Dealing with evangelical family members
April 2, 2015 3:45 AM Subscribe
Hi wonderful ask commenters, I’m seeking advice especially from people who’ve tried to get along with religiously conservative family members.
My family background: I have 3 siblings – two brothers who are evangelical Christians and a twin sister who isn’t. I’m on great terms with my sis, like my brothers in many ways, but am at the end of my rope with them. My father passed away 2 months ago – he came out as gay when we were younger and this has created a lot of tension in the family.
The immediate issue I’m facing is that my father got married a month before he died in February (brothers did not attend the wedding), and his new spouse asked how my evangelical brothers would refer to him, especially how they would introduce him at my father’s upcoming memorial service. Both brothers know my father and new stepfather preferred to be known as each other’s “spouse” and that my new stepfather prefers to be introduced with the terms “stepfather” or "father's spouse".
Problem is, my brothers don’t want to use “father’s spouse” or “stepfather”, but use “partner” instead. This might sound small, but in my experience people attach significance to such things. If it were no big deal, my brothers would just use the terms they’ve been requested to use.
More background: I see my brothers’ latest decision as part of a longer-term pattern of failing to treat the non-evangelical side of the family with full respect. In addition to not attending my father’s wedding, they wouldn’t display pictures of him with his then-partner, wouldn’t stay overnight at their house, and so on. I feel I’ve also been subject to disrespect when my older brother bypassed my strenuous objections to mentioning pro-life and anti-gay marriage issues in his eulogy at my mother’s funeral. Five years later, I still feel disrespected by having my wishes (and what I felt were my mother's wishes) ignored on that occasion.
From my vantage, my family has been on good terms in large part because non-evangelical family has swallowed a series of undermining actions and insults from my evangelical brothers. I’m interested in changing this if I can but would like advice.
So here’s my question: is implementing a tit-for-tat policy a good idea? My thought right now is to tell the evangelical side of the family that I won’t acknowledge their marital relations (my brothers both have wives) until they acknowledge my father’s and my stepfather’s, and thus will refer to their wives as their “partners,” which is the term they’ve selected for my stepfather.
I’m also wondering whether it’s OK to inform my uncles and cousins about my brother’s decision and my disagreement. This could have the effect of pressuring/shaming them a bit as my father’s extended family isn’t evangelical and wouldn’t approve of my brothers’ actions. Again, that would be some tit-for-tat.
I hope I’m not just out for revenge -- I'd like to hold a mirror up to my brothers in the hopes that they eventually change their behavior at least somewhat. Since just taking the high road doesn’t seem to be improving the situation, and moreover feels like constant appeasement that creates resentment in me and my sis, I’m willing to try giving them the experience of being undermined and disrespected in case it helps them appreciate how non-evangelical members have been experiencing their actions.
The downsides are that this could further poison the well of family relations and jeopardize the good relationships I have with my brothers’ 12 children. I get along well with my nieces and nephews and definitely value my relationships with them.
On the other hand, the status quo isn’t working for me, so I’m willing to try something new, even if it results in my brothers and I being on worse terms. Does tit-for-tat sound like a reasonable next move, askmefi, or should I do something else. If something else, what?
Thanks in advance to anyone who shares their thoughts!
My family background: I have 3 siblings – two brothers who are evangelical Christians and a twin sister who isn’t. I’m on great terms with my sis, like my brothers in many ways, but am at the end of my rope with them. My father passed away 2 months ago – he came out as gay when we were younger and this has created a lot of tension in the family.
The immediate issue I’m facing is that my father got married a month before he died in February (brothers did not attend the wedding), and his new spouse asked how my evangelical brothers would refer to him, especially how they would introduce him at my father’s upcoming memorial service. Both brothers know my father and new stepfather preferred to be known as each other’s “spouse” and that my new stepfather prefers to be introduced with the terms “stepfather” or "father's spouse".
Problem is, my brothers don’t want to use “father’s spouse” or “stepfather”, but use “partner” instead. This might sound small, but in my experience people attach significance to such things. If it were no big deal, my brothers would just use the terms they’ve been requested to use.
More background: I see my brothers’ latest decision as part of a longer-term pattern of failing to treat the non-evangelical side of the family with full respect. In addition to not attending my father’s wedding, they wouldn’t display pictures of him with his then-partner, wouldn’t stay overnight at their house, and so on. I feel I’ve also been subject to disrespect when my older brother bypassed my strenuous objections to mentioning pro-life and anti-gay marriage issues in his eulogy at my mother’s funeral. Five years later, I still feel disrespected by having my wishes (and what I felt were my mother's wishes) ignored on that occasion.
From my vantage, my family has been on good terms in large part because non-evangelical family has swallowed a series of undermining actions and insults from my evangelical brothers. I’m interested in changing this if I can but would like advice.
So here’s my question: is implementing a tit-for-tat policy a good idea? My thought right now is to tell the evangelical side of the family that I won’t acknowledge their marital relations (my brothers both have wives) until they acknowledge my father’s and my stepfather’s, and thus will refer to their wives as their “partners,” which is the term they’ve selected for my stepfather.
I’m also wondering whether it’s OK to inform my uncles and cousins about my brother’s decision and my disagreement. This could have the effect of pressuring/shaming them a bit as my father’s extended family isn’t evangelical and wouldn’t approve of my brothers’ actions. Again, that would be some tit-for-tat.
I hope I’m not just out for revenge -- I'd like to hold a mirror up to my brothers in the hopes that they eventually change their behavior at least somewhat. Since just taking the high road doesn’t seem to be improving the situation, and moreover feels like constant appeasement that creates resentment in me and my sis, I’m willing to try giving them the experience of being undermined and disrespected in case it helps them appreciate how non-evangelical members have been experiencing their actions.
The downsides are that this could further poison the well of family relations and jeopardize the good relationships I have with my brothers’ 12 children. I get along well with my nieces and nephews and definitely value my relationships with them.
On the other hand, the status quo isn’t working for me, so I’m willing to try something new, even if it results in my brothers and I being on worse terms. Does tit-for-tat sound like a reasonable next move, askmefi, or should I do something else. If something else, what?
Thanks in advance to anyone who shares their thoughts!
Is your question specifically about your brothers using the term partner versus spouse or stepfather at the memorial or overall?
If overall, consider your longterm goals. I doubt not acknowledging their marriages is going to do anything for you.
If about the memorial, some might say their use of the term partner is a good compromise. Is the term being used in something official or is this just how they refer to him when speaking to people? Either way, do as much as you can to make stepfather feel included and refer to him in a way that makes you feel good.
posted by k8t at 4:10 AM on April 2, 2015
If overall, consider your longterm goals. I doubt not acknowledging their marriages is going to do anything for you.
If about the memorial, some might say their use of the term partner is a good compromise. Is the term being used in something official or is this just how they refer to him when speaking to people? Either way, do as much as you can to make stepfather feel included and refer to him in a way that makes you feel good.
posted by k8t at 4:10 AM on April 2, 2015
Do not go tit for tat. It serves nothing.
You can not change their hearts with mean spirited actions. If you want your brothers to change, you have to act out of love. In the long run, you will do more to change them if you find ways for them to get to know your father's spouse (and understand the value of the marriage), than you will by having an argument over a word.
posted by Flood at 4:13 AM on April 2, 2015
You can not change their hearts with mean spirited actions. If you want your brothers to change, you have to act out of love. In the long run, you will do more to change them if you find ways for them to get to know your father's spouse (and understand the value of the marriage), than you will by having an argument over a word.
posted by Flood at 4:13 AM on April 2, 2015
taking the high road... feels like constant appeasement that creates resentment in me and my sis
What are you doing that feels like appeasement? Are you letting your brothers do all the introducing, so that their terms become the terms? You are free to refer to your dad's spouse as his spouse, and in your position that's what I'd do. You don't get to dictate what your brothers say, no matter how right you feel you are. People -- some people, at least -- will notice the contrast between what you and your brothers are saying, and they will have their own thoughts and opinions. You have to let them.
Sorry for your loss.
posted by jon1270 at 4:24 AM on April 2, 2015 [12 favorites]
What are you doing that feels like appeasement? Are you letting your brothers do all the introducing, so that their terms become the terms? You are free to refer to your dad's spouse as his spouse, and in your position that's what I'd do. You don't get to dictate what your brothers say, no matter how right you feel you are. People -- some people, at least -- will notice the contrast between what you and your brothers are saying, and they will have their own thoughts and opinions. You have to let them.
Sorry for your loss.
posted by jon1270 at 4:24 AM on April 2, 2015 [12 favorites]
Response by poster: What are you doing that feels like appeasement?
Hopefully answering a question isn't thread sitting -- systematically treating evangelical family with more respect than they treat me or than they treat other family feels like appeasement.
E.g., no family boycotted their weddings (I disagree with all kinds of stuff that happens at evangelical churches), no family has refused to fully acknowledge their marital relations, etc.
So to me it feels like I experience/witness insults and undermining behavior while doing nothing other than trying to take the high road and grading them on a curve -- that's pretty good *for an evangelical*. This has been the pattern for decades and the resentments are building up.
I really appreciate the comments so far!
posted by airing nerdy laundry at 4:38 AM on April 2, 2015
Hopefully answering a question isn't thread sitting -- systematically treating evangelical family with more respect than they treat me or than they treat other family feels like appeasement.
E.g., no family boycotted their weddings (I disagree with all kinds of stuff that happens at evangelical churches), no family has refused to fully acknowledge their marital relations, etc.
