"It's sad that our husbands don't talk anymore."
July 19, 2015 8:58 AM
How do I respond, if at all, to an out-of-the-blue message from the wife of my husband's ex-friend, telling me: "It's sad that our husbands don't talk anymore. I know [my husband] misses your husband."
The backstory: One of my husband's post-college-era friends since '00 (let's call him "Adam") lives 2 time zones away, and they'd only see each other once a year on an annual trip my husband organized for them and two other guys for the last 4 years. On last summer's trip, Adam unfortunately treated my husband like total shit-- to the point it was a legitimate deal breaker for my husband, who made a wise decision to cancel all future trips with Adam and the 2 other guys (though he chose not to come right out and tell any of them this). My husband slowly dialed back the level of intimacy between him and Adam down to text or phone interactions every other month or so to bring them to the level of something like "friendly acquaintances." Adam definitely has a track record of much preferring texting over talking on the phone or in person (he's one of those people who texts constantly at the restaurant table even if you haven't seen each other in forever and have loads to catch up on). For the last year, Adam has seemed 100% ok with this new, less intimate, lower level of friendship. My husband thought all was well.
Until two months ago, when my husband gets a surprising text from Adam, coincidentally when Adam knew we were visiting with one of the other 2 former "trip guys" and his wife (who are not fans of Adam anymore, either, for their own separate, valid reasons). Verbatim text from Adam: "Whatever happened in [trip State] should be a thing of the past and we should resume our former ways. Hope you're enjoying [City]."
My husband pondered this for a day and then texted Adam back: (verbatim) "If you're interested in discussing our relationship then we need to have an honest conversation on the phone. If not, no worries. I understand." And Adam immediately responded by text (verbatim): "Absolutely. I'm very confused by the whole thing and need to know what happened. Suddenly I lost one of my best friends. I'm sure everyone on that trip has their own version of what happened and I want to hear yours and make sure I understand how you feel. I don't want to lose 15 years of friendship."
Then, kind of amazingly but not that surprisingly, Adam never picked up the phone and called my husband at all -- we know Adam prefers texting, and it seems Adam wants their friendship to go back to the way it was again without having to actually talk about his own actions there and/or make amends for the many devaluing things Adam said and did to my husband on the trip (and, by the way, lest anyone think my husband is being overly sensitive about this, he later found out that unbeknownst to him, one of the other guys actually pulled Adam aside on the trip and demanded he stop treating my husband like shit and ruining the trip for the rest of them). Anyway, my husband thought Adam's second text was some bullshit, but par for the course for Adam, and had already long since concluded that Adam was a good person deep down, but was not real friend material anymore, so my husband decided to just leave it at that and did not respond to Adam's second text. He says he does not want any type of validation from Adam, and at this point just accepts that all Adam is capable of is "Whatever happened should be a thing of the past" kinds of texts interactions, although part of him would've appreciated an apology a year ago, he's moved on from it. (He, of course, knows that blocking Adam's texts on his phone is the next logical option, but it probably won't come to that since he hasn't heard from Adam in over 2 months.)
Adam's wife, who is only an acquaintance of mine and has not ever been a close friend, recently texted me a pregnancy announcement and picture. I texted her back: "Congratulations!!! Hope you are feeling well!" Adam's wife text replies to me (verbatim): "It's sad that our husbands don't talk anymore. I know [Adam] misses your husband." When I read Adam's wife's text, I felt manipulated and like she was trying to drag me into this. Part of me wants to respond by calling her out - like "Nice try, but don't drag me into this." but I also don't want to engage further; she's pregnant and I want to be kind. I keep going back and forth on what to say, if anything. Ignoring her seems like an appealing option, too.
How do I respond to Adam's wife's text, if at all, given the context that my husband is 1) absolutely NOT interested in resuming a close friendship with Adam, and 2) if Adam wants closure, my husband would welcome a phone call from Adam to have an honest conversation and provide feedback, but it's not at all necessary, and 3) I feel strongly this does not need to involve me and I don't appreciate Adam's wife involving me. Scripts? Thoughts? Thank you, hive mind!
The backstory: One of my husband's post-college-era friends since '00 (let's call him "Adam") lives 2 time zones away, and they'd only see each other once a year on an annual trip my husband organized for them and two other guys for the last 4 years. On last summer's trip, Adam unfortunately treated my husband like total shit-- to the point it was a legitimate deal breaker for my husband, who made a wise decision to cancel all future trips with Adam and the 2 other guys (though he chose not to come right out and tell any of them this). My husband slowly dialed back the level of intimacy between him and Adam down to text or phone interactions every other month or so to bring them to the level of something like "friendly acquaintances." Adam definitely has a track record of much preferring texting over talking on the phone or in person (he's one of those people who texts constantly at the restaurant table even if you haven't seen each other in forever and have loads to catch up on). For the last year, Adam has seemed 100% ok with this new, less intimate, lower level of friendship. My husband thought all was well.
Until two months ago, when my husband gets a surprising text from Adam, coincidentally when Adam knew we were visiting with one of the other 2 former "trip guys" and his wife (who are not fans of Adam anymore, either, for their own separate, valid reasons). Verbatim text from Adam: "Whatever happened in [trip State] should be a thing of the past and we should resume our former ways. Hope you're enjoying [City]."
My husband pondered this for a day and then texted Adam back: (verbatim) "If you're interested in discussing our relationship then we need to have an honest conversation on the phone. If not, no worries. I understand." And Adam immediately responded by text (verbatim): "Absolutely. I'm very confused by the whole thing and need to know what happened. Suddenly I lost one of my best friends. I'm sure everyone on that trip has their own version of what happened and I want to hear yours and make sure I understand how you feel. I don't want to lose 15 years of friendship."
