Should I ask my uncle about his Big Secret car crash from 50 years ago?
May 20, 2015 7:19 AM Subscribe
This AskMe from 2010 is me. When I wrote that, I had just heard about a car crash my uncle was allegedly in when he was in his early 20s, where he was driving and a passenger died. I never asked about the crash and a newspaper search didn't pull anything up at the time. But I recently stumbled upon an old newspaper article that confirmed it. I don't know what to do, or not do, with this information. He has never even hinted about anything like this.
I found the newspaper article, to my great surprise, while Googling my uncle's uncommon name for other reasons. I guess that in the last 5 years the paper has been digitized and cataloged by Google. The basic facts matched what I had been told many years before: he was in his early 20s, it was late at night on the way home from a campground several counties away, he lost control of the car and hit something, and his passenger died. The timing and location and his age suggest that he might have been drinking that day but I don't know.
Back in 2010, I got military records from a FOIA request and I called the county courthouse to see if there was a case that came out of it, but neither of those really got me anywhere. I have since reconfirmed with the courthouse that there's no information, gotten the obituary of the guy that died to confirm that the article was right, and called the highway patrol to look after a crash report if there is one. Basically, I have learned all that I can from secondary sources.
My uncle is a complicated guy. He was in the army in Vietnam, before the draft was strictly done by lottery, and now I am really wondering if maybe he wasn't actually drafted as he has always said before. He came back pretty messed up from it and does not talk about his time there.
Since learning about the crash, I am questioning lots of other interactions we've had and decisions he's made. My uncle has no kids of his own and I have been very close with him most of my life. He is very close with my own kids too.
I feel like if he has never talked about this - to ANYBODY, as far ask I can tell - he doesn't want to now and would prefer to carry the secret with him until he dies. And I guess I should respect that. But at the same, I feel like if I know this big thing, I will think of it whenever we interact and I never be able to talk with him honestly if I don't somehow acknowledge it.
I honestly have no idea how he would react if I brought it up: when I have tried to talk to him about his time in Vietnam he has generally just deflected it. I really would like to know more about it and to tell him that it doesn't change how I feel about him. But just me knowing this, and letting him know that I do, might jeopardize our relationship or might cause him to revisit some pain.
I will see him next week, and am not sure what to do.
I found the newspaper article, to my great surprise, while Googling my uncle's uncommon name for other reasons. I guess that in the last 5 years the paper has been digitized and cataloged by Google. The basic facts matched what I had been told many years before: he was in his early 20s, it was late at night on the way home from a campground several counties away, he lost control of the car and hit something, and his passenger died. The timing and location and his age suggest that he might have been drinking that day but I don't know.
Back in 2010, I got military records from a FOIA request and I called the county courthouse to see if there was a case that came out of it, but neither of those really got me anywhere. I have since reconfirmed with the courthouse that there's no information, gotten the obituary of the guy that died to confirm that the article was right, and called the highway patrol to look after a crash report if there is one. Basically, I have learned all that I can from secondary sources.
My uncle is a complicated guy. He was in the army in Vietnam, before the draft was strictly done by lottery, and now I am really wondering if maybe he wasn't actually drafted as he has always said before. He came back pretty messed up from it and does not talk about his time there.
Since learning about the crash, I am questioning lots of other interactions we've had and decisions he's made. My uncle has no kids of his own and I have been very close with him most of my life. He is very close with my own kids too.
I feel like if he has never talked about this - to ANYBODY, as far ask I can tell - he doesn't want to now and would prefer to carry the secret with him until he dies. And I guess I should respect that. But at the same, I feel like if I know this big thing, I will think of it whenever we interact and I never be able to talk with him honestly if I don't somehow acknowledge it.
I honestly have no idea how he would react if I brought it up: when I have tried to talk to him about his time in Vietnam he has generally just deflected it. I really would like to know more about it and to tell him that it doesn't change how I feel about him. But just me knowing this, and letting him know that I do, might jeopardize our relationship or might cause him to revisit some pain.
I will see him next week, and am not sure what to do.
he doesn't want to now and would prefer to carry the secret with him until he dies. And I guess I should respect that.
Yes, you should indeed.
never be able to talk with him honestly if I don't somehow acknowledge it.
Is this more important than respecting his apparent wishes?
Write a letter expressing your feelings and concerns. Get them out on paper. Not an email or word processing document.
Then destroy the letter.
posted by jgirl at 7:30 AM on May 20, 2015 [20 favorites]
Yes, you should indeed.
never be able to talk with him honestly if I don't somehow acknowledge it.
Is this more important than respecting his apparent wishes?
Write a letter expressing your feelings and concerns. Get them out on paper. Not an email or word processing document.
Then destroy the letter.
posted by jgirl at 7:30 AM on May 20, 2015 [20 favorites]
Your curiosity doesn't outweigh your uncle's privacy.
posted by macadamiaranch at 7:30 AM on May 20, 2015 [66 favorites]
posted by macadamiaranch at 7:30 AM on May 20, 2015 [66 favorites]
And I guess I should respect that.
Yes, please respect his silence. I can't think of a single reason to bring up painful episodes from a person's history that they have not brought up on their own. You have already tried to talk to him about his time in Vietnam and he has deflected it.
I will think of it whenever we interact and I never be able to talk with him honestly if I don't somehow acknowledge it.
What does this have to do with anything? Have all of your previous discussions with your uncle been somehow dishonest?
posted by Mouse Army at 7:31 AM on May 20, 2015 [9 favorites]
Yes, please respect his silence. I can't think of a single reason to bring up painful episodes from a person's history that they have not brought up on their own. You have already tried to talk to him about his time in Vietnam and he has deflected it.
I will think of it whenever we interact and I never be able to talk with him honestly if I don't somehow acknowledge it.
What does this have to do with anything? Have all of your previous discussions with your uncle been somehow dishonest?
posted by Mouse Army at 7:31 AM on May 20, 2015 [9 favorites]
Several of my uncles served in WWII and Korea: wars with far more 'popular' support than Vietnam, in other words. Even so, none of them, not one, ever wanted to talk about their time overseas --- one who served from Jan. 1942 all the way through to late 1946, who I know (from hunting up his service records) was in the invasion of Italy, never said more than that he "caught some sort of foot crud, and couldn't wear anything but undyed white socks for the rest of his life". A nephew of mine, currently on his 3rd tour in Afghanistan, also doesn't like to talk much about it.
My point is, even the guys who were in wars with widespread support back home often don't want to talk about it with civilians: they'll often talk to the guys down at the VFW or the American Legion --- guys with similar experiences --- but they don't want to expose their families to it all. It's a way to compartmentalize it.
posted by easily confused at 7:36 AM on May 20, 2015 [10 favorites]
My point is, even the guys who were in wars with widespread support back home often don't want to talk about it with civilians: they'll often talk to the guys down at the VFW or the American Legion --- guys with similar experiences --- but they don't want to expose their families to it all. It's a way to compartmentalize it.
posted by easily confused at 7:36 AM on May 20, 2015 [10 favorites]
He was in the army in Vietnam, before the draft was strictly done by lottery, and now I am really wondering if maybe he wasn't actually drafted as he has always said before.
Lots of men who got draft numbers that had a high likelihood of being called would enlist before being drafted since it gave them better opportunities (or at least they thought it did.) I don't think the specifics of how/why he went to Vietnam are important. He went and it affected him.
