Is a once/weekly houseguest too much if you're rarely out of the house?
September 22, 2014 3:18 AM Subscribe
So my housemate and I are having a bit of a disagreement about houseguests, and I'd like a reality check and some advice on the situation.
Katie and I have been living together for about a year; we're both moderately busy grad students, though she's at the end of her degree and I'm just starting, so things are a bit more tense for her. Katie has had a few relationships over the time we've lived together, with around about the usual amount of canoodling / overnight visitors, and also will take the occasional trip (once/month or so?) over a weekend to get out of the house. I've been pretty preoccupied with the fallout from a terrible relationship, so haven't been seeing anyone, but in the last few weeks I've started spending time with a woman, Lauren. She's slept over at our place about once a week during this period.
This evening Katie called me into the living room and said that it was unreasonable for me to have a houseguest over once a week when I rarely if ever leave the house for an extended period of time - I think I've been away for the weekend or a little longer about six or seven times since we moved in together. She proposed that I spend more time at Lauren's place, which I certainly intend to do, but everything at my place is much nicer than at hers - I have an ensuite, a nice television we can watch movies on, a large bed, etc etc etc. I said that I could eventually see maybe a 70/30 division between my place / Lauren's place, but Katie said that wasn't enough, and that she wanted at least parity.
I personally don't think a weekly houseguest is much of an imposition - Lauren and I tend to stay in my room, and we don't loudly fuck or watch films past like eight or nine at night or whatever. Were the situation to be reversed, I genuinely wouldn't mind, and indeed, I've always found it interesting and lively meeting the people that Katie is seeing and having a chat with them etcetera. I don't really get anything out of her trips away - I tend to spend most of my time in my room either way. So I guess the problem is that I feel Katie's statement of her preferences is somewhat unreasonable, and I feel like I'm being forced to compromise in a way that feels unfair. Is this just a failure of empathy on my part? As a housemate, are you obliged to balance out the time a houseguest spends over with an equal time spent away?
Katie and I have been living together for about a year; we're both moderately busy grad students, though she's at the end of her degree and I'm just starting, so things are a bit more tense for her. Katie has had a few relationships over the time we've lived together, with around about the usual amount of canoodling / overnight visitors, and also will take the occasional trip (once/month or so?) over a weekend to get out of the house. I've been pretty preoccupied with the fallout from a terrible relationship, so haven't been seeing anyone, but in the last few weeks I've started spending time with a woman, Lauren. She's slept over at our place about once a week during this period.
This evening Katie called me into the living room and said that it was unreasonable for me to have a houseguest over once a week when I rarely if ever leave the house for an extended period of time - I think I've been away for the weekend or a little longer about six or seven times since we moved in together. She proposed that I spend more time at Lauren's place, which I certainly intend to do, but everything at my place is much nicer than at hers - I have an ensuite, a nice television we can watch movies on, a large bed, etc etc etc. I said that I could eventually see maybe a 70/30 division between my place / Lauren's place, but Katie said that wasn't enough, and that she wanted at least parity.
I personally don't think a weekly houseguest is much of an imposition - Lauren and I tend to stay in my room, and we don't loudly fuck or watch films past like eight or nine at night or whatever. Were the situation to be reversed, I genuinely wouldn't mind, and indeed, I've always found it interesting and lively meeting the people that Katie is seeing and having a chat with them etcetera. I don't really get anything out of her trips away - I tend to spend most of my time in my room either way. So I guess the problem is that I feel Katie's statement of her preferences is somewhat unreasonable, and I feel like I'm being forced to compromise in a way that feels unfair. Is this just a failure of empathy on my part? As a housemate, are you obliged to balance out the time a houseguest spends over with an equal time spent away?
I don't really see the problem either, especially if you have your own bathroom. Maybe offer Katie to pay more utilities? Maybe you can let her know ahead of time when you will be out of your house and she can have it to herself?
posted by LoonyLovegood at 3:37 AM on September 22, 2014
posted by LoonyLovegood at 3:37 AM on September 22, 2014
Response by poster: Apartment is a good size two-bedroom, Lauren and I rarely use the shared spaces (twice we've finished watching a movie after Katie came home and then retired to my room), there's no issue with laundry or hot water. Lauren showers for like a minute in the morning, usually.
And I should clarify - when I say I "rarely leave the house", I mean for at least overnight - I'm in the lab every day, sometimes until after Katie has gone to bed, and I go out and see shows and have dinner and catch movies and stuff pretty regularly.
posted by nicolas léonard sadi carnot at 3:43 AM on September 22, 2014
And I should clarify - when I say I "rarely leave the house", I mean for at least overnight - I'm in the lab every day, sometimes until after Katie has gone to bed, and I go out and see shows and have dinner and catch movies and stuff pretty regularly.
posted by nicolas léonard sadi carnot at 3:43 AM on September 22, 2014
In that case it's probably not actually you & Lauren that's the problem, but Katie's latching on to it because there is something else going on in her life that is stressing her out and that she cannot control.
posted by kariebookish at 3:45 AM on September 22, 2014 [21 favorites]
posted by kariebookish at 3:45 AM on September 22, 2014 [21 favorites]
You should have agreed on the frequency of overnight guests when you moved in together. Now you probably need to sit down and hammer out an agreement and unfortunately it's probably on you to be more flexible. Whether it's fair or not, your roommate gets quite a bit of say in who is in her home and for how much of the time. She sounds stressed out and unhappy and giving her a little bit of space is the way you can avoid destroying your roommate relationship.
posted by chaiminda at 3:47 AM on September 22, 2014 [2 favorites]
posted by chaiminda at 3:47 AM on September 22, 2014 [2 favorites]
It might help to stop thinking about whether it's "reasonable" that the things she would like are not things that you would also like.
It's not "fair" to give you and me the exact same amount of toast for breakfast if you don't like toast.
The situation you have is that she would like more space, and you are able to give her more space but not as much as she would like.
It sounds like you have two choices here, you can say "look, this is what I can do, I'm not prepared to do more than that, sorry", or you can say something like "I don't want to stay over at Lauren's more than X but maybe I could work out of the house more often, or Lauren & I could take our holiday we planned around your deadline for writing up, what do you think?".
Whatever you say, she can then either say "OK fine", or she can be annoyed and grumpy with you thereafter, or she can decide to give notice and move somewhere on her own to get the space she wants.
It's up to you to navigate your path around these options the best way you can.
posted by emilyw at 4:04 AM on September 22, 2014 [5 favorites]
It's not "fair" to give you and me the exact same amount of toast for breakfast if you don't like toast.
The situation you have is that she would like more space, and you are able to give her more space but not as much as she would like.
It sounds like you have two choices here, you can say "look, this is what I can do, I'm not prepared to do more than that, sorry", or you can say something like "I don't want to stay over at Lauren's more than X but maybe I could work out of the house more often, or Lauren & I could take our holiday we planned around your deadline for writing up, what do you think?".
Whatever you say, she can then either say "OK fine", or she can be annoyed and grumpy with you thereafter, or she can decide to give notice and move somewhere on her own to get the space she wants.
It's up to you to navigate your path around these options the best way you can.
posted by emilyw at 4:04 AM on September 22, 2014 [5 favorites]
Katie's position doesn't seem reasonable to me, but I doubt that which side the internet comes down on will matter all that much; she's the one you live with, and she's got some kind of problem with what you're doing. I don't think you're going to find a way through this until you learn more about why this is bothering her. Noise? Jealousy? Utility costs? We only know the demand she's making, and not why she's making it. I wouldn't acquiesce to that demand, but I would engage her in a deeper conversation with the aim of understanding what's really going on for her. If you can manage that then a solution you can live with might become obvious.
posted by jon1270 at 4:12 AM on September 22, 2014 [10 favorites]
posted by jon1270 at 4:12 AM on September 22, 2014 [10 favorites]
Yeah this is grossly unreasonable to the point of weird.
An unobtrusive guest once a week isn't too much.
If anything, it's on the borderline of too little.
posted by dontjumplarry at 4:13 AM on September 22, 2014 [20 favorites]
An unobtrusive guest once a week isn't too much.