Then, kind of amazingly but not that surprisingly, Adam never picked up the phone and called my husband at all -- we know Adam prefers texting, and it seems Adam wants their friendship to go back to the way it was again without having to actually talk about his own actions there and/or make amends for the many devaluing things Adam said and did to my husband on the trip (and, by the way, lest anyone think my husband is being overly sensitive about this, he later found out that unbeknownst to him, one of the other guys actually pulled Adam aside on the trip and demanded he stop treating my husband like shit and ruining the trip for the rest of them). Anyway, my husband thought Adam's second text was some bullshit, but par for the course for Adam, and had already long since concluded that Adam was a good person deep down, but was not real friend material anymore, so my husband decided to just leave it at that and did not respond to Adam's second text. He says he does not want any type of validation from Adam, and at this point just accepts that all Adam is capable of is "Whatever happened should be a thing of the past" kinds of texts interactions, although part of him would've appreciated an apology a year ago, he's moved on from it. (He, of course, knows that blocking Adam's texts on his phone is the next logical option, but it probably won't come to that since he hasn't heard from Adam in over 2 months.)
Adam's wife, who is only an acquaintance of mine and has not ever been a close friend, recently texted me a pregnancy announcement and picture. I texted her back: "Congratulations!!! Hope you are feeling well!" Adam's wife text replies to me (verbatim): "It's sad that our husbands don't talk anymore. I know [Adam] misses your husband." When I read Adam's wife's text, I felt manipulated and like she was trying to drag me into this. Part of me wants to respond by calling her out - like "Nice try, but don't drag me into this." but I also don't want to engage further; she's pregnant and I want to be kind. I keep going back and forth on what to say, if anything. Ignoring her seems like an appealing option, too.
How do I respond to Adam's wife's text, if at all, given the context that my husband is 1) absolutely NOT interested in resuming a close friendship with Adam, and 2) if Adam wants closure, my husband would welcome a phone call from Adam to have an honest conversation and provide feedback, but it's not at all necessary, and 3) I feel strongly this does not need to involve me and I don't appreciate Adam's wife involving me. Scripts? Thoughts? Thank you, hive mind!
(3) seems valid to me. these things are complicated, and given (1) i don't see what point there is to all this anyway. the general rule is: if you fuck up, you fix it yourself. so it's adam's job, not yours, or his wife's (although i can imagine she was just trying to help).
so yeah, ignore.
posted by andrewcooke at 9:04 AM on July 19, 2015
so yeah, ignore.
posted by andrewcooke at 9:04 AM on July 19, 2015
Ignore. She's baiting you. How sad that she and her husband are a pair of drama llamas.
posted by Hermione Granger at 9:06 AM on July 19, 2015
posted by Hermione Granger at 9:06 AM on July 19, 2015
My interpretation is that the text Adam sent my have been an okay for your husband to call,not that it meant that the ball was in Adam's court.
I'm not saying it's necessarily worth it for your husband to call or that he has to, but if it's really important to him, he should just call or set up a time to call. I don't think Adam necessarily dropped the ball here.
posted by bearette at 9:09 AM on July 19, 2015
I'm not saying it's necessarily worth it for your husband to call or that he has to, but if it's really important to him, he should just call or set up a time to call. I don't think Adam necessarily dropped the ball here.
posted by bearette at 9:09 AM on July 19, 2015
Given your 1) and 2), I have this to say:
Fuck "closure". Closure is a useful thing for people who have been wronged, but it has been co-opted by assholes as a way to force the victims of their assholery to A) re-engage so the assholes can be assholes to them again, or B) make themselves out to be the wronged party ("I tried to reach out, just to give us both closure, but they wouldn't let me!").
Adam knows what he did, and he knows why your husband doesn't want to be his friend anymore, and it is killing him that anyone thinks he's at all a bad guy in any way. Good. Let him fuckin' stew in it. Maybe he'll legitimately change his ways some day (he hasn't yet, based on what you've told us), and then he'll make a more active effort to re-establish the friendship. Don't make it easier for him until you have some indication that he's trying more.
posted by Etrigan at 9:11 AM on July 19, 2015
Fuck "closure". Closure is a useful thing for people who have been wronged, but it has been co-opted by assholes as a way to force the victims of their assholery to A) re-engage so the assholes can be assholes to them again, or B) make themselves out to be the wronged party ("I tried to reach out, just to give us both closure, but they wouldn't let me!").
Adam knows what he did, and he knows why your husband doesn't want to be his friend anymore, and it is killing him that anyone thinks he's at all a bad guy in any way. Good. Let him fuckin' stew in it. Maybe he'll legitimately change his ways some day (he hasn't yet, based on what you've told us), and then he'll make a more active effort to re-establish the friendship. Don't make it easier for him until you have some indication that he's trying more.
posted by Etrigan at 9:11 AM on July 19, 2015
@bearette - if he wants to make up, he makes the call. you don't play responsibility ping-pong over chat.
posted by andrewcooke at 9:12 AM on July 19, 2015
posted by andrewcooke at 9:12 AM on July 19, 2015
My interpretation is the same as bearette's: if I had been on the receiving end of a text that said "we need to have an honest conversation on the phone," I would have assumed the texter was going to call me, even if I'd initiated the conversation.
Regardless of whether it was that sort of misunderstanding, though, it's clear your husband doesn't want Adam in his life. All you can do in this situation is ignore them.
posted by Metroid Baby at 9:16 AM on July 19, 2015
Regardless of whether it was that sort of misunderstanding, though, it's clear your husband doesn't want Adam in his life. All you can do in this situation is ignore them.
posted by Metroid Baby at 9:16 AM on July 19, 2015
Ignore ignore ignore.
(He, of course, knows that blocking Adam's texts on his phone is the next logical option, but it probably won't come to that since he hasn't heard from Adam in over 2 months.)
Except now Adam's wife is texting you about their friendship... I'm guessing some texts from Adam will be headed his way. This was probably just an initial feeler to see if y'all would take the bait.
posted by RainyJay at 9:17 AM on July 19, 2015
(He, of course, knows that blocking Adam's texts on his phone is the next logical option, but it probably won't come to that since he hasn't heard from Adam in over 2 months.)
Except now Adam's wife is texting you about their friendship... I'm guessing some texts from Adam will be headed his way. This was probably just an initial feeler to see if y'all would take the bait.
posted by RainyJay at 9:17 AM on July 19, 2015
Adam has never apologised and the whole "version of events" thing implies he doesn't even see what he did wrong. That also probably means that what came out then was closer to his true nature, and how he feels about your husband, than a fit of temporary insanity.
