CBT: Feelings _before_ Thoughts?
September 27, 2015 8:07 AM Subscribe
Have you found that a basic idea around CBT simply doesn't ring true for you?
My therapist and I were discussing ways to work on my anxiety. I've been with her awhile so nothing very new was said (yet), but I offhandedly mentioned that I had tried CBT in the past and didn't really get comfortable with it. She said in response that she had tried to get training for it, but it never sunk in. She felt that the idea of thoughts generating feelings didn't always ring true.
I've come across that idea -- unidirectional thoughts->feelings -- as a near-tenet of the practice in various books. However, it has almost never rung true for me. Almost invariably, I discover I am feeling a certain way first and while I can't say that identifying a thought behind that feeling is impossible, often times I know I am guessing. _Maybe_ this thought, which feels kind of lousy now that I form the words in my mind, could be generating the way I feel. But is this feeling I have in response to that thought? Or am I simply thinking about it now? Who's to say? That is... if I can't?
I'm curious if any one else has found this basic idea around CBT either flawed or something Not True For Me. Was there a way to work with the practice anyway? Or is something else more agreeable?
My therapist and I were discussing ways to work on my anxiety. I've been with her awhile so nothing very new was said (yet), but I offhandedly mentioned that I had tried CBT in the past and didn't really get comfortable with it. She said in response that she had tried to get training for it, but it never sunk in. She felt that the idea of thoughts generating feelings didn't always ring true.
I've come across that idea -- unidirectional thoughts->feelings -- as a near-tenet of the practice in various books. However, it has almost never rung true for me. Almost invariably, I discover I am feeling a certain way first and while I can't say that identifying a thought behind that feeling is impossible, often times I know I am guessing. _Maybe_ this thought, which feels kind of lousy now that I form the words in my mind, could be generating the way I feel. But is this feeling I have in response to that thought? Or am I simply thinking about it now? Who's to say? That is... if I can't?
I'm curious if any one else has found this basic idea around CBT either flawed or something Not True For Me. Was there a way to work with the practice anyway? Or is something else more agreeable?
Best answer: I'm not sure if I explained that at all well. Basically, many types of therapy, especially behavioral therapies, assume that there are lots of cycles of behaviors, thoughts, or feelings, and that it's not necessarily helpful to pinpoint what point in the cycle is the "cause" of the cycle, as much as it is helpful to just jump in and change the easiest-to-change part of the cycle, because that's going to stop the entire cycle. It's easiest to describe with couples: Partner A feels subtly smothered and so slightly distances, Partner B feels subtly abandoned and so slightly clings, Partner A feels more smothered and so distances more, Partner B feels more abandoned and so clings more, etc. But the partners may not consciously realize what's happening until Round 5 of that, when the effects are really obvious because they're screaming at each other. And while I presented it as Partner A's feelings starting the cycle, I could easily identify Partner B's need for closeness as the original cycle-starting impetus.
So a therapist and client(s) might decide to start with what seems like Step 5 of the cycle, and that work might seem like they're saying Step 5 is the first step in the cycle, but it's not -- they're just saying that Step 5 is the most clinically fixable, and that fixing that step is going to change the entire cycle for the better.
CBT says that dealing with irrational thoughts is the most clinically fixable part of the feelings/thoughts/behaviors interconnected cycle. So the work starts there.
posted by jaguar at 8:25 AM on September 27, 2015 [18 favorites]
So a therapist and client(s) might decide to start with what seems like Step 5 of the cycle, and that work might seem like they're saying Step 5 is the first step in the cycle, but it's not -- they're just saying that Step 5 is the most clinically fixable, and that fixing that step is going to change the entire cycle for the better.