If anything, it's on the borderline of too little.
posted by dontjumplarry at 4:13 AM on September 22, 2014 [20 favorites]
kariebookish has it -- this is not about Lauren or about how much time you spend in the apartment; it is about something that you have absolutely zero control over. With that in mind, give her this thing and spend more nights at Lauren's (also, cheap motels can be fun every now and then).
posted by Etrigan at 4:14 AM on September 22, 2014 [1 favorite]
posted by Etrigan at 4:14 AM on September 22, 2014 [1 favorite]
And I should clarify - when I say I "rarely leave the house", I mean for at least overnight
This is probably what's bugging her, never having the house to herself. Work on spending more time away and she probably won't care about a once a week guest. Talk to her about this compromise.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 4:20 AM on September 22, 2014 [7 favorites]
This is probably what's bugging her, never having the house to herself. Work on spending more time away and she probably won't care about a once a week guest. Talk to her about this compromise.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 4:20 AM on September 22, 2014 [7 favorites]
Your roommate's requests sound unreasonable. How often has she had visitors around? If she had em around as often as Lauren has been around then she doesn't have much of a case. Otherwise, I think you should give her some space if you think that she's just having stress overflow. But I wouldn't hammer out any details on how long a guest can stay until she's in a calm place.
posted by defmute at 4:28 AM on September 22, 2014 [2 favorites]
posted by defmute at 4:28 AM on September 22, 2014 [2 favorites]
You say she's only sleeping over about once a week, but how often is she coming over to hang out and then she goes home?
posted by Andrhia at 4:29 AM on September 22, 2014 [2 favorites]
posted by Andrhia at 4:29 AM on September 22, 2014 [2 favorites]
Yes, that it too much and too often. Either get your own place or spend more time at your friend's place. The roommate situation is awkward enough with adding in an extra person.
posted by myselfasme at 4:32 AM on September 22, 2014 [1 favorite]
posted by myselfasme at 4:32 AM on September 22, 2014 [1 favorite]
Response by poster: Andrhia, good point. The once/week is the only time she spends at my place, no other hanging out here.
posted by nicolas léonard sadi carnot at 4:32 AM on September 22, 2014 [1 favorite]
posted by nicolas léonard sadi carnot at 4:32 AM on September 22, 2014 [1 favorite]
"She proposed that I spend more time at Lauren's place, which I certainly intend to do, but everything at my place is much nicer than at hers - I have an ensuite, a nice television we can watch movies on, a large bed, etc etc etc. I said that I could eventually see maybe a 70/30 division between my place / Lauren's place, but Katie said that wasn't enough, and that she wanted at least parity."
I would have found this rationale extremely annoying and maddening. The fact that you and Katie have a nicer apartment doesn't justify why your (and Katie's) apartment is the default place to spend the night with your girlfriend. I'd strive for a 50/50, where you and Lauren spend one weekend at your place, the next at Lauren's. If Katie's out of town weekend is predictable, try to make that your canoodling at home weekend.
posted by NikitaNikita at 4:56 AM on September 22, 2014 [3 favorites]
I would have found this rationale extremely annoying and maddening. The fact that you and Katie have a nicer apartment doesn't justify why your (and Katie's) apartment is the default place to spend the night with your girlfriend. I'd strive for a 50/50, where you and Lauren spend one weekend at your place, the next at Lauren's. If Katie's out of town weekend is predictable, try to make that your canoodling at home weekend.
posted by NikitaNikita at 4:56 AM on September 22, 2014 [3 favorites]
It sounds like Katie is mostly worried that the one night a week Lauren spends at your place will expand as the relationship goes on. (I have trouble imagining that there are no bathroom issues either.) And, yeah, it's nice to know you have the entire place to yourself for some time, knowing that the other person will not return -- maybe you don't like this, but a lot of people do.
You're not required to go out of town on weekends to make Katie happy, of course, but figure out what will happen in the future, should you and Lauren want to spend more than one night a week together, or more than one evening in.
posted by jeather at 5:23 AM on September 22, 2014
You're not required to go out of town on weekends to make Katie happy, of course, but figure out what will happen in the future, should you and Lauren want to spend more than one night a week together, or more than one evening in.
posted by jeather at 5:23 AM on September 22, 2014
Response by poster: jeather, re bathrooms, I have an ensuite and Katie has exclusive use of the main bathroom.
posted by nicolas léonard sadi carnot at 5:25 AM on September 22, 2014 [1 favorite]
posted by nicolas léonard sadi carnot at 5:25 AM on September 22, 2014 [1 favorite]
It's not your fault your roommate is lonely and angry. The "50/50" thing is a red herring - the only thing that affects your roommate is how many days a week the person stays over, and that is one out of seven, and no sane person would have a problem with that unless they were running a nunnery, in my opinion.
posted by ftm at 5:25 AM on September 22, 2014 [14 favorites]
posted by ftm at 5:25 AM on September 22, 2014 [14 favorites]
I suspect that Katie is feeling the pinch of living with a roommate at all, and this is merely the crisis that's bring her dissatisfaction to a head. Never having your home to yourself so you can eat Chubby Hubby in your underwear on the couch without worrying about whether your roommate is coming home can feel really restrictive over time. Look at her entire statement, rather than focusing on what she said about Lauren visiting:
This evening Katie called me into the living room and said that it was unreasonable for me to have a houseguest over once a week when I rarely if ever leave the house for an extended period of time.
The issue here is not so much Lauren coming over as it is you never leaving for long enough that she has the place predictably to herself. As long as you're just at the movies, she doesn't know when you're coming back, so she can't let her guard down.
That said, having been gone for a weekend 6 or 7 times in a year actually seems like a not unreasonable amount of time for a roommate to be gone, too, so overall, maybe Katie just isn't cut out to be anyone's roommate.
posted by jacquilynne at 5:33 AM on September 22, 2014 [19 favorites]
This evening Katie called me into the living room and said that it was unreasonable for me to have a houseguest over once a week when I rarely if ever leave the house for an extended period of time.
The issue here is not so much Lauren coming over as it is you never leaving for long enough that she has the place predictably to herself. As long as you're just at the movies, she doesn't know when you're coming back, so she can't let her guard down.
That said, having been gone for a weekend 6 or 7 times in a year actually seems like a not unreasonable amount of time for a roommate to be gone, too, so overall, maybe Katie just isn't cut out to be anyone's roommate.
posted by jacquilynne at 5:33 AM on September 22, 2014 [19 favorites]
The main point is that this problem will not be resolved by rational, logic proofs. Clearly something has got Katie's goat and you two, not strangers on the internet needs to come to some sort of compromise.
I'd ask Katie what the problem is. Yeah, your special lady friend sleeps over once a week, so what? You two keep to your room for the most part, have your own bathroom, so what's Katie's deal here? Is she simply stressed out? Doesn't like seeing a happy couple after a bad breakup? Has to compete for your time now? Her favorite cereal bowl is used by your special lady friend? She just wants to walk around the house in her underwear for an evening, after cooking liver and onions?
You two need to talk this out a bit, rather than having her dictating things. You also need to do a lot of listening to suss out what her problem is or just ask her outright.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 5:37 AM on September 22, 2014 [2 favorites]
I'd ask Katie what the problem is. Yeah, your special lady friend sleeps over once a week, so what? You two keep to your room for the most part, have your own bathroom, so what's Katie's deal here? Is she simply stressed out? Doesn't like seeing a happy couple after a bad breakup? Has to compete for your time now? Her favorite cereal bowl is used by your special lady friend? She just wants to walk around the house in her underwear for an evening, after cooking liver and onions?
You two need to talk this out a bit, rather than having her dictating things. You also need to do a lot of listening to suss out what her problem is or just ask her outright.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 5:37 AM on September 22, 2014 [2 favorites]
If Katie is looking for more time to herself in the apartment, then she probably shouldn't have a roommate. The thing about living with other people is that you can't control when they leave the apartment or stay or hang out in common areas (unless there's some lengthy rules about when and where and what happens in the common areas). It sounds like you guys have a decent enough relationship where you can say "hey, is something bothering you?" and try and get to the root of her feelings a bit more. A once a week house guest is not terrible, especially if you're mostly in your room. It may also be that Katie just doesn't like Lauren, for whatever reason. My guess is that Katie was happier when you were either in your room or in the lab and she pretty much had the run of the house.
posted by thefang at 6:01 AM on September 22, 2014 [6 favorites]
posted by thefang at 6:01 AM on September 22, 2014 [6 favorites]
If you have your own bathroom, you guys stay in your room, and it's only once a week, then your roommate is being not unreasonable, but ridiculous. Honestly, it doesn't matter whether you discussed overnight visitors or not. A steady girlfriend that's almost never in the common area? Objecting to that is no different than her telling you you're using the refrigerator too much or that you should only use the stove Tuesday through Friday. This is just an inherent part of having a home and she's trying to restrict it.
This is actually worth having a fight over if she won't drop this. She's trying to deny you reasonable use and comfort of your home, which is the reason why you want to be on good terms with your roommate in the first place. Obviously, try to resolve this amicably, but her suggestions about how often you go to your girlfriend's place is a non-starter.
And I should clarify - when I say I "rarely leave the house", I mean for at least overnight
This is probably what's bugging her, never having the house to herself.