As for the accident - leave it alone. Go to therapy yourself if you can't deal with him in the same way. It was an accident and you have no way of knowing how at fault he was, even if he confessed the whole ordeal to you. Questioning his life and choices is not your place, either. You are close with him and let your kids be close with him as well. Your only concern here is that you feel safe around him and safe in having your kids around him. Even if there are things you disagree with about his choices, demonstrating graciousness and love to him is a good example for your kids.
posted by soelo at 7:36 AM on May 20, 2015 [10 favorites]
Lots of men who got draft numbers that had a high likelihood of being called would enlist before being drafted since it gave them better opportunities (or at least they thought it did.) I don't think the specifics of how/why he went to Vietnam are important. He went and it affected him.
As for the accident - leave it alone. Go to therapy yourself if you can't deal with him in the same way. It was an accident and you have no way of knowing how at fault he was, even if he confessed the whole ordeal to you. Questioning his life and choices is not your place, either. You are close with him and let your kids be close with him as well. Your only concern here is that you feel safe around him and safe in having your kids around him. Even if there are things you disagree with about his choices, demonstrating graciousness and love to him is a good example for your kids.
posted by soelo at 7:36 AM on May 20, 2015 [10 favorites]
Why do you need to know this?
Consider: you probably know ten or fifteen people who did something bad/scary/wrong/traumatic in their twenties. Some of them probably did really awful things, like sexually assault someone. You already know people with deep dark secrets about things they did. You don't spend your time wondering which ones of your acquaintance have deep dark secrets - even though that's even weirder, right*?
Your uncle has an ambiguous thing in his past - long, long ago now. Concentrate on letting it go.
*I add that in my experience of Learning Strange Things About People I Know, there are a lot of really strange things around deaths, accidents and injuries, a lot of ambiguities, a lot of terrible accidents. We have a narrative that goes "clearly if something bad happened it's because there is an easy, simple explanation and a villain" and this is so rarely the case. You should let people keep their secrets if it's about a one-time terrible thing in the past that was not about intentionally hurting someone.
posted by Frowner at 7:41 AM on May 20, 2015 [20 favorites]
Consider: you probably know ten or fifteen people who did something bad/scary/wrong/traumatic in their twenties. Some of them probably did really awful things, like sexually assault someone. You already know people with deep dark secrets about things they did. You don't spend your time wondering which ones of your acquaintance have deep dark secrets - even though that's even weirder, right*?
Your uncle has an ambiguous thing in his past - long, long ago now. Concentrate on letting it go.
*I add that in my experience of Learning Strange Things About People I Know, there are a lot of really strange things around deaths, accidents and injuries, a lot of ambiguities, a lot of terrible accidents. We have a narrative that goes "clearly if something bad happened it's because there is an easy, simple explanation and a villain" and this is so rarely the case. You should let people keep their secrets if it's about a one-time terrible thing in the past that was not about intentionally hurting someone.
posted by Frowner at 7:41 AM on May 20, 2015 [20 favorites]
Start respecting your uncle's right not to talk about his past, and stop digging around in it.
The timing and location and his age suggest that he might have been drinking that day but I don't know.
Exactly. Stop trying to draw conclusions about what happened that day from the very little information that you do have.
posted by kinddieserzeit at 7:45 AM on May 20, 2015 [4 favorites]
The timing and location and his age suggest that he might have been drinking that day but I don't know.
Exactly. Stop trying to draw conclusions about what happened that day from the very little information that you do have.
posted by kinddieserzeit at 7:45 AM on May 20, 2015 [4 favorites]
Since learning about the crash, I am questioning lots of other interactions we've had and decisions he's made. My uncle has no kids of his own and I have been very close with him most of my life. He is very close with my own kids too.
Has this information, in some way, insinuated to you that he's your real father?
That's the only legitimate reason for bringing this up with him.
Otherwise, you're not part of this story, you already know the plot and the ending, and I'm sure he'd appreciate it if you didn't make him re-tell it.
posted by eschatfische at 7:49 AM on May 20, 2015 [11 favorites]
Has this information, in some way, insinuated to you that he's your real father?
That's the only legitimate reason for bringing this up with him.
Otherwise, you're not part of this story, you already know the plot and the ending, and I'm sure he'd appreciate it if you didn't make him re-tell it.
posted by eschatfische at 7:49 AM on May 20, 2015 [11 favorites]
Take some more time to self-interrogate why you want to know more/discuss this. You seem to think that it will be so overwhelming in your awareness when interacting with him that you won't be able to interact normally, but why? Why not just file it under "some bad shit happened a long time ago and is best left undisturbed" and move on?
The only justification I can think of for bringing it up would be if what you already know makes you feel genuinely concerned that he is a danger to himself or others (or to yourself) but that doesn't seem to be the case here at all. Even if it were I would tread very carefully.
Respect his right to privacy. Let it go.
posted by Wretch729 at 7:49 AM on May 20, 2015 [6 favorites]
The only justification I can think of for bringing it up would be if what you already know makes you feel genuinely concerned that he is a danger to himself or others (or to yourself) but that doesn't seem to be the case here at all. Even if it were I would tread very carefully.
Respect his right to privacy. Let it go.
posted by Wretch729 at 7:49 AM on May 20, 2015 [6 favorites]
What's it to you?
posted by Iteki at 7:50 AM on May 20, 2015 [7 favorites]
posted by Iteki at 7:50 AM on May 20, 2015 [7 favorites]
Gosh. I have a deep dark similar thing. I don't consider it a secret, but I don't really talk much about it to protect my loved ones... And I suppose myself.
If you really must ask, don't tell him about your investigative efforts. It comes across as weird and invasive. Ask him about the Google search results, and if it was him or just someone with his name.
posted by samthemander at 7:51 AM on May 20, 2015
If you really must ask, don't tell him about your investigative efforts. It comes across as weird and invasive. Ask him about the Google search results, and if it was him or just someone with his name.
posted by samthemander at 7:51 AM on May 20, 2015
Respect that he obviously does not want to talk about this with you. Your curiosity does not trump that.
posted by amro at 8:00 AM on May 20, 2015 [7 favorites]
posted by amro at 8:00 AM on May 20, 2015 [7 favorites]
It's none of your business. Why would this one thing, however things may or may not have gone down back then, invalidate your decades of experience of him? The man you know is the man he is, and it's none of your business what may have happened before you knew him. None of your question is about what he needs, it's just about you wanting to satisfy your curiosity.
posted by MsMolly at 8:01 AM on May 20, 2015 [6 favorites]
posted by MsMolly at 8:01 AM on May 20, 2015 [6 favorites]
Does it have to be your uncle that you talk to about this? Because he is uninterested. Even though you mean well. If your goal is to get closer to your uncle by understanding his experiences, maybe you could find a penpal who has had similar experiences. There's at least one penpal website for veterans. You could maybe ask metafilter what it was like to kill someone in a car crash. These stories are not your uncle's stories, but they might give you some of the empathy and insight you seek.
But you could also drop it. If you had explicitly asked your uncle whether he was ok with you researching his said beyond what you found by accident, what do you expect he might have said?
Also, I would worry that even asking to talk about something he doesn't want to talk about might bring up painful memories, even if the subject is then dropped between the two of you.
On the other hand, occasionally people approach me very carefully about something I'm emotionally available to talk about and just never brought up. But given his response to your question of Vietnam, I think he wants to leave it alone.
posted by aniola at 8:02 AM on May 20, 2015 [1 favorite]
But you could also drop it. If you had explicitly asked your uncle whether he was ok with you researching his said beyond what you found by accident, what do you expect he might have said?
Also, I would worry that even asking to talk about something he doesn't want to talk about might bring up painful memories, even if the subject is then dropped between the two of you.
