed the hogs.
I am NOT saying you are dong something wrong - but I did. My 7 year old still wanted me to punch his straw in his juice box and I still make his lunch at 10 even though my SIL's kids have all been making their lunches since first grade.
I say get your kids on your side.
AND get a housekeeper once or twice a week. You deserve it and need it.
posted by beccaj at 6:05 PM on May 5, 2018 [55 favorites]
I sucked at really understanding my kids capabilities but I never let them work AGAINST my efforts. Maybe not move them forward, but they understood not to stop the family from moving forward. You HAVE to buckle up, set the table, get in, put pajamas on, leave your shoes on, eat your fill when it's time....
When my youngest was in school at a Jewish community center at 2.9 and they had swimming lessons I watched. A swim teachers with a WHOLE classroom full of kids got them to put on their bathing suits, "swim" (which most was sitting on the pool edge since she had about 15 kids) and then, put socks, underwear, pants and shirts, and shoes on wet bodies. I realized how much I was doing for my kids they they could do for themselves.
I always try to use the 10 kids idea... would I be doing this for my kid if I had 10 kids and had to feed the hogs.
I am NOT saying you are dong something wrong - but I did. My 7 year old still wanted me to punch his straw in his juice box and I still make his lunch at 10 even though my SIL's kids have all been making their lunches since first grade.
I say get your kids on your side.
AND get a housekeeper once or twice a week. You deserve it and need it.
posted by beccaj at 6:05 PM on May 5, 2018 [55 favorites]
The worth that I got out of a couple hours of “mother’s helper” was far more than I paid. The daycare assistant brought the kids home from day care, got them in the bath and hit them in jammies while I made dinner without anyone underfoot.
I hate to say but it will get a little worse before it gets lots better. Next year you will probably have homework to deal with, and having someone else deal with that is also a godsend. It’s totally okay to pay for help *while you are in the house.*
posted by Liesl at 6:12 PM on May 5, 2018 [3 favorites]
I hate to say but it will get a little worse before it gets lots better. Next year you will probably have homework to deal with, and having someone else deal with that is also a godsend. It’s totally okay to pay for help *while you are in the house.*
posted by Liesl at 6:12 PM on May 5, 2018 [3 favorites]
It's actually impossible. Working parents don't do it all. We do way more than we should and it's never enough. Either the house is a mess, or the kids get no time with us or we eat in front of the TV or we get sick or stop having sex or get divorced or become alcoholics or never exercise or whatever combination of stressful to bad things that happen.
Cut whatever isn't essential, spend as much time with the kids and each other as you can, choose one personally sustaining thing (church, novels, cross fit, whatever), and either try to work less or just wait it out.
My two cents.
posted by latkes at 6:17 PM on May 5, 2018 [35 favorites]
Cut whatever isn't essential, spend as much time with the kids and each other as you can, choose one personally sustaining thing (church, novels, cross fit, whatever), and either try to work less or just wait it out.
My two cents.
posted by latkes at 6:17 PM on May 5, 2018 [35 favorites]
Can't do it. Instead, triage. And get up at 5:30AM to tackle some tasks.
posted by JamesBay at 6:24 PM on May 5, 2018 [1 favorite]
posted by JamesBay at 6:24 PM on May 5, 2018 [1 favorite]
Weekends are never going to be "fun" with small kids, but you can probably make them less unpleasant than they are currently. You don't say this explicitly, but are you getting any time to yourself on the weekends, beyond any date nights or whatever? The expectation ought to be that you and your wife each get a couple hours to yourself each weekend day (and that can partly overlap with stuff like grocery shopping, but it should be at least part real free time).
You also don't mention any scheduled activities for the kids. Do you have any regular things you do with them? They're both old enough to do gymnastics, swimming, dance, story time, etc, and that can be a good two hours where you 1) don't have to plan what you're doing for that part of the day and 2) have an easier time managing them (or for the older one, can hand that off entirely).
You should also relax your standards for cleaning, cooking, etc, but since you're already hiring out at least part of that, I doubt that's going to save much. But if dealing with the cleaners or the gardeners is more hassle than it's worth, feel free to cut that out for a while.
Oh, and you don't mention whether your kids are sleeping ok, but if they're not, deal with that - move up bedtime or give them melatonin or whatever you need to do - because that chews up time and emotional energy every night until it's sorted out.
posted by inkyz at 6:32 PM on May 5, 2018
You also don't mention any scheduled activities for the kids. Do you have any regular things you do with them? They're both old enough to do gymnastics, swimming, dance, story time, etc, and that can be a good two hours where you 1) don't have to plan what you're doing for that part of the day and 2) have an easier time managing them (or for the older one, can hand that off entirely).
You should also relax your standards for cleaning, cooking, etc, but since you're already hiring out at least part of that, I doubt that's going to save much. But if dealing with the cleaners or the gardeners is more hassle than it's worth, feel free to cut that out for a while.
Oh, and you don't mention whether your kids are sleeping ok, but if they're not, deal with that - move up bedtime or give them melatonin or whatever you need to do - because that chews up time and emotional energy every night until it's sorted out.
posted by inkyz at 6:32 PM on May 5, 2018
How do working parents get everything done? ...and have time for anything else?
It's about resources. If you can afford more help during the day (daycare pickup, etc) - do that. If you have family members who can jump in and watch the kids while you run errands on a weekend, do it. But even if you have those resources, you're still not going to be able to do it all. You're not going to do the things you used to enjoy to the extent that you did. Your kids will suck the joy out of you at times and you are gonna be tired. Keep your weekly date night (which is great), lower your expectations, find joy in smaller things, realize you're going to just be worn out way more than you even want, and learn to celebrate Mondays when you get to take your kids to daycare.
Kids are great. They're bundles of joys. It amazing watching them grow into little people. But you're still allowed to celebrate Monday mornings when someone else gets to watch your kids. Sure, you have to go to work, but enjoy that 45 minute commute when you don't have kids crying in the backseat because they dropped their toys into the blackhole that is the floor of your automobile.
posted by Stynxno at 6:36 PM on May 5, 2018 [2 favorites]
It's about resources. If you can afford more help during the day (daycare pickup, etc) - do that. If you have family members who can jump in and watch the kids while you run errands on a weekend, do it. But even if you have those resources, you're still not going to be able to do it all. You're not going to do the things you used to enjoy to the extent that you did. Your kids will suck the joy out of you at times and you are gonna be tired. Keep your weekly date night (which is great), lower your expectations, find joy in smaller things, realize you're going to just be worn out way more than you even want, and learn to celebrate Mondays when you get to take your kids to daycare.
Kids are great. They're bundles of joys. It amazing watching them grow into little people. But you're still allowed to celebrate Monday mornings when someone else gets to watch your kids. Sure, you have to go to work, but enjoy that 45 minute commute when you don't have kids crying in the backseat because they dropped their toys into the blackhole that is the floor of your automobile.
posted by Stynxno at 6:36 PM on May 5, 2018 [2 favorites]
I have one five year old in a similar situation (two commuting parents) and I am convinced that people with more than one child are superheroes.
I don’t think you’re doing anything wrong. Two income parenting feels very fragile (you’re always one surprise away from an upside down schedule) but one income parenting actually is more fragile, because you still get annoying surprises but you can’t as easily use money to fix them, and as others have noted the person who stays home is at a severe disadvantage when trying to re-enter the workforce later.