That would bug me too, but you don't get to have this expectation when you have a roommate. Live by yourself if you want to have your place to yourself. Also, this would have nothing to do with the girlfriend.
posted by spaltavian at 6:04 AM on September 22, 2014 [16 favorites]
This is actually worth having a fight over if she won't drop this. She's trying to deny you reasonable use and comfort of your home, which is the reason why you want to be on good terms with your roommate in the first place. Obviously, try to resolve this amicably, but her suggestions about how often you go to your girlfriend's place is a non-starter.
And I should clarify - when I say I "rarely leave the house", I mean for at least overnight
This is probably what's bugging her, never having the house to herself.
That would bug me too, but you don't get to have this expectation when you have a roommate. Live by yourself if you want to have your place to yourself. Also, this would have nothing to do with the girlfriend.
posted by spaltavian at 6:04 AM on September 22, 2014 [16 favorites]
I was Katie in this situation, except my roommate had her girlfriend over 3 times a week, on average. She never went there unless it was a night that I was over at my boyfriend's house. My boyfriend visited me once in the year that I had a roommate. Once. Because why would I want to be in a house with extra people when I could be alone with my boyfriend? That never made sense to me.
Anyhow, there were two issues. One: I never had the house to myself in a predictable way (and because my roommate and I worked together I didn't have much time at work where I wasn't with her either) and Two: I had the tiny bedroom, the main bathroom... and a cat. Which meant that I had to sleep with my door open. And her girlfriend woke up at 3 am to go to work, loudly walking past my door and waking me up every time it happened.
Can you offer Katie the en suite? That would have made a huge difference for me. I would have been able to shut my cat in my bedroom because I would have been able to fit her litterbox in there and I wouldn't have been woken up every morning because the en suite was in the back of the apartment and my door would have been closed. And disregarding that detail, it did kind of bother me that I lived in the teeny tiny room and that I had to plan my actions around my roommate and her girlfriend. I felt like I had no privacy and no space. The bigger bedroom with the attached bathroom would have helped a lot with that, in retrospect.
And stay at Lauren's more often. I have a nice apartment of my own now - a lot nicer than my boyfriend's place - and we still spend time at his place. Why not? Why introduce that kind of disparity in our relationship?
Finally, try to limit sleepovers to the weekend. Friday or Saturday. A weeknight guest is a bit much for someone with a stressful job.
posted by sockermom at 6:08 AM on September 22, 2014 [2 favorites]
Anyhow, there were two issues. One: I never had the house to myself in a predictable way (and because my roommate and I worked together I didn't have much time at work where I wasn't with her either) and Two: I had the tiny bedroom, the main bathroom... and a cat. Which meant that I had to sleep with my door open. And her girlfriend woke up at 3 am to go to work, loudly walking past my door and waking me up every time it happened.
Can you offer Katie the en suite? That would have made a huge difference for me. I would have been able to shut my cat in my bedroom because I would have been able to fit her litterbox in there and I wouldn't have been woken up every morning because the en suite was in the back of the apartment and my door would have been closed. And disregarding that detail, it did kind of bother me that I lived in the teeny tiny room and that I had to plan my actions around my roommate and her girlfriend. I felt like I had no privacy and no space. The bigger bedroom with the attached bathroom would have helped a lot with that, in retrospect.
And stay at Lauren's more often. I have a nice apartment of my own now - a lot nicer than my boyfriend's place - and we still spend time at his place. Why not? Why introduce that kind of disparity in our relationship?
Finally, try to limit sleepovers to the weekend. Friday or Saturday. A weeknight guest is a bit much for someone with a stressful job.
posted by sockermom at 6:08 AM on September 22, 2014 [2 favorites]
If you haven't already, try communicating to Katie in advance what nights you're planning on having your guest over. Advance notice could allow her to avoid the situation if it's stressing her out.
Essentially, however, your roommate is making her problems yours. Nearly any typical dating scenario would include once-a-week stay-overs. Katie is demanding that you refrain from normal dating interactions because she's stressed. Anything you do to help her out is a favor of friendship, above and beyond your obligations as a roommate.
posted by airing nerdy laundry at 6:10 AM on September 22, 2014 [3 favorites]
Essentially, however, your roommate is making her problems yours. Nearly any typical dating scenario would include once-a-week stay-overs. Katie is demanding that you refrain from normal dating interactions because she's stressed. Anything you do to help her out is a favor of friendship, above and beyond your obligations as a roommate.
posted by airing nerdy laundry at 6:10 AM on September 22, 2014 [3 favorites]
I think people can have weird issues with space. I once had a roommate leave after the Christmas break because he felt I was home too much and he never had the place to himself. I preferred not to study in the library and did not have the money to go home/to go away for weekends etc. when it was not a term break. The irony was that after the Christmas break I got a part-time job and was home a lot less. But he was gone by then and didn't see it :)
I did feel at the time (and do now when I think about it) that he was unreasonable. I paid rent, and this was my home as well as his. I was entitled to spend as much time there, technically, as I pleased. But with that said, if he had sat down and had a conversation with me about this, I could have negotiated something where maybe one night I did specifically stay out and he could have had the place to himself. Maybe you could propose this in your situation. Ask her to pick a night (or two nights) where she will specifically be home and you can specifically not be?
posted by JoannaC at 6:13 AM on September 22, 2014 [1 favorite]
I did feel at the time (and do now when I think about it) that he was unreasonable. I paid rent, and this was my home as well as his. I was entitled to spend as much time there, technically, as I pleased. But with that said, if he had sat down and had a conversation with me about this, I could have negotiated something where maybe one night I did specifically stay out and he could have had the place to himself. Maybe you could propose this in your situation. Ask her to pick a night (or two nights) where she will specifically be home and you can specifically not be?
posted by JoannaC at 6:13 AM on September 22, 2014 [1 favorite]
This is not a matter of rational or reasonable and talking about distribution of hours spent at your house or Lauren's isn't going to solve the problem, in my opinion.
You've got a lease and every right to be in your own home every minute of every day if that's what you want. So does Katie.
I would immediately stop talking about how many minutes, hours, or nights Lauren is staying over and, instead, force Katie to focus on what actual impacts of that bother her. Is it money for utilities? Is it quiet time? If you can identify what the actual problems are, you can likely find a way to accommodate everyone. If there isn't anything actually wrong, then this is not your problem to solve.
posted by toomuchpete at 6:19 AM on September 22, 2014 [3 favorites]
You've got a lease and every right to be in your own home every minute of every day if that's what you want. So does Katie.
I would immediately stop talking about how many minutes, hours, or nights Lauren is staying over and, instead, force Katie to focus on what actual impacts of that bother her. Is it money for utilities? Is it quiet time? If you can identify what the actual problems are, you can likely find a way to accommodate everyone. If there isn't anything actually wrong, then this is not your problem to solve.
posted by toomuchpete at 6:19 AM on September 22, 2014 [3 favorites]
Response by poster: Regarding what actually is bothering Katie about Lauren staying over: I did ask her this when we had our conversation - I said that I didn't understand what it was exactly about Lauren being over that bothered her, given that we are generally pretty quiet and don't get in her way. She said that she found it really burdensome having another person that she doesn't know well in her space; that she found it trying that I rarely left overnight but that she felt obliged to put up with it because I paid rent and was therefore entitled to stay 100% of the time if I wanted, but that adding another person one night a week made the situation intolerable for her.
posted by nicolas léonard sadi carnot at 6:27 AM on September 22, 2014
posted by nicolas léonard sadi carnot at 6:27 AM on September 22, 2014
Yeah, you might want to lead with the fact that your roommate told you exactly what was bothering her.
In that light, Katie's frustration is understandable, she just wants the apartment to herself at time. Be a good roommate and give her some space, be it staying away from the house more often or whatever.
Also, this situation sounds like it may go away or diminish as Katie gets to know her.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 6:38 AM on September 22, 2014 [3 favorites]
In that light, Katie's frustration is understandable, she just wants the apartment to herself at time. Be a good roommate and give her some space, be it staying away from the house more often or whatever.
Also, this situation sounds like it may go away or diminish as Katie gets to know her.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 6:38 AM on September 22, 2014 [3 favorites]
Well, I think she's been pretty clear about what her issues are, OP, and she's being pretty upfront about the fact that while you are not obligated to change anything, she'd like if there was some change.
She's probably be less bothered by a once a week overnight guest if she had the house to herself for a couple of hours every week as well. Can you go to the movies or something on some kind of schedule you can let her know about?
posted by DarlingBri at 6:42 AM on September 22, 2014 [1 favorite]
She's probably be less bothered by a once a week overnight guest if she had the house to herself for a couple of hours every week as well. Can you go to the movies or something on some kind of schedule you can let her know about?
posted by DarlingBri at 6:42 AM on September 22, 2014 [1 favorite]
Katie has a difficult time sharing living space but is forced to do so because of circumstances. That sucks for Katie, but it's not fair that she make that someone else's problem.