CBT says that dealing with irrational thoughts is the most clinically fixable part of the feelings/thoughts/behaviors interconnected cycle. So the work starts there.
posted by jaguar at 8:25 AM on September 27, 2015 [18 favorites]
Some of the "feelings" that are a problem for me, the vague high-strung sense of anxiety that exists before I'm worried about anything in particular? Those are the things I take medication for. If my anxiety exists and my brain is just making up excuses to be anxious, then I can't solve that with thinking. The CBT part is for the rest of it. I don't think you can therapy your way out of something that exists before you're even thinking about it, like I used to wake up out of a dead sleep into a panic attack. Therapy can't help that. CBT techniques can help the rest of my life work in such a way that the occasional out-of-nowhere anxiety is less of a big deal, and I only take my benzos a couple times a month now because coping better the rest of the time helps those incidents happen less frequently.
posted by Sequence at 8:35 AM on September 27, 2015 [6 favorites]
posted by Sequence at 8:35 AM on September 27, 2015 [6 favorites]
Personally, I come from a complicated family, and I spent a lot of time trying to always be the happy, cheerful, steady one, because that's what my family needed me to be. That meant trying to box up or deny any other feelings, because there wasn't a space to express them. I've been working pretty hard at it, but I still have trouble now even naming how I'm feeling sometimes (mad? sad? guilty? lonely?) and I also have trouble figuring out what exactly is making me unhappy once I've identified the emotion that I'm feeling.
Here are a few things that have helped me: this list of 10 types of distorted thinking, which totally opened my eyes to some of my more destructive thought processes, and this Feeling Wheel, which gives me a better vocabulary for describing to myself how I'm feeling.
Incidentally, the 10 types of distorted thinking list comes from CBT.
posted by colfax at 8:43 AM on September 27, 2015 [8 favorites]
Here are a few things that have helped me: this list of 10 types of distorted thinking, which totally opened my eyes to some of my more destructive thought processes, and this Feeling Wheel, which gives me a better vocabulary for describing to myself how I'm feeling.
Incidentally, the 10 types of distorted thinking list comes from CBT.
posted by colfax at 8:43 AM on September 27, 2015 [8 favorites]
I have found that therapy incorporating mindfulness, acceptance of feelings, and ACT worked better for me than CBT alone. Sticking very rigidly to Feeling Good-type CBT was frustrating because I didn't have that fine a degree of control over my thoughts. I think this has more to do with having a therapist with a more fluid approach than the modalities alone, though.
posted by thetortoise at 8:45 AM on September 27, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by thetortoise at 8:45 AM on September 27, 2015 [2 favorites]
(I also want to add that in my case I do best with a modified form of CBT because I have Asperger's syndrome and have trouble distinguishing strictly between feelings and thoughts.)
posted by thetortoise at 8:52 AM on September 27, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by thetortoise at 8:52 AM on September 27, 2015 [2 favorites]
I'd like to suggest that maybe you can't always *know* which thoughts are creating certain feelings. Also, depending on your degree of self-awareness, it just might be really hard. I think it's useful to reflect, to be aware of your feelings and to be able to think of possible reasons... and I think with time you may actually identify some specific things. But I think a lot of it is imagination, and a lot of it is just supposition.
Also, you may find writing these thought processes creates different results that just thinking in a loop and feeling frustrated. For me, writing anchors my ideas and makes it way easier to develop them.
posted by Locochona at 8:58 AM on September 27, 2015
Also, you may find writing these thought processes creates different results that just thinking in a loop and feeling frustrated. For me, writing anchors my ideas and makes it way easier to develop them.
posted by Locochona at 8:58 AM on September 27, 2015
Best answer: From a more philosophical standpoint (rather than CBT in particular), emotion is quite interesting. A good overview (if a bit overlong and perhaps too involved depending on your taste) is Cheshire Calhoun and Robert C. Solomon's paper What is an Emotion? [Direct RTF Link]. If you don't want to read the whole thing, I'd suggest sections 2.4: Cognitive Theories, as well as sections 3.4, 3.5, 3.9, and 3.10.
