I need an intervention with my fiance before it's too late.
October 24, 2016 4:27 AM Subscribe
I am in a crisis situation with my SO. We are engaged with a wedding date less than 8 months away. While she is busy planning the wedding, I am spending more and more of my free time worrying about everything that is wrong with our relationship. As much as I'm praying that we can work through our issues, our fights have become more frequent and nastier. As a result, I'm experiencing major anxiety related to the upcoming wedding. I'm going to have a conversation with her about my feelings but am genuinely torn about what decision to make: keep the wedding date and try to work through our issues vs. postpone the wedding and work through our issues vs. cancel the engagement altogether vs. break up. Based on the relationship dynamics I describe below, what is everyone's advice as to the best course of action to take? To postpone the wedding & work through the issues seems like the most logical path, but my gut feeling tells me that she won't be receptive to that idea.
We had been together for 5 months when I proposed, so I will be the first to admit that I jumped the gun on the engagement. We had a whirlwind romance from the beginning. We have now been together for just over 1 year. I'll also admit that I have an avoidant personality so I have a pathological tendency to hide my true feelings when I know that expressing them may result in relationship turmoil. This has only made things worse and has caused me to feel anger and resentment towards my fiancé for not getting my needs met. As a result, I'm blaming no one but myself for the situation I've gotten myself into.
Unhealthy dynamics / Red Flags that are causing me to have so much ambivalence:
1). Dependency
Whenever I have to do a 24 hour shift for work, I am on the receiving end of separation anxiety. I have to constantly hear how me being away from her makes her feel sick, she reminds me how alone she is, how bored she is without me there, and how she can't handle me being away from the house...etc etc. Because of her reaction when I'm away because of work, I can't even imagine her response if I tell her I want to go out with my friends for a "guy night", let alone go on an overnight trip with my friends. I NEED to have relationship/life balance but I can't figure out how to express this need. What is the best approach in telling someone that they are being too needy without coming across as insensitive or critical? It's a sensitive subject...
2). Volatility
It does not take much for her to lose her temper. Typically, if she doesn't get what she wants, she will go from 0-100 real quick. She'll raise her voice, start yelling at me, and whether intentionally or not, make me feel like a horrible person. Her mood swings can be very labile. One second I can be the greatest thing ever--next second she can be snapping at me for something so benign I'm scared of her response if I ever did something actually worthy of a tongue lashing.
3). Aggression
There have been occasional times where during the heat of conflict she's called me a derogatory name, or told me to shut the F up. Also there was one episode where she actually shoved me. I told her that if that she ever did that again, I'm leaving the relationship. She promised she'd never do it again, but what if she becomes physically abusive after we're married? I guess I have my guard up now and don't know if I should forgive & forget vs. be paranoid.
4). Trust issues
There is a general air of mistrust that is constantly haunting this relationship. I have caught her actively logging into my facebook account, going through my email, I feel her always looking over my phone when I'm texting. I am convinced that it is her mission to try and get dirt on me so that she can then justify her behavior. If I'm 15 min late from work, I'd better have an explanation ready. On the rare occasion I'm out with friends it's text text text text text text text text. I have been nothing but faithful to this woman so her trust issues are entirely unfounded. Rather they stem from previous relationships and the fact that her father neglected her growing up. And although she'll freely admit she has trust issues, I don't get the vibe from her that she is willing to seek professional help to work through these issues.
We had a particularly nasty fight last night during which I told her that she is one of the meanest and most critical people I've ever met (alcohol was involved). She then looked at me and flat out says she doesn't want to marry me and tried to give me the ring back. Yet fast forward to this morning, she went house searching for us and was planning on working on the "save the dates" so she clearly is not as concerned about our relationship dynamics as I am. It's like she wants to pretend that everything is OK and it's full speed ahead with wedding planning and house searching less than 12 hours after threatening to end the engagement herself. It's like the relationship feels very bipolar to me.
I don't want to pretend like the "red flag" behavior was non-existent at the beginning--it's just been getting worse as time goes on. I'm more in tune with it and more likely now to stand up for myself and not tolerate the behavior--which causes us to start fighting. I know I paint a grim picture but I do genuinely love this woman. I am committed to working through these issues with her so that this relationship can feel healthy again. One thing I know is that she's not open to the idea of speaking with a couples counselor. She doesn't want to ''waste her time" talking to a stranger about her problems. Therefore it's up to me & her to resolve these issues ASAP. I am also open to feedback as to what role I am playing that is feeding into our problems. I know that I'm not an innocent person. I almost wonder if I have commitment issues and I'm looking for a green light to leave the relationship? Like maybe I'm subconsciously baiting her into fighting with me so I can create a toxic environment? I just know I'm very confused at why & how quickly the relationship has turned sour since we've become engaged.
We had been together for 5 months when I proposed, so I will be the first to admit that I jumped the gun on the engagement. We had a whirlwind romance from the beginning. We have now been together for just over 1 year. I'll also admit that I have an avoidant personality so I have a pathological tendency to hide my true feelings when I know that expressing them may result in relationship turmoil. This has only made things worse and has caused me to feel anger and resentment towards my fiancé for not getting my needs met. As a result, I'm blaming no one but myself for the situation I've gotten myself into.
Unhealthy dynamics / Red Flags that are causing me to have so much ambivalence:
1). Dependency
Whenever I have to do a 24 hour shift for work, I am on the receiving end of separation anxiety. I have to constantly hear how me being away from her makes her feel sick, she reminds me how alone she is, how bored she is without me there, and how she can't handle me being away from the house...etc etc. Because of her reaction when I'm away because of work, I can't even imagine her response if I tell her I want to go out with my friends for a "guy night", let alone go on an overnight trip with my friends. I NEED to have relationship/life balance but I can't figure out how to express this need. What is the best approach in telling someone that they are being too needy without coming across as insensitive or critical? It's a sensitive subject...
2). Volatility
It does not take much for her to lose her temper. Typically, if she doesn't get what she wants, she will go from 0-100 real quick. She'll raise her voice, start yelling at me, and whether intentionally or not, make me feel like a horrible person. Her mood swings can be very labile. One second I can be the greatest thing ever--next second she can be snapping at me for something so benign I'm scared of her response if I ever did something actually worthy of a tongue lashing.
3). Aggression
There have been occasional times where during the heat of conflict she's called me a derogatory name, or told me to shut the F up. Also there was one episode where she actually shoved me. I told her that if that she ever did that again, I'm leaving the relationship. She promised she'd never do it again, but what if she becomes physically abusive after we're married? I guess I have my guard up now and don't know if I should forgive & forget vs. be paranoid.
4). Trust issues
There is a general air of mistrust that is constantly haunting this relationship. I have caught her actively logging into my facebook account, going through my email, I feel her always looking over my phone when I'm texting. I am convinced that it is her mission to try and get dirt on me so that she can then justify her behavior. If I'm 15 min late from work, I'd better have an explanation ready. On the rare occasion I'm out with friends it's text text text text text text text text. I have been nothing but faithful to this woman so her trust issues are entirely unfounded. Rather they stem from previous relationships and the fact that her father neglected her growing up. And although she'll freely admit she has trust issues, I don't get the vibe from her that she is willing to seek professional help to work through these issues.
We had a particularly nasty fight last night during which I told her that she is one of the meanest and most critical people I've ever met (alcohol was involved). She then looked at me and flat out says she doesn't want to marry me and tried to give me the ring back. Yet fast forward to this morning, she went house searching for us and was planning on working on the "save the dates" so she clearly is not as concerned about our relationship dynamics as I am. It's like she wants to pretend that everything is OK and it's full speed ahead with wedding planning and house searching less than 12 hours after threatening to end the engagement herself. It's like the relationship feels very bipolar to me.
I don't want to pretend like the "red flag" behavior was non-existent at the beginning--it's just been getting worse as time goes on. I'm more in tune with it and more likely now to stand up for myself and not tolerate the behavior--which causes us to start fighting. I know I paint a grim picture but I do genuinely love this woman. I am committed to working through these issues with her so that this relationship can feel healthy again. One thing I know is that she's not open to the idea of speaking with a couples counselor. She doesn't want to ''waste her time" talking to a stranger about her problems. Therefore it's up to me & her to resolve these issues ASAP. I am also open to feedback as to what role I am playing that is feeding into our problems. I know that I'm not an innocent person. I almost wonder if I have commitment issues and I'm looking for a green light to leave the relationship? Like maybe I'm subconsciously baiting her into fighting with me so I can create a toxic environment? I just know I'm very confused at why & how quickly the relationship has turned sour since we've become engaged.
Are you the same person who asked a question a month ago about the red flags in their relationship with a wedding nine months away?
I believe the overwhelming response in that thread was DO NOT GET MARRIED IN NINE MONTHS. Stop planning the wedding, do not get married, postpone your nuptials indefinitely until you both have worked through these issues. Have you done that? Have you said those words? Because nothing is going to change if you don't start taking some action, and if you marry into this dynamic you're in for a world of hurt.
