How should I deal with possibly manipulative catastrophizing?
June 30, 2015 10:34 AM Subscribe
How do I respond to "I just have to accept [exaggerated outcome that neither of us want]"?
My significant other has a frustrating pattern, which I will try to represent as fairly as I can:
Example #1:
SO: Let's ride bikes to [somewhere].
Me: I'd rather not, because [traffic, weather, whatever]. Let's get there another way, or let's ride bikes somewhere else.
(SO becomes upset.)
Me: Why are you upset?
SO: I'm just accepting that we're never going to ride bikes together.
Example #2:
(Discussing sleeping arrangements; more than half the time I sleep in another room because we both snore and I have trouble falling asleep.)
Me: Sorry I slept in the other room last night, I couldn't find my earplugs.
SO: [becoming upset] I just have to accept that we can't sleep in the same bed.
To me, this seems like catastrophizing, and it really does not feel good when it's directed at me. It feels like an attempt at a guilt trip. Fortunately, this doesn't happen very often, and it's not representative of SO's usual demeanor and approach to conversation.
However, when challenged on this tactic, or if I try to stop the conversation, my SO gets very angry. Like, bewilderingly out-of-character angry.
We have been in counseling for about a year, which has helped our relationship in a lot of ways, but the first time I tried to address this in session it was not successful. I will keep trying though.
I'm committed to this relationship and I'm not interested in suggestions to end it. But I'd like to know if I'm rightly perceiving a manipulative pattern here, and what can I do to deal with it?
My significant other has a frustrating pattern, which I will try to represent as fairly as I can:
Example #1:
SO: Let's ride bikes to [somewhere].
Me: I'd rather not, because [traffic, weather, whatever]. Let's get there another way, or let's ride bikes somewhere else.
(SO becomes upset.)
Me: Why are you upset?
SO: I'm just accepting that we're never going to ride bikes together.
Example #2:
(Discussing sleeping arrangements; more than half the time I sleep in another room because we both snore and I have trouble falling asleep.)
Me: Sorry I slept in the other room last night, I couldn't find my earplugs.
SO: [becoming upset] I just have to accept that we can't sleep in the same bed.
To me, this seems like catastrophizing, and it really does not feel good when it's directed at me. It feels like an attempt at a guilt trip. Fortunately, this doesn't happen very often, and it's not representative of SO's usual demeanor and approach to conversation.
However, when challenged on this tactic, or if I try to stop the conversation, my SO gets very angry. Like, bewilderingly out-of-character angry.
We have been in counseling for about a year, which has helped our relationship in a lot of ways, but the first time I tried to address this in session it was not successful. I will keep trying though.
I'm committed to this relationship and I'm not interested in suggestions to end it. But I'd like to know if I'm rightly perceiving a manipulative pattern here, and what can I do to deal with it?
This is very weird and unpleasant, and it's definitely possible that it's a guilt trip/intentionally manipulative, but catastrophizing like this is also typical of depression. Rather than trying to manipulate you by saying exaggerated things, your SO might honestly be experiencing an everything-is-terrible depressive crash.
This would also explain the extreme defensiveness when asked about it -- for a person with depression who hasn't come to terms with it, it can be very hard, in more okay moments, to accept the irrationality you experience at less okay ones. Hard even to understand what on earth was going on with you at that moment. Does your SO have any other symptoms of depression?
posted by ostro at 10:49 AM on June 30, 2015 [12 favorites]
This would also explain the extreme defensiveness when asked about it -- for a person with depression who hasn't come to terms with it, it can be very hard, in more okay moments, to accept the irrationality you experience at less okay ones. Hard even to understand what on earth was going on with you at that moment. Does your SO have any other symptoms of depression?
posted by ostro at 10:49 AM on June 30, 2015 [12 favorites]
The distinction I'd make is: in a relationship, we each get to identify our needs, and get them met. We compromise. However, this sounds like SO getting SO's way all the time.
It is manipulative to hold catastrophe out as YOUR FAULT all the time. It is a guilt trip. It is also SO not recognizing that you too have valid needs, and deserve to get your needs met too.
I'd be tempted to respond with "do you think there's a middle ground?" and a raised eyebrow, but I can be a sarcastic wench. You might try something like "what do you need (to feel ok) here?"
getting this off my chest: this sounds like my narcissistic mother. i swear i can hear her saying "i just have to accept ... ".
posted by Dashy at 10:49 AM on June 30, 2015 [4 favorites]
It is manipulative to hold catastrophe out as YOUR FAULT all the time. It is a guilt trip. It is also SO not recognizing that you too have valid needs, and deserve to get your needs met too.
I'd be tempted to respond with "do you think there's a middle ground?" and a raised eyebrow, but I can be a sarcastic wench. You might try something like "what do you need (to feel ok) here?"
getting this off my chest: this sounds like my narcissistic mother. i swear i can hear her saying "i just have to accept ... ".
posted by Dashy at 10:49 AM on June 30, 2015 [4 favorites]
Getting "bewilderingly out-of-character angry" at trying to resolve this is definitely manipulative, yeah. Whether intentionally manipulative or not is another question that I don't think anyone here can answer, but forcing a conversation to go your way (even when "your way" is literally the opposite of the way you'd prefer it to go) is not a tactic conducive to discussion and/or a fair compromise.
posted by griphus at 10:49 AM on June 30, 2015 [5 favorites]
posted by griphus at 10:49 AM on June 30, 2015 [5 favorites]
Fortunately, this doesn't happen very often, and it's not representative of SO's usual demeanor and approach to conversation.
It's infrequent, ok - but does this happen exclusively in relation to plans or behaviours involving you, or does he sometimes talk this way about things that only affect him?
posted by cotton dress sock at 10:49 AM on June 30, 2015 [1 favorite]
It's infrequent, ok - but does this happen exclusively in relation to plans or behaviours involving you, or does he sometimes talk this way about things that only affect him?
posted by cotton dress sock at 10:49 AM on June 30, 2015 [1 favorite]
"OK."
Not snidely or sarcastically. Just accept that it's their reality for right now.
posted by jaguar at 10:56 AM on June 30, 2015 [7 favorites]
Not snidely or sarcastically. Just accept that it's their reality for right now.
posted by jaguar at 10:56 AM on June 30, 2015 [7 favorites]
I've been your partner. I agree with asockpuppet. How often do you actually go on a bike ride? Do you snuggle frequently? It's not catastrophizing if it's been a year since you guys went out together or you don't sleep together very often. It's reality.