So to me it feels like I experience/witness insults and undermining behavior while doing nothing other than trying to take the high road and grading them on a curve -- that's pretty good *for an evangelical*. This has been the pattern for decades and the resentments are building up.
I really appreciate the comments so far!
posted by airing nerdy laundry at 4:38 AM on April 2, 2015
Is "partner" that unreasonable? It acknowledges their relationship’s importance to your father after all. It’s also how my parents used to introduce each other, so perhaps I’m biased. I also know I wouldn’t personally feel uncomfortable as an adult introducing someone else as a step-anything if I’d never had that personal family relationship with them had one of my parents re-married in later life.
But this isn’t really about specific terms is it? It’s about the fact that your brothers’ religious convictions mean that they don’t respect your beliefs, nor your father’s life as he chose to live it. I’d simply ignore them entirely, and use whatever terms I liked during both the memorial service and elsewhere. People will get the message.
I’m sorry for your loss.
posted by pharm at 4:39 AM on April 2, 2015 [2 favorites]
But this isn’t really about specific terms is it? It’s about the fact that your brothers’ religious convictions mean that they don’t respect your beliefs, nor your father’s life as he chose to live it. I’d simply ignore them entirely, and use whatever terms I liked during both the memorial service and elsewhere. People will get the message.
I’m sorry for your loss.
posted by pharm at 4:39 AM on April 2, 2015 [2 favorites]
Play the long game instead of going tit-for-tat now, be the kind, wonderful, loving aunt to a dozen younger people that may well come to you for guidance and support when they're older.
posted by pointystick at 4:45 AM on April 2, 2015 [27 favorites]
posted by pointystick at 4:45 AM on April 2, 2015 [27 favorites]
You need to realise that you have no control over these people. No matter how much it pisses you off, you are really unlikely to change their position one iota. At best, you can make them refrain from being such obvious bigots in your company (by leaving the room whenever they are offensive). You have written that status quo isn’t working for you, but your only viable solution is to avoid these toxic people and move on with your life.
Best of luck!
posted by kisch mokusch at 5:03 AM on April 2, 2015 [2 favorites]
Best of luck!
posted by kisch mokusch at 5:03 AM on April 2, 2015 [2 favorites]
"Play the long game instead of going tit-for-tat now, be the kind, wonderful, loving aunt to a dozen younger people that may well come to you for guidance and support when they're older."
That was my strategy within my family and I'm totally enjoying the fruits of it right now. I am the coolest aunt that all the teens in the family love. It's so fun (and satisfying) to be able to give them a different perspective on life.
posted by catrae at 5:06 AM on April 2, 2015 [11 favorites]
That was my strategy within my family and I'm totally enjoying the fruits of it right now. I am the coolest aunt that all the teens in the family love. It's so fun (and satisfying) to be able to give them a different perspective on life.
posted by catrae at 5:06 AM on April 2, 2015 [11 favorites]
Best answer: In my family, the parts of the family who are like this would not be moved by any sort of retaliatory measure. If anything, they would take it as a sign that we heathens are even more heathen and doomed than they thought, and they need to really double down on evangelizing at us as hard as possible. I can't see it going anywhere good.
Distancing where possible, being polite but allowing no real intimacy when unavoidable, and trying to stay at least on the periphery of the kids' lives to provide them an alternate viewpoint and eventual escape route should they need it, has been the best strategy for us.
In your case, I think I would do my best to counteract in a positive way - any chance YOU have to do introductions or talk about your father's spouse, do so in the terms he and your father wanted, warmly, and in a manner that clearly shows you fully support their marriage. If you can find a way to be the one who does as much of that introduction stuff as possible do it. If you can recruit other likeminded family members to the cause, do it. I wouldn't go around calling every family member you otherwise never talk to, but if there are people you are talking to anyway as part of the arrangements or just to talk with them, I think it would be reasonable to say something like "hey, this is a thing that's going on, and I'm sure our stepfather would really appreciate it if you be supportive of their marriage when you speak about them."
posted by Stacey at 5:23 AM on April 2, 2015 [11 favorites]
Distancing where possible, being polite but allowing no real intimacy when unavoidable, and trying to stay at least on the periphery of the kids' lives to provide them an alternate viewpoint and eventual escape route should they need it, has been the best strategy for us.
In your case, I think I would do my best to counteract in a positive way - any chance YOU have to do introductions or talk about your father's spouse, do so in the terms he and your father wanted, warmly, and in a manner that clearly shows you fully support their marriage. If you can find a way to be the one who does as much of that introduction stuff as possible do it. If you can recruit other likeminded family members to the cause, do it. I wouldn't go around calling every family member you otherwise never talk to, but if there are people you are talking to anyway as part of the arrangements or just to talk with them, I think it would be reasonable to say something like "hey, this is a thing that's going on, and I'm sure our stepfather would really appreciate it if you be supportive of their marriage when you speak about them."
posted by Stacey at 5:23 AM on April 2, 2015 [11 favorites]
First of all your brothers sound like difficult people to tolerate so good on you for being the bigger person all these years. It takes a great deal of restraint to treat people with respect when it is not reciprocated.
Once upon a time I was an evangelical Christian and was surrounded by evangelical Christians (I am an atheist now, FWIW). "Holding a mirror up" to them will do absolutely nothing but make them more self righteous and just reinforce in their mind that you are wrong, below them, sinful, or whatever. You need to understand that they see their beliefs as holy and from God. You will not dissuade them from that belief. Let me say that again. You will not dissuade them from believing that they are in the right and following God's instructions.
If your motivation is to teach them that you will not succeed. If you are just plain tired of being the better person and putting up with your brothers' self righteous BS then by all means proceed with tit for tat. Just know you may damage your relationship with them permanently. One thing I've learned from my experience is forgiveness is just about as elusive as acceptance for many, many conservative Christian.
posted by teamnap at 5:27 AM on April 2, 2015 [10 favorites]
Once upon a time I was an evangelical Christian and was surrounded by evangelical Christians (I am an atheist now, FWIW). "Holding a mirror up" to them will do absolutely nothing but make them more self righteous and just reinforce in their mind that you are wrong, below them, sinful, or whatever. You need to understand that they see their beliefs as holy and from God. You will not dissuade them from that belief. Let me say that again. You will not dissuade them from believing that they are in the right and following God's instructions.
If your motivation is to teach them that you will not succeed. If you are just plain tired of being the better person and putting up with your brothers' self righteous BS then by all means proceed with tit for tat. Just know you may damage your relationship with them permanently. One thing I've learned from my experience is forgiveness is just about as elusive as acceptance for many, many conservative Christian.
posted by teamnap at 5:27 AM on April 2, 2015 [10 favorites]
I don't have great advice for you, but I just wanted to go against the grain of how it seems responses are going, and say: I am a gay person. It would devastate, enrage, and horrify me to think that my WIFE was demoted to "partner" in my fucking EULOGY. I married her so that she would be my WIFE. We are fighting for gay marriage, state by state, so she can be my WIFE.
No , you probably can't change your brothers, but you have my absolute blessing to not feel obligated to "be the bigger person" about this. I think your brothers are being tremendous assholes to not respect your father's wishes at his own funeral, and you owe them no consideration.
posted by nakedmolerats at 5:28 AM on April 2, 2015 [42 favorites]
No , you probably can't change your brothers, but you have my absolute blessing to not feel obligated to "be the bigger person" about this. I think your brothers are being tremendous assholes to not respect your father's wishes at his own funeral, and you owe them no consideration.
posted by nakedmolerats at 5:28 AM on April 2, 2015 [42 favorites]
Going tit-for-tat will only increase tensions and potentially create a widening rift. You really can't argue with evangelicals about their beliefs because their lives are so utterly contained inside their tiny bubble. And, that bubble is so constraining that they really have no room for movement lest they pop the bubble. They truly are the definition of severe self-segregation.
My in-laws are fairly conservative evangelicals. Thankfully, though, they aren't the every-word-they-speak-is-about-their-faith sort of evangelical. Still, they are pretty religious people.
Problem is, my brothers don’t want to use “father’s spouse” or “stepfather”, but use “partner” instead. This might sound small, but in my experience people attach significance to such things. If it were no big deal, my brothers would just use the terms they’ve been requested to use.
Honestly? I don't think this is as big a deal as you're making it. At least they are acknowledging your father's relationship. If "partner" is the term they need to use internally in order to accept that he was gay, so be it. They could just as easily have written him out of their life.
In the end, your attempts to "teach" them is really no different from their desire to proselytize and "reveal the word" to others. Just let it go and enjoy the company of the non-evangelical members of your family.
posted by Thorzdad at 5:30 AM on April 2, 2015 [6 favorites]
My in-laws are fairly conservative evangelicals. Thankfully, though, they aren't the every-word-they-speak-is-about-their-faith sort of evangelical. Still, they are pretty religious people.
Problem is, my brothers don’t want to use “father’s spouse” or “stepfather”, but use “partner” instead. This might sound small, but in my experience people attach significance to such things. If it were no big deal, my brothers would just use the terms they’ve been requested to use.
Honestly? I don't think this is as big a deal as you're making it. At least they are acknowledging your father's relationship. If "partner" is the term they need to use internally in order to accept that he was gay, so be it. They could just as easily have written him out of their life.
