Replies to sexist remarks for feminist allies
July 27, 2015 10:46 PM Subscribe
My husband's co-worker is making leering, sexually suggestive remarks to him the attractiveness of their women colleagues. He is at a loss for how to tactfully reply in a way that does not spell professional suicide but also makes it clear that this is not cool.
I offered to Google up one of the many lists/videos that I've encountered that give suggested replies, but damn if I can find them now. Can you point me to some? Thanks.
I offered to Google up one of the many lists/videos that I've encountered that give suggested replies, but damn if I can find them now. Can you point me to some? Thanks.
Personally, I'd just josh back, but make it clear hubby's joking, like "Why, not getting enough action back home?"
Or maybe "why, did you had viagra with your OJ this morning?"
It's joking with a nasty undercurrent.
If the guy's oblivious, start joking about "ah, the good old days, ogling girls, without a care in the world... Too bad that's in the far past..."
posted by kschang at 11:01 PM on July 27, 2015 [4 favorites]
Or maybe "why, did you had viagra with your OJ this morning?"
It's joking with a nasty undercurrent.
If the guy's oblivious, start joking about "ah, the good old days, ogling girls, without a care in the world... Too bad that's in the far past..."
posted by kschang at 11:01 PM on July 27, 2015 [4 favorites]
I like a simple "gross" followed by withering silence.
posted by Jon Mitchell at 11:09 PM on July 27, 2015 [17 favorites]
posted by Jon Mitchell at 11:09 PM on July 27, 2015 [17 favorites]
I would answer in a neutral way: 'I'm not really paying attention to it, I focus all my energy on work', or something along those lines.
posted by eau79 at 11:12 PM on July 27, 2015 [14 favorites]
posted by eau79 at 11:12 PM on July 27, 2015 [14 favorites]
Since the OP suggests that being brusque with this guy would mean risking "professional suicide", I would just say something like, "I know you're just kidding, but to be honest it makes me uncomfortable."
posted by Ursula Hitler at 11:28 PM on July 27, 2015 [25 favorites]
posted by Ursula Hitler at 11:28 PM on July 27, 2015 [25 favorites]
Please stop that kind of talk. She's our colleague.
posted by j_curiouser at 11:32 PM on July 27, 2015 [11 favorites]
posted by j_curiouser at 11:32 PM on July 27, 2015 [11 favorites]
I like MoonOrb's idea a lot. "I like working with Emma, she's really great at ______." That way your SO isn't participating, and he demonstrates his view that Emma is a colleague, not a sex object. It sends the message that, at the very least, SO isn't going to participate in this.
I like the other ideas less, and here's why. SO is worried about professional suicide. Presumably that means that co-worker's opinions or feelings about SO matter. And, if you get much more direct or aggressive than that (including passive aggressive), it's going to be a much more blatant calling out of said co-worker. Which, you know, would probably feel really fucking good, but also would be harder for co-worker to accept. People don't really like being called out for being dicks. So what SO wants to do, I think, is send the message in a way that co-worker still has total plausible deniability about ever having been called out.
posted by J. Wilson at 11:36 PM on July 27, 2015 [10 favorites]
I like the other ideas less, and here's why. SO is worried about professional suicide. Presumably that means that co-worker's opinions or feelings about SO matter. And, if you get much more direct or aggressive than that (including passive aggressive), it's going to be a much more blatant calling out of said co-worker. Which, you know, would probably feel really fucking good, but also would be harder for co-worker to accept. People don't really like being called out for being dicks. So what SO wants to do, I think, is send the message in a way that co-worker still has total plausible deniability about ever having been called out.
posted by J. Wilson at 11:36 PM on July 27, 2015 [10 favorites]
Body language and avoiding eye contact can say volumes. If your husband averts his eyes and swivels his body slightly away when the comments happen, that may help. The old Miss Manners classic "Sorry, I don't understand?" can work, or a flat-out shift in conversation - "Whooo, Michelle's skirt is nice and short today!" "Are the TPS reports ready?"
My sympathies, though, I have some laddish colleagues who do similar stuff.
posted by Gin and Broadband at 11:36 PM on July 27, 2015 [4 favorites]
My sympathies, though, I have some laddish colleagues who do similar stuff.
posted by Gin and Broadband at 11:36 PM on July 27, 2015 [4 favorites]
You and your husband may find it helpful to check out the online resources for this Ally Skills Workshop (scroll down a bit for links to PDFs and video). Their guidance for composing replies to sexist comments is:
posted by dreamyshade at 11:38 PM on July 27, 2015 [9 favorites]
● Be short, simple, firmThey also link to a study that found "diversity-valuing behavior was negatively related only to evaluations of leaders who were nonwhite or female", which may be helpful for him to read as well.
● Humor usually backfires, avoid it
● Pick your battles
● Play for the audience
● Practice simple responses
● Don't be homophobic, transphobic, racist, classist or make fun of people for being sexually undesirable, unattractive, etc.
posted by dreamyshade at 11:38 PM on July 27, 2015 [9 favorites]
"Dude, I don't want to hear it. I'm not trying to have a sit down with HR."
He continues. "Seriously, I'm not interested in hearing it. I'm putting on my invisible ear muffs now."
And then just ignore his comments and say nothing. He will feel awkward, if he is not socially inept, and stop.
posted by AppleTurnover at 11:41 PM on July 27, 2015 [5 favorites]
He continues. "Seriously, I'm not interested in hearing it. I'm putting on my invisible ear muffs now."