Instead of blaming your partner (by calling them manipulative), why not try to see their point of view and meet their needs? Propose an alternate bike ride that doesn't have traffic or weather problems. Propose a hike instead. Try wearing an anti-snore device. Take a nap together in the middle of the day on a weekend and cuddle up.
You don't sound like you're really trying to solve these problems, and that makes me worry about your relationship.
posted by 3491again at 11:05 AM on June 30, 2015 [25 favorites]
Instead of blaming your partner (by calling them manipulative), why not try to see their point of view and meet their needs? Propose an alternate bike ride that doesn't have traffic or weather problems. Propose a hike instead. Try wearing an anti-snore device. Take a nap together in the middle of the day on a weekend and cuddle up.
You don't sound like you're really trying to solve these problems, and that makes me worry about your relationship.
posted by 3491again at 11:05 AM on June 30, 2015 [25 favorites]
I'd say, "Hmm, I didn't say that we'd never do ____ again. Why are you saying that as if it's a fact?"
Then if they get belligerent, I'd say, "If you have unmet needs, talking in hyperbole doesn't help me understand where you're coming from. In fact, it makes me want to disengage from the conversation because it doesn't make me feel like we're talking as loving partners. I understand that _____ is important to you and it's important to me too. Can we find a compromise?"
Otherwise I'd be like, "What you just said is patently untrue and not constructive behavior for someone in a relationship. Please do not twist my words just because the outcome of a conversation isn't what you want. You know full well that you're jumping to some major conclusions and catastrophizing and that's not fair to either of us."
posted by Hermione Granger at 11:14 AM on June 30, 2015 [5 favorites]
Then if they get belligerent, I'd say, "If you have unmet needs, talking in hyperbole doesn't help me understand where you're coming from. In fact, it makes me want to disengage from the conversation because it doesn't make me feel like we're talking as loving partners. I understand that _____ is important to you and it's important to me too. Can we find a compromise?"
Otherwise I'd be like, "What you just said is patently untrue and not constructive behavior for someone in a relationship. Please do not twist my words just because the outcome of a conversation isn't what you want. You know full well that you're jumping to some major conclusions and catastrophizing and that's not fair to either of us."
posted by Hermione Granger at 11:14 AM on June 30, 2015 [5 favorites]
Sometimes therapists call this "black and white thinking" and it can be characteristic of depression, or mild OCD, or just negative behavior patterns developed in childhood.
My husband is prone to this sort of catastrophizing, and one of the things we realized about our particular marriage is that he was a very indulged only child while I was one of several children in a large family. So to him, if he says, "Let's go for a walk," and I say, "Not now, I have to run an errand," that feels like a rejection. Whereas to me, that's obviously the beginning of a negotiation where we all align schedules and activities among multiple people. Saying to my mom, "I want to go to the park," was always the beginning of a negotiation like, "If you can walk the dog right now while I do the dishes, and then you come with me on my errand to the dry cleaner, I think we can spend half an hour at the park near the dry cleaner before I have to pick up your sister at dance class." (To me it is a crazy delightful indulgence when I go, "Let's go to the movies right now" and we go RIGHT NOW because it means blowing off the zillion other tasks you have planned in advance.)
Once we realized this, our conversations became more like, "I'd like to go for a walk," "I'd love to, but I have two errands to run before the bank closes at 5. Can we go for a walk at, like, 5:15?" "Here, I'll go to the grocery store while you go to the bank, so you can finish more quickly and we can walk before it rains." or "I'll just tag along, I just want to spend some times with you, errands is fine." He consciously checks himself when he feels old childhood feelings of rejection and reminds himself that I'm not saying "no," I'm just saying "not this instant." And I consciously remind myself that not everything has to be optimized for efficiency all the time, I can sometimes let things be a little disorganized or inefficient for the sake of making other people happy. And, importantly, we both try to vocalize more of our internal thoughts since we think about these things so differently -- I make a point to say I DO want to walk, but that I have these errands that can't be put off, or that I DO want to go out to dinner but the weather is so miserable I'd rather do it another night, or that I DON'T actually want to do X but if it's important to him, I will.
It's not magic or anything, I remain totally aggravated by his apparent inability to plan things in advance and optimize them for efficiency (I exaggerate ... slightly), but we fight about "you NEVER want to go on bike rides!" a lot less since we realized there were different communication and planning strategies in play. Why does he read a single instance of event X as being a statement about X FOREVER? If you can figure that out, that'll help you understand what he's really saying when he says "WELL I GUESS THEN X FOREVER, SADFACE."
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 11:26 AM on June 30, 2015 [63 favorites]
My husband is prone to this sort of catastrophizing, and one of the things we realized about our particular marriage is that he was a very indulged only child while I was one of several children in a large family. So to him, if he says, "Let's go for a walk," and I say, "Not now, I have to run an errand," that feels like a rejection. Whereas to me, that's obviously the beginning of a negotiation where we all align schedules and activities among multiple people. Saying to my mom, "I want to go to the park," was always the beginning of a negotiation like, "If you can walk the dog right now while I do the dishes, and then you come with me on my errand to the dry cleaner, I think we can spend half an hour at the park near the dry cleaner before I have to pick up your sister at dance class." (To me it is a crazy delightful indulgence when I go, "Let's go to the movies right now" and we go RIGHT NOW because it means blowing off the zillion other tasks you have planned in advance.)
Once we realized this, our conversations became more like, "I'd like to go for a walk," "I'd love to, but I have two errands to run before the bank closes at 5. Can we go for a walk at, like, 5:15?" "Here, I'll go to the grocery store while you go to the bank, so you can finish more quickly and we can walk before it rains." or "I'll just tag along, I just want to spend some times with you, errands is fine." He consciously checks himself when he feels old childhood feelings of rejection and reminds himself that I'm not saying "no," I'm just saying "not this instant." And I consciously remind myself that not everything has to be optimized for efficiency all the time, I can sometimes let things be a little disorganized or inefficient for the sake of making other people happy. And, importantly, we both try to vocalize more of our internal thoughts since we think about these things so differently -- I make a point to say I DO want to walk, but that I have these errands that can't be put off, or that I DO want to go out to dinner but the weather is so miserable I'd rather do it another night, or that I DON'T actually want to do X but if it's important to him, I will.