Things we do to make it easier: we have a cleaner come in every two weeks so we know the house won’t get too unmanageable; we have a babysitting trade with some friends who have kids; we have rituals that still feel like together time, like getting up early to work out and drink coffee before the day starts in earnest. Everything has a price though (like, getting up early means I sometimes go to bed at 8). But I don’t think I’d trade this life for any I can imagine.
posted by eirias at 6:40 PM on May 5, 2018 [2 favorites]
I don’t think you’re doing anything wrong. Two income parenting feels very fragile (you’re always one surprise away from an upside down schedule) but one income parenting actually is more fragile, because you still get annoying surprises but you can’t as easily use money to fix them, and as others have noted the person who stays home is at a severe disadvantage when trying to re-enter the workforce later.
Things we do to make it easier: we have a cleaner come in every two weeks so we know the house won’t get too unmanageable; we have a babysitting trade with some friends who have kids; we have rituals that still feel like together time, like getting up early to work out and drink coffee before the day starts in earnest. Everything has a price though (like, getting up early means I sometimes go to bed at 8). But I don’t think I’d trade this life for any I can imagine.
posted by eirias at 6:40 PM on May 5, 2018 [2 favorites]
We're two working parents with full-time jobs and an 8 month old and I think we're doing ok. But I will fully admit that we are privileged and extremely lucky to have been able to set things up the way we have.
The number one thing we did was to hire a nanny vs. send the baby to daycare. Yes, she's expensive (and we're doing it the right way with taxes and unemployment and workers' comp) but she's the difference between every morning being a mad scramble to get out the door and actually being able to enjoy a cup of coffee. She straightens out the house for us during the day and we also have cleaners come once a month. She runs a load of laundry and will do simple meal prep / actually cook a dish or two. And this is besides taking really great care of our baby. We're ok with spending money on the nanny because we do see this as an investment in our careers and sanity. Each of us can stay late at work on occasion if needed without putting it all on the other person. I was able to get a promotion only a few months after returning from maternity leave.
The other thing we did right was to make sure we're in jobs that really respect family time. My husband in fact switched out of a demanding consulting role into another one that paid a bit less because he gets much closer to a 40 hour week. My work respects the 40 hour week as well and allows me to work 1-2 days from home (I usually work one day a week from home - which allows me to knock out a lot of errands etc. and save up some sleep).
It's still quite hard, don't get me wrong, but I don't feel like we're desperate and living an unsustainable lifestyle like some people I see or hear about.
posted by peacheater at 6:49 PM on May 5, 2018 [3 favorites]
The number one thing we did was to hire a nanny vs. send the baby to daycare. Yes, she's expensive (and we're doing it the right way with taxes and unemployment and workers' comp) but she's the difference between every morning being a mad scramble to get out the door and actually being able to enjoy a cup of coffee. She straightens out the house for us during the day and we also have cleaners come once a month. She runs a load of laundry and will do simple meal prep / actually cook a dish or two. And this is besides taking really great care of our baby. We're ok with spending money on the nanny because we do see this as an investment in our careers and sanity. Each of us can stay late at work on occasion if needed without putting it all on the other person. I was able to get a promotion only a few months after returning from maternity leave.
The other thing we did right was to make sure we're in jobs that really respect family time. My husband in fact switched out of a demanding consulting role into another one that paid a bit less because he gets much closer to a 40 hour week. My work respects the 40 hour week as well and allows me to work 1-2 days from home (I usually work one day a week from home - which allows me to knock out a lot of errands etc. and save up some sleep).
It's still quite hard, don't get me wrong, but I don't feel like we're desperate and living an unsustainable lifestyle like some people I see or hear about.
posted by peacheater at 6:49 PM on May 5, 2018 [3 favorites]
Have a 6 and 3 year old. It doesn't seem like work to me. I don't know. We both commute 30 minutes. We both cook and clean. It seems like what I signed up for.
I have noticed my wife being frazzled a bunch though, but it's of her own making. She took on Girl Scouts and being on the school PTO organization.
My wife will go out of her way to make a lot of custom multi step meals and will get really bogged down in that. I'm fine with making whatever meals and doing that. Still has all the protein carbs and all that, but I'm not making beef wellington. I make real meals to fit their good diet. She makes ridiculous reastaurant style meals, but I'm glad she does because the kids get to taste that.
My wife also feels a need to entertain the children all the time. I mostly let them do what they do. Want to play legos, great. Want to put puzzles together, great. Want to make bubbles in the front yard, great. Want to pick up rocks in a bucket, knock yourself out. These are all things that kids want to do anyway, and you don't have to structure it. I think my wife is making work when none needs to be done in this area.
My experience is that once you get both potty trained, you're out. You are out of the woods. You have fully functioning little PEOPLE. You are still in the woods. You got a year or so and you'll be fine.
posted by sanka at 7:05 PM on May 5, 2018 [3 favorites]
I have noticed my wife being frazzled a bunch though, but it's of her own making. She took on Girl Scouts and being on the school PTO organization.
My wife will go out of her way to make a lot of custom multi step meals and will get really bogged down in that. I'm fine with making whatever meals and doing that. Still has all the protein carbs and all that, but I'm not making beef wellington. I make real meals to fit their good diet. She makes ridiculous reastaurant style meals, but I'm glad she does because the kids get to taste that.
My wife also feels a need to entertain the children all the time. I mostly let them do what they do. Want to play legos, great. Want to put puzzles together, great. Want to make bubbles in the front yard, great. Want to pick up rocks in a bucket, knock yourself out. These are all things that kids want to do anyway, and you don't have to structure it. I think my wife is making work when none needs to be done in this area.
My experience is that once you get both potty trained, you're out. You are out of the woods. You have fully functioning little PEOPLE. You are still in the woods. You got a year or so and you'll be fine.
posted by sanka at 7:05 PM on May 5, 2018 [3 favorites]
We get groceries delivered, and have a cleaner every other week. It was really hard when the kids were toddlers, it’s easier now. When I went back to work after may leave I was clearing $35 a week after childcare costs. But 7 years later I have a real career, and I’m glad I didn’t give that up. Also, i have a group of parents I could complain with, even if just by text.
posted by Valancy Rachel at 7:09 PM on May 5, 2018 [2 favorites]
posted by Valancy Rachel at 7:09 PM on May 5, 2018 [2 favorites]
We are dual income with one toddler so far, but re: one of you quitting, if the evenings and weekends aren’t fun right now, having the lower income parent stay home still won’t be fun for them. It will be like the weekend every day, but probably with added resentment from the working parent about how the house isn’t perfect and dinner isn’t ready yet etc. We hire more help on the weekends - a stable of babysitters/ mothers helpers from urbansitter that are responsible for the kid for 4-5 hours so we can get chores done or relax or get out of the house. It’s really helping. If you have the money, throw money at the problem. Otherwise, like another poster said, get your kids to help more seems good? I’m interested in that strategy.
posted by permiechickie at 7:28 PM on May 5, 2018 [6 favorites]
posted by permiechickie at 7:28 PM on May 5, 2018 [6 favorites]
I tried staying home with the kid (we bought a house in a bad neighborhood for nearly nothing and cut our expenses to the bone). We went to a credit counselor about a year and a half into that, and after we gave him all our bills and credit card balances, expecting to get a budget, he told us at the next meeting, "You're not making enough money." I went back to work full time and the spouse got a better job, and things worked out.
That said, I also went back to school and got certified as a teacher so I was on the same schedule as the child (got derailed because it was graduate school and got a doctorate while I was at it, but whatever), and we avoided all the expenses that people tell you are necessary like home improvements and new cars. I also did not do any housework to speak of, nor did I hire someone.
posted by Peach at 7:32 PM on May 5, 2018 [1 favorite]
That said, I also went back to school and got certified as a teacher so I was on the same schedule as the child (got derailed because it was graduate school and got a doctorate while I was at it, but whatever), and we avoided all the expenses that people tell you are necessary like home improvements and new cars. I also did not do any housework to speak of, nor did I hire someone.
posted by Peach at 7:32 PM on May 5, 2018 [1 favorite]
Please read "How to Not Hate Your Husband After Kids" [link is to my summary of the book on the blue] - it isn't that your husband is the problem, but the books has super ideas about organizing your household time so that you can be happier.