On the other hand, occasionally people approach me very carefully about something I'm emotionally available to talk about and just never brought up. But given his response to your question of Vietnam, I think he wants to leave it alone.
posted by aniola at 8:02 AM on May 20, 2015 [1 favorite]
I also want to point out that before, say, the 1980s, there was nowhere near as much knowledge surrounding drinking and driving as there is today. The massive public education efforts from organizations like MADD have made it socially unacceptable to drink and drive, but it wasn't always like that. Back then, when your uncle was in his 20s, it was relatively common to have a few (or more) beers and then drive home. It was sort of something people might slightly roll their eyes at, in a sort of "Kids, amirite?!?!" sort of way, but it wasn't viewed the same way it is now, i.e., as a deeply antisocial act.
So if it's the drinking and driving you're concerned with, you might just want to keep in mind that it really was a different time then. You can't accurately measure that act with the same level of moral disapprobation that we would today because the standards of the time were totally different.
posted by holborne at 8:03 AM on May 20, 2015 [10 favorites]
So if it's the drinking and driving you're concerned with, you might just want to keep in mind that it really was a different time then. You can't accurately measure that act with the same level of moral disapprobation that we would today because the standards of the time were totally different.
posted by holborne at 8:03 AM on May 20, 2015 [10 favorites]
never be able to talk with him honestly if I don't somehow acknowledge it.
This is your problem to fix, not his. Don't make it his. Write some private journal entries, talk to a therapist, whatever. Don't put it on him.
posted by rtha at 8:05 AM on May 20, 2015 [6 favorites]
This is your problem to fix, not his. Don't make it his. Write some private journal entries, talk to a therapist, whatever. Don't put it on him.
posted by rtha at 8:05 AM on May 20, 2015 [6 favorites]
Frankly, the lengths to which you've gone to pursue this already are disturbing. And that you feel you are entitled to his thoughts and explanations on the matter, more so. Presumably law enforcement was involved and this matter put to bed long ago. You should leave it alone as well. And don't punish your uncle (even if only in your own mind) for something that is so far in the past and is none of your business.
posted by cecic at 8:10 AM on May 20, 2015 [55 favorites]
posted by cecic at 8:10 AM on May 20, 2015 [55 favorites]
And I guess I should respect that.
Yes, you should. He has expressly made it clear (through deflection) that this is not an avenue he wants to discuss with you.
But at the same, I feel like if I know this big thing, I will think of it whenever we interact and I never be able to talk with him honestly if I don't somehow acknowledge it.
This is your issue to work out. Since you know that it would be an imposition to try to make him talk about this with you, you will need to work it out yourself or with someone who is not him.
If it helps to look at this another way... this sort of "But I NEED to get this feeling out and know something that I am uncertain about" is often the impulse that causes men to go up to women (who are indicating they do not want to be spoken to) and speak to them. Because they feel that they have a need that they prioritize above the other person's unstated but fairly obvious wishes to be left alone. It's easier, from the outside, to see how this is an impulse that should be handled NOT through communication with the unwilling participant.
It's okay to feel uneasy and it's okay to feel curious but the fact that you are having those feelings does not create an obligation on the part of your uncle to discuss those things with you. Give the man his privacy and show your respect to him by letting him keep private things private.
posted by jessamyn at 8:13 AM on May 20, 2015 [27 favorites]
Yes, you should. He has expressly made it clear (through deflection) that this is not an avenue he wants to discuss with you.
But at the same, I feel like if I know this big thing, I will think of it whenever we interact and I never be able to talk with him honestly if I don't somehow acknowledge it.
This is your issue to work out. Since you know that it would be an imposition to try to make him talk about this with you, you will need to work it out yourself or with someone who is not him.
If it helps to look at this another way... this sort of "But I NEED to get this feeling out and know something that I am uncertain about" is often the impulse that causes men to go up to women (who are indicating they do not want to be spoken to) and speak to them. Because they feel that they have a need that they prioritize above the other person's unstated but fairly obvious wishes to be left alone. It's easier, from the outside, to see how this is an impulse that should be handled NOT through communication with the unwilling participant.
It's okay to feel uneasy and it's okay to feel curious but the fact that you are having those feelings does not create an obligation on the part of your uncle to discuss those things with you. Give the man his privacy and show your respect to him by letting him keep private things private.
posted by jessamyn at 8:13 AM on May 20, 2015 [27 favorites]
You could possibly tell him that you're aware that he may not have anyone to talk to, and that if he ever wants to talk, that you want to be there for him, if he is down with that. To be said without having anything specific in mind! I wonder if these aspects of his past are your way of trying to be closer to him.
Sometimes it's the boring details that make up who we are. We're that one colorful story in our past, but we're also a thousand everyday stories as well. Your uncle may prefer to focus on the here-and-now of his life story. And you are already in that life story. Maybe just invite him on a/nother picnic with your family some time.
posted by aniola at 8:15 AM on May 20, 2015 [1 favorite]
Sometimes it's the boring details that make up who we are. We're that one colorful story in our past, but we're also a thousand everyday stories as well. Your uncle may prefer to focus on the here-and-now of his life story. And you are already in that life story. Maybe just invite him on a/nother picnic with your family some time.
posted by aniola at 8:15 AM on May 20, 2015 [1 favorite]
Also, your uncle - if he is a good person - has probably spent a lot of time thinking about and suffering over this accident and trying to deal with being the survivor. I don't think it's especially appropriate for you to assume that somehow he "should" be dealing with such a terrible thing in all his social relationships for the rest of his life.
I know someone who has a terrible thing in his past - possibly worse than what you describe, a horrible situation that was not his fault (and I think given the culture around drinking and driving in the past and the fact that you don't even know that your uncle was drinking make that a fair comparison). It has shaped his subsequent life in huge, painful, destructive ways even as he has pulled himself together. I would never bring this up with him because I don't want to cause him pain when he has already experienced so much.
posted by Frowner at 8:16 AM on May 20, 2015 [7 favorites]
I know someone who has a terrible thing in his past - possibly worse than what you describe, a horrible situation that was not his fault (and I think given the culture around drinking and driving in the past and the fact that you don't even know that your uncle was drinking make that a fair comparison). It has shaped his subsequent life in huge, painful, destructive ways even as he has pulled himself together. I would never bring this up with him because I don't want to cause him pain when he has already experienced so much.
posted by Frowner at 8:16 AM on May 20, 2015 [7 favorites]
Very few of the people you meet in your life, however close you become to them, are going to volunteer their stories in full and unedited form. Most of us have things we don't want to talk about, and often the world is an easier place for it.
Your desire to know everything about a person who means a lot to you is understandable in a way, but not realistic. You've created a rift in your own mind between you and your uncle, one that he's completely unaware of; therefore the problem is yours, and not his. What happened all those years ago is filed away in his mind with all the private thoughts, inappropriate crushes, guilty memories and regrets that he never plans to share with anyone. The best thing you can do is to respect that.
posted by pipeski at 8:17 AM on May 20, 2015 [7 favorites]
Your desire to know everything about a person who means a lot to you is understandable in a way, but not realistic. You've created a rift in your own mind between you and your uncle, one that he's completely unaware of; therefore the problem is yours, and not his. What happened all those years ago is filed away in his mind with all the private thoughts, inappropriate crushes, guilty memories and regrets that he never plans to share with anyone. The best thing you can do is to respect that.
posted by pipeski at 8:17 AM on May 20, 2015 [7 favorites]
The timing and location and his age suggest that he might have been drinking that day but I don't know.