A girlfriend or boyfriend sleeping over once a week is absolutely not unreasonable. This kind of thing becomes a problem when the boyfriend or girlfriend becomes a de facto extra roommate who does not pay rent or contribute to utility bills. That is absolutely not the situation you are describing.
If the two of you are in your room, being quiet - making use of an ensuite bathroom, for pity's sake! - and the issue is that the knowledge of your guest's existence bothers Katie? That is unreasonable (and actually kind of cruel) on Katie's part.
posted by erlking at 6:44 AM on September 22, 2014 [16 favorites]
A girlfriend or boyfriend sleeping over once a week is absolutely not unreasonable. This kind of thing becomes a problem when the boyfriend or girlfriend becomes a de facto extra roommate who does not pay rent or contribute to utility bills. That is absolutely not the situation you are describing.
If the two of you are in your room, being quiet - making use of an ensuite bathroom, for pity's sake! - and the issue is that the knowledge of your guest's existence bothers Katie? That is unreasonable (and actually kind of cruel) on Katie's part.
posted by erlking at 6:44 AM on September 22, 2014 [16 favorites]
Having someone over one night a week is totally reasonable, especially in light of you trying your best to stay out of Katie's way. It's understandable that Katie doesn't want people she doesn't know well in her space, but that is a downside of having a roommate. It's also understandable that she wants the apartment to herself sometimes, but that is also a downside of having a roommate. I don't see that you need to make any accommodations other than what you're already doing.
posted by festivus at 6:46 AM on September 22, 2014 [7 favorites]
posted by festivus at 6:46 AM on September 22, 2014 [7 favorites]
She is being unreasonable, but the only solution to this problem is getting your own apartment, I'm afraid.
If she wants the apartment all to herself the onus is on her to live alone, frankly, but since you can't control what she feels or does, you should seriously consider moving for your own peace of mind. An overnight guest once a week is completely normal but you can't logic your way out of her (in my opinion completely unreasonable) frustration.
posted by lydhre at 6:47 AM on September 22, 2014 [2 favorites]
If she wants the apartment all to herself the onus is on her to live alone, frankly, but since you can't control what she feels or does, you should seriously consider moving for your own peace of mind. An overnight guest once a week is completely normal but you can't logic your way out of her (in my opinion completely unreasonable) frustration.
posted by lydhre at 6:47 AM on September 22, 2014 [2 favorites]
One way you might possibly be making things worse for Katie is if you're being too quiet. You are making small talk before you leave the room, and saying things like "It's all yours now", or "see you in the morning" before you retire. Likewise if Lauren doesn't make gentle attempts at conversation with her occasionally, that's not going to help either.
posted by ambrosen at 6:48 AM on September 22, 2014
posted by ambrosen at 6:48 AM on September 22, 2014
Katie sounds like the sort of person who needs her spaaaaace. Remember it's not just physical space, it's mental headspace too. She got used to having her space (since you weren't seeing anyone) and is now having to switch gears.
Maybe she needs to meet Lauren a little bit to see that Lauren is friendly and nice and non-judgy, and so Katie doesn't have to be on her Sunday Best when Laura is around, or that she doesn't have to feel like a stranger in her own space.
If she's a solitary soul then I can see how once a week would be bothersome, especially since she can't control it. Can you make it "every Friday" so at least it is predictable? Otherwise, since you guys are quiet in your room, I can't see any other accommodation that won't start bending to her a little too much.
posted by St. Peepsburg at 6:53 AM on September 22, 2014
Maybe she needs to meet Lauren a little bit to see that Lauren is friendly and nice and non-judgy, and so Katie doesn't have to be on her Sunday Best when Laura is around, or that she doesn't have to feel like a stranger in her own space.
If she's a solitary soul then I can see how once a week would be bothersome, especially since she can't control it. Can you make it "every Friday" so at least it is predictable? Otherwise, since you guys are quiet in your room, I can't see any other accommodation that won't start bending to her a little too much.
posted by St. Peepsburg at 6:53 AM on September 22, 2014
she found it trying that I rarely left overnight
I would find that trying too, because I really recharge when I'm by myself. And that's why I have LIVED ALONE FOR FIVE YEARS and now that my boyfriend is moving in, we have separate spaces for solo downtime. Katie should live on her own or stop complaining -- and I say this as someone who completely, completely sympathizes when her needs and temperament.
posted by kate blank at 6:56 AM on September 22, 2014 [18 favorites]
I would find that trying too, because I really recharge when I'm by myself. And that's why I have LIVED ALONE FOR FIVE YEARS and now that my boyfriend is moving in, we have separate spaces for solo downtime. Katie should live on her own or stop complaining -- and I say this as someone who completely, completely sympathizes when her needs and temperament.
posted by kate blank at 6:56 AM on September 22, 2014 [18 favorites]
Hmm.
I do think she's being a little diva-ish, but I'm going to suggest that you give in and sleep over at your schmoopie's place a couple times. You still have the right to have her stay at your place, but I have a hunch that you staying at her place once in a blue moon will make your roommate feel like she's "won" a little bit, which will ultimately help.
I admit that this is just a hunch and a gut instinct about your roommate.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 6:57 AM on September 22, 2014
I do think she's being a little diva-ish, but I'm going to suggest that you give in and sleep over at your schmoopie's place a couple times. You still have the right to have her stay at your place, but I have a hunch that you staying at her place once in a blue moon will make your roommate feel like she's "won" a little bit, which will ultimately help.
I admit that this is just a hunch and a gut instinct about your roommate.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 6:57 AM on September 22, 2014
Get your own place. Compromising how much time you spend in/out of the house and with/without another person... is ridiculous.
posted by Sara_NOT_Sarah at 6:58 AM on September 22, 2014
posted by Sara_NOT_Sarah at 6:58 AM on September 22, 2014
She needs more space, and while a roommate situation is at odds with that, and while you aren't obligated to leave, as a kindness why not spend the night at Lauren's once a week? Or once every other week, whatever. Then have her over to your place once a week, too. But then your roomie can plan on having the place to herself on Friday nights, or whatever. It's no great burden to you, and your girl might like it too if she has you over sometimes.
posted by J. Wilson at 7:01 AM on September 22, 2014 [2 favorites]
posted by J. Wilson at 7:01 AM on September 22, 2014 [2 favorites]
I agree with the numerous diagnosis that Katie seem like the kind of person who needs solo time to relax and really should live alone, and that she is probably extra on-edge finishing her degree (and therefore might need extra down time etc etc). It does seem like Katie knows this about herself, though, and is pretty clear about what she needs.
Whether her demands are reasonable or not (and it's really not to the internet to judge), I think maybe figure out 1) if Katie's need for space is temporary. i.e. Will she loosen up once she's graduated? Will she be ok with Lauren once she got to know Lauren better? and 2) Are you prepared to find a new roommate or move out?
If Katie is otherwise an ideal roommate-- and we all know how rare those are-- and she could foresee getting comfortable around Lauren, then it'd be worthwhile to give Katie some space and ease her transition into time with Lauren. On the other hand, if you wouldn't mind a new roommate, then this seem like a good opportunity to part your ways. At the end of the day, both of you need to feel comfortable in your home. If her insistence on alone time in the apartment makes you feel uncomfortable when you are home, then it's time to move on and find a new roommate.
posted by atetrachordofthree at 7:09 AM on September 22, 2014
Whether her demands are reasonable or not (and it's really not to the internet to judge), I think maybe figure out 1) if Katie's need for space is temporary. i.e. Will she loosen up once she's graduated? Will she be ok with Lauren once she got to know Lauren better? and 2) Are you prepared to find a new roommate or move out?
If Katie is otherwise an ideal roommate-- and we all know how rare those are-- and she could foresee getting comfortable around Lauren, then it'd be worthwhile to give Katie some space and ease her transition into time with Lauren. On the other hand, if you wouldn't mind a new roommate, then this seem like a good opportunity to part your ways. At the end of the day, both of you need to feel comfortable in your home. If her insistence on alone time in the apartment makes you feel uncomfortable when you are home, then it's time to move on and find a new roommate.
posted by atetrachordofthree at 7:09 AM on September 22, 2014
It's ridiculous that she expects, in a roommate situation, for you to be away any nights at all. It's perfectly reasonable to have someone over one night a week.
posted by stormyteal at 7:28 AM on September 22, 2014 [9 favorites]
posted by stormyteal at 7:28 AM on September 22, 2014 [9 favorites]
Expecting your roommate to sleep elsewhere regularly is ridiculous. She's saying that your sleeping in the apartment without a partner is already a stressor for her, but that's what a lease is -- an agreement that you have someplace to sleep every night.
Good roommates do try to give each other space during the days or evenings, but expecting a roommate to go away for the weekend on a regular basis, unless you set up that expectation ahead of time (and likely reduced the rent for the person who's away all the time), is not normal.