And then just ignore his comments and say nothing. He will feel awkward, if he is not socially inept, and stop.
posted by AppleTurnover at 11:41 PM on July 27, 2015 [5 favorites]
I've had to do this, though I've never been in a position of risking employment or anything near it.
I went for eye-roll + air through teeth, and it was pretty obvious it worked.
I'm also liking some of the "me" statements above, vs. referring to the other person or the act.
posted by Jack Karaoke at 11:46 PM on July 27, 2015 [2 favorites]
I went for eye-roll + air through teeth, and it was pretty obvious it worked.
I'm also liking some of the "me" statements above, vs. referring to the other person or the act.
posted by Jack Karaoke at 11:46 PM on July 27, 2015 [2 favorites]
oh gosh, absolutely no joking or mean comments; fighting unprofessionalism with more unprofessionalism is very poor.
"Murgatroyd, you will get into trouble with comments like that. Someone could hear them and report you." Doesn't have to be delivered in a hostile way.
posted by smoke at 12:59 AM on July 28, 2015 [4 favorites]
"Murgatroyd, you will get into trouble with comments like that. Someone could hear them and report you." Doesn't have to be delivered in a hostile way.
posted by smoke at 12:59 AM on July 28, 2015 [4 favorites]
If he's telling your husband, he's telling every other guy he runs into.
Your husband should tell the object of his 'affections' with a "you didn't hear this from me, but..."
Watch it explode.
Repeat as necessary.
posted by sexyrobot at 2:41 AM on July 28, 2015
Your husband should tell the object of his 'affections' with a "you didn't hear this from me, but..."
Watch it explode.
Repeat as necessary.
posted by sexyrobot at 2:41 AM on July 28, 2015
Seriously, He is a Title IX or HR investigation waiting to happen...and that's a complete time suck for his stupid behavior. Anyone can complain, complaints can be made anonymously, but they have to have enough detail to get follow up. Retaliation is prohibited and often trumps tenure.
Absolutely call him out on this, it creates a soul-sucking workplace. Times change, often for the better. Carbon paper was once in routine use. We give things up because it's the right thing to do, there is a better way, and also because you don't want to hold everyone else back if you are a late joiner. Who wants to be known as a "problem" group?
posted by childofTethys at 3:03 AM on July 28, 2015 [7 favorites]
Absolutely call him out on this, it creates a soul-sucking workplace. Times change, often for the better. Carbon paper was once in routine use. We give things up because it's the right thing to do, there is a better way, and also because you don't want to hold everyone else back if you are a late joiner. Who wants to be known as a "problem" group?
posted by childofTethys at 3:03 AM on July 28, 2015 [7 favorites]
"Unless you're happy to repeat everything you've said to HR, I would keep those thoughts to yourself."
The reality is that silence will have the same effect. He's probing, looking for people of the same 'ilk'. Any cold shoulder-esque response will likely suffice to indicate that he and your husband are not on the same wavelength.
The strictly appropriate course is to discuss the matter with HR, since it covers your husband's ass if: a) there is a history of inappropriate behaviour with this guy that comes out in an inquiry (e.g. following a sexual harrassment complaint); and/or b) your husband's response is misconstrued in any way as harrassment (i.e. if his behaviour is derogatory or exclusionary).
posted by kisch mokusch at 3:06 AM on July 28, 2015 [10 favorites]
The reality is that silence will have the same effect. He's probing, looking for people of the same 'ilk'. Any cold shoulder-esque response will likely suffice to indicate that he and your husband are not on the same wavelength.
The strictly appropriate course is to discuss the matter with HR, since it covers your husband's ass if: a) there is a history of inappropriate behaviour with this guy that comes out in an inquiry (e.g. following a sexual harrassment complaint); and/or b) your husband's response is misconstrued in any way as harrassment (i.e. if his behaviour is derogatory or exclusionary).
posted by kisch mokusch at 3:06 AM on July 28, 2015 [10 favorites]
When there is an investigation, he will cite chapter & verse on the also-rans, meaning your spouse needs to not give the impression that s/he shares the humor.
Better to stick with cut-it-out, there's more than enough work to do without an investigation layered on top. Stopping the behavior reduces the risk of investigation. And that's before we get to outcomes.
posted by childofTethys at 3:13 AM on July 28, 2015 [8 favorites]
Better to stick with cut-it-out, there's more than enough work to do without an investigation layered on top. Stopping the behavior reduces the risk of investigation. And that's before we get to outcomes.
posted by childofTethys at 3:13 AM on July 28, 2015 [8 favorites]
Yeah, I'd probably just give any comment the Narrowed Eyes of Doom, followed by the Awkward Silence of Disapproval, then change the topic completely.
posted by chainsofreedom at 3:47 AM on July 28, 2015 [8 favorites]
posted by chainsofreedom at 3:47 AM on July 28, 2015 [8 favorites]
"Not cool" is usually all you need in this sort of situation. Or "Not cool; this is a professional environment."
posted by Metroid Baby at 4:23 AM on July 28, 2015 [12 favorites]
posted by Metroid Baby at 4:23 AM on July 28, 2015 [12 favorites]
"You mean our colleague? I do not want to hear it..."
"No, I mean, I do not want to hear it. I am not going to listen."
[leave the room if necessary]
(Partner works with one of these. I disagree with any advice to make jokes; I think he wants to firmly, but not rudely, stick to: I am at work, I am not having that conversation, etc.)
