Possible lead pipes in house problem - with a relationship twist.
October 17, 2016 6:39 AM Subscribe
We probably have lead pipes delivering our drinking water. We have been advised not to test the water, but just to assume we have lead in our water. My wife doesn't think it's a big deal and continues to use potentially-leaded water for everything. We have an infant, and even if we didn't I don't want lead in my food and coffee either. What do I do?
(I know the next step is to discuss this with my wife again, so this ask is in preparation for that discussion to make sure I’m not blowing things out of proportion and to make sure I have reasonable next steps for us.)
Our house was built in 1929 (we're in the USA). We moved in a little more than three years ago, and will probably sell in the next 10 years (possibly as soon as 2 years). The previous owners put in a serious water filtration system. We thought that was odd and mostly ignored it, but around the time the news about Flint, MI broke we had some plumbing work done and found lead pipes in the walls. Suddenly the filtration system made sense - this type of filter can remove lead from water, so they were probably worried about lead.
We aren't certain which pipes feed most of our faucets, particularly the one in the kitchen where we get most of our drinking water from, because the pipes are hidden in the walls and floor. So you would think the obvious thing to do would be get our water tested for lead. However, the realtor who helped us buy the house and will probably help us sell it advised us that we almost certainly have lead pipes (and paint, but paint isn't the focus of this Ask) in this house, and a positive test will make the house much harder to sell in the future and hurt our resale value. Here's why, at least as I understand it: currently (without a test) we are required to include a standard statement about how the house is old and may have lead pipes or paint. This is non-threatening because nearly every house in our area comes with the same warning. But if we have a positive test we would be legally required to disclose the positive test, which is much scarier and will hurt the resale value. So he says we're better off just assuming we have lead paint and lead pipes so we just have to say there's *possibly* lead in the house (which is what the previous owners were required to disclose - “possible”). This article says the realtor is correct about our responsibilities after a positive test (“and other lead hazards”).
In a sense it seems the right thing to do is to just do the test and take the resale value hit, but we're talking about losing tens of thousands of dollars on a house we will probably sell before we've been in it for a decade. I wish I could say we are so independently wealthy that losing tens of thousands of dollars on this house is okay, but that is a big hit that we need to carefully consider before we go that route.
So now the obvious solution is to use the filter water for drinking and cooking, and only use the tap for washing (and to keep all paint in good repair). I thought this was a great solution, but repeatedly I have see my wife use tap water to fill our Keurig reservoir and for making soup (which happened yesterday, prompting this question). I mentioned it again, but she gets defensive and later goes back to using the tap. I admit that using only the filtered water when I cook is a slight inconvenience, but when I have asked her if she would do me a favor by using the filtered water exclusively so we aren’t possibly ingesting lead she acts as if I am asking her to say a magic incantation - like it’s a silly, odd request based only on my preferences, not based on anything real. She seems to think it's a total non-issue, even though she’s a clinician and knows the dangers of lead ingestion. I don't know if she doesn't think there are letting the pipes, or if it's just not a problem that registers in her mind. I hope I'm not blowing this out proportion - I'm not panicked about the 3 years of leaded water we've drunk, and every once in a while I'll drink unfiltered water from a convenient tap. I just want us to be careful in the future so 3 years of possible lead exposure doesn't become 8 years of possible lead exposure, especially since our infant will be drinking water soon. I'm not particularly worried about lead through breastmilk, I imagine it would be such a tiny amount that it's not worth making a deal out of it, so my wife is free to do whatever she likes when she is the only one affected. (obviously I would prefer her to use the filtered water for herself too, but that’s up to her.)
Is my realtor right about a positive test being a big deal?
Should I worry less because anyone buying in our area is likely to run into lead problems, so a positive test won’t be a big hit?
Should we just do the test and take the hit when we sell? i.e., do the right thing even though all the previous owners never did the water test?
All I blowing this out of proportion? Is there a middle way/compromise I haven't thought of? Or is it reasonable for me to say “I would like us to use exclusively filtered water for drinking and cooking.”
(I know the next step is to discuss this with my wife again, so this ask is in preparation for that discussion to make sure I’m not blowing things out of proportion and to make sure I have reasonable next steps for us.)
Our house was built in 1929 (we're in the USA). We moved in a little more than three years ago, and will probably sell in the next 10 years (possibly as soon as 2 years). The previous owners put in a serious water filtration system. We thought that was odd and mostly ignored it, but around the time the news about Flint, MI broke we had some plumbing work done and found lead pipes in the walls. Suddenly the filtration system made sense - this type of filter can remove lead from water, so they were probably worried about lead.