Exactly; you don't know. All the sleuthing you are doing appears to be confirming your speculations because you are not heeding those results that come up negative. Look how many times in your account there's a negative! And yet for whatever reason, you are piecing this story together in almost the most sinister light possible. And, as Frowner points out, you just happen to know your uncle was involved in something like this. You run into people every day with something in their past; you just don't know what it is.
People in your family are not obliged to spill all their secrets to you. Your parents and siblings are not; your grandparents, aunts and uncles certainly are not. I mean, I understand the feeling that people in the older generation (particularly) are holding out on you by not telling you stuff it seems like you would like to know. But even if a relative, for whatever reason, had a policy of being completely transparent with everyone, there would be things you wouldn't know. And you are not entitled to know them. I think the realization of that is part of what marks leaving childhood behind.
posted by BibiRose at 8:39 AM on May 20, 2015 [2 favorites]
Exactly; you don't know. All the sleuthing you are doing appears to be confirming your speculations because you are not heeding those results that come up negative. Look how many times in your account there's a negative! And yet for whatever reason, you are piecing this story together in almost the most sinister light possible. And, as Frowner points out, you just happen to know your uncle was involved in something like this. You run into people every day with something in their past; you just don't know what it is.
People in your family are not obliged to spill all their secrets to you. Your parents and siblings are not; your grandparents, aunts and uncles certainly are not. I mean, I understand the feeling that people in the older generation (particularly) are holding out on you by not telling you stuff it seems like you would like to know. But even if a relative, for whatever reason, had a policy of being completely transparent with everyone, there would be things you wouldn't know. And you are not entitled to know them. I think the realization of that is part of what marks leaving childhood behind.
posted by BibiRose at 8:39 AM on May 20, 2015 [2 favorites]
even if I learn that it's true I don't think I'd ever acknowledge it to my uncle, but it's a big enough issue that I want to learn the truth
Hopefully it's ok to quote from your previous AskMe as you linked to it. I think your initial impulse to never acknowledge it to him is right, so why do you now think you won't be able to get past it without saying something? Now that you think you know the "truth" why isn't it enough to leave it there? And bear in mind truth is subjective - you may have learned some facts but not context or how it impacted on him or his thoughts and feelings around it. If these are what you want to get to - that you want him to tell you how he felt about it all - than that is very intrusive. No one should be forced to open wounds to satisfy someone's curiosity, or somehow prove that they're still a "good" person because they did a "bad" thing but it's ok because they're suitably remorseful about it.
I agree with others that it might be useful to think about therapy. When your opinion of someone is shaken because it turns out that all is not what it seemed to be, that can cause some unsettling feelings. But it is your task to process that, rather than drag his skeletons out of a closet he's deliberately kept closed for half a century. Leave him in peace and try to find some way to make your own peace with it.
posted by billiebee at 8:39 AM on May 20, 2015
Hopefully it's ok to quote from your previous AskMe as you linked to it. I think your initial impulse to never acknowledge it to him is right, so why do you now think you won't be able to get past it without saying something? Now that you think you know the "truth" why isn't it enough to leave it there? And bear in mind truth is subjective - you may have learned some facts but not context or how it impacted on him or his thoughts and feelings around it. If these are what you want to get to - that you want him to tell you how he felt about it all - than that is very intrusive. No one should be forced to open wounds to satisfy someone's curiosity, or somehow prove that they're still a "good" person because they did a "bad" thing but it's ok because they're suitably remorseful about it.
I agree with others that it might be useful to think about therapy. When your opinion of someone is shaken because it turns out that all is not what it seemed to be, that can cause some unsettling feelings. But it is your task to process that, rather than drag his skeletons out of a closet he's deliberately kept closed for half a century. Leave him in peace and try to find some way to make your own peace with it.
posted by billiebee at 8:39 AM on May 20, 2015
How is it any of your business? I mean seriously. Would you like people digging up things from your past that hurt you just because they were curious?
posted by wwax at 8:49 AM on May 20, 2015 [6 favorites]
posted by wwax at 8:49 AM on May 20, 2015 [6 favorites]
What possible benefit could bringing this up now have? "Hey, uncle, remember how you killed your friend by accident? Crazy huh? Want to tell me all the details of this incredibly traumatic event that likely haunts you to this day, because I'm idly curious!"
The ONLY reason you want to ask about this is because it is titillating. It's a dirty, naughty family secret that you think makes YOU more interesting by proximity.
posted by showbiz_liz at 8:50 AM on May 20, 2015 [30 favorites]
The ONLY reason you want to ask about this is because it is titillating. It's a dirty, naughty family secret that you think makes YOU more interesting by proximity.
posted by showbiz_liz at 8:50 AM on May 20, 2015 [30 favorites]
This is about you, full stop. What is it that you generally believe about car accidents where the driver lived and a passenger died? As someone who lived on a curved road with two bad intersections, where several people died over decades, there is plenty for people to overcome from survivor guilt to PTSD and more. Same with Vietnam. You give every indication of having a good relationship with him, but no indication of a real connection for those two events. Bringing up a now-settled past runs a real risk of damaging the relationship and possibly damaging him if the sole focus is curiosity. It's likely to be interpreted as you don't trust him, and you've had decades to build trust based on all sorts of interactions that create the closeness you describe. We get a lot of cookie-cutter messages about people who have killed others, and we are only recently becoming more informed about how we can support Gulf War veterans and noticing the deep gaps in what was (not) provided to Vietnam veterans. He made it through, and your relationship is close, but likely not in the same way as his battle buddies. You'd have to military service in common with him to start that conversation. If he volunteers for veteran efforts, see if you can participate to get a better idea of that aspect of his life. You may find that it's a Holland to your (parenting world) France.
My hunch, and it's only that, is someone close to you, or an event, has raised questions about your trust by their own opinions. Should you, as a parent, trust this guy when there are stereotypes trumpeted to the masses raising fear and suspicion? Most families have that eye-brow-raise-and-smile relative that makes the kids laugh. You don't have to Revisit his personal history to create your sense of peace.
posted by childofTethys at 8:51 AM on May 20, 2015 [1 favorite]
My hunch, and it's only that, is someone close to you, or an event, has raised questions about your trust by their own opinions. Should you, as a parent, trust this guy when there are stereotypes trumpeted to the masses raising fear and suspicion? Most families have that eye-brow-raise-and-smile relative that makes the kids laugh. You don't have to Revisit his personal history to create your sense of peace.
posted by childofTethys at 8:51 AM on May 20, 2015 [1 favorite]
Oh, and looking at your previous question-- your other uncle telling the Big Family Secret without really knowing about it is engaging in gossip of the most destructive kind. Don't follow his example.