It's not magic or anything, I remain totally aggravated by his apparent inability to plan things in advance and optimize them for efficiency (I exaggerate ... slightly), but we fight about "you NEVER want to go on bike rides!" a lot less since we realized there were different communication and planning strategies in play. Why does he read a single instance of event X as being a statement about X FOREVER? If you can figure that out, that'll help you understand what he's really saying when he says "WELL I GUESS THEN X FOREVER, SADFACE."
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 11:26 AM on June 30, 2015 [63 favorites]
Doesn't sound manipulative per se, just sounds like an immature way of expressing hurt feelings and buried fears/associations. I've done this & my partner has done this.
How we respond to each other is some combination of
- "honey, that's a total exaggeration"
- "wow sounds like that means a lot to you. How about we still $dowhatiwant but $incorporatewhatmakesyouhappy"
- "OK I guess we will never ride a bike again, let's sell our bikes on craigslist right now" [then we both laugh]
The fact that it makes your partner SO angry when you challenge it means it's not about the bike ride, it's about something else. It's what the bike ride represents. So you need to open up that conversation: "wow this sounds really important to you, why is it so upsetting to you?"
I've found digging into instances when me or my partner is being particularly stubborn/hurt/angry has been very revealing and helped us understand each other more. They are not easy or short conversations by any stretch. It can take 1-2h to calm down, unpack, be vulnerable, recongize & support each other, but the conversation is well worth it. The trick is not to immediately cast your partner as "the jerk" in the situation, but a legitimate person with legitimate fears and worries, even if they make zero sense to you. You didn't live their life, you don't have their associations, this is one of those cases where your values don't line up which is why there's a conflict. It's challenging to see and understand someone's value that you don't share, but hey that's where the rubber hits the road so they say.
posted by St. Peepsburg at 11:30 AM on June 30, 2015 [4 favorites]
How we respond to each other is some combination of
- "honey, that's a total exaggeration"
- "wow sounds like that means a lot to you. How about we still $dowhatiwant but $incorporatewhatmakesyouhappy"
- "OK I guess we will never ride a bike again, let's sell our bikes on craigslist right now" [then we both laugh]
The fact that it makes your partner SO angry when you challenge it means it's not about the bike ride, it's about something else. It's what the bike ride represents. So you need to open up that conversation: "wow this sounds really important to you, why is it so upsetting to you?"
I've found digging into instances when me or my partner is being particularly stubborn/hurt/angry has been very revealing and helped us understand each other more. They are not easy or short conversations by any stretch. It can take 1-2h to calm down, unpack, be vulnerable, recongize & support each other, but the conversation is well worth it. The trick is not to immediately cast your partner as "the jerk" in the situation, but a legitimate person with legitimate fears and worries, even if they make zero sense to you. You didn't live their life, you don't have their associations, this is one of those cases where your values don't line up which is why there's a conflict. It's challenging to see and understand someone's value that you don't share, but hey that's where the rubber hits the road so they say.
posted by St. Peepsburg at 11:30 AM on June 30, 2015 [4 favorites]
Response by poster: Wow, thanks for all the responses.
> What is your 'Yes I will do $thing' to 'No, because $excuse' ratio?
It used to be worse, getting better. This is something we've actively worked on in counseling. I resolve to be very mindful of this.
> does this happen exclusively in relation to plans or behaviours involving you, or does he sometimes talk this way about things that only affect him?
Now that you mention it, I recall it happening in a couple other situations that didn't directly involve me -- assuming a forgetful older relative has Alzheimer's (we don't know, he won't go to a doctor), or that our sick dog is going to die (she recovered).
> [questions about depression, individual treatment]
I suspect SO has some anxiety issues (has lots of trouble staying asleep, which is attributed to stressful job), and has never been in individual counseling, and isn't interested in it.
posted by scatter gather at 11:45 AM on June 30, 2015 [2 favorites]
> What is your 'Yes I will do $thing' to 'No, because $excuse' ratio?
It used to be worse, getting better. This is something we've actively worked on in counseling. I resolve to be very mindful of this.
> does this happen exclusively in relation to plans or behaviours involving you, or does he sometimes talk this way about things that only affect him?
Now that you mention it, I recall it happening in a couple other situations that didn't directly involve me -- assuming a forgetful older relative has Alzheimer's (we don't know, he won't go to a doctor), or that our sick dog is going to die (she recovered).
> [questions about depression, individual treatment]
I suspect SO has some anxiety issues (has lots of trouble staying asleep, which is attributed to stressful job), and has never been in individual counseling, and isn't interested in it.
posted by scatter gather at 11:45 AM on June 30, 2015 [2 favorites]
Just a thought, how are you challenging the assumption? If, as you say, this general pattern is rare, maybe they're just a bit cranky in general that day. So if something doesnt work out, they just need a minute to be upset about something not working out and then will move on. But a "why are you upset, especially if there's an eye roll accompanying it (not that you are doing this, just in case) is interrupting the internal dialogue and poking the bear.
posted by ghost phoneme at 11:47 AM on June 30, 2015
posted by ghost phoneme at 11:47 AM on June 30, 2015
Yeah I'm not sure this is the greatest most self-actualized way for your partner to respond, but I know that when I've been prone to similar responses, one of two things (or both) are going on:
1) I'm super, super depressed and/or
2) I am really feeling like my partner just WILL NOT make any effort. Or, more charitably, I'm afraid that despite my partner's efforts, progress is stalled.
It's also possible that what your partner is doing at this time is accepting that you won't ride bikes together right now this time, but expressing it in a frustrated, generalized way.
Finally, if your partner has a much higher tolerance for "not perfect, but it'll do" in general, too, it's possible that your reasons/excuses for not doing a thing seem a little unreasonable and as such, maybe like they're code for "I just don't want to spend that time/have that experience with you." If something like heat or traffic is really, deeply misery-making for you, make sure your partner understands that--otherwise they have no idea just what they're asking of you when they say "let's ride bikes!"
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 11:56 AM on June 30, 2015 [12 favorites]
1) I'm super, super depressed and/or
2) I am really feeling like my partner just WILL NOT make any effort. Or, more charitably, I'm afraid that despite my partner's efforts, progress is stalled.
It's also possible that what your partner is doing at this time is accepting that you won't ride bikes together right now this time, but expressing it in a frustrated, generalized way.
Finally, if your partner has a much higher tolerance for "not perfect, but it'll do" in general, too, it's possible that your reasons/excuses for not doing a thing seem a little unreasonable and as such, maybe like they're code for "I just don't want to spend that time/have that experience with you." If something like heat or traffic is really, deeply misery-making for you, make sure your partner understands that--otherwise they have no idea just what they're asking of you when they say "let's ride bikes!"