But yeah, as others have said, it is a bit about outsourcing [cleaner, more childcare], a bit about compromising [eating more frozen or ready made food than you'd like], a bit about your kids' ages because it gets far easier as they get older, and a lot about being efficient AF. Your commutes sound much longer than I'd be willing to tolerate, personally.
posted by k8t at 7:33 PM on May 5, 2018 [6 favorites]
But yeah, as others have said, it is a bit about outsourcing [cleaner, more childcare], a bit about compromising [eating more frozen or ready made food than you'd like], a bit about your kids' ages because it gets far easier as they get older, and a lot about being efficient AF. Your commutes sound much longer than I'd be willing to tolerate, personally.
posted by k8t at 7:33 PM on May 5, 2018 [6 favorites]
1. I give fewer fucks about completing household chores. As long as there are no Superfund sites in my house, there's food in the kitchen and we've all got reasonably clean clothes, that is good enough. If we have time to do more, great, but it's optional.
2. Throw money at things when possible.
3. Get all children to the age of six. I only have one kid, and he's about to turn six this summer and I've occasionally found myself actually sort of at loose ends on the weekend, even somewhat bored on occasion. Parenting has gotten suddenly and remarkably less intense over the past 4 or so months.
4. All that tutting about screens? Forget you ever heard any of it and use your best judgement based on what you know about your unique children.
posted by soren_lorensen at 7:51 PM on May 5, 2018 [6 favorites]
2. Throw money at things when possible.
3. Get all children to the age of six. I only have one kid, and he's about to turn six this summer and I've occasionally found myself actually sort of at loose ends on the weekend, even somewhat bored on occasion. Parenting has gotten suddenly and remarkably less intense over the past 4 or so months.
4. All that tutting about screens? Forget you ever heard any of it and use your best judgement based on what you know about your unique children.
posted by soren_lorensen at 7:51 PM on May 5, 2018 [6 favorites]
I evangelize this to all parents of small children: I hired a babysitter to come in on early weekend mornings. I think I had her 6-9 AM on Saturdays and Sundays. I actually had quite a few candidates interviewing for the job when I advertised it, maybe because it was time that wouldn't interfere with other weekend activities for them, and I paid a premium.
Anyway, yeah, so she came at 6am, which was right about when my toddler was waking up. She'd let herself in, get the kid breakfast, take her to the park, then give her a bath, all while my husband and I were sleeping in. At 9 am, we woke up to a fed, outside-exercised, bathed kiddo who was ready to relax while we started our chill day.
(Also see if you can cut down your commute because oh my god.)
posted by fingersandtoes at 7:51 PM on May 5, 2018 [27 favorites]
Anyway, yeah, so she came at 6am, which was right about when my toddler was waking up. She'd let herself in, get the kid breakfast, take her to the park, then give her a bath, all while my husband and I were sleeping in. At 9 am, we woke up to a fed, outside-exercised, bathed kiddo who was ready to relax while we started our chill day.
(Also see if you can cut down your commute because oh my god.)
posted by fingersandtoes at 7:51 PM on May 5, 2018 [27 favorites]
Returning to add one more thing: I just came back from my 50th high school reunion. The mom who stayed home with her kids and didn't go back until they were in their teens told me resignedly that she gets half her husband's Social Security and won't be able to bring her own up appreciably before she has to retire. Y'all think you're never going to retire; you should SEE what happens to even otherwise healthy people with lots of privilege when life still happens to them. One of my other classmates had just recovered from having her ankle replaced when she got breast cancer.
Keep both jobs.
posted by Peach at 7:53 PM on May 5, 2018 [13 favorites]
Keep both jobs.
posted by Peach at 7:53 PM on May 5, 2018 [13 favorites]
Spouse and I have slightly offset schedules: he leaves earlier in the am, and picks up kid from school. I do am prep and daycare (now school) dropoff.
Also, when our kid was younger, we'd take turns getting up with her on the weekend, so one of us would get to sleep in one weekend day, though fingersandtoes' suggestion is quite brilliant.
Get the kids involved in chores; at that age, they're excited about helping around the house.
posted by mogget at 7:58 PM on May 5, 2018 [3 favorites]
Also, when our kid was younger, we'd take turns getting up with her on the weekend, so one of us would get to sleep in one weekend day, though fingersandtoes' suggestion is quite brilliant.
Get the kids involved in chores; at that age, they're excited about helping around the house.
posted by mogget at 7:58 PM on May 5, 2018 [3 favorites]
I'm going to add, if you can outsource with hired help as other folks have said, then do that. But if you're like us and you're dual income out of necessity rather than desire and the dual income doesn't allow for additional help yet you also can't live off one income, you just find a way. That's all it is.
Husband and I for a few years took turns on who went out. We each got a weekend afternoon or evening after work. We'd watch movies together after the kids went to bed, though less frequently than you'd think because exhaustion. The years from about our youngest turning one to when she turned four were by far the hardest so far. So we just learned to live with dishes unwashed until we could get to it. We learned to live with laundry not getting washed until we could get to it. We just essentially muddled through, but we also made a choice to go to the playground rather than clean, to read the kids books rather than dust, etc. My husband got really good at turning grocery shopping into such an adventure that the kids for about a year would always *want* to go with him, which give me an hour to clean up around the house some.
It was chaos -- the bad kind of chaos in some ways, but it was easier to let some things go for the sake of sanity. Do the essentials, and then do what makes you happy. But really try to steal the happy moments when you can and take it all in, because it's those that sustain you through rest of it.
posted by zizzle at 8:04 PM on May 5, 2018 [8 favorites]
Husband and I for a few years took turns on who went out. We each got a weekend afternoon or evening after work. We'd watch movies together after the kids went to bed, though less frequently than you'd think because exhaustion. The years from about our youngest turning one to when she turned four were by far the hardest so far. So we just learned to live with dishes unwashed until we could get to it. We learned to live with laundry not getting washed until we could get to it. We just essentially muddled through, but we also made a choice to go to the playground rather than clean, to read the kids books rather than dust, etc. My husband got really good at turning grocery shopping into such an adventure that the kids for about a year would always *want* to go with him, which give me an hour to clean up around the house some.
It was chaos -- the bad kind of chaos in some ways, but it was easier to let some things go for the sake of sanity. Do the essentials, and then do what makes you happy. But really try to steal the happy moments when you can and take it all in, because it's those that sustain you through rest of it.
posted by zizzle at 8:04 PM on May 5, 2018 [8 favorites]
I know a fair number of people who got a lot of out All Joy and No Fun. It's not parenting or life advice, it's more anthropology/perspective, but it might make you feel better about where you are.
posted by mrmurbles at 8:27 PM on May 5, 2018 [1 favorite]
posted by mrmurbles at 8:27 PM on May 5, 2018 [1 favorite]
We are working parents with two kids. No date nights, so you have us beat there, but an idea if you can't throw money at things (we can't):
A big part of the stress of these years is always feeling at the beck-and-call of constant and sometimes draining demands. So my SO and I have an explicit "on-call" feature. It's great when one parent can take them out and the other does chores or gets to relax, but even that hour here and there can seem not enough. So we take turns being the go-to when someone needs water or a book or to settle a squabble. The other parent is around to engage as they like and for emergencies, but can read their own book or play a game or just relax a bit. Knowing that you GET to spend time with family but aren't on a hook waiting for the next red siren just takes off SO much mental stress. I can't overstate how much it helps, as small as it seems.