People gave a lot of really good, thoughtful answers in that thread. (I did not. I believe my reaction was more scorched earth/this is a dealbreaker/end the relationship, which is still an option and something you are always, always allowed to do for any reason.) Please go back and read them and take some positive, active steps for yourself here.
posted by phunniemee at 4:42 AM on October 24, 2016 [50 favorites]
I believe the overwhelming response in that thread was DO NOT GET MARRIED IN NINE MONTHS. Stop planning the wedding, do not get married, postpone your nuptials indefinitely until you both have worked through these issues. Have you done that? Have you said those words? Because nothing is going to change if you don't start taking some action, and if you marry into this dynamic you're in for a world of hurt.
People gave a lot of really good, thoughtful answers in that thread. (I did not. I believe my reaction was more scorched earth/this is a dealbreaker/end the relationship, which is still an option and something you are always, always allowed to do for any reason.) Please go back and read them and take some positive, active steps for yourself here.
posted by phunniemee at 4:42 AM on October 24, 2016 [50 favorites]
Nothing will change when you get married. After the wedding you go back to day-to-day life which is pretty much exactly the same barring some rings and perhaps a changed name. You will have the same arguments, the same problems, the same fun times, etc. If you have these issues now you will have the exact same issues after the wedding.
This is not saying you could never work through these issues together - just that if you get married without resolving them, the issues will still be there, and it will be more complicated to split up if you cannot resolve them.
posted by EndsOfInvention at 4:48 AM on October 24, 2016 [10 favorites]
This is not saying you could never work through these issues together - just that if you get married without resolving them, the issues will still be there, and it will be more complicated to split up if you cannot resolve them.
posted by EndsOfInvention at 4:48 AM on October 24, 2016 [10 favorites]
I am also open to feedback as to what role I am playing that is feeding into our problems.
Your role is that you made a mistake by getting engaged to someone you barely knew. Now you know her, and you know, deep down, that you shouldn't get married to her.
Your avoidant personality is the thing stopping you from breaking up with her. Even though she won't do couples counselling, there's nothing stopping you from seeing a counsellor to get the support you need to stand up for yourself and make the decision that you probably know you need to make.
posted by lollusc at 4:48 AM on October 24, 2016 [95 favorites]
Your role is that you made a mistake by getting engaged to someone you barely knew. Now you know her, and you know, deep down, that you shouldn't get married to her.
Your avoidant personality is the thing stopping you from breaking up with her. Even though she won't do couples counselling, there's nothing stopping you from seeing a counsellor to get the support you need to stand up for yourself and make the decision that you probably know you need to make.
posted by lollusc at 4:48 AM on October 24, 2016 [95 favorites]
Run. The way her interactions lock into your patterns (she's pushy and aggressive while you're tentative and reserved) will never be better without substantial outside help and a lot of work on both your parts. You might be willing to show up for that, but it sure doesn't sound like she is or will be.
Make a plan to leave and then do it.
posted by spindrifter at 4:55 AM on October 24, 2016 [6 favorites]
Make a plan to leave and then do it.
posted by spindrifter at 4:55 AM on October 24, 2016 [6 favorites]
Nope. Nope. Nope. I believe you that you genuinely love her, but do not marry her.
I promise you these situations do not get better. If you were in a position with children or a shared mortgage or any of the other entanglements that can (don't necessarily but can) come with marriage, then you would have a complicated decision. This one is not complicated.
posted by torticat at 5:01 AM on October 24, 2016 [10 favorites]
I promise you these situations do not get better. If you were in a position with children or a shared mortgage or any of the other entanglements that can (don't necessarily but can) come with marriage, then you would have a complicated decision. This one is not complicated.
posted by torticat at 5:01 AM on October 24, 2016 [10 favorites]
Good grief. I don't think I've ever read a clearer depiction of a relationship that needs to end ASAP. Please do not get married. There is a TON of work to do first, and even then, your words tell me that this is not the person for you.
To your credit, there is a great deal of self-awareness and you need to listen to what that is telling you. Everything you are saying is proof that marriage is a terrible idea for the two of you right now.
posted by I_Love_Bananas at 5:02 AM on October 24, 2016 [22 favorites]
To your credit, there is a great deal of self-awareness and you need to listen to what that is telling you. Everything you are saying is proof that marriage is a terrible idea for the two of you right now.
posted by I_Love_Bananas at 5:02 AM on October 24, 2016 [22 favorites]
Cancel the wedding.
If you want to work on the relationship, get some therapy for the both of you, although the physical shoving would have been a deal breaker for me. I'm so sorry.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 5:17 AM on October 24, 2016 [5 favorites]
If you want to work on the relationship, get some therapy for the both of you, although the physical shoving would have been a deal breaker for me. I'm so sorry.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 5:17 AM on October 24, 2016 [5 favorites]
Please listen. Please don't fool yourself with the unreasonable hope that somehow marriage will fix everything. Marriage doesn't fix things. Put on the brakes, it won't get easier as time goes on. Don't let wedding planning be the excuse for the worsening, you know that's not true or reasonable.
posted by Shutter at 5:25 AM on October 24, 2016 [9 favorites]
posted by Shutter at 5:25 AM on October 24, 2016 [9 favorites]
Any one of these things would be a huge red flag - maybe the separation anxiety thing would be worth pushing through with therapy if she were onboard. You have the chance to stop a terrible situation before it gets started and you should. Call off the wedding and (absent some positives you haven't described here) break up. It's still early enough to get back most deposits, etc, too, so this will be easier than wanting.
posted by Frowner at 5:26 AM on October 24, 2016
posted by Frowner at 5:26 AM on October 24, 2016
I just know I'm very confused at why & how quickly the relationship has turned sour since we've become engaged.
It's very common for a bad relationship to get worse once you have increased your commitment to each other, like when you move in together or get engaged or married. It sounds like this is partly what has happened, and it means that your partner's behavior is probably going to get even worse if you marry her.
Here's something else to think about: how exactly are you going to work through these issues with someone who refuses to go to a counselor, and who doesn't sound like she's willing to dealing with her issues on her own? These aren't things you can solve on your own, and you can't force her to work on this stuff if she doesn't want to (and it sounds like she doesn't want to).
Which makes me think that you should break up with this person, and that you should also maybe make a deal with yourself that next time you're in a relationship, you shouldn't even think about proposing until you've known each other for at least a year.
posted by colfax at 5:28 AM on October 24, 2016 [11 favorites]
It's very common for a bad relationship to get worse once you have increased your commitment to each other, like when you move in together or get engaged or married. It sounds like this is partly what has happened, and it means that your partner's behavior is probably going to get even worse if you marry her.
Here's something else to think about: how exactly are you going to work through these issues with someone who refuses to go to a counselor, and who doesn't sound like she's willing to dealing with her issues on her own? These aren't things you can solve on your own, and you can't force her to work on this stuff if she doesn't want to (and it sounds like she doesn't want to).
Which makes me think that you should break up with this person, and that you should also maybe make a deal with yourself that next time you're in a relationship, you shouldn't even think about proposing until you've known each other for at least a year.
posted by colfax at 5:28 AM on October 24, 2016 [11 favorites]
I loved a man like this once. I am so glad that I left him, even though it was the hardest and worst thing I've ever been through. Do yourself a kindness here, and do not marry this woman. Leaving is not going to be easy, but honestly it is necessary in this case. Do you have a good support system outside of this woman? Good family, friends, a therapist? Now is the time to lean heavily on others. This will not get better. Your only option is to walk away. I'm very sorry.
posted by sockermom at 5:28 AM on October 24, 2016 [16 favorites]
posted by sockermom at 5:28 AM on October 24, 2016 [16 favorites]
I will say that planning a wedding is one of the most stressful things that you can possibly do, and if this only started once it did, it'd be worth working through. But you say it's been like this from the beginning. You may love her deeply, but I don't think you guys are ready to get married right now. Postpone or call off.
posted by corb at 5:29 AM on October 24, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by corb at 5:29 AM on October 24, 2016 [2 favorites]
Okay, so she refuses to do couple's counseling with you, and you don't believe she'd be willing to postpone the wedding to work through your issues together. She doesn't trust you, gets physically and verbally abusive when she's angry, and loses her temper quickly. On top of that, you're avoidant and afraid of what she'll do if you ever do something "actually worthy of a tongue lashing." On the plus side, you actually are starting to speak up for yourself now, but this leads to nasty fights.
How do you envision the two of you working through these issues? Even if there were some amazing book the two of you could work through together, do you honestly believe she would openly participate in this with you? If she won't seek outside help, and bringing up issues privately only causes blow-ups ... I just don't see how you're going to make this work.
I suspect that you already know the kinds of things that could hypothetically help a relationship; there really is no magic pill, and you're not going to be able to fix this yourself. If all of the "get out" answers you're getting seem facile to you, envision some typical solutions to relationship issues and try to imagine how they'll actually play out with her.
