Ethics with possibly soon-to-be-ex spouse from long distance
October 26, 2017 8:08 AM   Subscribe

A conscript of the patriarchy, knee-deep in his own psychological troubles, wishes to ask for the moral/ethical guidelines for supporting ourselves, the possibly soon-to-be-ex spouses currently separated geographically.

Some background:

I am a male, not in the US, and currently my career is going rapidly downward, while I am engaged in a (voluntary) psychotherapy programme for my anxiety/stress, depression, dissociation, and compulsive behaviour problems. My competency with empathy and emotions is quite low. We're a straight cis couple in the early 30s, with no children, and the spouse is in a foreign country for her study/training programmes. She'll graduate from the program in 10+ months. Economical conditions preclude frequent travel to meet each other. I am rather withdrawn and don't have much of social support. (And I doubt if I deserve that kind of support.)

The crisis:

Our marriage hasn't been a good one, and it's breaking down. She thinks I'm not making enough progress, and she is at her breaking point. She is at times greatly distressed by the emotions of anxiety, insecurity, frustration, and hopelessness. She wants me to snap out of it really soon, and she wonders if I'm sulking and hiding behind this psychotherapy thing. She need to see concrete progress with my career, such that I can join her in Foreign Country in the near future, and advance together with our marriage and careers, and possibly to have children (although I self-assessed that I'm not ready to be a parent).

The topic is very triggering for me, and in the past I've not dealt with it well. But this topic is inevitable, and even if she tries to suppress her anxiety and desire for brining a closure to this, the attempt only makes herself more distressed. I fear this kind of conversation, too. I get very sorry for her, for myself, and it makes me want to give up therapy, because I begin to seriously doubt if I'm really just sulking behind therapy, if I really need it, if I just need to work more and things will get better. Often after a conversation like that my symptoms begin to revert and I have to hold them back. During the conversations I try to muster whatever emotional competency I've gained lately, to validate ourselves, to support even if merely verbally, and to make the best out of the communication, but I very often fail.

The crisis here and now:

Although we still feel the need to attachment towards each other, we think the marriage is breaking down. She kinda gave me an implied ultimatum: go live with her for a few weeks in Foreign Country for the holidays, to put things (and me) in order, to re-attach, and see if it will work. If not, it's divorce then.

What I'd like to hear from you:

Being a conscript in the patriarchy only recently beginning to awaken, I try to understand my privileges, and make ethical decisions. I know she's been doing the major emotional labour, and I hope I will not waste it, and hopefully reciprocate. But I fear that I'm too damaged and incompetent.

I don't ask you to help us repair the marriage or my own problems. I'm not asking for your emotional support, either. I am asking about how I should behave ethically. How do I understand my priorities and duties from a feminist point of view? In this spouse yet maybe soon-to-be-ex situation, what are the ethical guidelines? What are the things I can do to minimise her hurt? What I'm trying is apparently not enough, and my understanding of her situation not authentic enough.

I understand that she's already doing her best to support me and give me a chance, and I think it's fair enough that she has the right to detach from me if the future with me imperils her own well-being and career, if I don't improve. How do I, in this situation, balance her needs and mine?

Thank you very much for bearing with me, and I look forward to your input.
posted by anonymous to Human Relations (18 answers total) 3 users marked this as a favorite
 
As a woman, your spouse is in the wrong.

You have a medical problem (depression). You are in treatment. When the treatment is not working, instead of working with you to find a better solution she dumps existential threats on your relationship. This is not ok.

Your spouse is perfectly within rights to leave you if she doesn’t like the current situation. But why torment you when you are sick and participating in a treatment program?

Your responsibility is to get yourself well. Take the feedback that your treatment is not working and seek alternatives, such as medication, diet, exercise, lifestyle changes. Get yourself well. Once you have improved your own health and well being you might see her behaviour in a different light.
posted by crazycanuck at 8:24 AM on October 26, 2017 [13 favorites]


I don't feel like she's that in the wrong to ask for you to go stay with her in Foreign Country if that's what she needs, but that doesn't mean you should (or even can!) do what she asks. If you don't feel that you can or should go, don't go.

And as a woman who is reasonably keenly aware of the patriarchy I'm not 100% clear on how it figures into your situation here... you are talking so abstractly I do not clearly understand what your concerns are. You seem like you're overthinking big time.

If your marriage is over it doesn't mean you're permanently damaged or incompetent or anti-feminist, more likely it's just a wrong place, wrong time kind of thing. Between being in a long-distance relationship, what sounds like career concerns for both of you, and depression, this relationship sounds like you're "playing on hard mode."