In the end, your attempts to "teach" them is really no different from their desire to proselytize and "reveal the word" to others. Just let it go and enjoy the company of the non-evangelical members of your family.
posted by Thorzdad at 5:30 AM on April 2, 2015 [6 favorites]
I love the idea of you and your sister being really cool aunts and letting the next generation know that you have their back. They don't just have their parents as role models - you get to speak to them about what you believe and your outlook on things. You'll never be able to change your brothers. Focus on the future and your relationships with your nieces and nephews.
posted by h00py at 5:40 AM on April 2, 2015 [5 favorites]
posted by h00py at 5:40 AM on April 2, 2015 [5 favorites]
To me, this is the crux of the Religious Freedom Act, which is pardoning disrespectful behavior toward others under the guise of religion. It's hard to comprehend how people can think this isn't belittling to to others, but I guess they have power in numbers so they feel in the right. I really like your idea of calling your brothers' spouses "partner", I think that is brilliant. I have a sister who is a Christian zealot and does not hesitate to tell more liberal siblings that she is going to have their kids baptized behind their backs, will start speaking in tongues and praying out loud for your soul every time you say goodbye, and insists that her having 8 kids despite a husband who is chronically unemployed is God's blessing on her. I guess it can be viewed as a reliable source of entertainment, and if I got too huffy with her, it may not be fun anymore, so I like your ideas of respectful protest rather than ignoring or pushing too hard agaist your brothers' rude behavior.
posted by waving at 5:45 AM on April 2, 2015 [5 favorites]
posted by waving at 5:45 AM on April 2, 2015 [5 favorites]
I'm in a pretty darn similar boat to you with some exceptions (such as your father passing, which I'm very sorry to read). I'm an atheist [fn 1], and all of my family is nutball evangelical Christians; despite that, we all like each other, generally get along pretty well, and enjoy hanging out. I had lived out of state for awhile and moved back to Jesus-land about 3 years ago. That's when they started saying some obnoxious shit around me. It wasn't directed at me, but because I was around them more and they just assumed that everyone that isn't obviously defective is also a nutball Xian, they'd just talk how they normally talk w/o any regard for the possibility that anyone else might not be Xian (or, worse, might be the dreaded A-word).
That led to some bitterness on my part, for sure. And I figured that this was, at root, a lapse of etiquette. I thought of it in terms of physical space: when you're around someone that gets all up in your physical space, your 3-foot bubble, you push them back one way or another. So, when they got all up in my conceptual space, I pushed them back. Kinda hard at first, because I needed them to know that there were boundaries that I was pretty serious about.
It was a calculated risk, because I didn't want to endanger our relationships but I also knew there'd be some pretty unpleasant moments. I think the first time I pushed back was when someone made an obnoxious comment about gay people, and I just launched into a spiel about how evangelicals are all immoral homophobes (probably the first adjective was more biting than the latter!). That, in turn, led to a long half-discussion half-argument.
But I figured that, since we like each other and everyone views themselves as basically polite, once the boundaries were set they would be respected. And it's worked pretty well, actually. There are still occasional racist jokes or awful comments, but it's like disciplining a dog or a kid: you give them immediate correction (in the form of a snide comment about Christians), and it keeps them mindful of the boundaries. And, importantly, I'm sure they still think I'm immoral or wrong or whatever, and that's fine; what matters is that they're polite about it and *mindful* of our differences.
Again, very much a calculated risk, but I knew that just shutting up and keeping quiet would ruin the relationships just as much since I wouldn't hang out with any of them.
YMMV, of course, since family dynamics are all different.
Having said all that, I'd probably let them use the term "partner" as long as they're respectful in all other regards. I also wouldn't think twice about telling other family members. I mean, the fact that your siblings are loons couldn't possibly be a secret. (I have a few extended family members that are on my side, so to speak, and we talk about the Xian branch in the normal course. How could we not!)
[fn 1] I always feel a little odd writing that I'm an atheist, since.....frankly, I don't really care either way.
posted by jpe at 5:47 AM on April 2, 2015 [5 favorites]
That led to some bitterness on my part, for sure. And I figured that this was, at root, a lapse of etiquette. I thought of it in terms of physical space: when you're around someone that gets all up in your physical space, your 3-foot bubble, you push them back one way or another. So, when they got all up in my conceptual space, I pushed them back. Kinda hard at first, because I needed them to know that there were boundaries that I was pretty serious about.
It was a calculated risk, because I didn't want to endanger our relationships but I also knew there'd be some pretty unpleasant moments. I think the first time I pushed back was when someone made an obnoxious comment about gay people, and I just launched into a spiel about how evangelicals are all immoral homophobes (probably the first adjective was more biting than the latter!). That, in turn, led to a long half-discussion half-argument.
But I figured that, since we like each other and everyone views themselves as basically polite, once the boundaries were set they would be respected. And it's worked pretty well, actually. There are still occasional racist jokes or awful comments, but it's like disciplining a dog or a kid: you give them immediate correction (in the form of a snide comment about Christians), and it keeps them mindful of the boundaries. And, importantly, I'm sure they still think I'm immoral or wrong or whatever, and that's fine; what matters is that they're polite about it and *mindful* of our differences.
Again, very much a calculated risk, but I knew that just shutting up and keeping quiet would ruin the relationships just as much since I wouldn't hang out with any of them.
YMMV, of course, since family dynamics are all different.
Having said all that, I'd probably let them use the term "partner" as long as they're respectful in all other regards. I also wouldn't think twice about telling other family members. I mean, the fact that your siblings are loons couldn't possibly be a secret. (I have a few extended family members that are on my side, so to speak, and we talk about the Xian branch in the normal course. How could we not!)
[fn 1] I always feel a little odd writing that I'm an atheist, since.....frankly, I don't really care either way.
posted by jpe at 5:47 AM on April 2, 2015 [5 favorites]
Drat: mistyped my comment! I *would* probably feel uncomfortable describing any new spouse / partner of a parent as a "step-father" or "step-mother" if they hadn’t had that role in my life. Other than that, yes your brothers are being jerks.
posted by pharm at 5:49 AM on April 2, 2015
posted by pharm at 5:49 AM on April 2, 2015
Stop worrying about them and do what makes YOU happy; they obviously don't care about your happiness or your relationships with them or they would do as you requested. Don't be a dick back to them, just participate at a level that you can handle. Take things as they come - if you want to attend an event, like a nephew's birthday party - go. If you don't want to attend an event that is more religious, then don't. The minute you don't feel comfortable, make an excuse and leave - you don't have to suffer through their ignorance.
posted by NoraCharles at 5:50 AM on April 2, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by NoraCharles at 5:50 AM on April 2, 2015 [2 favorites]
Is there some reason why your brothers are the ones giving all the eulogies? That seems bizarre. One way to push back might be to simply say that it is your turn to eulogize, and then you can use the terminology your father would have preferred. Or, let the brothers go first if they refuse this arrangement, and then you go last and let your eulogy serve as a contrast.
I've also witnessed (and been a part of) a lot of evangelical family members of my own changing their viewpoints about how to interact with/talk about gay people, and it has been YEARS of quiet, respectful, but insistent reiterating of my own viewpoint. The result is that two of my "elders" who I never expected to change their minds came to ask me for my perspective/advice on how to talk about these issues with the younger generation. One relative who used to view all gay people as dangerous sexual predators who might attack her children heard my disagreements for years, then asked me for advice, and ultimately became someone who is much, much more loving and tolerant now, and her beliefs are still in process.
(And, um, I'm technically an evangelical family member myself (in terms of the kind of church I attend), except I use that position to advocate for gay rights/dignity/marriage as a moral necessity to people in the church and in my family who would otherwise never deign to give credence to those perspectives as having any value.)
posted by a fiendish thingy at 5:52 AM on April 2, 2015 [8 favorites]
I've also witnessed (and been a part of) a lot of evangelical family members of my own changing their viewpoints about how to interact with/talk about gay people, and it has been YEARS of quiet, respectful, but insistent reiterating of my own viewpoint. The result is that two of my "elders" who I never expected to change their minds came to ask me for my perspective/advice on how to talk about these issues with the younger generation. One relative who used to view all gay people as dangerous sexual predators who might attack her children heard my disagreements for years, then asked me for advice, and ultimately became someone who is much, much more loving and tolerant now, and her beliefs are still in process.
(And, um, I'm technically an evangelical family member myself (in terms of the kind of church I attend), except I use that position to advocate for gay rights/dignity/marriage as a moral necessity to people in the church and in my family who would otherwise never deign to give credence to those perspectives as having any value.)
posted by a fiendish thingy at 5:52 AM on April 2, 2015 [8 favorites]
Systematically treating evangelical family with more respect than they treat you is not appeasement, it's winning the war. These are people who literally think that you are in danger of going to hell. Different evangelicals cope with that in different ways - some work very hard to convert you, some detach because they know they won't see you in Heaven, some try other tactics to get you to come over to their side, whatever they think will work. It's not actually personal.
Being a warm, welcoming, kind person no matter what will pay dividends that you may not see for a while. You'll sleep better at night. Also, you have twelve nieces and nephews - statistically, one of them or one of their children is likely to be gay.
posted by juniperesque at 6:02 AM on April 2, 2015 [9 favorites]
Being a warm, welcoming, kind person no matter what will pay dividends that you may not see for a while. You'll sleep better at night. Also, you have twelve nieces and nephews - statistically, one of them or one of their children is likely to be gay.
posted by juniperesque at 6:02 AM on April 2, 2015 [9 favorites]
Yes, there is a big difference between 'partner' and 'spouse,' because the person in question feels there's a difference.
