now my kid believes in Santa but we don't want to lie to her
December 8, 2014 4:08 AM Subscribe
When my daughter was born my partner and I decided not to do the Santa lie but this year (she's five and a half) she is really upset about it all now that she's picking up on other people's beliefs. What do you say about beliefs when it's the rest of the world who did this to your kid?
Primarily the upset is because she's decided that Santa is real, and that because we don't believe, she is being left out. She had a late night tonight, and was crying because "you and daddy buy things before Christmas and give them to me and Santa never comes". I told her we'll talk after she's had a sleep, since she was overwrought, which has given me a bit of space. Hence, askmefi, since I'm not finding many resources on 'other people made my kid believe in Santa, how do I fix this?'.
The way Christmas goes for us - I'm a theist, my partner is a little a athiest who is very apathetic - is that we buy minimal things, decorate as we want, and spend Christmas with our families. We never buy gifts and say they're from Santa (we do buy gifts though), we don't threaten/bribe with Santa, any of that. Which has been fine until this year.
Last year her older cousin - trying to be helpful I assume - told her all sorts of crap about Santa. And at school they obviously don't tell the kids it's not real, and so have been hammering it home pretty heavily with stories and arts and crafts. Our closest relatives and families all do Santa to varying degrees, from a picture every year and Santa gives you school gear, to full-on icing sugar snow and nibbled cookies and threats that if you're naughty Santa will take away your gifts. So she has picked up all of this (the curse of the empathic and observant child) and melded it into this story where Santa is real for everyone but her, and is really upset about it. Partially with my partner and I - it's our disbelief, we're usurping Santa and so on - and partially just five year old angst about being left out and partially fear that it's because she is 'naughty' and if she just believed more he would come.
I don't know what to do or what to tell her. The stuff I told her last year - it's a lovely story, St Nicholas, little baby Jesus - just can't compete with the guy in red and a whole world determined to make her believe for their own sake. I mean, everyone feels comfortable threatening her with Santa, how do we deal with that? What are some awesome things I can tell her about Christmas and Santa even, that are true and help keep some of the specialness she's obviously seeing in Santa, without the lies. It's this really complex question about realness of Santa, bound up in a lot of emotional drama, and I can't find anything to help me (although for practicality I think emjaybee's suggestion will probably work). And I hate seeing her sad like this, over a decision my partner and I made.
Note: I am not going to lie to her about Santa, so that's not an option to countenance, and I don't instruct her in my faith either so making it all about Jesus isn't something I will do either. In laws are very pro-Santa and there has been drama about it before.
Primarily the upset is because she's decided that Santa is real, and that because we don't believe, she is being left out. She had a late night tonight, and was crying because "you and daddy buy things before Christmas and give them to me and Santa never comes". I told her we'll talk after she's had a sleep, since she was overwrought, which has given me a bit of space. Hence, askmefi, since I'm not finding many resources on 'other people made my kid believe in Santa, how do I fix this?'.
The way Christmas goes for us - I'm a theist, my partner is a little a athiest who is very apathetic - is that we buy minimal things, decorate as we want, and spend Christmas with our families. We never buy gifts and say they're from Santa (we do buy gifts though), we don't threaten/bribe with Santa, any of that. Which has been fine until this year.
Last year her older cousin - trying to be helpful I assume - told her all sorts of crap about Santa. And at school they obviously don't tell the kids it's not real, and so have been hammering it home pretty heavily with stories and arts and crafts. Our closest relatives and families all do Santa to varying degrees, from a picture every year and Santa gives you school gear, to full-on icing sugar snow and nibbled cookies and threats that if you're naughty Santa will take away your gifts. So she has picked up all of this (the curse of the empathic and observant child) and melded it into this story where Santa is real for everyone but her, and is really upset about it. Partially with my partner and I - it's our disbelief, we're usurping Santa and so on - and partially just five year old angst about being left out and partially fear that it's because she is 'naughty' and if she just believed more he would come.
I don't know what to do or what to tell her. The stuff I told her last year - it's a lovely story, St Nicholas, little baby Jesus - just can't compete with the guy in red and a whole world determined to make her believe for their own sake. I mean, everyone feels comfortable threatening her with Santa, how do we deal with that? What are some awesome things I can tell her about Christmas and Santa even, that are true and help keep some of the specialness she's obviously seeing in Santa, without the lies. It's this really complex question about realness of Santa, bound up in a lot of emotional drama, and I can't find anything to help me (although for practicality I think emjaybee's suggestion will probably work). And I hate seeing her sad like this, over a decision my partner and I made.
Note: I am not going to lie to her about Santa, so that's not an option to countenance, and I don't instruct her in my faith either so making it all about Jesus isn't something I will do either. In laws are very pro-Santa and there has been drama about it before.
We went through exactly the same thing with our kids. Completely ignored Santa, didn't say anything about him, but then they picked it up from other kids in the neighborhood and drama ensued.
What I wound up telling them was that Santa was a make-believe game that people like to play, and some families really enjoyed pretending that Santa was giving them some presents.
Kid: "But I want presents from Santa!"
Me: "So you would like us to play the game and pretend to be Santa, too?"
Kid: "Yes, play the Santa game with me!"
Me: "Okay, I'll choose some presents and say they are from Santa, and we'll play the game."
Now, honestly, my kids are young and I'm quite certain that the littlest ones are pretty iffy on how much this is game and how much this is real. It's not exactly how I hoped it would play out, but every year we talk about the Santa game, and how fun the Santa game is. That way they get annual reminders that this is all make-believe, but they don't miss out on participating. Plus, we really emphasize that part of the Santa game is always acting like Santa is real in front of other kids, so that our kids don't ruin the fun for some other family with different values.
This isn't how I planned, but it's a compromise we can live with.
posted by Pater Aletheias at 4:24 AM on December 8, 2014 [95 favorites]
What I wound up telling them was that Santa was a make-believe game that people like to play, and some families really enjoyed pretending that Santa was giving them some presents.
Kid: "But I want presents from Santa!"
Me: "So you would like us to play the game and pretend to be Santa, too?"
Kid: "Yes, play the Santa game with me!"
Me: "Okay, I'll choose some presents and say they are from Santa, and we'll play the game."
Now, honestly, my kids are young and I'm quite certain that the littlest ones are pretty iffy on how much this is game and how much this is real. It's not exactly how I hoped it would play out, but every year we talk about the Santa game, and how fun the Santa game is. That way they get annual reminders that this is all make-believe, but they don't miss out on participating. Plus, we really emphasize that part of the Santa game is always acting like Santa is real in front of other kids, so that our kids don't ruin the fun for some other family with different values.
This isn't how I planned, but it's a compromise we can live with.
posted by Pater Aletheias at 4:24 AM on December 8, 2014 [95 favorites]
Also, when she starts losing teeth, this is going to happen with the tooth fairy, if you also think that's a lie. It will be very hard for this little girl to be the only one who doesn't get visits from the tooth fairy. If you DO do or plan to do the tooth fairy, just think of Santa the same way. These are just cultural rituals of pretend that play with a kids' uncanny ability to live in both reality and the fictional at the same time.
posted by third rail at 4:25 AM on December 8, 2014 [17 favorites]
posted by third rail at 4:25 AM on December 8, 2014 [17 favorites]
Huh; usually kids find out there's no Santa and suffer with, "What else do my parents lie to me about?"
When my kids were younger I also had a pro-Santa family and because I also wanted to be honest with my kids but also NOT have them be the kids who spoiled it for everyone at preschool, I walked this stupid line of, "If you believe in Santa he'll come and if you don't I'll get you presents. That's how it works."
When my kids got the SantaTruthBomb they were mostly okay with it. They just really wanted presents.
Your kid just really wants presents. It's not as deep as you think.
Kids also kind of know/not know about Santa at the same time. They "believe" in a way they believe their pretend lives.
Quoted for truth. Kids are a lot more comfortable aligning these forces in their heads than adults. I mean, watch adults make sense of "Back to the Future" compared to a kid believing in the Tooth Fairy. Kids can do this.
You can just tell her that you love her and you will make sure she gets presents this year, no matter what anyone else says because that's what parents DO. They take care of their kids.
And if she asks you point blank if you believe in Santa and you don't want to fudge, tell her that you believe in the STORY of Santa and it's a story lots of people like, and not everyone believes in the story. Just like not everyone celebrates Xmas.
posted by kinetic at 4:27 AM on December 8, 2014 [2 favorites]
When my kids were younger I also had a pro-Santa family and because I also wanted to be honest with my kids but also NOT have them be the kids who spoiled it for everyone at preschool, I walked this stupid line of, "If you believe in Santa he'll come and if you don't I'll get you presents. That's how it works."
When my kids got the SantaTruthBomb they were mostly okay with it. They just really wanted presents.
Your kid just really wants presents. It's not as deep as you think.
Kids also kind of know/not know about Santa at the same time. They "believe" in a way they believe their pretend lives.
Quoted for truth. Kids are a lot more comfortable aligning these forces in their heads than adults. I mean, watch adults make sense of "Back to the Future" compared to a kid believing in the Tooth Fairy. Kids can do this.
You can just tell her that you love her and you will make sure she gets presents this year, no matter what anyone else says because that's what parents DO. They take care of their kids.
And if she asks you point blank if you believe in Santa and you don't want to fudge, tell her that you believe in the STORY of Santa and it's a story lots of people like, and not everyone believes in the story. Just like not everyone celebrates Xmas.
posted by kinetic at 4:27 AM on December 8, 2014 [2 favorites]
Would you be able to explain it to her in terms of her favourite cartoon character? So "You know how you love Dora the Explorer/Disney character/etc? Well Santa is like that. He's not a real person but lots of people love him anyway and like to draw his picture and pretend he has come to visit." Then you could add emjaybee's suggestion and say "Would you like us to play the Santa game too and pretend he has come to visit you?"
I know it must be hard to see her distressed now, but you're saving her being distressed later on. My friend's 8 year old found out last year from older kids that Santa isn't real. He said to her - no joke - "I can't believe you and Dad have been lying to me! You have RUINED my LIFE!!"
posted by billiebee at 4:30 AM on December 8, 2014 [3 favorites]
I know it must be hard to see her distressed now, but you're saving her being distressed later on. My friend's 8 year old found out last year from older kids that Santa isn't real. He said to her - no joke - "I can't believe you and Dad have been lying to me! You have RUINED my LIFE!!"
posted by billiebee at 4:30 AM on December 8, 2014 [3 favorites]
While Santa as we know him is not real, St Nicholas was certainly a real person and it might help to tell her his story. This way, you show her how she is right that there once was a real person who gave gifts to people in need, but the character we now know as Santa is not real and is a game that some parents play with their children to see how long they can get the child to believe it; however, you know she is smarter than that.
I know a five-year-old can't properly distinguish between fact and fiction, but that's why you as her parents have to be firm that there is a distinction until she's old enough to grasp it.
You might want to draw her attention away from the issue of Santa by encouraging her to contribute to schemes for giving gifts to poor or sick children. Frame it as "wouldn't you like to be Santa for someone else this year, now that you know the secret? shhh, don't tell! Secret giving is the best giving!"
The "don't tell" part is important too, because you also don't want her thinking she has to go around correcting everyone else. Giving her a reason to keep a secret - a better reason than "just let the sheeple think what they want because you're superior" - is probably your only hope for avoiding this kind of drama.
Disclosure: I was not brought up to believe in Santa either; it was always perfectly clear to me that my parents bought my gifts. As a mercenary, rather than spiritual, person my only concern was whether I got the loot, not who was providing it.
