What is the pronouncing difference between /æ/ and /e/ in US English?
September 1, 2015 5:09 PM Subscribe
The question is about the pronunciation of /æ/ and /e/, such as in Brad and bread, expansive and expensive, man and men, bad and bed, pat and pet, flash and flesh, sad and said, had and head, etc.
I asked local Americans about the differences, listened to Youtube (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CNL5BmWQGiI) videos for the difference, but I still did not quite get it. It is understandable that dialects would lead to difference as well; so in British English pronunciation, I probably caught the difference; but in the Mid-western dialects, e.g., Minnesota, these two sounds are so similar that I can never succeed in distinguishing them without a context.
So the question is to ask:
1. What is the difference between /æ/ and /e/ in your US dialects?
2. What is the difference between /æ/ and /e/ in Mid-western dialects?
An answer with a video or audio information would be very helpful I guess.
The IDEA dialects archive may also be useful: here's a sample of Californian speech with added analysis.
posted by maudlin at 5:23 PM on September 1, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by maudlin at 5:23 PM on September 1, 2015 [1 favorite]
The video you linked isn't great -- even to my native ear, her pronunciations sound too similar. Try this one and this one.
posted by Rhaomi at 5:36 PM on September 1, 2015
posted by Rhaomi at 5:36 PM on September 1, 2015
Response by poster: Maudlin, these two tools are too complicated for me to understand. Thanks.
posted by caladesi at 5:36 PM on September 1, 2015
posted by caladesi at 5:36 PM on September 1, 2015
Response by poster: Rhaomi, the difference in your last video sounds so noticeably different. Do you by chance know what dialect is that video based on? The pronunciation in the video is obviously different from MN dialect. Thanks.
posted by caladesi at 5:40 PM on September 1, 2015
posted by caladesi at 5:40 PM on September 1, 2015
For Minnesota and other cities around the Great Lakes, you're looking at the Northern Cities Vowel Shift. /ae/ raises to /ɛə/ or even /ɪə/; in response, in some dialects, /ɛ/ is backing and lowering to /ɐ/. Some good examples of a really advanced variety here and more explanation of what's going on here.
posted by damayanti at 5:40 PM on September 1, 2015 [4 favorites]
posted by damayanti at 5:40 PM on September 1, 2015 [4 favorites]
This has something to do with the Northern Cities Vowel Shift.
posted by Small Dollar at 5:40 PM on September 1, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by Small Dollar at 5:40 PM on September 1, 2015 [1 favorite]
The physical shape of the vowel is different. For the first words, my lips move vertically. For the second, my lips move horizontally, like a closed mouth smile movement, but obviously not closed mouth.
posted by Ruki at 5:41 PM on September 1, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by Ruki at 5:41 PM on September 1, 2015 [1 favorite]
I was also going to point to the speech accent archive; the ones from places I know are very typical sounding, including the Midwestern US ones (I lived in Wisconsin for a few years.) The one thing I'd mention when I think of your word list with the Northern-Midwestern accent in my head, is that many of the ae's lean more towards the vowel sound in bay, at least in my NE US accent, and the e's are closer to my ae's. Like their jaw and tongue never go as low as the woman in the video you posted. They were the sounds most different to my ear when I moved there, and I definitely had some misunderstandings.
(Upon preview: Yes, Northern Cities Vowel Shift.)
posted by tchemgrrl at 5:42 PM on September 1, 2015
(Upon preview: Yes, Northern Cities Vowel Shift.)
posted by tchemgrrl at 5:42 PM on September 1, 2015
Response by poster: I appreciate all your guys answers. BUT, For future references, I would ask you please leave a brief note that says which dialects your answers are based on. The reason is that I've noticed a huge difference between MN dialect and British English for the pronunciation of these sounds.
posted by caladesi at 5:44 PM on September 1, 2015
posted by caladesi at 5:44 PM on September 1, 2015
> Maudlin, these two tools are too complicated for me to understand. Thanks.
Click this link; click a flag on the map; when the new page loads, you should see a little sound bar player thing near the top, and the text of the speech written below. Hit the play button. Everyone reads the same text, and you can listen to e.g. someone from Iowa read the same thing as someone from New Orleans, as in the links maudlin posted.
(If you don't see the little player bar, try a different browser.)
posted by rtha at 5:45 PM on September 1, 2015
Click this link; click a flag on the map; when the new page loads, you should see a little sound bar player thing near the top, and the text of the speech written below. Hit the play button. Everyone reads the same text, and you can listen to e.g. someone from Iowa read the same thing as someone from New Orleans, as in the links maudlin posted.
