Which Tao teh Ching?

November 17, 2015 11:22 AM

I have recently become very interested in Taoism. Overwhelmed by the choices to read about it in English. Any must read recommendation on it in English will be really deeply appreciated.
posted by gadget_gal to Education (19 answers total)

Ursula K. Le Guin's translation has come highly recommended.
posted by memento maury at 11:47 AM on November 17, 2015 [7 favorites]

I've read a number over the years, and the one that I've kept is by the poet and translator Sam Hamill. I also recommend Bill Porter's - he has a broad, deep knowledge of ancient Chinese religion and culture, and is a very skilled translator (his Road to Heaven: Encounters with Chinese Hermits is also worth checking out for a look at one aspect of contemporary Taoism).
posted by ryanshepard at 11:55 AM on November 17, 2015 [3 favorites]

Many people find the Tao of Pooh and the Te of Piglet good introductions.
posted by Jane the Brown at 12:21 PM on November 17, 2015 [6 favorites]

I found some good answers about this in the Taoism forum of Reddit.
posted by bluecore at 12:23 PM on November 17, 2015 [1 favorite]

I always liked the Gia-Fu Feng & Jane English translation (and had it recommended by a teacher eons ago).
posted by aught at 12:28 PM on November 17, 2015 [2 favorites]

Seconding the Gia-Fu Feng/Jane English translation. I also really like their translation of Chuang Tsu.
posted by gnutron at 12:56 PM on November 17, 2015 [3 favorites]

Seconding Ursula Le Guinn. I have read it a couple times and it was okay, but Le Guinn's version has a mind-blowing idea on every page.
posted by chrchr at 1:34 PM on November 17, 2015

In addition to the Tao Te Ching, I highly recommend reading some of Zhuangzi's work! I'm sure there are better translations, but Wandering on the Way, translated by Victor Mair, seems to be widely available and easy to find used.
posted by dialetheia at 1:41 PM on November 17, 2015

I think it's important to point out that there can be no one best translation of the Tao Te Ching/Daodejing/Dao De Jing; in fact, in a sense there can't even be a good translation. It's not like War and Peace, where the original meaning is clear and it's just a matter of conveying it in English; the Dao De Jing is incredibly obscure in Chinese and I personally wouldn't believe anybody who claimed to be able to tell you exactly what it says. If what you want is just to read something labeled "Tao Te Ching" and have thoughts and feelings about it (and there's nothing wrong with that!), get one that appeals to you and enjoy it, but if you really want to get a sense of what's going on in the original, I think you will have to read a number of English versions and do your best to triangulate, and probably read some scholarly stuff about it as well. To get you started, here are 175+ translations of Chapter 1, which will give you an idea of the range of variation, and here is an excellent introduction from Indiana University ("Lao is not a Chinese surname and Laozi was clearly never meant to be understood as an identifiable author's name. The Dao de jing is an anonymous text."). I would avoid anything that seems too "poetic" or pop-philosophical, and much as I love Ursula Le Guin, I don't see how she could produce anything other than a good writer's personal take on some echoes she got from the work of people who actually know Ancient Chinese. The scholar Russell Kirkland puts it more harshly in this Language Log post dissecting an alleged quote (aka "someone's Romanticized Americanized colonialization of lines from DDJ") from the Daodejing:

Hey, I don't care if Ursula LeGuin wants to pass along to her readers her ideals for how they should live their lives and be happier. It's (still, for a little while, at least) a free country. But for her to publish "a translation" of a work that is written in a language that she cannot read — in order to propagate her ideals and values, while giving the impression that those ideals and values are in fact those of "Lao Tzu" is, necessarily, a fraud — like the new "Second Book of Tao" by Stephen Mitchell — another dilettante who cannot read a word of Chinese, and in 1989 told the New York Times that he was qualified to "translate" the DDJ because he had taken Zen lessons!

I'm sure there are better translations, but Wandering on the Way, translated by Victor Mair, seems to be widely available and easy to find used.

Why are you sure there are better translations? Victor Mair is a genuine Chinese scholar, and I'd trust his version sight unseen over the shelves full of Romanticized Americanized "translations" out there.
posted by languagehat at 1:59 PM on November 17, 2015 [16 favorites]

As languagehat says, you really need to read multiple translations to get a sense of what it's really about. I would also put out there that the Stephen Mitchell version, the Leguin version (much as I love her), and the Tao of Pooh are really not good places to start if you are trying to really understand the philosophy.