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 11:56 AM on June 30, 2015 [12 favorites]
If there are anxiety and sleep problems, they could be reinforcing each other. Is there a way they'd go for a sleep study?
The reason why I ask: I had a friend who went through life with severe anxiety and seemed prone to catastrophizing, like a meltdown at work because they forgot to water the plants (once) and now they will all die. They had a sleep study done for something else and wound up having severe sleep apnea (AHI over 30). They still get anxious, but the catastrophic spiraling doesn't happen. Obviously it's just one person's experience, and I'm not sure how typical it is or relevant to your situation, but may be worth investigating to see if anything else could be done to improve their sleep. Especially if you notice any pattern between catastrophizing and poor sleep.
posted by ghost phoneme at 12:05 PM on June 30, 2015 [5 favorites]
The reason why I ask: I had a friend who went through life with severe anxiety and seemed prone to catastrophizing, like a meltdown at work because they forgot to water the plants (once) and now they will all die. They had a sleep study done for something else and wound up having severe sleep apnea (AHI over 30). They still get anxious, but the catastrophic spiraling doesn't happen. Obviously it's just one person's experience, and I'm not sure how typical it is or relevant to your situation, but may be worth investigating to see if anything else could be done to improve their sleep. Especially if you notice any pattern between catastrophizing and poor sleep.
posted by ghost phoneme at 12:05 PM on June 30, 2015 [5 favorites]
Now that you mention it, I recall it happening in a couple other situations that didn't directly involve me -- assuming a forgetful older relative has Alzheimer's (we don't know, he won't go to a doctor), or that our sick dog is going to die (she recovered).
To me, this just sounds like he's got a catastrophic thinking style - more of a him thing than a relationship thing, though it of course has implications for your relationship, in the way gryphus described. So he's making impulsive, emotionally-driven leaps of logic (truths, to him) that he may feel are invalidated by counter-arguments.
I agree with jaguar that validating their feeling (which is highly persuasive, to them) helps. The way I deal with this kind of thing in a family member is the whole "yes, I understand that you're upset, that idea is upsetting" and following it up with "I see it differently - what about looking at it this way", and then there's a lot of sweat involved in socratic questioning and presenting analogies that are as vivid as I can make them.
But ultimately, it's down to them.
posted by cotton dress sock at 12:30 PM on June 30, 2015
To me, this just sounds like he's got a catastrophic thinking style - more of a him thing than a relationship thing, though it of course has implications for your relationship, in the way gryphus described. So he's making impulsive, emotionally-driven leaps of logic (truths, to him) that he may feel are invalidated by counter-arguments.
I agree with jaguar that validating their feeling (which is highly persuasive, to them) helps. The way I deal with this kind of thing in a family member is the whole "yes, I understand that you're upset, that idea is upsetting" and following it up with "I see it differently - what about looking at it this way", and then there's a lot of sweat involved in socratic questioning and presenting analogies that are as vivid as I can make them.
But ultimately, it's down to them.
posted by cotton dress sock at 12:30 PM on June 30, 2015
The weird form of reverse-gaslighting and then getting really angry when challenged, and refusing to discuss the situation in a counselling session definitely sound manipulative to me. Saying that you don't want to ride a bike today is not the same as saying that you don't ever want to ride a bike ever again. That's a bit silly, I think, to make that completely illogical leap of thought. The two things aren't the same or even similar.
If your partner gets angry when you try to point out the fact that their illogic is making you feel bad about the relationship, then that's definitely something to bring up in counselling. Getting angry at your partner is very rarely OK, especially when you're trying to make them feel better. It sounds like they're trying to guilt trip you into doing something, then doubling down and turning to anger when you're poking holes in their guilt trip or trying to end it.
It may well be that your partner is depressed. It's entirely your partner's choice as to what medical treatment they seek, or don't. But if they're not going to put the effort in to develop a more rational view of the situation and stop getting angry with you about it, then perhaps it's time to make it clear to them what the consequences of that will be.
posted by Solomon at 12:52 PM on June 30, 2015 [2 favorites]
If your partner gets angry when you try to point out the fact that their illogic is making you feel bad about the relationship, then that's definitely something to bring up in counselling. Getting angry at your partner is very rarely OK, especially when you're trying to make them feel better. It sounds like they're trying to guilt trip you into doing something, then doubling down and turning to anger when you're poking holes in their guilt trip or trying to end it.
It may well be that your partner is depressed. It's entirely your partner's choice as to what medical treatment they seek, or don't. But if they're not going to put the effort in to develop a more rational view of the situation and stop getting angry with you about it, then perhaps it's time to make it clear to them what the consequences of that will be.
posted by Solomon at 12:52 PM on June 30, 2015 [2 favorites]
I've gotten this way towards my partner in the past when I had to take hormones for fertility treatments. I caught myself yelling "You never want to go for a walk!" at him, which was clearly untrue as we go for walks regularly and he was only turning me down once. What it meant was that I was frustrated with some patterns of behavior he had and was doing a terrible job of communicating about them, and that hormones were mucking around with my mood such that I had difficulty not getting overly emotional about things.
So, based on my experience, I do also wonder about your partner's mental health and mood issues, and whether those could be addressed separately from working on better communication in therapy. A couple of other techniques from my own therapy experiences:
- Instead of getting defensive when someone makes a statement like this (which I know is a hard reaction to squelch), return with some kind of reflection of their statement to show you heard them and are considering their feelings, i.e. "so what you're saying is that you feel like we are never going to ride bikes together. You were really excited about doing this bike ride with me, and then I said no. That must be frustrating. I'd like to make you feel better. What else could I do to help?"
- Try the "When you X, it makes me feel Y" method, i.e. "When you make statements like that about us 'never' doing things together, it makes me feel sad." or "When you say that you believe we're never going to sleep in the same bed, it makes me feel like you're not interested in trying to negotiate a solution to the problem/trying to make me feel bad about what I did. Can you try to avoid making blanket statements like that?" Encourage them to just say something directly like "I'm upset that you don't want to go for this bike ride, because I was excited about it" or "I was sad when I woke up this morning and you weren't there in bed with me. It made me feel unloved." Or whatever.