(If you don't see the little player bar, try a different browser.)
posted by rtha at 5:45 PM on September 1, 2015
>Do you by chance know what dialect is that video based on?
This video says she's the first US-born generation from Middle Eastern immigrants and grew up in the suburbs of New York City. I thought she sounded like the first gen Indian kids I grew up with a little farther to the northeast, so not too far off.
(This is not to say she has a middle eastern accent at all; the first-gen kids I know mostly learned English from TV and tend to have the most perfect not-from-anywhere US accent.)
posted by tchemgrrl at 5:56 PM on September 1, 2015
This video says she's the first US-born generation from Middle Eastern immigrants and grew up in the suburbs of New York City. I thought she sounded like the first gen Indian kids I grew up with a little farther to the northeast, so not too far off.
(This is not to say she has a middle eastern accent at all; the first-gen kids I know mostly learned English from TV and tend to have the most perfect not-from-anywhere US accent.)
posted by tchemgrrl at 5:56 PM on September 1, 2015
Response by poster: This post is to summarize what the answers pointed out and references provided, trying to clarify the pronouncing difference between vowels in the words “bad” and “bed.”
I speak English as a second language. BUT, the question I posted is also confusing to lots of native English speakers in US, which is the case to maudlin, Rhaomi, rtha, and Ruki. Because the differences they recognized is the difference I recognized in British English, in which I do not have problem with; had they moved to the Northern Mid-western areas, they will have the same issue as I did although they are native English speakers. As tchemgrrl pointed out, ae in Northern Mid-western sounds more like e in NE US accent. The reason for the difference between different dialects is because of vowel shifting, more specifically, Northern Cities Shift. The credits will go to damayanti and Small Dollar. A relevant story is cited as follows:
Ian of Omaha is visiting friends in Michigan, who take him to a neighborhood party. He enjoys the festivities, but something is perplexing. When he introduces himself by saying, “Hi, I’m Ian” (which he pronounces “ee-yun”), many Michiganders look confused. Some ask him why his parents gave him a woman’s name.
A more specific discussion is given in the following essay: http://www.pbs.org/speak/ahead/change/changin/
I am not yet going to select the best answer because the question is still open to solve.
posted by caladesi at 6:15 PM on September 1, 2015
I speak English as a second language. BUT, the question I posted is also confusing to lots of native English speakers in US, which is the case to maudlin, Rhaomi, rtha, and Ruki. Because the differences they recognized is the difference I recognized in British English, in which I do not have problem with; had they moved to the Northern Mid-western areas, they will have the same issue as I did although they are native English speakers. As tchemgrrl pointed out, ae in Northern Mid-western sounds more like e in NE US accent. The reason for the difference between different dialects is because of vowel shifting, more specifically, Northern Cities Shift. The credits will go to damayanti and Small Dollar. A relevant story is cited as follows:
Ian of Omaha is visiting friends in Michigan, who take him to a neighborhood party. He enjoys the festivities, but something is perplexing. When he introduces himself by saying, “Hi, I’m Ian” (which he pronounces “ee-yun”), many Michiganders look confused. Some ask him why his parents gave him a woman’s name.
A more specific discussion is given in the following essay: http://www.pbs.org/speak/ahead/change/changin/
I am not yet going to select the best answer because the question is still open to solve.
posted by caladesi at 6:15 PM on September 1, 2015
Some accents just don't have all the vowel sounds that other accents have. To the extent that speakers of that accent don't even know those other sounds exist and can't hear them. This is my experience as someone from the Northeast who moved to the mid-west. Southern and mid-western accents don't distinguish between marry/merry/Mary, pin/pen, etc. They just don't do it. For example my coworker from the South said something like "He's taking the one at the end" and I responded "The one at the inn? What inn?" You need the context to know what word they're using no matter how fluent you are.
I have personally never noticed this bad/bed man/men thing but I would put it down to the same phenomenon.
posted by bleep at 6:25 PM on September 1, 2015 [2 favorites]
I have personally never noticed this bad/bed man/men thing but I would put it down to the same phenomenon.
posted by bleep at 6:25 PM on September 1, 2015 [2 favorites]
Grew up in New York City, parents were not native New Yorkers (so minimal "New Yawk" accent), have lived all over the midwest in adulthood and sound afaik like a midwesterner.
Bread rhymes with dead, Fred and Fed. I say it with my lips closer together and held wider. My tongue is in the center of my mouth.
Brad rhymes with lad, fad, and gonad. My jaw drops more and my tongue sinks to the bottom of my mouth.