We aren't certain which pipes feed most of our faucets, particularly the one in the kitchen where we get most of our drinking water from, because the pipes are hidden in the walls and floor. So you would think the obvious thing to do would be get our water tested for lead. However, the realtor who helped us buy the house and will probably help us sell it advised us that we almost certainly have lead pipes (and paint, but paint isn't the focus of this Ask) in this house, and a positive test will make the house much harder to sell in the future and hurt our resale value. Here's why, at least as I understand it: currently (without a test) we are required to include a standard statement about how the house is old and may have lead pipes or paint. This is non-threatening because nearly every house in our area comes with the same warning. But if we have a positive test we would be legally required to disclose the positive test, which is much scarier and will hurt the resale value. So he says we're better off just assuming we have lead paint and lead pipes so we just have to say there's *possibly* lead in the house (which is what the previous owners were required to disclose - “possible”). This article says the realtor is correct about our responsibilities after a positive test (“and other lead hazards”).
In a sense it seems the right thing to do is to just do the test and take the resale value hit, but we're talking about losing tens of thousands of dollars on a house we will probably sell before we've been in it for a decade. I wish I could say we are so independently wealthy that losing tens of thousands of dollars on this house is okay, but that is a big hit that we need to carefully consider before we go that route.
So now the obvious solution is to use the filter water for drinking and cooking, and only use the tap for washing (and to keep all paint in good repair). I thought this was a great solution, but repeatedly I have see my wife use tap water to fill our Keurig reservoir and for making soup (which happened yesterday, prompting this question). I mentioned it again, but she gets defensive and later goes back to using the tap. I admit that using only the filtered water when I cook is a slight inconvenience, but when I have asked her if she would do me a favor by using the filtered water exclusively so we aren’t possibly ingesting lead she acts as if I am asking her to say a magic incantation - like it’s a silly, odd request based only on my preferences, not based on anything real. She seems to think it's a total non-issue, even though she’s a clinician and knows the dangers of lead ingestion. I don't know if she doesn't think there are letting the pipes, or if it's just not a problem that registers in her mind. I hope I'm not blowing this out proportion - I'm not panicked about the 3 years of leaded water we've drunk, and every once in a while I'll drink unfiltered water from a convenient tap. I just want us to be careful in the future so 3 years of possible lead exposure doesn't become 8 years of possible lead exposure, especially since our infant will be drinking water soon. I'm not particularly worried about lead through breastmilk, I imagine it would be such a tiny amount that it's not worth making a deal out of it, so my wife is free to do whatever she likes when she is the only one affected. (obviously I would prefer her to use the filtered water for herself too, but that’s up to her.)
Is my realtor right about a positive test being a big deal?
Should I worry less because anyone buying in our area is likely to run into lead problems, so a positive test won’t be a big hit?
Should we just do the test and take the hit when we sell? i.e., do the right thing even though all the previous owners never did the water test?
All I blowing this out of proportion? Is there a middle way/compromise I haven't thought of? Or is it reasonable for me to say “I would like us to use exclusively filtered water for drinking and cooking.”
Testing water is cheap. If you have a good filter system it won't be as big of a house price hit as if you didn't. Lead is bad for adults, but it's a serious, undebatable problem for infants. In many states your baby will be tested for blood lead levels, and how much worse will it be if That's the way you find out about lead problems in your house? Because here in MA the health folks would investigate children with blood lead levels that exceed certain health levels.
Older pipes are often better about not leaching lead than new (they get mineral layers built up inside). Good filters work great. There are other best management practices that can help further reduce lead exposure (simple things like flushing the pipes each morning). This is one of those few environmental health problems where we've known since the Romans that it's bad for brains, and testing can show the impacts clearly in children. How much is your baby's health (and your own mental health in not having to worry about this for the next 10 years) worth? Thousands, certainly, especially knowing there are easy fixes!
posted by ldthomps at 6:55 AM on October 17, 2016 [7 favorites]
Older pipes are often better about not leaching lead than new (they get mineral layers built up inside). Good filters work great. There are other best management practices that can help further reduce lead exposure (simple things like flushing the pipes each morning). This is one of those few environmental health problems where we've known since the Romans that it's bad for brains, and testing can show the impacts clearly in children. How much is your baby's health (and your own mental health in not having to worry about this for the next 10 years) worth? Thousands, certainly, especially knowing there are easy fixes!
posted by ldthomps at 6:55 AM on October 17, 2016 [7 favorites]
Given how you can't remove heavy metals from the body, I think it's fully reasonable to require filtered water for drinking and cooking. However, if your wife is doing most of the cooking I think it's also your responsibility to do as much as possible to make using filtered water easy.
I lived in West Africa for two years and largely ignored warnings to not drink tap water because it was honestly that big of a difference in convenience for me. Granted, I had lowered consequences but habits are hard to break.
posted by raccoon409 at 6:57 AM on October 17, 2016 [2 favorites]
I lived in West Africa for two years and largely ignored warnings to not drink tap water because it was honestly that big of a difference in convenience for me. Granted, I had lowered consequences but habits are hard to break.
posted by raccoon409 at 6:57 AM on October 17, 2016 [2 favorites]
Is my realtor right about a positive test being a big deal?