It seems to me that maybe your partner is trying to resolve this conflict in their emotions - i.e., "Partner is doing something I'm unhappy about. I don't want to fight with them about it, and I'm getting very upset about this conflict occurring. Therefore, I'm going to give up and accept that what I want is never going to happen, because then I can't be disappointed again, but if it does ever happen, I'll be pleasantly surprised." At the same time I think they are getting some degree of satisfaction out of making the statement out loud, like "See how you've hurt me. I hope that this hurts you too." Somehow they've got to transition from that to trying to resolve the conflict by talking with you or at least finding a way to get their frustration/emotions out without needling you in the process. If they're unable to do that, that's going to be a problem for the relationship in the long term.
posted by treehorn+bunny at 1:29 PM on June 30, 2015 [4 favorites]
So, based on my experience, I do also wonder about your partner's mental health and mood issues, and whether those could be addressed separately from working on better communication in therapy. A couple of other techniques from my own therapy experiences:
- Instead of getting defensive when someone makes a statement like this (which I know is a hard reaction to squelch), return with some kind of reflection of their statement to show you heard them and are considering their feelings, i.e. "so what you're saying is that you feel like we are never going to ride bikes together. You were really excited about doing this bike ride with me, and then I said no. That must be frustrating. I'd like to make you feel better. What else could I do to help?"
- Try the "When you X, it makes me feel Y" method, i.e. "When you make statements like that about us 'never' doing things together, it makes me feel sad." or "When you say that you believe we're never going to sleep in the same bed, it makes me feel like you're not interested in trying to negotiate a solution to the problem/trying to make me feel bad about what I did. Can you try to avoid making blanket statements like that?" Encourage them to just say something directly like "I'm upset that you don't want to go for this bike ride, because I was excited about it" or "I was sad when I woke up this morning and you weren't there in bed with me. It made me feel unloved." Or whatever.
It seems to me that maybe your partner is trying to resolve this conflict in their emotions - i.e., "Partner is doing something I'm unhappy about. I don't want to fight with them about it, and I'm getting very upset about this conflict occurring. Therefore, I'm going to give up and accept that what I want is never going to happen, because then I can't be disappointed again, but if it does ever happen, I'll be pleasantly surprised." At the same time I think they are getting some degree of satisfaction out of making the statement out loud, like "See how you've hurt me. I hope that this hurts you too." Somehow they've got to transition from that to trying to resolve the conflict by talking with you or at least finding a way to get their frustration/emotions out without needling you in the process. If they're unable to do that, that's going to be a problem for the relationship in the long term.
posted by treehorn+bunny at 1:29 PM on June 30, 2015 [4 favorites]
This would drive me nuts. If it is as you described, then yes, it is passive-aggressive. I think it is a good idea to bring up in counseling again, moving forward with a "when you say [catastrophizing thing] what would be the ideal response from me?" and trying to get as close to the ideal middle ground, which is them communicating their needs in a way that makes it clear what they want or need. Probably even before you go to counseling, you can ask them what their needs are.
So, like: SO: I'm just accepting that we're never going to ride bikes together.
You: I hope that's not the case, that would suck! Do you want me to get out my calendar and find a time to reschedule?
Or: SO: I just have to accept that we can't sleep in the same bed.
You: Maybe not. It sucks, I know. I wish I could change it but I can't. Could we maybe make plans to cuddle before we go to bed and after we wake up, so that we can still have some quality time?
But at this point this is you doing all the work, so it's just a stopgap until you go to counseling and figure out communication tips for both of you that will get both of you what you want/need here or at least a good compromise.
Then in counseling you can talk to them about methods of communicating what they are upset about that are good for your relationship, and hopefully your counselor can talk to them about making an actual I-statement, so it's clear that they aren't "accepting" anything but that they feel like you never go biking anymore, or more broadly, that the two of you always do stuff you suggest and not them, which then opens it up to figure out if that's actually true and come to a solution.
Now, anger: you two definitely need to talk about their anger in counseling. If their anger scares you or makes it difficult to voice your own concerns and needs, then they need to be willing to work on it if they want to keep this relationship alive. I am also not the best at dealing with frustration sometimes? And it has taken me a long time to learn that explosive anger is NOT a good and productive way to deal with it, which is probably a conclusion I wouldn't have come to on my own if I hadn't seen how frightening it can be when people around me let frustration build up into anger. I also learned from my therapist that studies tell us that "letting off steam" by punching something or screaming into a pillow actually makes people angry more often, which makes sense to me because you're basically conditioning yourself to deal with frustration by getting angry instead of by calming down.
I also used to catastrophize a lot (before I knew what it was) and it made me SO MAD when people would say "well, that's not going to happen" or "well, why don't you wait to worry about/accept that until it happens" because to me it felt like they were saying "well, that emotional response is stupid, a different one is the obvious right choice" and then I'd feel like "well I can't help my emotional responses, they just ARE, so are you calling me A STUPID PERSON? YOU DICK?" so I guess avoid that until/unless they acknowledge that they are a catastrophizer and just focus on validating the feeling instead of the verbiage like others have said.
posted by capricorn at 1:51 PM on June 30, 2015 [5 favorites]
So, like: SO: I'm just accepting that we're never going to ride bikes together.
You: I hope that's not the case, that would suck! Do you want me to get out my calendar and find a time to reschedule?
Or: SO: I just have to accept that we can't sleep in the same bed.
You: Maybe not. It sucks, I know. I wish I could change it but I can't. Could we maybe make plans to cuddle before we go to bed and after we wake up, so that we can still have some quality time?
But at this point this is you doing all the work, so it's just a stopgap until you go to counseling and figure out communication tips for both of you that will get both of you what you want/need here or at least a good compromise.
Then in counseling you can talk to them about methods of communicating what they are upset about that are good for your relationship, and hopefully your counselor can talk to them about making an actual I-statement, so it's clear that they aren't "accepting" anything but that they feel like you never go biking anymore, or more broadly, that the two of you always do stuff you suggest and not them, which then opens it up to figure out if that's actually true and come to a solution.
Now, anger: you two definitely need to talk about their anger in counseling. If their anger scares you or makes it difficult to voice your own concerns and needs, then they need to be willing to work on it if they want to keep this relationship alive. I am also not the best at dealing with frustration sometimes? And it has taken me a long time to learn that explosive anger is NOT a good and productive way to deal with it, which is probably a conclusion I wouldn't have come to on my own if I hadn't seen how frightening it can be when people around me let frustration build up into anger. I also learned from my therapist that studies tell us that "letting off steam" by punching something or screaming into a pillow actually makes people angry more often, which makes sense to me because you're basically conditioning yourself to deal with frustration by getting angry instead of by calming down.