Your first response to Adam's wife was cordial and you did a good thing. As to her second message, I agree the correct response is no response.
posted by vacapinta at 9:18 AM on July 19, 2015
Your first response to Adam's wife was cordial and you did a good thing. As to her second message, I agree the correct response is no response.
posted by vacapinta at 9:18 AM on July 19, 2015
1) this
and
2) "Well I think it's probably best for them to sort it out themselves, don't you? Best of luck with the pregnancy."
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 9:18 AM on July 19, 2015
and
2) "Well I think it's probably best for them to sort it out themselves, don't you? Best of luck with the pregnancy."
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 9:18 AM on July 19, 2015
If it were me, I'd probably have a couple courteous but distant engagements with her about the pregnancy and not talk about Adam or your husband with her whatsoever.
posted by box at 9:18 AM on July 19, 2015
posted by box at 9:18 AM on July 19, 2015
I would tell her that it's not your job or her job to sort this out for them.
posted by stowaway at 9:19 AM on July 19, 2015
posted by stowaway at 9:19 AM on July 19, 2015
adam's wife is doing the emotional labor for him. it's a continuation of the entire issue your husband has identified with adam - that he's unwilling to be the type of friend your husband needs specifically because he won't do any of the emotional heavy lifting to maintain relationships. feel bad for the pregnant wife that he's likely making her responsible for any negative feeling he has or mistep he makes, but there's no reason to engage her. ignore ignore ignore.
posted by nadawi at 9:20 AM on July 19, 2015
posted by nadawi at 9:20 AM on July 19, 2015
Ignore this one. If you get another, reply "I think this is best left between them. I'd rather not discuss it."
posted by inturnaround at 9:21 AM on July 19, 2015
posted by inturnaround at 9:21 AM on July 19, 2015
also, even if adam got the interpretation that your husband would be calling him, if this friendship was important as he says it is, he'd let it go a week or two and then call your husband and say "hey, i got the impression you were going to call me, but then i realized maybe you wanted me to call you - either way, this friendship is important enough to me that i took the leap to call you, i hope that's ok - is now a good time to talk?"
posted by nadawi at 9:23 AM on July 19, 2015
posted by nadawi at 9:23 AM on July 19, 2015
I agree with your husband's evaluation that Adam is not really sorry. I'm sure he misses hanging out- it sounds like he got to boss everyone around and get his way, so why wouldn't he- but he's not actually sorry. Adam sounds like a pretty forceful personality who is good with buzzwords and likes to "lead" but doesn't feel deep emotion about this.
There's a chance there was a genuine miscommunication and he was waiting for your husband to call, but even if he was- so? He should call.
It sounds like he STILL doesn't understand it was a big deal- he must have thought the distance was a temporary reaction that would eventually pass. I can picture him saying to himself "ah, he'll get over it eventually." And even feeling entitled for your husband to get over it eventually after he was done sulking. Doesn't show much depth or understanding there.
I would not just ignore this text from the wife, but your answer should be along the lines of total deflection and helplessness. "That's too bad. I don't know much about it." Or something.
posted by quincunx at 9:23 AM on July 19, 2015
There's a chance there was a genuine miscommunication and he was waiting for your husband to call, but even if he was- so? He should call.
It sounds like he STILL doesn't understand it was a big deal- he must have thought the distance was a temporary reaction that would eventually pass. I can picture him saying to himself "ah, he'll get over it eventually." And even feeling entitled for your husband to get over it eventually after he was done sulking. Doesn't show much depth or understanding there.
I would not just ignore this text from the wife, but your answer should be along the lines of total deflection and helplessness. "That's too bad. I don't know much about it." Or something.
posted by quincunx at 9:23 AM on July 19, 2015
Ignore. Then, when the baby is born, send a brief courteous note of congratulations. Move on.
posted by AugustWest at 9:28 AM on July 19, 2015
posted by AugustWest at 9:28 AM on July 19, 2015
"I think we have to let them sort this one out! Hope that you are feeling well."
posted by warriorqueen at 9:30 AM on July 19, 2015
posted by warriorqueen at 9:30 AM on July 19, 2015
I wouldn't be surprised if, as part of the nesting and other emotions she's dealing with in planning for a new kid, she's trying to fix up some other aspects of their lives. Things like Adam not having a good network of male friends he can rely on, due to having alienated your husband (and possibly others).
I'd reply with "I think that's for them to work out". It's possible that her involvement is the sort of thing that could get Adam beyond "Whatever happened is behind us now" texts and into a real conversation... I wouldn't be surprised if the initial effort of saying "what happened, I want to be friends again" was hard enough for Adam that he hasn't been able to get over that threshold and re-open the conversation after your husband didn't call him and the prior text conversation dropped. Hard to say what a good outcome from both of your husbands' POV would look like though.
posted by Lady Li at 9:52 AM on July 19, 2015
I'd reply with "I think that's for them to work out". It's possible that her involvement is the sort of thing that could get Adam beyond "Whatever happened is behind us now" texts and into a real conversation... I wouldn't be surprised if the initial effort of saying "what happened, I want to be friends again" was hard enough for Adam that he hasn't been able to get over that threshold and re-open the conversation after your husband didn't call him and the prior text conversation dropped. Hard to say what a good outcome from both of your husbands' POV would look like though.
posted by Lady Li at 9:52 AM on July 19, 2015
I don't know that she's trying to drag you into it. A charitable interpretation is that she's just being nice. Maybe she doesn't get the depth of how he acted, but I don't think you have to drive that home. It's mainly a bid to be closer to you; maybe she's feeling sentimental. You could go with something like "yes, it's too bad. Maybe they'll sort it out eventually. Good luck to you guys and your growing little one!"
posted by salvia at 9:53 AM on July 19, 2015
posted by salvia at 9:53 AM on July 19, 2015
Life is short - I don't see why your husband would not consider calling Adam and trying to come to a peaceful resolution. He doesn't have to be friends with him actively going forward, but it seems like Adam reached out authentically and misses him now. Forgiveness is a virtue.
posted by yarly at 10:04 AM on July 19, 2015
posted by yarly at 10:04 AM on July 19, 2015
You should not be involved in this. Ignoring it is fine. Answering with "it's up to Adam and [husband] to work this out, if they want to" is also fine. Spending your time and energy on it is not fine.
posted by escabeche at 10:09 AM on July 19, 2015
posted by escabeche at 10:09 AM on July 19, 2015
My interpretation is the same as bearette's: if I had been on the receiving end of a text that said "we need to have an honest conversation on the phone," I would have assumed the texter was going to call me, even if I'd initiated the conversation.