Also disclosure: I learned at the age of five not to tread on other people's belief systems when I said something dismissive about Santa and my friend shushed me in evident fear of the backlash onto her. I mumbled a sheepish apology, rather than trying to change her mind. Clearly she believed in Santa and was not open to having her belief challenged, so, oh well.
posted by tel3path at 5:02 AM on December 8, 2014 [6 favorites]
I know a five-year-old can't properly distinguish between fact and fiction, but that's why you as her parents have to be firm that there is a distinction until she's old enough to grasp it.
You might want to draw her attention away from the issue of Santa by encouraging her to contribute to schemes for giving gifts to poor or sick children. Frame it as "wouldn't you like to be Santa for someone else this year, now that you know the secret? shhh, don't tell! Secret giving is the best giving!"
The "don't tell" part is important too, because you also don't want her thinking she has to go around correcting everyone else. Giving her a reason to keep a secret - a better reason than "just let the sheeple think what they want because you're superior" - is probably your only hope for avoiding this kind of drama.
Disclosure: I was not brought up to believe in Santa either; it was always perfectly clear to me that my parents bought my gifts. As a mercenary, rather than spiritual, person my only concern was whether I got the loot, not who was providing it.
Also disclosure: I learned at the age of five not to tread on other people's belief systems when I said something dismissive about Santa and my friend shushed me in evident fear of the backlash onto her. I mumbled a sheepish apology, rather than trying to change her mind. Clearly she believed in Santa and was not open to having her belief challenged, so, oh well.
posted by tel3path at 5:02 AM on December 8, 2014 [6 favorites]
I was always ready to answer my children (13 and 9 now) honestly when they asked me if Santa Claus was real, but they never really asked. I think they, like me when I was a kid, really want Santa to be a presence at Christmas and so if anything he's more of a metaphor than an actual real life person. That's how you can explain why there are so many Santas lounging around in shopping centres from early December. In my family the good gifts always come from individual family members and Santa raids the dollar shop and leaves a Christmas-themed pillow slip filled with silly stuff at the end of the bed; that's how it was with me and that's how it is with my kids. Kids adapt. Santa can be whatever you want him to be.
posted by h00py at 5:02 AM on December 8, 2014 [5 favorites]
posted by h00py at 5:02 AM on December 8, 2014 [5 favorites]
It really is about the presents. A lot of kids, maybe most, figure it out a year or two before they let on to mom and/or dad. But they play along out of fear of the presents are part of the Santa deal. And for most parents, getting to play Santa is a big part of the fun of the holiday. It becomes just a little bit less fun when it all becomes real, particularly if you don't have the religious myths to keep some of the "magic" in the holiday.
posted by COD at 5:10 AM on December 8, 2014 [2 favorites]
posted by COD at 5:10 AM on December 8, 2014 [2 favorites]
This year say, "OK, no need to feel left out, we can have Santa too, if you want," and then do the little ritual.
Ehh. Don't do this. Kids really hate being patronized. I think you're doing the opposite of what you think. Parents need to be more mindful of inflicting their issues thoughts and neuroses onto their children. The "Santa lie" is not a nefarious social scheme. It's just a fun thing which your kids only get to enjoy for a very few years.
Here's my suggestion for an escape route:
1. Premise. Santa is real (wait wait...)
2. Read the velveteen rabbit to solve that mental gap
3. Buy one special thing from Santa and let your kid have a little magic.
Seriously. This isn't the issue you think it is. There are all kinds of "real" especially for 5 years old. With kindness I suggest that you don't be a pedagogue on this one and just let some magic exist.
Good luck!
posted by chasles at 5:16 AM on December 8, 2014 [10 favorites]
Ehh. Don't do this. Kids really hate being patronized. I think you're doing the opposite of what you think. Parents need to be more mindful of inflicting their issues thoughts and neuroses onto their children. The "Santa lie" is not a nefarious social scheme. It's just a fun thing which your kids only get to enjoy for a very few years.
Here's my suggestion for an escape route:
1. Premise. Santa is real (wait wait...)
2. Read the velveteen rabbit to solve that mental gap
3. Buy one special thing from Santa and let your kid have a little magic.
Seriously. This isn't the issue you think it is. There are all kinds of "real" especially for 5 years old. With kindness I suggest that you don't be a pedagogue on this one and just let some magic exist.
Good luck!
posted by chasles at 5:16 AM on December 8, 2014 [10 favorites]
I'm with others, play the Santa game. Buy one present and say it was from Santa.
In addition to that, I would tell the story of St. Nicholas and have you and your daughter pick out a gift or two for a child in need. Toys for Tots or the Angel Tree for kids in foster care. Explain how while the Santa legend is about kids like her getting presents, that it's also about generosity and helping the less fortunate.
posted by Ruthless Bunny at 5:19 AM on December 8, 2014 [3 favorites]
In addition to that, I would tell the story of St. Nicholas and have you and your daughter pick out a gift or two for a child in need. Toys for Tots or the Angel Tree for kids in foster care. Explain how while the Santa legend is about kids like her getting presents, that it's also about generosity and helping the less fortunate.
posted by Ruthless Bunny at 5:19 AM on December 8, 2014 [3 favorites]
I'm Hindu, born and raised in the US, and as a little girl, even I liked to think maybe Santa was real. My mom never participated in pretending so I missed out on something kind of fun, even if I would have outgrown it.
It sucks a little when you have friends whose families are having fun and you're always enduring reality because your parents aren't into something. I'm still Hindu, thirty years later, I still put up the tree, put up my wreath, throw a holiday party. I grew up in a Jewish community and still celebrate Hannukah with friends. I like celebrating. I don't think Santa is a lie---it's a story/folktale. It's just for fun. And kids grow out of it.
So maybe just take her to see Santa at the mall or whatever. We have cute pictures of when I was little and my mom did take us to see Santa.
Or expose her to different holidays and teach it like a learning experience if you have to.
And outside influences will always have an effect on your child, unless you plan to homeschool her and keep her from society at large.
posted by discopolo at 5:22 AM on December 8, 2014 [20 favorites]
It sucks a little when you have friends whose families are having fun and you're always enduring reality because your parents aren't into something. I'm still Hindu, thirty years later, I still put up the tree, put up my wreath, throw a holiday party. I grew up in a Jewish community and still celebrate Hannukah with friends. I like celebrating. I don't think Santa is a lie---it's a story/folktale. It's just for fun. And kids grow out of it.
So maybe just take her to see Santa at the mall or whatever. We have cute pictures of when I was little and my mom did take us to see Santa.
Or expose her to different holidays and teach it like a learning experience if you have to.
And outside influences will always have an effect on your child, unless you plan to homeschool her and keep her from society at large.
posted by discopolo at 5:22 AM on December 8, 2014 [20 favorites]
I do not personally know anyone who carries around childhood trauma about Santa or the Easter bunny or the tooth fairy, even though kids might get upset at some point about how real or not-real these figures are. This is a temporary problem, so do try to keep that in mind. If you have to play along with the charade, it will only be a few years maximum that you have to do so.
Something that I think is really interesting and important are variations on these kind of traditions, and maybe this is a an opportunity to teach your child about how different people celebrate different things. You could tell her about how grandma and grandpa believe in Santa, but how, for one example, some children in Germany leave their boots out on the 6th of December so that St Nikolaus (St Nicholas) can fill them with toys and candy. That way, she can go along with the tradition of Santa if she wants, but will hopefully also be respectful of the fact that not everyone believes in him.
posted by kinddieserzeit at 5:23 AM on December 8, 2014 [4 favorites]
Something that I think is really interesting and important are variations on these kind of traditions, and maybe this is a an opportunity to teach your child about how different people celebrate different things. You could tell her about how grandma and grandpa believe in Santa, but how, for one example, some children in Germany leave their boots out on the 6th of December so that St Nikolaus (St Nicholas) can fill them with toys and candy. That way, she can go along with the tradition of Santa if she wants, but will hopefully also be respectful of the fact that not everyone believes in him.
posted by kinddieserzeit at 5:23 AM on December 8, 2014 [4 favorites]
Anecdata. We're Jewish. My Dad also happens to look like Santa/Jerry Garcia. He was always the guy who dressed up in a Santa suit and handed out presents. Ever since I was little I watched him put the suit on and hand out the presents. Did that mean I didn't get Santa or want Santa in my life? Nope.
Sissy and I complained one year that because we didn't celebrate Christmas that we didn't get presents from Santa. So Christmas morning we each had a present at the foot of our beds. Then we went to a movie and ate Chinese food.
Santa is a social construct it's not so terrible to participate.
posted by Ruthless Bunny at 5:24 AM on December 8, 2014 [11 favorites]
Sissy and I complained one year that because we didn't celebrate Christmas that we didn't get presents from Santa. So Christmas morning we each had a present at the foot of our beds. Then we went to a movie and ate Chinese food.
Santa is a social construct it's not so terrible to participate.
posted by Ruthless Bunny at 5:24 AM on December 8, 2014 [11 favorites]
Ugh, I always press post too soon:
Continuing on with the idea of telling her how her grandparents believe in Santa and she can too, this also provides a potential opening to take some of the pressure to participate in Santa-related activities off you. If your in-laws live near by, maybe they'd be happy to engage with her on the subject. Writing letters to the north pole, baking cookies, making stockings, all that kind of stuff.
posted by kinddieserzeit at 5:26 AM on December 8, 2014 [1 favorite]
Continuing on with the idea of telling her how her grandparents believe in Santa and she can too, this also provides a potential opening to take some of the pressure to participate in Santa-related activities off you. If your in-laws live near by, maybe they'd be happy to engage with her on the subject. Writing letters to the north pole, baking cookies, making stockings, all that kind of stuff.
posted by kinddieserzeit at 5:26 AM on December 8, 2014 [1 favorite]
What do you mean Santa isn't real?
Santa is one of the most real people there is, except for the fact that he exists in so many people at different times. The random elderly couple that buys toys for children in the toy store just because they are cute is Santa. Every person who gets something to give to anyone just to make them happy is Santa. You when you get presents for your daughter ARE Santa.
If you want, I think I can arrange for a phone call from a true Santa (aka my Dad). He has the costume and the beard (more salt and pepper than pure white but close enough) and he even has some sleigh bells. He dons the costume and turns on the lights in my small hometown every friday after thanksgiving. He gets all of the kids on his knee (and knows most of them by name) and takes their letters and their requests for xmas. He usually writes some letters back as well because kids love getting a letter from Santa not just giving him a letter. He wanders around the school in costume on the last day before xmas so he can visit all of the kids and lead the school in some nice sing song before it ends and then every kid gets a candy cane. He makes sure that the little kids are in bed early enough for the parents to get some sleep by giving them a call when it is time and saying that he will be there in 10 minutes so they need to get to sleep fast (and sometimes he will even show up and ring the bells and that gets the kids to bed ASAP) While this Santa doesn't live at the North Pole he does live in Vermont which is close enough, and Santa really enjoys giving kids just a little magic and wonder while they are still young enough to really believe before the real world sets in.
posted by koolkat at 5:26 AM on December 8, 2014 [35 favorites]
Santa is one of the most real people there is, except for the fact that he exists in so many people at different times. The random elderly couple that buys toys for children in the toy store just because they are cute is Santa. Every person who gets something to give to anyone just to make them happy is Santa. You when you get presents for your daughter ARE Santa.