From what you're describing here, I just don't see any of them succeeding. I'm sorry.
posted by DingoMutt at 5:34 AM on October 24, 2016 [11 favorites]
How do you envision the two of you working through these issues? Even if there were some amazing book the two of you could work through together, do you honestly believe she would openly participate in this with you? If she won't seek outside help, and bringing up issues privately only causes blow-ups ... I just don't see how you're going to make this work.
I suspect that you already know the kinds of things that could hypothetically help a relationship; there really is no magic pill, and you're not going to be able to fix this yourself. If all of the "get out" answers you're getting seem facile to you, envision some typical solutions to relationship issues and try to imagine how they'll actually play out with her.
From what you're describing here, I just don't see any of them succeeding. I'm sorry.
posted by DingoMutt at 5:34 AM on October 24, 2016 [11 favorites]
Do your future self a kindness and call off both the wedding and the relationship. This isn't a healthy relationship going through a tricky patch with both partners on board to getting professional help. This is a bad situation that's about to get a lot worse. I believe that you love her but love is not enough. Love yourself more.
P.S. all of the points mentioned are huge red flags. Including the not being open to counselling.
posted by Chrysalis at 5:40 AM on October 24, 2016 [11 favorites]
P.S. all of the points mentioned are huge red flags. Including the not being open to counselling.
posted by Chrysalis at 5:40 AM on October 24, 2016 [11 favorites]
A friend's dad got engaged to a woman after I think four months, and shortly afterward he realized that she was angry and controlling. They were having horrible fights all the time, etc.
He decided to break off the engagement. It was really hard for him to do. Not least because he was worried about looking like a fool to the people who knew he was engaged.
I was in the car with him on what was supposed to be his wedding day. You've never seen anybody so relieved.
Look. If you hadn't made the mistake of getting engaged to someone after knowing them the length of a season of TV - if this was not "your fiancé" but "your girlfriend of less than a year" - would you even be asking this question?
Of course you love her. But people with issues like hers DO NOT CHANGE if they refuse counseling. She doesn't WANT to change. She does not care that her behavior bothers you. If you marry her she will be angry, controlling, and invasive to you for the rest of your life.
posted by showbiz_liz at 5:43 AM on October 24, 2016 [46 favorites]
He decided to break off the engagement. It was really hard for him to do. Not least because he was worried about looking like a fool to the people who knew he was engaged.
I was in the car with him on what was supposed to be his wedding day. You've never seen anybody so relieved.
Look. If you hadn't made the mistake of getting engaged to someone after knowing them the length of a season of TV - if this was not "your fiancé" but "your girlfriend of less than a year" - would you even be asking this question?
Of course you love her. But people with issues like hers DO NOT CHANGE if they refuse counseling. She doesn't WANT to change. She does not care that her behavior bothers you. If you marry her she will be angry, controlling, and invasive to you for the rest of your life.
posted by showbiz_liz at 5:43 AM on October 24, 2016 [46 favorites]
Here's an idea - try telling her you'll be going out to dinner and movie with your friends and you'll be home [whenever], and that you won't be able to text during the dinner and movie because you don't want to be rude. Then go out and do that. Then see what her reaction is to this utterly normal thing that you should absolutely be able to do without worrying about your partner's reaction.
Are you thinking "I can't do that, she'll freak out and get angry"? That fact should scare the shit out of you.
posted by showbiz_liz at 5:52 AM on October 24, 2016 [92 favorites]
Are you thinking "I can't do that, she'll freak out and get angry"? That fact should scare the shit out of you.
posted by showbiz_liz at 5:52 AM on October 24, 2016 [92 favorites]
I know this must be so difficult, but you need to break up before a child becomes part of this equation.
posted by Room 641-A at 5:57 AM on October 24, 2016 [20 favorites]
posted by Room 641-A at 5:57 AM on October 24, 2016 [20 favorites]
you need to stop deciding things and then talking. instead, talk with her to decide what happens.
if you can't do that you sure as hell shouldn't be getting married.
posted by andrewcooke at 5:58 AM on October 24, 2016 [5 favorites]
if you can't do that you sure as hell shouldn't be getting married.
posted by andrewcooke at 5:58 AM on October 24, 2016 [5 favorites]
You can work your way through a lot in a relationship, but only on a foundation of trust. You don't have trust, so you're building on sand.
posted by adamrice at 6:04 AM on October 24, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by adamrice at 6:04 AM on October 24, 2016 [1 favorite]
Marrying this woman is not a kindness to her, either. She clearly is not a happy person, with anger bubbling so close to the surface and suspicion and denial that there are problems. It sounds like she is so wrapped up in the wedding that she isn't thinking about the relationship or the marriage or her unresolved issues.
For your both of your sakes, you need to call the engagement off and one of you needs to move out and both of you need to go no contact and get individual therapy. She'll never be able to confront these issues head on, and neither will you, while you both are in this relationship. It will be hard to do - the hardest thing - but in the end, it will be a kindness. Marriages need to be built on kindness and mutual respect, not fear.
posted by umwhat at 6:08 AM on October 24, 2016 [7 favorites]
For your both of your sakes, you need to call the engagement off and one of you needs to move out and both of you need to go no contact and get individual therapy. She'll never be able to confront these issues head on, and neither will you, while you both are in this relationship. It will be hard to do - the hardest thing - but in the end, it will be a kindness. Marriages need to be built on kindness and mutual respect, not fear.
posted by umwhat at 6:08 AM on October 24, 2016 [7 favorites]
Your partner has not even begun to understand that her behaviour is not normal, not healthy, and not acceptable. At some point in her life, she may have a "maybe it's me" epiphany and start to work on some of her issues, but it sounds as if that could be a long way off. At the moment, though, she's just not ready to be in a healthy, trusting relationship with anyone.
I know you feel that there's a worthwhile person beneath all of these issues, and that the issues aren't really her fault - i.e. they're a result of her life history. Maybe you feel that if you just persist for long enough, she'll change and become the person you'd like her to be. Maybe you think that by being this reliable, honest, utterly trustworthy person, you'll turn her around and she'll stop trying to control every aspect of your shared life. But that's not going to happen, because in her mind, nobody can ever be truly trusted, and it's just her behaviour that's keeping you from doing whatever it is she fears.
You're being an enabler in this relationship. It's not going to get better. In fact, it's going to end, probably bitterly, and probably within another year or two at most. You don't deserve any of this. You love her for about half of what she is, and she only loves you as long as you fill a particular set of needs. It's a dysfunctional situation, and at some point you're going to have to stop digging the hole and climb out of it. It'll be painful, but your future self will thank you. Maybe her future self will too.
posted by pipeski at 6:11 AM on October 24, 2016 [9 favorites]
I know you feel that there's a worthwhile person beneath all of these issues, and that the issues aren't really her fault - i.e. they're a result of her life history. Maybe you feel that if you just persist for long enough, she'll change and become the person you'd like her to be. Maybe you think that by being this reliable, honest, utterly trustworthy person, you'll turn her around and she'll stop trying to control every aspect of your shared life. But that's not going to happen, because in her mind, nobody can ever be truly trusted, and it's just her behaviour that's keeping you from doing whatever it is she fears.
You're being an enabler in this relationship. It's not going to get better. In fact, it's going to end, probably bitterly, and probably within another year or two at most. You don't deserve any of this. You love her for about half of what she is, and she only loves you as long as you fill a particular set of needs. It's a dysfunctional situation, and at some point you're going to have to stop digging the hole and climb out of it. It'll be painful, but your future self will thank you. Maybe her future self will too.
posted by pipeski at 6:11 AM on October 24, 2016 [9 favorites]
So she snoops on your social media, yells and criticizes, is mean to you, and physically assaults you.
You realize that just the snooping on its own would normally have everyone here screaming "DTMFA"? And if she'd written this question about herself everyone would be telling her she'd done the unforgivable and didn't deserve to be in a relationship? And that's BEFORE you get to the criticism (level one), the meanness (level two) and the physical assault (level three).
This is not a couples counselling level problem. This is a breaking up level problem. If you marry her she will have carte blanche to abuse you in whatever way she likes, including physical abuse. If she gets pregnant at any moment, before or after the wedding, she will be able to emotionally blackmail you for the rest of your life.
Of course it will not get better. Your "pathological" tendencies to put up with stuff are not a good reason to go through with a wedding to someone who has BEEN ON HER BEST BEHAVIOUR THIS ENTIRE TIME. If she got worse after your engagement, that's not surprising. I will bet all the money I will earn for the rest of my life that after the wedding, she will get worse than you can imagine right now.
I agree with what others have said that you can't work through stuff that one half of the couple doesn't want to work through. If one person isn't cooperating, that is always the point at which you are flogging a dead horse. But that isn't even the biggest problem. The actual problem is that your fiancée is abusive.
I get that you love her, but she's not relationship material, and you are not going to be able to change her to make it work. Unless you want to live like this and worse for the rest of your life, get out now and don't look back. I do not say this lightly.