He should NOT gossip about it to the women in question! Good grief, what an awful idea. If things are getting out of hand, HR wants to be involved.
posted by kmennie at 5:04 AM on July 28, 2015 [3 favorites]
"No, I mean, I do not want to hear it. I am not going to listen."
[leave the room if necessary]
(Partner works with one of these. I disagree with any advice to make jokes; I think he wants to firmly, but not rudely, stick to: I am at work, I am not having that conversation, etc.)
He should NOT gossip about it to the women in question! Good grief, what an awful idea. If things are getting out of hand, HR wants to be involved.
posted by kmennie at 5:04 AM on July 28, 2015 [3 favorites]
"Dude, you're like a walking talking HR problem. Are you trying to drag me down with you?"
posted by the agents of KAOS at 5:09 AM on July 28, 2015 [4 favorites]
posted by the agents of KAOS at 5:09 AM on July 28, 2015 [4 favorites]
This is why HR repeats those sexual harassment trainings every year or two. Because people have not yet internalized the news that it counts as sexual harassment whether it's man-on-woman, superior-on-inferior, or woman-on-woman, inferior-on-superior, equalstatus-on-equalstatus--WHATEVER: if it's anything nonprofessional nonworkrelated that targets somebody sexually and makes for a hostile work environment, it's sexual harassment. Your husband is getting the brunt of it--he's the target. So he should not try to handle it. He definitely should not go, "dudebrah, we have to keep quiet about this stuff have you not learned" because it implies he like the harasser thinks the rules are dumb. In fact the rules are not dumb. Look how much of everybody's time and energy this dickhead is wasting with his dickheadery. Apply the rules, which are good, to the situation. Your husband should report the dickheadery to the dickhead's supervisor--who with luck took the stupid sexual harassment course recently, in fact it might be a good idea to refresh first in case the it's been a while for the supervisor because it is SO EASY to slip back into comfortable MadMen territory--and get it off his desk/chest because it is not his problem to solve. I'm sorry he's having to deal with this crap: it's a nightmare.
posted by Don Pepino at 5:18 AM on July 28, 2015 [10 favorites]
posted by Don Pepino at 5:18 AM on July 28, 2015 [10 favorites]
I found myself in a similar situation, where a man 'above me' in the academic pecking order was acting in a disrespectful manner towards a woman - who incidentally one might consider 'lower' than use both on the academic pecking order.
He acted this way partly in an older-man-being-flirty-with-a-younger-woman (playful but misguided) kind of way, but by doing it in my company he also gestured to me as an accomplice of sorts. Anyway. The woman was obviously uncomfortable, I could see that. I tried in the situation to not respond to his gestures to my complicity. I tried to disagree with him and steer the conversation elsewhere. But I basically failed to stop the situation from offending the woman.
When the woman left I steered the conversation towards the role of authority in academia, and the problem of diversity etc. He agreed, with my comments, being a Left-wing academic like myself. Then I dropped the clanger, saying that the way he behaved around the young woman was destined to make her feel uncomfortable.
His face went sheet white, as he realised what had just happened. He didn't lose any respect for me, in fact, at a much later date he told me how much he appreciated me pointing out what I did. I also apologised to the woman the next time I saw her.
In the situation you outline a lot of things might be different. For instance, the co-worker/boss might actually feel negative feelings towards women, or consider that being 'one of the guys' means acting in this way. Regardless of his political position, it is possible to find some aspect of work ethics that he does agree with, and turn it around to make him see that his behaviour was not acceptable. This can be done carefully, respectfully, and in a way that does not make him feel attacked - and liable to lash out later.
There is a lot of respect to be earned from the skill of being able to show a person you understand them, and then wield that 'understanding' in a way which opens their perspective a bit.
posted by 0bvious at 6:16 AM on July 28, 2015 [11 favorites]
He acted this way partly in an older-man-being-flirty-with-a-younger-woman (playful but misguided) kind of way, but by doing it in my company he also gestured to me as an accomplice of sorts. Anyway. The woman was obviously uncomfortable, I could see that. I tried in the situation to not respond to his gestures to my complicity. I tried to disagree with him and steer the conversation elsewhere. But I basically failed to stop the situation from offending the woman.
When the woman left I steered the conversation towards the role of authority in academia, and the problem of diversity etc. He agreed, with my comments, being a Left-wing academic like myself. Then I dropped the clanger, saying that the way he behaved around the young woman was destined to make her feel uncomfortable.
His face went sheet white, as he realised what had just happened. He didn't lose any respect for me, in fact, at a much later date he told me how much he appreciated me pointing out what I did. I also apologised to the woman the next time I saw her.
In the situation you outline a lot of things might be different. For instance, the co-worker/boss might actually feel negative feelings towards women, or consider that being 'one of the guys' means acting in this way. Regardless of his political position, it is possible to find some aspect of work ethics that he does agree with, and turn it around to make him see that his behaviour was not acceptable. This can be done carefully, respectfully, and in a way that does not make him feel attacked - and liable to lash out later.