If you want, I think I can arrange for a phone call from a true Santa (aka my Dad). He has the costume and the beard (more salt and pepper than pure white but close enough) and he even has some sleigh bells. He dons the costume and turns on the lights in my small hometown every friday after thanksgiving. He gets all of the kids on his knee (and knows most of them by name) and takes their letters and their requests for xmas. He usually writes some letters back as well because kids love getting a letter from Santa not just giving him a letter. He wanders around the school in costume on the last day before xmas so he can visit all of the kids and lead the school in some nice sing song before it ends and then every kid gets a candy cane. He makes sure that the little kids are in bed early enough for the parents to get some sleep by giving them a call when it is time and saying that he will be there in 10 minutes so they need to get to sleep fast (and sometimes he will even show up and ring the bells and that gets the kids to bed ASAP) While this Santa doesn't live at the North Pole he does live in Vermont which is close enough, and Santa really enjoys giving kids just a little magic and wonder while they are still young enough to really believe before the real world sets in.
posted by koolkat at 5:26 AM on December 8, 2014 [35 favorites]
Maybe it would be a good time, if you haven't done it already, to discuss all the varieties of religion and folklore that exist in the world today. Factually, Santa does not exist in all cultures, so maybe broadening her knowledge of how the rest of the world celebrates Christmas, ritualizes tooth loss, reconciles a solar eclipse, or my favorite, decided that the "... and to the republic, for which it stands, under God..." is more accurate that saying "under Canada". Santa is just one of many, many beliefs that humans have, so expanding it beyond American ritual may help her understand the breadth of the situation. Nonetheless, maybe being a Santa agnostic is the way to go, you cant' prove he doesn't exist, but you could rationalize that maybe he is working through you to provide the presents because you have proven to be "chosen" for the task rather than parents who need a bit of help from the elves and such. Santa loves your child like all the little children, and he works in mysterious ways.
posted by waving at 5:35 AM on December 8, 2014 [3 favorites]
posted by waving at 5:35 AM on December 8, 2014 [3 favorites]
The way that I handle it with my three children is that I tell them Santa, the Easter Bunny, and the Tooth Fairy are all great stories and if they want to play along, they will get treats from them. Some people believe that they are real and it is impolite to tell them otherwise. My children get one Santa toy each. It is usually something wasteful that I would never buy for them, like mini-skill cranes (they loved them). For Easter, the 'bunny' leaves one large basket filled with enough loot for the entire family to share. It's all really fun and the kids like to pretend it is real. Since pretend play is a valuable part of childhood, I allow it. I don't lie to my children. When they ask questions that would require a lie, I remind them of it being a nice story.
posted by myselfasme at 5:40 AM on December 8, 2014 [4 favorites]
posted by myselfasme at 5:40 AM on December 8, 2014 [4 favorites]
Best answer: I was raised Muslim in the US, and not participating in the Santa myth at all. Every kid wants presents, but I found the whole Santa thing really bizarre and creepy as a kid.
My parents were frugal immigrants and I had 3 older siblings (hand me down toys), so getting presents and stuff was mostly just saved for birthdays (parents did go all out for those), but I never grew up feeling disappointed by not participating in the Santa/gift ritual. Winter break was often spent raiding the video store with my Jewish classmates, eating lots of cookies, and it was pretty fun nonetheless.
What DID bother me, was my public school peers suggesting I must have done something really bad and "naughty" to not get anything, and come back from break with no new stuff. It was sometimes relentless, and that annoyed the crap out of me - so I was often that kid who broke the news about Santa not being real. The whole concept just pissed me off - your parents are lying to you, but I'm bearing the brunt of being told I probably did something bad? Fuck that shit! So if you and your kids do participate in the Santa myth, please teach your kids to be kind to those families that don't. I know it's natural for kids to talk, share, and compare, but conversations need to be had about not everyone celebrating Christmas - maybe something along the lines of "Santa is real as long as you believe in him."
That said, my sister had a completely different experience. She felt sad about not participating in the "magic" of Santa, and really goes all out with the whole meeting with Santa/presents/cookies on x-mas eve thing with my nephew (8). My other sister's kids are older (12, 15) and never grew up believing in Santa, as very secular, public school "American" kids. They seem to also think it's kind of a weird and creepy concept. I don't think their parents ever got them gifts this time of year, but at some point I started giving them a little something simple as their auntie.
I swear I'm not as grinchy as a I sound. I love the seasonal colors, foods, other festivities and have a mini tree w/ some other holiday decorations in my home. Still, I just completely don't get the allure of the Santa ritual at all.
tl;dr - If I were you, I'd compromise - be honest with your child and not do the whole Santa game, but do get her some gifts so as to not feel left out.
posted by raztaj at 5:44 AM on December 8, 2014 [9 favorites]
My parents were frugal immigrants and I had 3 older siblings (hand me down toys), so getting presents and stuff was mostly just saved for birthdays (parents did go all out for those), but I never grew up feeling disappointed by not participating in the Santa/gift ritual. Winter break was often spent raiding the video store with my Jewish classmates, eating lots of cookies, and it was pretty fun nonetheless.
What DID bother me, was my public school peers suggesting I must have done something really bad and "naughty" to not get anything, and come back from break with no new stuff. It was sometimes relentless, and that annoyed the crap out of me - so I was often that kid who broke the news about Santa not being real. The whole concept just pissed me off - your parents are lying to you, but I'm bearing the brunt of being told I probably did something bad? Fuck that shit! So if you and your kids do participate in the Santa myth, please teach your kids to be kind to those families that don't. I know it's natural for kids to talk, share, and compare, but conversations need to be had about not everyone celebrating Christmas - maybe something along the lines of "Santa is real as long as you believe in him."
That said, my sister had a completely different experience. She felt sad about not participating in the "magic" of Santa, and really goes all out with the whole meeting with Santa/presents/cookies on x-mas eve thing with my nephew (8). My other sister's kids are older (12, 15) and never grew up believing in Santa, as very secular, public school "American" kids. They seem to also think it's kind of a weird and creepy concept. I don't think their parents ever got them gifts this time of year, but at some point I started giving them a little something simple as their auntie.
I swear I'm not as grinchy as a I sound. I love the seasonal colors, foods, other festivities and have a mini tree w/ some other holiday decorations in my home. Still, I just completely don't get the allure of the Santa ritual at all.
tl;dr - If I were you, I'd compromise - be honest with your child and not do the whole Santa game, but do get her some gifts so as to not feel left out.
posted by raztaj at 5:44 AM on December 8, 2014 [9 favorites]
My parents were honest from very early that there was no Santa, that it was a great story but total fiction, and that my presents came from them. There was no trauma and no confusion; it was no weirder than knowing that they provided birthday presents also, or that WWF wrestling was not an authentic athletic competition. (And knowing that it was fiction was no barrier to doing things like leaving cookies and milk out for Santa -- childhood is adaptable enough to account for both fiction and reality at once.)
The only weirdness was that one time I mentioned something about the fictionality of it to a friend and his mother overheard and yelled at me for saying something. So if your kid is in on the story, she may need to keep a bit quiet about it on occassion. (Obviously it was inappropriate for her to get that mad and yell at me, but people have Issues around Christmas and clearly that was one of hers.)
My personal guess is that people emphasize the Santa thing so much because it is a way of deemphasizing the commercial and acquisitive aspects of what was at one point a primarily religious holiday and now is almost entirely secular and, yes, commercial. People enjoy the holiday the way it is now (because if they didn't, they wouldn't participate, obviously) but there's some uncomfortable feelings as well, and focusing on Santa with the kids buffers that nicely for both parents and kids.
posted by Dip Flash at 5:53 AM on December 8, 2014 [6 favorites]
The only weirdness was that one time I mentioned something about the fictionality of it to a friend and his mother overheard and yelled at me for saying something. So if your kid is in on the story, she may need to keep a bit quiet about it on occassion. (Obviously it was inappropriate for her to get that mad and yell at me, but people have Issues around Christmas and clearly that was one of hers.)
My personal guess is that people emphasize the Santa thing so much because it is a way of deemphasizing the commercial and acquisitive aspects of what was at one point a primarily religious holiday and now is almost entirely secular and, yes, commercial. People enjoy the holiday the way it is now (because if they didn't, they wouldn't participate, obviously) but there's some uncomfortable feelings as well, and focusing on Santa with the kids buffers that nicely for both parents and kids.
posted by Dip Flash at 5:53 AM on December 8, 2014 [6 favorites]
Raztaj gets at the heart of the matter: There are lots of reasons for not wanting to play into the Santa myth. I would also like to know how to handle this question, but it appears like the above posters are not answering it. Various versions of "just play along" are not helping. So let me rephrase:
-What would you tell your kid about Santa if your religion prohibits saying that Santa is real?-
-What would you tell your kid about Santa if you have to choose between giving a Santa gift and putting food on the table?
-What would you tell your kid about Santa if your kid wants to know why their rich friend got more/better presents than they did?
-What would you tell your kid about Santa if for various reasons (including those above and others) you don't want to or can't give presents from Santa?
posted by yeolcoatl at 5:56 AM on December 8, 2014 [3 favorites]
-What would you tell your kid about Santa if your religion prohibits saying that Santa is real?-
-What would you tell your kid about Santa if you have to choose between giving a Santa gift and putting food on the table?
-What would you tell your kid about Santa if your kid wants to know why their rich friend got more/better presents than they did?
-What would you tell your kid about Santa if for various reasons (including those above and others) you don't want to or can't give presents from Santa?
posted by yeolcoatl at 5:56 AM on December 8, 2014 [3 favorites]
Other kids at daycare told my daughter all about a magical virgin birth in a barn on christmas eve. If she likes the story, and it's harmless, I'm happy with her enjoying one of the many mythological narratives about this fun mid-winter holiday.
posted by M.C. Lo-Carb! at 5:57 AM on December 8, 2014 [3 favorites]
posted by M.C. Lo-Carb! at 5:57 AM on December 8, 2014 [3 favorites]
Other kids at daycare told my daughter all about a magical virgin birth in a barn on christmas eve.
This is the usual justification given for convincing children that there is a Santa, but the distinction is that parents who convince their children there is a Santa are convincing them of something they know to be untrue.
Parents who put their children through religious education are usually doing so because they believe those religious teachings are true.
I realize this is everyone's cue to launch into an explanation of how religious people are actually lying to themselves first, and their children second, and so on, but the fact is that no parent who teaches their child to believe in Santa actually believes in Santa on any level.
Santa is also, as Dip Flash pointed out above, not a religious character, but a secular character that our culture uses to buffer uncomfortable feelings about turning a spiritual holiday into a commercial one.
Therefore, on principle, I would discourage the idea that the OP should just go along with this custom because of some false equivalence between religious tolerance and secular cultural tradition.
And like raztaj, I agree that the whole Santa Claus indoctrination thing is weird and creepy. Even further, from a religious point of view, I not only do not like the idea of intentionally lying to children, I also do not like the idea that presents are a reward for good behaviour, especially since some children have clearly absorbed that idea and are making inferences about other kids' goodness or badness by the number of presents they get. That's a perversion of the just world hypothesis, and/or a perversion of "prosperity gospel", which is itself a perversion.
OP, I'm sorry your kid is upset by this, but I really don't think the truth will hurt her in the long run. There is no Santa Claus and belief or unbelief in Santa Claus won't change anything because it's you that are buying her presents with money that you earned by working for it.
So all I can suggest is that you try again with the St Nicholas story, which hopefully she will be slightly better able to grasp this year, and also that you combine it with the object lesson of being Santa for other children like her who are poor.
But whatever the answer is, I agree with you, OP: going along with the Santa fiction isn't it.
posted by tel3path at 6:20 AM on December 8, 2014 [13 favorites]
This is the usual justification given for convincing children that there is a Santa, but the distinction is that parents who convince their children there is a Santa are convincing them of something they know to be untrue.
Parents who put their children through religious education are usually doing so because they believe those religious teachings are true.
I realize this is everyone's cue to launch into an explanation of how religious people are actually lying to themselves first, and their children second, and so on, but the fact is that no parent who teaches their child to believe in Santa actually believes in Santa on any level.
Santa is also, as Dip Flash pointed out above, not a religious character, but a secular character that our culture uses to buffer uncomfortable feelings about turning a spiritual holiday into a commercial one.
Therefore, on principle, I would discourage the idea that the OP should just go along with this custom because of some false equivalence between religious tolerance and secular cultural tradition.