I think this is a real possible interpretation, but I also think that if someone wants to reconnect badly enough, they don't think about social propriety over who should make a phone call to try and reconnect. You just do it because you really care about someone. If Adam didn't return the call, it further validates concerns, I think. If he expected a call and used it as an excuse not to call, I'd second guess the depth of his desires or feelings of personal responsibility.
My wife had something similar like this with a friend who treated her pretty badly. My wife grieved about it for awhile, but then decided that she would do the "no initiating contact" thing, but allow the occasional cordial interaction via received text or in person or whatever. If this friend would say something like, "I miss you/our relationship," my wife would simply say, "Thanks." So, in a way, she kept her as a low-level acquaintance, but didn't allow nearly the level of intimacy that there used to be.
Every situation is different, but I think she found two things helpful about this: 1) for her, it was a matter of coming to terms with her (non) contribution to the issue and detaching from it in a way that didn't cause her pain (as it wasn't her fault), and probably included some level of forgiveness (as the other person did apologize); and 2), she was able to establish appropriate boundaries that she was comfortable with that also didn't allow for escalation into over-rationalizing it with the other person. I was pretty proud of her for figuring out what worked in a way that allowed her her own resolution/closure that didn't require the cooperation of the other person, and also allowed her some boundaries to not entirely cut off another person who made a mistake and apologized. What's clear, though, is that some of the damage done would not allow for trust in a deeper level of intimacy for the future.
Again, details change depending on the situation. But the lesson I took from my wife's situation is that it's okay to disengage and to also engage on the level that you are comfortable (some contact, no contact, just respond cordially to their initiative, whatever), without feeling the need to have to rehash the details of the new set of rules being put in place. The other person knows already, and they don't get to second-guess your reasons for establishing new boundaries based on damage done to the relationship. If the hurt party feels well enough to regain the relationship they had previously, they should not feel pressured by the person who did the hurting. The job of the hurting party is to apologize, at which point the hurt party decides when and how to reengage.
posted by SpacemanStix at 10:14 AM on July 19, 2015
I think this is a real possible interpretation, but I also think that if someone wants to reconnect badly enough, they don't think about social propriety over who should make a phone call to try and reconnect. You just do it because you really care about someone. If Adam didn't return the call, it further validates concerns, I think. If he expected a call and used it as an excuse not to call, I'd second guess the depth of his desires or feelings of personal responsibility.
My wife had something similar like this with a friend who treated her pretty badly. My wife grieved about it for awhile, but then decided that she would do the "no initiating contact" thing, but allow the occasional cordial interaction via received text or in person or whatever. If this friend would say something like, "I miss you/our relationship," my wife would simply say, "Thanks." So, in a way, she kept her as a low-level acquaintance, but didn't allow nearly the level of intimacy that there used to be.
Every situation is different, but I think she found two things helpful about this: 1) for her, it was a matter of coming to terms with her (non) contribution to the issue and detaching from it in a way that didn't cause her pain (as it wasn't her fault), and probably included some level of forgiveness (as the other person did apologize); and 2), she was able to establish appropriate boundaries that she was comfortable with that also didn't allow for escalation into over-rationalizing it with the other person. I was pretty proud of her for figuring out what worked in a way that allowed her her own resolution/closure that didn't require the cooperation of the other person, and also allowed her some boundaries to not entirely cut off another person who made a mistake and apologized. What's clear, though, is that some of the damage done would not allow for trust in a deeper level of intimacy for the future.
Again, details change depending on the situation. But the lesson I took from my wife's situation is that it's okay to disengage and to also engage on the level that you are comfortable (some contact, no contact, just respond cordially to their initiative, whatever), without feeling the need to have to rehash the details of the new set of rules being put in place. The other person knows already, and they don't get to second-guess your reasons for establishing new boundaries based on damage done to the relationship. If the hurt party feels well enough to regain the relationship they had previously, they should not feel pressured by the person who did the hurting. The job of the hurting party is to apologize, at which point the hurt party decides when and how to reengage.
posted by SpacemanStix at 10:14 AM on July 19, 2015
Also, since I don't read her text as saying "you and I should sort this out for them," a reply saying "that's up to them to sort out" strikes me as a little unnecessary. I mean, if you wanted to remain in contact with her but be sure to not talk about it, that would be a decent way to communicate that messsage. But "yes, it's too bad, good luck again!" would be equally responsive to her text.
posted by salvia at 10:24 AM on July 19, 2015
posted by salvia at 10:24 AM on July 19, 2015
Eh, interpreting charitably, maybe she's thinking that a third party overture will seem less pressuring than if Adam contacted your husband directly. She or he may be unclear on whose court the ball is in. You can clarify in a kind way.
"Yeah, it's one of those things. If Adam wants to talk to Husband, he should give him a call, texting isn't great for working things out."
posted by LobsterMitten at 10:30 AM on July 19, 2015
"Yeah, it's one of those things. If Adam wants to talk to Husband, he should give him a call, texting isn't great for working things out."
posted by LobsterMitten at 10:30 AM on July 19, 2015
Adam may feel too ashamed to call, or may not want to pressure your husband. Writing him off may feel good, but it also feels good to help people learn to be better and more happy.
You and your husband are not obligated to help Adam, or to reach out to him, or to make things at all easier for him.
However, it seems that you (and a lot of other responders here) are assuming that just because he didn't handle his vague feint at an apology perfectly means that he doesn't care and hasn't learned anything and _can't_ learn anything and will never be a good friend.