Also, ASK FOR SOME FREAKING EMOTIONAL SUPPORT, it sounds like you need it.
posted by mskyle at 8:45 AM on October 26, 2017 [25 favorites]


Remember, without kids your first obligation is to yourself. Your obligation is not to anyone else - especially not someone in a different country giving you ultimatums while you are unwell.

Recover first, and if that's not compatible with being with your partner then so be it. It doesn't sound like her badgering you to "snap out of it" is a healthy situation at all nor is it helping in your recovery. In fact, at the risk of talking out of my ass, it sounds like this relationship is more than a little harmful in your current state. I might even venture into the "abusive" label.
posted by FakeFreyja at 8:46 AM on October 26, 2017 [2 favorites]


I'm a woman who has been married for a long time and I'm going through a blue period, so you have my empathy.

When a married couple has geographically divided lives, there is no absolute fair way to make the relocation decision. It's pretty hard to give both people the job they want in the location they want.

Historically, at least where I am, the man's career was expected be more important and the woman followed, or if she had ambitions, let go. To resist the patriarchy, you should not automatically plan on doing it that way. However, automatic deferral to the woman's career (if limiting to just hetero couples) is not completely fair either.

Struggling at work sucks. Job hunting sucks. Being depressed and listening to your own bitter thoughts sucks. Getting divorced sucks.

I'm imagining that there is a money issue underneath that you didn't want to post about explicitly, but that could just be my imagination because my male sibling is supporting a partner in school. Are you wondering if you need to be a supportive husband until she finishes school, even if you think she's about to gnaw her leg off to get away from you? This is hard.
posted by puddledork at 9:03 AM on October 26, 2017 [2 favorites]


Dear anonymous, your question could have been written by my husband... to his ex-wife. So forgive me if I'm projecting a bit here.

You have depression, anxiety, and other challenges. Her main focus seems (from your question) to be on you "snapping out of it" so she can proceed with her life plan (note that this is her life plan, not your shared life plan, crafted together) ASAP. Please consider that your depression is causing you to believe that you deserve to be with someone who treats you in this way. Please consider that your depression is lying to you. You deserve love, empathy, and equality in a relationship. You finding evidence in yourself of expecting these things to be given to you without finding it necessary to provide them in equal measure does not disqualify you from deserving them. You are working on giving your wife what she needs, in good faith. From your question, I do not see that she is doing the same for you. I'm married to someone with depression and anxiety. He doubts himself. He has his challenges. Here's the thing: I have my own challenges. His diagnosis does not absolve me from the need to work on myself. Every human does. My husband and I are both works in progress and always will be.

Please prioritize yourself and your wellness. My personal analogy is this: Every relationship is like a rowboat. Sometimes one of you is unwell (in whatever way that might be) and needs the other to row harder. If your wife is tired of rowing, this is not on you. A relationship is a rowboat. It involves rowing.
posted by pammeke at 9:05 AM on October 26, 2017 [3 favorites]


Dude, screw the patriarchy.

You are a person. Your wife is a person. Yes you do need to do your own emotional labour but that is, in this situation, adddressing your mental health (doing!), deciding what you want and what you are willing to do and communicate that respectfully.

That’s “all” — it’s hard but really what you owe her is to share your truth and be kind where possible (which is not the same as being nice.)

Right now:

1) do you want to go for the holidays or are you done?
2) do you intend to work towards a career like she wants for you
3) if not, do you want to find another way to join her, with some freelance or other work?
4) if not, do you want a divorce right away or do you want her to consider changing /her/ goals.

Figure out where you are. Don’t get all up in feminist theory; that’s a distraction.
posted by warriorqueen at 9:12 AM on October 26, 2017 [20 favorites]


Another couple of questions that may clear up your reluctance and phrasing concerning ethics: Are you financially supporting your spouse while she is studying? Is your reluctance to end this relationship based on a feeling that you are obligated to continue this arrangement?
posted by FakeFreyja at 9:17 AM on October 26, 2017


I agree that this is nothing to do with the patriarchy and feminism. You're 2 people with your own individual needs. Its clear from your question that you are suffering from depression and low self esteem - you also mention several other mental health problems, taking the time to get treatment for those issues is not sulking but it may take more time than she has. She's in her early 30s and you mention children - if she wants her own biological children, she needs to get cracking on that ASAP. If you're not in a position to be in the same country as her and be a father, then that would explain her urgency.

