Is My Sister Ever Coming Back from Stepford?
October 22, 2015 7:47 AM Subscribe
Since having a child, my sister seems to have become one-dimensional and our relationship is starting to feel like hard work. Should I just expect this to be reality until my niece leaves for college? How do we maintain connection if so?
My sister and I are only 10 months apart, and despite the fact that we live on different continents, historically we have had periods of closeness as well as periods of benevolent dropping out of contact for stretches of a few months.
So my extremely beloved sister had my extremely beloved niece in early 2011. Niece was conceived via ART. My sister was 40 at the time and this will be her only child. I was a big cheerleader for this, as while my partner and I have no offspring, I'm intimately familiar with ART. She had a stressful pregnancy which I offered a lot of support through, and I flew over to doula for her when my niece was born.
At which point, my sister disappeared from any discernible identity other than "niece's mother." I made enormous allowances for this all through infancy and toddler-hood, but at this point, the child is five and a half and I would like to talk about something else.
* She has posted literally nothing not about my niece on Facebook since she was born. Nothing. Not a single thing. I swear to God she used to have other interests! But she doesn't seem to read any more, or have hobbies, or be interested in LGBT issues, or tv or films or...
* Phone calls must be scheduled, still. I think this is now just part of her personality since having a baby put her into organisational over-drive. This drives me insane. I have not been able to pick up the phone and just call my sister in almost 6 years.
* I don't know how they are for her, but these big "let's catch up!" phone calls are awkward for me. We don't have kids so my life has much less forward motion than hers; the answer to "what's new?" is "not much." Very little changes here, so we just end up talking about... niece.
* Emails are signed "Love, Sistername and NieceName" Again, this child is 5; she is not sending communications about holiday scheduling and this honestly makes me gag.
My sister has shared custody with niece's father, which has evolved to what is probably a 60/40 split at this point. What she's doing with her 40% besides going to yoga, I have no idea. She has a full-time job as a teacher but she never seems interested in talking about that, either.
In contrast, my cousin had a baby the same year and same week, and it could not be more different. She is also a teacher; we talk about her classes, and her son, and family, and politics, and stupid internet memes and just... the normal, well-rounded stuff of friendship. She goes out. She has hobbies. She has a full, complete and interactive identity beyond motherhood. I love her son, I'm enjoy babysitting for him, and I am happy to talk about his school and his stuff but it's not the ONLY thing we talk about by any stretch.
TLDR; Is my sister ever coming back, and if not, how do I maintain a connection when I am genuinely not engaged with the only thing she's willing to offer?
My sister and I are only 10 months apart, and despite the fact that we live on different continents, historically we have had periods of closeness as well as periods of benevolent dropping out of contact for stretches of a few months.
So my extremely beloved sister had my extremely beloved niece in early 2011. Niece was conceived via ART. My sister was 40 at the time and this will be her only child. I was a big cheerleader for this, as while my partner and I have no offspring, I'm intimately familiar with ART. She had a stressful pregnancy which I offered a lot of support through, and I flew over to doula for her when my niece was born.
At which point, my sister disappeared from any discernible identity other than "niece's mother." I made enormous allowances for this all through infancy and toddler-hood, but at this point, the child is five and a half and I would like to talk about something else.
* She has posted literally nothing not about my niece on Facebook since she was born. Nothing. Not a single thing. I swear to God she used to have other interests! But she doesn't seem to read any more, or have hobbies, or be interested in LGBT issues, or tv or films or...
* Phone calls must be scheduled, still. I think this is now just part of her personality since having a baby put her into organisational over-drive. This drives me insane. I have not been able to pick up the phone and just call my sister in almost 6 years.
* I don't know how they are for her, but these big "let's catch up!" phone calls are awkward for me. We don't have kids so my life has much less forward motion than hers; the answer to "what's new?" is "not much." Very little changes here, so we just end up talking about... niece.
* Emails are signed "Love, Sistername and NieceName" Again, this child is 5; she is not sending communications about holiday scheduling and this honestly makes me gag.
My sister has shared custody with niece's father, which has evolved to what is probably a 60/40 split at this point. What she's doing with her 40% besides going to yoga, I have no idea. She has a full-time job as a teacher but she never seems interested in talking about that, either.
In contrast, my cousin had a baby the same year and same week, and it could not be more different. She is also a teacher; we talk about her classes, and her son, and family, and politics, and stupid internet memes and just... the normal, well-rounded stuff of friendship. She goes out. She has hobbies. She has a full, complete and interactive identity beyond motherhood. I love her son, I'm enjoy babysitting for him, and I am happy to talk about his school and his stuff but it's not the ONLY thing we talk about by any stretch.
TLDR; Is my sister ever coming back, and if not, how do I maintain a connection when I am genuinely not engaged with the only thing she's willing to offer?
Is my sister ever coming back, and if not, how do I maintain a connection when I am genuinely not engaged with the only thing she's willing to offer?
Motherhood is a huge life change. It definitely was for me. It meant a gigantic identity shift for me that I still struggle with regularly (although my child is a couple years younger than your niece).
Your sister will never be the same person she was pre-baby. And she shouldn't be.
This is what she is currently willing to offer.
"this honestly makes me gag"
"the child is five and a half and I would like to talk about something else"
"What she's doing with her 40% besides going to yoga, I have no idea."
These sound really dismissive to me and maybe these thoughts are really slipping into your phone conversations. What are you expecting from her? Especially when you say this:
"I don't know how they are for her, but these big "let's catch up!" phone calls are awkward for me. We don't have kids so my life has much less forward motion than hers; the answer to "what's new?" is "not much." Very little changes here, so we just end up talking about... niece. "
It doesn't sound like you are offering up any other topics.
So how do you maintain a connection when you aren't engaged with the thing she is willing to offer but you have nothing else to offer?!?
People change. Interests change. Relationships change. Offer up your own suggestions to discuss. Maybe email or text her interesting stuff that gives you more of the day-to-day touch points that you sound like you are missing. (It is ABSOLUTELY easier for me to fit in emails and texts than phone calls because emails and texts can be handled sporadically between attention-needing children.)
posted by jillithd at 8:17 AM on October 22, 2015 [33 favorites]
Motherhood is a huge life change. It definitely was for me. It meant a gigantic identity shift for me that I still struggle with regularly (although my child is a couple years younger than your niece).
Your sister will never be the same person she was pre-baby. And she shouldn't be.
This is what she is currently willing to offer.
"this honestly makes me gag"
"the child is five and a half and I would like to talk about something else"
"What she's doing with her 40% besides going to yoga, I have no idea."
These sound really dismissive to me and maybe these thoughts are really slipping into your phone conversations. What are you expecting from her? Especially when you say this:
"I don't know how they are for her, but these big "let's catch up!" phone calls are awkward for me. We don't have kids so my life has much less forward motion than hers; the answer to "what's new?" is "not much." Very little changes here, so we just end up talking about... niece. "
It doesn't sound like you are offering up any other topics.
So how do you maintain a connection when you aren't engaged with the thing she is willing to offer but you have nothing else to offer?!?
People change. Interests change. Relationships change. Offer up your own suggestions to discuss. Maybe email or text her interesting stuff that gives you more of the day-to-day touch points that you sound like you are missing. (It is ABSOLUTELY easier for me to fit in emails and texts than phone calls because emails and texts can be handled sporadically between attention-needing children.)
posted by jillithd at 8:17 AM on October 22, 2015 [33 favorites]
A child born in early 2011 is four and a half, not five and a half, right? You'd think you know this perfectly, given all you hear about this child :D Either way, you're talking about a child that needs a great deal of attention and help on the life basics. Throw in a custody split (maybe a breakup?) and a full time job, your poor sister is probably exhausted. Cut her some slack. There's no telling if she's ever coming back, but it's still early. Play the long game.
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 8:17 AM on October 22, 2015 [16 favorites]
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 8:17 AM on October 22, 2015 [16 favorites]
One thing I notice:
We don't have kids so my life has much less forward motion than hers; the answer to "what's new?" is "not much." Very little changes here, so we just end up talking about... niece.
It sounds like you're relying on her to bring conversation topics to the table. Maybe she could could write a similar question: "I love my sister and I want to connect with her. But whenever we talk on the phone, I ask about her life, and she has nothing to say! We always end up just talking about my daughter, which I can tell bores her after a while. How can I get my sister to share with me more?"
It sounds like you prefer spontaneous interaction rather than planned/scheduled communications. But it may be a good idea to just embrace the scheduled element of it. Prepare, ahead of time, a series of topics you want to discuss. When she asks, "What's new?" you can raise one of them. It could be an anecdote from your life: "Ha, you know, yesterday at Starbucks..." If you keep in mind ahead of time to locate and remember such anecdotes, they'll fit in easier. Or maybe there's some other topic you want to discuss: "What's new? The GOP debate, that's what's new--Let me tell you...." Note that "What's new?" can be interpreted as a general, "What's on your mind?" question as opposed to a specific, "Give me updates about your personal life and career" request.