From Section 3.10, Emotions and Knowledge:
"Among the various ways we have of controlling or eliciting our emotions (taking drugs, avoiding or looking for certain situations), by far the most philosophical, and sometimes the most effective, is selfunderstanding. A further knowledge of ourselves and our emotions may be the first step to changing our emotions, and gaining a new fact or two may be a sure way of getting rid of, or adding, an emotion. In the simplest possible case, finding out that the belief upon which one's emotion is based is false immediately changes the emotion. For instance, Joe is angry at Harry for stealing his car; then he finds that Harry did not, in fact, steal the car so he is no longer angry, since there is no longer anything to be angry "about." If beliefs are essential components of emotion, then a change in the belief will typically (although not always) alter the emotion, and knowledge must be considered as contributing to, not opposing, our emotions. Of course, there are irrational emotions, based upon demonstrably false beliefs. And it is also true that, even with a radical change in knowledge, the emotion may still remain. (For example, Joe may find out that Harry did not steal his car, but he is still furious with Harry for making him think that he had stolen the car.) But even if changing beliefs does not always change an emotion, knowledge is nevertheless a critical determinant of emotion, and often the test of its rationality as well."
posted by papayaninja at 9:04 AM on September 27, 2015 [6 favorites]
From Section 3.10, Emotions and Knowledge:
"Among the various ways we have of controlling or eliciting our emotions (taking drugs, avoiding or looking for certain situations), by far the most philosophical, and sometimes the most effective, is selfunderstanding. A further knowledge of ourselves and our emotions may be the first step to changing our emotions, and gaining a new fact or two may be a sure way of getting rid of, or adding, an emotion. In the simplest possible case, finding out that the belief upon which one's emotion is based is false immediately changes the emotion. For instance, Joe is angry at Harry for stealing his car; then he finds that Harry did not, in fact, steal the car so he is no longer angry, since there is no longer anything to be angry "about." If beliefs are essential components of emotion, then a change in the belief will typically (although not always) alter the emotion, and knowledge must be considered as contributing to, not opposing, our emotions. Of course, there are irrational emotions, based upon demonstrably false beliefs. And it is also true that, even with a radical change in knowledge, the emotion may still remain. (For example, Joe may find out that Harry did not steal his car, but he is still furious with Harry for making him think that he had stolen the car.) But even if changing beliefs does not always change an emotion, knowledge is nevertheless a critical determinant of emotion, and often the test of its rationality as well."
posted by papayaninja at 9:04 AM on September 27, 2015 [6 favorites]
Yeah, I think it's quite credible to say that it isn't unidirectional -- thoughts and feelings are probably more of a network/cycle than any kind of production line where feelings are a pure effect of thought-causes.
This doesn't mean CBT isn't helpful, though. It just means it's one tool that can dampen or stop cascading effects. For some people, it even seems to be a good enough tool that they don't need many others. Mileage varies.
Around the time I became familiar with it, one other tool I needed was to realize that I *couldn't* always control how I felt. Since part of the spectrum of familiar feeling at the time was "crushing depression," this was not a cheery thought, but combined with the knowledge that even this feeling probably transient, it let me uncouple that depression from the direction it usually tried to drive thinking ("you'll never feel better, there's no way out, what's the point of doing anything") and replace it with "welp, I feel awful, can't seem to do anything immediate about it, suppose I should go about reasonable business and see what happens next."
A CBT-focused practitioner might look at that and say CBT was exactly what I was doing by interrogating those thoughts and replacing them, but I think the relationship was more complex, since the thoughts were about existing feelings and the point was more to mediate my own behavior and stop a larger bad cascade than immediately change feelings.
I think CBT is very useful, but it's only part of a larger effort to come to grips with the fact that although we *live* in our feelings, and they're often a vector for important information about what's going on inside us and around us, they have their own limitations.
posted by weston at 9:18 AM on September 27, 2015 [3 favorites]
This doesn't mean CBT isn't helpful, though. It just means it's one tool that can dampen or stop cascading effects. For some people, it even seems to be a good enough tool that they don't need many others. Mileage varies.
Around the time I became familiar with it, one other tool I needed was to realize that I *couldn't* always control how I felt. Since part of the spectrum of familiar feeling at the time was "crushing depression," this was not a cheery thought, but combined with the knowledge that even this feeling probably transient, it let me uncouple that depression from the direction it usually tried to drive thinking ("you'll never feel better, there's no way out, what's the point of doing anything") and replace it with "welp, I feel awful, can't seem to do anything immediate about it, suppose I should go about reasonable business and see what happens next."