And, in my opinion, your uncle deserves thanks for his service, not judgment because there is some chance he was sent for punitive reasons. (But again, I think you are putting two plus two together and getting a dozen here.) My uncles didn't talk about their armed service. One of them saw a lot of combat, which most of my generation heard about from someone who'd shown up for the honor guard at his funeral service and who was in tears as he shook our hands. Would I have liked to know my uncle had this side to him? Yes, but it's very common that people don't talk about it. It wasn't even in his obituary outside of the dates of service.
posted by BibiRose at 8:52 AM on May 20, 2015 [3 favorites]
And, in my opinion, your uncle deserves thanks for his service, not judgment because there is some chance he was sent for punitive reasons. (But again, I think you are putting two plus two together and getting a dozen here.) My uncles didn't talk about their armed service. One of them saw a lot of combat, which most of my generation heard about from someone who'd shown up for the honor guard at his funeral service and who was in tears as he shook our hands. Would I have liked to know my uncle had this side to him? Yes, but it's very common that people don't talk about it. It wasn't even in his obituary outside of the dates of service.
posted by BibiRose at 8:52 AM on May 20, 2015 [3 favorites]
Whatever it was happened nearly 50 years ago. Leave it alone. This mystery is not yours to solve. If I had a much younger relative obsessing with something in my past, I'd drop that person like a red hot rock. Repeated Google searches? A military FOIA?? Calling the courthouse and police departments? Honestly, it's pretty creepy. I'd be really angry and feel completely violated. In 2010, you went on a big search for The Truth. Five years later, you are still trying to dig up old skeletons. What possible good can come out of this? Why do you think your curiosity is more important than his pretty clear desires? If you can't talk with him without constantly thinking about this incident (which you don't even know the truth about), then the problem is yours to fix. This isn't some kind of "my father had a secret family and now I think I have the sister I always wanted". This is some terrible event that doesn't involve you and may not have even happened. Best case scenario, his friend died in a car crash where he was the driver and then he had to go to freaking Vietnam. Worst case scenario, his friend died because of him and he had to go to freaking Vietnam and kill more people.
I'm guessing you aren't ex- or current military. Do you even know any other veterans? Talking about military service with civilians is hard enough. Talking about traumatic military service with civilians is even harder. Talking about Vietnam is even worse than that.
I honestly have no idea how he would react if I brought it up: when I have tried to talk to him about his time in Vietnam he has generally just deflected it.
You do know how he would react. He would try to deflect again and probably bail if you pushed and pushed. Drop this and treat him with respect.
I really would like to know more about it and to tell him that it doesn't change how I feel about him.
But it clearly already has changed how you feel about him.
But just me knowing this, and letting him know that I do, might jeopardize our relationship or might cause him to revisit some pain.
I'm sure it will jeopardize your relationship. And I'm sure it will cause him even more pain. Jesus. Let this go.
I will see him next week, and am not sure what to do.
If you can't see him and treat him with respect and just continue your previous relationship with him, you should not see him.
posted by Beti at 8:53 AM on May 20, 2015 [15 favorites]
I'm guessing you aren't ex- or current military. Do you even know any other veterans? Talking about military service with civilians is hard enough. Talking about traumatic military service with civilians is even harder. Talking about Vietnam is even worse than that.
I honestly have no idea how he would react if I brought it up: when I have tried to talk to him about his time in Vietnam he has generally just deflected it.
You do know how he would react. He would try to deflect again and probably bail if you pushed and pushed. Drop this and treat him with respect.
I really would like to know more about it and to tell him that it doesn't change how I feel about him.
But it clearly already has changed how you feel about him.
But just me knowing this, and letting him know that I do, might jeopardize our relationship or might cause him to revisit some pain.
I'm sure it will jeopardize your relationship. And I'm sure it will cause him even more pain. Jesus. Let this go.
I will see him next week, and am not sure what to do.
If you can't see him and treat him with respect and just continue your previous relationship with him, you should not see him.
posted by Beti at 8:53 AM on May 20, 2015 [15 favorites]
If you're going to see him next week, here is what you say to him. You say "I'm grateful I have a relationship with you, I really value your perspective and years of experience and I love hearing your stories, and I just wanted to let you know that. I love you."
posted by showbiz_liz at 8:56 AM on May 20, 2015 [5 favorites]
posted by showbiz_liz at 8:56 AM on May 20, 2015 [5 favorites]
So, this has been bugging you for at least the last 5 years?
What, exactly, if you brought it up with him, do you want him to say in response? Yes, I crashed a car 50 years ago, and my passenger died, and I don't like to talk about it?
Would that give you a sense of resolution, and if it didn't, what would?
Could you just *imagine* the above conversation, then let it go?
This is anonymous, but is there some information you are leaving out about why this bothers you so much? Have you confided things in your Uncle, do you suspect him of deliberately harming the passenger or keeping other secrets? There seems to be something missing here.
Finally, if you have been through all that, and given it has bugged you for 5 years, go ahead and mention it to him. It is a terrible idea, but clearly you aren't going to let it go, and if you think you are being awkward around him, then you probably are. So light a candle, clear the air and watch out for sparks. Mention it, but be prepared for this to not help anything, or for you to still not feel 'resolved' afterwards.
He may assume you already know.
posted by Elysum at 8:57 AM on May 20, 2015 [1 favorite]
What, exactly, if you brought it up with him, do you want him to say in response? Yes, I crashed a car 50 years ago, and my passenger died, and I don't like to talk about it?
Would that give you a sense of resolution, and if it didn't, what would?
Could you just *imagine* the above conversation, then let it go?
This is anonymous, but is there some information you are leaving out about why this bothers you so much? Have you confided things in your Uncle, do you suspect him of deliberately harming the passenger or keeping other secrets? There seems to be something missing here.
Finally, if you have been through all that, and given it has bugged you for 5 years, go ahead and mention it to him. It is a terrible idea, but clearly you aren't going to let it go, and if you think you are being awkward around him, then you probably are. So light a candle, clear the air and watch out for sparks. Mention it, but be prepared for this to not help anything, or for you to still not feel 'resolved' afterwards.
He may assume you already know.
posted by Elysum at 8:57 AM on May 20, 2015 [1 favorite]
And I guess I should respect that. But at the same, I feel like if I know this big thing, I will think of it whenever we interact and I never be able to talk with him honestly if I don't somehow acknowledge it.
Part of maturing as an adult is to begin to accept ambiguity and uncertainty, and rather than rushing to attempt to definitely answer all questions and getting solid footing in situations and reaching ultimate conclusions that you think will make you comfortable -- you instead just decide to drop things that aren't your business, not only for other people's sake, but yours as well. Ask yourself this: do you think that knowing whatever you think you need to know will solve all your life's problems and make you forever happy? It won't. So just let it go.
posted by nanook at 9:04 AM on May 20, 2015 [12 favorites]
Part of maturing as an adult is to begin to accept ambiguity and uncertainty, and rather than rushing to attempt to definitely answer all questions and getting solid footing in situations and reaching ultimate conclusions that you think will make you comfortable -- you instead just decide to drop things that aren't your business, not only for other people's sake, but yours as well. Ask yourself this: do you think that knowing whatever you think you need to know will solve all your life's problems and make you forever happy? It won't. So just let it go.
posted by nanook at 9:04 AM on May 20, 2015 [12 favorites]
jessamyn++
you are creepily obsessed with some "truth" that explains your uncle but the truth is he owes you nothing by way of information. Just love him & enjoy your short time with him on this earth. Sounds like he's been through enough.
Also consider the possibility that everyone you encounter has their secrets.
posted by St. Peepsburg at 9:05 AM on May 20, 2015 [3 favorites]
you are creepily obsessed with some "truth" that explains your uncle but the truth is he owes you nothing by way of information. Just love him & enjoy your short time with him on this earth. Sounds like he's been through enough.
Also consider the possibility that everyone you encounter has their secrets.
posted by St. Peepsburg at 9:05 AM on May 20, 2015 [3 favorites]
Back in 2010, I got military records from a FOIA request
Seriously? This is so creepy and intrusive and I feel very bad for your uncle and how this would make him feel if he were ever to find out. You need to let this go, your obsession with this is unsettling.
posted by poffin boffin at 9:07 AM on May 20, 2015 [45 favorites]
Seriously? This is so creepy and intrusive and I feel very bad for your uncle and how this would make him feel if he were ever to find out. You need to let this go, your obsession with this is unsettling.
posted by poffin boffin at 9:07 AM on May 20, 2015 [45 favorites]
As far as I can tell, the only reason you feel you need to bring it up is your own selfish reason: "I will think of it whenever we interact and I never be able to talk with him honestly if I don't somehow acknowledge it." That sentence is all about you.