Yes, it's a big deal. Doesn't matter if everyone else is in the same situation, it will become a negotiating point during your home sale, and you will lose.
Should I worry less because anyone buying in our area is likely to run into lead problems, so a positive test won’t be a big hit?
A colleague just went through this as a result of lead paint, which is exceptionally common where we live. Back in the day, one spouse wanted to test and they other didn't, and the one that wanted to went ahead and did it anyway. They had to disclose to potential buyers, and lost $30K off the sale price as a result.
posted by NotMyselfRightNow at 7:00 AM on October 17, 2016
Yes, it's a big deal. Doesn't matter if everyone else is in the same situation, it will become a negotiating point during your home sale, and you will lose.
Should I worry less because anyone buying in our area is likely to run into lead problems, so a positive test won’t be a big hit?
A colleague just went through this as a result of lead paint, which is exceptionally common where we live. Back in the day, one spouse wanted to test and they other didn't, and the one that wanted to went ahead and did it anyway. They had to disclose to potential buyers, and lost $30K off the sale price as a result.
posted by NotMyselfRightNow at 7:00 AM on October 17, 2016
What are you going to do differently if the test is positive or negative? Are you willing to spend tens of thousands on remediation? If the test is simply to convince your wife to use a different tap, there must be a better way to convince her, and you are not even sure if the test is positive it will convince her.
I would not take the test. I would sooner move now than take the test. I think the RE agent is correct. Just assume there is lead and both you and your wife act accordingly. If the water in the coffee really means that much to you, I would propose that you make your own coffee and soup.
posted by AugustWest at 7:01 AM on October 17, 2016
I would not take the test. I would sooner move now than take the test. I think the RE agent is correct. Just assume there is lead and both you and your wife act accordingly. If the water in the coffee really means that much to you, I would propose that you make your own coffee and soup.
posted by AugustWest at 7:01 AM on October 17, 2016
I see that there are home test kits for lead, so you can see if there's a problem without having an official report.
one example
posted by duoshao at 7:03 AM on October 17, 2016 [2 favorites]
one example
posted by duoshao at 7:03 AM on October 17, 2016 [2 favorites]
Clearly, your wife doesn't want to think about it so YOU have to do the leg work here. Undersink filters, water delivery, whatever. Look into it ASAP and do it.
posted by Neekee at 7:05 AM on October 17, 2016
posted by Neekee at 7:05 AM on October 17, 2016
Response by poster: I like the idea of just adding filters to the 2 taps we tend to use for drinking so we can stop thinking about this. We split the cooking 50/50 but she makes more things that require water (e.g., soups) so the burden really would fall on her. That's a great middle way.
Can someone recommend a filter that handles lead and supports a high flow rate? Our current system has a reservoir that fills slowly, so once you've run the water for a while it slows to a trickle for 20 minutes or so while the reservoir fills back up.
posted by Tehhund at 7:12 AM on October 17, 2016
Can someone recommend a filter that handles lead and supports a high flow rate? Our current system has a reservoir that fills slowly, so once you've run the water for a while it slows to a trickle for 20 minutes or so while the reservoir fills back up.
posted by Tehhund at 7:12 AM on October 17, 2016
I am sort of blown away by your wife and realtor's lackadaisical attitude about the health risks here. You are not blowing this out of proportion. I worked in a government building and recently when there was a potential lead problem, the government supplied cases of bottled water for all offices in the building until the problem was resolved. Lead is no joke. Don't trust me, trust the EPA:
----------
Is there a safe level of lead in drinking water?
The Safe Drinking Water Act requires EPA to determine the level of contaminants in drinking water at which no adverse health effects are likely to occur with an adequate margin of safety. These non-enforceable health goals, based solely on possible health risks, are called maximum contaminant level goals (MCLGs). EPA has set the maximum contaminant level goal for lead in drinking water at zero because lead is a toxic metal that can be harmful to human health even at low exposure levels. Lead is persistent, and it can bioaccumulate in the body over time.
Young children, infants, and fetuses are particularly vulnerable to lead because the physical and behavioral effects of lead occur at lower exposure levels in children than in adults. A dose of lead that would have little effect on an adult can have a significant effect on a child. In children, low levels of exposure have been linked to damage to the central and peripheral nervous system, learning disabilities, shorter stature, impaired hearing, and impaired formation and function of blood cells.
Children
Even low levels of lead in the blood of children can result in:
Behavior and learning problems
Lower IQ and hyperactivity
Slowed growth
Hearing problems
Anemia
In rare cases, ingestion of lead can cause seizures, coma and even death.
