Don't ask, don't tell, please

December 6, 2005 1:30 PM

I believe my dad is gay (but still in the closet); I'm curious about how other families/children handle this situation.

My parents married many years ago; I am their only child. Their marriage "broke" when I was about 6; they didn't divorce until I was in college. Mom and Dad are still extremely close.

We are an eccentic, intellectual, and extremely private family. Emotionally close, but fiercely protective of our own secrets, and each others'. My father is the most guarded of us all; he has never tried to "come out" to us, and I don't believe he wants to, even though Mom & I are about the most open-minded, liberal, tolerant people in the world. She and I know my father's "friend," and have tacitly understood (at least we think we understand) the true nature of their relationship for years.

I'm grown now, and I have no problem with my father's sexuality. The secrecy (and uncertainty) is a bit unnerving, but I respect his right to privacy and to conduct his life as he prefers. I talked about the whole issue with a therapist several years ago, and hardly think about it anymore.

My only area of difficulty lies with other people, specifically my in-laws. They've asked me often whether my father is dating anyone, and my breezy, "I don't know, we don't talk about it" answers have led them straight to the closet door. Recently my MIL asked my husband, "Does anon's Mom or Dad have a new boyfriend?" I know this shouldn't bother me, but the protective child inside just wants to scream, "It's none of your fucking business, bitch!" I'm not ashamed of who my dad is; in fact, it'd almost be easier if he were a rainbow-flag waving leather daddy. But I feel duty-bound to maintain his veil of secrecy, especially to judgemental people like my in-laws, and even if they see right through it.

I'd appreciate hearing about any experiences you've had with similar situations. If you don't want to post here, you can email me at [e-mail].

posted by anonymous to human relations (20 comments total)

I just want to say that that's a great gmail address.
posted by GuyZero at 1:55 PM on December 6, 2005

Are your inlaws judgemental, or just curious (with or without the "well-meaning" part)? You are not under any more obligation to discuss your dad's dating life with them than you would be if he were dating women. I wouldn't pour very much more time and resentment into this (their questions/curiousity), though--they're family, but they didn't grow up with the "rules" about this subject area the way you and your mom did.
posted by availablelight at 2:05 PM on December 6, 2005

Would your reaction be any less antagonistic if your MIL merely asked you if your (presumably heterosexual) mom was dating a man? What if she preferred to keep her dating life private (as many people of all sexual orientations do?)

The rage you feel in reaction to perceived judgmentalism on the part of your inlaws makes me doubt your assertion that "I have no problem with my father's sexuality," especially since you are unnerved by the fact that people are keeping secrets from you.
posted by Saucy Intruder at 2:27 PM on December 6, 2005

I think a simple "for whatever reason, my father never talks about his lovelife with me and I respect that decision enough not to talk about his lovelife with others" would do the trick well. Any follow-up can get a smiling "I'm really not going to talk about it." You don't owe anyone any more explanation than that and in fact that's the actual extent of your reasoning, from what I glean. I know it's not far from what you have said in the past - which has been ignored - but perhaps making it clear that there's an obvious and deliberate silence on this matter will get through to them.

If it doesn't, well, I don't know your relationship with your in-laws but I think you're in the right to insist that they respect your positions on things, particularly ones that amount up to gossiping about your dad. You can always tell them "I can't stop you from gossiping about my father when I am not around but I am going to insist you not do it in front of me." And walk away from situations where they won't. It's confrontational but if you can't get through to someone with a simple "this is important to me" I don't know what else there is to do.

My younger brother never discussed his sexuality with us, though I can't really say he spent any time in the closet. He just never said anything about his preference until we figured it out on our own around when he was 20 or so. I'm of two minds on the matter. I never felt any pressure to come out as straight to my parents, why should he have to explain anything to us? On the other hand, it's a big part of who he is and knowing that about him is necessary to actually know him for who he is in any complete manner. If there had been some accident and he had died before we put the pieces together and moved towards an open understanding about his sexuality I think I would have felt bad, like I had been a bad sibling. So on that side I wish he'd said something rather than leaving us to our own devices.

My situation was somewhat different from yours but I think I can sympathize with some of your low-grade frustration. I'm not sure what I'd do in your shoes, though I think at some point I'd have a private conversation with any family member who seemed to have such a big part of themselves in shadow, primarily for the reason I mentioned above. My family is similarly restrained and there were probably entire years where my brother and I didn't discuss who we'd been dating or how it was going, etc, but we never had to guard our pronoun use. If if we asked each other "Seeing anyone lately?" I could ask him "You like him?" Maybe that matters to you, maybe it doesn't.