It probably will feel awkward at first, but maybe the awkwardness will start to slide away. It may become easier, with time, for you to notice things that are worth raising with your sister--it may become natural to go, "Oh, hey! I should bring this up, next time we talk!" And then it may not be awkward anymore.
The big idea, here, is to make sure that you are as much a part of the phone calls as she is. And if you try it, and nothing changes? If you bring in more topics and conversation starters, but she just always brings it back to her child? ("Oh, no, I didn't see the GOP debate, I don't have any time for anything other than my child...") Well, then it might be time to say something direct to her so she knows she's leaving you feeling frustrated and alone.
posted by meese at 8:19 AM on October 22, 2015 [28 favorites]
We don't have kids so my life has much less forward motion than hers; the answer to "what's new?" is "not much." Very little changes here, so we just end up talking about... niece.
It sounds like you're relying on her to bring conversation topics to the table. Maybe she could could write a similar question: "I love my sister and I want to connect with her. But whenever we talk on the phone, I ask about her life, and she has nothing to say! We always end up just talking about my daughter, which I can tell bores her after a while. How can I get my sister to share with me more?"
It sounds like you prefer spontaneous interaction rather than planned/scheduled communications. But it may be a good idea to just embrace the scheduled element of it. Prepare, ahead of time, a series of topics you want to discuss. When she asks, "What's new?" you can raise one of them. It could be an anecdote from your life: "Ha, you know, yesterday at Starbucks..." If you keep in mind ahead of time to locate and remember such anecdotes, they'll fit in easier. Or maybe there's some other topic you want to discuss: "What's new? The GOP debate, that's what's new--Let me tell you...." Note that "What's new?" can be interpreted as a general, "What's on your mind?" question as opposed to a specific, "Give me updates about your personal life and career" request.
It probably will feel awkward at first, but maybe the awkwardness will start to slide away. It may become easier, with time, for you to notice things that are worth raising with your sister--it may become natural to go, "Oh, hey! I should bring this up, next time we talk!" And then it may not be awkward anymore.
The big idea, here, is to make sure that you are as much a part of the phone calls as she is. And if you try it, and nothing changes? If you bring in more topics and conversation starters, but she just always brings it back to her child? ("Oh, no, I didn't see the GOP debate, I don't have any time for anything other than my child...") Well, then it might be time to say something direct to her so she knows she's leaving you feeling frustrated and alone.
posted by meese at 8:19 AM on October 22, 2015 [28 favorites]
I think this happens when the mom perceives the kid to be the best and happiest thing she has going on in her life. She sounds lonely.
Early parenthood sucks up so much mental and physical energy that one must make conscious, deliberate, well-funded effort to maintain other kinds of activities. I think it's easy to default to a situation where one doesn't have other kinds of mental inputs, just because arrangements haven't been made to get them.
Maybe a visit? During a 40 time? So you can make some arrangements to see a movie or go to a comedy show or do something she might not have set up on her own?
posted by fingersandtoes at 8:19 AM on October 22, 2015 [7 favorites]
Early parenthood sucks up so much mental and physical energy that one must make conscious, deliberate, well-funded effort to maintain other kinds of activities. I think it's easy to default to a situation where one doesn't have other kinds of mental inputs, just because arrangements haven't been made to get them.
Maybe a visit? During a 40 time? So you can make some arrangements to see a movie or go to a comedy show or do something she might not have set up on her own?
posted by fingersandtoes at 8:19 AM on October 22, 2015 [7 favorites]
Response by poster: Just to clarify: there was no breakup. There was no custody split. There was a legal co-parenting agreement with a known family-friend donor, who is my niece's father.
Also: sorry for the year typo. She is actually five and a half!
posted by DarlingBri at 8:29 AM on October 22, 2015 [5 favorites]
Also: sorry for the year typo. She is actually five and a half!
posted by DarlingBri at 8:29 AM on October 22, 2015 [5 favorites]
If she's a solo parent (with a full-time job!) sixty percent of the time, even just doing some yoga on her downtime would be pretty admirable. Most people don't cultivate super fascinating hobbies whether they are single parents or not, it seems kind of unfair to judge your sister for that.
Do you ever ask your sister about politics, or tell her about a cool movie on Netflix she should check out? Maybe emails and gchat are a better way to shoot the breeze with her, I find "check in" phone calls pretty laborious no matter who the other person is.
posted by cakelite at 8:30 AM on October 22, 2015 [20 favorites]
Do you ever ask your sister about politics, or tell her about a cool movie on Netflix she should check out? Maybe emails and gchat are a better way to shoot the breeze with her, I find "check in" phone calls pretty laborious no matter who the other person is.
posted by cakelite at 8:30 AM on October 22, 2015 [20 favorites]
I for one believe you HAVE tried to talk about other topics. It's just the way it is sometimes - some women seem eager to disappear into their children, the way some writers and artists seek to disappear into their work. She's still your sister, but she's become too much Niece's Mom to be your buddy again. I think you just have to accept it as gracefully as you can. Sorry.
posted by tomboko at 8:30 AM on October 22, 2015 [21 favorites]
posted by tomboko at 8:30 AM on October 22, 2015 [21 favorites]
DB, frequent giver of wisdom yourself, this is a tough one. Perhaps part of this is because she had a child as an older woman with medical assistance? Sounds like she was on the verge of never having a biological child of her own, which is a huge, huge, deal to many women.
I feel you on this. I am very close with my brother (15 months older, lives in another province) and I'd be bummed if we stopped talking about music, politics, and everything else to talk about my (adorable! brilliant! hilarious!) nibling constantly, even though I love the little guy with all my heart.
Can you talk to your sis about this? And more importantly, do you need to? Does she seem happy? If yes, there's probably not much you can - or should - do about it. If that's the case, I think this is one of those situations where you either have to accept it or you don't. I'm childfree, so it's really hard for me to understand the people I know whose entire identities are wrapped up in their wee ones, but I have also accepted that I probably feel that way because I have not had that experience myself and can't relate.
posted by futureisunwritten at 8:34 AM on October 22, 2015 [10 favorites]
I feel you on this. I am very close with my brother (15 months older, lives in another province) and I'd be bummed if we stopped talking about music, politics, and everything else to talk about my (adorable! brilliant! hilarious!) nibling constantly, even though I love the little guy with all my heart.
Can you talk to your sis about this? And more importantly, do you need to? Does she seem happy? If yes, there's probably not much you can - or should - do about it. If that's the case, I think this is one of those situations where you either have to accept it or you don't. I'm childfree, so it's really hard for me to understand the people I know whose entire identities are wrapped up in their wee ones, but I have also accepted that I probably feel that way because I have not had that experience myself and can't relate.
posted by futureisunwritten at 8:34 AM on October 22, 2015 [10 favorites]
I think this is pretty much the reaction of any childless adult talking to a new mother. What you're witnessing and experiencing isn't unique. Not too long ago, I finally caught up with a friend who has a two year old and lives on the other side of the continent. We talk about once a year and make plans in advance to set up a good chunk of time for our annual gabfest.
Literally the entire conversation was her talking to her kid ("No, Child, you're so smart but making a fort on top of me right now while I'm having a conversation with HeyAllie isn't such a great idea. You remember HeyAllie, Child, don't you? We visited her last year! Do you remember playing in the lake and going to the beach and having your first ever smores? Do you remember what those are? It's graham crackers and melty marshmallows and -----")
HELLO. HELLO? I literally could have jogged around the block, taken a shower, and come back to the phone and the entire conversation would still have revolved around her child. Sure, I was pissed. But I realized that this conversation didn't involve any other topic because she's a single mom, going through a very stressful time, her time with her kid was precious because she works so much, and well, I am just a peripheral part of her life at the moment. So I let it go.
Next time, maybe interrupt and just say, "That Child is SO adorbs. Now let's take 5 minutes and talk about you, and then I can take 5 minutes to fill you in on what's going on with me. Fair enough?"
posted by HeyAllie at 8:36 AM on October 22, 2015 [12 favorites]
Literally the entire conversation was her talking to her kid ("No, Child, you're so smart but making a fort on top of me right now while I'm having a conversation with HeyAllie isn't such a great idea. You remember HeyAllie, Child, don't you? We visited her last year! Do you remember playing in the lake and going to the beach and having your first ever smores? Do you remember what those are? It's graham crackers and melty marshmallows and -----")
HELLO. HELLO? I literally could have jogged around the block, taken a shower, and come back to the phone and the entire conversation would still have revolved around her child. Sure, I was pissed. But I realized that this conversation didn't involve any other topic because she's a single mom, going through a very stressful time, her time with her kid was precious because she works so much, and well, I am just a peripheral part of her life at the moment. So I let it go.