As others have said, it's up to you how much you want to accommodate Katie's preferences, but I would hold onto the knowledge (even if you don't share it with Katie) that she's asking for extra favors, not typical roommate consideration.
posted by jaguar at 7:29 AM on September 22, 2014 [11 favorites]
Good roommates do try to give each other space during the days or evenings, but expecting a roommate to go away for the weekend on a regular basis, unless you set up that expectation ahead of time (and likely reduced the rent for the person who's away all the time), is not normal.
As others have said, it's up to you how much you want to accommodate Katie's preferences, but I would hold onto the knowledge (even if you don't share it with Katie) that she's asking for extra favors, not typical roommate consideration.
posted by jaguar at 7:29 AM on September 22, 2014 [11 favorites]
Katie's request seems a bit unreasonable. Especially since it sounds as though she hardly ever sees Lauren when she's in your shared apartment. And no, roommates are not obliged to balance out the time a house guest spends over with an equal time spent away.
It sounds to me as though Katie is a very private person, and just doesn't like having "strangers" in the apartment. This is likely why she felt it was fine to have her romantic partners over occasionally, but not yours. It's also a good reason for her to live alone.
On the other hand, depending on the size of an apartment and what feels "crowded" to each person, one additional person can make a big difference in a person's enjoyment of their home. Once upon a time I shared my relatively large (by NYC standards) two-bedroom apartment with my girlfriend and me in one bedroom and a roommate in the other bedroom. When my roommate's girlfriend stayed over, which she eventually was doing around 3 nights a week, the apartment felt very crowded and it diminished the value I was getting out of my rent. And his girlfriend wasn't even a "stranger." I had known her for years, and she had known my girlfriend since graduate school. They had similar reasons for largely hanging out at our place -- i.e., that it was larger and nicer than her place -- and I did start to feel it was unfair that we had to "shoulder the entire burden" of their cohabitation because he never slept over at her apartment. All this is to say that, if she views having Lauren in the apartment overnight as a mild imposition, Katie might wish you were spending equal time in Lauren's apartment. If the relationship progresses to the point where the two of you want to spend more than one overnight together each week, I would encourage you find a way to spend that additional overnight at Lauren's place. That way, the one night of Lauren would be "balanced" by one night with no one.
For the time being, it might be helpful to have a conversation with Katie about what it is that she doesn't like about having Katie in the apartment to see if you can reach some kind of reasonable compromise. If it's the case that she craves more alone time (taking a weekend trip once a month to get out of the house suggests this may be the case) this could be valuable information for you to have.
Also: Whose apartment is it? This is to ask: Did the two of you find the apartment together? Or are you effectively her roommate? Or is she effectively your roommate? If one of you decided that it wasn't working for the two of you to share the apartment, who would be expected to move out? Feelings of ownership can definitely have an effect on how these things are perceived.
posted by slkinsey at 7:35 AM on September 22, 2014 [1 favorite]
It sounds to me as though Katie is a very private person, and just doesn't like having "strangers" in the apartment. This is likely why she felt it was fine to have her romantic partners over occasionally, but not yours. It's also a good reason for her to live alone.
On the other hand, depending on the size of an apartment and what feels "crowded" to each person, one additional person can make a big difference in a person's enjoyment of their home. Once upon a time I shared my relatively large (by NYC standards) two-bedroom apartment with my girlfriend and me in one bedroom and a roommate in the other bedroom. When my roommate's girlfriend stayed over, which she eventually was doing around 3 nights a week, the apartment felt very crowded and it diminished the value I was getting out of my rent. And his girlfriend wasn't even a "stranger." I had known her for years, and she had known my girlfriend since graduate school. They had similar reasons for largely hanging out at our place -- i.e., that it was larger and nicer than her place -- and I did start to feel it was unfair that we had to "shoulder the entire burden" of their cohabitation because he never slept over at her apartment. All this is to say that, if she views having Lauren in the apartment overnight as a mild imposition, Katie might wish you were spending equal time in Lauren's apartment. If the relationship progresses to the point where the two of you want to spend more than one overnight together each week, I would encourage you find a way to spend that additional overnight at Lauren's place. That way, the one night of Lauren would be "balanced" by one night with no one.
For the time being, it might be helpful to have a conversation with Katie about what it is that she doesn't like about having Katie in the apartment to see if you can reach some kind of reasonable compromise. If it's the case that she craves more alone time (taking a weekend trip once a month to get out of the house suggests this may be the case) this could be valuable information for you to have.
Also: Whose apartment is it? This is to ask: Did the two of you find the apartment together? Or are you effectively her roommate? Or is she effectively your roommate? If one of you decided that it wasn't working for the two of you to share the apartment, who would be expected to move out? Feelings of ownership can definitely have an effect on how these things are perceived.
posted by slkinsey at 7:35 AM on September 22, 2014 [1 favorite]
Response by poster: slkinsey, we found the place together. Don't know who would be expected to move out if we found ourselves at an impasse.
posted by nicolas léonard sadi carnot at 7:42 AM on September 22, 2014
posted by nicolas léonard sadi carnot at 7:42 AM on September 22, 2014
I'm a super social person. I have had scores of roommates and once lived with five people and the house was never empty. There were always roommates, friends, and SOs hanging out in the kitchen and living room. I loved it. If I needed space, I retired to my room. I never particularly took note of whose boyfriend/girlfriend/FWB/one nighter was staying at the house. One of our roommates was a self-described hermit and she didn't even mind that the house was always full of people. She said "If I'm feeling antisocial or hermit-y, I'll just hide in my room. Hope you guys are cool with that!"
She proposed that I spend more time at Lauren's place, which I certainly intend to do, but everything at my place is much nicer than at hers - I have an ensuite, a nice television we can watch movies on, a large bed, etc etc etc. I said that I could eventually see maybe a 70/30 division between my place / Lauren's place, but Katie said that wasn't enough, and that she wanted at least parity.
That's very specific and oddly controlling and I'm guessing no matter what you do, it will have to be on her terms. I would not be okay with this and would be saying "No, I'm not going to do those things. Where do we go from here?"
posted by futureisunwritten at 7:42 AM on September 22, 2014 [1 favorite]
She proposed that I spend more time at Lauren's place, which I certainly intend to do, but everything at my place is much nicer than at hers - I have an ensuite, a nice television we can watch movies on, a large bed, etc etc etc. I said that I could eventually see maybe a 70/30 division between my place / Lauren's place, but Katie said that wasn't enough, and that she wanted at least parity.
That's very specific and oddly controlling and I'm guessing no matter what you do, it will have to be on her terms. I would not be okay with this and would be saying "No, I'm not going to do those things. Where do we go from here?"
posted by futureisunwritten at 7:42 AM on September 22, 2014 [1 favorite]
This sounds like my situation in grad school. I shared an apartment with a roommate. We had separate bedrooms and bathrooms. My girlfriend came over almost every weekend, and stayed the whole weekend. My roommate didn't seem to have a problem with this, and our noise cutoff time was about 11 PM, too.
Two major differences:
* My roommate had a regular adult job with 7:30-4:30 hours and was not a student.
* My roommate was a guy.
I don't think you having a weekly houseguest is unreasonable. Sounds like Katie may be too stressed out, or maybe she's interested in you and jealous. I think she's being a bit unreasonable.
Whose apartment is it? Are both your names on the lease? If one of you is not on the lease, then the one who isn't on the lease is at the mercy of the person who is. If you both are, then you should have had a discussion on this before moving in together. At any rate, you and Katie should have a conversation about this -- what is it she doesn't like about Lauren being there?
posted by tckma at 7:42 AM on September 22, 2014
Two major differences:
* My roommate had a regular adult job with 7:30-4:30 hours and was not a student.
* My roommate was a guy.
I don't think you having a weekly houseguest is unreasonable. Sounds like Katie may be too stressed out, or maybe she's interested in you and jealous. I think she's being a bit unreasonable.
Whose apartment is it? Are both your names on the lease? If one of you is not on the lease, then the one who isn't on the lease is at the mercy of the person who is. If you both are, then you should have had a discussion on this before moving in together. At any rate, you and Katie should have a conversation about this -- what is it she doesn't like about Lauren being there?
posted by tckma at 7:42 AM on September 22, 2014
I also think Katie is being unreasonable, but given that she's in her last year of a graduate program, she's probably in a world of stress. If this situation was going to be going on indefinitely, I would argue that you need to stand up for your rights to have overnight guests, but I wonder if trying to work out a schedule in advance, so she knows when your girlfriend will be over and can anticipate how much she will be required to share her living space, she might be able to incorporate that predictability into what is probably a crazy, uncertain time for her.
posted by bibliowench at 8:07 AM on September 22, 2014 [1 favorite]
posted by bibliowench at 8:07 AM on September 22, 2014 [1 favorite]
the issue is that the knowledge of your guest's existence bothers Katie? That is unreasonable (and actually kind of cruel) on Katie's part.