-----------
How much will it cost you to fix the problem? Do that, and your resale value will rise, not fall.
posted by sevensnowflakes at 7:13 AM on October 17, 2016 [20 favorites]
----------
Is there a safe level of lead in drinking water?
The Safe Drinking Water Act requires EPA to determine the level of contaminants in drinking water at which no adverse health effects are likely to occur with an adequate margin of safety. These non-enforceable health goals, based solely on possible health risks, are called maximum contaminant level goals (MCLGs). EPA has set the maximum contaminant level goal for lead in drinking water at zero because lead is a toxic metal that can be harmful to human health even at low exposure levels. Lead is persistent, and it can bioaccumulate in the body over time.
Young children, infants, and fetuses are particularly vulnerable to lead because the physical and behavioral effects of lead occur at lower exposure levels in children than in adults. A dose of lead that would have little effect on an adult can have a significant effect on a child. In children, low levels of exposure have been linked to damage to the central and peripheral nervous system, learning disabilities, shorter stature, impaired hearing, and impaired formation and function of blood cells.
Children
Even low levels of lead in the blood of children can result in:
Behavior and learning problems
Lower IQ and hyperactivity
Slowed growth
Hearing problems
Anemia
In rare cases, ingestion of lead can cause seizures, coma and even death.
-----------
How much will it cost you to fix the problem? Do that, and your resale value will rise, not fall.
posted by sevensnowflakes at 7:13 AM on October 17, 2016 [20 favorites]
My bad, that other kit looks like it requires mailing the sample to a lab.
This looks like an instant test you can do at home.
posted by duoshao at 7:16 AM on October 17, 2016
This looks like an instant test you can do at home.
posted by duoshao at 7:16 AM on October 17, 2016
At least worth considering is testing for lead and if you indeed have it, replumbing. It's not inexpensive, but your family will be safer and you can price accordingly when you eventually sell.
posted by cecic at 7:37 AM on October 17, 2016
posted by cecic at 7:37 AM on October 17, 2016
Not your direct question, but your real estate agent is correct about why avoiding an official test for lead is a 'good thing'. When we went through the process of purchasing a new home (with a 2-year-old and goals of having another in the next year), we were told that no seller's agent would seriously consider us if we pushed on getting clear information on lead. Even if you've got the situation under control (filters, pipes in good shape), any official confirmation that lead is present is going to turn a lot of people away, due to the "stigma" of lead.
Many of the home testing kits are either inaccurate* or require chain-of-custody stuff that would result in paperwork. You're better off treating the system like it contains lead and dealing with it from that perspective.
Honestly, though, we had lead abatement done on our condo and it ended up being a very attractive selling feature. It wasn't cheap, but our area was up-and-coming for people with young families and the 'certified lead abated' set our place apart from the 'may contain lead' houses in the area.
And I literally paid the price again (when we purchases a new house) for lead abatement for the peace of mind. I really had to push my wife to take it seriously and she still thanks me that I was so insistent addressing theissues. I don't know what your financial sitaution is, the pay-off (both in terms of children's mental health, your mental sanity, and future selling price) is worth the investment (imho).
*When we had lead testing done in our home (for paint), we were told most of the tests could only tell if your place definately had lead. It couldn't confirm your place was lead-free, even if you got negative test resullts - due to testing errors and limits on testing accuracy.
posted by TofuGolem at 7:50 AM on October 17, 2016 [4 favorites]
Many of the home testing kits are either inaccurate* or require chain-of-custody stuff that would result in paperwork. You're better off treating the system like it contains lead and dealing with it from that perspective.
Honestly, though, we had lead abatement done on our condo and it ended up being a very attractive selling feature. It wasn't cheap, but our area was up-and-coming for people with young families and the 'certified lead abated' set our place apart from the 'may contain lead' houses in the area.
And I literally paid the price again (when we purchases a new house) for lead abatement for the peace of mind. I really had to push my wife to take it seriously and she still thanks me that I was so insistent addressing theissues. I don't know what your financial sitaution is, the pay-off (both in terms of children's mental health, your mental sanity, and future selling price) is worth the investment (imho).
*When we had lead testing done in our home (for paint), we were told most of the tests could only tell if your place definately had lead. It couldn't confirm your place was lead-free, even if you got negative test resullts - due to testing errors and limits on testing accuracy.
posted by TofuGolem at 7:50 AM on October 17, 2016 [4 favorites]
Can someone recommend a filter that handles lead and supports a high flow rate?
When I lived in an old house that most likely had lead pipes, we used a PUR faucet filter that removed lead on the kitchen faucet. The flow slowed down when it was time to replace the filter cartridge, but other than that it was reasonably fast. You don't have to wait for a reservoir to fill up.
posted by belladonna at 8:20 AM on October 17, 2016 [1 favorite]
When I lived in an old house that most likely had lead pipes, we used a PUR faucet filter that removed lead on the kitchen faucet. The flow slowed down when it was time to replace the filter cartridge, but other than that it was reasonably fast. You don't have to wait for a reservoir to fill up.
posted by belladonna at 8:20 AM on October 17, 2016 [1 favorite]
What...I'm sort of scared to ask...is your infant child eating? Surely she or he should be the locus of any "But look, this is important" discussions?