Next time, maybe interrupt and just say, "That Child is SO adorbs. Now let's take 5 minutes and talk about you, and then I can take 5 minutes to fill you in on what's going on with me. Fair enough?"
posted by HeyAllie at 8:36 AM on October 22, 2015 [12 favorites]
One thing I noticed, but may be reading to much into it: you contrast your sister's phone conversations (all about the kid) with your cousin (wide range of topics). But you also note that your response to "what's new" is "not much." Does your cousin have more of a proactive conversation style than either you or your sister (post-kid)? If your sister is a bit introverted, lack of alone time/energy may mean she's not as good as driving/keeping up the conversation as she used to be, so falling back on updates about kiddo is an easy topic for her brain to generate words without thinking too hard. So, your sister may still be there, she's just tired/drained.
I'm not great a phone conversations myself (the lack if visual feedback leaves me feeling cut-off). With friends that are like me, we'll carry out conversations over text (or Pinterest), would that be an option? That way you can get some spontaneous communication, but without her feeling pressured to respond immediately.
posted by ghost phoneme at 8:38 AM on October 22, 2015 [5 favorites]
I'm not great a phone conversations myself (the lack if visual feedback leaves me feeling cut-off). With friends that are like me, we'll carry out conversations over text (or Pinterest), would that be an option? That way you can get some spontaneous communication, but without her feeling pressured to respond immediately.
posted by ghost phoneme at 8:38 AM on October 22, 2015 [5 favorites]
Maybe you could set up an artificial topic, like you and she could arrange to watch a movie/tv show once a week and then talk about that?
posted by LobsterMitten at 8:38 AM on October 22, 2015 [12 favorites]
posted by LobsterMitten at 8:38 AM on October 22, 2015 [12 favorites]
Best answer: In contrast, my cousin had a baby the same year and same week, and it could not be more different.
Yeah, excellent point OP: #notallmoms have jumped down into this particular overparenting-esque identity claim rabbit hole that your sister seems to have done. Recognize though that hers is the dominant North American (total guess on my part that's where she lives...) cultural mothering identity model right now, and is probably being reinforced in thousands of little ways in her community. Best to assume her status quo feels comfortable for her for now and is probably a soothing way for her to be after her ART challenges and the trauma of infertility, even if it is not sustainable long term because kids grow up and move on.
However, you are Not Wrong to find this very troubling. If your sister is too focused on her own child, she is likely ignoring her own needs. Hell, I'm a mom of 2 myself and I positively loathe this kind of dynamic, too, even though I get where it's coming from vis-a-vis the cultural pressures and larger social structures that make it hard for working parents and single mothers to get support. It makes me worried for folks whenever one person is their entire world for years on end, but I digress.
I wonder if the fact that you were so wonderfully supportive of her early on -- and by the way, flying internationally to a doula for her was an amazingly!!! kind gesture -- has kind of painted you into a corner, where she doesn't know what you really think about the general conversational pattern you two have fallen into for the last 5+ years. So, you're going to have to use your words here, I'm afraid.
"Sister, you know I've got nothing but love for you both. When we talk about Niece all the time, I feel X. When we don't talk very often, I feel Y. I love you and want to be supportive. How do we fix this?"
posted by hush at 9:05 AM on October 22, 2015 [18 favorites]
Yeah, excellent point OP: #notallmoms have jumped down into this particular overparenting-esque identity claim rabbit hole that your sister seems to have done. Recognize though that hers is the dominant North American (total guess on my part that's where she lives...) cultural mothering identity model right now, and is probably being reinforced in thousands of little ways in her community. Best to assume her status quo feels comfortable for her for now and is probably a soothing way for her to be after her ART challenges and the trauma of infertility, even if it is not sustainable long term because kids grow up and move on.
However, you are Not Wrong to find this very troubling. If your sister is too focused on her own child, she is likely ignoring her own needs. Hell, I'm a mom of 2 myself and I positively loathe this kind of dynamic, too, even though I get where it's coming from vis-a-vis the cultural pressures and larger social structures that make it hard for working parents and single mothers to get support. It makes me worried for folks whenever one person is their entire world for years on end, but I digress.
I wonder if the fact that you were so wonderfully supportive of her early on -- and by the way, flying internationally to a doula for her was an amazingly!!! kind gesture -- has kind of painted you into a corner, where she doesn't know what you really think about the general conversational pattern you two have fallen into for the last 5+ years. So, you're going to have to use your words here, I'm afraid.
"Sister, you know I've got nothing but love for you both. When we talk about Niece all the time, I feel X. When we don't talk very often, I feel Y. I love you and want to be supportive. How do we fix this?"
posted by hush at 9:05 AM on October 22, 2015 [18 favorites]
She sounds busy. She's a single mom and has a full-time mentally demanding job outside the home as well. I think it's perfectly reasonable that she doesn't have many hobbies right now, and that scheduling phone calls works better than expecting her to be available any old time.
She might not be posting to Facebook because she doesn't have time to post to Facebook, and is tossing up photos of her daughter because that's the easiest way to get them to the extended families.
Can you visit her? That might be a better way to keep in touch and stay involved with your niece, and to get a feel for your sister's life outside of motherhood. Some people -- like me -- are just bad at phone calls, especially if they have a hundred things on their to do list.
posted by The corpse in the library at 9:18 AM on October 22, 2015 [8 favorites]
She might not be posting to Facebook because she doesn't have time to post to Facebook, and is tossing up photos of her daughter because that's the easiest way to get them to the extended families.
Can you visit her? That might be a better way to keep in touch and stay involved with your niece, and to get a feel for your sister's life outside of motherhood. Some people -- like me -- are just bad at phone calls, especially if they have a hundred things on their to do list.
posted by The corpse in the library at 9:18 AM on October 22, 2015 [8 favorites]
Could you text your sister? Texting is the only way I really get to have conversations with my sister that isn't about my niece. When we're on the phone it's all about the kid all the time.
But I am able to text her questions like: What do you think about ______? Or should I buy this outfit? Or omg I need to complain about my day. Chatty sisterly things. And we have our real conversations that way.
posted by ilovewinter at 9:31 AM on October 22, 2015 [4 favorites]
But I am able to text her questions like: What do you think about ______? Or should I buy this outfit? Or omg I need to complain about my day. Chatty sisterly things. And we have our real conversations that way.
posted by ilovewinter at 9:31 AM on October 22, 2015 [4 favorites]
Mom of an older toddler and I work full time. I do tons of stuff that's not work or parenting but I'm usually so exhausted by those two major subjects in my life that I'm out of practice at normal conversation and I often just can't muster the mental power to remember non child and non work things unless the other person is helping carry the bulk of the conversational weight and bringing up other topics.
posted by HMSSM at 9:39 AM on October 22, 2015 [15 favorites]
posted by HMSSM at 9:39 AM on October 22, 2015 [15 favorites]
So, she's really into her kid. Better that than the other extreme, right?
I will say that since I had a kid, my capacity for meandering conversation has plummeted. Talking for the sake of talking is just not that easy or pleasurable any more. (I can debate local politics with other people who care about it and have a vested interest, but I won't yammer on to someone who's not involved.) Given that you were involved in the post-partum period and are a loving aunt, she might believe that she is giving you what you want conversationally anyway.
The way out of this conversational rut is to do something different. Watching movies "together" online or gaming is a good way to do this.
posted by stowaway at 9:44 AM on October 22, 2015 [2 favorites]
I will say that since I had a kid, my capacity for meandering conversation has plummeted. Talking for the sake of talking is just not that easy or pleasurable any more. (I can debate local politics with other people who care about it and have a vested interest, but I won't yammer on to someone who's not involved.) Given that you were involved in the post-partum period and are a loving aunt, she might believe that she is giving you what you want conversationally anyway.
The way out of this conversational rut is to do something different. Watching movies "together" online or gaming is a good way to do this.
posted by stowaway at 9:44 AM on October 22, 2015 [2 favorites]
And yes, texting!! Just text her random stuff you think might amuse or interest her, or give her funny commentary on your day, etc. My best friend took on a very demanding job at the same time I had kids, and that's how we keep the connection.
posted by stowaway at 9:46 AM on October 22, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by stowaway at 9:46 AM on October 22, 2015 [2 favorites]
If she has a 5.5 year old, I guarantee you that she gets plenty of meandering conversation already. Since my children learned to talk I have literally zero interest in talking to anyone on the phone, ever, because someone is talking in my ear for most of the day.
On the other hand, if I finally had a chance to talk to a person about something other than children or children's interests, and I asked them what was up and they consistently said, "Not much," I'd stop taking their calls.
She is a single working parent to a child who is still on the edges of the high-needs time of life. Comparing her to other parents -- who may have partners, who may not work full time, who may have more family help around -- is unfair. Putting this down to some kind of wacky brain meltdown on her part because she's an older mother who really really wanted a kid is insulting and dismissive of the sheer amount of time involved in single parenting.
It sounds like, on top of everything else she's got going on, she is responsible for maintaining this relationship in a way that makes you feel good, when you aren't even holding up your end of a phone conversation.
posted by xeney at 9:53 AM on October 22, 2015 [29 favorites]
On the other hand, if I finally had a chance to talk to a person about something other than children or children's interests, and I asked them what was up and they consistently said, "Not much," I'd stop taking their calls.