Bonus: in heterosexual families, mom is usually the one on-call constantly as a default. Making this a known and verbal structure creates two really engaged parents and spreads the emotional labor and house knowledge around so much more.
posted by hapaxes.legomenon at 10:03 PM on May 5, 2018 [25 favorites]
A big part of the stress of these years is always feeling at the beck-and-call of constant and sometimes draining demands. So my SO and I have an explicit "on-call" feature. It's great when one parent can take them out and the other does chores or gets to relax, but even that hour here and there can seem not enough. So we take turns being the go-to when someone needs water or a book or to settle a squabble. The other parent is around to engage as they like and for emergencies, but can read their own book or play a game or just relax a bit. Knowing that you GET to spend time with family but aren't on a hook waiting for the next red siren just takes off SO much mental stress. I can't overstate how much it helps, as small as it seems.
Bonus: in heterosexual families, mom is usually the one on-call constantly as a default. Making this a known and verbal structure creates two really engaged parents and spreads the emotional labor and house knowledge around so much more.
posted by hapaxes.legomenon at 10:03 PM on May 5, 2018 [25 favorites]
Mine are 2 and 5 as well, and both my husband and I work full-time outside the home. I feel ya.
We don't have much time, but what time we do have we try not to spend any time doing stuff we hate. So: our cooking is entirely outsourced. We have biweekly cleaners. Someone walks our dogs. Someone else picks up their poop from the yard. I buy a lot of stuff on Amazon. I still shop for groceries in person, but it's because the grocery store we use right now shares a parking lot with daycare; once that is no longer the case, I will spend a lot more money on Instacart too. In short, we use a huge amount of our dual-income money to grease the wheels as much as we can. I used to think this was an insanely extravagant lifestyle, but at this point, we are cash rich and time poor, and I don't feel even a little guilt about spreading that cash around my community in exchange for more time to play with my kids.
Oh, and my commute is 10 minutes. Can you possibly move any closer to work? Spending that much time in the car every day is a huge amount of your problem.
posted by potrzebie at 10:29 PM on May 5, 2018 [2 favorites]
We don't have much time, but what time we do have we try not to spend any time doing stuff we hate. So: our cooking is entirely outsourced. We have biweekly cleaners. Someone walks our dogs. Someone else picks up their poop from the yard. I buy a lot of stuff on Amazon. I still shop for groceries in person, but it's because the grocery store we use right now shares a parking lot with daycare; once that is no longer the case, I will spend a lot more money on Instacart too. In short, we use a huge amount of our dual-income money to grease the wheels as much as we can. I used to think this was an insanely extravagant lifestyle, but at this point, we are cash rich and time poor, and I don't feel even a little guilt about spreading that cash around my community in exchange for more time to play with my kids.
Oh, and my commute is 10 minutes. Can you possibly move any closer to work? Spending that much time in the car every day is a huge amount of your problem.
posted by potrzebie at 10:29 PM on May 5, 2018 [2 favorites]
Just wanted to chime in and see if you can do whatever is possible for both of you to continue to hang onto your jobs, unless you're prepared to have the dynamic of your marriage shift drastically - and, unless you're prepared to be the one who gives up your job and are not only willing, but eager to do so.
I've seen this happen with age-mates and those slightly older - the "lower-earning" partner gives up their job "for a few years" just to "make things easier." And it is easier - for everyone else, for a short term. The work gets done more smoothly, the children have a dedicated parent who able to focus on them more fully during the short-term - but the seeds of inequality and resentment are sown. As noted above, the partner who is working outside the home starts to resent the partner who is at home for not doing more - but, also, the partner who is no longer working also starts to resent their partner, and, sometimes, more perniciously, the children. Their partner still has a reasonable facsimile of their old life and identity, but the stay-at-home partner doesn't, not anymore.
Honestly, even if it seems more extravagant, if both partners want to keep working, it's a much better idea to throw money at childcare and household chores, including cooking, takeout, food delivery, cleaning services or whatever, until the kids are a little older and things calm down a bit. Yes, it's expensive, but damages to marriages, careers, and self-esteem can last a lifetime. Longer, if the children feel that their parents resent them.
posted by dancing_angel at 10:55 PM on May 5, 2018 [11 favorites]
I've seen this happen with age-mates and those slightly older - the "lower-earning" partner gives up their job "for a few years" just to "make things easier." And it is easier - for everyone else, for a short term. The work gets done more smoothly, the children have a dedicated parent who able to focus on them more fully during the short-term - but the seeds of inequality and resentment are sown. As noted above, the partner who is working outside the home starts to resent the partner who is at home for not doing more - but, also, the partner who is no longer working also starts to resent their partner, and, sometimes, more perniciously, the children. Their partner still has a reasonable facsimile of their old life and identity, but the stay-at-home partner doesn't, not anymore.
Honestly, even if it seems more extravagant, if both partners want to keep working, it's a much better idea to throw money at childcare and household chores, including cooking, takeout, food delivery, cleaning services or whatever, until the kids are a little older and things calm down a bit. Yes, it's expensive, but damages to marriages, careers, and self-esteem can last a lifetime. Longer, if the children feel that their parents resent them.
posted by dancing_angel at 10:55 PM on May 5, 2018 [11 favorites]
I found that going very slightly part-time made a huge difference. I finish a couple of hours early one day a week. Obviously this was a pay cut but only a very small one. I have time to get the odd job done on the way home, then collect kids, cook dinner and while they're eating I can make a start on a few other jobs. This gives me time to play with my kids after dinner as well.
posted by chr at 12:27 AM on May 6, 2018
posted by chr at 12:27 AM on May 6, 2018
we’re exhausted and have little time and energy for fun
You know all these quotes about enjoying the journey? Well, I think you should change your perspective so that going home to your family is fun, so that looking after your kids is the fun part of the week, so that cooking and having dinner together is fun, etc, rather than think of them as chores whereas you’re missing recreational activities that are supposedly fun.
And I agree with Sanka.
posted by Kwadeng at 2:09 AM on May 6, 2018 [6 favorites]
You know all these quotes about enjoying the journey? Well, I think you should change your perspective so that going home to your family is fun, so that looking after your kids is the fun part of the week, so that cooking and having dinner together is fun, etc, rather than think of them as chores whereas you’re missing recreational activities that are supposedly fun.
And I agree with Sanka.
posted by Kwadeng at 2:09 AM on May 6, 2018 [6 favorites]
How do other couples in this situation manage?
By reframing your thinking. As the only parent who raised three kids and had a full-time career, my answer is you change your expectations. What you describe most definitely sounds stressful and not fun at all, but it's because you seem to think the fun things happen once you're done with all the kid/house stuff. That's where you're wrong.
As a family, the endless, awful STUFF that needs to get done is your life. It's everything. It IS the fun stuff and as long as you perceive the haircuts and shopping and school visits as awful things that interfere with funtime, this will never get better. It's not like once you tick the boring things off the list, then real life can happen.
People who are saying once they get older it gets easier, I gotta disagree. It doesn't get easier; it gets different. Your kids need you for other things. For soccer, lacrosse, gymnastics, play rehearsal, SAT practice, jobs, homework help, social issues, orthodontics, etc.
And if your kids are screaming in the background all weekend, then something's wrong. Try to incorporate fun things with things that "need" to be done. Housecleaning dance party then bike ride to the library, then the farmer's market. Life with kids is as high-pressured and stressful as you allow it to be. I think you'd be well-served to stop thinking of time with your kids as something you need to get through and instead consider how to act as a family that just does stuff together while getting stuff done.
posted by yes I said yes I will Yes at 4:53 AM on May 6, 2018 [27 favorites]
By reframing your thinking. As the only parent who raised three kids and had a full-time career, my answer is you change your expectations. What you describe most definitely sounds stressful and not fun at all, but it's because you seem to think the fun things happen once you're done with all the kid/house stuff. That's where you're wrong.