And like raztaj, I agree that the whole Santa Claus indoctrination thing is weird and creepy. Even further, from a religious point of view, I not only do not like the idea of intentionally lying to children, I also do not like the idea that presents are a reward for good behaviour, especially since some children have clearly absorbed that idea and are making inferences about other kids' goodness or badness by the number of presents they get. That's a perversion of the just world hypothesis, and/or a perversion of "prosperity gospel", which is itself a perversion.
OP, I'm sorry your kid is upset by this, but I really don't think the truth will hurt her in the long run. There is no Santa Claus and belief or unbelief in Santa Claus won't change anything because it's you that are buying her presents with money that you earned by working for it.
So all I can suggest is that you try again with the St Nicholas story, which hopefully she will be slightly better able to grasp this year, and also that you combine it with the object lesson of being Santa for other children like her who are poor.
But whatever the answer is, I agree with you, OP: going along with the Santa fiction isn't it.
posted by tel3path at 6:20 AM on December 8, 2014 [13 favorites]
Realistically, you only have one year, maybe two, where this is even going to be a thing.
Just play along. For one year. Think of all the things you've done in your life for the sake of appearances, or going along to get along, or to make someone happy even if you didn't agree with them. This is one of those things, but this time it's for your daughter. Who you presumably love.
I'm going to go against the grain and say it's not about the presents. If it were about the presents, this wouldn't be an issue, since from your question it sounds like she already gets Christmas presents, and she will probably continue to get them in a year or two when she no longer believes in Santa.
For me, it was always about the magic. The optimism. The excitement of believing in something impossible. It's really sad to think about every other kid having access to the Santa magic, but you don't. And not because your family believes something different, or has its own special magic on a different holiday with a different meaning. But because you're just flat out telling her "Hey, kid, don't get real excited about life or anything because it's hastily purchased gift cards all the way down..." Which is shitty. Let her have a sense of wonder. Even if you transition that sense of wonder into something a little more science-based in a few years when the Santa thing wears off.
One thing you could do, since you've already established all the family Christmas traditions and stuck to a hard Santa Is A Lie line, is to come up with a new little ritual for whatever you're comfortable with in terms of the Santa thing. Maybe Santa does the stocking. Maybe Santa leaves her one already-unwrapped toy at the foot of her bed on Christmas morning. Maybe Santa leaves a toy in some hidden spot only she ever sees, like in her sock drawer. Maybe Santa leaves her a note. This way you maximize the magic/surprise angle that makes the Santa folklore really exciting, while minimizing the amount of presents you have to buy, and also not feeling like there's some weird "We Have Always Been At War With EastAsia" retconning thing happening. (Which, to me, is the weirdest most "lie" like aspect of all this -- the part where you have to make room for Santa where Santa had previously not existed.)
posted by Sara C. at 6:30 AM on December 8, 2014 [11 favorites]
Just play along. For one year. Think of all the things you've done in your life for the sake of appearances, or going along to get along, or to make someone happy even if you didn't agree with them. This is one of those things, but this time it's for your daughter. Who you presumably love.
I'm going to go against the grain and say it's not about the presents. If it were about the presents, this wouldn't be an issue, since from your question it sounds like she already gets Christmas presents, and she will probably continue to get them in a year or two when she no longer believes in Santa.
For me, it was always about the magic. The optimism. The excitement of believing in something impossible. It's really sad to think about every other kid having access to the Santa magic, but you don't. And not because your family believes something different, or has its own special magic on a different holiday with a different meaning. But because you're just flat out telling her "Hey, kid, don't get real excited about life or anything because it's hastily purchased gift cards all the way down..." Which is shitty. Let her have a sense of wonder. Even if you transition that sense of wonder into something a little more science-based in a few years when the Santa thing wears off.
One thing you could do, since you've already established all the family Christmas traditions and stuck to a hard Santa Is A Lie line, is to come up with a new little ritual for whatever you're comfortable with in terms of the Santa thing. Maybe Santa does the stocking. Maybe Santa leaves her one already-unwrapped toy at the foot of her bed on Christmas morning. Maybe Santa leaves a toy in some hidden spot only she ever sees, like in her sock drawer. Maybe Santa leaves her a note. This way you maximize the magic/surprise angle that makes the Santa folklore really exciting, while minimizing the amount of presents you have to buy, and also not feeling like there's some weird "We Have Always Been At War With EastAsia" retconning thing happening. (Which, to me, is the weirdest most "lie" like aspect of all this -- the part where you have to make room for Santa where Santa had previously not existed.)
posted by Sara C. at 6:30 AM on December 8, 2014 [11 favorites]
Ah, hell. If she's going to bed crying over this shit, you don't have a choice. Santa is a fun participatory fiction that you can allow your kid to enjoy along with all her friends or you can spoil for her. I would wait until she got older before I got all Gradgrind on her. Her sadness trumps your bold stand on anti-Santa principles. Other kids will spoil it for her soon enough.
You don't have to change the type of presents you'll get her. You just need to give Santa some of the credit for a couple of years until she figures it out on her own.
Now, if someone tries to get all serious Jesus on her, you can quash that shit without any remorse. Jesus fucks people up for a lifetime. But Santa is part of a fun childhood game that we all give up when we get just a little older than she is now. There are no wars between the pro- and anti-Santa factions.
posted by pracowity at 6:42 AM on December 8, 2014 [11 favorites]
You don't have to change the type of presents you'll get her. You just need to give Santa some of the credit for a couple of years until she figures it out on her own.
Now, if someone tries to get all serious Jesus on her, you can quash that shit without any remorse. Jesus fucks people up for a lifetime. But Santa is part of a fun childhood game that we all give up when we get just a little older than she is now. There are no wars between the pro- and anti-Santa factions.
posted by pracowity at 6:42 AM on December 8, 2014 [11 favorites]
we buy minimal things, decorate as we want, and spend Christmas with our families
So you guys are doing Festivus against the relentless stream of jingly carols and poinsettia? And she's getting an orange and a lollipop on the 25th, when other kids she knows and sees on TV are getting dozens of prettily wrapped boxes of stuff?
My parents are immigrants* - when we were tiny, they did a Christmas, but it was on the wrong day in the wrong month, and it involved different food from what everyone else was having, and no presents. We felt left out! And were pretty unhappy about both those things, I guess so unhappy that my mom soon relented and started buying trees and gifts etc., as well as doing the other one. Which we loved, because there was no longer a disjuncture between our thing and what everyone else on the planet (seemingly) was doing. We could do our Festivus and still be normal.
(*See how many people are talking about immigration and cultural dislocation? We all want the world to feel cohesive, especially when we're 5.)
What if you got a few presents with no 'from' indicator, and let her decide what it's about? That's what my mom did. "Who's it from?" "It doesn't say, I couldn't tell you."
I never believed in Santa, but I still wanted to put cookies out, because it was a thing people did. Ridiculous (which my brother pointed out, to his amusement), but whatever, kids are basically ridiculous in an amazing way.
(And, not that you should have to concede, but we were just thrilled to share in the specialness everyone else was sharing, which made things special for us. We hugged our mom so hard when we got a tree.)
posted by cotton dress sock at 6:45 AM on December 8, 2014 [5 favorites]
So you guys are doing Festivus against the relentless stream of jingly carols and poinsettia? And she's getting an orange and a lollipop on the 25th, when other kids she knows and sees on TV are getting dozens of prettily wrapped boxes of stuff?
My parents are immigrants* - when we were tiny, they did a Christmas, but it was on the wrong day in the wrong month, and it involved different food from what everyone else was having, and no presents. We felt left out! And were pretty unhappy about both those things, I guess so unhappy that my mom soon relented and started buying trees and gifts etc., as well as doing the other one. Which we loved, because there was no longer a disjuncture between our thing and what everyone else on the planet (seemingly) was doing. We could do our Festivus and still be normal.
(*See how many people are talking about immigration and cultural dislocation? We all want the world to feel cohesive, especially when we're 5.)
What if you got a few presents with no 'from' indicator, and let her decide what it's about? That's what my mom did. "Who's it from?" "It doesn't say, I couldn't tell you."
I never believed in Santa, but I still wanted to put cookies out, because it was a thing people did. Ridiculous (which my brother pointed out, to his amusement), but whatever, kids are basically ridiculous in an amazing way.
(And, not that you should have to concede, but we were just thrilled to share in the specialness everyone else was sharing, which made things special for us. We hugged our mom so hard when we got a tree.)
posted by cotton dress sock at 6:45 AM on December 8, 2014 [5 favorites]
Yes little geek anachronism, there is a Santa Claus.
First, I am not sure you have to lie to her either way. And, I don't think Santa Claus has to be tied to religion. She is 5. She is not dealing in absolutes. I was brought up Jewish. We Jews were a small part of our school. When I asked if Santa was real, my older brother called me a moron and my mother asked me what I thought. We then had a little discussion about it. I recall my mom asking me if I thought the characters in the book she read to me were real. I don't think I got it during that conversation, but there was a base there for when I got older to grok it.
My daughter caught on to the tooth fairy pretty early. She was smart. So smart that I told her this, "I am not sure if the tooth fairy is real or not, but I do know that if you do believe, there will be a note and a $2 bill under your pillow in the morning and if you don't believe, there won't be." She caught on that if she wanted the money and the cute letter from the tooth fairy about what a great girl she had been, she told me that she believed even if she didn't. To this day, with her being in college, I still deny being the TF and she still smiles and says something about believing is part of the magic. She also told her brothers to "Shut up and tell him you believe or no note and no money"
I think at the age of 5 kids understand being different from other kids, but they also don't want to be left out of the good things that different people do.
I cannot advise you what to tell your child or what to let her believe, but my experience with my three children who have no religion. was that there was no harm in letting them believe until the point they were old enough to not believe on their own. As for Santa specifically, we told them that their friends were not wrong, that they had a visit from either Santa or his helper. On Christmas eve, we would put out cookies and milk before they went to bed. In the morning, we would put out fresh cold milk and leave the cookies and be so surprised and happy that Santa left his cookies and milk behind. We would then do the Jewish celebration of Christmas and eat cookies and milk for breakfast. I remember one year I made the milk into milkshake. We made Christmas into a family day where we would toss out convention, eat cookies for breakfast, watch more tv than normal, go for a family walk, etc.
posted by 724A at 7:07 AM on December 8, 2014 [2 favorites]
First, I am not sure you have to lie to her either way. And, I don't think Santa Claus has to be tied to religion. She is 5. She is not dealing in absolutes. I was brought up Jewish. We Jews were a small part of our school. When I asked if Santa was real, my older brother called me a moron and my mother asked me what I thought. We then had a little discussion about it. I recall my mom asking me if I thought the characters in the book she read to me were real. I don't think I got it during that conversation, but there was a base there for when I got older to grok it.
My daughter caught on to the tooth fairy pretty early. She was smart. So smart that I told her this, "I am not sure if the tooth fairy is real or not, but I do know that if you do believe, there will be a note and a $2 bill under your pillow in the morning and if you don't believe, there won't be." She caught on that if she wanted the money and the cute letter from the tooth fairy about what a great girl she had been, she told me that she believed even if she didn't. To this day, with her being in college, I still deny being the TF and she still smiles and says something about believing is part of the magic. She also told her brothers to "Shut up and tell him you believe or no note and no money"
I think at the age of 5 kids understand being different from other kids, but they also don't want to be left out of the good things that different people do.