A CBT-focused practitioner might look at that and say CBT was exactly what I was doing by interrogating those thoughts and replacing them, but I think the relationship was more complex, since the thoughts were about existing feelings and the point was more to mediate my own behavior and stop a larger bad cascade than immediately change feelings.
I think CBT is very useful, but it's only part of a larger effort to come to grips with the fact that although we *live* in our feelings, and they're often a vector for important information about what's going on inside us and around us, they have their own limitations.
posted by weston at 9:18 AM on September 27, 2015 [3 favorites]
Have I been able to turn a bad feeling around with a belief that actively opposes an unhelpful but deep-seated belief right in that moment when I'm sad or anxious? Not often, no. Right in the moment, just calming down or distracting myself is the best I can do (works best if I focus on the latter). I have had to rely on really physical methods for that (deep breaths [of tobacco most recently, tbh, but also just oxygen sometimes], a walk, cold water in the case of bad anxiety, hot showers if sad). Have I been able to make myself believe some blanket positive belief that seems ridiculous to me in a bad moment, like "I'm a huge success" when in reality I'm not, by any standard? No.
But becoming familiar with the general idea of attributions and attributional change (actually not through therapy, though) has been helpful. It's less hard to apply that in calmer moments, so that I can change my explanations of negative events. That is CBT, basically.
(E.g.: "did I screw particular thing x up because I'm a complete fuckup?" When upset: "Yes, because, of course I'm a fuckup". Not upset: "No, because look at the whole story, here: [and then I analyze and enumerate all the contextual factors that I think contributed to that particular negative event and that event only]". It's like what you'd say to a friend who's going through a tough time.)
If I do that kind of parsing of factors and explaining enough times when I'm calm, that does help create a kind of space for me to look for practical ways to address the factors I'd identified as contributing to the problem. (E.g., if it was "you had too much on your plate", taking less on. If I'm stumped on this one, good friends and family sometimes have ideas, so talking to them helps.) It also makes it less likely that I'll get worked up in the first place.
As far as creating new positive beliefs, the most effective way for me to do that has been to do things that make them believable. Was I "a success" at time point A when I wasn't doing anything at all? No, I couldn't really say that. But I could forgive myself for it, because of the explanations I gave myself.
Could I say I was "a success" at time point B, by which time I'd identified a solution to problematic factor 1 - maybe by talking it through with the help of some friends - and given myself a little goal to shoot for, and achieved it? Yes, if I define success as achievement of that little goal. (Again, CBT.) So that involves, also, finding little goals that make sense, as a first step, and relieving myself of the expectation that I need to have achieved whatever socially derived idea of what success is, and not comparing myself to others.
Again, explaining things to myself helped with that: no one else has had my particular start in life or experiences, just me. (I can't say I've consciously used CBT in a formal way for that, it's been more down to just reflecting on life events.) So it only makes sense to compare my current self to my past self, and no one else.
Thinking of myself as a person-in-process who is capable of change is I think probably fundamental to this. And I believe that, because the science and theory I've read (e.g. neuroplasticity) points to that being true. And I've seen and read about actual people changing and adapting (e.g. anyone who'se through divorce, immigration, job loss and change - look for these examples). And I've also seen it in happen in myself over time.
But like, unlikely Stuart Smalley type positive affirmations in the moment - no, not so helpful.
posted by cotton dress sock at 9:45 AM on September 27, 2015 [4 favorites]
But becoming familiar with the general idea of attributions and attributional change (actually not through therapy, though) has been helpful. It's less hard to apply that in calmer moments, so that I can change my explanations of negative events. That is CBT, basically.
(E.g.: "did I screw particular thing x up because I'm a complete fuckup?" When upset: "Yes, because, of course I'm a fuckup". Not upset: "No, because look at the whole story, here: [and then I analyze and enumerate all the contextual factors that I think contributed to that particular negative event and that event only]". It's like what you'd say to a friend who's going through a tough time.)