As a family, the endless, awful STUFF that needs to get done is your life. It's everything. It IS the fun stuff and as long as you perceive the haircuts and shopping and school visits as awful things that interfere with funtime, this will never get better. It's not like once you tick the boring things off the list, then real life can happen.
People who are saying once they get older it gets easier, I gotta disagree. It doesn't get easier; it gets different. Your kids need you for other things. For soccer, lacrosse, gymnastics, play rehearsal, SAT practice, jobs, homework help, social issues, orthodontics, etc.
And if your kids are screaming in the background all weekend, then something's wrong. Try to incorporate fun things with things that "need" to be done. Housecleaning dance party then bike ride to the library, then the farmer's market. Life with kids is as high-pressured and stressful as you allow it to be. I think you'd be well-served to stop thinking of time with your kids as something you need to get through and instead consider how to act as a family that just does stuff together while getting stuff done.
posted by yes I said yes I will Yes at 4:53 AM on May 6, 2018 [27 favorites]
Mine are 6, 3, and 1. Another parent recently told me that "I admire the way you've lowered your standards". Triage, don't get caught up in today's parenting norms, outsource... and keep lowering your standards.
posted by youchirren at 5:01 AM on May 6, 2018 [3 favorites]
posted by youchirren at 5:01 AM on May 6, 2018 [3 favorites]
Consider that the work changes but doesn't go away as they get older. (Maybe when they have driver's licenses? I'm not there yet.)
I'm ten years past you with a 15 and 12 year olds. While the day-to-day hands-on chores of washing hair and tying shoelaces are long gone, there is still an incredible amount of "work" (or parenting). While activity/commitment levels are high, mine are not the most-scheduled kids on the block. Driving alone can take hours a day. I just got back from picking up one from orchestra trip this morning before 7 AM on Sunday. The other had musical practice at 7:30 AM yesterday morning.
This week alone there are 3 sports games, 2 musical performances, 1 chorus concert, one doctor's appointment - at a minimum, each of these takes 2 car trips, thankfully we are within a few miles of all the locations including the schools though 2 of the sports games are over an hour away with traffic. Homework to monitor (yes), breakfasts to make, lunches to pack, snacks to send, baked goods to donate (or you could be the working parents that don't donate, I understand).
Yesterday, I directed an 11 page job application and negotiated a volunteer plan to meet commitments for the school year and summer. Today includes clothes shopping for the warmer weather, food shopping for bake sale donations and playdate for 12 year old to make baked goods for sale.
This doesn't count part-time consulting work, contractor arriving to start tear-down of bathroom tomorrow, air and hotel for family summer wedding deadline to book today!, healthy dinner (or not healthy still means some effort to decide where takeout comes from or who manages the outsourcing), house maintenance, laundry, and whatever remains for personal goals.
Oh! and summer. Teens can't be left alone all summer to do nothing but xbox. Researching and signing up for summer activities is a standalone project! Lots of driving in the summer, not just during school hours. Vacation planning.
(Just in case there are gender/sex considerations, consider taking a look at these gems:
https://www.metafilter.com/165897/How-Not-to-Hate-Your-Husband-After-Kids
https://www.metafilter.com/151267/Wheres-My-Cut-On-Unpaid-Emotional-Labor )
I gotta go now, someone forgot to take out the garbage last week even though reminded and I have to figure out where to go with all this wet cardboard before the neighbors vote us out.
posted by RoadScholar at 5:06 AM on May 6, 2018 [6 favorites]
I'm ten years past you with a 15 and 12 year olds. While the day-to-day hands-on chores of washing hair and tying shoelaces are long gone, there is still an incredible amount of "work" (or parenting). While activity/commitment levels are high, mine are not the most-scheduled kids on the block. Driving alone can take hours a day. I just got back from picking up one from orchestra trip this morning before 7 AM on Sunday. The other had musical practice at 7:30 AM yesterday morning.
This week alone there are 3 sports games, 2 musical performances, 1 chorus concert, one doctor's appointment - at a minimum, each of these takes 2 car trips, thankfully we are within a few miles of all the locations including the schools though 2 of the sports games are over an hour away with traffic. Homework to monitor (yes), breakfasts to make, lunches to pack, snacks to send, baked goods to donate (or you could be the working parents that don't donate, I understand).
Yesterday, I directed an 11 page job application and negotiated a volunteer plan to meet commitments for the school year and summer. Today includes clothes shopping for the warmer weather, food shopping for bake sale donations and playdate for 12 year old to make baked goods for sale.
This doesn't count part-time consulting work, contractor arriving to start tear-down of bathroom tomorrow, air and hotel for family summer wedding deadline to book today!, healthy dinner (or not healthy still means some effort to decide where takeout comes from or who manages the outsourcing), house maintenance, laundry, and whatever remains for personal goals.
Oh! and summer. Teens can't be left alone all summer to do nothing but xbox. Researching and signing up for summer activities is a standalone project! Lots of driving in the summer, not just during school hours. Vacation planning.
(Just in case there are gender/sex considerations, consider taking a look at these gems:
https://www.metafilter.com/165897/How-Not-to-Hate-Your-Husband-After-Kids
https://www.metafilter.com/151267/Wheres-My-Cut-On-Unpaid-Emotional-Labor )
I gotta go now, someone forgot to take out the garbage last week even though reminded and I have to figure out where to go with all this wet cardboard before the neighbors vote us out.
posted by RoadScholar at 5:06 AM on May 6, 2018 [6 favorites]
Yes, to share my experience in this thread – it definitely gets different, and the weekends get easier. But the need for attention at home does not change. I actually stayed in the high-powered job with the commute until my kids were 11 and six. At that point, it became clear that they would benefit from a parent home after school, not just a caring adult, to deal with things like motivation for homework, social issues, etc.
Because I had stayed in my higher powered job and saved, I was able to take on a new full-time job but without the commute, for less pay when we got out of the heavy daycare years. It has been a game changer for our family, but I feel very lucky. My MIL also moved in which has been a big help in many ways, but again - for us and our particular kids (my eldest is a sensitive guy) it hasn’t entirely let up. She totally can watch them but she just lets them play video games no matter our rules so...we had to adjust our expectations a bit. The lesson here is be open to other options but it doesn’t have to be job vs. No job.
I will admit that the men posting “it’s not that hard!” In this thread have made my jaw clench, because they are not the ones that get eye rolls from the teachers when you forget Pink Shirt Day or whatever it is. (Dear OP: wait until you discover what the schools think parents should be doing!) BUT they are on to something which is...prioritize joy. I am about to muck out a 3-year-neglected backyard with, yes, the labour of my kids at my disposal.:) we made the choice to let it go in order to play at the beach and that was right for us. Other tips:
- game changer for our house was a commitment to decluttering together and we tidy up as a team, 5 (just 5) minutes in the morning and 30 min on weekends, from when my kids could toddle
- Scrambled eggs, frozen peas, toast, and a salad is a balanced meal! We also eat the same things over and over and have perfected the speed of preparation for those things and reduced cognitive load, on about a 3 week cycle.