I'd personally be tempted to be sneaky about it. Leave them to say whatever horseshit they want--and make sure you are scheduled to speak after them. Fill your speech with the nomenclature your stepfather prefers, talk about the joy and the love that two men shared, etc.
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 6:30 AM on April 2, 2015 [20 favorites]
I'd personally be tempted to be sneaky about it. Leave them to say whatever horseshit they want--and make sure you are scheduled to speak after them. Fill your speech with the nomenclature your stepfather prefers, talk about the joy and the love that two men shared, etc.
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 6:30 AM on April 2, 2015 [20 favorites]
Systematically treating them with more respect than they treat you with is exactly the right thing to do, I think. I mean, if you want or need to disengage from them, spend a lot less time with them, etc., that's 100% ok. But when you're interacting with them, take the high road. That's what winning looks like to me.
On the specifics of the eulogy question, I don't know what you can do beyond asking your brother to respect your (and your father and stepfather's) wishes. Even though you know he will most likely not respect those wishes. I agree that you should also speak at the funeral.
Also if there's a program or any written pieces, you can get your/your father's preferred wording in there.
This is definitely a little bit tit-for-tat, but it's more about respecting your father's and stepfather's wishes than it is about showing disrespect to your brothers, so I think it's worth it.
posted by mskyle at 6:33 AM on April 2, 2015 [2 favorites]
On the specifics of the eulogy question, I don't know what you can do beyond asking your brother to respect your (and your father and stepfather's) wishes. Even though you know he will most likely not respect those wishes. I agree that you should also speak at the funeral.
Also if there's a program or any written pieces, you can get your/your father's preferred wording in there.
This is definitely a little bit tit-for-tat, but it's more about respecting your father's and stepfather's wishes than it is about showing disrespect to your brothers, so I think it's worth it.
posted by mskyle at 6:33 AM on April 2, 2015 [2 favorites]
Response by poster: Quick clarification - My brothers aren't speaking at my father's funeral, I'm the only child speaking. My stepfather was asking about how he's going to be referred to when being introduced to my brother's acquaintances at the funeral's reception and at other times. (He's not a new figure in the family, btw -- he was together with my father for 16 yrs. before they got married this year.) Thanks again for all the thoughtful and different perspectives, it's absolutely helping me think things through.
posted by airing nerdy laundry at 6:41 AM on April 2, 2015
posted by airing nerdy laundry at 6:41 AM on April 2, 2015
You have bigger problems in your family if the men always take the lead!
Hold your head high and ignore it. Display photos of the happy couple at the memorial. Sit with your stepfather and comfort him. Eulogized your father, make sure his spouse gets a chance to speak, too.
"Should I tell my Uncle in an attempt to shame my Brothers into doing the right thing?"
Oh, my dear! Where is your authority here?! Anyway...
This is your father's memorial service, not an LGBT Rights Event. You focus on your father and what he meant to you. Don't couch parts of his life in any particular way, be natural. I'm pretty sure your Stepfather's honored place with the family (you) at the memorial says it all.
If your Stepfather is not welcome and photos of them will not be displayed, that is a different question. Please clarify.
posted by jbenben at 6:43 AM on April 2, 2015 [1 favorite]
Hold your head high and ignore it. Display photos of the happy couple at the memorial. Sit with your stepfather and comfort him. Eulogized your father, make sure his spouse gets a chance to speak, too.
"Should I tell my Uncle in an attempt to shame my Brothers into doing the right thing?"
Oh, my dear! Where is your authority here?! Anyway...
This is your father's memorial service, not an LGBT Rights Event. You focus on your father and what he meant to you. Don't couch parts of his life in any particular way, be natural. I'm pretty sure your Stepfather's honored place with the family (you) at the memorial says it all.
If your Stepfather is not welcome and photos of them will not be displayed, that is a different question. Please clarify.
posted by jbenben at 6:43 AM on April 2, 2015 [1 favorite]
Oh man. The tit-for-tat thing would feel so good. I feel you, OP, I really do. It really won't make matters any better -- it will just convince them that they are being persecuted even more.
Long-term, you need to do what the man that your family members pretend to follow would do: continue to show them the kindness that they refuse to show to others.
In the short-term, I see two considerations. First, it doesn't seem clear from your question whether or not your stepfather would have a problem with the word "partner." He'd probably prefer husband or spouse, and you and I seem to both agree that husband or spouse is the "correct" terminology, but he might honestly be fine with it. I would tell him that your brother's are willing to use the term "partner" and see how he feels about it.
Second even if you weren't planning on giving a eulogy, I would do so, and I would make sure to talk about how happy you are that your father's husband* was able to bring happiness to your father's life and how happy and honoured you were to be able to attend their wedding. Even if your brothers want to be close-minded about their relationship, you can make it clear that in your eyes, your father's husband is as much a part of the family as your sisters-in-law.
*"Stepfather" seems like a bit too strong of a term for a man who wasn't involved in raising you. If the term works for you, that's fine, but I have plenty of friends whose straight parents remarried after the friend's were adults who don't feel comfortable with the "step" term.
I'm sorry for your loss, OP. Good luck.
posted by sparklemotion at 6:45 AM on April 2, 2015 [1 favorite]
Long-term, you need to do what the man that your family members pretend to follow would do: continue to show them the kindness that they refuse to show to others.
In the short-term, I see two considerations. First, it doesn't seem clear from your question whether or not your stepfather would have a problem with the word "partner." He'd probably prefer husband or spouse, and you and I seem to both agree that husband or spouse is the "correct" terminology, but he might honestly be fine with it. I would tell him that your brother's are willing to use the term "partner" and see how he feels about it.
Second even if you weren't planning on giving a eulogy, I would do so, and I would make sure to talk about how happy you are that your father's husband* was able to bring happiness to your father's life and how happy and honoured you were to be able to attend their wedding. Even if your brothers want to be close-minded about their relationship, you can make it clear that in your eyes, your father's husband is as much a part of the family as your sisters-in-law.
*"Stepfather" seems like a bit too strong of a term for a man who wasn't involved in raising you. If the term works for you, that's fine, but I have plenty of friends whose straight parents remarried after the friend's were adults who don't feel comfortable with the "step" term.
I'm sorry for your loss, OP. Good luck.
posted by sparklemotion at 6:45 AM on April 2, 2015 [1 favorite]
I come from a Baptist family. I'm agnostic.
Would it be helpful to you at all to think of how your father would treat your brothers in a situation like this? Because it seems to me that your father's funeral is a place of remembrance of him, what he stood for, what legacy he left behind. And this:
I hope I’m not just out for revenge -- I'd like to hold a mirror up to my brothers in the hopes that they eventually change their behavior at least somewhat. Since just taking the high road doesn’t seem to be improving the situation, and moreover feels like constant appeasement that creates resentment in me and my sis, I’m willing to try giving them the experience of being undermined and disrespected in case it helps them appreciate how non-evangelical members have been experiencing their actions.
This doesn't seem at all a thing that a person with the courage to come out so late in life and publicly stand up for his spouse would want you to do.
The hard thing with Evangelicals - well, one of the hard things - is that they are programmed to take any disagreement with their belief system as persecution. And that only steels their resolve to be even more pious. And, I am sorry to say it because you're clearly in a lot of pain and I am firmly on your side in all of this, but they think you're going to hell and that your father and his spouse and all other gay people are, too. This is their greatest fear - an eternity of suffering in Hell, separated from God. They believe that their souls, too, will be imperiled (silly hyperbolic language intended) if they stand against God's will and endorse gay marriage, which goes against their core belief system. So, for them, using the word "spouse" is particularly fraught.
Anecdotally - and so you know I can understand - my own brother was a devout Christian. The pastor of his church gave his eulogy at his funeral, and in that eulogy he basically said that any non-Christian at my brother's funeral who didn't "come forward right now and profess their sins to Christ and throw themselves on his mercy" was making a mockery of my brother's life and making his death "in vain". I mean, come the fuck on. That's just total horseshit, first off, and second off, who the hell told him he could say that? I didn't. Nobody else in our family did, even my Christian parents. So, you see? There is a fundamental disconnect (read: delusion) there that you are not likely to see change in your brothers.
Your dad's funeral is about remembering and honoring his life, and that means really reflecting on how he would treat all of his children, and how he would want you all to treat each other. And you know what? Maybe you could invite some of your father and his spouse's inner circle of very close gay friends to speak about him as he was, and what his courage and spirit meant to them. You get up and speak about your father and his spouse. He loved his spouse, you love his spouse, you care about his spouse's loss. Speak of how proud your are of your dad. Remember him the way he deserves.
And, in so doing, show your family that difference can be expressed with dignity, respect, tolerance and compassion.
Good luck. I'm so sorry you lost your dad. He sounds like a really strong person.
On preview: Oh. Well, then that's great. Good that they're not speaking at the funeral. Say whatever you want and invite his friends to do the same.
posted by TryTheTilapia at 6:53 AM on April 2, 2015 [5 favorites]
Would it be helpful to you at all to think of how your father would treat your brothers in a situation like this? Because it seems to me that your father's funeral is a place of remembrance of him, what he stood for, what legacy he left behind. And this:
I hope I’m not just out for revenge -- I'd like to hold a mirror up to my brothers in the hopes that they eventually change their behavior at least somewhat. Since just taking the high road doesn’t seem to be improving the situation, and moreover feels like constant appeasement that creates resentment in me and my sis, I’m willing to try giving them the experience of being undermined and disrespected in case it helps them appreciate how non-evangelical members have been experiencing their actions.