I cannot advise you what to tell your child or what to let her believe, but my experience with my three children who have no religion. was that there was no harm in letting them believe until the point they were old enough to not believe on their own. As for Santa specifically, we told them that their friends were not wrong, that they had a visit from either Santa or his helper. On Christmas eve, we would put out cookies and milk before they went to bed. In the morning, we would put out fresh cold milk and leave the cookies and be so surprised and happy that Santa left his cookies and milk behind. We would then do the Jewish celebration of Christmas and eat cookies and milk for breakfast. I remember one year I made the milk into milkshake. We made Christmas into a family day where we would toss out convention, eat cookies for breakfast, watch more tv than normal, go for a family walk, etc.
posted by 724A at 7:07 AM on December 8, 2014 [2 favorites]
I'm a-religion and pro-Santa, although we will never use Santa as a threat and I'd smack anyone who did.
I still remember the year I defiantly told my parents I knew that Santa wasn't real.
My parents told me, "Oh, sweetie, of course there isn't one guy in a red suit who flies all over the world and goes down everyone's chimney, but Santa is about celebrating the joy and magic of giving to people you love. Santa is the spirit of Christmas and he's in our hearts."
That was that, and long story short, Santa's continued filling stockings at my house for Christmas ever since. When I hit college age, Santa Junior started leaving stockings for my parents too. And I know Santa's been really happy to have little ones around at Christmastime again. I imagine his reindeer are happy too that there's little ones again to leave them snacks on the front porch.
posted by telepanda at 7:31 AM on December 8, 2014 [14 favorites]
I still remember the year I defiantly told my parents I knew that Santa wasn't real.
My parents told me, "Oh, sweetie, of course there isn't one guy in a red suit who flies all over the world and goes down everyone's chimney, but Santa is about celebrating the joy and magic of giving to people you love. Santa is the spirit of Christmas and he's in our hearts."
That was that, and long story short, Santa's continued filling stockings at my house for Christmas ever since. When I hit college age, Santa Junior started leaving stockings for my parents too. And I know Santa's been really happy to have little ones around at Christmastime again. I imagine his reindeer are happy too that there's little ones again to leave them snacks on the front porch.
posted by telepanda at 7:31 AM on December 8, 2014 [14 favorites]
When my daughter was about five, she asked if Santa was real, and I told her that he was pretend, just like God (we are atheists), but that people have different things they believe in and that's okay. She considered that and said that she believed in Santa, and I told her I didn't but that it was okay if she did. That satisfied her and I don't think she ever felt like she was missing out because she still got lots of presents from her grandparents (who were all good about going along with the idea that the presents came from them and not Santa). The next year she let go of it on her own.
posted by briank at 7:33 AM on December 8, 2014 [4 favorites]
posted by briank at 7:33 AM on December 8, 2014 [4 favorites]
Best answer: When my son (at 6) was having his existential crisis around Santa, I played a technicality card and let him know that there really was a Santa Klaus (Saint Nicholas, Sinterklaas) and say that the important thing is the idea of Santa Claus and that most parents agree that the idea is a good one: give gifts to your loved ones and especially your children because they are so important to you. So really, your parents keep the idea of Santa Claus alive by acting like Santa Claus for a night and isn't that a good thing?
My son latched onto this and is naturally keeping quiet about it because his older sister (who has cognitive delays) still believes deeply in her heart.
Stuart: if you ever read this - you did this wonderful thing for your sister naturally and without any prompting. This was truly heart-warming.
posted by plinth at 7:38 AM on December 8, 2014 [16 favorites]
My son latched onto this and is naturally keeping quiet about it because his older sister (who has cognitive delays) still believes deeply in her heart.
Stuart: if you ever read this - you did this wonderful thing for your sister naturally and without any prompting. This was truly heart-warming.
posted by plinth at 7:38 AM on December 8, 2014 [16 favorites]
Best answer: Hey, you mentioned something explicitly in your question which I don't think a lot of other replies have picked up on, and which (for me) is one of the nastiest parts of the contemporary Santa Myth: the idea that Good Children get toys, and that Bad Children do not. And your kid does not get toys.
So it sounds like more than "missing out" on presents or magic or a ritual that other families do. It sounds like she needs to be reassured that she is a Good Child and worthy of love, validation, presents, etc. like all her friends. That's what's at stake here.
I think creating a Santa ritual of giving and receiving (where she gets to give too) can help with that. I don't have concrete suggestions about how to do this in accordance with your principles--this nasty Literal Santa Extravaganza (which wasn't part of my childhood in the 80s and 90s) makes things so difficult.
Seriously though, there are hundreds of costumed people in malls across the nation, who spend their days reassuring children that they are Good Children and worthy of a present, sent by a powerful person who knows and cares about them. If you're not instructing your kid in your religion, let her get it from somewhere.
posted by Hypatia at 7:39 AM on December 8, 2014 [5 favorites]
So it sounds like more than "missing out" on presents or magic or a ritual that other families do. It sounds like she needs to be reassured that she is a Good Child and worthy of love, validation, presents, etc. like all her friends. That's what's at stake here.
I think creating a Santa ritual of giving and receiving (where she gets to give too) can help with that. I don't have concrete suggestions about how to do this in accordance with your principles--this nasty Literal Santa Extravaganza (which wasn't part of my childhood in the 80s and 90s) makes things so difficult.
Seriously though, there are hundreds of costumed people in malls across the nation, who spend their days reassuring children that they are Good Children and worthy of a present, sent by a powerful person who knows and cares about them. If you're not instructing your kid in your religion, let her get it from somewhere.
posted by Hypatia at 7:39 AM on December 8, 2014 [5 favorites]
Maybe this will help you make peace with it:
Santa exists in your heart, and is enacted by the parents.
(on preview: Telepanda beat me to it. )
posted by St. Peepsburg at 7:39 AM on December 8, 2014 [1 favorite]
Santa exists in your heart, and is enacted by the parents.
(on preview: Telepanda beat me to it. )
posted by St. Peepsburg at 7:39 AM on December 8, 2014 [1 favorite]
Anecdata - in advance, I'll say the TL;DR will be "Childhood is full of upsets, no matter what you do..." but I reserve the right to give you another one at the end.
I was raised in a militantly conservative Christian household where we didn't. do. Christmas. Not authorized by the New Testament, a Catholic-inspired re-vamp of a pagan holiday... those were the cheery stories I was told around the fireplace we didn't have.
Naturally, I was never taught to believe in Santa, and never did. Lest I make them sound even more militant than they were, it's not like we went around passing out tracts at Christmas tree farms, nor do I remember engaging in vigorous de-bunking sessions with playmates. So at least they were spared that - it occurs to me that kids generally figure this out pretty young, and before they are school, at least very far.
It gets worse, or better, depending on how you spin the next thing. My brother and I were both born in December(s). We got birthday presents, and I imagine that given our finances, we got everything we could have gotten regardless. Budgeting and parental flexibility aside, I'm not sure if we would have gotten any presents in December at all to avoid us feeling totally left out if our birthdays hadn't fallen close to Christmas. I just can't say. Dad was pretty hard-core about this.
My wife grew up in more or less the same denomination, but her parents were what I'd call neurotypical about this stuff. She has said over the years that she felt a bit betrayed by her mother's having done the Santa thing to the hilt. When the penny dropped, she did indeed feel she'd been lied to by her parents. Hey, at least she got two sets of presents a year, once in summer when she was born and another consignment from her parents/Santa, or whichever one she was believing in at the time. Said disappointment about Santa (and about her parents) was of short duration. She understood the gag, and that it was what everybody did, and she doesn't keep a Faulkneresque journal about the ordeal. Her parents still give us presents.
So when we had kids, we compared these horror stories and our plan, such as it was, was to never particularly lie to our kids about it. Which is harder than it sounds, and I'll admit we may have played them a bit when they were young, and given truthful answers that were a bit over their heads. We didn't really play the idea of Santa up - we let her parents do it a bit, but we didn't back them up. Maybe, in retrospect, we were a bit Chamberlain-like in this respect, but that makes my Mother-in-Law You-Know-Who-Else, and I don't want to Godwin this thread... bottom line, they figured it out at a very young age, and I think their main problem was when to let their grandmother know they weren't really buying it. Of course to this day (they're well into their teens) we tease them that if they don't believe in Santa, they can't expect him to bring them presents.
This last part sounds more or less like what you're doing, and it turned out pretty well for our kids, probably better for them than our respective childhood experiences did.
As a bit of an epilogue - I remember my cousin introducing me to "professional" wrestling when I was about 10, and I remember the thought process that led me to the conclusion that this was all fake. In those days it wasn't WWF - it was local and regional sweaty guys in tights. One key bit of evidence might have been that the "good guys" were typically assholes when I asked for autographs, and a few of the "bad guys" were very nice about giving me autographs, but more to the point I just eventually - noticed. Noticed that in other athletic realms like football, baseball, etc., no one was wearing masks (okay, there's hockey, and catcher's masks, but you know what I mean), and while I was raised to believe that Auburn was the Enemy*, even they weren't portrayed as being people who would try to literally kill the UA team, nor did they ever seem to throw chairs... I think if you play your cards right, this is what will happen to your kids. They will eventually - notice.
Supplemental TL;DR - I think you're doing fine. Don't overthink it.
*I became an Auburn fan as an adult, and the conversion process is roughly like telling your family you've converted to Islam, or at least become Episcopalian...
posted by randomkeystrike at 7:45 AM on December 8, 2014
I was raised in a militantly conservative Christian household where we didn't. do. Christmas. Not authorized by the New Testament, a Catholic-inspired re-vamp of a pagan holiday... those were the cheery stories I was told around the fireplace we didn't have.
Naturally, I was never taught to believe in Santa, and never did. Lest I make them sound even more militant than they were, it's not like we went around passing out tracts at Christmas tree farms, nor do I remember engaging in vigorous de-bunking sessions with playmates. So at least they were spared that - it occurs to me that kids generally figure this out pretty young, and before they are school, at least very far.
It gets worse, or better, depending on how you spin the next thing. My brother and I were both born in December(s). We got birthday presents, and I imagine that given our finances, we got everything we could have gotten regardless. Budgeting and parental flexibility aside, I'm not sure if we would have gotten any presents in December at all to avoid us feeling totally left out if our birthdays hadn't fallen close to Christmas. I just can't say. Dad was pretty hard-core about this.
My wife grew up in more or less the same denomination, but her parents were what I'd call neurotypical about this stuff. She has said over the years that she felt a bit betrayed by her mother's having done the Santa thing to the hilt. When the penny dropped, she did indeed feel she'd been lied to by her parents. Hey, at least she got two sets of presents a year, once in summer when she was born and another consignment from her parents/Santa, or whichever one she was believing in at the time. Said disappointment about Santa (and about her parents) was of short duration. She understood the gag, and that it was what everybody did, and she doesn't keep a Faulkneresque journal about the ordeal. Her parents still give us presents.
So when we had kids, we compared these horror stories and our plan, such as it was, was to never particularly lie to our kids about it. Which is harder than it sounds, and I'll admit we may have played them a bit when they were young, and given truthful answers that were a bit over their heads. We didn't really play the idea of Santa up - we let her parents do it a bit, but we didn't back them up. Maybe, in retrospect, we were a bit Chamberlain-like in this respect, but that makes my Mother-in-Law You-Know-Who-Else, and I don't want to Godwin this thread... bottom line, they figured it out at a very young age, and I think their main problem was when to let their grandmother know they weren't really buying it. Of course to this day (they're well into their teens) we tease them that if they don't believe in Santa, they can't expect him to bring them presents.
This last part sounds more or less like what you're doing, and it turned out pretty well for our kids, probably better for them than our respective childhood experiences did.
As a bit of an epilogue - I remember my cousin introducing me to "professional" wrestling when I was about 10, and I remember the thought process that led me to the conclusion that this was all fake. In those days it wasn't WWF - it was local and regional sweaty guys in tights. One key bit of evidence might have been that the "good guys" were typically assholes when I asked for autographs, and a few of the "bad guys" were very nice about giving me autographs, but more to the point I just eventually - noticed. Noticed that in other athletic realms like football, baseball, etc., no one was wearing masks (okay, there's hockey, and catcher's masks, but you know what I mean), and while I was raised to believe that Auburn was the Enemy*, even they weren't portrayed as being people who would try to literally kill the UA team, nor did they ever seem to throw chairs... I think if you play your cards right, this is what will happen to your kids. They will eventually - notice.