Sorry, it sucks.
posted by tel3path at 6:14 AM on October 24, 2016 [17 favorites]
You realize that just the snooping on its own would normally have everyone here screaming "DTMFA"? And if she'd written this question about herself everyone would be telling her she'd done the unforgivable and didn't deserve to be in a relationship? And that's BEFORE you get to the criticism (level one), the meanness (level two) and the physical assault (level three).
This is not a couples counselling level problem. This is a breaking up level problem. If you marry her she will have carte blanche to abuse you in whatever way she likes, including physical abuse. If she gets pregnant at any moment, before or after the wedding, she will be able to emotionally blackmail you for the rest of your life.
Of course it will not get better. Your "pathological" tendencies to put up with stuff are not a good reason to go through with a wedding to someone who has BEEN ON HER BEST BEHAVIOUR THIS ENTIRE TIME. If she got worse after your engagement, that's not surprising. I will bet all the money I will earn for the rest of my life that after the wedding, she will get worse than you can imagine right now.
I agree with what others have said that you can't work through stuff that one half of the couple doesn't want to work through. If one person isn't cooperating, that is always the point at which you are flogging a dead horse. But that isn't even the biggest problem. The actual problem is that your fiancée is abusive.
I get that you love her, but she's not relationship material, and you are not going to be able to change her to make it work. Unless you want to live like this and worse for the rest of your life, get out now and don't look back. I do not say this lightly.
Sorry, it sucks.
posted by tel3path at 6:14 AM on October 24, 2016 [17 favorites]
After only reading point 1, I'm already on the "do not marry her" side. Reading the rest just confirmed it. And I think you know that, because you made this list, and you're asking this question. You just want other people to tell you to break off the engagement, so here we all are...
posted by easternblot at 6:23 AM on October 24, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by easternblot at 6:23 AM on October 24, 2016 [2 favorites]
I can't offer a lot of advice because I am terrible at relationships. However, as a person who also works 24 hour shifts (sometimes with mandatory callbacks), I can tell you from previous experience (my ex-husband also didn't do well with my shift work, and none of my ex-boyfriends did, either) that if a partner isn't okay with your work schedule at the beginning, it will only get worse. It's hard to find people who are okay with major shiftwork and it kind of limits relationship options, so make sure your partner doesn't have a issue with that before moving out of the casual phase.
posted by sara is disenchanted at 6:26 AM on October 24, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by sara is disenchanted at 6:26 AM on October 24, 2016 [3 favorites]
As part of a health class curriculum I teach the last session is on healthy relationships. You just hit about 5 of the warning signs of an unhealthy or abusive relationship.
posted by raccoon409 at 6:34 AM on October 24, 2016 [10 favorites]
posted by raccoon409 at 6:34 AM on October 24, 2016 [10 favorites]
I almost wonder if I have commitment issues and I'm looking for a green light to leave the relationship? Like maybe I'm subconsciously baiting her into fighting with me so I can create a toxic environment?
This adds to my worry for you, as I can see this line of thought leading you to the conclusion that you need to "master" your commitment issues by sticking with this person no matter what. Please don't do this. I don't know whether you have commitment issues or not, but that is something to work out with a counselor, and is entirely separate from what's going on in this situation. Her going through your phone, yelling at you and shoving you, making you feel you can't go out with your friends, and everything else you describe is not because you're baiting her into fights.
You are absolutely right that this is a toxic environment, but the solution to that is to get out - not to look for ways to blame yourself for this.
posted by DingoMutt at 6:37 AM on October 24, 2016 [9 favorites]
This adds to my worry for you, as I can see this line of thought leading you to the conclusion that you need to "master" your commitment issues by sticking with this person no matter what. Please don't do this. I don't know whether you have commitment issues or not, but that is something to work out with a counselor, and is entirely separate from what's going on in this situation. Her going through your phone, yelling at you and shoving you, making you feel you can't go out with your friends, and everything else you describe is not because you're baiting her into fights.
You are absolutely right that this is a toxic environment, but the solution to that is to get out - not to look for ways to blame yourself for this.
posted by DingoMutt at 6:37 AM on October 24, 2016 [9 favorites]
Three words: run like hell.
posted by MexicanYenta at 7:16 AM on October 24, 2016 [14 favorites]
posted by MexicanYenta at 7:16 AM on October 24, 2016 [14 favorites]
Anecdotal report that may be relevant: I dated somebody who had some of the behaviors you describe. As the relationship progressed, I felt myself walking on eggshells trying to avoid triggering the landmines that I had learned were hidden here and there.
When I left that relationship, I felt a sense of lightness, freedom, and optimism. It was not easy, but it was the best decision for me.
Only you can decide whether this is your relationship "no matter what", or whether these things you have described are deal breakers.
posted by theorique at 7:47 AM on October 24, 2016 [10 favorites]
When I left that relationship, I felt a sense of lightness, freedom, and optimism. It was not easy, but it was the best decision for me.
Only you can decide whether this is your relationship "no matter what", or whether these things you have described are deal breakers.
posted by theorique at 7:47 AM on October 24, 2016 [10 favorites]
Things that will almost certainly happen if you stay:
-- you will realise that even if you had been open to the idea of having children, that idea is totally off the table thanks to this person
-- you will end up isolated. Part of it will be because of her bizarre behaviour, which will lead people to give up on being friends with you as a couple, and part of it will be her small child's level of neediness
-- you will spend a lot of time apologizing for her, making excuses for her, missing things because of her
-- the 'f you' and physical aggression will escalate; you have already made clear that you are okay with being treated like that and there isn't really any going back
> Like maybe I'm subconsciously baiting her into fighting with me so I can create a toxic environment?
Emotionally healthy people would leave, or at least postpone the wedding and look for professional help, in response.
> I just know I'm very confused at why & how quickly the relationship has turned sour since we've become engaged.
Presumably she was on her very best behaviour at the start. As the commitment level ratchets up, the reason to fake a pleasant persona decreases.
posted by kmennie at 7:48 AM on October 24, 2016 [5 favorites]
-- you will realise that even if you had been open to the idea of having children, that idea is totally off the table thanks to this person
-- you will end up isolated. Part of it will be because of her bizarre behaviour, which will lead people to give up on being friends with you as a couple, and part of it will be her small child's level of neediness
-- you will spend a lot of time apologizing for her, making excuses for her, missing things because of her
-- the 'f you' and physical aggression will escalate; you have already made clear that you are okay with being treated like that and there isn't really any going back
> Like maybe I'm subconsciously baiting her into fighting with me so I can create a toxic environment?
Emotionally healthy people would leave, or at least postpone the wedding and look for professional help, in response.
> I just know I'm very confused at why & how quickly the relationship has turned sour since we've become engaged.
Presumably she was on her very best behaviour at the start. As the commitment level ratchets up, the reason to fake a pleasant persona decreases.
posted by kmennie at 7:48 AM on October 24, 2016 [5 favorites]
This whole question makes it pretty obvious you don't like this person. Why would you marry someone you don't like?
posted by xingcat at 8:05 AM on October 24, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by xingcat at 8:05 AM on October 24, 2016 [2 favorites]
Like maybe I'm subconsciously baiting her into fighting with me so I can create a toxic environment?
I really, really doubt that you have an evil subconscious. However, you might be picking fights with her because you are thinking maybe it's desirable to break up with her.
posted by puddledork at 8:06 AM on October 24, 2016 [2 favorites]
I really, really doubt that you have an evil subconscious. However, you might be picking fights with her because you are thinking maybe it's desirable to break up with her.
posted by puddledork at 8:06 AM on October 24, 2016 [2 favorites]
I almost wonder if I have commitment issues and I'm looking for a green light to leave the relationship?
I mean, clearly, yes. More than that, you picked a relationship and a woman with whom you could not possibly succeed. You describe yourself as "avoidant" and not as if you just figured it out, and then list all these qualities in your fiancee that are custom-tailored to drive you away, and then ask how to tell her she's needy (not how to tell her you're avoidant. Which I understand, because avoidance.)
It's like if you said, 'I am clinically claustrophobic and have signed a lease to live in a small bathroom closet. Lately I am concerned because although I am capable of sleeping standing up, I prefer a closet at least six feet long so that I can lie down at night. Should I confront my landlord? Or even... move?'
to both questions, real and imaginary, YES, say something already, but also don't fuck with people by starting something you know you'll never follow through with. This woman sounds like she would aggravate anybody but for you, she is the key to the lock of all your issues and picking someone intolerable to commit to so that you get the pleasure of pretending permanence but know all the while that you not only can leave, but have to leave (with regret and heartbreak!) is classic avoidance. classic classic classic. which you already know about yourself.
If you actually want to consciously fix what you set up, realize that your avoidance is as apparent to her as her clinginess and suspicion are to you, and they fortify and sustain each other. The rational response from her, knowing that you started mentally edging out of the relationship as soon as you proposed, would be to cut her losses and leave rather than humiliate herself by holding on as hard as possible. But that would be the rational response from you, too.
posted by queenofbithynia at 8:10 AM on October 24, 2016 [14 favorites]
I mean, clearly, yes. More than that, you picked a relationship and a woman with whom you could not possibly succeed. You describe yourself as "avoidant" and not as if you just figured it out, and then list all these qualities in your fiancee that are custom-tailored to drive you away, and then ask how to tell her she's needy (not how to tell her you're avoidant. Which I understand, because avoidance.)