This doesn't seem at all a thing that a person with the courage to come out so late in life and publicly stand up for his spouse would want you to do.
The hard thing with Evangelicals - well, one of the hard things - is that they are programmed to take any disagreement with their belief system as persecution. And that only steels their resolve to be even more pious. And, I am sorry to say it because you're clearly in a lot of pain and I am firmly on your side in all of this, but they think you're going to hell and that your father and his spouse and all other gay people are, too. This is their greatest fear - an eternity of suffering in Hell, separated from God. They believe that their souls, too, will be imperiled (silly hyperbolic language intended) if they stand against God's will and endorse gay marriage, which goes against their core belief system. So, for them, using the word "spouse" is particularly fraught.
Anecdotally - and so you know I can understand - my own brother was a devout Christian. The pastor of his church gave his eulogy at his funeral, and in that eulogy he basically said that any non-Christian at my brother's funeral who didn't "come forward right now and profess their sins to Christ and throw themselves on his mercy" was making a mockery of my brother's life and making his death "in vain". I mean, come the fuck on. That's just total horseshit, first off, and second off, who the hell told him he could say that? I didn't. Nobody else in our family did, even my Christian parents. So, you see? There is a fundamental disconnect (read: delusion) there that you are not likely to see change in your brothers.
Your dad's funeral is about remembering and honoring his life, and that means really reflecting on how he would treat all of his children, and how he would want you all to treat each other. And you know what? Maybe you could invite some of your father and his spouse's inner circle of very close gay friends to speak about him as he was, and what his courage and spirit meant to them. You get up and speak about your father and his spouse. He loved his spouse, you love his spouse, you care about his spouse's loss. Speak of how proud your are of your dad. Remember him the way he deserves.
And, in so doing, show your family that difference can be expressed with dignity, respect, tolerance and compassion.
Good luck. I'm so sorry you lost your dad. He sounds like a really strong person.
On preview: Oh. Well, then that's great. Good that they're not speaking at the funeral. Say whatever you want and invite his friends to do the same.
posted by TryTheTilapia at 6:53 AM on April 2, 2015 [5 favorites]
I'm having a hard time from your question figuring out what (achievable, in your control) state of the world you want. You should figure that out and do things that are likely to achieve that goal, and not do things that aren't.
You probably don't actually want to be spiteful, even if it's warranted.
(I hate hate hate "partner." "Husband, " please)
posted by PMdixon at 7:15 AM on April 2, 2015
You probably don't actually want to be spiteful, even if it's warranted.
(I hate hate hate "partner." "Husband, " please)
posted by PMdixon at 7:15 AM on April 2, 2015
Christian here... you may find this useful:
1 Corinthians 5 12-13
What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? ... God will judge those outside....
posted by i_mean_come_on_now at 7:16 AM on April 2, 2015 [3 favorites]
1 Corinthians 5 12-13
What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? ... God will judge those outside....
posted by i_mean_come_on_now at 7:16 AM on April 2, 2015 [3 favorites]
This is your father's memorial service, not an LGBT Rights Event.
For queer people, especially around homophobes, it's always an LGBT Rights Event. Our right to exist and be known for who we are. It might be most effective for your stepfather to introduce himself around widely as "I was X's spouse" before your brothers have a chance to poison the well.
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 7:16 AM on April 2, 2015 [33 favorites]
For queer people, especially around homophobes, it's always an LGBT Rights Event. Our right to exist and be known for who we are. It might be most effective for your stepfather to introduce himself around widely as "I was X's spouse" before your brothers have a chance to poison the well.
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 7:16 AM on April 2, 2015 [33 favorites]
Are there other family members besides you and your sister that are allies, that you could ask to help introduce Stepfather? If you can get a little group of people who are on board with interjecting "yes, they were so happy to be married a few months ago.." every time partners are mentioned, I think that could help.
We can't speak for your stepfather, though, so ask him what he wants. I know that *I* would feel very loved and protected to feel that people were willing to stand up with me and for my relationship. He may prefer to just smooth it over, but let him know you are totally on board with making it Widely Known that he was a SPOUSE.
posted by nakedmolerats at 7:30 AM on April 2, 2015 [4 favorites]
We can't speak for your stepfather, though, so ask him what he wants. I know that *I* would feel very loved and protected to feel that people were willing to stand up with me and for my relationship. He may prefer to just smooth it over, but let him know you are totally on board with making it Widely Known that he was a SPOUSE.
posted by nakedmolerats at 7:30 AM on April 2, 2015 [4 favorites]
If your stepfather was with your father for 16 years, I think he already knows the answer to his question. He will be referred to as your father's partner, and while I agree that it's something of a slap in the face, in the sense that he will be amongst evangelicals I think that's actually a pretty charitable description.
He can then choose to correct the introduction himself ("actually, we were just married a couple of months ago"), or, you could come behind your brothers with a breezy re-introduction (Oh, hi Joe, have you met my father's spouse, Ted?").
Ask your stepfather how he wants to handle it. I'm sure he won't want to make a scene at the memorial, nor do anything to get himself alienated from your brothers' kids. So you might just leave it as is and say nothing.
Btw, is your stepfather not saying anything at the service? If he is, surely it will be made clear as to their significance in each other's lives. No need at that point for you to step in with any further clarification.
posted by vignettist at 7:45 AM on April 2, 2015
He can then choose to correct the introduction himself ("actually, we were just married a couple of months ago"), or, you could come behind your brothers with a breezy re-introduction (Oh, hi Joe, have you met my father's spouse, Ted?").
Ask your stepfather how he wants to handle it. I'm sure he won't want to make a scene at the memorial, nor do anything to get himself alienated from your brothers' kids. So you might just leave it as is and say nothing.
Btw, is your stepfather not saying anything at the service? If he is, surely it will be made clear as to their significance in each other's lives. No need at that point for you to step in with any further clarification.
posted by vignettist at 7:45 AM on April 2, 2015
I am an asshole, but if my spouse had just died and his kids were shitting on my relationship with him, I would disinvite them from the memorial service. Funerals are for the living, and the next of kin (in this case, your dad's husband) have the right to have a service that is of comfort to them. If your brothers want to be disrespectful of your father and his husband, they can do that on their own time. People who are going to shit on your father's life should not be invited to the funeral, even if they are blood relatives. Let them have some sort of bigot funeral at their own church if they want to be jerks to their dead father, but they don't get to inflict that on the rest of you.
But like I said, I'm an asshole.
posted by decathecting at 7:50 AM on April 2, 2015 [15 favorites]
But like I said, I'm an asshole.
posted by decathecting at 7:50 AM on April 2, 2015 [15 favorites]
I'm sorry for your loss.
Going tit for tat would be the correct thing to do in a lot of ways, and frankly I wish it were a more viable option, but it probably would not make any heterosexual couples actually feel their relationships delegitimized in the way that they want to make your father's spouse feel delegitimized, nor would it actually make you or your stepfather feel better about the rift that the homophobia in your family has created
Making sure your father's spouse is aware that you want to honor his relationship with your father in the service, and deferring to him on how he wants you to handle the situation, sounds like a great way to preserve your relationship with a person in your family who's making a very appropriate request. Family is a two-way street and your brothers' reactions to this will not be in your control.
posted by Stukos at 7:59 AM on April 2, 2015
Going tit for tat would be the correct thing to do in a lot of ways, and frankly I wish it were a more viable option, but it probably would not make any heterosexual couples actually feel their relationships delegitimized in the way that they want to make your father's spouse feel delegitimized, nor would it actually make you or your stepfather feel better about the rift that the homophobia in your family has created
Making sure your father's spouse is aware that you want to honor his relationship with your father in the service, and deferring to him on how he wants you to handle the situation, sounds like a great way to preserve your relationship with a person in your family who's making a very appropriate request. Family is a two-way street and your brothers' reactions to this will not be in your control.
posted by Stukos at 7:59 AM on April 2, 2015
Absolutely honor your father and his spouse when you speak at the funeral, and if your brothers insist on using the word "partner" for introductions, your stepfather can smile and say, "Husband, actually" (or spouse or whatever he chooses). It's not fair, and it may be tiresome to repeatedly correct the brothers, but it's more realistic than thinking there is any way to control what they say.
As for the tit-for-tat ideas, please reconsider.
Fearful intolerance is a hallmark of evangelical Christians. I do know it can be miserable (I come from a large family of evangelicals), but I find I'm personally more content if I accept their right to the religion of their choosing, no matter how much I disagree (i.e., intolerance on my part would be two wrongs not making a right). They can believe and pray and vote however they choose, and I can withdraw from any conversation I choose without withdrawing respect for their rights.
Put another way, it's possible to respect people's rights to believe something without respecting the belief itself.
Calling your brothers' spouses "partners" might feel good in one sense, but doing so would be waging a war that your nieces and nephews are unlikely to find respectable. Alternatively, rising above by demonstrating love, acceptance, and kindness to that group of family members will earn you the respect of nieces and nephews. If they notice over the years that their aunt is more tolerant and loving than their Christian parents, they have more of a chance of finding freedom in their own lives. This is far preferable to them remembering a bunch of outrage on both sides, which seems inevitable if you go the tit-for-tat route.