I don't think you know that about him, and I do think that if you wanted to be the kind of people that make the world a kinder place, and IF you have the time and patience for it, you could do a tiny bit more to find out what's really going on here.
posted by amtho at 10:40 AM on July 19, 2015
You and your husband are not obligated to help Adam, or to reach out to him, or to make things at all easier for him.
However, it seems that you (and a lot of other responders here) are assuming that just because he didn't handle his vague feint at an apology perfectly means that he doesn't care and hasn't learned anything and _can't_ learn anything and will never be a good friend.
I don't think you know that about him, and I do think that if you wanted to be the kind of people that make the world a kinder place, and IF you have the time and patience for it, you could do a tiny bit more to find out what's really going on here.
posted by amtho at 10:40 AM on July 19, 2015
Your husband is not particularly interested in resuming the friendship. It's not possible to know if Adam's wife texted on her own, or was prompted by Adam. It would be polite to text back saying something like, This is between Husband and Adam and I prefer not to get in the middle of it. I hope you are well. which leaves it exactly where it was. Adam may be an unrepentant jerk, and/or a clueless git, and/or whatever. But Adam is a grownup, and it's up to him to deal with his grownup friendships.
If Husband wanted to resume the friendship, he could assume that Adam didn't read/ understand the directions, a not-uncommon thing, and text Adam saying Dude, if you want to talk it out, you have to pick up the phone.
posted by theora55 at 10:54 AM on July 19, 2015
If Husband wanted to resume the friendship, he could assume that Adam didn't read/ understand the directions, a not-uncommon thing, and text Adam saying Dude, if you want to talk it out, you have to pick up the phone.
posted by theora55 at 10:54 AM on July 19, 2015
If you don't feel like ignoring her, you can always Say you hope she is well, but that you really don't think it's appropriate for you to get involved.
(You don't have to mention anything about how discopolo is weirded out by the idea of ex-friend's wife willingly acting the part of mom after a playdate gone wrong, but I guess that speaks to how embarrassingly immature ex-friend is. Dang. Your husband has clearly outgrown this friendship. My God.)
posted by discopolo at 10:55 AM on July 19, 2015
(You don't have to mention anything about how discopolo is weirded out by the idea of ex-friend's wife willingly acting the part of mom after a playdate gone wrong, but I guess that speaks to how embarrassingly immature ex-friend is. Dang. Your husband has clearly outgrown this friendship. My God.)
posted by discopolo at 10:55 AM on July 19, 2015
This:
Adam immediately responded by text (verbatim): "Absolutely. I'm very confused by the whole thing and need to know what happened. Suddenly I lost one of my best friends. I'm sure everyone on that trip has their own version of what happened and I want to hear yours and make sure I understand how you feel. I don't want to lose 15 years of friendship."
Flies in the face of this:
lest anyone think my husband is being overly sensitive about this, he later found out that unbeknownst to him, one of the other guys actually pulled Adam aside on the trip and demanded he stop treating my husband like shit and ruining the trip for the rest of the.
... one of the other 2 former "trip guys" and his wife (who are not fans of Adam anymore, either, for their own separate, valid reasons)
How can he text confusion when he was called out on his behavior in the actual trip? Well this next comment of his reveals how, he simply does not want to have to face himself:
Whatever happened in [trip State] should be a thing of the past and we should resume our former ways (I can't imagine Adam's behavior sprang forth newborn on that last trip).
I went on a trip with the guys where I put myself in Adam's place. I acted selfishly, petulantly and unfairly (and did this arrogantly) with one of the trip members I had made an agreement with regarding travel arrangements. Whether I was right or wrong about the agreement I let the man down. He no longer wanted anything to do with me on subsequent outings. I reflected on my behavior and in due time I presented myself at his door and citing a Chinese proverb about forgiveness apologized for my bad behavior and asked to restore our friendship. He sent me packing. Later he called and told me his wife believed I had done a stand up thing. He and I became best buds after that till they moved clear across the country and I lost touch. My point is that nothing you have communicated about Adam's behavior indicates he has any inclination to accept responsibility for his own actions.
I had a conflict with my sister. In a phone conversation with my brother he said he did not care to triangulate our relationships. In other words, since he was not a party to the issue he did not want to be dragged into one side or the other.
Neither Adam's wife nor you are parties to the conflict, although it seems clear you are both intimates of your mates life concerns. This does not make either of you responsible to engage with their relationship. Adam's wife has. It appears she is hoping to find a fix for her Hubby's "sadness". You are not that fix. You cannot control, enable, or even commiserate about this. With that said I would say be the bigger person. Do respond to her. If you choose to acknowledge the feeling (listening is a powerful communication) I'd say do so in only a very general sense. Just state that loss does result in painful feelings. Then own your role as in no role at all. Tell her in the first person that you are not involved in your husband's and Adam's relationship. As others have said they have to work it out. I would not tell her that your husband has moved on. Then only if this is what you want tell her that you would like to know how the pregnancy goes.
posted by Jim_Jam at 11:02 AM on July 19, 2015
Adam immediately responded by text (verbatim): "Absolutely. I'm very confused by the whole thing and need to know what happened. Suddenly I lost one of my best friends. I'm sure everyone on that trip has their own version of what happened and I want to hear yours and make sure I understand how you feel. I don't want to lose 15 years of friendship."
Flies in the face of this:
lest anyone think my husband is being overly sensitive about this, he later found out that unbeknownst to him, one of the other guys actually pulled Adam aside on the trip and demanded he stop treating my husband like shit and ruining the trip for the rest of the.
... one of the other 2 former "trip guys" and his wife (who are not fans of Adam anymore, either, for their own separate, valid reasons)
How can he text confusion when he was called out on his behavior in the actual trip? Well this next comment of his reveals how, he simply does not want to have to face himself:
Whatever happened in [trip State] should be a thing of the past and we should resume our former ways (I can't imagine Adam's behavior sprang forth newborn on that last trip).