(How much would the kid's doctor be willing to freak out in front of Mom...?)
posted by kmennie at 8:20 AM on October 17, 2016 [5 favorites]
(How much would the kid's doctor be willing to freak out in front of Mom...?)
posted by kmennie at 8:20 AM on October 17, 2016 [5 favorites]
There's no possible way the world will be improved by the decision not to test for lead. Ethically, the only difference between a clandestine test and refusing to take a test is that in the later case you'll have a harder time convincing your family to treat the danger with the respect it deserves. It's time to embrace the fact that real-estate disclosure laws create perverse incentives for home-owners and that you're already planning to rip off the next home buyer by failing to tell them about a serious health hazard that you believe is present.
Get a few home test kits from different manufacturers, or send in samples for lab analysis from a work address or a PO box. Self-aware lying is better than willful ignorance; at least your family will benefit from the information.
posted by eotvos at 8:26 AM on October 17, 2016 [6 favorites]
Get a few home test kits from different manufacturers, or send in samples for lab analysis from a work address or a PO box. Self-aware lying is better than willful ignorance; at least your family will benefit from the information.
posted by eotvos at 8:26 AM on October 17, 2016 [6 favorites]
If you want to know if there is lead in your water I am pretty sure that with a little imagination you can figure out how to do it without leaving a paper trail tied back to you, not disclosing is your own lookout but is ethically dubious. I would take the high road or at least find out what it would cost. Get 3 quotes for re plumbing your supply lines with pex, probably including the waterline from wherever the city's responsibility ends. If you did that you could dispense with filters, marital discord, and you would be able to ask a premium at selling time for a house unambiguously free of lead plumbing. (State of your towns water supply is another matter.)
posted by Pembquist at 8:36 AM on October 17, 2016
posted by Pembquist at 8:36 AM on October 17, 2016
I hope my face doesn't get stuck in the expression it assumed when I got to the part about the baby. If your wife just gave birth, is she doing alright? Because sure, this could destroy the home's value -- for a very good reason. That she's not seeing that at all, even with respect to your infant, is really scary.
posted by teremala at 9:08 AM on October 17, 2016 [11 favorites]
posted by teremala at 9:08 AM on October 17, 2016 [11 favorites]
Also, you already know damned well there are lead pipes. As a prospective buyer, I would be 0% impressed with, "But maybe it isn't actually in the water! Yet. Mostly?" Much better to have a real understanding of the problem and how to make it safe. This isn't knowing that people can be superstitious about folks having died in a house so you decide not to mention grandpa's home hospice care.
posted by teremala at 9:25 AM on October 17, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by teremala at 9:25 AM on October 17, 2016 [3 favorites]
This is all anecdotal and likely in a different jurisidiction, so YMMV.
We have lead paint in our 1898 house and likely lead service lines. We did test for lead dust because I was more worried about my child's health than resale value. Also, where we live, all houses are now presumed to have lead paint before a certain year, and all houses in my neighborhood definitely do if they haven't been renovated. So it didn't seem like a big risk.
With the water, I didn't test for lead for similar concerns about resale value. However, it's now clear that all houses in my neighborhood have the same lead issues if they haven't been renovated. So again, I don't see it really changing the market. Since we didn't test, we did use bottled water for formula and drinking water for the baby's first year. After that I got fairly lax, then this year got a little stricter about it with the news from Flint and lead in the local schools.
I also have it on good authority from someone who does public health work on lead in water that flushing the pipes with cold water for 5 minutes every is pretty well certain to get most of the lead out. In fact this may be a better approach than lead testing, because lead leaching can change over the course of the year depending on what kind of chemicals they use for water treatment, which can change.
At the end of the day, I always figured my kid's health was more important than resale value. I also felt pretty confident that our house is always going to be comparable to unrenovated houses in the neighborhood in terms of lead, so I don't think that a test should really alter resale in any way. It helps that I live in a very high demand area, though!
posted by yarly at 10:02 AM on October 17, 2016
We have lead paint in our 1898 house and likely lead service lines. We did test for lead dust because I was more worried about my child's health than resale value. Also, where we live, all houses are now presumed to have lead paint before a certain year, and all houses in my neighborhood definitely do if they haven't been renovated. So it didn't seem like a big risk.
With the water, I didn't test for lead for similar concerns about resale value. However, it's now clear that all houses in my neighborhood have the same lead issues if they haven't been renovated. So again, I don't see it really changing the market. Since we didn't test, we did use bottled water for formula and drinking water for the baby's first year. After that I got fairly lax, then this year got a little stricter about it with the news from Flint and lead in the local schools.