She is a single working parent to a child who is still on the edges of the high-needs time of life. Comparing her to other parents -- who may have partners, who may not work full time, who may have more family help around -- is unfair. Putting this down to some kind of wacky brain meltdown on her part because she's an older mother who really really wanted a kid is insulting and dismissive of the sheer amount of time involved in single parenting.
It sounds like, on top of everything else she's got going on, she is responsible for maintaining this relationship in a way that makes you feel good, when you aren't even holding up your end of a phone conversation.
posted by xeney at 9:53 AM on October 22, 2015 [29 favorites]
Best answer: Her full-time job is teaching? And she is solo-parenting a 5.5 year old? Dear lord, the woman never ever gets a minute's silence. Remember that during her "40%" she is still spending 8 hrs a day in a roomful of demanding youngsters. I know folks doing that gig in their mid-20s who are basically irretrievably wiped out by Wednesday afternoon, and your sis is in her mid-40s. Man, her life sounds hard as hell. I'd say you gotta cut her a tonnnnn of slack here.
It is very hard when long-term dynamics change, and you're definitely not wrong or weird to be mourning in this situation, but I think you would benefit extraordinarily from shifting your view of this as "a thing my sister is doing to me" to viewing it as "the current phase of this relationship, which is not, to be honest, my favorite."
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 9:59 AM on October 22, 2015 [36 favorites]
It is very hard when long-term dynamics change, and you're definitely not wrong or weird to be mourning in this situation, but I think you would benefit extraordinarily from shifting your view of this as "a thing my sister is doing to me" to viewing it as "the current phase of this relationship, which is not, to be honest, my favorite."
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 9:59 AM on October 22, 2015 [36 favorites]
What really stuck out to me was how you said your life is stable and boring and you don't have anything to talk about. That resonated with me because, despite being the mom of a 3-year-old and working full time, I have the same problem. Being day-to-day busy from 6:30 AM until 8:00 PM (at which point I fall onto the couch and watch Netflix until 10:00--and not even good artistic Netflix, documentaries about frivolous things that won't make me think or upset me), and also in a stable, happy marriage with a generally happy and healthy child, I have no drama to give to the world. I have nothing exciting to talk about. Politics just makes me angry, I don't have the attention span to read books anymore (this is a thing that happens when you spend most of your downtime caring for creatures that also have zero attention span), my weekends are all taken up with home improvements (if someone wanted to have a deep conversation about the evils of textured paint, I'd be up for that at least) and child-minding. I'm definitely not a super Mom-Identified-Mom (quite the opposite) but talking about my kid is social lubricant that hides the fact that I just do not have the mental energy to brain, most of the time.
So, if you don't have much interesting to talk about from your own life, what leads you to believe she would? Outside of the one thing she spends the vast majority of her non-work time doing: taking care of her child.
posted by soren_lorensen at 10:02 AM on October 22, 2015 [19 favorites]
So, if you don't have much interesting to talk about from your own life, what leads you to believe she would? Outside of the one thing she spends the vast majority of her non-work time doing: taking care of her child.
posted by soren_lorensen at 10:02 AM on October 22, 2015 [19 favorites]
Work on yourself. In conversation, be be able to tell interesting tales of new feats and adventures. Then figure out how to involve her in your antics without necessarily taking the kid along.
posted by pracowity at 10:04 AM on October 22, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by pracowity at 10:04 AM on October 22, 2015 [1 favorite]
Is it possible to suggest a book you guys would both read and talk about, or a tv show/movie you could do the same with? You could even frame this as "my life is pretty stable right now and I feel like I never have anything new to talk about with you!" Pick something light/easy so it doesn't feel like a homework assignment.
posted by rainbowbrite at 10:06 AM on October 22, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by rainbowbrite at 10:06 AM on October 22, 2015 [1 favorite]
Best answer: Nobody in my immediate family has had a baby yet. So when I call to talk to my brothers, or my parents, or whatever, in those, as you term them, "periodic catch-up calls", we just talk about stuff. It doesn't have to be what we've been doing in our lives -- as you say, when you're an adult without children, it's pretty stable -- although sometimes there are big life changes and we talk about that. But, for example, I just had one of those calls with my youngest brother last weekend, and we talked about stuff going on with other family members, holiday plans, coffee, craft beer, what the new hip gay bar in his city is like, the state of the Republican presidential clown car, the Clinton vs. Sanders campaigns, how good it is to have a really sharp chef's knife, my boyfriend, his boyfriend, etc.
Sometimes I like to ask my parents and siblings topical questions that I've been curious about. For example my father is a pediatrician, and on a recent visit we got into a pretty interesting conversation about how he deals with anti-vaxxers in his practice.
She might need help getting here. What if you offered up some miscellany a la the above, and see if she bites? Ask her a question about something non-kid that you know is in her life. Teaching, yoga, politics, Back To The Future, whatever.
I'll also say this. I have two besties from high school who recently had babies with a few weeks of each other. They have very different baby-dealing personalities. One seems to be basing her entire life around the kid, and the other might post kid-related stuff sometimes but also seems to have other interests still. I don't know why this is, and, hey, I think both approaches are fine. But it does seem to me that different people have different ways of relating to parenthood. And, yes, this might be Who Your Sister Is now. But, shit, my baby brother (abovementioned) joined the Marines on a fluke, for what I thought were really bad reasons, and the Marines were his life for 6 years, and it was basically all he could talk about, but we found a way to still talk. And, yeah, 6 years later he can talk about craft beer and stuff again and it's fine. I'm not sure it would be as fine if I'd dropped him after 4 years of nonstop military acronyms.
posted by Sara C. at 10:20 AM on October 22, 2015 [2 favorites]
Sometimes I like to ask my parents and siblings topical questions that I've been curious about. For example my father is a pediatrician, and on a recent visit we got into a pretty interesting conversation about how he deals with anti-vaxxers in his practice.
She might need help getting here. What if you offered up some miscellany a la the above, and see if she bites? Ask her a question about something non-kid that you know is in her life. Teaching, yoga, politics, Back To The Future, whatever.
I'll also say this. I have two besties from high school who recently had babies with a few weeks of each other. They have very different baby-dealing personalities. One seems to be basing her entire life around the kid, and the other might post kid-related stuff sometimes but also seems to have other interests still. I don't know why this is, and, hey, I think both approaches are fine. But it does seem to me that different people have different ways of relating to parenthood. And, yes, this might be Who Your Sister Is now. But, shit, my baby brother (abovementioned) joined the Marines on a fluke, for what I thought were really bad reasons, and the Marines were his life for 6 years, and it was basically all he could talk about, but we found a way to still talk. And, yeah, 6 years later he can talk about craft beer and stuff again and it's fine. I'm not sure it would be as fine if I'd dropped him after 4 years of nonstop military acronyms.
posted by Sara C. at 10:20 AM on October 22, 2015 [2 favorites]
I wonder if a big problem here is the distance. I have some trouble keeping touch with people long distance, and one thing I've noticed is that it becomes a lot harder when those people go through a big life change, because the fabric of what you're used to talking about is altered so drastically. Like, when you're used to getting together with a friend and chatting about boys, it's not that hard to shift to chatting about boys over text, but once they get married and that's not a topic of conversation anymore, it's hard to come up with a substitute topic, even though there's still lots going on: the problem is that you're not in the habit of talking about it, and it's hard to form new habits from afar.
When was the last time you visited her for a long stretch, or vice versa? I bet if you were with her for a significant chunk of time, it would help a lot. Even if she's still child-focused, it would make her world more tangible to you. Notice that you bbabysit for your cousin's kid - you see that kid every day, which makes him more interesting to talk about. By now, if you haven't spent much time with your niece, hearing news about her is basically like hearing gossip about a stranger. No wonder you're bored!
Go visit.
posted by pretentious illiterate at 10:33 AM on October 22, 2015 [4 favorites]
When was the last time you visited her for a long stretch, or vice versa? I bet if you were with her for a significant chunk of time, it would help a lot. Even if she's still child-focused, it would make her world more tangible to you. Notice that you bbabysit for your cousin's kid - you see that kid every day, which makes him more interesting to talk about. By now, if you haven't spent much time with your niece, hearing news about her is basically like hearing gossip about a stranger. No wonder you're bored!
Go visit.
posted by pretentious illiterate at 10:33 AM on October 22, 2015 [4 favorites]
I think others have made really good points about how utterly drained of interesting conversation parenting and a high emotional labor job (teaching, oh man) can make one. I am so boring right now. My life is work and kids, and mostly it bores me to talk about either b/c that's what I do all day, everyday.
But something a little different that occurred to me as well, though it might take me a minute to get to the relevant bit. One of the things about parenting that I vastly underestimated as a pre-parent (even though I had LOTS of exposure to children) was the weight of all of the parenting decisions. Whether it's truth or a social construct, there's constantly this pressure to make the best possible parenting choice, so you don't MESS UP YOUR CHILD's LIFE. This is an enormous pressure which plays out in hundreds of small decisions every single day.