There is nothing to gain from bringing this up except to make you feel better. This is not a good reason. Let it go and move on. Your uncle has; you can too.
posted by cgg at 9:07 AM on May 20, 2015 [1 favorite]
There is nothing to gain from bringing this up except to make you feel better. This is not a good reason. Let it go and move on. Your uncle has; you can too.
posted by cgg at 9:07 AM on May 20, 2015 [1 favorite]
There is something going on here besides your uncle because you're coming across as seriously stalker-ific.
Five years +?
FOIA?
Even if this were your mom or little brother it would be way past reasonable behavior.
posted by small_ruminant at 9:11 AM on May 20, 2015 [3 favorites]
Five years +?
FOIA?
Even if this were your mom or little brother it would be way past reasonable behavior.
posted by small_ruminant at 9:11 AM on May 20, 2015 [3 favorites]
"I will think of it whenever we interact and I never be able to talk with him honestly if I don't somehow acknowledge it."
You should think about what 'honesty' actually means to you. Why must it include 'blurting out whatever uncomfortable facts I happen to know'?
"Plenty of people like the idea of total honesty and sharing, but they can't really deliver the goods: They only want to express their own emotions and needs but won’t tolerate anyone else's. Someone will say he wants a communing of souls, but what he really wants is control over an out-of-control world. He can't tolerate caring about someone else unless that person abides by certain rules of intimate engagement — rules that shift and change constantly based on his ultrasensitive needs and ever-changing moods [...] Instead of listening and respecting your boundaries, he's pushing you to say more, and then creating trouble over what you reveal. That's not emotional transparency. It's emotional terrorism."
posted by showbiz_liz at 9:14 AM on May 20, 2015 [4 favorites]
You should think about what 'honesty' actually means to you. Why must it include 'blurting out whatever uncomfortable facts I happen to know'?
"Plenty of people like the idea of total honesty and sharing, but they can't really deliver the goods: They only want to express their own emotions and needs but won’t tolerate anyone else's. Someone will say he wants a communing of souls, but what he really wants is control over an out-of-control world. He can't tolerate caring about someone else unless that person abides by certain rules of intimate engagement — rules that shift and change constantly based on his ultrasensitive needs and ever-changing moods [...] Instead of listening and respecting your boundaries, he's pushing you to say more, and then creating trouble over what you reveal. That's not emotional transparency. It's emotional terrorism."
posted by showbiz_liz at 9:14 AM on May 20, 2015 [4 favorites]
As the son of a military veteran who served 3 tours in Vietnam, I have to agree that this is really none of your business. My father spent a lot of time in the Vietnam War, and to this day has never (to my knowledge) spoken of it to anyone, even when asked directly.
Would I like to know more about his time there? Certainly. I've always had a love for military history, mainly because of my father. But I realize that he may have done things during that time that he may not be particularly proud of, and as one poster pointed out above - my curiosity does not trump his right to privacy.
posted by Telpethoron at 9:22 AM on May 20, 2015 [1 favorite]
Would I like to know more about his time there? Certainly. I've always had a love for military history, mainly because of my father. But I realize that he may have done things during that time that he may not be particularly proud of, and as one poster pointed out above - my curiosity does not trump his right to privacy.
posted by Telpethoron at 9:22 AM on May 20, 2015 [1 favorite]
In dysfunctional families, there are Golden Children and Black Sheep (and more). The comment from the brother makes me wonder if the disclosure and follow-on inquiry is to remind your uncle of the pecking order....
posted by childofTethys at 9:24 AM on May 20, 2015
posted by childofTethys at 9:24 AM on May 20, 2015
I don't know that I have anything to add that hasn't already been said more eloquently, so I write here in the hope that another voice in the chorus might help in some small degree to persuade you.
Leave it alone.
Stop.
That newspaper article?
Don't read it again.
Your FOIA stuff?
Destroy it.
If the part where you're not respecting your uncle's privacy doesn't convince you, maybe the part where this is clearly not emotionally or psychologically healthy for you will.
posted by box at 9:40 AM on May 20, 2015 [5 favorites]
Leave it alone.
Stop.
That newspaper article?
Don't read it again.
Your FOIA stuff?
Destroy it.
If the part where you're not respecting your uncle's privacy doesn't convince you, maybe the part where this is clearly not emotionally or psychologically healthy for you will.
posted by box at 9:40 AM on May 20, 2015 [5 favorites]
You know, OP, I don't think you have to feel like a horrible person for doing this. There's stalking with a capital S and then there is a kind of behavior that is very easy to do thanks to the internet, and highly rewarding in an intermittent way that makes it addictive. It also sounds like your family culture may accommodate a lot of gossip and snooping. I know mine does. If one of my aunts saw your post, they'd be like, "Good job!"
Make no mistake, this behind the back kind of thing hurts people and it destroys relationships. My aunt who is the worst about this has no children living nearby, and some of her family deliberately lie to her to throw her off track. I walked out of her house one day and have never gone back, after she subjected me to a particularly ruthless interrogation about another family member. Don't end up being that person in your family! And if the others do this, try to set them on a better path with your example.
posted by BibiRose at 10:07 AM on May 20, 2015 [4 favorites]
Make no mistake, this behind the back kind of thing hurts people and it destroys relationships. My aunt who is the worst about this has no children living nearby, and some of her family deliberately lie to her to throw her off track. I walked out of her house one day and have never gone back, after she subjected me to a particularly ruthless interrogation about another family member. Don't end up being that person in your family! And if the others do this, try to set them on a better path with your example.
posted by BibiRose at 10:07 AM on May 20, 2015 [4 favorites]
No good can come from this. Do you think if you suddenly present your uncle with all this "evidence" you have collected, he will fill you in on all the full story with all the details? Even in that highly unlikely scenario, there is still nothing to be gained.
I will see him next week, and am not sure what to do.
After reading this thread, I hope you have a good idea what NOT to do.
I go through life assuming that if people want me to know the intimate details of their life, they will tell me. Other than that, there is no need to dig deeper.
posted by futureisunwritten at 10:14 AM on May 20, 2015 [1 favorite]
I will see him next week, and am not sure what to do.
After reading this thread, I hope you have a good idea what NOT to do.
I go through life assuming that if people want me to know the intimate details of their life, they will tell me. Other than that, there is no need to dig deeper.
posted by futureisunwritten at 10:14 AM on May 20, 2015 [1 favorite]
What you've done in dragging up his files and what you'd like to do by bringing it up- it's just bang out of order. This is none of your business and it's not a "family secret" it's his private experience. Leave him alone.
posted by flink at 10:19 AM on May 20, 2015 [3 favorites]
posted by flink at 10:19 AM on May 20, 2015 [3 favorites]
Either there is more to this entire story than you are telling us, or you need to see a therapist about your behavior.
posted by aramaic at 10:21 AM on May 20, 2015 [5 favorites]
posted by aramaic at 10:21 AM on May 20, 2015 [5 favorites]
This sounds to me like a case where you've always been curious about this and as time passed you decided to investigate it yourself. The problem with official documents is, nuance is absent. So you're reading dry info and it's feeding your curiosity rather than slowing it. nthing advice to drop this.