It's like if you said, 'I am clinically claustrophobic and have signed a lease to live in a small bathroom closet. Lately I am concerned because although I am capable of sleeping standing up, I prefer a closet at least six feet long so that I can lie down at night. Should I confront my landlord? Or even... move?'
to both questions, real and imaginary, YES, say something already, but also don't fuck with people by starting something you know you'll never follow through with. This woman sounds like she would aggravate anybody but for you, she is the key to the lock of all your issues and picking someone intolerable to commit to so that you get the pleasure of pretending permanence but know all the while that you not only can leave, but have to leave (with regret and heartbreak!) is classic avoidance. classic classic classic. which you already know about yourself.
If you actually want to consciously fix what you set up, realize that your avoidance is as apparent to her as her clinginess and suspicion are to you, and they fortify and sustain each other. The rational response from her, knowing that you started mentally edging out of the relationship as soon as you proposed, would be to cut her losses and leave rather than humiliate herself by holding on as hard as possible. But that would be the rational response from you, too.
posted by queenofbithynia at 8:10 AM on October 24, 2016 [14 favorites]
The behavior you describe are classic signs that will lead to emotional and physical abuse, if she isn't outright abusive already: severe fear of abandonment leading to invasive and controlling behavior, trampling over your boundaries. Whirlwind romance to snag you, then warm and cold attempts to separate you from friends/family/support, controlling you with extremes of emotional volatility and stress, plus gaslighting--where she will act like everything is normal, even though the night before she was ready to stab your eyes out. She is a drowning person, who will claw fiercely to whichever floating thing for dear life, and you, unfortunately, are it.
She picked you for your "avoidant" personality, your inability to say no, your inability to draw a firm line. Don't let yourself be trapped into that crazy--deal with your issues, and get out. Reach out to whoever can support you, find a therapist, and start to resolve that visceral fear of causing a conflict. Protect yourself. You can do it.
posted by enlivener at 8:20 AM on October 24, 2016 [7 favorites]
She picked you for your "avoidant" personality, your inability to say no, your inability to draw a firm line. Don't let yourself be trapped into that crazy--deal with your issues, and get out. Reach out to whoever can support you, find a therapist, and start to resolve that visceral fear of causing a conflict. Protect yourself. You can do it.
posted by enlivener at 8:20 AM on October 24, 2016 [7 favorites]
It's like she wants to pretend that everything is OK and it's full speed ahead with wedding planning and house searching less than 12 hours after threatening to end the engagement herself.
Armchair psychiatrist (IANAD) says she's not happy with the relationship either, really, but she is super enthusiastic about having a wedding. She knows she screwed up last night and is trying to patch up her dream wedding by working on the logistics. It's not so much that the relationship is bipolar as that the wedding is taking a life of its own, something that she can succeed at without having to have a successful relationship.
Last night you had a drunken fight. Today, tell her (in a calm, sober situation) that you don't feel good about the relationship, and while you appreciate all the work she's doing for the wedding, you want to be sure she doesn't send out the SaveTheDates until both of you are feeling 100% confident and have had a consistent improvement in the way you communicate and respectful treatment of each other. You're asking for mature work on the relationship, and you're setting the wedding in the context of your relationship, instead of in the context of throwing a better party than the Joneses.
posted by aimedwander at 8:28 AM on October 24, 2016 [6 favorites]
Armchair psychiatrist (IANAD) says she's not happy with the relationship either, really, but she is super enthusiastic about having a wedding. She knows she screwed up last night and is trying to patch up her dream wedding by working on the logistics. It's not so much that the relationship is bipolar as that the wedding is taking a life of its own, something that she can succeed at without having to have a successful relationship.
Last night you had a drunken fight. Today, tell her (in a calm, sober situation) that you don't feel good about the relationship, and while you appreciate all the work she's doing for the wedding, you want to be sure she doesn't send out the SaveTheDates until both of you are feeling 100% confident and have had a consistent improvement in the way you communicate and respectful treatment of each other. You're asking for mature work on the relationship, and you're setting the wedding in the context of your relationship, instead of in the context of throwing a better party than the Joneses.
posted by aimedwander at 8:28 AM on October 24, 2016 [6 favorites]
I should add, I don't expect that conversation to go well, but it sounds like it's important to you to try, not just DTMFA, so I'm giving you suggestions for trying. If that flops, then yes, you have officially tried, you gave her warning, and you can call it off.
posted by aimedwander at 8:30 AM on October 24, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by aimedwander at 8:30 AM on October 24, 2016 [1 favorite]
Therefore it's up to me & her to resolve these issues ASAP.
No, it isn't. Her issues are hers to resolve. A therapist is there to help the client not reinvent the wheel, and to direct the process. You are not a therapist, and even if you were you can't be treating your own SO. Her problems are yours insofar as you take them on as she puts them on you, and you don't have to take them on. In this case in particular, you shouldn't. She doesn't want to change, and you can't make her. Her behavior will not improve when you get married - do you want to live your married life the way you are living your engaged life? You need to get over your avoidant tendencies long enough to break up with her.
posted by rtha at 8:32 AM on October 24, 2016 [13 favorites]
No, it isn't. Her issues are hers to resolve. A therapist is there to help the client not reinvent the wheel, and to direct the process. You are not a therapist, and even if you were you can't be treating your own SO. Her problems are yours insofar as you take them on as she puts them on you, and you don't have to take them on. In this case in particular, you shouldn't. She doesn't want to change, and you can't make her. Her behavior will not improve when you get married - do you want to live your married life the way you are living your engaged life? You need to get over your avoidant tendencies long enough to break up with her.
posted by rtha at 8:32 AM on October 24, 2016 [13 favorites]
It is very hard to break up with someone you love at the advice of internet strangers, especially when you have lingering "It can be fixed" feelings. I've been told, "You're not ready to break up now. When you're ready, you'll be ready and it'll be easier."
Here's what you can do if you're not ready to break up:
-- "I need to talk to you. I have some feelings I'd like to work out with you and the help of a counselor. Why don't I take care of (these wedding tasks) so you have time to go with me. This is really important to me and I need to do this before I can get married." Any response like "What's the point?/Waste of time/lolwut" can be met with "This is a dealbreaker for me." Lots of couples do premarital counseling. It's also a good way to have awkward premarital discussions about things like prenups and what-ifs. Maybe she'll be more receptive if it sounds like another wedding task.
-- Take some time, not on the same day as the appointment, to have a date night. Maybe work on some wedding stuff for her beforehand. Take note of how you feel. Did you have fun? Did she have fun? Do you feel better or worse? Did you fight?
-- See a counselor on your own. Bring this post and talk about everything on the list.
Best wishes!
posted by meemzi at 8:39 AM on October 24, 2016 [4 favorites]
Here's what you can do if you're not ready to break up:
-- "I need to talk to you. I have some feelings I'd like to work out with you and the help of a counselor. Why don't I take care of (these wedding tasks) so you have time to go with me. This is really important to me and I need to do this before I can get married." Any response like "What's the point?/Waste of time/lolwut" can be met with "This is a dealbreaker for me." Lots of couples do premarital counseling. It's also a good way to have awkward premarital discussions about things like prenups and what-ifs. Maybe she'll be more receptive if it sounds like another wedding task.
-- Take some time, not on the same day as the appointment, to have a date night. Maybe work on some wedding stuff for her beforehand. Take note of how you feel. Did you have fun? Did she have fun? Do you feel better or worse? Did you fight?
-- See a counselor on your own. Bring this post and talk about everything on the list.
Best wishes!
posted by meemzi at 8:39 AM on October 24, 2016 [4 favorites]
You're being mistreated, and this kind dynamic does not tend to get better. When confronted, your partner reacts with anger and escalation instead of understanding. That's impossible to fix without a serious commitment on the part of the escalating party.
Simple advice: Don't be in a relationship where you're consistently mistreated. Leave.
I would go to a therapist either way, and take a long, hard look at your role in this, even if it's just the personality you selected, and how you set and communicate acceptable boundaries for yourself.
posted by cnc at 9:16 AM on October 24, 2016 [1 favorite]
Simple advice: Don't be in a relationship where you're consistently mistreated. Leave.