One of the things that helps (at least for me) is having other trustworthy adults (mostly my husband and mom) that I respect to share these decisions/ideas/etc. with. These conversations aren't always of the "we have x problem, what do you think" but are often more of the talking about how the kid is generally doing, rough spots, is this normal, etc.
Anyway, what occurred to me is that maybe because of how close you guys have been, and your wonderful involvement when the baby was born, and that she's a single mom (and so baring the full brunt of this the majority of the time) - you're one of the few people she can turn to for this kind of sounding board, reality check conversation.
This might be a piece of why your cousin is so different, she has a very different level of physical and emotional support in her day to day life, and so is able to "make space" in her brain for hobbies and other interests.
Also, it's dangerous to compare even though superficially your sister and cousin have a lot of similarities. Your sister could be dealing with health problems (even ones she's not completely aware of), a more challenging student to teacher ratio, more limited classroom resources, a toxic colleague or workplace, a higher needs child, difficulties with her co-parent, difficulties with transitions between the co-parents, difficulties with finances, neighbors, child's daycare could be problematic, etc.
posted by pennypiper at 10:48 AM on October 22, 2015 [11 favorites]
But something a little different that occurred to me as well, though it might take me a minute to get to the relevant bit. One of the things about parenting that I vastly underestimated as a pre-parent (even though I had LOTS of exposure to children) was the weight of all of the parenting decisions. Whether it's truth or a social construct, there's constantly this pressure to make the best possible parenting choice, so you don't MESS UP YOUR CHILD's LIFE. This is an enormous pressure which plays out in hundreds of small decisions every single day.
One of the things that helps (at least for me) is having other trustworthy adults (mostly my husband and mom) that I respect to share these decisions/ideas/etc. with. These conversations aren't always of the "we have x problem, what do you think" but are often more of the talking about how the kid is generally doing, rough spots, is this normal, etc.
Anyway, what occurred to me is that maybe because of how close you guys have been, and your wonderful involvement when the baby was born, and that she's a single mom (and so baring the full brunt of this the majority of the time) - you're one of the few people she can turn to for this kind of sounding board, reality check conversation.
This might be a piece of why your cousin is so different, she has a very different level of physical and emotional support in her day to day life, and so is able to "make space" in her brain for hobbies and other interests.
Also, it's dangerous to compare even though superficially your sister and cousin have a lot of similarities. Your sister could be dealing with health problems (even ones she's not completely aware of), a more challenging student to teacher ratio, more limited classroom resources, a toxic colleague or workplace, a higher needs child, difficulties with her co-parent, difficulties with transitions between the co-parents, difficulties with finances, neighbors, child's daycare could be problematic, etc.
posted by pennypiper at 10:48 AM on October 22, 2015 [11 favorites]
Be kind to your sister and give her the time and space she clearly wants to spend focused on her kid and on being a parent. It's not a fault. If you feel like you want to talk about other things, start a ritual around long-form essays, recipes, photography, the front page of your favorite newspaper, etc., with your sister. Send her an article/recipe/photograph/link every Monday and set a time to talk about it the following Sunday night. Chat for fifteen minutes. Let that be enough for now.
We parents can annoy our loved ones without kids. We love our kids. Our kids amaze us. Being around our kids can make us feel active love and joy and fulfillment in ways other things don't, even people we love immensely. It's a wonderful feeling to hang out with our children, especially if we've come to parenthood after 40. We know how transitory things are, how fleeting, how important being present in your life really is. We don't take as much for granted as we did in our twenties and thirties.
Also, kids need their parents to be available and consistent, especially after a divorce. A lot.
It's okay to miss your sister. It's also okay that she is focused on mothering her kid. It's her one shot at it. Cut her some slack.
posted by TryTheTilapia at 10:53 AM on October 22, 2015 [2 favorites]
We parents can annoy our loved ones without kids. We love our kids. Our kids amaze us. Being around our kids can make us feel active love and joy and fulfillment in ways other things don't, even people we love immensely. It's a wonderful feeling to hang out with our children, especially if we've come to parenthood after 40. We know how transitory things are, how fleeting, how important being present in your life really is. We don't take as much for granted as we did in our twenties and thirties.
Also, kids need their parents to be available and consistent, especially after a divorce. A lot.
It's okay to miss your sister. It's also okay that she is focused on mothering her kid. It's her one shot at it. Cut her some slack.
posted by TryTheTilapia at 10:53 AM on October 22, 2015 [2 favorites]
Can you stick it out until the kid goes to kindergarten? (Is the kid already in kindergarten?)
posted by quincunx at 11:34 AM on October 22, 2015
posted by quincunx at 11:34 AM on October 22, 2015
* I don't know how they are for her, but these big "let's catch up!" phone calls are awkward for me. We don't have kids so my life has much less forward motion than hers; the answer to "what's new?" is "not much." Very little changes here, so we just end up talking about... niece.
I thought you wanted to talk with her about hobbies, books, LBGT issues, tv shows, movies...?
C'mon, you're all like "WE NEVER JUST TALK" and she's like "Okay I scheduled time to chat, READY SET HERE'S YOUR ENTRANCE, LET'S GO" and you're like "... ... ... idk, nothin' new."
posted by desuetude at 11:40 AM on October 22, 2015 [10 favorites]
I thought you wanted to talk with her about hobbies, books, LBGT issues, tv shows, movies...?
C'mon, you're all like "WE NEVER JUST TALK" and she's like "Okay I scheduled time to chat, READY SET HERE'S YOUR ENTRANCE, LET'S GO" and you're like "... ... ... idk, nothin' new."
posted by desuetude at 11:40 AM on October 22, 2015 [10 favorites]
Best answer: Most women do disappear for a while when they have kids, some for longer than others. I have a "dark age" from when my son was little, and I still sometimes find out really common knowledge kinds of things that I was oblivious to.
Five and a half years is pretty long to be kid-holed, but I've seen longer. Sometimes that kind of thing turns into a rut, though. And every now and again, women become fully subsumed by caregiver roles. I'd suggest you let things be mostly, but send out feelers. Be prepared for phone calls with topics for discussion about the sorts of things she is or used to be interested in, stay in touch and stay available to her. She'll probably be ready again someday. Just let her know you'll be there when she is.
posted by ernielundquist at 11:50 AM on October 22, 2015 [1 favorite]
Five and a half years is pretty long to be kid-holed, but I've seen longer. Sometimes that kind of thing turns into a rut, though. And every now and again, women become fully subsumed by caregiver roles. I'd suggest you let things be mostly, but send out feelers. Be prepared for phone calls with topics for discussion about the sorts of things she is or used to be interested in, stay in touch and stay available to her. She'll probably be ready again someday. Just let her know you'll be there when she is.
posted by ernielundquist at 11:50 AM on October 22, 2015 [1 favorite]
> Most women do disappear for a while when they have kid
There's a valuable early-childhood lesson on object permanence, here. I'm sure I have friends who think I disappeared, but I also have a lot of new friends who I met when my kids and I started hanging out at playgrounds, at playdates, troop meetings, schools, community events, etc.
Just because a woman isn't currently doing the things you used to do with her doesn't mean she's become a Stepford wife (as per the mildly offensive title of this Ask Me) or become "one-dimensional." She might be leading a perfectly full, busy, and enjoyable life. You're just not seeing the center of it.
posted by The corpse in the library at 12:16 PM on October 22, 2015 [15 favorites]
There's a valuable early-childhood lesson on object permanence, here. I'm sure I have friends who think I disappeared, but I also have a lot of new friends who I met when my kids and I started hanging out at playgrounds, at playdates, troop meetings, schools, community events, etc.
Just because a woman isn't currently doing the things you used to do with her doesn't mean she's become a Stepford wife (as per the mildly offensive title of this Ask Me) or become "one-dimensional." She might be leading a perfectly full, busy, and enjoyable life. You're just not seeing the center of it.
posted by The corpse in the library at 12:16 PM on October 22, 2015 [15 favorites]
talking about my kid is social lubricant that hides the fact that I just do not have the mental energy to brain, most of the time.
My son is now 7, I was 43 when he was born. I went back to work 4 yrs ago, and the one of my brothers that I am closest to has given me feedback similar to what you write about your sister. Truth is, a lot of times I am simply to wiped out for anything more than talking about my son. My husband travels a lot so while I am not a single mom I am alone with him mostly during the week. It is tiring to work, focus on the child and his needs and in some fashoin my own needs. I simply cannot go back to evenings of deep conversation and late nights in pubs. For a while our commuinaction was very limited. Only now, with my son turning 7 and becoming more independent I have started to pick up some sort of social life whcih also includes my brother. But still often it is a choice - will I spend my evening out this week with best friend, on my own (what luxury) or with my brother. But this is not that I do not cae about him. quite often in fact i miss our social life together. I miss it but can't have it.
And when I am all tired, exhausted and yet do want to make a connection I talk about what is most on my mind right now, which is my son.