I don't think it's unreasonable to be bothered. For some (including me), a home is primarily important as a private place. It's where you go to escape social interaction. It can be taxing to know that a stranger is in your home with you. You're more conscious of yourself, less comfortable walking around just wearing a robe, less likely to talk to yourself aloud when working through a problem, less likely to want to have phone calls that can be heard by others, etc. When you live with a roommate, you abrogate some of these freedoms, and you have to learn to make yourself comfortable with the other person always being around. But every additional person makes the place feel less like "your home," especially when that person is a stranger to you.
That's not to say that Katie's demands are reasonable. Still, it seems like a lot of people here are saying that, if the guest isn't using any resources and if she isn't out in the common spaces that much, Katie should not be bothered at all. I disagree. Katie's being bothered is reasonable. The question is how to balance her bother and your desire and your right to have a guest over.
posted by painquale at 8:13 AM on September 22, 2014 [10 favorites]
I don't think it's unreasonable to be bothered. For some (including me), a home is primarily important as a private place. It's where you go to escape social interaction. It can be taxing to know that a stranger is in your home with you. You're more conscious of yourself, less comfortable walking around just wearing a robe, less likely to talk to yourself aloud when working through a problem, less likely to want to have phone calls that can be heard by others, etc. When you live with a roommate, you abrogate some of these freedoms, and you have to learn to make yourself comfortable with the other person always being around. But every additional person makes the place feel less like "your home," especially when that person is a stranger to you.
That's not to say that Katie's demands are reasonable. Still, it seems like a lot of people here are saying that, if the guest isn't using any resources and if she isn't out in the common spaces that much, Katie should not be bothered at all. I disagree. Katie's being bothered is reasonable. The question is how to balance her bother and your desire and your right to have a guest over.
posted by painquale at 8:13 AM on September 22, 2014 [10 favorites]
While I get why people think Katie is being unreasonable, I have to say that I totally feel her pain in this situation. I remember when I lived with a roommate, it drove me slowly and completely bugfuck that she never. seemed. to leave. Intellectually and logically, I totally understood that she had every right to never leave the premises if that's what pleased her; her name was on the lease and she paid half the rent, so legally and morally she was completely in the clear. However, it just seemed kind of inconsiderate to me that she never cleared out, ever, except to go to work, so that I could have the place to myself even for four or five hours in the evening. To make matters worse, she allowed a friend to crash on our couch once every couple of weeks (not a romantic partner -- just a friend) and never asked me whether it was ok with me. I do think people need unrestricted time to themselves; having someone on the premises, even in another room with the door shut, doesn't allow for that.
Saying "Well, she should live alone if that's what she wants" isn't really terribly helpful in this situation. May as well say "Well, she should just have more money, and that way her problems would be solved!" Well, yes -- obviously, of course everyone prefers to be able to live without roommates. But that's not possible financially for a grad student, so that's not really an answer that's going to do anything to improve the situation except make everyone more frustrated. And if we're looking at it that way, it would be every bit as reasonable to say, "Well, Lauren should get a nicer apartment if she wants a TV and an ensuite!"
So yeah, even if Lauren's place isn't quite as nice, I think it would be best for you to spend some time over there in addition to having her at your place. May not seem "fair," whatever that means in this situation, but it acknowledges Katie's feelings (which don't seem at all unreasonable to me) in a concrete way.
posted by holborne at 8:30 AM on September 22, 2014 [8 favorites]
Saying "Well, she should live alone if that's what she wants" isn't really terribly helpful in this situation. May as well say "Well, she should just have more money, and that way her problems would be solved!" Well, yes -- obviously, of course everyone prefers to be able to live without roommates. But that's not possible financially for a grad student, so that's not really an answer that's going to do anything to improve the situation except make everyone more frustrated. And if we're looking at it that way, it would be every bit as reasonable to say, "Well, Lauren should get a nicer apartment if she wants a TV and an ensuite!"
So yeah, even if Lauren's place isn't quite as nice, I think it would be best for you to spend some time over there in addition to having her at your place. May not seem "fair," whatever that means in this situation, but it acknowledges Katie's feelings (which don't seem at all unreasonable to me) in a concrete way.
posted by holborne at 8:30 AM on September 22, 2014 [8 favorites]
Technically she can't DEMAND to have the place to herself even occasionally since she has a roommate. But it sounds like it would be easy and decent if you would just say "ok, I will do you this kindness" and agree that Fridays (or whatever) you will stay overnight at your girlfriend's. Katie will get to plan her head-clearing, alone-on-the-couch time and savor it; knowing it's coming up will help her stay sane otherwise, and you will get time at your girlfriend's.
There will always be compromises living with a roommate and this sounds like it would do her a lot more good than it would cost you.
posted by fingersandtoes at 8:35 AM on September 22, 2014 [3 favorites]
There will always be compromises living with a roommate and this sounds like it would do her a lot more good than it would cost you.
posted by fingersandtoes at 8:35 AM on September 22, 2014 [3 favorites]
There's more here, I suspect, than meets the eye.
That's my take. I'm one of those "I am a private person so I live alone" people. I think living with someone else who is not your significant other carries with it the possibility of them dating other people and having them sleep over. This is just ... normal. So I agree with others that you should have talked this out at least a little bit beforehand but I do thing (as a member of the internet peanut gallery) that having an SO staying over one night a week is not asking too much. I think negotiating from the point of "My place is nicer, so we'll be here" and nickel and diming over the time split is not actually that useful. The apartment is nicer for Katie too. She'd like some time alone there, she has said. Find a way to make it work for both of you.
If it were me this would mean either being gone some predictable times "We're going away on an overnight Saturday, back Sunday dinnertime" or lumping it and being at Lauren's place even when it's not your favorite. Or even having dinner or whatever at your place and then sleeping over at Lauren's. Some people just get agitated by the unpredictability of a third person who is not the person they agreed to have an arrangement with. This can be for all sorts of things (morning shower time, kitchen routine, noise level) and now that you know that Katie may be one of those people (presuming this isn't something more straightforward like SHE HAS A CRUSH ON YOU) you can work to make your time there and away more predictable.
But also, I would lead with "I'm sorry this makes you uncomfortable; let's find a way to try to be considerate to each other" and not "What would make you feel better?" I had an SO who, when I met him, was in a complicated live-in co-parenting situation with his son's mom who basically tried to dictate when it was okay and not okay for me to come over. It was not pleasant. Anxiety can lead to people trying to gain more control over their environment than might be otherwise acceptable etiquette-wise. Now that you know this about Katie you can make a choice about what you want to do about living with her once the lease is up.
posted by jessamyn at 8:37 AM on September 22, 2014 [3 favorites]
That's my take. I'm one of those "I am a private person so I live alone" people. I think living with someone else who is not your significant other carries with it the possibility of them dating other people and having them sleep over. This is just ... normal. So I agree with others that you should have talked this out at least a little bit beforehand but I do thing (as a member of the internet peanut gallery) that having an SO staying over one night a week is not asking too much. I think negotiating from the point of "My place is nicer, so we'll be here" and nickel and diming over the time split is not actually that useful. The apartment is nicer for Katie too. She'd like some time alone there, she has said. Find a way to make it work for both of you.
If it were me this would mean either being gone some predictable times "We're going away on an overnight Saturday, back Sunday dinnertime" or lumping it and being at Lauren's place even when it's not your favorite. Or even having dinner or whatever at your place and then sleeping over at Lauren's. Some people just get agitated by the unpredictability of a third person who is not the person they agreed to have an arrangement with. This can be for all sorts of things (morning shower time, kitchen routine, noise level) and now that you know that Katie may be one of those people (presuming this isn't something more straightforward like SHE HAS A CRUSH ON YOU) you can work to make your time there and away more predictable.
But also, I would lead with "I'm sorry this makes you uncomfortable; let's find a way to try to be considerate to each other" and not "What would make you feel better?" I had an SO who, when I met him, was in a complicated live-in co-parenting situation with his son's mom who basically tried to dictate when it was okay and not okay for me to come over. It was not pleasant. Anxiety can lead to people trying to gain more control over their environment than might be otherwise acceptable etiquette-wise. Now that you know this about Katie you can make a choice about what you want to do about living with her once the lease is up.
posted by jessamyn at 8:37 AM on September 22, 2014 [3 favorites]
Also just as a semantic point, I don't see this as a "houseguest" situation per se. Having romantic partners sleep over is at a different level than just having standard guests with roommates "outranking" houseguests in most cases but being more on the same level as significant others in terms of who to prioritize.
posted by jessamyn at 8:39 AM on September 22, 2014 [1 favorite]
posted by jessamyn at 8:39 AM on September 22, 2014 [1 favorite]
she found it trying that I rarely left overnight but that she felt obliged to put up with it because I paid rent and was therefore entitled to stay 100% of the time if I wanted, but that adding another person one night a week made the situation intolerable for her
It sounds like Katie's preference is to have the apartment to herself once in a while overnight, but understands having a roommate means that this might never happen.