I also have it on good authority from someone who does public health work on lead in water that flushing the pipes with cold water for 5 minutes every is pretty well certain to get most of the lead out. In fact this may be a better approach than lead testing, because lead leaching can change over the course of the year depending on what kind of chemicals they use for water treatment, which can change.
At the end of the day, I always figured my kid's health was more important than resale value. I also felt pretty confident that our house is always going to be comparable to unrenovated houses in the neighborhood in terms of lead, so I don't think that a test should really alter resale in any way. It helps that I live in a very high demand area, though!
posted by yarly at 10:02 AM on October 17, 2016
I'm...really shocked that your wife thinks your child ingesting lead is no big deal. I wouldn't bother paying money for an expensive test, I would just install water filters straight away. I wouldn't even run it past your wife. If she asks, just explain that it was the cheaper option, you now have peace of mind and the topic can be dropped completely.
posted by Jubey at 10:03 AM on October 17, 2016 [6 favorites]
posted by Jubey at 10:03 AM on October 17, 2016 [6 favorites]
I hope my face doesn't get stuck in the expression it assumed when I got to the part about the baby. If your wife just gave birth, is she doing alright? Because sure, this could destroy the home's value -- for a very good reason. That she's not seeing that at all, even with respect to your infant, is really scary.
posted by teremala at 9:08 AM on October 17 [2 favorites +] [!]
The baby isn't even drinking water yet. It's breastfed. Flushing the kitchen tap for 2 minutes every morning (and evenings if you aren't at home during the day) is plenty to get the lead out.
posted by yarly at 10:13 AM on October 17, 2016
posted by teremala at 9:08 AM on October 17 [2 favorites +] [!]
The baby isn't even drinking water yet. It's breastfed. Flushing the kitchen tap for 2 minutes every morning (and evenings if you aren't at home during the day) is plenty to get the lead out.
posted by yarly at 10:13 AM on October 17, 2016
My family did a combination of a filter that reduces chemicals likely to leach lead out of the pipes (which also helps extend the life of the water heater, apparently,) and an under-sink filter by PUR. The main trouble with the sink filter is that it only has like a gallon reservoir, so you have to be a little careful about filling soup pots at a time not immediately adjacent to whatever else you're using the water for.
In the super-old house I'm living in now, though, the only solution was changing all the... "up" pipes, I guess you'd say. The water still travels back into the sewer system via the original pipes, but the route from the city into the house plus all the pipes going into the sinks and bathtub were replaced with PVC. It amuses the guys who take care of our plumbing issues, though my understanding is that because they did this the "now we have to get rid of all the roots blocking the pipes in the yard" problem is half the size it used to be. There's also a filter before the water heater, because the city has old pipes and it was easier to just do it than worry. Also improves the taste of the water substantially.
I am also totally appalled by the idea of having a baby in the house but not filtering. The effects of lead poisoning are horrific and completely preventable.
posted by SMPA at 10:18 AM on October 17, 2016
In the super-old house I'm living in now, though, the only solution was changing all the... "up" pipes, I guess you'd say. The water still travels back into the sewer system via the original pipes, but the route from the city into the house plus all the pipes going into the sinks and bathtub were replaced with PVC. It amuses the guys who take care of our plumbing issues, though my understanding is that because they did this the "now we have to get rid of all the roots blocking the pipes in the yard" problem is half the size it used to be. There's also a filter before the water heater, because the city has old pipes and it was easier to just do it than worry. Also improves the taste of the water substantially.
I am also totally appalled by the idea of having a baby in the house but not filtering. The effects of lead poisoning are horrific and completely preventable.
posted by SMPA at 10:18 AM on October 17, 2016
Get your child blood tested for lead.
This is a normal thing to do if you live in an older residence, we definitely did this. We wanted to be double sure everything was OK.
In our situation, we use filtered water for cooking and drinking. We keep six 5 gallon water bottles, at least 3 are always full. (We live in earthquake country, so getting the bottles filled and keeping them on hand serves a dual purpose.)
I have overseen re-piping projects and it might actually be worth it in terms of resale value + there might be insurance or government incentives (maybe check around?) so having the "up's" done in your house could very well be worth the expense. Get a few estimates. There are companies that only do re-pipes, and they can be very competent and work swiftly and cleanly. It can bet a much much easier process than you imagine.
Check around for mini docs on youtube for information about lead for your wife to watch? This is super critical and I can tell you it's not that big a hassle to switch habits concerning water from the tap. Once you start thinking of it as not potable, you naturally stop drinking it or using it for cooking. If your wife is stubborn, than the hassle of additional water filtration systems or the expense of re-piping is totally worth protecting your child's welfare.