I'm so sorry for your loss, and I hope the memorial service goes smoothly and serves to honor your father.
posted by whoiam at 8:01 AM on April 2, 2015 [2 favorites]
As for the tit-for-tat ideas, please reconsider.
Fearful intolerance is a hallmark of evangelical Christians. I do know it can be miserable (I come from a large family of evangelicals), but I find I'm personally more content if I accept their right to the religion of their choosing, no matter how much I disagree (i.e., intolerance on my part would be two wrongs not making a right). They can believe and pray and vote however they choose, and I can withdraw from any conversation I choose without withdrawing respect for their rights.
Put another way, it's possible to respect people's rights to believe something without respecting the belief itself.
Calling your brothers' spouses "partners" might feel good in one sense, but doing so would be waging a war that your nieces and nephews are unlikely to find respectable. Alternatively, rising above by demonstrating love, acceptance, and kindness to that group of family members will earn you the respect of nieces and nephews. If they notice over the years that their aunt is more tolerant and loving than their Christian parents, they have more of a chance of finding freedom in their own lives. This is far preferable to them remembering a bunch of outrage on both sides, which seems inevitable if you go the tit-for-tat route.
I'm so sorry for your loss, and I hope the memorial service goes smoothly and serves to honor your father.
posted by whoiam at 8:01 AM on April 2, 2015 [2 favorites]
Could you prime the pump, so to speak, by mentioning in your eulogy that stepfather was your father's "partner in life, partner in marriage"? This would get the contentious word out there but reframe it to mean exactly what you want to mean.
How your brothers introduce him to their acquaintances is their business, and whether stepfather wants to gently correct them is his choice. Presumably anyone at the funeral reception would have already heard your eulogy, though. If there's any confusion, maybe you could suggest that your stepfather could follow up the introduction with "I was so glad to have shared a married life with [father], even if it was so brief."
posted by Liesl at 8:25 AM on April 2, 2015 [2 favorites]
How your brothers introduce him to their acquaintances is their business, and whether stepfather wants to gently correct them is his choice. Presumably anyone at the funeral reception would have already heard your eulogy, though. If there's any confusion, maybe you could suggest that your stepfather could follow up the introduction with "I was so glad to have shared a married life with [father], even if it was so brief."
posted by Liesl at 8:25 AM on April 2, 2015 [2 favorites]
What you see as lack of respect they probably view as bending over backwards to try to appease their hellbound family. Going tit-for-tat would feel great for a while, but you would poison the relationship. Can you preempt this by introducing your stepfather at the service in the eulogy for you father so everyone knows who he is? That way your brothers won't actually have to introduce him by title to any of their acquaintances.
Personally, I take the long view on payback. The best revenge for this sort of thing is having them watch their kids grow up to be free-thinkers or *gasp* non-religious. Be a rational dissenting voice around the kids, give them another perspective, get them lots of dinosaur toys as little kids, provide them media with normal, non-stereotypical GLBT* people/single people/etc., be a resource that they can come to with questions they don't feel like they can ask their parents and so on. Play a very long game and in addition to feeling a sense of revenge (because honestly, that's a good part of the tit-for-tat) you'll actually be making the world a better place.
posted by Hactar at 8:35 AM on April 2, 2015 [5 favorites]
Personally, I take the long view on payback. The best revenge for this sort of thing is having them watch their kids grow up to be free-thinkers or *gasp* non-religious. Be a rational dissenting voice around the kids, give them another perspective, get them lots of dinosaur toys as little kids, provide them media with normal, non-stereotypical GLBT* people/single people/etc., be a resource that they can come to with questions they don't feel like they can ask their parents and so on. Play a very long game and in addition to feeling a sense of revenge (because honestly, that's a good part of the tit-for-tat) you'll actually be making the world a better place.
posted by Hactar at 8:35 AM on April 2, 2015 [5 favorites]
Well, if you're going to tit-for-tat, I wouldn't do it by calling your sisters-in-law partners. I'd do it by just calling out your brothers' bad behavior as rude, especially if they're going against the decedent's wishes.
In this case, you might tell your stepfather that you expect your brothers to call him your dad's partner, not husband or spouse, and (if true) that you expect them to downplay his presence in your father's life or use the occasion as a springboard for some anti-gay tirade. And, if true, mention that you think it would be fine if Stepfather didn't want brothers to speak at the memorial service after all, since they wouldn't really be offering a eulogy. Or for your stepfather to make it clear that offering a eulogy will be on his terms, not theirs, and they'd be agreeing at minimum not to turn it into some anti-gay scree.
I mean, why is it incumbent on your brothers to introduce your stepfather? Your stepfather should be the center of the memorial service, not some random passive participant in it like a co-worker; it's his place to introduce or not, to choose who speaks and who does not, and so on. Or, you could introduce you stepfather instead of them, and tell your brothers that you'll be doing the introduction because your brothers would only be disrespectful in a way and degree that's just not commensurate with a memorial service.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 8:52 AM on April 2, 2015 [2 favorites]
In this case, you might tell your stepfather that you expect your brothers to call him your dad's partner, not husband or spouse, and (if true) that you expect them to downplay his presence in your father's life or use the occasion as a springboard for some anti-gay tirade. And, if true, mention that you think it would be fine if Stepfather didn't want brothers to speak at the memorial service after all, since they wouldn't really be offering a eulogy. Or for your stepfather to make it clear that offering a eulogy will be on his terms, not theirs, and they'd be agreeing at minimum not to turn it into some anti-gay scree.
I mean, why is it incumbent on your brothers to introduce your stepfather? Your stepfather should be the center of the memorial service, not some random passive participant in it like a co-worker; it's his place to introduce or not, to choose who speaks and who does not, and so on. Or, you could introduce you stepfather instead of them, and tell your brothers that you'll be doing the introduction because your brothers would only be disrespectful in a way and degree that's just not commensurate with a memorial service.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 8:52 AM on April 2, 2015 [2 favorites]
If you go tit-for-tat you will not win. You are not going to provoke a gotcha moment. You will not challenge seriously held beliefs by being disingenuous. They will be able to pick at that, either to your face or later when you are not around. If you don't actually believe their marriages (and thus their children) are illegitimate then don't pretend in an attempt to make them feel bad.
My family is Evangelical/fundamentalist as well; one thing I know for sure is that they're not trying to be hurtful, hateful, or cruel. They legitimately believe and are struggling with trying to do what is right. That your family are willing to acknowledge your (and their) father's spouse at all is better than many (even if it is still unreasonable).
Refer to this man as your father's spouse (or stepfather) in your eulogy and after. Spend as much time with him during the event as possible. If someone asks you who he is, even if they are there because of their friendship with one of your brothers, still use father's spouse or stepfather.
You cannot control what your brothers say, but it would not be unreasonable for your father's spouse to mostly avoid wandering the floor with your brothers if that is what he wants. You - and other family members that are on board - can be there for him instead.
posted by mountmccabe at 8:59 AM on April 2, 2015
My family is Evangelical/fundamentalist as well; one thing I know for sure is that they're not trying to be hurtful, hateful, or cruel. They legitimately believe and are struggling with trying to do what is right. That your family are willing to acknowledge your (and their) father's spouse at all is better than many (even if it is still unreasonable).
Refer to this man as your father's spouse (or stepfather) in your eulogy and after. Spend as much time with him during the event as possible. If someone asks you who he is, even if they are there because of their friendship with one of your brothers, still use father's spouse or stepfather.
You cannot control what your brothers say, but it would not be unreasonable for your father's spouse to mostly avoid wandering the floor with your brothers if that is what he wants. You - and other family members that are on board - can be there for him instead.
posted by mountmccabe at 8:59 AM on April 2, 2015
Tit-for-tat will just escalate the situation further, I imagine. Evangelicals are held in sway by a host of ridiculous, illogical beliefs. The only way they might change their minds is if they come to the conclusion that they were wrong about gay people on their own. This would probably involve them spending time with a gay person doing stuff of mutual interest. (Sports, whatever) They have to get to know an actual real-life gay person on a human level before they will ever drop their beliefs. It's like dealing with a child. They have no ability to think critically, so mere examples won't sway them. You have to appeal to their emotions. You do this by making them feel 2 conflicting emotions at once (friendship and respect for a gay person v.s. the church's hateful teachings) and forcing them to resolve that for themselves. Of course, this could backfire and they might double-down on the hate to compensate for their church-forbidden-thoughts... some of these people are literally afraid of thinking for themselves and when confronted with things that challenge their beliefs go even more cuckoo so proceed with caution.
posted by signsofrain at 9:51 AM on April 2, 2015
posted by signsofrain at 9:51 AM on April 2, 2015
So when I counsel clients going into negotiations I always ask them what's a win for them. Sounds like a win for you---changing your brothers' perception of homosexual relationships---is not likely. As you recognize, your beliefs and your brothers' beliefs are flatly irreconcilable. To answer your question, changing their perception on the marriage issue is even less likely if you antagonize them.
Also, maybe I can give some deeper insight. Traditional Christian but non-fundie/Evangelical here: they may very well be assholes as a general matter, but your brothers are already making a pretty profound gesture by even calling the guy your dad's partner. And in your initial explanation you said that they visited with your father and his partner at their home--that's also a pretty profound gesture, especially if they took their children along.
The easiest course for your brothers, as others have noted, would be to treat the guy as if he didn't exist or were no different than any other friend. But they've taken the harder route and are at least engaging with the issue.
