Elephant Hide Gift
December 28, 2015 4:02 PM Subscribe
Kid Gyre came back from the ex's parents with an expensive, elephant hide wallet as a Christmas gift. My initial thought were a mix of squick, and oh my goodness-is-this-a-crime?!? Googling showed me that elephant hide is a thing, and there are tons of websites claiming "ethically sourced blah, blah ...."
Kid Gyre is not of the age where he has need or interest in a wallet. I am horrified by it. I also recognize that I am being hypocritical, in that if it had been leather or lambskin - I would have carried on with the usual thank-you card routine. My reasoning here is that using all of an animal is okay, if we're going to eat it, we may as well use as much of it as we can. But elephants.... are creatures with death rituals and big giant brains.... it feels super wrong to me to have them made into accessories. Mefites - can you help me resolve my feelings about this gift? I would like to send it far, far, away and pretend like elephant hide items are not a thing. However, if in your wisdom, Mefites, you can point out that I am being ridiculous, feel free to do so. (Kid Gyre initially thought grandpa was joking when he told him the material - 'cause grandpa-jokes) I don't just want to take the manufacturer's word that it's "ethical" but could not dig up a lot of sources from folks who did not have a vested interest in telling me things were alright.
Kid Gyre is not of the age where he has need or interest in a wallet. I am horrified by it. I also recognize that I am being hypocritical, in that if it had been leather or lambskin - I would have carried on with the usual thank-you card routine. My reasoning here is that using all of an animal is okay, if we're going to eat it, we may as well use as much of it as we can. But elephants.... are creatures with death rituals and big giant brains.... it feels super wrong to me to have them made into accessories. Mefites - can you help me resolve my feelings about this gift? I would like to send it far, far, away and pretend like elephant hide items are not a thing. However, if in your wisdom, Mefites, you can point out that I am being ridiculous, feel free to do so. (Kid Gyre initially thought grandpa was joking when he told him the material - 'cause grandpa-jokes) I don't just want to take the manufacturer's word that it's "ethical" but could not dig up a lot of sources from folks who did not have a vested interest in telling me things were alright.
Best answer: Since there's no reliable documentation that says "NO, YOU CAN'T HAVE IT...BAD!" because of the source... I would take this as an opportunity for discussion, encourage young Gyre to explore the issue on his own, and make his own decision, now and later....
posted by HuronBob at 4:24 PM on December 28, 2015 [6 favorites]
posted by HuronBob at 4:24 PM on December 28, 2015 [6 favorites]
Yeah, teachable moment. I'm aghast. It's just terrible. Perhaps offer make a donation to a wild animal fund. Gross.
posted by Ruthless Bunny at 4:30 PM on December 28, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by Ruthless Bunny at 4:30 PM on December 28, 2015 [1 favorite]
This is your ex-father-in-law? Unless you have an unusually close relationship with your ex-in-laws wherein you could say "hey, no possibly poached stuff" and they'd honor it, I'd go with the usual thank-you card routine and be done with it.
Unless you're vegan and have never owned a diamond and sew your own clothes from cotton you harvest yourself and etc., you use products and services that depend on the sometimes-illegal and certainly-unethical suffering of others. Don't make your kid have to deal with your squick if it puts him between adult family members.
posted by headnsouth at 4:34 PM on December 28, 2015 [14 favorites]
Unless you're vegan and have never owned a diamond and sew your own clothes from cotton you harvest yourself and etc., you use products and services that depend on the sometimes-illegal and certainly-unethical suffering of others. Don't make your kid have to deal with your squick if it puts him between adult family members.
posted by headnsouth at 4:34 PM on December 28, 2015 [14 favorites]
My husband brought one back from Thailand almost two decades ago. It very well could have come from a deceased domestic elephant, if that is your concern. I don't think elephant hide is like ivory in that I would be very shocked to learn they were killed just for their hides.
So, it COULD be just like leather, but there may be no way of knowing.
posted by St. Alia of the Bunnies at 4:46 PM on December 28, 2015 [1 favorite]
So, it COULD be just like leather, but there may be no way of knowing.
posted by St. Alia of the Bunnies at 4:46 PM on December 28, 2015 [1 favorite]
Best answer: Under seven, I'd quietly chuck it. Older than seven I would have a discussion appropriate to your particular kid.
With my kid, who is seven, this discussion would end up with: so it's okay to kill animals as long as they're stupid? At which point I'd say I had to run out for milk and drive to Maine.
In any case try to think of it In terms of the needs and developmental priorities of the kid as opposed to personal moral revulsion and maybe boundary stepping on the part of your ex's family. If you haven't separated those into mental buckets maybe consider doing so before acting.
posted by A Terrible Llama at 4:57 PM on December 28, 2015 [17 favorites]
With my kid, who is seven, this discussion would end up with: so it's okay to kill animals as long as they're stupid? At which point I'd say I had to run out for milk and drive to Maine.