I went on a trip with the guys where I put myself in Adam's place. I acted selfishly, petulantly and unfairly (and did this arrogantly) with one of the trip members I had made an agreement with regarding travel arrangements. Whether I was right or wrong about the agreement I let the man down. He no longer wanted anything to do with me on subsequent outings. I reflected on my behavior and in due time I presented myself at his door and citing a Chinese proverb about forgiveness apologized for my bad behavior and asked to restore our friendship. He sent me packing. Later he called and told me his wife believed I had done a stand up thing. He and I became best buds after that till they moved clear across the country and I lost touch. My point is that nothing you have communicated about Adam's behavior indicates he has any inclination to accept responsibility for his own actions.
I had a conflict with my sister. In a phone conversation with my brother he said he did not care to triangulate our relationships. In other words, since he was not a party to the issue he did not want to be dragged into one side or the other.
Neither Adam's wife nor you are parties to the conflict, although it seems clear you are both intimates of your mates life concerns. This does not make either of you responsible to engage with their relationship. Adam's wife has. It appears she is hoping to find a fix for her Hubby's "sadness". You are not that fix. You cannot control, enable, or even commiserate about this. With that said I would say be the bigger person. Do respond to her. If you choose to acknowledge the feeling (listening is a powerful communication) I'd say do so in only a very general sense. Just state that loss does result in painful feelings. Then own your role as in no role at all. Tell her in the first person that you are not involved in your husband's and Adam's relationship. As others have said they have to work it out. I would not tell her that your husband has moved on. Then only if this is what you want tell her that you would like to know how the pregnancy goes.
posted by Jim_Jam at 11:02 AM on July 19, 2015
Some shit done by a person cannot be repaired. It's completely up to the husbands to take whatever step either one feels appropriate. You can ignore this. It might not even be good for your own relationship with your husband to initiate anything. Good luck!
posted by hz37 at 11:15 AM on July 19, 2015
posted by hz37 at 11:15 AM on July 19, 2015
Everyone's right, it's pretty clear that Adam wants to be friends again, and may even have learned something, may even be careful not to make the same mistake going forward. But he refuses to just stand up and say it. He wants it to be understood without having to be uncomfortable.
You should probably do what everyone says, a breezy "Yeah, that is sad, well, shit happens" non-engagement. I'd be a little tempted to be a little more explicit, though. "[husband] isn't sure Adam gets the problem. If that bothers Adam, he knows how to use a telephone. Congrats on the baby, hope you're well!"
I wouldn't do that without [husband]'s blessing, though. And in any case, that's YOUR last text on the subject. You're not the mediator.
posted by ctmf at 11:46 AM on July 19, 2015
You should probably do what everyone says, a breezy "Yeah, that is sad, well, shit happens" non-engagement. I'd be a little tempted to be a little more explicit, though. "[husband] isn't sure Adam gets the problem. If that bothers Adam, he knows how to use a telephone. Congrats on the baby, hope you're well!"
I wouldn't do that without [husband]'s blessing, though. And in any case, that's YOUR last text on the subject. You're not the mediator.
posted by ctmf at 11:46 AM on July 19, 2015
I don't think it's sound to assume that Adam's wife is trying to manipulate you and your husband -- she might just have stepped into an awkward situation. I'd certainly give her the benefit of the doubt. You live two time zones away, weren't close friends with her, and since her version of events is likely to have only come from Adam it's very plausible to believe that something like this conversation occurred:
On the other hand, these people live several time zones away, are not part of your family or your daily life, and there seems to be little incentive for your husband to preserve his problematic friendship with this person. Let things drop without burning any bridges and spend the time instead with the other more rewarding people in your life.
posted by Nerd of the North at 11:52 AM on July 19, 2015
Her: "Boy, Honey, it seems like it's been a long time since we spoke to Anne and Bob.."That might be literally as much useful information as she has on the topic. So give her the benefit of the doubt.
Him: "Yeah, I know."
Her: "Why is that?"
Him: "Bob got all bent out of shape about some stuff on that last trip we took. Now he never calls any more."
On the other hand, these people live several time zones away, are not part of your family or your daily life, and there seems to be little incentive for your husband to preserve his problematic friendship with this person. Let things drop without burning any bridges and spend the time instead with the other more rewarding people in your life.
posted by Nerd of the North at 11:52 AM on July 19, 2015
"It's sad that our husbands don't talk anymore. I know [Adam] misses your husband."
"John is an adult. I don't supervise or manage his friendships. Can't help you there!"
This is a reply I have actually sent, more than once.
posted by DarlingBri at 12:00 PM on July 19, 2015
"John is an adult. I don't supervise or manage his friendships. Can't help you there!"
This is a reply I have actually sent, more than once.
posted by DarlingBri at 12:00 PM on July 19, 2015
It's hard to tell whether Adam wants the friendship back, or the "friendship services", including the fun annual trip.
posted by puddledork at 12:19 PM on July 19, 2015
posted by puddledork at 12:19 PM on July 19, 2015
Adam and his wife give me a headache. Ignore both of them.
posted by crw at 12:26 PM on July 19, 2015
posted by crw at 12:26 PM on July 19, 2015
It's hard to tell whether Adam wants the friendship back, or the "friendship services", including the fun annual trip.
Or even just misses the "good old days" when they were all friends, not specifically any one person. It's normal at that phase of life, and the wife may be misreading that and trying to do something about individual cases to cheer up Adam. She may have instigated Adam texting the husband, just trying to help. But life moves on, and we all have our regrets. You can't fix them all.
posted by ctmf at 1:24 PM on July 19, 2015
Or even just misses the "good old days" when they were all friends, not specifically any one person. It's normal at that phase of life, and the wife may be misreading that and trying to do something about individual cases to cheer up Adam. She may have instigated Adam texting the husband, just trying to help. But life moves on, and we all have our regrets. You can't fix them all.
posted by ctmf at 1:24 PM on July 19, 2015
If you don't want to become part of this, then don't become part of it. Any kind of text back about Adam and your husband will mean you become part of it. Wishing her well on the pregnancy or asking when she's due, or whatever thing you can send that is relevant to the minimal connection you have with her, would enable you to respond to the text and also subtly get the message across that you're not going to be drawn in to this. Perhaps something along the lines of "I hope the pregnancy goes well for you all, good luck", or something equally vague.