Who knows how your father would react, though. I had a friend who grew up in a two bedroom house, herself in one room, her mother and another woman in the other. I'd met her through her mother, in fact, who was my boss's boss, and it was an open secret that Mama X was gay, though nobody ever seemed to care within my earshot. I never discussed it with Daughter X since it was something I had taken for granted long before I met her. One day Daughter X and I were on the phone and she commented about someone she knew asking her if her mom was gay, could I believe that? I was somewhat nonplussed and ended up saying "I'm rather surprised they even felt the need to ask."

The conversation went on a bit but it amounted up to Daughter X saying no, no, Mama X isn't gay. Well, yeah, Mama X has been sharing a bed with that woman for about 12 years but that's was just an amount-of-space thing. Well, a queen bed is just more space efficient than two twins. Well, no, she's never dated anyone to Daughter X's knowledge since she and Papa X split but that doesn't mean anything. No, we didn't move out from Papa X's house straight there; we lived with some other woman for a bit. Well no, I ASKED Mama X if she would tell me if she was gay and she said of course and no she's not.

The point of this story (aside from my vague amusement when I retell it) is that there may be people in the generations older than us who have an outlook that no matter how obvious it is, it cannot be spoken of or must be denied. Perhaps your father is in the same camp and will never talk about this with you. Perhaps he just needs you to ask. You should prepare yourself for the possibility that he's going to refuse to discuss it with you but that it has nothing to do with you, however.
posted by phearlez at 2:33 PM on December 6, 2005

By coincidence, I heard the author of Families Like Mine on the Al Franken show just a few hours ago. She was a great speaker and it sounds like a great book for someone in your situation.
posted by AmbroseChapel at 2:34 PM on December 6, 2005

A friend of mine in high school discovered the reason his father and mother divorced was that the father was gay. He asked him about his father's relationships, but the father didn't really want to talk about it, even though my friend thought he might be gay as well....

With your inlaws it seems they're very straightforward and a bit tactless. I would answer in kind, "I already told you I don't know. My father's life is his business. I don't like talking about it." I realize you've already said it, but they probably need to have it repeated like a gazillion times to sink in.
posted by xammerboy at 2:37 PM on December 6, 2005

Oh, and if you don't find anyone else to discuss this with and want to chat more, by all means feel free to email me from your gmail account. I concur with GuyZero, quite witty.

I do not concur with SI - If I had told someone repeatedly "gosh I don't know" in such a way as to make it clear it wasn't going to be discussed and they later asked my significant other a leading question about it I'd be ticked too, regardless of whether it was me or someone else keeping the secret. It's prying and impolite independent of any transference issues. However it does probably mean you're going to have to move up from breezy answers to overt statements that the topic is off limits.
posted by phearlez at 2:39 PM on December 6, 2005

I've been through this with members of my family. I don't have a clear strategy. I have a close relative who is completely silent about what is going on in her personal life. I have no problem with that. I have another close relative who firmly believes that all secrets are categorically A Bad Thing within families. I understand that certain family secrets can be destructive, but there is a big difference between information that is a secret and thus possibly destructive and information that is simply private.

I cannot help but conclude that some people will use being "well-meaning" "caring" and/or "interested in how people are doing" to be nosy, intrusive gossips.

In certain situations, however, I've been able to fix Nosy Intruder with a cold stare and say (honestly) " You know, I really am not interested in that aspect of [relative's] personal life. I don't know, and I'm not going to ask."

It's easier to do that in the context of one family unit, however. Adding the in-law factor to the equation might require a more delicate touch.
posted by ambrosia at 2:40 PM on December 6, 2005

For whatever reason, I find the less of a deal is made too the better, for any issue if you want people to stop talking about it. Like, "look, it doesn't matter to me, but my Dad prefers not to talk about it and I respect that. Part of respecting it, for me, means not questioning it. I don't have anything else to say about this, so please don't ask me any more questions."
posted by xammerboy at 2:46 PM on December 6, 2005

First the preface: I had been dating this one girl for about three weeks when she mentioned over a restaurant brunch that her father was gay. My mind took half a second to process this and I then I said "Well, you said that he really liked antiques."

But it did take a little bit to get my head around-- as much as I don't care about anyone's sexual preference, it's weird because someone's dad isn't supposed to be gay. Gay guys are are the slightly effeminate single friend of your parents or the two men with the really nice house on the corner. Definitely not the man who divorced your girlfriend's mom when your girlfriend was 22.

Anyway, I married the girl and her gay dad is now my father-in-law. And it's pretty normal. We see her dad and his partner just like you'd se any other parent who has divorced and re-coupled.

But here's what I've learned from the experience: My father-in-law grew up in a time when stigmas concerning homosexuality were HUGE (he's in his mid-50's) and despite the fact that he's out, he still struggles with the guilt that he was conditioned to have. He worried that his gayness would impact his daughter's relationships (how will she explain about her father?) and he worries that his gayness will taint peoples opinion of him. This is not just because of external (outdated for the northeast) sentiments-- it stems from attitudes that he absorbed in the 50s, 60s and 70s before he admitted that he was gay.