I also used to catastrophize a lot (before I knew what it was) and it made me SO MAD when people would say "well, that's not going to happen" or "well, why don't you wait to worry about/accept that until it happens" because to me it felt like they were saying "well, that emotional response is stupid, a different one is the obvious right choice" and then I'd feel like "well I can't help my emotional responses, they just ARE, so are you calling me A STUPID PERSON? YOU DICK?" so I guess avoid that until/unless they acknowledge that they are a catastrophizer and just focus on validating the feeling instead of the verbiage like others have said.
posted by capricorn at 1:51 PM on June 30, 2015 [5 favorites]
I don't see enough here to determine whether you're "right," as you ask, and that's beside the point. You both seem at wits' end with something bigger than communication styles, and you might be triggering each other's landmine issues.
I can see where your reading of SOs reactions may apply, but it might be more helpful for you to hear alternate reads on your examples. A totally plausible reading is that your SO is trying very very hard to be accepting of your doing something (i.e., rejecting them for the nth time) that feels unacceptable. With the bike-- do you frequently reject activity suggestions? With the bed-- honestly, "more than half" the time sleeping apart would take some getting used to, so instead of flying off the handle, your SO is trying to accept it.
posted by kapers at 2:13 PM on June 30, 2015
I can see where your reading of SOs reactions may apply, but it might be more helpful for you to hear alternate reads on your examples. A totally plausible reading is that your SO is trying very very hard to be accepting of your doing something (i.e., rejecting them for the nth time) that feels unacceptable. With the bike-- do you frequently reject activity suggestions? With the bed-- honestly, "more than half" the time sleeping apart would take some getting used to, so instead of flying off the handle, your SO is trying to accept it.
posted by kapers at 2:13 PM on June 30, 2015
What jumped out at me the most was how you mentioned that confronting this behavior elicits, what sounds like, a pretty strong anger reaction. That is most concerning. It speaks to the existence of some kind of ball of hidden anger towards you that is getting tapped into whenever you bring this up. It sounds like a lot of these feelings of catastrophe and disappointment might stem from a sense of entitlement that your SO has regarding these little day-to-day aspects of living and relationships; an internal voice that says "why can't we ride bikes whenever I want", "why can't we be a couple that shares a bed every single night". Of course, in life, we can't have everything we want go or exist ideally according to our desires, so this kind of entitlement thinking (even if subconscious) will necessarily produce frustrations and a sensation of unmet needs. If this is the case, I would argue it is a touch of narcissism. One feature about people with tendencies like this, is that if their emotions and perspectives that they feel entitled to are challenged in any way, they usually lash out with anger rather than examine whether their behavior has any role in the hurt of others. In very early stages of childhood, a maladaptive pattern can develop for such people where [there is a perception of unmet needs/neglect from caretaker] >> [ego fears that it originates from a lack of inherent self worth] >> [ego displaces fear onto external entities in the form of anger to protect itself] >> [further conditioning feelings of neglect/ unmet needs]
I think what really needs to happen is for your partner to change the thinking regarding his/her anger. Yes, they can feel angry, but it is a selfish emotion; which is not very productive in a relationship or helping one understand what one actually needs in a relationship or in life generally. I think you may have to be more confrontational and upfront when the anger happens and really try to put it out there that this blaming and guilt tripping affects you- hurts your feelings. If your significant other has the ability to empathize and reflect, they may gradually see what they are doing and strive to find a better way to express needs in the relationship. If you think that you can't manage this on your own without huge fights errupting, couples therapy could help facilitate this back and forth that needs to happen. In the end, all you can do is be honest and speak how you feel; what the other does with that information is beyond our control.
posted by incolorinred at 2:44 PM on June 30, 2015 [4 favorites]
I think what really needs to happen is for your partner to change the thinking regarding his/her anger. Yes, they can feel angry, but it is a selfish emotion; which is not very productive in a relationship or helping one understand what one actually needs in a relationship or in life generally. I think you may have to be more confrontational and upfront when the anger happens and really try to put it out there that this blaming and guilt tripping affects you- hurts your feelings. If your significant other has the ability to empathize and reflect, they may gradually see what they are doing and strive to find a better way to express needs in the relationship. If you think that you can't manage this on your own without huge fights errupting, couples therapy could help facilitate this back and forth that needs to happen. In the end, all you can do is be honest and speak how you feel; what the other does with that information is beyond our control.
posted by incolorinred at 2:44 PM on June 30, 2015 [4 favorites]
I am slightly mystified that you are in therapy together but your partner is still using "never" language. "Always" and "never" are awful communication weapons that so nothing except engender defensiveness.
The therapeutic tool for this is to ask the person using this language to rephrase. Perhaps your therapist can help you do this to improve your communication.
posted by DarlingBri at 4:23 PM on June 30, 2015 [1 favorite]
The therapeutic tool for this is to ask the person using this language to rephrase. Perhaps your therapist can help you do this to improve your communication.
posted by DarlingBri at 4:23 PM on June 30, 2015 [1 favorite]
Seconding ghost phoneme: both of you should get sleep tests! My apnea was severe - I recall about 60 AHI. To quote my pulmonologist: "Wow! You have severe sleep apnea!" I got a CPAP, and a new lease on life. I was able to quit my antidepressant and mood stabilizer - I was not depressed and anxious, I was sleep-deprived! My long-standing insomnia also resolved itself.
Not all snorers have sleep apnea, but almost everyone with sleep apnea snores - so get it checked out. You don't have to be an overweight middle-aged man to have apnea. If you stop breathing and wake up multiple times an hour, of course you are going to feel like shit and have poor problem-solving skills. Go get a sleep test.
posted by Rosie M. Banks at 4:37 PM on June 30, 2015 [1 favorite]
Not all snorers have sleep apnea, but almost everyone with sleep apnea snores - so get it checked out. You don't have to be an overweight middle-aged man to have apnea. If you stop breathing and wake up multiple times an hour, of course you are going to feel like shit and have poor problem-solving skills. Go get a sleep test.
posted by Rosie M. Banks at 4:37 PM on June 30, 2015 [1 favorite]
My ex-husband was a champion at this sort of thing -- the sad "we'll NEVER ______" was the first tactic to override my saying no to whatever the thing was, and the second tactic was the getting irrationally angry. It was one of the first signs that he was turning very controlling, which in turn led to abuse. It's also among the many reasons he's now my ex-husband.
posted by sarcasticah at 5:01 PM on June 30, 2015 [3 favorites]
posted by sarcasticah at 5:01 PM on June 30, 2015 [3 favorites]
When I have reacted this way to things, it's that some button of mine had been pushed. I'm experiencing a wave of fury (justified or unjustified, that's what's there), and I'm struggling to react like an adult. The first "we never _____" overreaction is the best I can muster, and any followup is going to get anger because that's what the first response was covering up.