If I do that kind of parsing of factors and explaining enough times when I'm calm, that does help create a kind of space for me to look for practical ways to address the factors I'd identified as contributing to the problem. (E.g., if it was "you had too much on your plate", taking less on. If I'm stumped on this one, good friends and family sometimes have ideas, so talking to them helps.) It also makes it less likely that I'll get worked up in the first place.
As far as creating new positive beliefs, the most effective way for me to do that has been to do things that make them believable. Was I "a success" at time point A when I wasn't doing anything at all? No, I couldn't really say that. But I could forgive myself for it, because of the explanations I gave myself.
Could I say I was "a success" at time point B, by which time I'd identified a solution to problematic factor 1 - maybe by talking it through with the help of some friends - and given myself a little goal to shoot for, and achieved it? Yes, if I define success as achievement of that little goal. (Again, CBT.) So that involves, also, finding little goals that make sense, as a first step, and relieving myself of the expectation that I need to have achieved whatever socially derived idea of what success is, and not comparing myself to others.
Again, explaining things to myself helped with that: no one else has had my particular start in life or experiences, just me. (I can't say I've consciously used CBT in a formal way for that, it's been more down to just reflecting on life events.) So it only makes sense to compare my current self to my past self, and no one else.
Thinking of myself as a person-in-process who is capable of change is I think probably fundamental to this. And I believe that, because the science and theory I've read (e.g. neuroplasticity) points to that being true. And I've seen and read about actual people changing and adapting (e.g. anyone who'se through divorce, immigration, job loss and change - look for these examples). And I've also seen it in happen in myself over time.
But like, unlikely Stuart Smalley type positive affirmations in the moment - no, not so helpful.
posted by cotton dress sock at 9:45 AM on September 27, 2015 [4 favorites]
I practiced CBT while I was depressed and I always understood it to treat thoughts and feelings as a two-way street. There are times when feelings lead to a thought (feeling cold -> thoughts associated with that feeling), and there are times when a thought leads to a feeling (thinking that person is very attractive -> physical feelings of sexuality / increased blood flow etc).
I think that regardless of which comes first, thought or feeling, CBT can help by encouraging you to be mindful in both cases. 1) recognizing warped thoughts can help to weed out those thoughts that aren't necessarily helpful 2) learning that when you do have a thought in reaction to a feeling there is a moment where you can endeavor to recognize that this particular thought is a reaction to this particular feeling and that you don't have to allow that thought to sweep you up. You can just sort of watch that thought and say "that is what popped into my mind after that feeling, but I don't necessarily have to believe it." Do this enough and you become the Observer of your thoughtstream and can get better at which thoughts you allow yourself to identify with while letting others slip though.
More to your question, however, there were certainly things in CBT that I found didn't ring true - but like anything you don't need to fully subscribe to an ideology in order for it to benefit you. I simply took away the things that worked for me and ignored things that didn't. What worked for me in CBT was the "recognizing warped thoughts" aspect of it as well as cataloging and observing my default reactions to things - which were largely negative and, after cataloging them, were entirely predictable. Seeing that I was essentially a computer program having the same thoughts over and over gave me a perspective that helped enforce a change.
CBT eventually led to mindfulness meditation and reading about Eastern philosophies like Taoism and Buddhism which I also combed over and picked what worked for me.
posted by jnnla at 10:12 AM on September 27, 2015 [5 favorites]
I think that regardless of which comes first, thought or feeling, CBT can help by encouraging you to be mindful in both cases. 1) recognizing warped thoughts can help to weed out those thoughts that aren't necessarily helpful 2) learning that when you do have a thought in reaction to a feeling there is a moment where you can endeavor to recognize that this particular thought is a reaction to this particular feeling and that you don't have to allow that thought to sweep you up. You can just sort of watch that thought and say "that is what popped into my mind after that feeling, but I don't necessarily have to believe it." Do this enough and you become the Observer of your thoughtstream and can get better at which thoughts you allow yourself to identify with while letting others slip though.