There is a lot of respect to be earned from the skill of being able to show a person you understand them, and then wield that 'understanding' in a way which opens their perspective a bit.
posted by 0bvious at 6:16 AM on July 28, 2015 [11 favorites]
Silence, maintained eye contact, and a neutral expression for a beat or two (just long enough for it to be uncomfortable), then he should change the subject to something work-related. This is a little more assertive than changing the subject/refusing to engage/showing discomfort through body language, but less assertive than saying something even mildly chastising.
posted by mchorn at 6:40 AM on July 28, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by mchorn at 6:40 AM on July 28, 2015 [2 favorites]
I love 0bvious' answer, and agree that the best response would be a private talk with this dude (or a call to HR if, as Don Pepino fairly points out, your SO doesn't feel comfortable handling this himself). For an immediate reaction, though, I like the idea of some form of 'smell the fart acting' (to borrow a phrase, lord help me, from Friends) ... big pause, eye contact, faintly disgusted look on your face - respond as if the dude has just let out a long, rancid, sputtering ass-blast.
posted by DingoMutt at 6:52 AM on July 28, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by DingoMutt at 6:52 AM on July 28, 2015 [1 favorite]
Mod note: Couple of comments deleted. AskMe needs to not be a debate space; please keep answers directed toward OP's situation. Thanks.
posted by LobsterMitten (staff) at 7:10 AM on July 28, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by LobsterMitten (staff) at 7:10 AM on July 28, 2015 [2 favorites]
Snark, jokes and scorn aren't the answer---professionalism is. Snark, jokes and yeah, even scorn feed the behaviour (and make you the bad guy).
I've had to deal with very similar situations myself.
Give them a chance first: "George, can you put a lid on it? That's inviting a lawsuit." Give them a couple of chances if you think they're worth it. Don't be indirect, don't imply. Reference the behaviour directly, and note that this behaviour could have serious consequence. The link to the consequence makes the criticism harder to ignore. Be polite, cordial even, but don't back down.
Two, three strikes, his manager and/or HR.
posted by bonehead at 7:13 AM on July 28, 2015 [2 favorites]
I've had to deal with very similar situations myself.
Give them a chance first: "George, can you put a lid on it? That's inviting a lawsuit." Give them a couple of chances if you think they're worth it. Don't be indirect, don't imply. Reference the behaviour directly, and note that this behaviour could have serious consequence. The link to the consequence makes the criticism harder to ignore. Be polite, cordial even, but don't back down.
Two, three strikes, his manager and/or HR.
posted by bonehead at 7:13 AM on July 28, 2015 [2 favorites]
"Dude, you might not want to say things like that out loud. This is work. She's our coworker."
The only trouble with this script is that it assumes he can have empathy for her. This might be true, but if it isn't, the consequences to him route is a bit surer, IME.
posted by bonehead at 7:17 AM on July 28, 2015 [1 favorite]
The only trouble with this script is that it assumes he can have empathy for her. This might be true, but if it isn't, the consequences to him route is a bit surer, IME.
posted by bonehead at 7:17 AM on July 28, 2015 [1 favorite]
Response by poster: Hi, sorry, I posted right before bed or I would have clarified sooner--there is no HR, by professional suicide I mean that they are both senior professionals who work closely together in a small community and the offending party's referrals are important to our income.
posted by HotToddy at 7:41 AM on July 28, 2015
posted by HotToddy at 7:41 AM on July 28, 2015
I would recommend saving the threat of lawsuits and HR as a last resort. To a bigot, that kind of thing can parse as some sort of political correctness gone mad scenario being visited upon them by the people they're targeting. This is something that haunts a lot of professional women and can really affect their careers--this notion that they're just lying in wait for you to slip up so they can run to HR and file complaints.
The HR threat is an option if someone is resistant to other approaches, but I'd recommend starting out with social censure and appeals to common decency.
As a man and a colleague, rather than implying right out of the gate that those women might lodge official complaints against him, let him know that you (you being your husband or whoever) don't like it. That you think it's gross, you don't like hearing it, and don't want to participate.
And introduce empathy into the equation, speculating about how difficult you think it'd be having to work with people who thought and talked about you that way.
And if neither of those works, and you do end up having to bring up HR issues, bring them up initially as that sort of talk making YOU uncomfortable.
Oh. I really should have previewed. Ignore all that HR talk, then.
posted by ernielundquist at 7:50 AM on July 28, 2015 [2 favorites]
The HR threat is an option if someone is resistant to other approaches, but I'd recommend starting out with social censure and appeals to common decency.
As a man and a colleague, rather than implying right out of the gate that those women might lodge official complaints against him, let him know that you (you being your husband or whoever) don't like it. That you think it's gross, you don't like hearing it, and don't want to participate.
And introduce empathy into the equation, speculating about how difficult you think it'd be having to work with people who thought and talked about you that way.
And if neither of those works, and you do end up having to bring up HR issues, bring them up initially as that sort of talk making YOU uncomfortable.
Oh. I really should have previewed. Ignore all that HR talk, then.
posted by ernielundquist at 7:50 AM on July 28, 2015 [2 favorites]
"I really like to keep that sort of thing outside of work." It implies that, were they just throwing back beers at a horrible Irish bar where the servers have to wear tiny kilts, your husband would also be a spineless lowlife creep, thus not insulting the spineless lowlife creep: but it also makes it clear that your husband will not participate at all while at work.
posted by Juliet Banana at 7:55 AM on July 28, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by Juliet Banana at 7:55 AM on July 28, 2015 [1 favorite]
I'd go with a very direct, neutral, professional statement: "I'm not comfortable with hearing a co-worker discussed in that way." Repeat it like a broken record. I'd also suggest privately going to a supervisor (ideally, your husband's supervisor -- but really, any supervisor he feels he can trust).