- our family does a sport together which has been lovely, highly recommend in a few years
- love the “on call” thing above. From when the kids were small my husband and I gave each other one night “off” a week to not rush home, pursue self interest. It also forced us to each be able to handle bedtimes alone which was good
- getting your kids to help is good but there is a start up period where it is /harder/ so pick your times
- agreed some of this is a mind shift so that mopping the floor is podcast time! Not I hate this dirt time
posted by warriorqueen at 7:21 AM on May 6, 2018 [11 favorites]
Because I had stayed in my higher powered job and saved, I was able to take on a new full-time job but without the commute, for less pay when we got out of the heavy daycare years. It has been a game changer for our family, but I feel very lucky. My MIL also moved in which has been a big help in many ways, but again - for us and our particular kids (my eldest is a sensitive guy) it hasn’t entirely let up. She totally can watch them but she just lets them play video games no matter our rules so...we had to adjust our expectations a bit. The lesson here is be open to other options but it doesn’t have to be job vs. No job.
I will admit that the men posting “it’s not that hard!” In this thread have made my jaw clench, because they are not the ones that get eye rolls from the teachers when you forget Pink Shirt Day or whatever it is. (Dear OP: wait until you discover what the schools think parents should be doing!) BUT they are on to something which is...prioritize joy. I am about to muck out a 3-year-neglected backyard with, yes, the labour of my kids at my disposal.:) we made the choice to let it go in order to play at the beach and that was right for us. Other tips:
- game changer for our house was a commitment to decluttering together and we tidy up as a team, 5 (just 5) minutes in the morning and 30 min on weekends, from when my kids could toddle
- Scrambled eggs, frozen peas, toast, and a salad is a balanced meal! We also eat the same things over and over and have perfected the speed of preparation for those things and reduced cognitive load, on about a 3 week cycle.
- our family does a sport together which has been lovely, highly recommend in a few years
- love the “on call” thing above. From when the kids were small my husband and I gave each other one night “off” a week to not rush home, pursue self interest. It also forced us to each be able to handle bedtimes alone which was good
- getting your kids to help is good but there is a start up period where it is /harder/ so pick your times
- agreed some of this is a mind shift so that mopping the floor is podcast time! Not I hate this dirt time
posted by warriorqueen at 7:21 AM on May 6, 2018 [11 favorites]
Addendum: I just spoke to my husband about your post and he reminded me that when our kids were similarly aged (they are further apart) we rigged our bikes so we could bike as a family and that made a big difference on weekends - out a child in a trailer, or up on a third wheel, and we could do all kinds of picnics where the adults got biking time. We have trails near our house but...it reminded me that we worked to find a regular weekend Thing that was fun for everyone. It could be swimming or a museum membership where there’s a kids area or whatever. Hang in there.
posted by warriorqueen at 7:50 AM on May 6, 2018 [3 favorites]
posted by warriorqueen at 7:50 AM on May 6, 2018 [3 favorites]
Order as much as you can online instead of wasting time going to stores. Buy non-perishable groceries from Boxed and have other groceries delivered. If possible for either of you, work from home a few days a week, thus eliminating the commute and allowing you to get a few things done (like laundry) while working or on your lunch break. Outsource whatever you can afford to... A friend of mine has someone who does their laundry and puts it away. Get take-out for dinner a few nights a week.
posted by amro at 10:37 AM on May 6, 2018
posted by amro at 10:37 AM on May 6, 2018
I have noticed my wife being frazzled a bunch though, but it's of her own making. She took on Girl Scouts and being on the school PTO organization.
My wife will go out of her way to make a lot of custom multi step meals and will get really bogged down in that. I'm fine with making whatever meals and doing that. Still has all the protein carbs and all that, but I'm not making beef wellington. I make real meals to fit their good diet. She makes ridiculous reastaurant style meals, but I'm glad she does because the kids get to taste that.
My wife also feels a need to entertain the children all the time. I mostly let them do what they do. Want to play legos, great. Want to put puzzles together, great. Want to make bubbles in the front yard, great. Want to pick up rocks in a bucket, knock yourself out. These are all things that kids want to do anyway, and you don't have to structure it. I think my wife is making work when none needs to be done in this area.
I want to reply to this comment, because I think it really gets to the heart of why so many parents of young children struggle.
I grew up as the oldest child in a large family. My mom did virtually all of the household work: cooking, cleaning, laundry, household activities, etc. Because my dad wasn't a part of the "daily grind" events, we viewed time with him as being fun and exciting. When mom was gone, it meant pizza, going out to eat and movies galore. Dishes were done when she returned home (typically by her). As I began getting older, however, I began to notice the unfairness of this particular dynamic. The things that my mom did (driving us to events, preparing healthy meals) - these were important things, critical for the emotional and physical development of children.
Now, as an adult, I have terminology to describe that dynamic. My mom was almost exclusively responsible for every aspect of emotional labor that took place in our home. How we were feeling, what we needed for school, ensuring that we were well-rounded individuals, making sure we had presents for birthday parties. My dad was a positive, friendly force, but he did not take on those tasks - this meant that he didn't have the high levels of emotional exhaustion that my mom did. Of course, this doesn't mean that he never "helped out" - it just means that he wasn't a true co-captain when it came to the daily affairs of running a family. He has never truly understood the overwhelming effort and energy that entails.
I frequently see men who have this attitude: "Well, if she didn't take on so much, things would be easier for her." It's important to realize, that for most families, raising children means that at least one partner must do this labor. A friend of mine has three young children (they are all under the age of five). When I visited her last year, she was so exhausted that she could barely keep her eyes open over a cup of tea after she put the kids to bed. Although her husband spent most of my visit relaxing on the couch or tinkering in the garage, she consistently heralded him for the small tasks that he completed: changing a diaper, picking up a crying child, or doing the dishes. She said, "I'm so lucky to have him - he does everything I ask him to do without complaining."
This energy, this effort, is a full time job. It requires a high level of organization and involves a dynamic that is far from equitable. The real tragedy is, however, that the partner who is doing less often blames the other partner for "doing too much" or "refusing to take a break." While there can be some element of truth to this, what is really missing is a balanced approach to running a household - an equitable division of physical and emotional labor.
To the OP: it does get better. Please know that your five year old is old enough to begin helping out. Grocery shopping got easier for our family when we gamified the experience, turning on music when we arrived home and tossing each other heads of lettuce and boxes of cereal. While I'm reading to our daughter before bed, my husband is doing dishes and preparing a snack and drink for us to enjoy after she's sleeping. Those evening hours spent cuddling my kiddo and holding my husband's hand in front of the television are the sweetest moments of my otherwise chaotic day.
posted by WaspEnterprises at 11:07 AM on May 6, 2018 [72 favorites]
My wife will go out of her way to make a lot of custom multi step meals and will get really bogged down in that. I'm fine with making whatever meals and doing that. Still has all the protein carbs and all that, but I'm not making beef wellington. I make real meals to fit their good diet. She makes ridiculous reastaurant style meals, but I'm glad she does because the kids get to taste that.
My wife also feels a need to entertain the children all the time. I mostly let them do what they do. Want to play legos, great. Want to put puzzles together, great. Want to make bubbles in the front yard, great. Want to pick up rocks in a bucket, knock yourself out. These are all things that kids want to do anyway, and you don't have to structure it. I think my wife is making work when none needs to be done in this area.
I want to reply to this comment, because I think it really gets to the heart of why so many parents of young children struggle.
I grew up as the oldest child in a large family. My mom did virtually all of the household work: cooking, cleaning, laundry, household activities, etc. Because my dad wasn't a part of the "daily grind" events, we viewed time with him as being fun and exciting. When mom was gone, it meant pizza, going out to eat and movies galore. Dishes were done when she returned home (typically by her). As I began getting older, however, I began to notice the unfairness of this particular dynamic. The things that my mom did (driving us to events, preparing healthy meals) - these were important things, critical for the emotional and physical development of children.