More to your question, however, there were certainly things in CBT that I found didn't ring true - but like anything you don't need to fully subscribe to an ideology in order for it to benefit you. I simply took away the things that worked for me and ignored things that didn't. What worked for me in CBT was the "recognizing warped thoughts" aspect of it as well as cataloging and observing my default reactions to things - which were largely negative and, after cataloging them, were entirely predictable. Seeing that I was essentially a computer program having the same thoughts over and over gave me a perspective that helped enforce a change.
CBT eventually led to mindfulness meditation and reading about Eastern philosophies like Taoism and Buddhism which I also combed over and picked what worked for me.
posted by jnnla at 10:12 AM on September 27, 2015 [5 favorites]
A couple of recent Freakonomics episodes dealt with group therapy based on CBT. Might be a different perspective:
http://freakonomics.com/2015/09/10/preventing-crime-for-pennies-on-the-dollar/
http://freakonomics.com/2015/09/17/i-dont-know-what-youve-done-with-my-husband-but-hes-a-changed-man-a-new-freakonomics-radio-episode/
posted by randomkeystrike at 10:46 AM on September 27, 2015 [1 favorite]
http://freakonomics.com/2015/09/10/preventing-crime-for-pennies-on-the-dollar/
http://freakonomics.com/2015/09/17/i-dont-know-what-youve-done-with-my-husband-but-hes-a-changed-man-a-new-freakonomics-radio-episode/
posted by randomkeystrike at 10:46 AM on September 27, 2015 [1 favorite]
Best answer: Yeah, I had a similar reaction when I first started CBT. My therapist would ask: so what is the THOUGHT that you're having here? As if the thought were the problem, and as if it already existed in sentence form.
So I did a fair amount of intellectually disparaging my therapist alongside this perceived principle of CBT -- but mostly I did it quietly, in my own head. Partly due to some weird chivalrous embarrassment -- I'd been highly trained in bullying and crushing other people's intellectual frameworks -- and partly due to bully-and-crush's spectacular failure as a strategy for dealing with my own thoughts and emotions. I knew symbolic practices could function well even if their practitioners couldn't explain exactly how, and CBT really was teaching me excellent practical ways to function, as outlined above by jnnia, weston, cotton dress sock, et al.
As thetortoise, jnnia, et al. report, results improved further when CBT was combined with mindfulness training, as in ACT, DBT, Buddhism, etc. (In Buddhist ethnopsychology, emotion = thought + bodily sensation.)
posted by feral_goldfish at 11:03 AM on September 27, 2015 [4 favorites]
So I did a fair amount of intellectually disparaging my therapist alongside this perceived principle of CBT -- but mostly I did it quietly, in my own head. Partly due to some weird chivalrous embarrassment -- I'd been highly trained in bullying and crushing other people's intellectual frameworks -- and partly due to bully-and-crush's spectacular failure as a strategy for dealing with my own thoughts and emotions. I knew symbolic practices could function well even if their practitioners couldn't explain exactly how, and CBT really was teaching me excellent practical ways to function, as outlined above by jnnia, weston, cotton dress sock, et al.
As thetortoise, jnnia, et al. report, results improved further when CBT was combined with mindfulness training, as in ACT, DBT, Buddhism, etc. (In Buddhist ethnopsychology, emotion = thought + bodily sensation.)
posted by feral_goldfish at 11:03 AM on September 27, 2015 [4 favorites]
Best answer: I've had great luck with CBT but I find that the techniques devolve for me after a few years without ongoing therapy. Also, I can get almost obsessive about the techniques themselves, using them almost as security blankets rather than core solutions.
I'm in therapy now with a doctor trained in ISTDP (Intensive short-term dynamic psychotherapy) which does focus on feelings and accepting and dealing with feelings first, since those are what cause anxiety and obsessive thought processes. Wikipedia has an overview of ISTDP vs. CBT.