Supplemental TL;DR - I think you're doing fine. Don't overthink it.
*I became an Auburn fan as an adult, and the conversion process is roughly like telling your family you've converted to Islam, or at least become Episcopalian...
posted by randomkeystrike at 7:45 AM on December 8, 2014
I would approach this from the standpoint of: "Different families celebrate Christmas in lots of fun and wonderful and magical ways." I recall reading a really cool picture book as a kid that discussed the different "Santa" traditions in all different countries (I can't recall the name, sadly, but I'm sure there are many out there!) Maybe write down a list together of everything she LOVES about the Christmas traditions your family has, and then say "You know, you're old enough to start contributing the traditions you might like to add to the list. Would you like to do stockings with your grandparents this year?" And if she says yes, let Grandma and Grandpa get her a stocking from "Santa." I think this would maybe help her appreciate the cool traditions you guys DO have, and also help her feel that she gets some control over holiday traditions as well. Each person in a family might have certain traditions they just LOVE and others they put up with because they are a particular favorite of a family member (ahem, my dad reading the Night Before Christmas out loud every year...he is the only one who loves it, but everyone else is happy to listen because he gets suck a kick out of it). I think this could put it more in the camp of "holiday tradition" rather than "lie"...and help you personally reframe it from "annoying crap I hate" to "celebrating a tradition that may not be 100% my thing but is special to a family member."
I would also perhaps have a separate talk about the Santa "threats." If people say this in front of YOU, I think it's perfectly fine to pointedly say to the adult "We don't use Santa as a threat in our family." If you're discussing it with your daughter later, perhaps say something along the lines of..."You know, there is nothing you could do that would make Christmas not happen. We love you and we're going to be really happy to celebrate as a family and share gifts no matter what."
posted by rainbowbrite at 7:45 AM on December 8, 2014 [5 favorites]
I would also perhaps have a separate talk about the Santa "threats." If people say this in front of YOU, I think it's perfectly fine to pointedly say to the adult "We don't use Santa as a threat in our family." If you're discussing it with your daughter later, perhaps say something along the lines of..."You know, there is nothing you could do that would make Christmas not happen. We love you and we're going to be really happy to celebrate as a family and share gifts no matter what."
posted by rainbowbrite at 7:45 AM on December 8, 2014 [5 favorites]
Oh, gosh, I was fully expecting to have this problem with my kid this year (he's 4). We've neither confirmed nor denied anything up to this point, and he only gets gifts from friends and family. He was terrified of mall Santas.We just left it open to him to ask and discuss.
A couple of weeks ago he told us he thought Santa was "mimaginary", after a few weeks of Santa in heavy-duty play rotation. This past weekend, he was SUPER EXCITED to hug a mall Santa and tell him all his business. He made it very clear to me that the mall Santa was "a funny man in a costume." And then he talked about that Santa all weekend.
Kids are complicated. Belief is complicated.
>What are some awesome things I can tell her about Christmas and Santa even, that are true and help keep some of the specialness she's obviously seeing in Santa, without the lies.
The way we're dealing with our particular variant is to talk about Saint Nicholas. We can act like a dragon or [insert obvious fictional character here], and we can pretend that it really was a dragon who did XYZ to the point where it feels real. We can also act like Saint Nicholas, who was a wonderful real person, and feel like we did those things because we had an example of a kind, giving person to guide us. My son picked out a gift to donate to a needy child his age and we laid some really explicit parallels. Same with gifts for family. I figure he doesn't get most of what I'm trying to say, but it'll be there when he's ready.
We've also been talking a lot about belief lately. I talked about the fact that I don't believe in Santa because I haven't seen him, but that other people do believe and that's okay. If you have a Santa family that isn't going to make a big deal of it, would you be comfortable with them bringing your daughter a small present that was dropped off at their house from Santa? I was in a non-Santa house from a young age and this happened a few times. I saw through it, but I still liked the gifts and appreciated what they were trying to do.
As far as the good kid/bad kid thing; if this is something the teachers are doing, I would talk to them about how upset it's making her. Even if we did Santa to the nines I would be VERY upset with teachers lording MY gifts over as a stick/carrot against any lapse of judgement my child made.
posted by tchemgrrl at 7:58 AM on December 8, 2014 [1 favorite]
A couple of weeks ago he told us he thought Santa was "mimaginary", after a few weeks of Santa in heavy-duty play rotation. This past weekend, he was SUPER EXCITED to hug a mall Santa and tell him all his business. He made it very clear to me that the mall Santa was "a funny man in a costume." And then he talked about that Santa all weekend.
Kids are complicated. Belief is complicated.
>What are some awesome things I can tell her about Christmas and Santa even, that are true and help keep some of the specialness she's obviously seeing in Santa, without the lies.
The way we're dealing with our particular variant is to talk about Saint Nicholas. We can act like a dragon or [insert obvious fictional character here], and we can pretend that it really was a dragon who did XYZ to the point where it feels real. We can also act like Saint Nicholas, who was a wonderful real person, and feel like we did those things because we had an example of a kind, giving person to guide us. My son picked out a gift to donate to a needy child his age and we laid some really explicit parallels. Same with gifts for family. I figure he doesn't get most of what I'm trying to say, but it'll be there when he's ready.
We've also been talking a lot about belief lately. I talked about the fact that I don't believe in Santa because I haven't seen him, but that other people do believe and that's okay. If you have a Santa family that isn't going to make a big deal of it, would you be comfortable with them bringing your daughter a small present that was dropped off at their house from Santa? I was in a non-Santa house from a young age and this happened a few times. I saw through it, but I still liked the gifts and appreciated what they were trying to do.
As far as the good kid/bad kid thing; if this is something the teachers are doing, I would talk to them about how upset it's making her. Even if we did Santa to the nines I would be VERY upset with teachers lording MY gifts over as a stick/carrot against any lapse of judgement my child made.
posted by tchemgrrl at 7:58 AM on December 8, 2014 [1 favorite]
"If you see it in the Sun, it's so."
posted by headnsouth at 8:03 AM on December 8, 2014 [4 favorites]
posted by headnsouth at 8:03 AM on December 8, 2014 [4 favorites]
So, from the answers it's apparent there are two types of people on this subject. The "lies are bad and I would never lie to my kids (and potentially was upset at being lied to as a kid)", and the "Santa is fun magic, I enjoyed the story and playing along as a kid, I'll create the same magic for my kids".
You are clearly from the first group. Your kid is making it very clear they are from the second group.
There are hills I'll throw myself on when it comes to these arguments with kids because I feel they are damaging (blue is for boys, pink is for girls), and I'm not really understanding what you're digging your feet in about here. Your kid really really wants to play Santa, it would make them happy. You have decided their happiness comes at a cost you won't bear. ...what is that cost? Do you think your kid is going to grow up angry at you for the lie? Because it sounds like it's far more likely they're going to be angry about the refusal to play.
If you went to DisneyWorld, would you insist your kid understand that it's a person in a suit and not actually Mickey? Or is there something particular about Santa?
This sounds more a control fight you're having with your in-laws and society at large, and it looks like your kid has chosen the other side.
posted by Dynex at 8:51 AM on December 8, 2014 [18 favorites]
You are clearly from the first group. Your kid is making it very clear they are from the second group.
There are hills I'll throw myself on when it comes to these arguments with kids because I feel they are damaging (blue is for boys, pink is for girls), and I'm not really understanding what you're digging your feet in about here. Your kid really really wants to play Santa, it would make them happy. You have decided their happiness comes at a cost you won't bear. ...what is that cost? Do you think your kid is going to grow up angry at you for the lie? Because it sounds like it's far more likely they're going to be angry about the refusal to play.
If you went to DisneyWorld, would you insist your kid understand that it's a person in a suit and not actually Mickey? Or is there something particular about Santa?
This sounds more a control fight you're having with your in-laws and society at large, and it looks like your kid has chosen the other side.
posted by Dynex at 8:51 AM on December 8, 2014 [18 favorites]
If you decide to weave your own family mythology about Christmas, you may appreciate the "Minstrel Krampus" episode of American Dad! (an animated series targeted at adults, in case you're unfamiliar with it) which aired last year, in which the true story of Christmas is that Santa is actually the bad guy: a greedy megalomaniac in league with toy companies to exploit children and their parents, encouraging a damagingly lax and and laissez-faire lifestyle amongst today's youth. It's Krampus (voiced by Danny Glover) who is the truly benevolent figure, spreading the real gift of tough love to misbehaving children to set them back on the right path and steer them away from a dissipated licentiousness in life that can only end badly.
posted by XMLicious at 8:52 AM on December 8, 2014 [1 favorite]
posted by XMLicious at 8:52 AM on December 8, 2014 [1 favorite]
If you went to DisneyWorld, would you insist your kid understand that it's a person in a suit and not actually Mickey? Or is there something particular about Santa?
I think there actually is something particular about Santa.
Of course I wouldn't take a kid to DisneyWorld and listen to a child getting all excited about meeting Mickey only to say "kid, you didn't meet Mickey. There's no such thing as a giant bipedal talking mouse. That's just a guy in a costume on minimum wage, in terrible working conditions. Wipe that smile off your face. Also, that t-shirt I just bought you was made in Haiti by a child just like you, making 3 cents a day. Check your privilege." Call me morally decadent, I just think there's a time and a place for everything.
However, I also wouldn't actively try to convince the kid that the guy in the costume really was Mickey. A young kid won't find that the distinction is worth making, anyway.
But if they actually asked me if that was the real Mickey, I'd say Mickey is a fictional character, and that was an actor who was playing the role of Mickey. I come from a theatrical family so the idea of something being staged and not real doesn't make it any less magical for me, as long as it's not being staged for the purposes of deception. Like reality TV. Or Santa.
I certainly wouldn't go out of my way to convince the kid that no, no, that is the bona fide Mickey Mouse and none other. To me, that would be more weird than just admitting that some characters are fictional and are played by actors.
posted by tel3path at 9:34 AM on December 8, 2014 [2 favorites]
I think there actually is something particular about Santa.
Of course I wouldn't take a kid to DisneyWorld and listen to a child getting all excited about meeting Mickey only to say "kid, you didn't meet Mickey. There's no such thing as a giant bipedal talking mouse. That's just a guy in a costume on minimum wage, in terrible working conditions. Wipe that smile off your face. Also, that t-shirt I just bought you was made in Haiti by a child just like you, making 3 cents a day. Check your privilege." Call me morally decadent, I just think there's a time and a place for everything.
However, I also wouldn't actively try to convince the kid that the guy in the costume really was Mickey. A young kid won't find that the distinction is worth making, anyway.
But if they actually asked me if that was the real Mickey, I'd say Mickey is a fictional character, and that was an actor who was playing the role of Mickey. I come from a theatrical family so the idea of something being staged and not real doesn't make it any less magical for me, as long as it's not being staged for the purposes of deception. Like reality TV. Or Santa.
I certainly wouldn't go out of my way to convince the kid that no, no, that is the bona fide Mickey Mouse and none other. To me, that would be more weird than just admitting that some characters are fictional and are played by actors.
posted by tel3path at 9:34 AM on December 8, 2014 [2 favorites]
Everyone knows the Haunted House is a set up at Halloween, but people still go to indulge in teh fantasy and get a good scare. IF she wants to have Santa as part of her holiday fantasy, let her.