I think the best you can do is to stick it out, it will change. I notice how much more energy I have for my self as he grows older, 5 1/2 was a very hard time in fact. As I have more energy for myself also my ability and focus to reconnect with my brotehr increases. Yesterday, we had dinner together, the first time in ages (and we live in the same city). Be patient, if you can. Assume she misses it as much as you do but is currently in a different phase of her life.
posted by 15L06 at 12:21 PM on October 22, 2015 [5 favorites]
My son is now 7, I was 43 when he was born. I went back to work 4 yrs ago, and the one of my brothers that I am closest to has given me feedback similar to what you write about your sister. Truth is, a lot of times I am simply to wiped out for anything more than talking about my son. My husband travels a lot so while I am not a single mom I am alone with him mostly during the week. It is tiring to work, focus on the child and his needs and in some fashoin my own needs. I simply cannot go back to evenings of deep conversation and late nights in pubs. For a while our commuinaction was very limited. Only now, with my son turning 7 and becoming more independent I have started to pick up some sort of social life whcih also includes my brother. But still often it is a choice - will I spend my evening out this week with best friend, on my own (what luxury) or with my brother. But this is not that I do not cae about him. quite often in fact i miss our social life together. I miss it but can't have it.
And when I am all tired, exhausted and yet do want to make a connection I talk about what is most on my mind right now, which is my son.
I think the best you can do is to stick it out, it will change. I notice how much more energy I have for my self as he grows older, 5 1/2 was a very hard time in fact. As I have more energy for myself also my ability and focus to reconnect with my brotehr increases. Yesterday, we had dinner together, the first time in ages (and we live in the same city). Be patient, if you can. Assume she misses it as much as you do but is currently in a different phase of her life.
posted by 15L06 at 12:21 PM on October 22, 2015 [5 favorites]
Yeah, I can see how this would be a bummer. It sounds like motherhood was a long-wanted and hard-won identity for her, and she's really going all into it. And now you're wanting a certain level or kind of connection, or just to have more in common to talk about again, and you're not getting it. And that's a hard thing to bring up.
What happens when you ask her questions: how's work? how's your neighborhood?
Have you tried asking her about feelings in an attempt to get beneath the surface child-related stuff? "Wow, you're SO busy. How IS it for you being that busy? Do you ever get time for yourself?"
What I tried to get from your post is what need of yours is going unmet or what you're missing. I saw you list unscheduled calls as something you miss (and wondered whether the texting suggestion would help), but what else -- her bringing other topics to your calls? her asking more about you? I'm wondering because "I don't like who you are now" isn't a great starting point for finding constructive solutions, and I think if I could better picture what you want or miss, it might be easier to give suggestions.
Have you tried reminiscing as a topic? "Remember when blah blah blah?" That might start to spark the kind of connection you want to get back to. Then, especially if you were in person together or if it was just a good time to talk on her end, you could lead from there into a little bit of sharing about how you're feeling. "I kinda miss you, or not you -- obviously we're talking> now! -- but some of the ways we used to be able to relate, y'know? I know you're super busy, and you're a great mom to Kid, and I really want to support you and her, but sometimes I feel like it's hard to [whatever you most miss or wish you could do: have deeper conversations, have the spontaneity we used to, have the snarky jokey moments we used to have, feel like MY comparatively boring life is at all interesting to you, feel like you're available if there was a random thing in my day that I wanted to share...]. I wonder if there's any way to still get a little of that sometimes."
One last, very random idea that occurs to me is that surely she can't talk about Kid with the kid. Maybe look for conversational bridges there? "Did you guys see the lunar eclipse? I heard ... Water on Mars... astronomy blah blah, isn't astronomy cool?" I find that my friends with kids can talk a lot about, like, lizards and caterpillars, because those things come up with their kids. Then again, my friends are science geeks so they take their kids to see lizards. But maybe conversation would flow more if you found shared interests via whatever she does with Kid, like arts and crafts projects, or whatever.
I do think this could shift on its own in the next couple years, as the kid starts elementary school and becomes more social and independent. Good luck!
posted by salvia at 1:01 PM on October 22, 2015 [5 favorites]
What happens when you ask her questions: how's work? how's your neighborhood?
Have you tried asking her about feelings in an attempt to get beneath the surface child-related stuff? "Wow, you're SO busy. How IS it for you being that busy? Do you ever get time for yourself?"
What I tried to get from your post is what need of yours is going unmet or what you're missing. I saw you list unscheduled calls as something you miss (and wondered whether the texting suggestion would help), but what else -- her bringing other topics to your calls? her asking more about you? I'm wondering because "I don't like who you are now" isn't a great starting point for finding constructive solutions, and I think if I could better picture what you want or miss, it might be easier to give suggestions.
Have you tried reminiscing as a topic? "Remember when blah blah blah?" That might start to spark the kind of connection you want to get back to. Then, especially if you were in person together or if it was just a good time to talk on her end, you could lead from there into a little bit of sharing about how you're feeling. "I kinda miss you, or not you -- obviously we're talking> now! -- but some of the ways we used to be able to relate, y'know? I know you're super busy, and you're a great mom to Kid, and I really want to support you and her, but sometimes I feel like it's hard to [whatever you most miss or wish you could do: have deeper conversations, have the spontaneity we used to, have the snarky jokey moments we used to have, feel like MY comparatively boring life is at all interesting to you, feel like you're available if there was a random thing in my day that I wanted to share...]. I wonder if there's any way to still get a little of that sometimes."
One last, very random idea that occurs to me is that surely she can't talk about Kid with the kid. Maybe look for conversational bridges there? "Did you guys see the lunar eclipse? I heard ... Water on Mars... astronomy blah blah, isn't astronomy cool?" I find that my friends with kids can talk a lot about, like, lizards and caterpillars, because those things come up with their kids. Then again, my friends are science geeks so they take their kids to see lizards. But maybe conversation would flow more if you found shared interests via whatever she does with Kid, like arts and crafts projects, or whatever.
I do think this could shift on its own in the next couple years, as the kid starts elementary school and becomes more social and independent. Good luck!
posted by salvia at 1:01 PM on October 22, 2015 [5 favorites]
FWIW, I was a single mother with full custody and full financial and every other responsibility for my son until he was 17.5 years old. I supported a good friend and her child for close to a year after she left her partner and they came to stay with me. My sister is currently stuck in full-time caregiver mode with two kind of special needs kids and would tell you so herself, and another friend of mine has a serious case of empty nest syndrome where she has been staying in bed for days at a time since her daughter left for college a couple months ago.
I'm not talking out of my ass here. The kid hole isn't universal, for sure, but it's very much real. I've experienced it and I've seen many of my friends struggle with it as well. Raising children is not only time-consuming, but it can be everything else consuming as well, and a lot of women really can use a hand up when they find themselves emerging from the intensive parenting period.
posted by ernielundquist at 1:12 PM on October 22, 2015 [2 favorites]
I'm not talking out of my ass here. The kid hole isn't universal, for sure, but it's very much real. I've experienced it and I've seen many of my friends struggle with it as well. Raising children is not only time-consuming, but it can be everything else consuming as well, and a lot of women really can use a hand up when they find themselves emerging from the intensive parenting period.
posted by ernielundquist at 1:12 PM on October 22, 2015 [2 favorites]
Here's my life without kid:
- get up bleary-eyed
- eat breakfast
- go to work
- work stuff
- head home
- eat dinner
- social life or sit on the couch
- go to bed
Here's my life with kid:
- get up bleary-eyed, make breakfast for myself and my kid, get myself dressed, get kiddo dressed, attend to 1-5 tantrums regarding breakfast and/or clothing, think of all the things that I need to bring with me for my day, think of and pack up all the things my kid needs
- take kid where kid needs to go, hugs and kisses, lots and lots and lots of talking the whole time (why do kids talk this much? it better be an evolutionary necessity), maybe handle another tantrum
- work, work and think about what needs to get done all day at work so that I can leave on time to pick up kid (this causes daily anxiety), be *on* all day at work because while you are a parent, no one can ever know that this is draining
- pick up kid, hugs and kisses, head home, deal with tantrum in the car (forgot a car snack and kid is always starving)
- and on and on an on
You know what hilarious stories I have about work? Not much. Maybe some creative griping. You know what hilarious stories I have about my kid? Tons. They are literally the most interesting stories I have going right now. My kid learned this year to buckle her own seatbelt. She opens the car door, climbs into her seat and buckles her own seat belt. My monkey is AMAZING.