If your husband can flag this for the company, he absolutely should, both to cover his own ass (he does NOT want to be lumped in with this dude when the investigation does go down, I can tell you that), and to be in solidarity with the women in question. Think about this: what if the co-worker (let's call him Goofus) is treating these women objectionably in a way that's too subtle for them to easily report, but makes their lives harder? I think it's very possible that he may be acting blatantly unprofessional only in front of your husband, under the assumption that your husband is on his team. In other words, Goofus is relying on your husband's silence and complicity. The women in question may never have enough evidence to report Goofus for his behavior -- but your husband does, and he should. If this is the first time the issue has been raised, then Goofus might just get a reminder of policy. If this is part of a larger pattern, then your husband's report may be the thing that makes it possible to get Goofus out of there.
Goofus sounds like something of a ticking time-bomb -- he's doing something that could destroy his own reputation and that of the company as well -- so relying on him for recommendations may not be a good long-term strategy. This might be good tack to take when discussing it with the supervisor -- something along the lines of, "I want to make sure that both Goofus and the company are well-respected in the industry and the community. I'm concerned that Goofus's behavior may be putting his reputation, and that of the company, at risk right now. I've raised my concerns with him, but I'm not an HR professional. I'd appreciate it if he could get some formal training on best practices for avoiding harassment and discrimination claims."
posted by ourobouros at 8:04 AM on July 28, 2015 [2 favorites]
If your husband can flag this for the company, he absolutely should, both to cover his own ass (he does NOT want to be lumped in with this dude when the investigation does go down, I can tell you that), and to be in solidarity with the women in question. Think about this: what if the co-worker (let's call him Goofus) is treating these women objectionably in a way that's too subtle for them to easily report, but makes their lives harder? I think it's very possible that he may be acting blatantly unprofessional only in front of your husband, under the assumption that your husband is on his team. In other words, Goofus is relying on your husband's silence and complicity. The women in question may never have enough evidence to report Goofus for his behavior -- but your husband does, and he should. If this is the first time the issue has been raised, then Goofus might just get a reminder of policy. If this is part of a larger pattern, then your husband's report may be the thing that makes it possible to get Goofus out of there.
Goofus sounds like something of a ticking time-bomb -- he's doing something that could destroy his own reputation and that of the company as well -- so relying on him for recommendations may not be a good long-term strategy. This might be good tack to take when discussing it with the supervisor -- something along the lines of, "I want to make sure that both Goofus and the company are well-respected in the industry and the community. I'm concerned that Goofus's behavior may be putting his reputation, and that of the company, at risk right now. I've raised my concerns with him, but I'm not an HR professional. I'd appreciate it if he could get some formal training on best practices for avoiding harassment and discrimination claims."
posted by ourobouros at 8:04 AM on July 28, 2015 [2 favorites]
If they're both professional consultants it very likely that there are no managers or HR to report anything to. These are all free actors.
In that case, sure, friendly warnings through appeals to empathy to remarks about consequences can all still work.
Longer term though, look for another source of referrals. Ultimately in this situation, I've found the only successful route is to play the long game and disentangle yourselves from the bad actor as much as possible. If he's behaving this way, it's very likely that he's turning clients off in other ways too, and burning bridges without knowing it.
"I really like to keep that sort of thing outside of work."
I would not use this. This would, in my view, be condoning the behaviour.
posted by bonehead at 8:23 AM on July 28, 2015 [5 favorites]
In that case, sure, friendly warnings through appeals to empathy to remarks about consequences can all still work.
Longer term though, look for another source of referrals. Ultimately in this situation, I've found the only successful route is to play the long game and disentangle yourselves from the bad actor as much as possible. If he's behaving this way, it's very likely that he's turning clients off in other ways too, and burning bridges without knowing it.
"I really like to keep that sort of thing outside of work."
I would not use this. This would, in my view, be condoning the behaviour.
posted by bonehead at 8:23 AM on July 28, 2015 [5 favorites]
Cheers for Don Pepino's distinction that your SO is also a target in this situation! Any response should be about your SO's own discomfort with his coworker's actions, and should not undermine the paradigm of a non-sexual professional environment. Coworker's actions are unacceptable whether the coworker is 'caught' (by imaginary HR or the women he discusses) or not.
Since HR isn't an option in this situation, I like the suggestions along the lines of 'this is a professional environment. You're making me uncomfortable.' delivered in a calm, firm tone of voice.
I think the 'are you 14 years old?' one is good because it confers the idea in a more lighthearted way without making light of the situation altogether. if coworker continues, your SO could say 'I'm serious. Stop acting like a teenager and start acting like a professional adult.'
posted by leemleem at 8:25 AM on July 28, 2015
Since HR isn't an option in this situation, I like the suggestions along the lines of 'this is a professional environment. You're making me uncomfortable.' delivered in a calm, firm tone of voice.
I think the 'are you 14 years old?' one is good because it confers the idea in a more lighthearted way without making light of the situation altogether. if coworker continues, your SO could say 'I'm serious. Stop acting like a teenager and start acting like a professional adult.'
posted by leemleem at 8:25 AM on July 28, 2015
"Are you asking them how you think _I_ look today?"
posted by mikeh at 8:38 AM on July 28, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by mikeh at 8:38 AM on July 28, 2015 [2 favorites]
"I don't view our colleagues through that lens."
posted by A Terrible Llama at 8:53 AM on July 28, 2015
posted by A Terrible Llama at 8:53 AM on July 28, 2015
Whether your SO can "manage" this situation is really dependent on how aggressive Creepy Guy is, and how willing he is to use his professional power to try to coerce your SO to go along. Even though they are consultants, I assume their clients, at some point in the chain, have HR departments/rules about treatment of employees. Presumably some of the clients are in fact women.