I'm also a person who is much more comfortable with logic, thoughts, cognition and not comfortable at all with emotions, so this type of therapy has prompted me to experience emotions I've been ignoring for a long time, such as fear and anger.
We still integrate some techniques of CBT - but more as measures to deal with specific situations. The work we do with feelings comes across as a much more core, sustainable, long-term solution.
I find this approach rings true for me A LOT and this is by far the most effective therapy I've had. I have social anxiety and CBT would help with making things feel tolerable, but ISTDP, so far, is making social - and other - experiences enjoyable for one of the first times in my life.
If CBT doesn't "ring true" for you, you may want to explore or find someone with experience in ISTDP. The book Living Like You Mean It might be good to check out to see if you respond to the concepts in there.
posted by Uncle Glendinning at 1:16 PM on September 27, 2015 [4 favorites]
I'm in therapy now with a doctor trained in ISTDP (Intensive short-term dynamic psychotherapy) which does focus on feelings and accepting and dealing with feelings first, since those are what cause anxiety and obsessive thought processes. Wikipedia has an overview of ISTDP vs. CBT.
I'm also a person who is much more comfortable with logic, thoughts, cognition and not comfortable at all with emotions, so this type of therapy has prompted me to experience emotions I've been ignoring for a long time, such as fear and anger.
We still integrate some techniques of CBT - but more as measures to deal with specific situations. The work we do with feelings comes across as a much more core, sustainable, long-term solution.
I find this approach rings true for me A LOT and this is by far the most effective therapy I've had. I have social anxiety and CBT would help with making things feel tolerable, but ISTDP, so far, is making social - and other - experiences enjoyable for one of the first times in my life.
If CBT doesn't "ring true" for you, you may want to explore or find someone with experience in ISTDP. The book Living Like You Mean It might be good to check out to see if you respond to the concepts in there.
posted by Uncle Glendinning at 1:16 PM on September 27, 2015 [4 favorites]
Response by poster: Thanks, everyone. I think everyone really focused in on the question I had and I do agree that I misunderstood the intent. This multi-sourced influence makes more intuitive sense to me, that's for sure.
posted by tcv at 2:29 PM on September 27, 2015
posted by tcv at 2:29 PM on September 27, 2015
I think a lot of CBT materials do present the theory in the way you first understood; it seems a common misinterpretation. I think people (clients and practitioners) can get wrapped up in the thinking part and end up being too dismissive of emotions, as Uncle Glendinning pointed out.
posted by jaguar at 5:50 PM on September 27, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by jaguar at 5:50 PM on September 27, 2015 [1 favorite]
Hahaha, yeah, all my experiences with CBT have been horrible. I JUST. DON'T. GET. IT. It literally makes no sense to me, to the point of where I think people who practice it must be either lying to my face or lying to themselves. I think I must have a different understanding of emotions than the rest of the world, because for the life of me I don't think I've ever had negative emotions as a result of "negative self-talk" whatever the fuck that's supposed to be. I'm sad because I miss someone. I've tried over ten therapists, five psychiatrists, books, and online exercises, in over twenty years of trying to get help. It still makes no sense. Then they tell me I'm not trying, and I don't even know how you're supposed to try something like that--I can't "try" any more than I could try to change the color of my eyes. It's like they're asking me to believe in god when I don't.
Anyway, you may be interested to learn that Martin Seligman, one of the proponents of CBT spent most of his life torturing dogs and may be linked to torturing people.
posted by Violet Hour at 9:02 PM on September 27, 2015 [1 favorite]
Anyway, you may be interested to learn that Martin Seligman, one of the proponents of CBT spent most of his life torturing dogs and may be linked to torturing people.
posted by Violet Hour at 9:02 PM on September 27, 2015 [1 favorite]
FWIW, I did a partial hospital program once that was pretty much all CBT, and the basic principle as explained to us was that thoughts, feelings, and behaviors all feed into each other, so you could, in theory, influence your feelings via thoughts or via your behavior, you could influence thoughts by your feelings or behavior, etc, etc.