Adam and your hubby are both grown adults. It's on the two of them to sort things out between themselves. But it doesn't sound like your husband wants to sort things out and is fine with not having Adam as a friend again. In that case, doubly don't send anything back about either your husband or Adam.
Most everyone wants to be the hero of their own story. I'd guess that Adam has rewritten the entire incident in his own mind to be something very different to what actually happened. I had to get rid of a friend once, after telling them on three separate occasions that their use of a slur was really offensive to me. When they last contacted me, they claimed to have no idea of what had happened. After three times of being told. Denial is a powerful thing.
If Adam wants things fixed, then it's on him to fix them. He can put some effort in to contacting your husband and chatting about what went wrong. If he doesn't do that, then he obviously doesn't care enough.
posted by Solomon at 1:41 PM on July 19, 2015
Adam and your hubby are both grown adults. It's on the two of them to sort things out between themselves. But it doesn't sound like your husband wants to sort things out and is fine with not having Adam as a friend again. In that case, doubly don't send anything back about either your husband or Adam.
Most everyone wants to be the hero of their own story. I'd guess that Adam has rewritten the entire incident in his own mind to be something very different to what actually happened. I had to get rid of a friend once, after telling them on three separate occasions that their use of a slur was really offensive to me. When they last contacted me, they claimed to have no idea of what had happened. After three times of being told. Denial is a powerful thing.
If Adam wants things fixed, then it's on him to fix them. He can put some effort in to contacting your husband and chatting about what went wrong. If he doesn't do that, then he obviously doesn't care enough.
posted by Solomon at 1:41 PM on July 19, 2015
I wouldn't judge her too harshly and assume she's trying to manipulate you. She's stating the obvious. It is sad when a longtime friendship ends. How and why it ended doesn't change that. Whether or not it needed to end doesn't change that - it's sad.
What she's hoping to accomish by stating the obvious is anyone's guess. I'm thinking:
Door #1: She likes you and is bummed the husbands have made it harder for her to be your friend. This stating the obvious thing being an entryway, a "Hey, let's commiserate about this sad thing we have in common."
All you have to do here is decide if like her enough to see if a friendship is possible.
Door #2: She's just plain ole curious about what happened. If Adam is as lacking in self-insight as you say he's not going to be able to tell his wife what went wrong anymore than he can tell your husband. I'd be curious too, it would take more than a wee bit of effort to not pry.
I don't see what good could come of this.
Door #3: She testing husband's interest in repairing the friendship on behalf of Adam. In this scenario he's not willing to deal with husband directly and is co-opting wife to send his feelers out for him. She's either okay with this and willing to do it or isn't swift enough to pick up on it.
You won't know why she said what she said without engaging her to some degree.
If you think a polite response is in order something like "It is sad. What they decide to do about that is up to them" and see what she does with it.
posted by space_cookie at 2:14 PM on July 19, 2015
What she's hoping to accomish by stating the obvious is anyone's guess. I'm thinking:
Door #1: She likes you and is bummed the husbands have made it harder for her to be your friend. This stating the obvious thing being an entryway, a "Hey, let's commiserate about this sad thing we have in common."
All you have to do here is decide if like her enough to see if a friendship is possible.
Door #2: She's just plain ole curious about what happened. If Adam is as lacking in self-insight as you say he's not going to be able to tell his wife what went wrong anymore than he can tell your husband. I'd be curious too, it would take more than a wee bit of effort to not pry.
I don't see what good could come of this.
Door #3: She testing husband's interest in repairing the friendship on behalf of Adam. In this scenario he's not willing to deal with husband directly and is co-opting wife to send his feelers out for him. She's either okay with this and willing to do it or isn't swift enough to pick up on it.
You won't know why she said what she said without engaging her to some degree.
If you think a polite response is in order something like "It is sad. What they decide to do about that is up to them" and see what she does with it.
posted by space_cookie at 2:14 PM on July 19, 2015
I can easily imagine that this Adam wasn't sure what the next move should be, and so he put his wife up to texting you, hoping that would get the ball rolling. If that's all there were to it, I wouldn't think it was unreasonable.
But it sounds like this Adam was a straight-up jerk, and I suspect that whether or not he wants to rekindle the friendship, he really wants to be let off the hook: not to be forgiven so much as to be told "it wasn't a big deal." He doesn't want to think that other people think he's a jerk. And that puts things in a different light. If he's fishing for some kind of exoneration, neither you nor your husband need to go out of your way to give it to him.
posted by adamrice at 3:03 PM on July 19, 2015
But it sounds like this Adam was a straight-up jerk, and I suspect that whether or not he wants to rekindle the friendship, he really wants to be let off the hook: not to be forgiven so much as to be told "it wasn't a big deal." He doesn't want to think that other people think he's a jerk. And that puts things in a different light. If he's fishing for some kind of exoneration, neither you nor your husband need to go out of your way to give it to him.
posted by adamrice at 3:03 PM on July 19, 2015
There is so much speculation and interpretation on all sides here and it bums me out. "Adam totally knows what he did," "Adams wife is being a drama llama b/c clearly her motivations are X."
Adam did some fucked up things and clearly doesn't get it. Apparently someone tried to tell him on the trip but we don't know the content not character of that conversation.
The only way to be sure he understands what happened is for your husband to tell him.
Maybe it was so bad that no contact is the way to go. That sucks but can happen.
But basing your actions on "he should know" is bunk. It's the same logic that sinks romantic relationships: "you should know what I want," "you should already know why what you said hurt me."
We're not psychic, we can be obtuse or drunk or prideful, we can hide from our needs and hide from our fears.
If your husband reflects fondly on Adam from before the Trip, it might be worth it to extend a hand. Maybe write it in an email: here's all the things that you did that made me so angry.
Then you know that he knows and his response to THAT I think is the true measure of his character.
posted by wemayfreeze at 3:31 PM on July 19, 2015
Adam did some fucked up things and clearly doesn't get it. Apparently someone tried to tell him on the trip but we don't know the content not character of that conversation.
The only way to be sure he understands what happened is for your husband to tell him.
Maybe it was so bad that no contact is the way to go. That sucks but can happen.