That's a good enough reason to tell Creepy Guy "Talking that way about women at work makes me uncomfortable, it's not fair to our coworkers and it's not good for business; we could end up offending a client. Let's just keep it about work, ok?"
posted by emjaybee at 9:30 AM on July 28, 2015
That's a good enough reason to tell Creepy Guy "Talking that way about women at work makes me uncomfortable, it's not fair to our coworkers and it's not good for business; we could end up offending a client. Let's just keep it about work, ok?"
posted by emjaybee at 9:30 AM on July 28, 2015
While normally I'm a big fan of obvious opprobrium, this might be a case for just firm disengagement. So instead of saying "Oh, GROSS" (which is typically my favorite tactic), I might just stare at him for a beat, then say confusedly ". . . sorry, what?!" in a tone of "I cannot figure out why you just put those words in that order in this place at this time." If the dude doubles down, just look appalled and say "Dude, you're at work." It may be necessary to go so far as "Look, whatever, I'm not the thought police, but these are my colleagues you're talking about and I'm not here for that. Can we drop it?"
posted by KathrynT at 10:02 AM on July 28, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by KathrynT at 10:02 AM on July 28, 2015 [1 favorite]
Just because there's no HR doesn't mean that this guy isn't putting a target on the company for a successful sexual harassment/hostile workplace lawsuit. HR tries to mediate situations like this before they're a major liability. Without HR, you're far more vulnerable. This guy is being reckless with the company's well-being.
posted by quince at 11:17 AM on July 28, 2015 [3 favorites]
posted by quince at 11:17 AM on July 28, 2015 [3 favorites]
Facial expression of "ick, what?" Then shaking it off and changing the subject. If that gets ignored a couple times he can try a grimace and walk away. "Dude, what? I am not interested in this."
Think like you're talking to a dog. Body language and tone are more important than words. Anything said while smiling or laughing can be read as approving. Go back to smiling afterward to show that you aren't uncomfortable about *him* just about what he *said*.
posted by Lady Li at 11:44 AM on July 28, 2015 [2 favorites]
Think like you're talking to a dog. Body language and tone are more important than words. Anything said while smiling or laughing can be read as approving. Go back to smiling afterward to show that you aren't uncomfortable about *him* just about what he *said*.
posted by Lady Li at 11:44 AM on July 28, 2015 [2 favorites]
It's ultimately professional suicide for the referring guy to continue. There are too many ways for him to get caught and ruined.
What is his succession plan when the situation that he flouts, fails? Bill Cosby's book sales and income won't recover from his deplorable treatment of women, and most of his situations pre-dated smart-phone usage. It's a bad business plan to alienate a demographic that is half the world.
Your spouse should start positioning himself to replace the guy while mentioning his boundary on this topic. You are crazy to be talking like that, it could really limit opportunities might be a response if he is called upon to respond.
posted by childofTethys at 12:00 PM on July 28, 2015
What is his succession plan when the situation that he flouts, fails? Bill Cosby's book sales and income won't recover from his deplorable treatment of women, and most of his situations pre-dated smart-phone usage. It's a bad business plan to alienate a demographic that is half the world.
Your spouse should start positioning himself to replace the guy while mentioning his boundary on this topic. You are crazy to be talking like that, it could really limit opportunities might be a response if he is called upon to respond.
posted by childofTethys at 12:00 PM on July 28, 2015
'I have a deal with myself that I don't join in with dude-ish ratings of women, so don't be offended if I don't join you on this lark, mate.'
I don't like the appeals to outside authorities or to empathy - assholes don't care. Just say what's true for you and your morals. What can an asshole say to that? That you're a 'beta' 'brainwashed' 'pussy whipped'? Big fucking deal. Response: *Shrug 'it's just what works for me'*
(I've been inspired by a gal I met recently who works in a laddish cultural environment. She cheerfully and bluntly says to overtures 'I don't cheat on my husband, ever, so I'm going to ignore that innuendo blip if you don't mind.')
posted by honey-barbara at 12:35 PM on July 28, 2015
I don't like the appeals to outside authorities or to empathy - assholes don't care. Just say what's true for you and your morals. What can an asshole say to that? That you're a 'beta' 'brainwashed' 'pussy whipped'? Big fucking deal. Response: *Shrug 'it's just what works for me'*
(I've been inspired by a gal I met recently who works in a laddish cultural environment. She cheerfully and bluntly says to overtures 'I don't cheat on my husband, ever, so I'm going to ignore that innuendo blip if you don't mind.')
posted by honey-barbara at 12:35 PM on July 28, 2015
However else he might handle it (and many of the suggestions above are good) he can also say something positive and appropriate about the woman this dude is drooling over. She's great at making results happen, the clients really take to her, etc. Make it clear that he views her with respect.
posted by wryly at 1:34 PM on July 28, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by wryly at 1:34 PM on July 28, 2015 [2 favorites]
However else he might handle it (and many of the suggestions above are good) he can also say something positive and appropriate about the woman this dude is drooling over. She's great at making results happen, the clients really take to her, etc. Make it clear that he views her with respect.
posted by wryly at 5:34 AM on July 29 [+] [!]
Joking back isn't appropriate because it sends the message that this is something to joke about. Nasty joking back doesn't accomplish the goal of not committing workplace reputational damage.