I think the status quo is the best you're going to get out of them in this situation, at least until one of you changes your beliefs about the fundamental nature of mankind. :) But please don't let their failure to embrace your position fully cause you to overlook those few steps they have made to recognizing your father's relationship. And to take this back to your direct question, please don't escalate an impossible situation by taking the easiest route by being petty towards them or their families. You say your "family has been on good terms in large part because non-evangelical family has swallowed a series of undermining actions and insults from my evangelical brothers." Don't be the one to upset those good terms, especially if your father's partner isn't rocking the boat.
Sorry about the loss of your parents and for your family's troubles. Deaths can be a time of great grace and healing for families and I hope you all experience that.
posted by resurrexit at 10:10 AM on April 2, 2015 [1 favorite]
Also, maybe I can give some deeper insight. Traditional Christian but non-fundie/Evangelical here: they may very well be assholes as a general matter, but your brothers are already making a pretty profound gesture by even calling the guy your dad's partner. And in your initial explanation you said that they visited with your father and his partner at their home--that's also a pretty profound gesture, especially if they took their children along.
The easiest course for your brothers, as others have noted, would be to treat the guy as if he didn't exist or were no different than any other friend. But they've taken the harder route and are at least engaging with the issue.
I think the status quo is the best you're going to get out of them in this situation, at least until one of you changes your beliefs about the fundamental nature of mankind. :) But please don't let their failure to embrace your position fully cause you to overlook those few steps they have made to recognizing your father's relationship. And to take this back to your direct question, please don't escalate an impossible situation by taking the easiest route by being petty towards them or their families. You say your "family has been on good terms in large part because non-evangelical family has swallowed a series of undermining actions and insults from my evangelical brothers." Don't be the one to upset those good terms, especially if your father's partner isn't rocking the boat.
Sorry about the loss of your parents and for your family's troubles. Deaths can be a time of great grace and healing for families and I hope you all experience that.
posted by resurrexit at 10:10 AM on April 2, 2015 [1 favorite]
that I won’t acknowledge their marital relations (my brothers both have wives) until they acknowledge my father’s and my stepfather’s, and thus will refer to their wives as their “partners,”
Wow, I would never think of that as an insult and a "tit for tat" - I refer to people's SO's as partners all the time - I refer to my own as a partner and am currently in a het relationship (I like partner because I'm bisexual and like the gender non-specifity, and to me "spouse" sounds too legalistic). Of course if your father preferred husband or spouse, then his wishes should be respected, but nonetheless I am impressed with how far we've come if that's the worst they're doing.
So basically, I wouldn't worry about it. Shake your heads at their remaining discomfort and recognize the war's been won. Not that long ago someone like your father would have died without his family even knowing he was gay, and a "friend" no one knew would have shown up to the funeral bawling. Your father married the man he loved and the majority of his community embraced it, and even those who had reservations accepted it. Sure, we can always do better, but don't let the memorial service be shadowed by the dumb fears of your brothers.
posted by mdn at 10:42 AM on April 2, 2015 [3 favorites]
Wow, I would never think of that as an insult and a "tit for tat" - I refer to people's SO's as partners all the time - I refer to my own as a partner and am currently in a het relationship (I like partner because I'm bisexual and like the gender non-specifity, and to me "spouse" sounds too legalistic). Of course if your father preferred husband or spouse, then his wishes should be respected, but nonetheless I am impressed with how far we've come if that's the worst they're doing.
So basically, I wouldn't worry about it. Shake your heads at their remaining discomfort and recognize the war's been won. Not that long ago someone like your father would have died without his family even knowing he was gay, and a "friend" no one knew would have shown up to the funeral bawling. Your father married the man he loved and the majority of his community embraced it, and even those who had reservations accepted it. Sure, we can always do better, but don't let the memorial service be shadowed by the dumb fears of your brothers.
posted by mdn at 10:42 AM on April 2, 2015 [3 favorites]
I think I have to step away from this post after this, and as others have said, OP, there are factions here trying to give you memorial advice and broader advice about how to get along with these people and impact your nieces/nephews.
I think you are going to have a long road with your nieces and nephews. You will likely be seen as stirring the pot if you try to disagree with their parents or explain your own beliefs. Your siblings may decide to limit your contact with them. It is, and it will be very tempting to just keep your mouth shut so that you can continue seeing them.
A lot of the advice here, I'm reading as "be bigger, turn the other cheek, be kinder and more God-like to them than they are and then you will win." But, to be silent to keep the peace will be demonstrating to their children that you agree, or at least tolerate their beliefs. Will your siblings be telling their children someday that your father was misguided or immoral in his love? How will you respond to that?
If , as you say, the good terms are at the expense of you shutting up and letting them do and say prejudiced, hurtful things, then they are not good terms AND they demonstrate to their children that one should look the other way when something wrong is happening right in front of them.
I don't have a right answer for you. All I can say is that silence is terrible. My own family has said prejudiced, hurtful things in front of my wife and I, and it HURTS, and I cannot respect them the same. It doesn't make it better that they're trying or that they have welcomed my wife otherwise. It is terrible to choose between silence to keep the peace or speaking up and "causing trouble". Silence supports the status quo, and it can be just as toxic as making waves.
I don't think tit-for-tat will accomplish your goals, but neither do I think you can just "be the better person" here, either. Being the better person sometimes has to mean an active response, not just "smile and shuffle past the awkward going-to-hell stuff". At some point it may have to mean "I don't agree with you and, while you are entitled to your beliefs, you aren't entitled to my respect and you don't have it."
posted by nakedmolerats at 10:48 AM on April 2, 2015 [6 favorites]
I think you are going to have a long road with your nieces and nephews. You will likely be seen as stirring the pot if you try to disagree with their parents or explain your own beliefs. Your siblings may decide to limit your contact with them. It is, and it will be very tempting to just keep your mouth shut so that you can continue seeing them.
A lot of the advice here, I'm reading as "be bigger, turn the other cheek, be kinder and more God-like to them than they are and then you will win." But, to be silent to keep the peace will be demonstrating to their children that you agree, or at least tolerate their beliefs. Will your siblings be telling their children someday that your father was misguided or immoral in his love? How will you respond to that?
If , as you say, the good terms are at the expense of you shutting up and letting them do and say prejudiced, hurtful things, then they are not good terms AND they demonstrate to their children that one should look the other way when something wrong is happening right in front of them.
I don't have a right answer for you. All I can say is that silence is terrible. My own family has said prejudiced, hurtful things in front of my wife and I, and it HURTS, and I cannot respect them the same. It doesn't make it better that they're trying or that they have welcomed my wife otherwise. It is terrible to choose between silence to keep the peace or speaking up and "causing trouble". Silence supports the status quo, and it can be just as toxic as making waves.
I don't think tit-for-tat will accomplish your goals, but neither do I think you can just "be the better person" here, either. Being the better person sometimes has to mean an active response, not just "smile and shuffle past the awkward going-to-hell stuff". At some point it may have to mean "I don't agree with you and, while you are entitled to your beliefs, you aren't entitled to my respect and you don't have it."
posted by nakedmolerats at 10:48 AM on April 2, 2015 [6 favorites]
Also, if you want to avoid sounding "revengy" by using the same word your brothers are using about your dad's spouse to refer to their wives, you could use it to refer to your own as well. After all, your husbands and wives are partners also, and it's a perfectly good word. So you could just embrace it and call everyone "partner" and then their attempt at discrimination is softened...
posted by mdn at 11:38 AM on April 2, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by mdn at 11:38 AM on April 2, 2015 [1 favorite]
Mod note: One comment deleted. Folks, please don't debate OP's description of the situation or try to diagnose "the real problem", and don't come back to the thread multiple times to debate other commenters. Thanks.
posted by LobsterMitten (staff) at 1:30 PM on April 2, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by LobsterMitten (staff) at 1:30 PM on April 2, 2015 [2 favorites]
To begin with, let me start by saying I'm very sorry for your loss and also for the rift in your family that is being exacerbated thereby.
Even if your brothers are too fearful or too proud to do the right thing, compassion is the answer to your dilemma.
Would it help you to look at things from a different angle by considering that your brothers have not only suffered the same loss of a parent that you have but are also victims of a twisted teaching that assures them that the father they lost is damned to unending perpetual torment simply for the fact of loving differently than the majority of people do? If they are actually sincere and consistent in their faith that's a terrible thing to process, and by virtue of the community with which they have surrounded themselves there possibly aren't many others around them who can or will help them with it.
You are dealing with grief, which is heavy enough. They are likely dealing with grief, shame, and fear simultaneously.
It's true that their behavior towards your father and his spouse could be more respectful. If you truly feel like you need a lever to move them with you can try asking them how their behavior towards your father's spouse and their unwillingness to describe that relationship in the way your father did is in agreement with the Biblical command to honor their father and their mother. Or you can point out to them that their refusal accomplishes little by way of virtue and causes harm and pain to you and your father's spouse when they do it and then ask them whether the example they are setting is more like the Bible's description of the compassion of Christ or more like its portrayal of the officious Scribes and Pharisees. But I truly urge you not to have this fight, particularly at your father's memorial service.
It's not appeasement to forgive your brothers' weakness. It's strength. Be strong. Be compassionate. Be the bigger person. And set an example of gracious conduct that may someday be of benefit to your nieces and nephews when one day they are old enough to understand.
posted by Nerd of the North at 2:47 PM on April 2, 2015
Even if your brothers are too fearful or too proud to do the right thing, compassion is the answer to your dilemma.