You having your girlfriend over once a week, and Katie knowing that you could decide to spend the night with Lauren away from your shared apartment, but choose not to, is annoying her. That your reason for not spending some of these nights with Lauren is that Lauren's apartment is not as nice (instead of being simply not possible for some reason) isn't going to cause her to see it as reasonable.
Yeah, you are entitled to use your apartment and a guest once a week isn't unreasonable. You could certainly blow this up into a huge area of disagreement and discomfort, or move out, or get a new roommate -- who would probably bring a new set of roommate issues.
But you want to Lauren to visit you on 70% of your nights together so you can enjoy your TV and bathroom, and Katie would like for Lauren to visit you only on 50% of those nights. Weigh the discomfort of going without the nice TV and bathroom once a month against what works for you with your current roommate and think about if this is an area you could compromise on.
I don't really get anything out of her trips away
Perhaps there is some other thing you'd like to get from your living situation that you'd be happy with in exchange for suffering with Lauren's TV and bathroom once more a month than you would like, something that would make the situation feel more fair to you.
posted by yohko at 9:00 AM on September 22, 2014 [2 favorites]
It sounds like Katie's preference is to have the apartment to herself once in a while overnight, but understands having a roommate means that this might never happen.
You having your girlfriend over once a week, and Katie knowing that you could decide to spend the night with Lauren away from your shared apartment, but choose not to, is annoying her. That your reason for not spending some of these nights with Lauren is that Lauren's apartment is not as nice (instead of being simply not possible for some reason) isn't going to cause her to see it as reasonable.
Yeah, you are entitled to use your apartment and a guest once a week isn't unreasonable. You could certainly blow this up into a huge area of disagreement and discomfort, or move out, or get a new roommate -- who would probably bring a new set of roommate issues.
But you want to Lauren to visit you on 70% of your nights together so you can enjoy your TV and bathroom, and Katie would like for Lauren to visit you only on 50% of those nights. Weigh the discomfort of going without the nice TV and bathroom once a month against what works for you with your current roommate and think about if this is an area you could compromise on.
I don't really get anything out of her trips away
Perhaps there is some other thing you'd like to get from your living situation that you'd be happy with in exchange for suffering with Lauren's TV and bathroom once more a month than you would like, something that would make the situation feel more fair to you.
posted by yohko at 9:00 AM on September 22, 2014 [2 favorites]
I don't really get anything out of her trips away
Picking up on this one a little more -- I've found that some people really, really, really need time completely alone (I am one of those people), and some people don't. The latter group tends not to understand the former group at all; it's kind of like they're speaking two different languages or have a huge, unbridgeable culture difference. The don't-care-about-time-alone people tend to view things as, "Well, I'm in a different room with the door shut, so why does she care that I'm in the house? It's not like she can see me." And that sounds like it should make perfect sense. But to those of us needing time alone, unoccupied premises versus premises occupied by someone else, even someone else in a different room with the door shut, are just two totally different things. I really can't explain it any better than that. Maybe it's introversion versus extraversion, but I think there's something else at play there.
It seems pretty clear that Katie is one of the "need to be in a totally unoccupied house from time to time" group, and take it from me -- trying to reason or talk her out of it, odd as her position seems to you, isn't going to do anything other than to make everyone mad and frustrated.
posted by holborne at 9:47 AM on September 22, 2014 [9 favorites]
Picking up on this one a little more -- I've found that some people really, really, really need time completely alone (I am one of those people), and some people don't. The latter group tends not to understand the former group at all; it's kind of like they're speaking two different languages or have a huge, unbridgeable culture difference. The don't-care-about-time-alone people tend to view things as, "Well, I'm in a different room with the door shut, so why does she care that I'm in the house? It's not like she can see me." And that sounds like it should make perfect sense. But to those of us needing time alone, unoccupied premises versus premises occupied by someone else, even someone else in a different room with the door shut, are just two totally different things. I really can't explain it any better than that. Maybe it's introversion versus extraversion, but I think there's something else at play there.
It seems pretty clear that Katie is one of the "need to be in a totally unoccupied house from time to time" group, and take it from me -- trying to reason or talk her out of it, odd as her position seems to you, isn't going to do anything other than to make everyone mad and frustrated.
posted by holborne at 9:47 AM on September 22, 2014 [9 favorites]
I have no sympathy for your roommate. You are entirely within reason to have a new girlfriend over once a week. And you are not intruding into her space. This is definitely something she needs to get over.
Her problem is your lady friend is a stranger? Make your roomie meet your girlfriend and hang out for an evening to help her get to know her better.
posted by lizbunny at 9:54 AM on September 22, 2014 [1 favorite]
Her problem is your lady friend is a stranger? Make your roomie meet your girlfriend and hang out for an evening to help her get to know her better.
posted by lizbunny at 9:54 AM on September 22, 2014 [1 favorite]
Make your roomie meet your girlfriend and hang out for an evening to help her get to know her better.
From what you've told us about Katie's stressful schoolwork and her specific need for privacy, I think this would make things worse, not better. Katie's issue was that she wants to be alone in her home occasionally, not that she doesn't know your girlfriend.
posted by fingersandtoes at 10:14 AM on September 22, 2014 [2 favorites]
From what you've told us about Katie's stressful schoolwork and her specific need for privacy, I think this would make things worse, not better. Katie's issue was that she wants to be alone in her home occasionally, not that she doesn't know your girlfriend.
posted by fingersandtoes at 10:14 AM on September 22, 2014 [2 favorites]
I have no sympathy for your roommate.
OP, it's important to note that none of us know you or have to live with her. You do. So you gotta figure out whether you care about the issue and a) if so what you want to do about it or b) if you don't care, then what sort of blowback are you going to get from her.
She may not be reasonable about this, but roommates, be they friends or lovers get like that sometime, especially grad students in their final year.
In this situation do you want to be right or do you want to be relieve the tension?
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 10:32 AM on September 22, 2014 [2 favorites]
OP, it's important to note that none of us know you or have to live with her. You do. So you gotta figure out whether you care about the issue and a) if so what you want to do about it or b) if you don't care, then what sort of blowback are you going to get from her.
She may not be reasonable about this, but roommates, be they friends or lovers get like that sometime, especially grad students in their final year.
In this situation do you want to be right or do you want to be relieve the tension?
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 10:32 AM on September 22, 2014 [2 favorites]
In the 2 situations when I've lived with a roommate, I LOVED having the house to myself. Even though my 2 roommates were great and very considerate and spent a lot of time closed up in their rooms, it still was very nice when nobody was at home with me. It's possible that before you and Lauren got together, your roommate was already wishing you'd leave more often.
Ask her. If it's true, then ask more questions. If you're going to absent yourself as a favor to her, you might as well do so at times she'll benefit from.
It's typical in roommate situations for someone to keep quiet when something's bothering her. Then one more thing happens and seems like it's related to the original gripe. See if giving your roommate time alone will help her enjoy living there more. I'm not talking about lots of weekends or lots of overnights. Find out what minimum she's looking for, and then do more than that.
posted by wryly at 10:44 AM on September 22, 2014 [2 favorites]
Ask her. If it's true, then ask more questions. If you're going to absent yourself as a favor to her, you might as well do so at times she'll benefit from.
It's typical in roommate situations for someone to keep quiet when something's bothering her. Then one more thing happens and seems like it's related to the original gripe. See if giving your roommate time alone will help her enjoy living there more. I'm not talking about lots of weekends or lots of overnights. Find out what minimum she's looking for, and then do more than that.
posted by wryly at 10:44 AM on September 22, 2014 [2 favorites]
It sounds like Kate wants to live alone, but for whatever reason, can't. It's not reasonable for her to ask you to limit your SO's once a week visits, especially considering that you stay out of common areas, are quiet, and also don't have to share a bathroom. It's once a week. This situation is hardly comparable to someone who practically moves their SO in and spends all their time in common areas.
It's even nuttier for her to expect that you leave your own home periodically so that she can have the place to herself. She has a roommate. Having someone else in your home is part of having a roommate. Her decision to have occasional overnights elsewhere do not obligate you to do the same. You are already out of the home for long stretches due to work and school. She may wish for more than that, but she should keep that to herself instead of asking you to leave your own home so that she can have more time pretending that she doesn't have a roommate.