Total silence is one strategy.
Another is to say something positive about the person that focuses on their work qualities, like, "I like working with Emma, she's really great at _____," which communicates that (a) your SO isn't interested in talking about people's attractiveness at work and relatedly, (b) he values Emma as a worker, not as something to look at.
A more aggressive strategy might be to say something like, "Dude, you might not want to say things like that out loud. This is work. She's our coworker."
posted by MoonOrb at 3:19 PM on July 28 [83 favorites +] [!]
I have a male roommate/friend who I have to do this with fairly often. I know, why would I know someone like this, but he has redeeming values. In cases where you want to maintain the relationship with someone who insistently, unrepentantly tries to sex anything that moves, a more delicate touch is sometimes called for, and that's where the advice above and mine might come in handy.
Changing the topic to positive non-appearance or non-sexual aspects of the people under discussion works on him ("She always knows the coolest bands, did she ever tell you how she does that?" "She also has a tarantula. Who has a tarantula? How cool is that?"), as well as frequent and public mentions of his girlfriend (who lives with us) & his opinions about other women when my (already fairly "laddish") female friends are around ("Remember that girl we saw on the subway, how cute you said she was?" "Remember the girl you met at the bar last week? What happened with her?"), and frequently pointing out his body language when he tries to "keno" ("Wow, already playing tag, here, you're it! Now you're it! Is this freeze tag? Somebody freeze me!" "Guys, do that touchy thing again, I need to make a gif of this, that was SMOOTH!" "*singsong* It's the kinesthetic punctuation dance, get down!"). Sometimes I have to repeat these tactics a few times before he gets the message, but he usually does, and I just plead ignorance if he gets on my case about it afterward.
I also know that in your case this is at work, and a whole different set of considerations will apply, but I think, if your husband wants to maintain his relationship with this coworker, he might have to operate on this guy's frequency. My friend doesn't step out of his own headspace where this is concerned, and his goal is simple - sleep with All Teh Women. Assume this is a legitimate pursuit and insert your own values into that framework to distract him. In my case I'd say, for example, "Uhh, you can't hit on my friend, no, I need her to wing for me, and I ain't gonna let no spurned-or-creeped-on-by-roommate vibes awkward that up. But be cool, and if she likes you she'll pimp you out to her girlfriends." In your case, "Yeah she is hot, but she's also smart enough to file a sexual harassment complaint if you keep talking like this and it gets back to her, and it will if you keep ogling her with the bros in the office. Remember office politics? It wouldn't take much for someone to report you if they wanted your job in 2015. And why risk it when OKcupid and 4G are right in your pocket? *pull out phone, search female seeking male* See? The world is your oyster." Alternatively, "Look, you always tell me how hot you think these women are. If you want to take them out for a date, go for it, but you know football? I watch the games, not the fantasy football boards. Come back when you have a real story to tell me." <>
Obviously, if diversionary tactics like this don't work, f**k this skeevy dude, 'cause it ain't worth keeping a career (or social, as is often the case with people who can't keep it in their pants) liability around. Torch bridge, build another.
posted by saysthis at 6:06 PM on July 28, 2015
posted by wryly at 5:34 AM on July 29 [+] [!]
Joking back isn't appropriate because it sends the message that this is something to joke about. Nasty joking back doesn't accomplish the goal of not committing workplace reputational damage.
Total silence is one strategy.
Another is to say something positive about the person that focuses on their work qualities, like, "I like working with Emma, she's really great at _____," which communicates that (a) your SO isn't interested in talking about people's attractiveness at work and relatedly, (b) he values Emma as a worker, not as something to look at.
A more aggressive strategy might be to say something like, "Dude, you might not want to say things like that out loud. This is work. She's our coworker."
posted by MoonOrb at 3:19 PM on July 28 [83 favorites +] [!]
I have a male roommate/friend who I have to do this with fairly often. I know, why would I know someone like this, but he has redeeming values. In cases where you want to maintain the relationship with someone who insistently, unrepentantly tries to sex anything that moves, a more delicate touch is sometimes called for, and that's where the advice above and mine might come in handy.
Changing the topic to positive non-appearance or non-sexual aspects of the people under discussion works on him ("She always knows the coolest bands, did she ever tell you how she does that?" "She also has a tarantula. Who has a tarantula? How cool is that?"), as well as frequent and public mentions of his girlfriend (who lives with us) & his opinions about other women when my (already fairly "laddish") female friends are around ("Remember that girl we saw on the subway, how cute you said she was?" "Remember the girl you met at the bar last week? What happened with her?"), and frequently pointing out his body language when he tries to "keno" ("Wow, already playing tag, here, you're it! Now you're it! Is this freeze tag? Somebody freeze me!" "Guys, do that touchy thing again, I need to make a gif of this, that was SMOOTH!" "*singsong* It's the kinesthetic punctuation dance, get down!"). Sometimes I have to repeat these tactics a few times before he gets the message, but he usually does, and I just plead ignorance if he gets on my case about it afterward.