In any case try to think of it In terms of the needs and developmental priorities of the kid as opposed to personal moral revulsion and maybe boundary stepping on the part of your ex's family. If you haven't separated those into mental buckets maybe consider doing so before acting.
posted by A Terrible Llama at 4:57 PM on December 28, 2015 [17 favorites]
I think is supposedly ethical because the hides, if appropriately sourced, are purported to come from animals who were legally killed
So it's ethical because the government doesn't prohibit it?? I don't see how that makes sense.
Of course elephant hide is unethical. That's why no one in this thread is setting forth any serious argument to the contrary.
But of all the animal-cruelty issues to take a stand on, why choose something where the damage has already been done and you have little opportunity to have any effect? Who are you even trying to influence — your ex-in-laws? your son? If he's too young to have a wallet, do you really think he'll be persuaded by forbidding elephant hides while accepting other kinds of leather? (By the way, how old is he?)
If you want to take ethical actions toward reducing cruelty to animals, you can be more effective by refraining from buying things you might otherwise want to buy. (Yes, those animals have already been killed, but businesses will stop producing something if not enough customers are buying it.) It might seem like objecting to the wallet would be brave and moral. I say it would be easier — no one really wants it anyway — but less effective.
posted by John Cohen at 7:11 PM on December 28, 2015
So it's ethical because the government doesn't prohibit it?? I don't see how that makes sense.
Of course elephant hide is unethical. That's why no one in this thread is setting forth any serious argument to the contrary.
But of all the animal-cruelty issues to take a stand on, why choose something where the damage has already been done and you have little opportunity to have any effect? Who are you even trying to influence — your ex-in-laws? your son? If he's too young to have a wallet, do you really think he'll be persuaded by forbidding elephant hides while accepting other kinds of leather? (By the way, how old is he?)
If you want to take ethical actions toward reducing cruelty to animals, you can be more effective by refraining from buying things you might otherwise want to buy. (Yes, those animals have already been killed, but businesses will stop producing something if not enough customers are buying it.) It might seem like objecting to the wallet would be brave and moral. I say it would be easier — no one really wants it anyway — but less effective.
posted by John Cohen at 7:11 PM on December 28, 2015
There's no way it's ethical, because (as with ivory) if there is a legal market for any elephant product, it will always be impossible to prevent illegally taken animals from entering that market. There are fewer than half a million elephants left on the planet. The only ethical choice to protect endangered elephants is to avoid the purchase of any elephant product, regardless of source, because as long as there is a presumably "ethical" source there will also be poaching and illegal trade of that product flying under the "ethical" flag.
Teachable moment, for sure.
posted by Miko at 8:08 PM on December 28, 2015 [11 favorites]
Teachable moment, for sure.
posted by Miko at 8:08 PM on December 28, 2015 [11 favorites]
So it's ethical because the government doesn't prohibit it?? I don't see how that makes sense.
Elephants are in an overpopulation condition in several parts of Sub-Saharan Africa. The problem is that elephants being big and hungry cause a lot of environmental damage. For instance, they destroy and eat trees. A lot of areas which used to be forested are now grasslands because elephants destroyed all the trees.
They also represent a really big problem for subsistence farmers in Africa, entering fields and eating the crops.
Overall, their numbers have been growing quite a lot for the last few decades.
Some of the governments there have taken to culling the herds, not because the governments are corrupt and stupid (though they might well be) but because the ecosystem can't support as many elephants as there are. The animals that are killed in this way (legally!) have their ivory taken and it is sold (legally) in international trade, but it's also completely plausible that other animal parts (for instance the leather) are being taken too.
In other words, it's entirely likely that there isn't anything shady or despicable about this particular wallet.
We humans can argue about whether it's really our place to decide that there are too many elephants, but it's not just local humans whose existence is threatened by the elephants; it's all the other animals there too who are affected. (Except that we aren't supposed to have arguments like that in AskMe.) But it's a fact that elephant overpopulation is causing a great deal of harm which can only really be ameliorated by reducing the number of elephants.
Nature's way of doing that is famine, but such a famine would kill a lot more than just excess elephants.
Also, as pointed out above, this leather might have come from an Asian elephant, which might well have been domesticated, with the leather taken after the animal died a natural death.
You can't, and shouldn't, assume this came from a poached animal. That isn't likely, because harvesting leather from a poached animal is time consuming for the poachers and it just isn't worth very much. They take the tusks and leave everything else behind.
posted by Chocolate Pickle at 10:22 PM on December 28, 2015 [4 favorites]
Elephants are in an overpopulation condition in several parts of Sub-Saharan Africa. The problem is that elephants being big and hungry cause a lot of environmental damage. For instance, they destroy and eat trees. A lot of areas which used to be forested are now grasslands because elephants destroyed all the trees.