Also from a kid perspective, I knew around thath time that Santa wasn't real, but I felt admitting it meant the whole holiday magic was over and I would get no presents and I wouldn't get to stay home from school, because Santa was so intwined with the holiday that if he was gone, the whole thing was gone. I lied to my parents about believing until I was 8 or so and felt comfortable that the whole holiday wouldn't go away if I came out as a non believer in Santa.
And most of the fantasy I enjoyed was seeing the house on Christmas morning. I think my parents were a bit next level withteh fantasy indulgence, but it was cool to come downstairs and see cookie crumbs on a plate and some chewed celery and carrots (from the reindeer), read the letter he left (NEVER in my parent's handwriting, always Santa's writing), see the footprints outside and occasionally reindeeor poop (repurposed dog poop in the yard) and sometimes santa was clumsy and would drop a present on the porch roof or some challenging place where we had to figure out how to get it. HAve some fun in your life.
posted by WeekendJen at 10:08 AM on December 8, 2014 [6 favorites]
Also from a kid perspective, I knew around thath time that Santa wasn't real, but I felt admitting it meant the whole holiday magic was over and I would get no presents and I wouldn't get to stay home from school, because Santa was so intwined with the holiday that if he was gone, the whole thing was gone. I lied to my parents about believing until I was 8 or so and felt comfortable that the whole holiday wouldn't go away if I came out as a non believer in Santa.
And most of the fantasy I enjoyed was seeing the house on Christmas morning. I think my parents were a bit next level withteh fantasy indulgence, but it was cool to come downstairs and see cookie crumbs on a plate and some chewed celery and carrots (from the reindeer), read the letter he left (NEVER in my parent's handwriting, always Santa's writing), see the footprints outside and occasionally reindeeor poop (repurposed dog poop in the yard) and sometimes santa was clumsy and would drop a present on the porch roof or some challenging place where we had to figure out how to get it. HAve some fun in your life.
posted by WeekendJen at 10:08 AM on December 8, 2014 [6 favorites]
I've only read about half the comments here, but a thought occurs to me:
What do families who are Jewish/Muslim/insert-non-Christian-religion-here, who do not celebrate Christmas tell their children if they are raising children in the US, Canada, or some other majority-Christian nation?
Presumably you could adapt their methods (somehow) to your sort-of-Christian household. Or, tell her about other religions that don't celebrate Christmas at all. I didn't find out about other religions until I was in second grade and went to a private school (I had previously gone to a Catholic school) -- my new school had a Hannukkah display next to the Christmas display, and I had to ask my teacher what that was all about. I don't explicitly remember making the "so, you mean Jewish kids don't get visited by Santa?" connection even though my family was very pro-Santa.
(I also remember getting dreidels and wrapped chocolate coins from "Santa" as a kid, even though my family is Catholic. My parents didn't tell me those were Jewish things -- I just thought it was a fun little spinny top meant to teach a foreign alphabet -- I thought the four sides read "A B C D" in a foreign language I couldn't then identify -- and some tasty candy that looked like coins which was neat. Then again, I grew up on Long Island, which undeniably has a pretty large Jewish population.)
I like the suggestions above about "if you want to play along, you'll get gifts from 'Santa,'" though I'm not sure your daughter will buy that one -- or relating it to a cartoon character.
Best of luck.
posted by tckma at 10:19 AM on December 8, 2014
What do families who are Jewish/Muslim/insert-non-Christian-religion-here, who do not celebrate Christmas tell their children if they are raising children in the US, Canada, or some other majority-Christian nation?
Presumably you could adapt their methods (somehow) to your sort-of-Christian household. Or, tell her about other religions that don't celebrate Christmas at all. I didn't find out about other religions until I was in second grade and went to a private school (I had previously gone to a Catholic school) -- my new school had a Hannukkah display next to the Christmas display, and I had to ask my teacher what that was all about. I don't explicitly remember making the "so, you mean Jewish kids don't get visited by Santa?" connection even though my family was very pro-Santa.
(I also remember getting dreidels and wrapped chocolate coins from "Santa" as a kid, even though my family is Catholic. My parents didn't tell me those were Jewish things -- I just thought it was a fun little spinny top meant to teach a foreign alphabet -- I thought the four sides read "A B C D" in a foreign language I couldn't then identify -- and some tasty candy that looked like coins which was neat. Then again, I grew up on Long Island, which undeniably has a pretty large Jewish population.)
I like the suggestions above about "if you want to play along, you'll get gifts from 'Santa,'" though I'm not sure your daughter will buy that one -- or relating it to a cartoon character.
Best of luck.
posted by tckma at 10:19 AM on December 8, 2014
I believed wholeheartedly in Santa as a child and my parents went right along with it. When I figured out he wasn't real, it wasn't some earth-shattering traumatic realization and I didn't feel "lied to" in anyway. I just saw it as my parents trying to make the holidays a little more magical and fun for me (plus I think it made things more fun to them). I was a really imaginative kid and having my parents insist all my peers were wrong and he wasn't real would have been a lot more disappointing.
Personally I don't see the harm in indulging it for now, as long as it's just a fun little addition to the holiday and you're not doing the whole "be good or else!" thing. Most kids outgrow it on their own and think Santa is dumb in a few years anyway. Or taking the aforementioned route of just telling her it's a game or story some people like to tell.
I feel like you're kind of making too much of it and need to pick your battles - you're not lying about her being adopted or something, it's just Santa.
posted by Kimmalah at 10:31 AM on December 8, 2014
Personally I don't see the harm in indulging it for now, as long as it's just a fun little addition to the holiday and you're not doing the whole "be good or else!" thing. Most kids outgrow it on their own and think Santa is dumb in a few years anyway. Or taking the aforementioned route of just telling her it's a game or story some people like to tell.
I feel like you're kind of making too much of it and need to pick your battles - you're not lying about her being adopted or something, it's just Santa.
posted by Kimmalah at 10:31 AM on December 8, 2014
This sounds more a control fight you're having with your in-laws and society at large, and it looks like your kid has chosen the other side.
Well, yes, but children who are Jewish or Muslim or non-Christian generally don't have their kids go through Santa Claus, plenty of parents don't take their kids skiing, my parents didn't take us camping, etc.
I think there is definitely a balance that needs to be made between helping children learn to navigate society in a culturally literate way and parents prerogative to take part or not take part in cultural rituals they have no interest in. And part of growing up is a valuable lesson in children learning to accept that their parents do things differently than others.
I like the idea of posing Santa as a game and inviting your child that the parents are willing to play the game if it makes the child happy. But geek anachronism's child is lucky that the parents might be willing to play along to make the child happy until the child outgrows it rather than retain some sort of bizarro attachment to keep trying to convince the child that santa is showing up.
posted by deanc at 11:08 AM on December 8, 2014 [1 favorite]
Well, yes, but children who are Jewish or Muslim or non-Christian generally don't have their kids go through Santa Claus, plenty of parents don't take their kids skiing, my parents didn't take us camping, etc.
I think there is definitely a balance that needs to be made between helping children learn to navigate society in a culturally literate way and parents prerogative to take part or not take part in cultural rituals they have no interest in. And part of growing up is a valuable lesson in children learning to accept that their parents do things differently than others.
I like the idea of posing Santa as a game and inviting your child that the parents are willing to play the game if it makes the child happy. But geek anachronism's child is lucky that the parents might be willing to play along to make the child happy until the child outgrows it rather than retain some sort of bizarro attachment to keep trying to convince the child that santa is showing up.
posted by deanc at 11:08 AM on December 8, 2014 [1 favorite]
We never did Santa growing up, and I don't remember being bothered by it, because while my parents didn't apologize for the lack of Santa in our lives, they made it fun in other ways. One of my favorite Christmas memories is building forts with my brother using the Christmas gifts my parents purposely wrapped early and left at our disposal exactly for this purpose. No one whose gifts were hidden away until Christmas Eve for Santa to "deliver" got to do that. So make sure she gets to have some fun with Christmas, whatever that would look like for her.
posted by fairfax at 11:12 AM on December 8, 2014 [1 favorite]
posted by fairfax at 11:12 AM on December 8, 2014 [1 favorite]
Dynex
So, from the answers it's apparent there are two types of people on this subject. The "lies are bad and I would never lie to my kids (and potentially was upset at being lied to as a kid)", and the "Santa is fun magic, I enjoyed the story and playing along as a kid, I'll create the same magic for my kids".
You're missing the third type of people, those who say "Santa is bad because the myth teaches that the reason poor children get fewer presents because they are worse people."
I don't have a problem with lying to children, and I don't have a problem with children believing in magic. I do have a problem with Santa.
posted by yeolcoatl at 1:00 PM on December 8, 2014 [7 favorites]
So, from the answers it's apparent there are two types of people on this subject. The "lies are bad and I would never lie to my kids (and potentially was upset at being lied to as a kid)", and the "Santa is fun magic, I enjoyed the story and playing along as a kid, I'll create the same magic for my kids".
You're missing the third type of people, those who say "Santa is bad because the myth teaches that the reason poor children get fewer presents because they are worse people."
I don't have a problem with lying to children, and I don't have a problem with children believing in magic. I do have a problem with Santa.
posted by yeolcoatl at 1:00 PM on December 8, 2014 [7 favorites]
Response by poster: Update: she was able to articulate a little better this morning (she's inherited my tired = tears biochemistry) and her issue was the clashing of beliefs and the present thing. So, to quote, "why do some people say Santa is real when he isn't?". So I explained that it's a game people play, and we talked about who plays it in our family and how Nanny still puts gifts from Santa under the tree for me, and so on. And we talked about Saint Nicholas a bit more, and from there about gifts for poor children and poor families, and about Jesus a little. Which all lead to the 'how do you believe in God?' question, and 'how do kids believe in God?' as well. Just for fun.
Thank you to those of you who did come up with some ways of talking about it I hadn't thought of, and experiences of your own.
To address a few things though - I'm Australian so the faith aspect rarely comes up in practice. I don't go to church for example. But it has come up in this conversation in that I've gotten the 'you believe in some bearded guy in the sky, so why can't she?' and I wanted to make it clear that making the holiday about Jesus wasn't an option (literally I am the only faithful in the house at Christmastime), but similarly a fully secular 'woo presents' is unwelcome (because I am faithful, if not overt). Santa is explicitly unlinked from religion in our families, and linked much more strongly to really rampant consumerist secular traditions.
I've also gotten more than enough advice on how I'm ruining her imagination, ruining the magic, and so on. Pointers on how I am, and why I should just acquiesce to popular demand, are not actually helpful. It was explicitly why I wrote "I'm not lying to her about Santa". But please, rest assured, she gets more than an orange and a lollipop, and lectures about the decadence of modern humanity and the decline of morality. We do a lot of Christmassy stuff but it seems that a reluctance to lie about Santa, and a reluctance to go overboard with gifts, are enough to mark one as a Grinch of the highest order*. I was attempting to sidestep those accusations by focusing closely on the Santa thing, but I see I probably should have explained more. And yes, I am still smarting a little from various arguments and slights about it from our families, and that does play into my desire to assuage some of my daughter's upset.
She did just tell me fairies are real though, so the desire to believe (and fit in) is very strong.
*Which I totally bought into right up until several friends thought I was being funny when I called myself a Grinch since in their eyes I am very Christmassy, with the cookies and the cards and DIY christmas tree ad the advent and so on.
posted by geek anachronism at 11:19 PM on December 8, 2014 [4 favorites]
Thank you to those of you who did come up with some ways of talking about it I hadn't thought of, and experiences of your own.
To address a few things though - I'm Australian so the faith aspect rarely comes up in practice. I don't go to church for example. But it has come up in this conversation in that I've gotten the 'you believe in some bearded guy in the sky, so why can't she?' and I wanted to make it clear that making the holiday about Jesus wasn't an option (literally I am the only faithful in the house at Christmastime), but similarly a fully secular 'woo presents' is unwelcome (because I am faithful, if not overt). Santa is explicitly unlinked from religion in our families, and linked much more strongly to really rampant consumerist secular traditions.