The above seem to be true in Cleveland, Ohio, where I currently live, as well as in St. Louis, Missouri and Southeastern Michigan. I spend a lot of time in Milwaukee and have no trouble understanding or making myself understood.
posted by chesty_a_arthur at 6:29 PM on September 1, 2015 [2 favorites]
Bread rhymes with dead, Fred and Fed. I say it with my lips closer together and held wider. My tongue is in the center of my mouth.
Brad rhymes with lad, fad, and gonad. My jaw drops more and my tongue sinks to the bottom of my mouth.
The above seem to be true in Cleveland, Ohio, where I currently live, as well as in St. Louis, Missouri and Southeastern Michigan. I spend a lot of time in Milwaukee and have no trouble understanding or making myself understood.
posted by chesty_a_arthur at 6:29 PM on September 1, 2015 [2 favorites]
Incidentally, the most confusing vowel slide I have ever encountered was in an old roommate from Santa Barbara, who said "beg" and "bag" identically.
posted by chesty_a_arthur at 6:30 PM on September 1, 2015
posted by chesty_a_arthur at 6:30 PM on September 1, 2015
As bleep said, "... speakers of that accent don't even know those other sounds exist and can't hear them. " See also: American insistence that Canadians say "aboot" or "aboat" instead of "about" -- y'all just can't hear our slightly tighter "ou" diphthong, which is definitely different than our "oo" or "oa" phonemes.
If you're looking at analyzing pronunciation in order to help you perceive new sounds, these tips on "ear training" may help.
posted by maudlin at 6:58 PM on September 1, 2015
If you're looking at analyzing pronunciation in order to help you perceive new sounds, these tips on "ear training" may help.
posted by maudlin at 6:58 PM on September 1, 2015
Best answer: Ian of Omaha is visiting friends in Michigan, who take him to a neighborhood party. He enjoys the festivities, but something is perplexing. When he introduces himself by saying, “Hi, I’m Ian” (which he pronounces “ee-yun”), many Michiganders look confused. Some ask him why his parents gave him a woman’s name
So, I speak rural Southern Ontario English and know plenty of people who speak the related Michigander English and I think this example is faulty. Ann and Ian don't sound the same because Ian has an unmistakable dipthong. Instead, Ann and Enn sound almost indistinguishable. The story would make a lot more sense if the character was a girl named Elle (who everyone thought was named Al).
In the end, in my dialect where these sounds are very close to one another, I would say the simplest solution is to, regardless of how your pronounce /e/, round your lips a little bit more when you want to say /æ/.
Also, as you seem to be well aware, the sounds are close enough in these dialects that you won't seem especially silly for pronouncing them the same.
posted by 256 at 8:22 PM on September 1, 2015 [3 favorites]
So, I speak rural Southern Ontario English and know plenty of people who speak the related Michigander English and I think this example is faulty. Ann and Ian don't sound the same because Ian has an unmistakable dipthong. Instead, Ann and Enn sound almost indistinguishable. The story would make a lot more sense if the character was a girl named Elle (who everyone thought was named Al).
In the end, in my dialect where these sounds are very close to one another, I would say the simplest solution is to, regardless of how your pronounce /e/, round your lips a little bit more when you want to say /æ/.
Also, as you seem to be well aware, the sounds are close enough in these dialects that you won't seem especially silly for pronouncing them the same.
posted by 256 at 8:22 PM on September 1, 2015 [3 favorites]
In terms of mouth and tongue formation, I can make both the /æ/ and the /e/ sounds with identical mouth shapes. In /æ/, the back of my tongue is higher; in /e/, the middle of my tongue comes up and the back flattens out. I was born in England, raised in Texas, have lived in the Pacific Northwest for the past 22 years, and am a professional classical singer who has done a LOT of vowel work -- so I'm not sure what, if any, dialect that stems from.
posted by KathrynT at 9:16 PM on September 1, 2015
posted by KathrynT at 9:16 PM on September 1, 2015
I agree with the previous commentators that this is a very explicit example of the Northern Cities Vowel shift. Here's a video of Penn linguist William Labov (probably the pre-eminent researcher of American dialect phonology) demonstrating some aspects this phenomenon. And, here's Labov's page specifically discussing vowel shifts and specifically /æ/ - /e/ reversal (they're not exactly swapping positions but more like they're moving in opposite directions, displacing/replacing other vowels along the chain) as a characteristic of the Northern Cities shift along with accompanying maps.
posted by mhum at 9:33 PM on September 1, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by mhum at 9:33 PM on September 1, 2015 [1 favorite]
Rhaomi's videos were spot on for "correct" pronunciation such that no native speaker who hears those things would fail to understand them. But the truth is, you'll hear and see variance even within some dialects, so even people who "hear" and understand the pronunciations in Rhaomi's picks won't actually pronounce them that way.