So, if your dad hasn't come out now, he's probably not going to. If you love your dad (and it's obvious that you do) you need to toe your dad's line, refuse to discuss it and refuse to give any fuel to gossip or discussions that are not your in-laws business and would hurt your dad if knew of them. Would you be comfortable telling them the truth-- you don't know what your dad's situation is, and you won't know unless he elects to discuss it because otherwise it's nobody's business but his?
posted by Mayor Curley at 3:06 PM on December 6, 2005

If my Dad was gay, and my MIL made multiple pointless inquiries into his romantic life, I'd be inclined to rip her pelvic cavity out through her ass. Precisely because I do love and respect my father so much and would want to protect his privacy as anon seems to imply.

I think it may be hard to resist the temptation to tell someone you love that their sexual identity need not be an issue, and yet from what anon has said it seems Dad already can tell his family is OK with his sexuality. Perhaps it's his need for privacy in all things that makes the thought of further discussion seem unnecessary.

And on preview, what Mayor C. done said.
posted by docpops at 3:07 PM on December 6, 2005

This must be a tough situation for you, and I agree completely with the first half of phearlez's advice -- say that you respect your father, and he's not willing to discuss his love life with you, so you won't gossip about it with others; and if they don't get the message, walk away until they do.

However, I have to caution against some other beliefs. Assuming that so-and-so is LGBTQXYZ probably isn't the best plan. Sure, it may be true, but there's always that other possibility. I know perhaps too much about this: My younger brother has decided I'm a lesbian (and I'm afraid my mother's starting to think so too). I'm not. My family's just very private with their love lives in general, and I'm certainly not up for discussing my sex life with my parents or brother. I guess I can kind of see how they'd get the wrong impression (I, uh...wear sweatshirts?), but they're wrong, and because they've never said anything too blatant to me, I can't exactly start a conversation with "By the way, I like guys." This advice isn't so much for anonymous -- if your dad's got a partner you know about, it must be pretty obvious -- as it is for some of the other commenters.
posted by booksandlibretti at 3:16 PM on December 6, 2005

Lots of good advice here, I don't have much to add. Except "wow, your family is cool". I know a fair number of closeted fathers, and it's almost always rooted in shame and fear about what the family would say. It's clear that your dad would have no problem with you, and it sounds from what you've said that your dad is doing fine by himself.

The fact that you know his "friend" speaks volumes. Maybe you can make a more active role in including him? Invite them to dinner, or when you call your dad ask about how the friend is doing. Act like he's part of the family and include him. Hopefuly that'll encourage your father to be more open with you, but at least it should make folks more comfortable.

As for the pushy in-laws, fuck 'em.
posted by Nelson at 3:47 PM on December 6, 2005

MY aunt is gay and has had the same partner for, oh, 40 years and has never once discussed it to the point that my Mom just figured it out last year. I'd never bring it up or confront her about it- she's a very private person and it's her decision and I respect that.
posted by fshgrl at 4:50 PM on December 6, 2005

My dad thinks he's in the closet, has had the same boyfriend for like ten years now (I call them "my two dads" behind their backs), they own a house together, etc. Literally everyone in the family knows, no one has a problem with it, everyone accepts the BF, but Dad has never "come out" as such -- it's always "my friend Pat".

The difference between my situation and yours is, if anything, that no one in my family thinks we need to preserve other peoples' "secrets" when their behavior is so obvious that any reasonable person would clearly be able to deduce what is going on. Obviously -- aside from their unreasonable persistence in asking about it -- your in-laws are reasonable enough to make this deduction. They are being rude by continuing to poke at this thing that makes you uncomfortable, but evidently they're feeding on your discomfort/evasiveness/caginess.

This is the understanding I've come to in my dad's case, and some of which I think could be helpful to you. People rarely come out as straight, and parents don't usually talk about their sex lives with their children. When my dad was dating women he didn't say "Wendy is my girlfriend, and I have vaginal intercourse with her." He said they were friends, they spent a lot of time together, slept in the same room, and we got the idea. This is pretty much the same thing he says about Pat: they're friends. They have generally slept in the same room, a little less at the beginning, but consistently now, even at the house of my grandfather, who is relatively conservative, but in the know, and fine with it.

Pat's daughter even at one point asked My Two Dads to tell her what the deal is, saying that no one had a problem with it, but that she just wanted to hear something from them. Not a lot came of this noble effort.