It's his personal history which he lives with every day and clearly doesn't want to rehash after all these years. The best gift you can give him and your relationship is to love him for who he is, warts and all, and to drop your investigations, they won't answer your questions and may drive a wedge between you and your beloved Uncle. I think he'd probably be really hurt if he knew about this, so stop digging around for dirt on him if you really love him.
posted by RichardHenryYarbo at 10:51 AM on May 20, 2015 [2 favorites]
It's his personal history which he lives with every day and clearly doesn't want to rehash after all these years. The best gift you can give him and your relationship is to love him for who he is, warts and all, and to drop your investigations, they won't answer your questions and may drive a wedge between you and your beloved Uncle. I think he'd probably be really hurt if he knew about this, so stop digging around for dirt on him if you really love him.
posted by RichardHenryYarbo at 10:51 AM on May 20, 2015 [2 favorites]
→ I have been very close with him most of my lifeWell, expect that to change for the worse if you bring it up.
You keep saying you don't know what to do with this information, but it's clear you know fine well: drop it. There is no kind way to bring this up with your uncle, and mentioning it is entirely for your own selfish reasons. This is not worth losing a close relative over.
posted by scruss at 10:53 AM on May 20, 2015 [4 favorites]
The basic facts matched what I had been told many years before
So that's settled then, no? What else would there be to know? How guilty he feels or doesn't feel about it all?
You might also ask yourself why you wrote all this stuff about Vietnam here. Is there a real connection? I can't see one.
posted by Namlit at 10:56 AM on May 20, 2015
So that's settled then, no? What else would there be to know? How guilty he feels or doesn't feel about it all?
You might also ask yourself why you wrote all this stuff about Vietnam here. Is there a real connection? I can't see one.
posted by Namlit at 10:56 AM on May 20, 2015
...apart from this enlisting thing which (reading both questions) still is, simply, some rumor and none of your concern.
posted by Namlit at 10:59 AM on May 20, 2015
posted by Namlit at 10:59 AM on May 20, 2015
But at the same, I feel like if I know this big thing, I will think of it whenever we interact and I never be able to talk with him honestly if I don't somehow acknowledge it.
Instead of reopening woulds that are not yours and potentially deeply hurting someone you claim to love, channel your concerns into examining why you feel so entitled to trample over boundaries and very creepily investigate the private and traumatic details of someone else's life. None of this affects you. NONE OF IT. It sounds like your relative experienced a major trauma as a young man and then, for whatever reason, was compelled to participate in a war that was extremely damaging for many of the participants. All at an age where many people are not even fully formed adults.
Stop this inquiry now. Never mention it. Stop prying into other people's histories. This is such an unhealthy pursuit and you should spend some time figuring out why you're engaging in this behavior. It's inappropriate and potentially extremely cruel.
posted by quince at 11:45 AM on May 20, 2015 [5 favorites]
Instead of reopening woulds that are not yours and potentially deeply hurting someone you claim to love, channel your concerns into examining why you feel so entitled to trample over boundaries and very creepily investigate the private and traumatic details of someone else's life. None of this affects you. NONE OF IT. It sounds like your relative experienced a major trauma as a young man and then, for whatever reason, was compelled to participate in a war that was extremely damaging for many of the participants. All at an age where many people are not even fully formed adults.
Stop this inquiry now. Never mention it. Stop prying into other people's histories. This is such an unhealthy pursuit and you should spend some time figuring out why you're engaging in this behavior. It's inappropriate and potentially extremely cruel.
posted by quince at 11:45 AM on May 20, 2015 [5 favorites]
What? No. Under no circumstances should you bring this up. It is not your tragedy, and to bring it up just turns this into some kind of icky bystander thing.
FWIW we also have an uncle who killed someone in a RTA, and while one of his kids mentioned it, never in a million fucking years would I dream of opening this topic with him.
No. Do not. It's nothing to do with you; move on.
posted by DarlingBri at 12:10 PM on May 20, 2015 [1 favorite]
FWIW we also have an uncle who killed someone in a RTA, and while one of his kids mentioned it, never in a million fucking years would I dream of opening this topic with him.
No. Do not. It's nothing to do with you; move on.
posted by DarlingBri at 12:10 PM on May 20, 2015 [1 favorite]
Reading back over your post, the thing that really jumps out at me is all the the, let's call a spade a spade, stalking you have been doing.
You say you "got military records from a FOIA request" --- excuse me, but it's actually illegal for you to have gotten an individual's personnel records (other than your own) for someone who is still alive, FOIA or not. So: did you lie and tell the records center he was dead? Did you also tell them you were his next of kin?
You have spent at least five long years googling the man, you've hunted up court records and old newspapers and obituaries for someone you have zero links to, plus tried to browbeat your uncle to Reveal All to you, just because why? You're curious? You seem to think that something that has no connection to you, something that was over and done with before you were born, is somehow important to you. It is not.
But there is one thing you're absolutely right about: he doesn't want to talk about his past, and you should respect that.
posted by easily confused at 12:28 PM on May 20, 2015 [8 favorites]
You say you "got military records from a FOIA request" --- excuse me, but it's actually illegal for you to have gotten an individual's personnel records (other than your own) for someone who is still alive, FOIA or not. So: did you lie and tell the records center he was dead? Did you also tell them you were his next of kin?
You have spent at least five long years googling the man, you've hunted up court records and old newspapers and obituaries for someone you have zero links to, plus tried to browbeat your uncle to Reveal All to you, just because why? You're curious? You seem to think that something that has no connection to you, something that was over and done with before you were born, is somehow important to you. It is not.
But there is one thing you're absolutely right about: he doesn't want to talk about his past, and you should respect that.
posted by easily confused at 12:28 PM on May 20, 2015 [8 favorites]
Mod note: This is a response from an anonymous answerer.
I'm on the other side of this. I have a deep, dark secret. There was an incident in my neighborhood growing up that my brother and mom (and probably dad, before he died) almost certainly suspect me of being involved in, which I was, and are likely dying to know for sure. I have only mentioned it a couple of times, and only to strangers.posted by cortex (staff) at 12:30 PM on May 20, 2015 [12 favorites]
Every five years or so my brother will bring it up or allude to it obliquely, always at family events. It may be to open a discussion, it may be to provide a safe space to come clean, it may just be to innocuously bring it up as, 'huh, remember that crazy thing?' Regardless, it makes me feel like crap every time. While family dynamics and emotional safety, etc. have a lot to do with this, I carry enough guilt as it is without having to worry about the reaction to my assuaging it.
What do you want him to do? Proclaim YES I WAS THE DRIVER IN AN ACCIDENT AND KILLED MY FRIEND AND IT HAS MADE ME FEEL TERRIBLE MY WHOLE LIFE?
REally your best case scenario for bringing it up and having him talk about it isn't productive in any way and is probably damaging so you should butt out. It's not like its some deep dark secret - there's info in newspapers and other documents. He's well aware other people know about it. And you should not be so tone deaf as to not recognize that it's not your place to play therapist and pull it out of him during a kumbaya session.
posted by WeekendJen at 2:07 PM on May 20, 2015 [3 favorites]
REally your best case scenario for bringing it up and having him talk about it isn't productive in any way and is probably damaging so you should butt out. It's not like its some deep dark secret - there's info in newspapers and other documents. He's well aware other people know about it. And you should not be so tone deaf as to not recognize that it's not your place to play therapist and pull it out of him during a kumbaya session.
posted by WeekendJen at 2:07 PM on May 20, 2015 [3 favorites]
Good god, you've already massively invaded his privacy by dredging up all of this information, and that's still not enough, so you'd like to put an old man through an emotional ringer to satiate your own personal curiosity?
Not acceptable.