However, I'm super sympathetic to your issue. What you and your sister need is some shared experiences. Plan a visit for when kiddo is with her father. Or go bigger and meet her somewhere for a get-away. Do the movie night thing with her as others have suggested – it's a shared experience. Carry the conversation a little more. "Have you heard about the...? No? Let me catch you up." Tell a joke. Find a way to laugh about something together. The thing is, she really sounds like she doesn't have enough of her own time to cultivate anything. And if she doesn't have regular ways to release her kid chatter to anyone else (no partner at home? no coworkers to gab with at work?), you may be that release valve. I have lots of people to talk to about my kid and I have a spouse who does equal kid duty. My kid is almost 5 and her independence has freed up previously completely occupied brain space. It's glorious. I think your sister will come out of this.
posted by amanda at 2:04 PM on October 22, 2015 [9 favorites]
- get up bleary-eyed
- eat breakfast
- go to work
- work stuff
- head home
- eat dinner
- social life or sit on the couch
- go to bed
Here's my life with kid:
- get up bleary-eyed, make breakfast for myself and my kid, get myself dressed, get kiddo dressed, attend to 1-5 tantrums regarding breakfast and/or clothing, think of all the things that I need to bring with me for my day, think of and pack up all the things my kid needs
- take kid where kid needs to go, hugs and kisses, lots and lots and lots of talking the whole time (why do kids talk this much? it better be an evolutionary necessity), maybe handle another tantrum
- work, work and think about what needs to get done all day at work so that I can leave on time to pick up kid (this causes daily anxiety), be *on* all day at work because while you are a parent, no one can ever know that this is draining
- pick up kid, hugs and kisses, head home, deal with tantrum in the car (forgot a car snack and kid is always starving)
- and on and on an on
You know what hilarious stories I have about work? Not much. Maybe some creative griping. You know what hilarious stories I have about my kid? Tons. They are literally the most interesting stories I have going right now. My kid learned this year to buckle her own seatbelt. She opens the car door, climbs into her seat and buckles her own seat belt. My monkey is AMAZING.
However, I'm super sympathetic to your issue. What you and your sister need is some shared experiences. Plan a visit for when kiddo is with her father. Or go bigger and meet her somewhere for a get-away. Do the movie night thing with her as others have suggested – it's a shared experience. Carry the conversation a little more. "Have you heard about the...? No? Let me catch you up." Tell a joke. Find a way to laugh about something together. The thing is, she really sounds like she doesn't have enough of her own time to cultivate anything. And if she doesn't have regular ways to release her kid chatter to anyone else (no partner at home? no coworkers to gab with at work?), you may be that release valve. I have lots of people to talk to about my kid and I have a spouse who does equal kid duty. My kid is almost 5 and her independence has freed up previously completely occupied brain space. It's glorious. I think your sister will come out of this.
posted by amanda at 2:04 PM on October 22, 2015 [9 favorites]
I am a mom of two. I have one friend manage to consistently chat with (via text). And that's because we talk anout books.
We read the same books and comment on it while we read.
This is literally the only thing I can concentrate on consistently enough to make it an ongoing conversation.
Freeform chat requires amazing amounts of effort these days. I don't have the energy to come up with topics and pay attention to other people's needs and feelings in a conversation. I routinely feel like "oh no I talked too much / didn't catch that sign the other person was sending".
But reading and complaining about books is awesome.
posted by Omnomnom at 3:04 PM on October 22, 2015 [2 favorites]
We read the same books and comment on it while we read.
This is literally the only thing I can concentrate on consistently enough to make it an ongoing conversation.
Freeform chat requires amazing amounts of effort these days. I don't have the energy to come up with topics and pay attention to other people's needs and feelings in a conversation. I routinely feel like "oh no I talked too much / didn't catch that sign the other person was sending".
But reading and complaining about books is awesome.
posted by Omnomnom at 3:04 PM on October 22, 2015 [2 favorites]
Just knowing DarlingBri's history of posting here, she has very good social intuition. My guess is she's not just silent on the phone expecting her sister to keep her entertained.
From this post, it sounds like you are keen to have short, more frequent and spontaneous conversations about daily life and passing conversations, rather than saying "I'll talk to you on November 1 for 2 hours so we can hash out all the big stuff!" So it's not that you have nothing to bring to the convo, it's that you would rather have the smaller LIFE conversations than a big massive emotional brain-dump more infrequently. I totally get that because I also kind of forget what small or daily things happen to me when I have those big marathon catch-up convos with my long-distance friends.
Maybe your sister doesn't know how to do short, casual and spontaneous conversations if they're going to end up being too intense for her. Could you agree to have slightly longer catch-up calls that are scheduled as needed, but also have more spontaneous conversations about the weather or a funny thing that happened at the grocery store, or the mole you had removed that the doctor was a total jerk about, or whatever? Maybe she can then ease into having more familiar conversations more frequently. If you said, "hey sister, I miss having you as a more frequent part of my life and I know we can't always have big check-in calls, but how about we call each other spontaneously just to say hi with a funny or quirky anecdote now and then? Just to keep the spark alive?" -- if you said that, what do you think she'd say?
And I agree with a few other folks above. Between being the primary parent for a child, negotiating custody transitions (which are exhausting in their own way), teaching elementary school full of chatty and whiny and needy and emotionally intense kids AND school tests AND administration AND union stuff AND budget cutbacks, and minimally keeping up with cooking and cleaning and self-care, and maybe going on her own dates once in awhile or a yoga class a few times a week, I bet she's probably exhausted.
Sometimes the conversations with those you love are actually harder than conversations with distant friends or cousins. She probably sees you as one of the few adults in her life who cares about HER as well as HER KID and is totally subsumed with trying not to freak out over the minutia of day-to-day life as well as the longer issues of building and maintaining a happy life. So you're someone she CAN have the big conversations about and who can deal with the anxieties of raising a kid in the modern world, with a non-traditional parenting agreement, and maybe wanting to date or keep up professionally at the same time. It's a LOT, and I think if she wants to talk to you enough that she schedules appointments in to do it, then it means you ARE important to her.
I think there are two ways to go -- one is increase the low-time, low-investment but high chit-chat forms of communications: text, Instagram, what's app chat, whatever seems to work best for the both of you. Send her funny screen caps, or ask her opinion on what to make for dinner since it looks like your millionaire prince hasn't whisked you away to the castle for a Thursday night supper, or tell her a funny story about someone you know. Call HER spontaneously and say "hey, just wanted to tell you a funny story! And how's neice doing today, anything new or funny in her daily life?" Nothing big or intense, just something that will inspire your sister to tell you a funny or cute story about her.
Can you arrange for a trip for the two of them to come over for Christmas or over the next longer school holiday? Long distance relationships that require talking on the phone are just exhausting for me. I love my nephew dearly and talk to him on Facetime probably at least once a day. My sister and I get a few minutes of facetime as he's eating or playing and we catch up with a few important things and a few mintues of chit-chat about daily BS.
Can you offer to Facetime for a few minutes in the morning or evening? It would build a relationship with your niece on her own, and she can show you stuff she's doing, and you over time you'll get a better sense of how your sister is doing beneath it all.
The other alternative is to say something more honest. It doesn't have to be intense, just ask how she's doing, that you're a bit worried about her, and more than anything a bit sad about losing touch with her. Ask what you can do to be more receptive and available in different ways, and see if any of those things are things you can or want to do.
Best of luck. My relationship with my sister has changed since she had her kid, but she's also ramped up her business and we've been dealing with a family issue together, so I actually feel closer than ever to her. Hope you can work through this together because sisters (with good relationships) are just such deeply wonderful bonds.
posted by barnone at 3:15 PM on October 22, 2015 [9 favorites]
From this post, it sounds like you are keen to have short, more frequent and spontaneous conversations about daily life and passing conversations, rather than saying "I'll talk to you on November 1 for 2 hours so we can hash out all the big stuff!" So it's not that you have nothing to bring to the convo, it's that you would rather have the smaller LIFE conversations than a big massive emotional brain-dump more infrequently. I totally get that because I also kind of forget what small or daily things happen to me when I have those big marathon catch-up convos with my long-distance friends.
Maybe your sister doesn't know how to do short, casual and spontaneous conversations if they're going to end up being too intense for her. Could you agree to have slightly longer catch-up calls that are scheduled as needed, but also have more spontaneous conversations about the weather or a funny thing that happened at the grocery store, or the mole you had removed that the doctor was a total jerk about, or whatever? Maybe she can then ease into having more familiar conversations more frequently. If you said, "hey sister, I miss having you as a more frequent part of my life and I know we can't always have big check-in calls, but how about we call each other spontaneously just to say hi with a funny or quirky anecdote now and then? Just to keep the spark alive?" -- if you said that, what do you think she'd say?
And I agree with a few other folks above. Between being the primary parent for a child, negotiating custody transitions (which are exhausting in their own way), teaching elementary school full of chatty and whiny and needy and emotionally intense kids AND school tests AND administration AND union stuff AND budget cutbacks, and minimally keeping up with cooking and cleaning and self-care, and maybe going on her own dates once in awhile or a yoga class a few times a week, I bet she's probably exhausted.
Sometimes the conversations with those you love are actually harder than conversations with distant friends or cousins. She probably sees you as one of the few adults in her life who cares about HER as well as HER KID and is totally subsumed with trying not to freak out over the minutia of day-to-day life as well as the longer issues of building and maintaining a happy life. So you're someone she CAN have the big conversations about and who can deal with the anxieties of raising a kid in the modern world, with a non-traditional parenting agreement, and maybe wanting to date or keep up professionally at the same time. It's a LOT, and I think if she wants to talk to you enough that she schedules appointments in to do it, then it means you ARE important to her.