My dad has always been a little uncomfortable with himself, I think, always sort of second-guessing himself as a father, often trying to "check in" in weird ways that were ultimately alienating to us. I think he knows that we get the idea, and feels that he doesn't need to make it explicit, maybe because a straight person would never be asked to make it explicit. And is a little freaked out about having the conversation, even though his kids are clearly the most queer-friendly family anyone has ever seen. My oldest sister thinks that one factor is that both my dad and Pat are latino, and that gayness is particularly taboo in their culture; I don't really buy this and think it has more to do with my dad's other weirdness.

Anyway, my own approach to my dad's sexuality has always been an unashamed openness, with everyone I meet, from strangers to SO-parents or anyone else. Early on I was probably trying to compensate for my dad's wall of silence on the matter. Now I'm just so used to it that the whole situation seems natural to me: My Dad Thinks He's In The Closet; My Dad's Boyfriend Says Blah Blah Blah. So clearly if I were in your situation and my in-laws were asking these questions, I'd say, "well, any reasonable person can deduce what is going on, but you have essentially the same body as evidence as I do. We don't talk about it, but I like BF and I'm glad he's in my dad's life."

How are the in-laws judgmental, beyond being nosy? Would/do they have pseudomoralistic objections to a gay dad? I think people who aren't in the habit of hiding Dark Secrets don't really understand people who are in that habit. Your inlaws may be trying to figure out the extent to which you're in denial, or don't trust them. Or are somehow more or less sophisticated than them -- they may be smug over having got your dad's number, and want to show off.

Also, you say: I'm not ashamed of who my dad is; in fact, it'd almost be easier if he were a rainbow-flag waving leather daddy. In my case, it would certainly be easier, and more fun, and more honest: I would completely prefer this to the spectre of shame and mistrust. I mean, I guess you're saying that that caricature would be unsuited to your intellectual father. But I'm a little inclined to wonder whether your protectiveness and secrecy w/r/t your inlaws betrays a little lingering discomfort with the fact that your dad is gay. Not accusing, just wondering. And clearly I'm almost pathologically open, ostentatiously comfortable, and obsessively unsecretive, so I'm not in any position to judge. :)

Feel free to email me at the address in my profile, since so far it looks like I'm the first person with an actual Gay Dad.
posted by xueexueg at 6:06 PM on December 6, 2005

"Does anon's Mom or Dad have a new boyfriend?"

"I'm not sure. Do you?"
posted by koeselitz at 6:45 PM on December 6, 2005

I ran into my first obviously-gay-yet-it's-not-discussed guy this weekend. He was with a bunch of old friends. I'm so accustomed to being around gay men that I made some sort of casual comment that assumed his gayness and it turned out to be a HUGE faux pas. Turned out later that the issue is never ever discussed among them and I had badly embarrassed him and them. Not helpful, except I had never encountered the we-just-don't-talk-about-it type before and they may be more common than one thinks.
Ultimately, it really isn't any of our business I guess - certainly not the inlaws'.
posted by CunningLinguist at 7:20 PM on December 6, 2005

Mayor Curley made a lot of sense to me until that last paragraph - that's the opposite conclusion from what I'd have drawn. You point out how uncomfortable and taboo being gay was as he was growing up, how ingrained that guilt is, how afraid he's always been to reveal himself, etc - and then you say, so, since he's used to it, make sure to keep the closet closed! I don't see the logic there.

If everyone knows but no one talks about it, the onus is all on the individual to make this big dramatic statement about their sex life. But if you really are open & accepting about it, you can sort of let the closet door open in a more natural way. Part of the issue is that the longer one keeps a secret, the bigger a deal it is to talk about, because then you have to (at least implicitly) admit you've been hiding it all that time. Anyway, I like xueegxueg's advice, although I may also be a pathologically open person. I guess I just don't get why that "veil of secrecy" is something beneficial rather than just something your father got stuck with.
posted by mdn at 7:21 AM on December 7, 2005

I have a couple of thoughts here. To quote Sars:

Ann Landers, Abby, and Miss Manners all advocate the following: 1. Furrow brow solicitously. 2. Ask in a pleasant tone, "Why do you want to know?" 3. Watch the random fucko squirm. 4. If random fucko comes back with "just curious" or something of that ilk, again ask, "But why?" 5. Lather, rinse, repeat.

Enlist your spouse to do this as well (and really, he should have headed this off at the pass by making it clear to his own family that it's a private issue).

The other option, depending on your relationship with your father, would be to casually say to him: "Boy dad, I'm so frustrated with how nosey people are these days. They're always asking about my/your personal life. How do you deal with that?" Not only might he have a good idea for you, but you know that you'd be responding in the way he'd want you to.
posted by CiaoMela at 8:05 AM on December 7, 2005

"Boy dad, I'm so frustrated with how nosey people are these days. They're always asking about my/your personal life. How do you deal with that?"

Sounds like a good approach.
posted by raedyn at 9:04 AM on December 7, 2005