I think you guys need to get at what's behind that first reaction, the part where he gets upset and before he even verbalizes the "never" part. What's the button getting pushed? If you two have been working through "'Yes I will do $thing' to 'No, because $excuse' ratio" issues, it may be that he's just still smarting from when that was a worse problem.
posted by Blue Jello Elf at 5:12 PM on June 30, 2015 [3 favorites]
I think you guys need to get at what's behind that first reaction, the part where he gets upset and before he even verbalizes the "never" part. What's the button getting pushed? If you two have been working through "'Yes I will do $thing' to 'No, because $excuse' ratio" issues, it may be that he's just still smarting from when that was a worse problem.
posted by Blue Jello Elf at 5:12 PM on June 30, 2015 [3 favorites]
Why are you asking 'why are you upset?' - it seems like a pretty obvious answer in both circumstances and the push seems unnecessary. And if it is a situation of 'never' (aka what 3491again said) then they do need time to adjust. It isn't a 'therapy bans the word never' situation for me and my partner when it comes to boardgames for example - I am never going to sit down and play his preferred kind of game with him. Just not ever happening. The ones I like maybe, but he has had to take time to adjust to the fact that he won't get to share one of his favourite hobbies with me - if I asked 'why are you upset' about that, it would just be insensitive. He's upset because he would love to spend time doing this with me and it's not going to happen. It isn't an attempt to get me to play them, it's a statement of his emotional state. Same with those times where we've had significantly different sleep times and missed out on bed time snuggles - it's not 'never' but he can be as upset as he needs to be about the fact that for the next three months we have highly disparate sleep schedules and that's balls. It's obvious why that's upsetting - I'd be super pissed if I were in his situation.
We do have an intractable issue about christmas, that has lead to these kinds of shitty conversations, and yeah it's frustrating when the problem and the hurt seems obvious ("you're prioritising your fun with your family over my fun and my mental health and christmas with my family and the budget and our child") but my partner seems to forget everything but "christmas is fun when I spend time with my siblings!". Similarly it can be easy for me to forget that not-spending-time is hurtful to my partner. So that is something, specifically, that we have to be very precise and careful about discussing.
In general though - your partner can be upset about things, and that's ok. It doesn't mean you have to do them, but respect their feelings and don't ask them to justify and act happy when they aren't (which is what the 'why are you upset' question can feel like when to the upset person it's really obvious why). Offer a different solution, instead of asking why. Apologise if that's appropriate. Reschedule if you can. Don't just shut a thing down then (kinda disingenuously) query why that's not enjoyable. Particularly if there is a history of high no/low yes.
posted by geek anachronism at 5:47 PM on June 30, 2015 [4 favorites]
We do have an intractable issue about christmas, that has lead to these kinds of shitty conversations, and yeah it's frustrating when the problem and the hurt seems obvious ("you're prioritising your fun with your family over my fun and my mental health and christmas with my family and the budget and our child") but my partner seems to forget everything but "christmas is fun when I spend time with my siblings!". Similarly it can be easy for me to forget that not-spending-time is hurtful to my partner. So that is something, specifically, that we have to be very precise and careful about discussing.
In general though - your partner can be upset about things, and that's ok. It doesn't mean you have to do them, but respect their feelings and don't ask them to justify and act happy when they aren't (which is what the 'why are you upset' question can feel like when to the upset person it's really obvious why). Offer a different solution, instead of asking why. Apologise if that's appropriate. Reschedule if you can. Don't just shut a thing down then (kinda disingenuously) query why that's not enjoyable. Particularly if there is a history of high no/low yes.
posted by geek anachronism at 5:47 PM on June 30, 2015 [4 favorites]
How about reminding them "we just went on a ride last week?"
Or how about "that's not what I meant. I'm just saying that it's particularly scary for me to ride during rush hour. Would you want to wait until rush hour is over and bike then?"
posted by salvia at 6:14 PM on June 30, 2015
Or how about "that's not what I meant. I'm just saying that it's particularly scary for me to ride during rush hour. Would you want to wait until rush hour is over and bike then?"
posted by salvia at 6:14 PM on June 30, 2015
I'm also wondering if you say no a lot. Your partner's reaction is frustrating, but it hurts to feel rejected.
I wonder if you could try the validation/compliment sandwich approach:
Partner: Let's go fora bike ride to Treeville!
You: A bike ride sounds great! I wonder if it might be prett crowded today because it's Tree Day in Treevile. Could we try a bike ride to Lakeville instead?
posted by bluedaisy at 8:52 PM on June 30, 2015
I wonder if you could try the validation/compliment sandwich approach:
Partner: Let's go fora bike ride to Treeville!
You: A bike ride sounds great! I wonder if it might be prett crowded today because it's Tree Day in Treevile. Could we try a bike ride to Lakeville instead?
posted by bluedaisy at 8:52 PM on June 30, 2015
People seem to be missing that the OP, at least in the first example, is offering an alternative, not just saying "No":
Me: I'd rather not, because [traffic, weather, whatever]. Let's get there another way, or let's ride bikes somewhere else.
posted by jaguar at 9:27 PM on June 30, 2015 [5 favorites]
Me: I'd rather not, because [traffic, weather, whatever]. Let's get there another way, or let's ride bikes somewhere else.
posted by jaguar at 9:27 PM on June 30, 2015 [5 favorites]
A couple of thoughts:
Sleep studies for both of you = definitely a great plan. Regularly missing out on sleep definitely makes everything else emotional that much harder, so it's a great idea to see if this is something fixable. Similarly, sleeping in the same bed is a huge emotional issue for a lot of people -- while some couples obviously make the separate beds/rooms thing work for them, for others that's sort of a bright line. For me personally, I would be really hurt if my husband and I were regularly not sleeping in the same bed, and there weren't ongoing efforts from him to fix the issue. Can something be done about the snoring? Stashing extra pairs of earplugs in an "emergency" location? Etc.