Your needs are in opposition and neither of you are wrong. Divorce may be the best thing for both of you, tbh, it doesn't sound like she's the most sympathetic spouse.
posted by missmagenta at 9:26 AM on October 26, 2017 [7 favorites]


I'm super unclear on what "behaving ethically from a feminist standpoint" would mean in the context you've presented here. In the end of a marriage the focus is just on behaving ethically from a HUMAN standpoint. Don't lie. Don't cheat. Don't make major decisions that you don't convey to the other person. Don't ignore your responsibilities to take care of yourself and your health.

You are not obligated by feminism or humanity to go and stay with her, to have conversations you aren't ready to have, or (especially, oh my god, times a million) to have children you aren't willing to have. You are only obligated (by both feminism and humanity) to recognize that she also has the freedom to leave you if you cannot provide things which are reasonably important to her.

As to financial ethics, your obligations will be best determined by the laws of your respective countries, and then you will have the choice to potentially do more than they require.
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 9:28 AM on October 26, 2017 [10 favorites]


Part of the whole "patriarchy" thing is toxic masculinity, that cis men must override their feelings and be tough and not cry. (Of course, they can get very angry; that's the one emotion that's okay.) I agree that feminist theory is a distraction, but if you're going to use it as a lens, include that.

On the emotional-labor front, do your best (within the bounds of what depression and anxiety make possible for you) to do a lot of listening and emphasizing with her. I don't think it obligates you to travel to another country, unless the underlying reason that you'd stay home is a sexist assumption that your career matters more than hers. (I'm not hearing that assumption.)
posted by salvia at 10:26 AM on October 26, 2017 [2 favorites]


She wants to get on with things, and that's fine and reasonable and natural at her stage of life for one unafflicted with psychological troubles, but if part of getting on with things is securing a nondepressed partner who is raring to go, who is not a conscript to the patriarchy, and who wants to father children soon, and if she must have that person by her side linking arms with her facing the day every morning in the short term, then she must go find that person. You can't become that person in the next few months, and trying to do so will not only waste your time and distract from the work you're trying to do to find solutions for your psychological troubles, it will create suffering for her, for you, and for, god forbid, any children that result. Facing up to this and speaking with her honestly about it would not be chauvinist. The kindest and most feminist thing to do for everyone, living and not-yet-conceived, is to end this now.
posted by Don Pepino at 10:49 AM on October 26, 2017 [4 favorites]


(It seems possible that this is just a somewhat emotionally detached and possibly dissociating person's way of asking, "am I a terrible example of manhood and misogyny if I divorce my wife under these circumstances?" or even "is it okay to leave my wife even if it hurts her that I'm leaving." The answers to which are no, you're not a terrible example of manhood and misogyny, and yes, it's okay to leave even if it hurts.)
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 11:03 AM on October 26, 2017 [12 favorites]


“and it makes me want to give up therapy because I begin to seriously doubt if I'm really just sulking behind therapy, if I really need it”
“I am engaged in a (voluntary) psychotherapy programme for my anxiety/stress, depression, dissociation, and compulsive behaviour problems. My competency with empathy and emotions is quite low”

Whatever you do, please stick with your course of therapy. You need it, and it will help you in the future regardless of what you decide to do about your marriage.
posted by fireandthud at 12:07 PM on October 26, 2017 [4 favorites]


I have so much empathy for you both. I'm frequently disassociating and ignoring my emotional needs by getting wrapped up in tangentially related ethical issues. I've also been the partner watching someone spin out and not able to bridge the communication gap to handle it together.

It wasn't that I was unempathetic. But my ex was going through two very understandable big life changes. And instead of allowing me to be his social support, he created a black box. Real men deal with their emotions. Eventually the gap between his actual emotional state and stated emotional state were so wide, he began making obvious lies. The inability to trust him - not just to be honest with me, but also to take care of his own needs - led me to pretty controlling place.

I mention this because your description of what you try to do in your conversations doesn't sound like you are making the best out of the communication. It sounds like you're trying to keep the peace and validate the relationship at the expense of having a genuine conversation about the relationship or your respective needs.

That requires you to understand your needs and advocate for them. It doesn't matter what you think you deserve. You might not believe you deserve social support. But without it, your symptoms go unchecked and actively destroy your life. Even if you aren't in a place to care about your life, I find it helpful to remember that without these debilitating symptoms, I might be able to devote energy to smashing the patriarchy.