I think there are two ways to go -- one is increase the low-time, low-investment but high chit-chat forms of communications: text, Instagram, what's app chat, whatever seems to work best for the both of you. Send her funny screen caps, or ask her opinion on what to make for dinner since it looks like your millionaire prince hasn't whisked you away to the castle for a Thursday night supper, or tell her a funny story about someone you know. Call HER spontaneously and say "hey, just wanted to tell you a funny story! And how's neice doing today, anything new or funny in her daily life?" Nothing big or intense, just something that will inspire your sister to tell you a funny or cute story about her.
Can you arrange for a trip for the two of them to come over for Christmas or over the next longer school holiday? Long distance relationships that require talking on the phone are just exhausting for me. I love my nephew dearly and talk to him on Facetime probably at least once a day. My sister and I get a few minutes of facetime as he's eating or playing and we catch up with a few important things and a few mintues of chit-chat about daily BS.
Can you offer to Facetime for a few minutes in the morning or evening? It would build a relationship with your niece on her own, and she can show you stuff she's doing, and you over time you'll get a better sense of how your sister is doing beneath it all.
The other alternative is to say something more honest. It doesn't have to be intense, just ask how she's doing, that you're a bit worried about her, and more than anything a bit sad about losing touch with her. Ask what you can do to be more receptive and available in different ways, and see if any of those things are things you can or want to do.
Best of luck. My relationship with my sister has changed since she had her kid, but she's also ramped up her business and we've been dealing with a family issue together, so I actually feel closer than ever to her. Hope you can work through this together because sisters (with good relationships) are just such deeply wonderful bonds.
posted by barnone at 3:15 PM on October 22, 2015 [9 favorites]
I can't really have conversations with people with small children because most of them are in the kid hole and cannot talk about anything else for several years. In my experience, parents like this mostly tend to stay in the kid obsession hole until kindergarten or so, at which point they re-emerge like gophers from a hole, suddenly looking up and wondering if there is life out there. Is niece in kindergarten yet? But yeah, you should probably be prepared that she may not leave that hole until niece goes to college, especially if she's not interested in finding any adult/outside interests. Which is really the problem, isn't it?
I did like the suggestion that the two of you watch something together or do some other thing that you could talk about, though.
posted by jenfullmoon at 6:29 PM on October 22, 2015 [3 favorites]
I did like the suggestion that the two of you watch something together or do some other thing that you could talk about, though.
posted by jenfullmoon at 6:29 PM on October 22, 2015 [3 favorites]
Phone calls must be scheduled, still
I am not a mother, nor will I ever be, but I did want to say that at least in my social circles (which are comprised almost entirely of childless urban twentysomethings) this is not an unreasonable expectation. It's not that I refuse to answer unscheduled phone calls, but I really do appreciate having some advance notice to set aside time to talk if it's not an emergency or urgent thing, especially now that texting has made it way easier to coordinate these things.
I have a friend who likes to call me randomly on his commute home from work and we have been playing phone tag for over a week because even though I don't have a kid, I have chores to do and errands to run and half the time I'm on the subway and I'm not always free, right?
posted by andrewesque at 5:14 AM on October 23, 2015 [1 favorite]
I am not a mother, nor will I ever be, but I did want to say that at least in my social circles (which are comprised almost entirely of childless urban twentysomethings) this is not an unreasonable expectation. It's not that I refuse to answer unscheduled phone calls, but I really do appreciate having some advance notice to set aside time to talk if it's not an emergency or urgent thing, especially now that texting has made it way easier to coordinate these things.
I have a friend who likes to call me randomly on his commute home from work and we have been playing phone tag for over a week because even though I don't have a kid, I have chores to do and errands to run and half the time I'm on the subway and I'm not always free, right?
posted by andrewesque at 5:14 AM on October 23, 2015 [1 favorite]
Response by poster: Thank you for all of the feedback (yes, all of it!)
> I think this is pretty much the reaction of any childless adult talking to a new mother.
Actually, I think this is why I find this situation to be so distressing. Because I absolutely do not believe this. I passionately reject the notion that motherhood must divide women into the haves and the havenots. I am cognizent and respectful of the Kid Hole, and have managed to maintain friendships with a very high percentage of my women friends through many stages of parenting. The women I have not been able to weather the transition with were the mothers "eager to disappear into their children." I think I am scared that is my sister, and what that would mean.
I should have been clearer when I said We don't have kids so my life has much less forward motion than hers; the answer to "what's new?" is "not much." Very little changes here, so we just end up talking about... niece.
When you ask my sister what's new, she had endless answers because she has a small child and everything is new. School is new. Ballet is new. Halloween is new. There is a lot that is new, even though all of these answers are about Niece and not about my sister.
When you ask me what's new, the answer is not much because not much changes in my personal life. But that doesn't mean I can't make conversation (I am a sparkling conversationalist, thank you very much!). Bernie Sanders is new. TTIP is new. Star Wars: Episode VII is new. That awesome Lady Byron and Her Daughters book is new. But... I guess this is an extended Dark Age because none of that finds fertile soil, which is why this is so hard. I tell her about volunteer stuff I'm doing or the foster dogs we have, and she makes nice noises but she doesn't ask questions, so I read that as not being particularly interested.
I actually posted this question because I asked my mother "Does Sister ever talk to you about anything other than Niece?" and her answer was "No, she doesn't."
Anyway, I've read all these replies several times, and I'm going to:
a) Ask her what works best for her
b) Throw out some casual chats in Messenger (I can't text because: dyslexia)
c) Try to watch the same thing on Netflix so we have something to chat about
d) Maybe send her an email that lightly touches on this so we can hopefully be making an effort together
Thank you again; I appreciate everyone's thoughts and the time spent sharing them, as always.
posted by DarlingBri at 10:21 PM on October 23, 2015 [13 favorites]
> I think this is pretty much the reaction of any childless adult talking to a new mother.
Actually, I think this is why I find this situation to be so distressing. Because I absolutely do not believe this. I passionately reject the notion that motherhood must divide women into the haves and the havenots. I am cognizent and respectful of the Kid Hole, and have managed to maintain friendships with a very high percentage of my women friends through many stages of parenting. The women I have not been able to weather the transition with were the mothers "eager to disappear into their children." I think I am scared that is my sister, and what that would mean.
I should have been clearer when I said We don't have kids so my life has much less forward motion than hers; the answer to "what's new?" is "not much." Very little changes here, so we just end up talking about... niece.
When you ask my sister what's new, she had endless answers because she has a small child and everything is new. School is new. Ballet is new. Halloween is new. There is a lot that is new, even though all of these answers are about Niece and not about my sister.
When you ask me what's new, the answer is not much because not much changes in my personal life. But that doesn't mean I can't make conversation (I am a sparkling conversationalist, thank you very much!). Bernie Sanders is new. TTIP is new. Star Wars: Episode VII is new. That awesome Lady Byron and Her Daughters book is new. But... I guess this is an extended Dark Age because none of that finds fertile soil, which is why this is so hard. I tell her about volunteer stuff I'm doing or the foster dogs we have, and she makes nice noises but she doesn't ask questions, so I read that as not being particularly interested.
I actually posted this question because I asked my mother "Does Sister ever talk to you about anything other than Niece?" and her answer was "No, she doesn't."
Anyway, I've read all these replies several times, and I'm going to:
a) Ask her what works best for her
b) Throw out some casual chats in Messenger (I can't text because: dyslexia)
c) Try to watch the same thing on Netflix so we have something to chat about
d) Maybe send her an email that lightly touches on this so we can hopefully be making an effort together
Thank you again; I appreciate everyone's thoughts and the time spent sharing them, as always.
posted by DarlingBri at 10:21 PM on October 23, 2015 [13 favorites]
Response by poster: Putting this down to some kind of wacky brain meltdown on her part because she's an older mother who really really wanted a kid is insulting and dismissive of the sheer amount of time involved in single parenting.
That isn't what I said, nor is it a connection I drew. I thought the fact that this was a high-stakes, much-wanted child might be pertinent. Nor am I dismissive of the time involved in single parenting. Yes, I am frustrated by the fact that I can no longer just call my sister, but I also think it's OK to mourn things that are lost in a relationship going through transition, as this one clearly is.
posted by DarlingBri at 10:37 PM on October 23, 2015 [8 favorites]
That isn't what I said, nor is it a connection I drew. I thought the fact that this was a high-stakes, much-wanted child might be pertinent. Nor am I dismissive of the time involved in single parenting. Yes, I am frustrated by the fact that I can no longer just call my sister, but I also think it's OK to mourn things that are lost in a relationship going through transition, as this one clearly is.
posted by DarlingBri at 10:37 PM on October 23, 2015 [8 favorites]
This thread is closed to new comments.
That's what pops to mind. It's hard to guess. Have you tried to ask her about it? Or is it just too sensitive to even try talking about with her?
posted by jbenben at 8:11 AM on October 22, 2015 [7 favorites]