I also know that in your case this is at work, and a whole different set of considerations will apply, but I think, if your husband wants to maintain his relationship with this coworker, he might have to operate on this guy's frequency. My friend doesn't step out of his own headspace where this is concerned, and his goal is simple - sleep with All Teh Women. Assume this is a legitimate pursuit and insert your own values into that framework to distract him. In my case I'd say, for example, "Uhh, you can't hit on my friend, no, I need her to wing for me, and I ain't gonna let no spurned-or-creeped-on-by-roommate vibes awkward that up. But be cool, and if she likes you she'll pimp you out to her girlfriends." In your case, "Yeah she is hot, but she's also smart enough to file a sexual harassment complaint if you keep talking like this and it gets back to her, and it will if you keep ogling her with the bros in the office. Remember office politics? It wouldn't take much for someone to report you if they wanted your job in 2015. And why risk it when OKcupid and 4G are right in your pocket? *pull out phone, search female seeking male* See? The world is your oyster." Alternatively, "Look, you always tell me how hot you think these women are. If you want to take them out for a date, go for it, but you know football? I watch the games, not the fantasy football boards. Come back when you have a real story to tell me." <>
Obviously, if diversionary tactics like this don't work, f**k this skeevy dude, 'cause it ain't worth keeping a career (or social, as is often the case with people who can't keep it in their pants) liability around. Torch bridge, build another.
posted by saysthis at 6:06 PM on July 28, 2015
Hard conversations are hard. If he wants to do the right thing, he's going to have to be a little bit brave. He doesn't have to lecture his colleague, but a simple "not cool" every time he does it would be a good start. I think the question he has to ask himself is, what are the possible outcomes? A) the colleague goes batshit on him, starts doing it more, yells at him, whatever. At some point you become what you tolerate, does he really want to have that toxic shit at work? B) The colleague is annoyed but stops doing it and soon forgets about it, and possibly just stops doing it as much in life. Awesome. C) The colleague has an honest conversation about why it bothers him and maybe actually changes his mind and stops doing it. Whatever. You can trace out many variants of this.
People often want to know the easy way to have a hard conversation at work, and it doesn't exist. There's no magic words that let your husband stop the comments without putting him at mild risk of his colleague reacting poorly. I personally think it's worth the small risk of negative reaction to be in an environment where he doesn't feel party to harassment, obviously it's his call. This is a good opportunity to practice productive disagreement and boundary setting though. And he'll feel much better when he's done it.
posted by ch1x0r at 7:32 PM on July 28, 2015 [3 favorites]
People often want to know the easy way to have a hard conversation at work, and it doesn't exist. There's no magic words that let your husband stop the comments without putting him at mild risk of his colleague reacting poorly. I personally think it's worth the small risk of negative reaction to be in an environment where he doesn't feel party to harassment, obviously it's his call. This is a good opportunity to practice productive disagreement and boundary setting though. And he'll feel much better when he's done it.
posted by ch1x0r at 7:32 PM on July 28, 2015 [3 favorites]
"My sister/cousin/college friend/buddy's wife worked with this guy who kept saying [thing that Mr. Dumbass just said] and [other thing that Mr. Dumbass just said]. She had to stop her husband from beating the guy to death. She filed a lawsuit and got a settlement, and I think the guy eventually lost his job. It was a shitty situation all around."
How is this guy going to know the story isn't true?
posted by cnc at 10:01 PM on July 28, 2015
How is this guy going to know the story isn't true?
posted by cnc at 10:01 PM on July 28, 2015
Response by poster: Thanks everyone. Interesting to see how many different ways there are of handling it. I can't know what the best answer is but I really appreciate all your ideas.
posted by HotToddy at 7:36 AM on July 29, 2015
posted by HotToddy at 7:36 AM on July 29, 2015
In my company and every other company where I've worked, if an outside party (contractor, consultant, client, whoever) harasses me or creates a hostile environment, I am to report it to my HR dept who will then investigate and may stop doing business with the third party or even take legal action. And nobody needs an HR department to stop using his services because they don't like him, or to sue him for any reason. So the fact that he doesn't have an HR department does not mean this can't impact his career.
I know he is saying this to your husband and presumably not (directly) to the women but if he thinks he will never be overheard-- I'd be surprised if the women don't already know he's like this--then he's gravely mistaken. And the fact that this bothers your husband is enough. Why should a man be allowed to force another man to converse about sex in the workplace?
I don't think your husband needs to coach him to be a better person; I think he just needs to remind him that it's not okay/not cool/not professional/not appropriate/not welcome, or whatever your husband is comfortable saying, each time it comes up, the way he might if this guy were doing anything unprofessional, like getting drunk on the job or emailing racist cartoons around. If this guy torches your husband's career over him coolly, quickly saying "not appropriate" to a clearly inappropriate remark, then he is not a stable professional and will torch your husband's career/reputation for some other reason someday anyway.
posted by kapers at 8:13 AM on July 29, 2015
I know he is saying this to your husband and presumably not (directly) to the women but if he thinks he will never be overheard-- I'd be surprised if the women don't already know he's like this--then he's gravely mistaken. And the fact that this bothers your husband is enough. Why should a man be allowed to force another man to converse about sex in the workplace?
I don't think your husband needs to coach him to be a better person; I think he just needs to remind him that it's not okay/not cool/not professional/not appropriate/not welcome, or whatever your husband is comfortable saying, each time it comes up, the way he might if this guy were doing anything unprofessional, like getting drunk on the job or emailing racist cartoons around. If this guy torches your husband's career over him coolly, quickly saying "not appropriate" to a clearly inappropriate remark, then he is not a stable professional and will torch your husband's career/reputation for some other reason someday anyway.
posted by kapers at 8:13 AM on July 29, 2015
This thread is closed to new comments.
posted by k8t at 10:53 PM on July 27, 2015 [57 favorites]