For example, what bleep said re: pin/pen. I am from Buffalo, NY, but I live in the south. I cannot determine whether someone with a thick southern accent is saying pin or pen, and I've lived down here almost 25 years. And often both sound more like "payin'" like they're going to pick up their payin' to write a check so they can start payin' for that payin' they just bought! Nobody here ever misunderstands me, but occasionally I'm teased for saying things "so carefully."
Conversely, with marry/merry/Mary (they all rhyme with "air" to me) my college friend from Baltimore, Maryland thought we were all punking him because none of perhaps 20 of (from the northeast, south, midwest or abroad) could hear any difference in pronunciation among those words. So, OP, be assured you would not be the only person in any circumstance not to understand something without context.
For the sounds you mention, here in the south, I often year the man/Brad/expAnsive sound pronounced as if it were almost ayyyyyyy, such that bread can sound a bit like braid, man like main, span like Spain. It sounds absolutely "wrong" to my ears and have to judge from context.
posted by The Wrong Kind of Cheese at 11:16 PM on September 1, 2015
For example, what bleep said re: pin/pen. I am from Buffalo, NY, but I live in the south. I cannot determine whether someone with a thick southern accent is saying pin or pen, and I've lived down here almost 25 years. And often both sound more like "payin'" like they're going to pick up their payin' to write a check so they can start payin' for that payin' they just bought! Nobody here ever misunderstands me, but occasionally I'm teased for saying things "so carefully."
Conversely, with marry/merry/Mary (they all rhyme with "air" to me) my college friend from Baltimore, Maryland thought we were all punking him because none of perhaps 20 of (from the northeast, south, midwest or abroad) could hear any difference in pronunciation among those words. So, OP, be assured you would not be the only person in any circumstance not to understand something without context.
For the sounds you mention, here in the south, I often year the man/Brad/expAnsive sound pronounced as if it were almost ayyyyyyy, such that bread can sound a bit like braid, man like main, span like Spain. It sounds absolutely "wrong" to my ears and have to judge from context.
posted by The Wrong Kind of Cheese at 11:16 PM on September 1, 2015
Best answer: So, I speak rural Southern Ontario English and know plenty of people who speak the related Michigander English and I think this example is faulty. Ann and Ian don't sound the same because Ian has an unmistakable dipthong. Instead, Ann and Enn sound almost indistinguishable. The story would make a lot more sense if the character was a girl named Elle (who everyone thought was named Al).
The /ae/ in "Ann" is often dipthongized (with a schwa off-glide, as I noted above) as a result of the NCVS, so it would sound like "Ian"; this mishearing is something I have heard of happening.
So, that's one thing you could focus on, OP-- the /ae/ in the midwest will have two vowel sounds in it; the /e/ will be more monopthongal (one sound), unless the speaker has a highly advanced variety.
posted by damayanti at 4:55 AM on September 2, 2015
The /ae/ in "Ann" is often dipthongized (with a schwa off-glide, as I noted above) as a result of the NCVS, so it would sound like "Ian"; this mishearing is something I have heard of happening.
So, that's one thing you could focus on, OP-- the /ae/ in the midwest will have two vowel sounds in it; the /e/ will be more monopthongal (one sound), unless the speaker has a highly advanced variety.
posted by damayanti at 4:55 AM on September 2, 2015
Native Iowan here, and chesty_a_arthur's description is spot-on for how I'd describe pronunciation. I'm not familiar with the Michigander accent, but I'd agree that any Ian who is having his name misheard as Ann is not enunciating clearly -- Ian is two syllables.
The Minneapolis/St. Paul region of Minnesota definitely shares its accent with most of Iowa/Nebraska, but the stereotypical Minnesota accent is the one heard in movies like Fargo and tends to elongate words with "ou" as "oo." Words ending in "d" or "t' will have that letter audible.
The Midwestern/"broadcaster" accent seems like it stretches out vowels compared to east coast accents.
posted by mikeh at 7:42 AM on September 2, 2015
The Minneapolis/St. Paul region of Minnesota definitely shares its accent with most of Iowa/Nebraska, but the stereotypical Minnesota accent is the one heard in movies like Fargo and tends to elongate words with "ou" as "oo." Words ending in "d" or "t' will have that letter audible.
The Midwestern/"broadcaster" accent seems like it stretches out vowels compared to east coast accents.
posted by mikeh at 7:42 AM on September 2, 2015
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Iowa
New Orleans
etc.
posted by maudlin at 5:17 PM on September 1, 2015 [3 favorites]