I'm also curious what you mean by the phrase "becomes upset." I am a huge involuntary crier. I have worked really hard at getting better about it over the years (because, dude, it SUCKS to start crying in front of your professor or boss!), but I am still the sort of person who cries more than average and at smaller than average things. And once your body is in that crying zone, it can be hard not to catastrophize, because you're literally physically in this bad state. (I WILL NEVER FIND MY LOST EYEGLASSES AND WILL NOT BE ABLE TO GO TO WORK AND WILL LOSE MY JOB AND BE BLIND FOREVER...) Whether crying or some other state of physical excitement/intensity, it might be that your partner is just having a moment of "I'm having a bad reaction here that I don't necessarily want to be having, and thus am reacting in a somewhat over-the-top way." Just speaking for myself, when I get this way I know it's irrational, and don't like it, but I can't necessarily make it go away on command, and so for sure I can get defensive about it if I'm not super careful.
As for how my husband successfully responds to my momentary freakouts, he is kind of the best at it (way better than any previous partner I have had). Basically he just recognizes, okay, rainbowbrite is freaking out, time to drop whatever the discussion was (for the moment) and give her a hug. He'll come over and just give me a huge hug and say something like "I love you. I'm here. I'm not going anywhere." Like, the total basics -- no it's going to be okay, or your perception is wrong, or you should calm down. Just I love you, and I'm here. It sounds like in these moments your partner needs some basic reassurance, so I wonder if something like this would help.
Finally, you mention that this happens rarely, and isn't typical of your partner's overall approach to conflict/conversations/etc. Honestly...no one is perfect. No matter how self-actualized we get or how much therapy we go through, none of us are ever going to be able to guarantee that we'll never have a blow up or an irrational reaction or make a catastrophizing statement. That is simply not realistic. Obviously if this were happening every day or week and all of your conflicts were going down this way, it would be a serious problem that would need to be solved. As it is...maybe try some acceptance and forgiveness that your partner isn't perfect, you aren't perfect, and neither of you will come up with the perfect response in every interaction you have. I'm sure you sometimes have emotional reactions that your partner isn't crazy about as well, and wouldn't you want your partner to show you forgiveness in those moments? This doesn't mean you can't raise the issue in therapy -- if it's bothering you, then go for it and see where it goes. But I wouldn't necessarily go into it with the idea that you'll totally "fix" your partner -- maybe what you can hope for is to understand his emotional reaction better so that you can respond in the way he needs when he's having a momentary freak out (like how my partner has learned that what I need is a big hug and an "I love you.")
posted by rainbowbrite at 7:16 AM on July 1, 2015 [6 favorites]
Sleep studies for both of you = definitely a great plan. Regularly missing out on sleep definitely makes everything else emotional that much harder, so it's a great idea to see if this is something fixable. Similarly, sleeping in the same bed is a huge emotional issue for a lot of people -- while some couples obviously make the separate beds/rooms thing work for them, for others that's sort of a bright line. For me personally, I would be really hurt if my husband and I were regularly not sleeping in the same bed, and there weren't ongoing efforts from him to fix the issue. Can something be done about the snoring? Stashing extra pairs of earplugs in an "emergency" location? Etc.
I'm also curious what you mean by the phrase "becomes upset." I am a huge involuntary crier. I have worked really hard at getting better about it over the years (because, dude, it SUCKS to start crying in front of your professor or boss!), but I am still the sort of person who cries more than average and at smaller than average things. And once your body is in that crying zone, it can be hard not to catastrophize, because you're literally physically in this bad state. (I WILL NEVER FIND MY LOST EYEGLASSES AND WILL NOT BE ABLE TO GO TO WORK AND WILL LOSE MY JOB AND BE BLIND FOREVER...) Whether crying or some other state of physical excitement/intensity, it might be that your partner is just having a moment of "I'm having a bad reaction here that I don't necessarily want to be having, and thus am reacting in a somewhat over-the-top way." Just speaking for myself, when I get this way I know it's irrational, and don't like it, but I can't necessarily make it go away on command, and so for sure I can get defensive about it if I'm not super careful.
As for how my husband successfully responds to my momentary freakouts, he is kind of the best at it (way better than any previous partner I have had). Basically he just recognizes, okay, rainbowbrite is freaking out, time to drop whatever the discussion was (for the moment) and give her a hug. He'll come over and just give me a huge hug and say something like "I love you. I'm here. I'm not going anywhere." Like, the total basics -- no it's going to be okay, or your perception is wrong, or you should calm down. Just I love you, and I'm here. It sounds like in these moments your partner needs some basic reassurance, so I wonder if something like this would help.
Finally, you mention that this happens rarely, and isn't typical of your partner's overall approach to conflict/conversations/etc. Honestly...no one is perfect. No matter how self-actualized we get or how much therapy we go through, none of us are ever going to be able to guarantee that we'll never have a blow up or an irrational reaction or make a catastrophizing statement. That is simply not realistic. Obviously if this were happening every day or week and all of your conflicts were going down this way, it would be a serious problem that would need to be solved. As it is...maybe try some acceptance and forgiveness that your partner isn't perfect, you aren't perfect, and neither of you will come up with the perfect response in every interaction you have. I'm sure you sometimes have emotional reactions that your partner isn't crazy about as well, and wouldn't you want your partner to show you forgiveness in those moments? This doesn't mean you can't raise the issue in therapy -- if it's bothering you, then go for it and see where it goes. But I wouldn't necessarily go into it with the idea that you'll totally "fix" your partner -- maybe what you can hope for is to understand his emotional reaction better so that you can respond in the way he needs when he's having a momentary freak out (like how my partner has learned that what I need is a big hug and an "I love you.")
posted by rainbowbrite at 7:16 AM on July 1, 2015 [6 favorites]
This thread is closed to new comments.
Obviously, they're trying to work on the relationship and take signs of distance or disagreement very poorly, which perhaps makes sense in context of counseling, etc.
And they do have a bit of a point- snoring, weather, business, traffic- these are life constants. Waiting for them to go away (particularly the snoring) seems futile and not likely if ever to occur on its own, so in essence, yes, that is equivalent to a "never." They are thinking that you must decide to do these things in spite of the obstacles, and I kind of understand. The truth is probably in between your two approaches.
Tl:dr: I'd just be charitable and try to do the bike ride in hot weather once in a while. That seems to me to be the best solution here. YMMV, others may disagree.
posted by quincunx at 10:47 AM on June 30, 2015 [2 favorites]