For example, one of their maxims was "Action proceeds motivation," which is a good example of behavior influencing emotions. With that being said, I think the focus is often centered on influence your emotions by changing your thinking.
posted by litera scripta manet at 10:04 PM on September 27, 2015
For example, one of their maxims was "Action proceeds motivation," which is a good example of behavior influencing emotions. With that being said, I think the focus is often centered on influence your emotions by changing your thinking.
posted by litera scripta manet at 10:04 PM on September 27, 2015
I'm a layman who likes to speculate, and I'm curious about whether CBT's benefits might partly come from a general strengthening of metacognitive ability... along with also familiarizing oneself with a mind state that can observe thoughts in a calm and helpful way.
That kind of mental shifting also resonates with practices from Buddhism that many people find therapeutic, and might be a general way to think about the benefits of CBT, ACT, mindfulness, and so on. It's a way of "relocating" yourself to a safe and clear "position" in your "head space."
In sitting meditation, I've noticed the importance of changing my "voice" or "stance" or "basis." I can't quite find the right word for it.
Some people talk about thoughts being clouds in a clear sky... the sky then might be the more basic tenor of your mind, which is indeed prior to thought, and mostly we tend to ignore that background.
CBT, it seems to me, requires the patient to take a more "sky-like" perspective: as long as she is "inhabiting" thoughts, she can't see them clearly. So she is instructed to step back and consider those thoughts in a patient way. My hypothesis is that that step back, and that patience, might be generally helpful—even if it's not the case that your anxiety is clearly caused by specific thoughts.
Even more speculatively, it's fascinating to think about this in connection with "religious" experiences and feelings. People talk about a "presence" of love, peace, clarity, and so on... sometimes about being enveloped in this presence... William James, the pioneer psychologist and philosopher, was very interested in these "varieties of religious experience"... it seems possible to view them as different perceptions of the "background awareness" as being a benevolent force. YMMV!
Either way, reflection is empowering. Noticing that one's mind has the capacity to view its own stuff in a patient and benevolent way seems like it should be fundamentally healthy. There's a Buddhist teacher who often referred to "basic sanity" as being the real object of the religion. I like that.
posted by mbrock at 3:10 AM on September 28, 2015 [1 favorite]
That kind of mental shifting also resonates with practices from Buddhism that many people find therapeutic, and might be a general way to think about the benefits of CBT, ACT, mindfulness, and so on. It's a way of "relocating" yourself to a safe and clear "position" in your "head space."
In sitting meditation, I've noticed the importance of changing my "voice" or "stance" or "basis." I can't quite find the right word for it.
Some people talk about thoughts being clouds in a clear sky... the sky then might be the more basic tenor of your mind, which is indeed prior to thought, and mostly we tend to ignore that background.
CBT, it seems to me, requires the patient to take a more "sky-like" perspective: as long as she is "inhabiting" thoughts, she can't see them clearly. So she is instructed to step back and consider those thoughts in a patient way. My hypothesis is that that step back, and that patience, might be generally helpful—even if it's not the case that your anxiety is clearly caused by specific thoughts.
Even more speculatively, it's fascinating to think about this in connection with "religious" experiences and feelings. People talk about a "presence" of love, peace, clarity, and so on... sometimes about being enveloped in this presence... William James, the pioneer psychologist and philosopher, was very interested in these "varieties of religious experience"... it seems possible to view them as different perceptions of the "background awareness" as being a benevolent force. YMMV!
Either way, reflection is empowering. Noticing that one's mind has the capacity to view its own stuff in a patient and benevolent way seems like it should be fundamentally healthy. There's a Buddhist teacher who often referred to "basic sanity" as being the real object of the religion. I like that.
posted by mbrock at 3:10 AM on September 28, 2015 [1 favorite]
This thread is closed to new comments.
So the focus of the work is on changing thoughts in order to change feelings, but the theoretical assumption is not that thoughts always precede feelings -- it's more a practical acknowledgment that focusing on thoughts as an influencing force is a helpful thing to do.
posted by jaguar at 8:15 AM on September 27, 2015 [22 favorites]