I would go to a therapist either way, and take a long, hard look at your role in this, even if it's just the personality you selected, and how you set and communicate acceptable boundaries for yourself.
posted by cnc at 9:16 AM on October 24, 2016 [1 favorite]
I haven't read all the responses so forgive me if I'm saying something that's already been said, but one thing I will point out is that these are not RELATIONSHIP ISSUES and they are not something you can work on together. These are her personal issues that she is bringing to the relationship--with obvious negative impacts. And it doesn't sound like she's interested in working on them individually, so I'm not sure there's much fixing you can do from your end.
posted by drlith at 9:20 AM on October 24, 2016 [5 favorites]
posted by drlith at 9:20 AM on October 24, 2016 [5 favorites]
You need to speak up BEFORE she sends those "Save the date" notices. You don't have to explain or describe all or even many of the issues right up front. You can say," I don't want to send those save-the-dates or make any more plans before we work out some problems." Of course she will react very emotionally; stay calm and stick to that message. Just paraphrase and repeat. A lot of what you've written is loosely covered by the statement, "I want to be treated with kindness and respect. I want you to speak to me and treat me as you'd like to be treated." You could say that, or some of it, but don't start in on specifics.
I strongly suggest that you go for at least a couple of counseling sessions yourself to help you develop respect for your own wants and needs. I also think it would be best if both of you go to counseling together, if only to have a referee who'll make sure you get to say what's important to you.
posted by wryly at 9:39 AM on October 24, 2016 [2 favorites]
I strongly suggest that you go for at least a couple of counseling sessions yourself to help you develop respect for your own wants and needs. I also think it would be best if both of you go to counseling together, if only to have a referee who'll make sure you get to say what's important to you.
posted by wryly at 9:39 AM on October 24, 2016 [2 favorites]
The question that I wished I had been encouraged to ask myself , before my marriage and divorce, was:
It's possible for both of you to grow. But you might grow faster if you treat this as an experience that you learn from by running away.
posted by xueexueg at 9:47 AM on October 24, 2016 [12 favorites]
What do you imagine it would be like to divorce this person?As bad as our fights were, our divorce played out in many of the same ways, except we also had to involve expensive, innocent intermediaries just to spread around our previously private toxicity.
It's possible for both of you to grow. But you might grow faster if you treat this as an experience that you learn from by running away.
posted by xueexueg at 9:47 AM on October 24, 2016 [12 favorites]
I have been nothing but faithful to this woman
I told her that she is one of the meanest and most critical people I've ever met
I do genuinely love this woman
I am not sure I agree that her behavior falls on the abusive side of the bad behaviour/abuse divide, though I could well be wrong (certainly any further touching-in-anger would be an unquestionable leave-now relationship exploder, doesn't matter if it hurts you physically, you're right about that.) but please, look at the quoted lines. You are getting all this support and sympathy here and it's not undeserved, but if she has friends to talk to, they are telling her she is being jerked around, gaslighted, and being played for a fool. She is getting the loud and clear message that you love her even though she is a monster and a mess. that is not an excuse for her but it is an excruciatingly clear explanation.
You trust someone who loves you if you are psychologically healthy, which she seems not to be. But if you are psychologically healthy, you also don't assume that someone who talks to and about you this way really loves you. She is going bananas because she has no healthy ways to cope with the dissonance between what she wants to believe and what is clearly happening.
posted by queenofbithynia at 9:51 AM on October 24, 2016 [4 favorites]
I told her that she is one of the meanest and most critical people I've ever met
I do genuinely love this woman
I am not sure I agree that her behavior falls on the abusive side of the bad behaviour/abuse divide, though I could well be wrong (certainly any further touching-in-anger would be an unquestionable leave-now relationship exploder, doesn't matter if it hurts you physically, you're right about that.) but please, look at the quoted lines. You are getting all this support and sympathy here and it's not undeserved, but if she has friends to talk to, they are telling her she is being jerked around, gaslighted, and being played for a fool. She is getting the loud and clear message that you love her even though she is a monster and a mess. that is not an excuse for her but it is an excruciatingly clear explanation.
You trust someone who loves you if you are psychologically healthy, which she seems not to be. But if you are psychologically healthy, you also don't assume that someone who talks to and about you this way really loves you. She is going bananas because she has no healthy ways to cope with the dissonance between what she wants to believe and what is clearly happening.
posted by queenofbithynia at 9:51 AM on October 24, 2016 [4 favorites]
Oh. My God.
If you think the engagement and the marriage planning is rough, I will guarantee the marriage is going to be HELL!!
Please end this now.
posted by BlueHorse at 10:37 AM on October 24, 2016 [3 favorites]
If you think the engagement and the marriage planning is rough, I will guarantee the marriage is going to be HELL!!
Please end this now.
posted by BlueHorse at 10:37 AM on October 24, 2016 [3 favorites]
Sit down with her when she is calm and have a polite discussion in which you ask the question "Hey, what's going on here?" Listen closely to her answer.
I believe you when you say you love her. I also believe that your love is true and selfless, because you are apparently putting up with a lot. She has issues that you may be able to talk through, and perhaps they need a professional to work through properly.
I don't believe you would have asked this question if your hearts desire was to cut-and-run. It is still an option, as is divorce or annulment if you both agree that you have made a mistake.
Fighting is normal within a relationship, and (to borrow a line from mathematician John Gottman) it can be healthy when it airs legitimate grievances. It seems like the grievances she bears toward you stem from her past, and have little correspondence with your behavior. It seems like your major grievance is that you can't be honest with her about your feelings. Should you get married, both of these situations will undermine the bond you should strive to form.
Marriage is hard work. It can be intensely rewarding, and it can be soul-drainingly frustrating. Try treating her with compassion, because in so doing you are actually demonstrating self-compassion. Ask her politely if she has ever been diagnosed with bipolar disorder, because you use the term to describe your relationship, but, in my non-expert opinion as someone who has a bipolar parent, the similarities in behavior are pretty striking.
posted by Mr. Fig at 10:39 AM on October 24, 2016
I believe you when you say you love her. I also believe that your love is true and selfless, because you are apparently putting up with a lot. She has issues that you may be able to talk through, and perhaps they need a professional to work through properly.
I don't believe you would have asked this question if your hearts desire was to cut-and-run. It is still an option, as is divorce or annulment if you both agree that you have made a mistake.
Fighting is normal within a relationship, and (to borrow a line from mathematician John Gottman) it can be healthy when it airs legitimate grievances. It seems like the grievances she bears toward you stem from her past, and have little correspondence with your behavior. It seems like your major grievance is that you can't be honest with her about your feelings. Should you get married, both of these situations will undermine the bond you should strive to form.
Marriage is hard work. It can be intensely rewarding, and it can be soul-drainingly frustrating. Try treating her with compassion, because in so doing you are actually demonstrating self-compassion. Ask her politely if she has ever been diagnosed with bipolar disorder, because you use the term to describe your relationship, but, in my non-expert opinion as someone who has a bipolar parent, the similarities in behavior are pretty striking.
posted by Mr. Fig at 10:39 AM on October 24, 2016
I don't understand why you'd do that to yourself.
Make your excuses and leave.
posted by flabdablet at 11:31 AM on October 24, 2016 [3 favorites]
Make your excuses and leave.
posted by flabdablet at 11:31 AM on October 24, 2016 [3 favorites]
Respectfully, it is incredibly unwise to get married because you're thinking that well, you can always get a divorce or annulment if it doesn't work out. Annulment is not readily available in most jurisdictions except under pretty narrow circumstances, and divorce is awful.
I'm just going to echo what almost everyone else said, and also what I said last time you asked this question: what you're describing here is way, way outside the bounds of what you would see as conflict in an otherwise healthy relationship. It sucks to hear this and sucks even more to do -- I know, I really do -- but you have to call off the wedding and break off the relationship entirely. What you're describing here is not fixable. This relationship is toxic for both of you, period.
posted by holborne at 11:39 AM on October 24, 2016 [4 favorites]
I'm just going to echo what almost everyone else said, and also what I said last time you asked this question: what you're describing here is way, way outside the bounds of what you would see as conflict in an otherwise healthy relationship. It sucks to hear this and sucks even more to do -- I know, I really do -- but you have to call off the wedding and break off the relationship entirely. What you're describing here is not fixable. This relationship is toxic for both of you, period.
posted by holborne at 11:39 AM on October 24, 2016 [4 favorites]
oh, honey, no. when someone is not mentally healthy and refuses to see it and get help for them then you can walk away with a clear conscience. write up a list of all the "red flag" things she has done and keep it with you to remind you that you are making the right decision.
posted by dawkins_7 at 12:16 PM on October 24, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by dawkins_7 at 12:16 PM on October 24, 2016 [1 favorite]
Please look out for your own mental health and safety. This is abuse. Don't get trapped in this cycle, please!
posted by mrcrow at 12:42 PM on October 24, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by mrcrow at 12:42 PM on October 24, 2016 [3 favorites]
Dood this is like apocalyptic four horsemen type deal breaker ground you're on. This is a really good Gottmann interview and they say a lot of things you might be interested in hearing re marriage and couples.
I hear you, that you love this person, but for me, its time to pump the brakes and take a hard look at what kind of a marriage you envision for yourself. Because it will be bumpy at times, but couples that share the same values (are in harmony etc.) and work as a team find that the majority of problems they face will come from the outside, instead of from within the relationship. You need her to have your back, like you have hers.