Given your need to be emotionally independent, I don't love the word choice "psychotherapy programme" rather than therapy. Do you have a dedicated therapist? Are you connecting with them? You are paying them for emotional labor. You should feel that they are a resource for you when your symptoms re-emerge, so you don't have to 'hold back'. Instead you can work through it with a trusted professional who is invested in your well being. If you don't feel that level of trust, you should start to ask yourself why. Maybe it's that you need to work on building a capacity for trust (this was me) or maybe you need to find a better fit.
posted by politikitty at 2:13 PM on October 26, 2017 [2 favorites]


"How do I, in this situation, balance her needs and mine?"

Start by accepting that you have needs, too. You are so self-deprecating it's painful to read what you wrote here. You are a person who is entirely worthy of love and social support. You won't be able to behave in an ethical way if you are not confident in your own skin and if you don't believe that there's strength and value within you that you can and will unearth. There's more than "she needs" and "you should". This uneven dynamic is not breaking free from patriarchy, nor is it feminist - it's you speaking from a place of incredible insecurity, a place you've been working to get away from. Keep working on that and be honest with her about that intention.

Two more things. 1. I would talk about the therapist(s) in your program about the role your spouse can/should play in your road towards recovery. 2. You not only say your marriage is breaking down, but also that it "hasn't been a good one". Do you actually want it to last? Or is this also something you think she needs and you feel obliged to?
posted by Desertshore at 3:05 PM on October 26, 2017 [4 favorites]


She is at times greatly distressed by the emotions of anxiety, insecurity, frustration, and hopelessness.

Hers or yours? Some people are answering as if you meant that your feelings distress her, and disapproving of her accordingly. but you mention her feelings of anxiety and frustration more directly later, so you apparently mean she is depressed and anxious, on her own. If I am incorrect, please clarify, because this reading or misreading is prompting a lot of condemnation of your wife that you may or may not have meant to prompt.

The vagueness of your question, apart from this, is telling, but since it's so vague it's impossible to know what it's telling of. like for example, "compulsive behaviour problems" could mean any or all of the following:

repeatedly cleaning your home when it doesn't need it; compulsively checking to make sure you paid bills on time and turned out the lights; using illicit or intoxicating substances in an uncontrolled way; repeatedly losing your temper to the point of yelling without meaning to; seeking sexual gratification outside the marriage without affection or pleasure; repeatedly losing control of your emotions to the point of some other unspecified behavior.

or something totally different! but you can see how people are imagining whatever expression of this vague phrase is most familiar to them, and allotting sympathy to you and judgment to your wife accordingly, or the reverse. A desire for privacy is prudent and wise, but specificity is what gets you real answers, if you want them.

In any case, your wife wants to "possibly" have children and to live in the same country in the same home with you. If you don't want that badly enough to make it happen, or don't want it at all, or want it but feel comprehensively unable to make it happen, the only thing feminism can offer you is the obligation to tell her so before too much time goes by. But it sounds like she knows it and is going to act on this knowledge herself.

She should be as understanding and kind to you as you are to her -- though with nonspecific "empathy" problems on your end, I don't know exactly what that means. but all the kindness and patience in the world will not change the fact that she wants a husband who is open to children and who lives with her. I hope your mental health and happiness improves, but your wants may be incompatible with hers even when you are both not depressed.
posted by queenofbithynia at 4:17 PM on October 26, 2017 [4 favorites]


I don't know anyone that has overcome serious health issues without tackling it on three front:

1. therapy/emotional support
2. medical attention (including medication and other therapies)
3. lifestyle changes (including changing careers if the previous career had a negative impact)

You mention psychotherapy (yay!) but that cannot be the only solution (and it requires YOU to do the work, just showing up for appointments is not proof of anything). Have you considered an inpatient/residential treatment? It also sounds like your wife is struggling with health issues but you have not been able to give her the same level of support she has given you. What can you do to boost your support? Are your conversations equally about each other and positive things in your lives, or are you dominating (through words or attitude) and/or negative?

Your communication style around emotions is very stilted; it is as though you are trying to hide behind rationality or academic language to distance yourself and invalidate emotions/feelings.
posted by saucysault at 7:58 AM on October 27, 2017 [1 favorite]


Also, distance in relationships IS hard, even when everything is peachy keen. So I would look into prioritising being together and how you can make that work (arranging visas, employment, medical team) where she is.
posted by saucysault at 8:01 AM on October 27, 2017


« Older What's best for a child being raised by a family...   |   Readings about assimilating the disparities in... Newer »
This thread is closed to new comments.