Would it help you to look at things from a different angle by considering that your brothers have not only suffered the same loss of a parent that you have but are also victims of a twisted teaching that assures them that the father they lost is damned to unending perpetual torment simply for the fact of loving differently than the majority of people do? If they are actually sincere and consistent in their faith that's a terrible thing to process, and by virtue of the community with which they have surrounded themselves there possibly aren't many others around them who can or will help them with it.
You are dealing with grief, which is heavy enough. They are likely dealing with grief, shame, and fear simultaneously.
It's true that their behavior towards your father and his spouse could be more respectful. If you truly feel like you need a lever to move them with you can try asking them how their behavior towards your father's spouse and their unwillingness to describe that relationship in the way your father did is in agreement with the Biblical command to honor their father and their mother. Or you can point out to them that their refusal accomplishes little by way of virtue and causes harm and pain to you and your father's spouse when they do it and then ask them whether the example they are setting is more like the Bible's description of the compassion of Christ or more like its portrayal of the officious Scribes and Pharisees. But I truly urge you not to have this fight, particularly at your father's memorial service.
It's not appeasement to forgive your brothers' weakness. It's strength. Be strong. Be compassionate. Be the bigger person. And set an example of gracious conduct that may someday be of benefit to your nieces and nephews when one day they are old enough to understand.
posted by Nerd of the North at 2:47 PM on April 2, 2015
A good retaliation or response to honestly, anything has to involve the other party even noticing you responded.
I don't know what you should do, and i think you've gotten some good suggestions here, but i'm on team "your tit for tat plan as stated might completely go over their heads".
You might not even sound "weird", it's completely possible they won't notice and neither will anyone else unless you've talked to them in advance about this plan.
And even in the err... "best" case scenario where they do notice, what do you think it will even accomplish? It will feel good, but it'll likely just piss them off and make them act like more of dicks which is just embarrassing in this context.
No plan where the outcomes range from pointless to bad is a solid plan.
posted by emptythought at 3:09 PM on April 2, 2015
I don't know what you should do, and i think you've gotten some good suggestions here, but i'm on team "your tit for tat plan as stated might completely go over their heads".
You might not even sound "weird", it's completely possible they won't notice and neither will anyone else unless you've talked to them in advance about this plan.
And even in the err... "best" case scenario where they do notice, what do you think it will even accomplish? It will feel good, but it'll likely just piss them off and make them act like more of dicks which is just embarrassing in this context.
No plan where the outcomes range from pointless to bad is a solid plan.
posted by emptythought at 3:09 PM on April 2, 2015
Taking the high road is never about what the other person deserves*. It's always about You doing what's right.
*Plenty of people deserve to be drawn & quartered or tarred & feathered. Doesn't mean it's the right thing for you to do.
My point: If they want to be asshats, that's their decision. dont let them drag you down with them.
posted by Neekee at 3:11 PM on April 2, 2015 [1 favorite]
*Plenty of people deserve to be drawn & quartered or tarred & feathered. Doesn't mean it's the right thing for you to do.
My point: If they want to be asshats, that's their decision. dont let them drag you down with them.
posted by Neekee at 3:11 PM on April 2, 2015 [1 favorite]
Response by poster: Given all the helpful answers, I showed this thread to my stepfather, who replied:
What a wonderful way to get feedback; I'm taking time to read through all the responses carefully. I do agree that confronting [brothers] will not change their minds; I'd rather you spend time promoting the positives in my relationship with your father. That, to me, is the greatest gift you could give us.
I'm marking as best answer the one whose last paragraph my stepfather said he "particularly appreciated so far".
p.s. my twin sis also responded to the thread: I agree you should be a loving aunt. (we're fraternal twins, I'm an uncle, and she's having fun with her twin brother.)
posted by airing nerdy laundry at 7:44 PM on April 2, 2015 [4 favorites]
What a wonderful way to get feedback; I'm taking time to read through all the responses carefully. I do agree that confronting [brothers] will not change their minds; I'd rather you spend time promoting the positives in my relationship with your father. That, to me, is the greatest gift you could give us.
I'm marking as best answer the one whose last paragraph my stepfather said he "particularly appreciated so far".
p.s. my twin sis also responded to the thread: I agree you should be a loving aunt. (we're fraternal twins, I'm an uncle, and she's having fun with her twin brother.)
posted by airing nerdy laundry at 7:44 PM on April 2, 2015 [4 favorites]
As a former evangelical, now not religious at all, the way out for me was through people being themselves and liking being themselves in ways that were outside the prescribed ways of being. A very early blog introduced me to a gay couple with a sense of humour I greatly appreciated.
It was confusing to hear one thing at church about the issue of homosexuality, and another online about Mr and Mr's day to day happy life. I wanted to admit that I liked them the way they were. I couldn't. It would have been a betrayal to Someone I owed everything to.
I hear your brothers' use of "partner" as a middle ground. "Spouse" would be taking a stance on the issue in a way that would jeopardize their church life and internal safety. "Partner" keeps your stepfather linked to them in a less psychologically dangerous way.
When I say dangerous I mean that these little rules are all hooked into the Christ that keeps them and their children safe, that is the basis for self-esteem, that is the linchpin of their whole world. Taking that pin out was catastrophic for me. I made it through and I'm glad now but it is not a light task.
The high ground is always hard fought for. It's difficult and it's valuable. You have the privilege of setting the tone you want to have with your family. One of acceptance, one that is not petty, one that remains open and soft, one that is not bullheaded, one that forgives and welcomes yet again. One that is clear about the joy you share in your father's life and his marriage. One that keeps an eye on the horizon and keeps a light in the window so either brother could come to you later and say "I've changed my mind about this" without losing face. Don't force them into a stronger position than they've already taken. Make the way out easier for them and their kids.
My condolences to all of you for your loss of your father and spouse.
posted by heatherann at 6:41 AM on April 3, 2015 [2 favorites]
It was confusing to hear one thing at church about the issue of homosexuality, and another online about Mr and Mr's day to day happy life. I wanted to admit that I liked them the way they were. I couldn't. It would have been a betrayal to Someone I owed everything to.
I hear your brothers' use of "partner" as a middle ground. "Spouse" would be taking a stance on the issue in a way that would jeopardize their church life and internal safety. "Partner" keeps your stepfather linked to them in a less psychologically dangerous way.
When I say dangerous I mean that these little rules are all hooked into the Christ that keeps them and their children safe, that is the basis for self-esteem, that is the linchpin of their whole world. Taking that pin out was catastrophic for me. I made it through and I'm glad now but it is not a light task.
The high ground is always hard fought for. It's difficult and it's valuable. You have the privilege of setting the tone you want to have with your family. One of acceptance, one that is not petty, one that remains open and soft, one that is not bullheaded, one that forgives and welcomes yet again. One that is clear about the joy you share in your father's life and his marriage. One that keeps an eye on the horizon and keeps a light in the window so either brother could come to you later and say "I've changed my mind about this" without losing face. Don't force them into a stronger position than they've already taken. Make the way out easier for them and their kids.
My condolences to all of you for your loss of your father and spouse.
posted by heatherann at 6:41 AM on April 3, 2015 [2 favorites]
I have an evangelical in my close family, and I think you can do a tit-for-tat AND take the high road.
Have you ever heard the evangelicals in your life say: "we're just gonna love on them..." — the idea that if they just pour enough of Jesus's love on the sinner, that magic will happen and their hearts will turn?
Well, I'm not religious but I think there's something to that.
So "Love On Them". Tit for tat. Just love on your evangelical family, with a smile, with a steely spine in your back (and using the word, "husband" and "spouse" as much as you can...) knowing your love and acceptance of all people is truly the high road. And hope that through your shining example of love and tolerance that someday they, and their children, might learn to be truly compassionate, loving human beings.
Or, in a shorthand, the best advice I've ever been given for awkward situations:
"Rise above it and kill em with kindness."
posted by amoeba at 8:44 AM on April 4, 2015
Have you ever heard the evangelicals in your life say: "we're just gonna love on them..." — the idea that if they just pour enough of Jesus's love on the sinner, that magic will happen and their hearts will turn?
Well, I'm not religious but I think there's something to that.
So "Love On Them". Tit for tat. Just love on your evangelical family, with a smile, with a steely spine in your back (and using the word, "husband" and "spouse" as much as you can...) knowing your love and acceptance of all people is truly the high road. And hope that through your shining example of love and tolerance that someday they, and their children, might learn to be truly compassionate, loving human beings.
Or, in a shorthand, the best advice I've ever been given for awkward situations:
"Rise above it and kill em with kindness."
posted by amoeba at 8:44 AM on April 4, 2015
This thread is closed to new comments.
It might make you feel marginally better in the short run. It will fix precisely nothing. My mom introduced her sister's partner as "her friend" at my mom's wedding, and that was the most charitable any of us expected of her, and trying to be like this about it would have just made things more difficult over the long run. You are not going to fix them. They believe what they believe. If having a gay parent get married was not enough to change their opinions, this will not. The thing that works, insofar as anything "works", is accepting that this person you are related to believes some dumb stuff and that you should generally avoid those areas when you're interacting with them. I get along tolerably well with my mom and stepdad, these days--that situation would last almost no time at all if I was confrontational about everything on the list of dumb things they believe.
posted by Sequence at 4:09 AM on April 2, 2015 [6 favorites]