Like ani difranco says, i don't like to think of love as war. Theres gotta be a whole lotta more good than bad, and you're not doing her any favors either by sitting tight in the trenches.
posted by speakeasy at 12:46 PM on October 24, 2016 [4 favorites]
I hear you, that you love this person, but for me, its time to pump the brakes and take a hard look at what kind of a marriage you envision for yourself. Because it will be bumpy at times, but couples that share the same values (are in harmony etc.) and work as a team find that the majority of problems they face will come from the outside, instead of from within the relationship. You need her to have your back, like you have hers.
Like ani difranco says, i don't like to think of love as war. Theres gotta be a whole lotta more good than bad, and you're not doing her any favors either by sitting tight in the trenches.
posted by speakeasy at 12:46 PM on October 24, 2016 [4 favorites]
In addition to imagining what this woman will be like to divorce, please also try to imagine what she will be like to co-parent with in the event of a split - plenty of abusive partners (of both genders) engineer "accidental" pregnancies to trap their partners more effectively if they look like leaving them. I would be SUPER careful with contraception once she knows you're having doubts about the relationship.
posted by tinkletown at 2:30 PM on October 24, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by tinkletown at 2:30 PM on October 24, 2016 [2 favorites]
I have a pathological tendency to hide my true feelings when I know that expressing them may result in relationship turmoil.
Not excusing her behaviour (there's clearly no excuse) but the above is pretty much the worst thing for someone who is so very insecure in their attachment style. It sounds like as much as you love each other, this is a pretty toxic pairing.
I also want to reiterate that when someone shows you who they are, believe them. I didn't, and while I'm still with my husband, it's been one hell of a slog. We've made a lot of progress but that doesn't undo all the pain he's caused me along the way - I wish I hadn't ignored the flags.
Break it off... for both your sakes.
posted by Lamb_Chop at 3:21 PM on October 24, 2016 [4 favorites]
Not excusing her behaviour (there's clearly no excuse) but the above is pretty much the worst thing for someone who is so very insecure in their attachment style. It sounds like as much as you love each other, this is a pretty toxic pairing.
I also want to reiterate that when someone shows you who they are, believe them. I didn't, and while I'm still with my husband, it's been one hell of a slog. We've made a lot of progress but that doesn't undo all the pain he's caused me along the way - I wish I hadn't ignored the flags.
Break it off... for both your sakes.
posted by Lamb_Chop at 3:21 PM on October 24, 2016 [4 favorites]
Nthing be VERY CAREFUL with birth control right now, until this is resolved. You may well end up hating this woman, and believe me, having a kid together sure fucking doesn't make anything easier.
posted by tristeza at 4:08 PM on October 24, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by tristeza at 4:08 PM on October 24, 2016 [3 favorites]
Get out get out get out. This won't get better. It will get worse, and she will get her hooks in deeper and make it harder for you to leave.
After you get out, get some therapy.
posted by bile and syntax at 4:18 PM on October 24, 2016 [1 favorite]
After you get out, get some therapy.
posted by bile and syntax at 4:18 PM on October 24, 2016 [1 favorite]
I admit that I dreaded clicking the link because it did not sound good at all. So here is my reply to your wall of text:
You can love someone VERY deeply but they may not be good for you, at all.
I am a child of a marriage with the toxicity of control, passivity rolled in with love that you describe. It was horrible. That marriage had a horrible impact on the children and grandchildren that resonates with dysfunction to this day. I am not sure if that kind of marriage, like the curse of the Atreides goes to the 4th generation or not, but it is bad.
Get out. Your future children and grandchildren want you to rescue yourself and them. Get out.
posted by jadepearl at 5:02 PM on October 24, 2016 [6 favorites]
You can love someone VERY deeply but they may not be good for you, at all.
I am a child of a marriage with the toxicity of control, passivity rolled in with love that you describe. It was horrible. That marriage had a horrible impact on the children and grandchildren that resonates with dysfunction to this day. I am not sure if that kind of marriage, like the curse of the Atreides goes to the 4th generation or not, but it is bad.
Get out. Your future children and grandchildren want you to rescue yourself and them. Get out.
posted by jadepearl at 5:02 PM on October 24, 2016 [6 favorites]
Please consider what advice you would give a female friend if she were to ask you this question about her boyfriend.
If you find yourself protesting that swapping the genders changes something fundamental about the situation, try to justify that asymmetry. Female-on-male domestic abuse is real domestic abuse.
posted by d. z. wang at 6:42 PM on October 24, 2016 [4 favorites]
If you find yourself protesting that swapping the genders changes something fundamental about the situation, try to justify that asymmetry. Female-on-male domestic abuse is real domestic abuse.
posted by d. z. wang at 6:42 PM on October 24, 2016 [4 favorites]
I swear I could've written this same exact question a few months ago.
Like you I was already engaged (maybe in the 7th month of being together) to be married to someone that I really loved (or so I thought). I decided to not only call of the engagement but the relationship also because I could not, for the life of me, understand how the sort of behavior you describe, could be considered normal or healthy for a well functioning relationship. I did not want to raise my kids in an environment that was so toxic, nor did I want to put myself through the mental torture and abuse.
Moments like these, where you are faced with a binary decision, are the ones that will alter the course of your life in ways that you cannot comprehend right now because you are in the throes of it. Please be rational for the sake of your future self and for the sake of your children and for the sake of your fiancé, and exit this relationship.
I can assure you that if you love or like this woman, that it will be the hardest thing you'll ever do. But please do not start a family or marry this person.
posted by rippersid at 7:25 PM on October 24, 2016 [4 favorites]
Like you I was already engaged (maybe in the 7th month of being together) to be married to someone that I really loved (or so I thought). I decided to not only call of the engagement but the relationship also because I could not, for the life of me, understand how the sort of behavior you describe, could be considered normal or healthy for a well functioning relationship. I did not want to raise my kids in an environment that was so toxic, nor did I want to put myself through the mental torture and abuse.
Moments like these, where you are faced with a binary decision, are the ones that will alter the course of your life in ways that you cannot comprehend right now because you are in the throes of it. Please be rational for the sake of your future self and for the sake of your children and for the sake of your fiancé, and exit this relationship.
I can assure you that if you love or like this woman, that it will be the hardest thing you'll ever do. But please do not start a family or marry this person.
posted by rippersid at 7:25 PM on October 24, 2016 [4 favorites]
It's actually really simple. How long do you want to be unhappy for? A) A few days, while you pull the pin and sort the mess. B) The rest of your life, with the added bonus of potentially having children to be abused alongside you.
posted by Jubey at 9:11 PM on October 24, 2016 [7 favorites]
posted by Jubey at 9:11 PM on October 24, 2016 [7 favorites]
You are not good for each other.
Do NOT get married. In fact, even if you don't want to break up yet, I would strongly suggest suspending the relationship and going no-contact for a long time - like six months.
During that six months, YOU go to therapy and work on you. Examine the things you already know about yourself--you describe yourself as "avoidant," etc - and work to understand what you want and what you need for your own life and in a romantic partnership.
I strongly suspect that your conclusion will be "not her or anyone who behaves like her," but you don't have to decide that right now.
An ex-girlfriend can go out of your life forever. It's a lot harder when it's an ex-spouse.
Be kind to Future You and don't shackle him to someone who makes him miserable.
posted by oblique red at 10:08 AM on October 25, 2016 [1 favorite]
Do NOT get married. In fact, even if you don't want to break up yet, I would strongly suggest suspending the relationship and going no-contact for a long time - like six months.
During that six months, YOU go to therapy and work on you. Examine the things you already know about yourself--you describe yourself as "avoidant," etc - and work to understand what you want and what you need for your own life and in a romantic partnership.
I strongly suspect that your conclusion will be "not her or anyone who behaves like her," but you don't have to decide that right now.
An ex-girlfriend can go out of your life forever. It's a lot harder when it's an ex-spouse.
Be kind to Future You and don't shackle him to someone who makes him miserable.
posted by oblique red at 10:08 AM on October 25, 2016 [1 favorite]
You posted the same thing last month, right? And everyone told you to run.
I wonder if you're asking this exact question again, not because you are unclear on how terrible your relationship is and what a bad, self-sabotaging idea marrying her would be, but because you just don't know how to get from "we're engaged and she's busy planning" to "the sweet silent relief of getting TFO."
Carefully envision how much of a relief it's going to be to have this over. Not having her reactions be your problem, not having her anger be your problem, never having a romantic partner call you names ever again. Nice, right? Now, do you live together? If you do, get your important stuff together now and moved to a hotel; then come back later and have the conversation. If not, that's easier. Go to her house tonight and say "You have many wonderful qualities but we just don't match well. We bring out the worst in each other. It isn't a good foundation for a marriage. I dont' want a lifetime of this poor match. I'm calling it off." and leave.
posted by fingersandtoes at 4:57 PM on October 25, 2016 [2 favorites]
I wonder if you're asking this exact question again, not because you are unclear on how terrible your relationship is and what a bad, self-sabotaging idea marrying her would be, but because you just don't know how to get from "we're engaged and she's busy planning" to "the sweet silent relief of getting TFO."