Now, as an adult, I have terminology to describe that dynamic. My mom was almost exclusively responsible for every aspect of emotional labor that took place in our home. How we were feeling, what we needed for school, ensuring that we were well-rounded individuals, making sure we had presents for birthday parties. My dad was a positive, friendly force, but he did not take on those tasks - this meant that he didn't have the high levels of emotional exhaustion that my mom did. Of course, this doesn't mean that he never "helped out" - it just means that he wasn't a true co-captain when it came to the daily affairs of running a family. He has never truly understood the overwhelming effort and energy that entails.
I frequently see men who have this attitude: "Well, if she didn't take on so much, things would be easier for her." It's important to realize, that for most families, raising children means that at least one partner must do this labor. A friend of mine has three young children (they are all under the age of five). When I visited her last year, she was so exhausted that she could barely keep her eyes open over a cup of tea after she put the kids to bed. Although her husband spent most of my visit relaxing on the couch or tinkering in the garage, she consistently heralded him for the small tasks that he completed: changing a diaper, picking up a crying child, or doing the dishes. She said, "I'm so lucky to have him - he does everything I ask him to do without complaining."
This energy, this effort, is a full time job. It requires a high level of organization and involves a dynamic that is far from equitable. The real tragedy is, however, that the partner who is doing less often blames the other partner for "doing too much" or "refusing to take a break." While there can be some element of truth to this, what is really missing is a balanced approach to running a household - an equitable division of physical and emotional labor.
To the OP: it does get better. Please know that your five year old is old enough to begin helping out. Grocery shopping got easier for our family when we gamified the experience, turning on music when we arrived home and tossing each other heads of lettuce and boxes of cereal. While I'm reading to our daughter before bed, my husband is doing dishes and preparing a snack and drink for us to enjoy after she's sleeping. Those evening hours spent cuddling my kiddo and holding my husband's hand in front of the television are the sweetest moments of my otherwise chaotic day.
posted by WaspEnterprises at 11:07 AM on May 6, 2018 [72 favorites]
If you can't afford the delivery markup, many grocery stores now offer a pickup service for a smaller fee and it has been a game-changer for me. You shop online, and it might still take about as long, but you don't have to go into the store and be overwhelmed by 70 aisles of stuff and impulse buy a bunch of junk because you're exhausted. You don't have to figure out why the hell the almonds aren't with all the other nuts and where they went. They put the bags in your trunk for you. You can shop online all at once or throughout the week as you have time. It's glorious.
posted by nakedmolerats at 6:41 PM on May 6, 2018
posted by nakedmolerats at 6:41 PM on May 6, 2018
People are talking about ways of throwing money at the problem but this just sounds like standard parenting life to me (better than average in fact; we have a few date nights per year and that is more than my local average, I haven’t heard of anyone with weekly nights off!) We *don’t* get everything done, we don’t get free time except by stealing it from something else. Every minute spent on one thing is a minute taken away from something else. There is no way around the hard work that is needed to care for small children. And, we’re grownups, it’s not supposed to be fun. Based on my kid, I imagine a lot of stuff will ease up by the time they are school-aged, but for us that’s just meant not being underwater 100% of the time.
That being said, I find that a short commute is worth a whole lot to me, and losing an hour+ every day would be really hard.
posted by tchemgrrl at 6:58 PM on May 6, 2018 [2 favorites]
That being said, I find that a short commute is worth a whole lot to me, and losing an hour+ every day would be really hard.
posted by tchemgrrl at 6:58 PM on May 6, 2018 [2 favorites]
I'm parent of two kids 5 and 8, married partner works full time, both have hour commute each way. This was my life.
I work with many young and childless people due to my field. They ask what it's like being a parent and I say I have three jobs. My work job, the at-home day care that I run, and the full-service bed and breakfast that I run, with laundry and meals included.
It does get better as they get older. Our oldest loves to read and will read by himself for hours. Our youngest will play alongside the oldest without antagonizing him now. Drop-off play dates are a revelation. Both ways - I find having friends come over doesn't double the parenting, it halves it, a the kids entertain themselves. This only works when they are old enough for self-directed play, like 5 or 6 or so.
I find splitting up the family for parts of the weekend is much better. Face it, when the whole family is together almost nobody gets what they really want. You don't get to talk to your spouse. They don't get to have time alone. The youngest doesn't get any individual attention. The oldest is sick of doing activities that can include the youngest as they are now boring. The grown ups expect to be able to do other activities like clean or take a phone call because they aren't the solo parent but there's not enough attention left to really break away so it's stressful.
My spouse and I call this "family together time" as when we're all tired and hungry and angry in the car returning from some overpriced supposedly fun activity and everyone has snapped at someone or cried or is about to. Hey, we're having "family together time!"
I actually prefer solo parenting my two kids for a few hours at a stretch. I can get my head in the game, I don't expect to be able to also check things on my phone or do extensive housework or prepare a complicated meal.
Beware trading housework for parenting and thinking that the balance is even, to quote somebody "but honey I always do the dishes" "the dishes don't talk back to you"
Splitting up and two by two parenting is also good - one parent takes one kid to another location. That leads to actual conversation and interaction instead of shouting and crowd control.
Finding outside venues and activities where the primary focus is not safety helps as well. Beach, pond, zoo, large enclosed playgrounds, all those things where watching your kid get killed by an errant car tend to be helpful.
posted by sol at 10:50 AM on May 7, 2018 [3 favorites]
I work with many young and childless people due to my field. They ask what it's like being a parent and I say I have three jobs. My work job, the at-home day care that I run, and the full-service bed and breakfast that I run, with laundry and meals included.
It does get better as they get older. Our oldest loves to read and will read by himself for hours. Our youngest will play alongside the oldest without antagonizing him now. Drop-off play dates are a revelation. Both ways - I find having friends come over doesn't double the parenting, it halves it, a the kids entertain themselves. This only works when they are old enough for self-directed play, like 5 or 6 or so.
I find splitting up the family for parts of the weekend is much better. Face it, when the whole family is together almost nobody gets what they really want. You don't get to talk to your spouse. They don't get to have time alone. The youngest doesn't get any individual attention. The oldest is sick of doing activities that can include the youngest as they are now boring. The grown ups expect to be able to do other activities like clean or take a phone call because they aren't the solo parent but there's not enough attention left to really break away so it's stressful.
My spouse and I call this "family together time" as when we're all tired and hungry and angry in the car returning from some overpriced supposedly fun activity and everyone has snapped at someone or cried or is about to. Hey, we're having "family together time!"
I actually prefer solo parenting my two kids for a few hours at a stretch. I can get my head in the game, I don't expect to be able to also check things on my phone or do extensive housework or prepare a complicated meal.
Beware trading housework for parenting and thinking that the balance is even, to quote somebody "but honey I always do the dishes" "the dishes don't talk back to you"
Splitting up and two by two parenting is also good - one parent takes one kid to another location. That leads to actual conversation and interaction instead of shouting and crowd control.
Finding outside venues and activities where the primary focus is not safety helps as well. Beach, pond, zoo, large enclosed playgrounds, all those things where watching your kid get killed by an errant car tend to be helpful.
posted by sol at 10:50 AM on May 7, 2018 [3 favorites]
I haven't read all the answers, but for us we have to split the weekends. Today I went to brunch with a friend while my husband took the kids to the park with some neighbors. This afternoon he went for a long cycle while I stayed with the kids at home (with another friend visiting.) We both had great days.