Good luck.
posted by jbenben at 10:37 AM on October 17, 2016 [1 favorite]
This is a normal thing to do if you live in an older residence, we definitely did this. We wanted to be double sure everything was OK.
In our situation, we use filtered water for cooking and drinking. We keep six 5 gallon water bottles, at least 3 are always full. (We live in earthquake country, so getting the bottles filled and keeping them on hand serves a dual purpose.)
I have overseen re-piping projects and it might actually be worth it in terms of resale value + there might be insurance or government incentives (maybe check around?) so having the "up's" done in your house could very well be worth the expense. Get a few estimates. There are companies that only do re-pipes, and they can be very competent and work swiftly and cleanly. It can bet a much much easier process than you imagine.
Check around for mini docs on youtube for information about lead for your wife to watch? This is super critical and I can tell you it's not that big a hassle to switch habits concerning water from the tap. Once you start thinking of it as not potable, you naturally stop drinking it or using it for cooking. If your wife is stubborn, than the hassle of additional water filtration systems or the expense of re-piping is totally worth protecting your child's welfare.
Good luck.
posted by jbenben at 10:37 AM on October 17, 2016 [1 favorite]
Tehhund: "Is my realtor right about a positive test being a big deal?"
Yes. Unless there is reason to know testing would reveal low lead levels testing is only going to hurt you financially. Unless a positive result can garner a benefit (IE: it'll convince your wife not to use unfiltered water for food preparation or it'll motivate you to abate the lead exposure) testing isn't a good idea. Your realtor is right in that you should just assume exposure and act accordingly.
raccoon409: "Given how you can't remove heavy metals from the body, "
This isn't true, at least for lead. Lead levels in the body decline naturally once exposure is reduced. And high levels can be treated with chelation.
Tehhund: "Is there a middle way/compromise I haven't thought of?"
Installing lead filtration at point of use (IE: kitchen and bathroom sinks) would mostly eliminate your exposure from the lead pipes. Encapsulating the paint by repainting would greatly reduce the exposure to lead dust from paint (just don't sand without proper precautions). And keep an eye on children to prevent them from gnawing on painted surfaces.
posted by Mitheral at 11:20 AM on October 17, 2016
Yes. Unless there is reason to know testing would reveal low lead levels testing is only going to hurt you financially. Unless a positive result can garner a benefit (IE: it'll convince your wife not to use unfiltered water for food preparation or it'll motivate you to abate the lead exposure) testing isn't a good idea. Your realtor is right in that you should just assume exposure and act accordingly.
raccoon409: "Given how you can't remove heavy metals from the body, "
This isn't true, at least for lead. Lead levels in the body decline naturally once exposure is reduced. And high levels can be treated with chelation.
Tehhund: "Is there a middle way/compromise I haven't thought of?"
Installing lead filtration at point of use (IE: kitchen and bathroom sinks) would mostly eliminate your exposure from the lead pipes. Encapsulating the paint by repainting would greatly reduce the exposure to lead dust from paint (just don't sand without proper precautions). And keep an eye on children to prevent them from gnawing on painted surfaces.
posted by Mitheral at 11:20 AM on October 17, 2016
I can't believe the attitude of just assuming everything will be ok if the problem is ignored. Is this a normal situation in the US? Lead piping is dangerous, and unbelievably so for children. Any house I've ever owned in the UK or NZ with a suspicion of lead piping we've just re-plumbed. This was a thing in the 70s and 80s but there really shouldn't be a question about it nowadays. Do the re-plumb, make a big noise about it when selling and you'll ensure that your house sits above the neighbouring ones at resale.
posted by tillsbury at 12:24 PM on October 17, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by tillsbury at 12:24 PM on October 17, 2016 [1 favorite]
The reverse osmosis water filter under our kitchen sink has a really big tank -- maybe 5 gallons? The flow is a little slower than the tap, but not so much as to be frustrating, and it's never once run down during use. My husband even uses the filtered water to wash produce. So upgrading your filter setup may be enough to alleviate your wife's frustrations.
Bonus: our water tastes -great- now!
posted by wyzewoman at 4:10 PM on October 17, 2016
Bonus: our water tastes -great- now!
posted by wyzewoman at 4:10 PM on October 17, 2016
Admittedly, I missed that the baby is breastfed. However, I talked to a lead risk assessor from our city's public health department not three months ago, and he said that enough lead could potentially transfer through milk that I should avoid being involved in a lead paint remediation project even assuming that I'd take all normal precautions in terms of suit and mask. And that was regarding a toddler whose relative milk intake is steadily decreasing. Since it wasn't relevant, we didn't discuss drinking water, but I would be very surprised if the recommendations for infants' milk weren't to avoid all possible exposure as well.
posted by teremala at 6:40 PM on October 17, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by teremala at 6:40 PM on October 17, 2016 [1 favorite]
Make it easier for her to use the filtered water. Think of the cost as a way to avoid losing money on reselling your house. Asking her to assume some inconvenience to use the filtered water now clearly isn't working, so you need to try something else.