I own five different translations in book form, and have perused many more digitally. If I had to recommend just one, it would be the John C.H. Wu version, but with the caveat that it is a starting point, not a definitive translation.
posted by 256 at 2:06 PM on November 17, 2015 [4 favorites]

To provide an ignorant and idiotic counterpoint to languagehat's learned and correct response, I would like to enthusiastically suggest the version available at

www.beatrice.com/TAO.txt

made by some guy named Ron. I deeply appreciate it for its poetically beautiful translation of passages like this from section 20:

Don't spend too much time
thinking about stupid shit.
Why should you care
if people agree or disagree with you?
Why should you care
if others find you attractive or not?
Why should you care
about things that worry others?
Call bullshit on all that.

I mean the whole thing is just a bunch of crazy nonsense, but "don't spend too much time thinking about stupid shit" is memorable and practical. I find it is also an appealing way to introduce the general gist of the philosophy that most people can get behind.
posted by mbrock at 2:08 PM on November 17, 2015 [2 favorites]

I would also put out there that the Stephen Mitchell version, the Leguin version (much as I love her), and the Tao of Pooh are really not good places to start if you are trying to really understand the philosophy.

Er, I came in here to recommend the Mitchell translation. I took a bunch of translations off the shelf of my local bookstore and compared their language/clarity. I dug Mitchell's most. YMMV.
posted by xenization at 2:19 PM on November 17, 2015

Er, I came in here to recommend the Mitchell translation. I took a bunch of translations off the shelf of my local bookstore and compared their language/clarity. I dug Mitchell's most. YMMV.

It's very readable, and there's nothing wrong with enjoying it. But it's not a very good window into the Tao Teh Ching itself.
posted by 256 at 2:21 PM on November 17, 2015 [1 favorite]

Why are you sure there are better translations?

Good point, I'm not actually sure of that at all - I just know it's the only translation I've read and was (poorly) trying to convey that I wasn't sure what else was out there. Glad to hear it's likely a decent translation, though!
posted by dialetheia at 2:54 PM on November 17, 2015

Upon rereading your question and giving a little further thought: while the John Wu translation is my go to version now, I think the book that was the most helpful to understanding the Dao De Jing originally was the Mentor Book "The Way of Life" by R.B. Blakney.

It's not the most poetic translation, but it includes a lengthy introduction giving historical context as well as in-depth analysis of some of the harder to translate characters and concepts. Also, each chapter is accompanied by a non-poetic plain English paraphrase that can be very useful. It's long out of print, but it is probably the best overall introduction I have ever encountered.
posted by 256 at 4:26 PM on November 17, 2015 [2 favorites]

I'm a big fan of LeGuin, and I got a copy of her version, and I was disappointed. It seemed kinda flat and pedestrian to me.

I grew up with a hippy version that my brother had which was clunky and a bit goofy. I really liked a cheap little dime store pocket version that my niece had. I actually haven't found the perfect version myself yet. Maybe I should look harder.

Asking about the best English translation of the Tao is kinda like asking what kind of food tastes the best. You'll have to look at some sample pages of different versions and see what responds to you.
posted by ovvl at 9:07 PM on November 17, 2015

I've lived by the Mitchell version for years, and wouldn't trade it for the world. His end-notes are concise and thoughtful. I can't speak at all to whether to it's one of the most faithful to the source material, but it's the one I've found the most helpful.
posted by jbickers at 3:22 AM on November 18, 2015

Response by poster: Thank you all! I love you all for making this discussion happen. It makes it exciting for me to embark on learning about taoism. As I meander through the book I will read with the awareness that the translation is a take of what the translator perceived/experienced as taoism. As a non native english speaker, I can also relate to the fidelity being lost between languages.

I wish we could just recreate that moment he uttered it and I could go live into it without relying over any kind of language. Maybe that kind of technology would be available someday.
posted by gadget_gal at 12:57 PM on November 18, 2015

You may want to read Victor Mair's "Introduction and Notes for a Complete Translation of the Chuang Tzu" (pdf); here's a quote that nicely sums up an important distinction: "The Tao Te Ching was addressed to the sage-king; it is basically a handbook for rulers. The Chuang Tzu, in contrast, is the earliest surviving Chinese text to present a philosophy for the individual."
posted by languagehat at 8:17 AM on November 23, 2015 [1 favorite]