I've also gotten more than enough advice on how I'm ruining her imagination, ruining the magic, and so on. Pointers on how I am, and why I should just acquiesce to popular demand, are not actually helpful. It was explicitly why I wrote "I'm not lying to her about Santa". But please, rest assured, she gets more than an orange and a lollipop, and lectures about the decadence of modern humanity and the decline of morality. We do a lot of Christmassy stuff but it seems that a reluctance to lie about Santa, and a reluctance to go overboard with gifts, are enough to mark one as a Grinch of the highest order*. I was attempting to sidestep those accusations by focusing closely on the Santa thing, but I see I probably should have explained more. And yes, I am still smarting a little from various arguments and slights about it from our families, and that does play into my desire to assuage some of my daughter's upset.
She did just tell me fairies are real though, so the desire to believe (and fit in) is very strong.
*Which I totally bought into right up until several friends thought I was being funny when I called myself a Grinch since in their eyes I am very Christmassy, with the cookies and the cards and DIY christmas tree ad the advent and so on.
posted by geek anachronism at 11:19 PM on December 8, 2014 [4 favorites]
Best answer: The way I explained the deceit to my kids-- it is absolutely wonderful to get extravagant presents and eat candy for breakfast... Once in a while. Little kids LOVE those things and wish they could happen every day! Parents LOVE to give their kids those experiences--but also know that, for lots of reasons, it's really not possible to do that every day. So, on a couple of holidays (Christmas, Easter) there are special occasions set aside where a parent can do those wonderful, fun, special things for their kids. The parents love to do it, the kids love to enjoy it--and we don't have to fight about "why can't we have chocolate for breakfast??" Every other morning of the year.
I think this hits it in kind of the right spot. Yes, we weren't being truthful, not because we wanted to dupe you, but because we were trying to Do The Right Thing all around.
My kids are old enough now to know the real deal about Santa. Santa still brings presents for all of us. We still eat candy canes for breakfast on Dec 25. It's lovely.
posted by Sublimity at 4:34 AM on December 9, 2014 [4 favorites]
I think this hits it in kind of the right spot. Yes, we weren't being truthful, not because we wanted to dupe you, but because we were trying to Do The Right Thing all around.
My kids are old enough now to know the real deal about Santa. Santa still brings presents for all of us. We still eat candy canes for breakfast on Dec 25. It's lovely.
posted by Sublimity at 4:34 AM on December 9, 2014 [4 favorites]
Best answer: My kids were super proud they worked it out for themselves (wrapping paper the same - sigh) and I was super relieved. I wanted them to have the magic but I hated lying, and lying it was. When I'd taught them about the solar system using beach balls and a torch, making up plausible shit about Santa's faster than light travel was wrong.
There were a bunch of things I didn't do with my kids, that other families did with theirs. Harmless soap operas, for example, like Home & Away, I forbid completely. On the other hand, I told them they could swear as much as they liked, but to choose carefully where they did it, for the sake of easily shocked strangers and because I wasn't going to rescue them if they got into trouble.
It is fine to have cultural traditions out of step with your community. As a fellow Australian,you'll appreciate the significance that my children were never exposed to spectator sport like footy or cricket, live or on TV. We just weren't interested. Over time, they used those differences to create an understanding of our family identity. This is what the b33js do. And they are fine with it.
I made other, no doubt both trivial and nail biting decisions while I was raising them, where their experiences differed from this of their peers. At the time, sometimes, they were bitter, but I believe as a parent, if you have a (hopefully rational) reason for why you're doing what you're doing, you should stick to your guns, even whike being sympathetic within reason. Otherwise, you may find that your little monster will discover the ultimate parental blackmail too.
So this post has turned out to be less "try using these strategies" (I think the ones you have are fine) or "cheat your principles and own deeply held beliefs this way for MY reasons" (nah, that is a sucky path to travel) and more support both for your personal point of view and for your patenting technique.
After all, we know Santa isn't unmitigated good (encouraging greed, discriminating against poor and culturally diverse children, endless saccharin Christmas carols) and where would Maycomb County have been if Atticus had stuck with his society's cultural traditions (though of course Santa is not as bad as racism, and racism doesn't have any good bits to it I can think of - forgive the inappropriate analogy - it's 3am on insomnia night)?
posted by b33j at 8:56 AM on December 9, 2014
There were a bunch of things I didn't do with my kids, that other families did with theirs. Harmless soap operas, for example, like Home & Away, I forbid completely. On the other hand, I told them they could swear as much as they liked, but to choose carefully where they did it, for the sake of easily shocked strangers and because I wasn't going to rescue them if they got into trouble.
It is fine to have cultural traditions out of step with your community. As a fellow Australian,you'll appreciate the significance that my children were never exposed to spectator sport like footy or cricket, live or on TV. We just weren't interested. Over time, they used those differences to create an understanding of our family identity. This is what the b33js do. And they are fine with it.
I made other, no doubt both trivial and nail biting decisions while I was raising them, where their experiences differed from this of their peers. At the time, sometimes, they were bitter, but I believe as a parent, if you have a (hopefully rational) reason for why you're doing what you're doing, you should stick to your guns, even whike being sympathetic within reason. Otherwise, you may find that your little monster will discover the ultimate parental blackmail too.
So this post has turned out to be less "try using these strategies" (I think the ones you have are fine) or "cheat your principles and own deeply held beliefs this way for MY reasons" (nah, that is a sucky path to travel) and more support both for your personal point of view and for your patenting technique.
After all, we know Santa isn't unmitigated good (encouraging greed, discriminating against poor and culturally diverse children, endless saccharin Christmas carols) and where would Maycomb County have been if Atticus had stuck with his society's cultural traditions (though of course Santa is not as bad as racism, and racism doesn't have any good bits to it I can think of - forgive the inappropriate analogy - it's 3am on insomnia night)?
posted by b33j at 8:56 AM on December 9, 2014
Best answer: She did just tell me fairies are real though, so the desire to believe (and fit in) is very strong.
Fairies are real.
posted by 724A at 9:27 AM on December 9, 2014 [2 favorites]
Fairies are real.
posted by 724A at 9:27 AM on December 9, 2014 [2 favorites]
So, I grew up in a family with a similar faith-to-secularism ratio that you seem to have, in that my parents take our Episcopalian faith pretty seriously, and during my childhood it was a very real source of restraint during the holiday season. Because of that, my parents definitely minimized the Santa thing, and a lot of our family holiday traditions were more Advent based and not consumerist in nature. We didn't put up our Christmas tree on Thanksgiving. We didn't shop on Black Friday. We didn't open presents on Christmas Eve. Santa brought three presents, and that was the number of presents he brought.
The way my parents handled this was that they told us "this is what we do in our family," and then changed the subject/moved on. As I said in my original response, a big way that they made this not a big deal is that they replaced the things we didn't do with other fun things that we did do. For everything my parents thought was crass and commercialist about Christmas, we had a totally different tradition that was meaningful for us. This kept the magic in Christmas and also helped us not feel like the left out deprived kids who didn't ever get to do anything fun because of our dumb iconoclastic parents and their weird ideas about how holidays ought to be celebrated.
You're now making it out that your daughter doesn't want to do the Santa thing at all, so it's hard to tell at this point what your question ever actually was. But I would say, going forward, that if you intend to celebrate major holidays differently from how people in your community celebrate those same holidays, it's best to have a firm plan of action for what you will do instead. And get your kid excited about those traditions and on board with The Geek Anachronism Way, rather than worrying about her place in the pecking order as a rogue outsider.
posted by Sara C. at 9:57 AM on December 9, 2014 [1 favorite]
The way my parents handled this was that they told us "this is what we do in our family," and then changed the subject/moved on. As I said in my original response, a big way that they made this not a big deal is that they replaced the things we didn't do with other fun things that we did do. For everything my parents thought was crass and commercialist about Christmas, we had a totally different tradition that was meaningful for us. This kept the magic in Christmas and also helped us not feel like the left out deprived kids who didn't ever get to do anything fun because of our dumb iconoclastic parents and their weird ideas about how holidays ought to be celebrated.
You're now making it out that your daughter doesn't want to do the Santa thing at all, so it's hard to tell at this point what your question ever actually was. But I would say, going forward, that if you intend to celebrate major holidays differently from how people in your community celebrate those same holidays, it's best to have a firm plan of action for what you will do instead. And get your kid excited about those traditions and on board with The Geek Anachronism Way, rather than worrying about her place in the pecking order as a rogue outsider.
posted by Sara C. at 9:57 AM on December 9, 2014 [1 favorite]
My favorite essay for this: "Santa is a game people play": "From the time the girls were young, we’ve told them that “Santa Claus” is a game that everyone around the world plays together. You play the game by pretending that he’s real. You lose the game if you break character and talk about him not being real. And you definitely don’t talk about Santa not being real at school (mainly said so they aren’t the ones who break the news to younger kids on the playground)."
posted by gretchin at 2:21 PM on December 9, 2014 [6 favorites]
posted by gretchin at 2:21 PM on December 9, 2014 [6 favorites]
Carolyn Hax covered this in an online chat recently.
In the highly unlikely event that anyone asks me about Santa, I'm going to say that Santa Claus is a giant conspiracy among parents and mall Santas to keep the work of St. Nicholas alive after his death. Which is pretty much what everyone else is saying here too, apparently!
posted by jenfullmoon at 8:11 PM on December 9, 2014
In the highly unlikely event that anyone asks me about Santa, I'm going to say that Santa Claus is a giant conspiracy among parents and mall Santas to keep the work of St. Nicholas alive after his death. Which is pretty much what everyone else is saying here too, apparently!
posted by jenfullmoon at 8:11 PM on December 9, 2014
Sounds like you handled it very well.
You might be interested in this article about how kids react to learning the truth about Santa.
Children were just as likely to be glad as to be sad. And it didn't matter whether they were told by an adult, or realized it on their own. Parents were the ones who were more likely to be sad than glad.
posted by John Cohen at 8:43 AM on December 21, 2014
You might be interested in this article about how kids react to learning the truth about Santa.
Children were just as likely to be glad as to be sad. And it didn't matter whether they were told by an adult, or realized it on their own. Parents were the ones who were more likely to be sad than glad.
posted by John Cohen at 8:43 AM on December 21, 2014
Response by poster: So, update:
She likes to still pretend the Santa story is real, with her own little nod to the story, and was very much into the advent we did. Everyone at our family gatherings were still weird about it - exacerbated by my own epic misunderstanding of a certain familial tradition of my partner's that's all about Santa - and random people still ask, incessantly, what she got from Santa, was she a good girl and got lots of things, and so on. Which she answers affirmatively, with a grin. My partner is of the opinion that the tooth fairy is a slightly different set of issues to santa - there's no 'bad kids get nothing' to contend with - but that's a while away.
posted by geek anachronism at 1:59 AM on January 8, 2015
She likes to still pretend the Santa story is real, with her own little nod to the story, and was very much into the advent we did. Everyone at our family gatherings were still weird about it - exacerbated by my own epic misunderstanding of a certain familial tradition of my partner's that's all about Santa - and random people still ask, incessantly, what she got from Santa, was she a good girl and got lots of things, and so on. Which she answers affirmatively, with a grin. My partner is of the opinion that the tooth fairy is a slightly different set of issues to santa - there's no 'bad kids get nothing' to contend with - but that's a while away.
posted by geek anachronism at 1:59 AM on January 8, 2015
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Kids also kind of know/not know about Santa at the same time. They "believe" in a way they believe their pretend lives.
posted by third rail at 4:17 AM on December 8, 2014 [88 favorites]