Also, involve other people! Even annoying childcare can be more fun when a friend stops by to just, I don't know, chat. I work really, really hard to cultivate friendships with people I can do this with -- it just makes taking care of my own children so much less painful! :)
posted by caoimhe at 12:07 PM on May 7, 2018
Also, involve other people! Even annoying childcare can be more fun when a friend stops by to just, I don't know, chat. I work really, really hard to cultivate friendships with people I can do this with -- it just makes taking care of my own children so much less painful! :)
posted by caoimhe at 12:07 PM on May 7, 2018
> Also, involve other people! Even annoying childcare can be more fun when a friend stops by to just, I don't know, chat. I work really, really hard to cultivate friendships with people I can do this with -- it just makes taking care of my own children so much less painful! :)
Chiming in as a person without children who has a lot of friends with small children:
Believe your childless friends when they say that they are totally okay with hanging out in your messy house and hanging out with your little person while chatting.
I know, I know -- you were burned by that one friend who made a big deal about coming over but was totally unrealistic about how much attention small kids need and it made you feel bad. On the other hand, some of us are super-fast learners and truly love playing with our friends' kids, and would rather participate in your life the way it is than let a good friendship slip away because you think your house is messy (our houses are messy too).
posted by desuetude at 1:02 PM on May 7, 2018 [2 favorites]
Chiming in as a person without children who has a lot of friends with small children:
Believe your childless friends when they say that they are totally okay with hanging out in your messy house and hanging out with your little person while chatting.
I know, I know -- you were burned by that one friend who made a big deal about coming over but was totally unrealistic about how much attention small kids need and it made you feel bad. On the other hand, some of us are super-fast learners and truly love playing with our friends' kids, and would rather participate in your life the way it is than let a good friendship slip away because you think your house is messy (our houses are messy too).
posted by desuetude at 1:02 PM on May 7, 2018 [2 favorites]
Two options: The first (and presently socially acceptable option) is to throw money at paying people to take over more of your tasks. The second is to, at a minimum, teach your kids to be more self sufficient, or better yet to independently take care of some of the tasks you and your spouse are currently handling.
It wasn't all that long ago that a lot of kids had significant chores and were at least partly unsupervised pretty much by the time they started elementary school, if not earlier. These days it seems like everyone you know would freak out if it turned out a 5 or 6 year old was serving themselves breakfast and snacks, much less sorting laundry, dressing and grooming themselves, and such.
Kids should be kids and have unstructured time, but that doesn't mean they can't also assist in some of the time consuming tasks of keeping a household running.
posted by wierdo at 1:15 PM on May 7, 2018 [1 favorite]
It wasn't all that long ago that a lot of kids had significant chores and were at least partly unsupervised pretty much by the time they started elementary school, if not earlier. These days it seems like everyone you know would freak out if it turned out a 5 or 6 year old was serving themselves breakfast and snacks, much less sorting laundry, dressing and grooming themselves, and such.
Kids should be kids and have unstructured time, but that doesn't mean they can't also assist in some of the time consuming tasks of keeping a household running.
posted by wierdo at 1:15 PM on May 7, 2018 [1 favorite]
Sorry it's just going to suck for a while. Life's problems would be pretty easy to take care of if you could convince a 2 year old to manage their life, and often you can't even convice an adult to do that.
Potty trained at first is slightly better, and then both in school gets slightly better. Some people like baby time and some don't. I don't miss it at all.
posted by The_Vegetables at 2:44 PM on May 7, 2018
Potty trained at first is slightly better, and then both in school gets slightly better. Some people like baby time and some don't. I don't miss it at all.
posted by The_Vegetables at 2:44 PM on May 7, 2018
Um ... chiming in to respectfully temper desuetude's optimism. No, we (childless friends) aren't always "totally okay" with hanging out with your little person while chatting.
It would be impossible for me to give less of a shit about your messy house, because that's how I live too. But sitting in a kitchen of any state of cleanliness while you struggle to have a conversation in 45-second intervals while someone else constantly interrupts about dragons or crying or whatever is not always a good time.
Sometimes, fine. Always, no. If that makes me "that one friend" then so be it, but I'm trying to tell you now so you don't feel burned later.
posted by mccxxiii at 3:55 AM on May 8, 2018 [1 favorite]
It would be impossible for me to give less of a shit about your messy house, because that's how I live too. But sitting in a kitchen of any state of cleanliness while you struggle to have a conversation in 45-second intervals while someone else constantly interrupts about dragons or crying or whatever is not always a good time.
Sometimes, fine. Always, no. If that makes me "that one friend" then so be it, but I'm trying to tell you now so you don't feel burned later.
posted by mccxxiii at 3:55 AM on May 8, 2018 [1 favorite]
I just want to push back a bit on the child labour thing. I don't think it's incorrect that kids can be a big help, sometimes bigger than we think. But at 5 and 2, those days are still a bit far away. Here's what's changed that since the Golden Era of Child Help that people are referencing here:
1. Two working parents. When kids were such a help, guess who was home to supervise? Mom, or on a farm, Mom and Dad. There were hours and hours for parents to train kids in how to do things safely and well. When you're all out at the door at 7:45 and home at 6:15 pm, that calculus changes a bit.
2. Same thing...kids aren't home as much as they used to be, and they will have homework and activities too. So their time may be limited as well. I consider it my kids' born duty to help take care of their own belongings and with general chores. But my mum had me washing walls and scrubbing garage doors and all kinds of things that I had time to do because I was home after school at 3:45, and home most summers. My kids are in camps etc.
3. It takes time, money, and energy to work with kids and chores. My kids are pretty helpful. My 12 year old broke our Dyson when he was 10 and there was an incident with dental floss. Over the weekend he ran over the extension cord with the lawnmower. My 7 year old made lunches yesterday morning, which was awesome, but there was a the-cracker-bag-exploded incident. Nothing wrong with any of that, but if you're in the weeds, it feels hard. Start small...a bit of extra time loading the dishwasher becomes a great habit.
4. The chores little kids help most with sometimes are things like dusting, laundry folding - great help but not always what's top of mind when you're triaging.
posted by warriorqueen at 8:36 AM on May 8, 2018 [3 favorites]
1. Two working parents. When kids were such a help, guess who was home to supervise? Mom, or on a farm, Mom and Dad. There were hours and hours for parents to train kids in how to do things safely and well. When you're all out at the door at 7:45 and home at 6:15 pm, that calculus changes a bit.
2. Same thing...kids aren't home as much as they used to be, and they will have homework and activities too. So their time may be limited as well. I consider it my kids' born duty to help take care of their own belongings and with general chores. But my mum had me washing walls and scrubbing garage doors and all kinds of things that I had time to do because I was home after school at 3:45, and home most summers. My kids are in camps etc.
3. It takes time, money, and energy to work with kids and chores. My kids are pretty helpful. My 12 year old broke our Dyson when he was 10 and there was an incident with dental floss. Over the weekend he ran over the extension cord with the lawnmower. My 7 year old made lunches yesterday morning, which was awesome, but there was a the-cracker-bag-exploded incident. Nothing wrong with any of that, but if you're in the weeds, it feels hard. Start small...a bit of extra time loading the dishwasher becomes a great habit.
4. The chores little kids help most with sometimes are things like dusting, laundry folding - great help but not always what's top of mind when you're triaging.
posted by warriorqueen at 8:36 AM on May 8, 2018 [3 favorites]
Teaching my kids to do chores always takes about least twice as long as doing the chore myself. Eventually it’ll pay off, but first I have to find six extra hours, in chunks, to invest in step-by-step coaching.
The thing I’ve found I have to do is cancel stuff. Just don’t do it. If we are scheduled to be out of the house every weeknight then something needs to get canceled so we can have an evening at home to recharge, tidy, and get them to bed on time.
posted by bq at 9:24 AM on May 8, 2018 [1 favorite]
The thing I’ve found I have to do is cancel stuff. Just don’t do it. If we are scheduled to be out of the house every weeknight then something needs to get canceled so we can have an evening at home to recharge, tidy, and get them to bed on time.
posted by bq at 9:24 AM on May 8, 2018 [1 favorite]
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