But basing your actions on "he should know" is bunk. It's the same logic that sinks romantic relationships: "you should know what I want," "you should already know why what you said hurt me."
We're not psychic, we can be obtuse or drunk or prideful, we can hide from our needs and hide from our fears.
If your husband reflects fondly on Adam from before the Trip, it might be worth it to extend a hand. Maybe write it in an email: here's all the things that you did that made me so angry.
Then you know that he knows and his response to THAT I think is the true measure of his character.
posted by wemayfreeze at 3:31 PM on July 19, 2015
I agree with wemayfreeze. Your husband doesn't have to extend an olive leaf, but it certainly doesn't help to sit around making negative assumptions about them. It's also uncharitable to assume the wife is operating as Adam's puppet and trying to manipulate OP's husband via OP, when it could also just be Door #1.
posted by salvia at 3:38 PM on July 19, 2015
posted by salvia at 3:38 PM on July 19, 2015
Nth'ing the suggestions by other people to ignore this and move on. There appears to be abundant evidence that Adam treated your husband badly, and that he is generally not the best kind of person anyway. Life's too short to waste on people like Adam.
posted by StrawberryPie at 5:44 PM on July 19, 2015
posted by StrawberryPie at 5:44 PM on July 19, 2015
Thank you for the fantastic answers here, especially the very insightful ones from Etrigan, nadawi, SpacemanStix, and Jim_Jam, demonstrating some remarkably spot-on, nuanced understandings of the personality dynamics at play here, and recognizing that my husband (who has had a year to think about this and definitely does not miss Adam) absolutely does not want to resume a close friendship with Adam, and again - I didn't want to get involved, nor am I friends at all with Adam's wife. Nor has she ever before shown an interest in communicating with me 1:1 personally... until today, but that doesn't really matter -- I'll assume she means well, maybe has a touch of the Geek Social Fallacies thing going on, and Adam probably hasn't told her anything approaching the truth about what happened.
I decided to Ignore, and not respond. But a few hours after her "It's sad..." text, Adam's wife sent me a follow-up text: "Just between you and me, this is really breaking [Adam]'s heart." No, Adam's wife, no. Enough already. So I felt the need to nip this in the bud immediately by using LobsterMitten's excellent script in my reply: "Yeah, it's one of those things. If [Adam] wants to talk to [Husband], he should give him a call, texting isn't great for working things out." Then I blocked her everywheres. And you know what? I feel great relief about the way I handled it, thanks to these amazing answers, which has had the unexpected side effect of my husband feeling even more certain that he made the exact right choice last year to stop being close friends with Adam. Thanks again, wonderful MeFites!
posted by hush at 5:49 PM on July 19, 2015
I decided to Ignore, and not respond. But a few hours after her "It's sad..." text, Adam's wife sent me a follow-up text: "Just between you and me, this is really breaking [Adam]'s heart." No, Adam's wife, no. Enough already. So I felt the need to nip this in the bud immediately by using LobsterMitten's excellent script in my reply: "Yeah, it's one of those things. If [Adam] wants to talk to [Husband], he should give him a call, texting isn't great for working things out." Then I blocked her everywheres. And you know what? I feel great relief about the way I handled it, thanks to these amazing answers, which has had the unexpected side effect of my husband feeling even more certain that he made the exact right choice last year to stop being close friends with Adam. Thanks again, wonderful MeFites!
posted by hush at 5:49 PM on July 19, 2015
I've been thinking about this since I read it. Glad you got things sorted out.
posted by Solomon at 1:26 AM on July 20, 2015
posted by Solomon at 1:26 AM on July 20, 2015
Adam's wife emailed me on my work email: "Communication is a two way street. I know [Adam] feels that he has reached out to no avail. It is between [Husband] and [Adam], but it doesn't make sense to me to let such a long friendship just end." Wow. Will continue to IGNORE, of course, and the kind IT folks at my employer have made sure I've got her blocked there now, too. Thanks again for the amazing answers, MeFites!!
posted by hush at 1:52 PM on July 21, 2015
posted by hush at 1:52 PM on July 21, 2015
Oh my. Hassling you on your WORK email is taking things way too far.
posted by Solomon at 2:03 PM on July 21, 2015
posted by Solomon at 2:03 PM on July 21, 2015
Adam sounds like an ex (friend and partner) of mine. Misses the fun times, but can't be bothered to actually do any emotional lifting to right wrongs. After the final straw, I (FINALLY) went no contact, and in the first few years her attempts to repair things consisted of things like including me in group emails that didn't actually address me in any fashion (and that, and I quote, were "attempts to restart communication that you didn't take") and finding me on Facebook and sending a "I'm sorry for whatever I did," can we just go back to being friends non-apology. I chewed on that for several days, then replied, explaining that my decision to go no contact wasn't taken lightly, and that a "I'm sorry for whatever" wasn't exactly the kind of response I was hoping for if she wanted to actually mend things. Her reply, boiled down, was "omg, why can't you just be cool and put this behind you??"
Yeah - no. Back to no contact. (though that hasn't stopped her from tagging me in the occasional post in her passive way of trying to get me to talk to her again)
As for this?
Adam's wife emailed me on my work email: "Communication is a two way street. I know [Adam] feels that he has reached out to no avail. It is between [Husband] and [Adam], but it doesn't make sense to me to let such a long friendship just end."
I'd be tempted to respond by simply repeating yourself. " If [Adam] wants to talk to [Husband], he should give him a call, texting isn't great for working things out."
posted by adamp88 at 7:23 AM on July 22, 2015
Yeah - no. Back to no contact. (though that hasn't stopped her from tagging me in the occasional post in her passive way of trying to get me to talk to her again)
As for this?
Adam's wife emailed me on my work email: "Communication is a two way street. I know [Adam] feels that he has reached out to no avail. It is between [Husband] and [Adam], but it doesn't make sense to me to let such a long friendship just end."
I'd be tempted to respond by simply repeating yourself. " If [Adam] wants to talk to [Husband], he should give him a call, texting isn't great for working things out."
posted by adamp88 at 7:23 AM on July 22, 2015
This thread is closed to new comments.
posted by murrey at 9:01 AM on July 19, 2015