They also represent a really big problem for subsistence farmers in Africa, entering fields and eating the crops.
Overall, their numbers have been growing quite a lot for the last few decades.
Some of the governments there have taken to culling the herds, not because the governments are corrupt and stupid (though they might well be) but because the ecosystem can't support as many elephants as there are. The animals that are killed in this way (legally!) have their ivory taken and it is sold (legally) in international trade, but it's also completely plausible that other animal parts (for instance the leather) are being taken too.
In other words, it's entirely likely that there isn't anything shady or despicable about this particular wallet.
We humans can argue about whether it's really our place to decide that there are too many elephants, but it's not just local humans whose existence is threatened by the elephants; it's all the other animals there too who are affected. (Except that we aren't supposed to have arguments like that in AskMe.) But it's a fact that elephant overpopulation is causing a great deal of harm which can only really be ameliorated by reducing the number of elephants.
Nature's way of doing that is famine, but such a famine would kill a lot more than just excess elephants.
Also, as pointed out above, this leather might have come from an Asian elephant, which might well have been domesticated, with the leather taken after the animal died a natural death.
You can't, and shouldn't, assume this came from a poached animal. That isn't likely, because harvesting leather from a poached animal is time consuming for the poachers and it just isn't worth very much. They take the tusks and leave everything else behind.
posted by Chocolate Pickle at 10:22 PM on December 28, 2015 [4 favorites]
I'm friends with a number of leatherworkers. Yes, elephant hide is a thing. Yes, it is absolutely possible that it was not procured through (or as a by-product of) poaching; there does exist a standard for responsible sourcing.
However, you are not required to construct a thoroughly-examined, totally objective, hierarchical ethical justification of all the animals and all the uses of all of their parts in order to justify your personal feelings about not wanting to use something made of elephant leather. You can just be uncomfortable with having something made of elephant hide because elephants.
In fact, I don't know any leather workers who would argue with the right to feel a particular way about certain types of hides based on nothing but a gut feeling. (As long as you don't try to argue that your personal feelings trump their their own professional practices, of course.)
Regardless of the elephants...it is not appropriate to give age-inappropriate, very expensive gifts made of rare materials to children. And it's dumb to give such a thing to a kiddo who isn't into it.
posted by desuetude at 11:23 PM on December 28, 2015 [6 favorites]
However, you are not required to construct a thoroughly-examined, totally objective, hierarchical ethical justification of all the animals and all the uses of all of their parts in order to justify your personal feelings about not wanting to use something made of elephant leather. You can just be uncomfortable with having something made of elephant hide because elephants.
In fact, I don't know any leather workers who would argue with the right to feel a particular way about certain types of hides based on nothing but a gut feeling. (As long as you don't try to argue that your personal feelings trump their their own professional practices, of course.)
Regardless of the elephants...it is not appropriate to give age-inappropriate, very expensive gifts made of rare materials to children. And it's dumb to give such a thing to a kiddo who isn't into it.
posted by desuetude at 11:23 PM on December 28, 2015 [6 favorites]
It seems like a really inappropriate gift for a young kid. Don't feel badly if you don't thank them for this. Personally I just wouldn't say anything at all about it at all to the givers. If they bring it up I'd just say calmly, "Oh yes, thanks for the gift." You are being polite and not making it into "a thing, " but at the same time they will get the message, it was not a gift that was super enthusiastically recieved. I'm sure they will draw the appropriate conclusions as to why.
And for what it's worth, I wear leather and bunny fur but was also a vegetarian for 20 years. Personally, I wouldn't want anything to do with an elephant skin product either. It's OK to do what feels right to you.
posted by WalkerWestridge at 1:55 PM on December 29, 2015 [1 favorite]
And for what it's worth, I wear leather and bunny fur but was also a vegetarian for 20 years. Personally, I wouldn't want anything to do with an elephant skin product either. It's OK to do what feels right to you.
posted by WalkerWestridge at 1:55 PM on December 29, 2015 [1 favorite]
This thread is closed to new comments.
But I'd have a lot of concerns too. First, I don't think it is inappropriate to object to carrying an object made from the hide of a very smart animal. I'd have the same issues about dog, cat, pig, dolphin, or whale "hide" too. Secondly, I really wonder how accurate the sourcing is. For example, a lot of food companies were apparently surprised to learn they were marketing, and a lot of customers were surprised to learn they were eating, shrimp peeled by slaves. Third, elephants are very endangered, due to habitat loss and poaching by ivory hunters. I'd hate to feed the current demand for their parts any further.
So, I'm with you on this. But I'm a pescetarian who mostly eats no meat at all, and doesn't wear fur and looks hard at the sourcing of my leather boots, so . . .
posted by bearwife at 4:12 PM on December 28, 2015 [1 favorite]