Also, old house that may have lead pipes doesn't automatically mean lead in the water. We live in a house built in 1927, without a water filtration system. We had our water tested for lead, and the test was negative. Our kids were also blood tested for lead, and their levels are normal.
posted by Anne Neville at 7:21 PM on October 17, 2016
Also, old house that may have lead pipes doesn't automatically mean lead in the water. We live in a house built in 1927, without a water filtration system. We had our water tested for lead, and the test was negative. Our kids were also blood tested for lead, and their levels are normal.
posted by Anne Neville at 7:21 PM on October 17, 2016
Umm, you bought a 90 year old house and didn't have the pipes and water tested yourself?
Any educated buyer will do so and there's no point not getting it tested for your own health and your kid's, because you are not going to keep it a secret from the next purchaser and it would be unethical to do so if you suspect it.
Lead can seriously damage your child's future. Not knowing for sure seems like a bad idea.
posted by spitbull at 7:28 PM on October 17, 2016
Any educated buyer will do so and there's no point not getting it tested for your own health and your kid's, because you are not going to keep it a secret from the next purchaser and it would be unethical to do so if you suspect it.
Lead can seriously damage your child's future. Not knowing for sure seems like a bad idea.
posted by spitbull at 7:28 PM on October 17, 2016
Get pipes replaced and your child tested for lead. This isn't the sort of thing you fuck around with when it comes to kids.
posted by Toddles at 9:02 PM on October 17, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by Toddles at 9:02 PM on October 17, 2016 [1 favorite]
So a new family wants to buy the house with infant twins. They ask you point blank "does this house have lead pipes?". Do you commit fraud and say no, plead the 5th, or fess up?
Just do the right thing, get a cost estimate for PVC lines to all bathroom sinks and the kitchen. It won't cost as much as you think and you don't have to keep wasting money on filters. It'll cost you a lot less than dealing with developmental issues later on from lead in your child.
posted by benzenedream at 10:44 PM on October 17, 2016
Just do the right thing, get a cost estimate for PVC lines to all bathroom sinks and the kitchen. It won't cost as much as you think and you don't have to keep wasting money on filters. It'll cost you a lot less than dealing with developmental issues later on from lead in your child.
posted by benzenedream at 10:44 PM on October 17, 2016
Response by poster: Update: my wife was making soup again this morning and used the regular tap again, and I broke down and *delicately* let her know how distressing this is to me, and how worried I am about the possible lead situation. Turns out she doesn't believe we have lead leading to the kitchen (which is something we can't possibly know) so she's inclined to act as if there isn't lead. She has been unimpressed with the “don't test, just assume” policy, and it's been tough to take this seriously when I was unwilling to get the test done. But she did say she is trying to take it seriously and trying to use the filtered water, she just doesn't always remember because she doesn't feel the threat as viscerally as me.
Here's the good news: we decided that if it's that big of a deal to me (it is) we'll get an estimate for removing every lead pipe from the house. That way we can test before and after and be certain there's no lead in our water after, and when we go to sell we can guarantee to the sellers there's no lead in the water (or at least no lead pipes in the house). We probably won't make back the cost of replacing the pipes but that's fine, we're purchasing safe water not trying to fix our resale value.
posted by Tehhund at 5:19 AM on October 18, 2016 [7 favorites]
Here's the good news: we decided that if it's that big of a deal to me (it is) we'll get an estimate for removing every lead pipe from the house. That way we can test before and after and be certain there's no lead in our water after, and when we go to sell we can guarantee to the sellers there's no lead in the water (or at least no lead pipes in the house). We probably won't make back the cost of replacing the pipes but that's fine, we're purchasing safe water not trying to fix our resale value.
posted by Tehhund at 5:19 AM on October 18, 2016 [7 favorites]
Tehhund if you end up having to open up a bunch of walls to replumb consider doing at least a partial electrical upgrade if your house hasn't been upgraded in the last 30 years or so. At least things like GFCIs on their own circuits near basins.
posted by Mitheral at 1:07 PM on October 18, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by Mitheral at 1:07 PM on October 18, 2016 [3 favorites]
Have your child tested for lead in the meantime. It's a long time between now and any re-piping.
Infants are small and this is not a wait-and-see type of thing. The test is easy. Please have it done.
posted by jbenben at 3:13 PM on October 18, 2016
Infants are small and this is not a wait-and-see type of thing. The test is easy. Please have it done.
posted by jbenben at 3:13 PM on October 18, 2016
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Alternately you could replace pipes between the whole house filter the previous owners installed and the kitchen sink with copper or PVC so you can know for certain.
posted by duoshao at 6:54 AM on October 17, 2016 [5 favorites]