He does not seem to be a danger to himself, you, or your family. That might be the only reason for someone to ever want to bring such past trauma up. Otherwise, your discomfort doesn't translate to an obligation on your uncle's part to uncover his own past life.
posted by Everydayville at 2:51 PM on May 20, 2015 [5 favorites]
Not acceptable.
He does not seem to be a danger to himself, you, or your family. That might be the only reason for someone to ever want to bring such past trauma up. Otherwise, your discomfort doesn't translate to an obligation on your uncle's part to uncover his own past life.
posted by Everydayville at 2:51 PM on May 20, 2015 [5 favorites]
OP, are you are engaging in all of this self-styled private investigator stuff here as a way of avoiding dealing with something in your own life? What happened years ago is his personal business, is not about you, and has ZERO to do with you and yours. Are you or your children at risk around him? Hell no, or you wouldn't have allowed your uncle to remain close with all of you. Demonstrate some good self-care here and stop this shit right here and now, please. A visit with a therapist might be in order to figure out why you've been obsessed with this issue for the last 5 years.
"I feel like if he has never talked about this - to ANYBODY, as far ask I can tell - he doesn't want to now and would prefer to carry the secret with him until he dies. And I guess I should respect that."
You just answered your own question there. Yes, yes, you should respect that!
"But at the same, I feel like if I know this big thing, I will think of it whenever we interact and I never be able to talk with him honestly if I don't somehow acknowledge it."
"Honesty" is a trait you say you value? Really? Even though you've already been playing sleuth behind the man's back for the better part of 5 years now? Your own actions have shown that you are fully capable of interacting normally with your uncle without needing to bring this up. Leave well enough alone, and show some respect.
posted by hush at 4:44 PM on May 20, 2015 [4 favorites]
"I feel like if he has never talked about this - to ANYBODY, as far ask I can tell - he doesn't want to now and would prefer to carry the secret with him until he dies. And I guess I should respect that."
You just answered your own question there. Yes, yes, you should respect that!
"But at the same, I feel like if I know this big thing, I will think of it whenever we interact and I never be able to talk with him honestly if I don't somehow acknowledge it."
"Honesty" is a trait you say you value? Really? Even though you've already been playing sleuth behind the man's back for the better part of 5 years now? Your own actions have shown that you are fully capable of interacting normally with your uncle without needing to bring this up. Leave well enough alone, and show some respect.
posted by hush at 4:44 PM on May 20, 2015 [4 favorites]
You should not ask your uncle about something that happened long ago, that he doesn't want to talk about, and that didn't involve you, because you will likely cause your uncle pain by talking about a painful thing.
In other words, it's something for (at best) your benefit that harms another.
posted by zippy at 5:30 PM on May 20, 2015 [1 favorite]
In other words, it's something for (at best) your benefit that harms another.
posted by zippy at 5:30 PM on May 20, 2015 [1 favorite]
Others have said similar things in slightly different ways, but let me put it to you this way:
what do you think you might find out if you ask him about it? You already know the answers.
Are you going to ask "how did that tragic accident happen?" The answer is that it was a combination of human error and bad luck.
Are you going to ask "how did you feel about it? How do you feel about it now?" The answer is that he felt horrible about it, and he still feels horrible about it.
In my profession (as an emergency doctor) I not only see a lot of people on the worst days of their lives, I also see a lot of people who have had terrible things happen to them and they have to tell me about them, because I have to ask why they are depressed or suicidal. Seems kind of interesting on the surface of things, right? Getting to see into the darkest corners of other people's lives? Getting to hear things that no one else hears?
It isn't. It's one of the worst parts of my job. What I have heard is a burden that I have to carry for the rest of my life. What I have heard, I can never un-hear (although trying not to think about it helps, really, in the long term), and I cannot tell any of my support system (family/friends) about these things, not only because it's a privacy violation, but also because, even if I changed the details, I don't want to pass that burden onto anyone else. Heck, I don't even know the people involved in these incidents and they still keep me up at night. How people can live with themselves after doing something awful. How inhumane human beings can be to one another. The incredibly bad luck a person can have. I've got examples flashing through my mind - a parent who accidentally kills their child, a person who assaults a toddler - but I can't tell the actual stories. I have a therapist who I don't see regularly, just so I get those things off my chest without hurting anyone else. If you can't get this out of your mind, perhaps you might want to get a therapist to talk to about it too.
Years ago you picked up this burden. You're carrying it now, and you'll carry it always - why add to the weight?
posted by treehorn+bunny at 7:04 PM on May 20, 2015 [8 favorites]
what do you think you might find out if you ask him about it? You already know the answers.
Are you going to ask "how did that tragic accident happen?" The answer is that it was a combination of human error and bad luck.
Are you going to ask "how did you feel about it? How do you feel about it now?" The answer is that he felt horrible about it, and he still feels horrible about it.
In my profession (as an emergency doctor) I not only see a lot of people on the worst days of their lives, I also see a lot of people who have had terrible things happen to them and they have to tell me about them, because I have to ask why they are depressed or suicidal. Seems kind of interesting on the surface of things, right? Getting to see into the darkest corners of other people's lives? Getting to hear things that no one else hears?
It isn't. It's one of the worst parts of my job. What I have heard is a burden that I have to carry for the rest of my life. What I have heard, I can never un-hear (although trying not to think about it helps, really, in the long term), and I cannot tell any of my support system (family/friends) about these things, not only because it's a privacy violation, but also because, even if I changed the details, I don't want to pass that burden onto anyone else. Heck, I don't even know the people involved in these incidents and they still keep me up at night. How people can live with themselves after doing something awful. How inhumane human beings can be to one another. The incredibly bad luck a person can have. I've got examples flashing through my mind - a parent who accidentally kills their child, a person who assaults a toddler - but I can't tell the actual stories. I have a therapist who I don't see regularly, just so I get those things off my chest without hurting anyone else. If you can't get this out of your mind, perhaps you might want to get a therapist to talk to about it too.
Years ago you picked up this burden. You're carrying it now, and you'll carry it always - why add to the weight?
posted by treehorn+bunny at 7:04 PM on May 20, 2015 [8 favorites]
I've never had anything as traumatic in my life as a car accident where a friend died or military service in a conflict known for the number of casualties and survivors with PTSD. I have, however, had a few incidents in my life, or situations, that I would like to get over and never have to talk about again.
What you have to understand is that people will cut ties with family members, friends, or communities in order to stop being reminded of things that bother them from the past. Having people around you who know what happened, and who may bring it up or even subtly remind you of it in some way when you're trying to live your life, is painful.
The fact that he has you, a relatively close family member who is close to him but, to his knowledge, knows nothing about this and will never bring it up, could be an amazing gift in itself. You have provided him with a family that loves him for who he is today. Don't take that from him.
posted by mikeh at 8:01 AM on May 21, 2015 [9 favorites]
What you have to understand is that people will cut ties with family members, friends, or communities in order to stop being reminded of things that bother them from the past. Having people around you who know what happened, and who may bring it up or even subtly remind you of it in some way when you're trying to live your life, is painful.
The fact that he has you, a relatively close family member who is close to him but, to his knowledge, knows nothing about this and will never bring it up, could be an amazing gift in itself. You have provided him with a family that loves him for who he is today. Don't take that from him.
posted by mikeh at 8:01 AM on May 21, 2015 [9 favorites]
« Older Stop popping up when I'm about to switch the tab! | I have the parachute; when do I jump? Newer »
This thread is closed to new comments.
posted by thelonius at 7:29 AM on May 20, 2015 [41 favorites]