Carefully envision how much of a relief it's going to be to have this over. Not having her reactions be your problem, not having her anger be your problem, never having a romantic partner call you names ever again. Nice, right? Now, do you live together? If you do, get your important stuff together now and moved to a hotel; then come back later and have the conversation. If not, that's easier. Go to her house tonight and say "You have many wonderful qualities but we just don't match well. We bring out the worst in each other. It isn't a good foundation for a marriage. I dont' want a lifetime of this poor match. I'm calling it off." and leave.
posted by fingersandtoes at 4:57 PM on October 25, 2016 [2 favorites]
For what it's worth, I was/am in a similar situation right now. Except we'd been together 2 years and owned a house and dogs together. I proposed and had a massive panic attack about the upcoming wedding (which was 3 months after the proposal - in 2 weeks from now in fact).
My partner is also pushy, controlling, confident in knowing what she wants, whereas I am relaxed and just want to live day to day life. When I told her I wanted to post-pone the wedding, she cursed me out, yelled at me etc but I just knew I couldn't go through with it. I don't know if it's her, the commitment or the loss of freedom. Either way, I wasn't happy to get married so I didn't. We said we'd work on our relationship and we're both seeing separate counselors (and she's realising that she does have a lot of issues herself) but she also absolutely refused to see a couples counselor (which was really important to me). I'm about to move out in 2 days time (temporarily/permanently? who knows) and I'm terrified of leaving her, my dogs and my life but I know that in the current circumstances, I need to get a clear head. I'm worrying myself sick, am stressed to the max (vomiting every day) and quite frankly that's no way to live.
If you want some "guidance" I suggest you read "Too Good to Leave, Too Bad to Stay: A Step-by-Step Guide to Help You Decide Whether to Stay In or Get Out of Your Relationship".
Having said that, I suggest you get out of your relationship asap. Spend time apart. If you find that you can't live without her and vice versa, you can always try again but it sounds like she needs to get real.
Feel free to private message me if you want to talk more about this...
posted by Sparwasser at 2:18 PM on November 2, 2016 [3 favorites]
My partner is also pushy, controlling, confident in knowing what she wants, whereas I am relaxed and just want to live day to day life. When I told her I wanted to post-pone the wedding, she cursed me out, yelled at me etc but I just knew I couldn't go through with it. I don't know if it's her, the commitment or the loss of freedom. Either way, I wasn't happy to get married so I didn't. We said we'd work on our relationship and we're both seeing separate counselors (and she's realising that she does have a lot of issues herself) but she also absolutely refused to see a couples counselor (which was really important to me). I'm about to move out in 2 days time (temporarily/permanently? who knows) and I'm terrified of leaving her, my dogs and my life but I know that in the current circumstances, I need to get a clear head. I'm worrying myself sick, am stressed to the max (vomiting every day) and quite frankly that's no way to live.
If you want some "guidance" I suggest you read "Too Good to Leave, Too Bad to Stay: A Step-by-Step Guide to Help You Decide Whether to Stay In or Get Out of Your Relationship".
Having said that, I suggest you get out of your relationship asap. Spend time apart. If you find that you can't live without her and vice versa, you can always try again but it sounds like she needs to get real.
Feel free to private message me if you want to talk more about this...
posted by Sparwasser at 2:18 PM on November 2, 2016 [3 favorites]
To clarify:
1). It was me that posted on how to manage a situation in which I discovered my fiance had been monitoring my facebook activity behind my back. Update: I did confront her behavior. Although she found a way to justify her behavior, she did promise to never browse my facebook, email, or phone activity without my permission again. At the time, I also suggested we postpone the wedding and focus our energy on resolving our issues but she made it clear that postponing is not an option. If I decided to postpone the wedding, she threatened to leave the relationship altogether. Because I didn't feel ready to lose her, I essentially dropped the postponement idea.
The facebook discovery was a definite turning point in the relationship for me. It was at this point that the rose-colored glasses came off and I become more fully in tune with the more negative aspects of our relationship that I describe above. Up until this point, I was either in denial or just decided to ignore all these negative features and was instead focusing on everything else that was going right with the relationship and how good it made me feel at the time. It is amazing how quickly my mindset has shifted from one of excitement and optimism to one of negativity and pessimism and ambivalence.
2). I want to genuinely apologize for the redundancy between this post and the facebook post (I also did an identical post yesterday that was thankfully deleted because I couldn't find the answers for this post until somebody put a link in the comments section of yesterday's post). As fingersandtoes pointed out, I felt the need to do a new post because now I was putting the entire relationship under the microscope as opposed to seeking advice for how to handle one specific incident. And obviously I'm no longer trying to decide between keeping vs. postponing the wedding date. Rather, I was trying to make a much more monumental decision: exit the relationship altogether vs. attempt to work through our issues through couples counseling.
I appreciate all the feedback. It is obvious that the overwhelming opinion for my sanity and hers is to go our separate ways. I'll admit I'm reluctantly coming to grips with this conclusion. It's just heartbreaking because I was so optimistic about our future together and it makes me sad to think of her no longer in my life. It terrifies me to even think of having that conversation with her. Although I speak about her in such a negative light lately, I do care about her and I think she genuinely cares about me. I think most of her issues stem from uncontrolled anxiety and past traumatic experiences. It's just so frustrating that she doesn't want to seek help for "her issues."
I guess the one question that remain swirling in my brain:
"How much am I to blame vs. how much is she to blame?" I feel like in every relationship one partner tries to dominate or control the other and it's up to the other to stand their ground and maintain their personal boundaries. Looking back, I was a pushover and let her essentially control the dynamics of the relationship. After the FB incident, I decided to stop being a pushover and start calling her out on her behavior and making my needs a priority. This is what caused the relationship turmoil to spike. I guess my fantasy is that one day I will meet a woman who will genuinely care about me, make a conscious effort to support my needs, trust me unconditionally, allow me personal space with friends on occasion, and desire to engage in a partnership built on mutual trust and respect. Does that person even exist in this world or am I being unrealistic? Maybe I'm just attracting the wrong type...
I promise no more posts on the subject...
posted by ThomasJefferson at 2:57 PM on November 3, 2016
1). It was me that posted on how to manage a situation in which I discovered my fiance had been monitoring my facebook activity behind my back. Update: I did confront her behavior. Although she found a way to justify her behavior, she did promise to never browse my facebook, email, or phone activity without my permission again. At the time, I also suggested we postpone the wedding and focus our energy on resolving our issues but she made it clear that postponing is not an option. If I decided to postpone the wedding, she threatened to leave the relationship altogether. Because I didn't feel ready to lose her, I essentially dropped the postponement idea.
The facebook discovery was a definite turning point in the relationship for me. It was at this point that the rose-colored glasses came off and I become more fully in tune with the more negative aspects of our relationship that I describe above. Up until this point, I was either in denial or just decided to ignore all these negative features and was instead focusing on everything else that was going right with the relationship and how good it made me feel at the time. It is amazing how quickly my mindset has shifted from one of excitement and optimism to one of negativity and pessimism and ambivalence.
2). I want to genuinely apologize for the redundancy between this post and the facebook post (I also did an identical post yesterday that was thankfully deleted because I couldn't find the answers for this post until somebody put a link in the comments section of yesterday's post). As fingersandtoes pointed out, I felt the need to do a new post because now I was putting the entire relationship under the microscope as opposed to seeking advice for how to handle one specific incident. And obviously I'm no longer trying to decide between keeping vs. postponing the wedding date. Rather, I was trying to make a much more monumental decision: exit the relationship altogether vs. attempt to work through our issues through couples counseling.
I appreciate all the feedback. It is obvious that the overwhelming opinion for my sanity and hers is to go our separate ways. I'll admit I'm reluctantly coming to grips with this conclusion. It's just heartbreaking because I was so optimistic about our future together and it makes me sad to think of her no longer in my life. It terrifies me to even think of having that conversation with her. Although I speak about her in such a negative light lately, I do care about her and I think she genuinely cares about me. I think most of her issues stem from uncontrolled anxiety and past traumatic experiences. It's just so frustrating that she doesn't want to seek help for "her issues."
I guess the one question that remain swirling in my brain:
"How much am I to blame vs. how much is she to blame?" I feel like in every relationship one partner tries to dominate or control the other and it's up to the other to stand their ground and maintain their personal boundaries. Looking back, I was a pushover and let her essentially control the dynamics of the relationship. After the FB incident, I decided to stop being a pushover and start calling her out on her behavior and making my needs a priority. This is what caused the relationship turmoil to spike. I guess my fantasy is that one day I will meet a woman who will genuinely care about me, make a conscious effort to support my needs, trust me unconditionally, allow me personal space with friends on occasion, and desire to engage in a partnership built on mutual trust and respect. Does that person even exist in this world or am I being unrealistic? Maybe I'm just attracting the wrong type...
I promise no more posts on the subject...
posted by ThomasJefferson at 2:57 PM on November 3, 2016
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posted by CMcG at 4:40 AM on October 24, 2016 [88 favorites]