I'd gently point this out and if her main concern is that she doesn't know your SO, that can be remedied easily. But, beyond that, don't be a doormat. She enjoyed hosting SOs in your home for years while you nursed a broken heart and you didn't flinch. Now she can extend the same courtesy.
posted by quince at 10:51 AM on September 22, 2014 [3 favorites]
It's even nuttier for her to expect that you leave your own home periodically so that she can have the place to herself. She has a roommate. Having someone else in your home is part of having a roommate. Her decision to have occasional overnights elsewhere do not obligate you to do the same. You are already out of the home for long stretches due to work and school. She may wish for more than that, but she should keep that to herself instead of asking you to leave your own home so that she can have more time pretending that she doesn't have a roommate.
I'd gently point this out and if her main concern is that she doesn't know your SO, that can be remedied easily. But, beyond that, don't be a doormat. She enjoyed hosting SOs in your home for years while you nursed a broken heart and you didn't flinch. Now she can extend the same courtesy.
posted by quince at 10:51 AM on September 22, 2014 [3 favorites]
In this situation do you want to be right or do you want to be relieve the tension?
That's the problem, being "wrong" is just going to create another kind of attention: it would be the OP who can no longer have the reasonable, comfortable use of their home. If this were an unreasonable, but otherwise innocuous request- like, she only wants black kitchen trash bags, not white ones- it would be worth just going with it. This is completely different, it's an issue of whether the OP gets the full and reasonable use of the home they pay for.
posted by spaltavian at 11:01 AM on September 22, 2014 [2 favorites]
That's the problem, being "wrong" is just going to create another kind of attention: it would be the OP who can no longer have the reasonable, comfortable use of their home. If this were an unreasonable, but otherwise innocuous request- like, she only wants black kitchen trash bags, not white ones- it would be worth just going with it. This is completely different, it's an issue of whether the OP gets the full and reasonable use of the home they pay for.
posted by spaltavian at 11:01 AM on September 22, 2014 [2 favorites]
The people who are telling you to move out are giving awful advice. It's not your responsibility to tiptoe around the unreasonable requests of your roommate.
And her demands are indeed completely unreasonable - if she wanted to have a roommate who was not allowed to have guests over and was expected to spend extended periods of time out of the apartment, that needed to be agreed on ahead of time. Otherwise, since she doesn't want to have a roommate that behaves completely normally, she needs to live on her own.
If I were in your situation, I'd put my foot down on this one and say something like "look, I get that you're really stressed out right now, but I'm paying for this apartment too and having a guest over once a week is a totally normal thing to do. I will continue to be respectful - we won't eat your food, we won't use your bathroom, and we'll hang out in my ensuite rather than in the living room, but I'm not going to avoid having Lauren over in my own private space."
posted by zug at 11:14 AM on September 22, 2014 [3 favorites]
And her demands are indeed completely unreasonable - if she wanted to have a roommate who was not allowed to have guests over and was expected to spend extended periods of time out of the apartment, that needed to be agreed on ahead of time. Otherwise, since she doesn't want to have a roommate that behaves completely normally, she needs to live on her own.
If I were in your situation, I'd put my foot down on this one and say something like "look, I get that you're really stressed out right now, but I'm paying for this apartment too and having a guest over once a week is a totally normal thing to do. I will continue to be respectful - we won't eat your food, we won't use your bathroom, and we'll hang out in my ensuite rather than in the living room, but I'm not going to avoid having Lauren over in my own private space."
posted by zug at 11:14 AM on September 22, 2014 [3 favorites]
For people who missed it, the OP clarified:
And I should clarify - when I say I "rarely leave the house", I mean for at least overnight - I'm in the lab every day, sometimes until after Katie has gone to bed, and I go out and see shows and have dinner and catch movies and stuff pretty regularly.
She already is letting Katie have the house to herself in the normal roommate-out-for-the evening ways. Katie is still labeling that as "rarely" leaving the house. And in the question, the OP said she is leaving the house for the weekend or longer every other month or so.
posted by jaguar at 11:27 AM on September 22, 2014 [1 favorite]
And I should clarify - when I say I "rarely leave the house", I mean for at least overnight - I'm in the lab every day, sometimes until after Katie has gone to bed, and I go out and see shows and have dinner and catch movies and stuff pretty regularly.
She already is letting Katie have the house to herself in the normal roommate-out-for-the evening ways. Katie is still labeling that as "rarely" leaving the house. And in the question, the OP said she is leaving the house for the weekend or longer every other month or so.
posted by jaguar at 11:27 AM on September 22, 2014 [1 favorite]
I think what is really happening here is that Katie assumed that when you got a new partner, you'd be out of the house more, which she had wanted all along. Now, she's disappointed that that hasn't turned out to be the case. While it's perfectly reasonable to FEEL that way, it's not very reasonable to make demands about this. Although you don't say specifically in your question, the way you phrased it made it seem more like her approach was "You are being so unreasonable to have someone over once a week even though I used to do that all the time!" rather than "Hey, I am so stressed out right now and am wondering if you can do me a huge favor." While those might both be ASKING the same thing, they're going to elicit a very different response from the person hearing it.
That said, since you mentioned that you and Katie found this apartment together, I'm curious whether you consider each other to be friends or just roommates. In the "just roommates" situation, I think my response would be to the effect of "I feel like I'm following the guest policy that you followed when you were dating frequently, and furthermore I'm not violating the lease. It seems like what you really want is for me to be out of the house more often, but because I am paying rent and am on the lease, that will not be possible. While I'm sympathetic to the fact that you might be happier living alone, I'm not really willing to commit to leaving my apartment overnight on a regular basis while still paying full rent." Then it's on her to make you an offer -- if she can offer you something YOU want (lower rent, curbing a non-lease-violating-but-annoying habit she has, offering to take out the trash every week, etc.) you can make a trade. But beyond that, you're well within both "common sense" guest policies and every lease I have ever been on (most have had an overnight guest limit, but it was well above 3-4 nights per month).
On the other hand, if you consider Katie a friend and you consider this a friendship worth preserving, I think it makes sense to be more flexible. In that case, try to think of it NOT as an unreasonable concession you're making to a roommate, but rather a gift you are giving to a friend who is going through a stressful time. I have had friend-roomies for whom I've done all sorts of things I would never do for someone I didn't have that closer relationship with, and I did it because I cared about them as a person and wanted to make sure we continued having a relationship/friendship after we were no longer roomies. (Earlier in life, I took the opposite approach and lost a close friend that I didn't mesh well with as a roomie. I definitely wish I could have been more patient/giving and taken the longer perspective that we were roommates for 9 months but could have been friends for much longer. Of course, that is hard when you are 19!)
If this is a friendship you want to keep, give the gift of some nights alone at the apartment generously and freely, and then when the lease is up in however many months, consider finding a new roommate who meshes better with your needs/lifestyle/etc. and keeping a close non-roommate friendship with Katie. I have learned that not all good friends make good roommates, but if you find yourself in that situation, it can be best to tough it out until the lease is up and part on good terms rather than destroying what would otherwise be an amazing friendship.
posted by rainbowbrite at 12:12 PM on September 22, 2014 [4 favorites]
That said, since you mentioned that you and Katie found this apartment together, I'm curious whether you consider each other to be friends or just roommates. In the "just roommates" situation, I think my response would be to the effect of "I feel like I'm following the guest policy that you followed when you were dating frequently, and furthermore I'm not violating the lease. It seems like what you really want is for me to be out of the house more often, but because I am paying rent and am on the lease, that will not be possible. While I'm sympathetic to the fact that you might be happier living alone, I'm not really willing to commit to leaving my apartment overnight on a regular basis while still paying full rent." Then it's on her to make you an offer -- if she can offer you something YOU want (lower rent, curbing a non-lease-violating-but-annoying habit she has, offering to take out the trash every week, etc.) you can make a trade. But beyond that, you're well within both "common sense" guest policies and every lease I have ever been on (most have had an overnight guest limit, but it was well above 3-4 nights per month).
On the other hand, if you consider Katie a friend and you consider this a friendship worth preserving, I think it makes sense to be more flexible. In that case, try to think of it NOT as an unreasonable concession you're making to a roommate, but rather a gift you are giving to a friend who is going through a stressful time. I have had friend-roomies for whom I've done all sorts of things I would never do for someone I didn't have that closer relationship with, and I did it because I cared about them as a person and wanted to make sure we continued having a relationship/friendship after we were no longer roomies. (Earlier in life, I took the opposite approach and lost a close friend that I didn't mesh well with as a roomie. I definitely wish I could have been more patient/giving and taken the longer perspective that we were roommates for 9 months but could have been friends for much longer. Of course, that is hard when you are 19!)
If this is a friendship you want to keep, give the gift of some nights alone at the apartment generously and freely, and then when the lease is up in however many months, consider finding a new roommate who meshes better with your needs/lifestyle/etc. and keeping a close non-roommate friendship with Katie. I have learned that not all good friends make good roommates, but if you find yourself in that situation, it can be best to tough it out until the lease is up and part on good terms rather than destroying what would otherwise be an amazing friendship.
posted by rainbowbrite at 12:12 PM on September 22, 2014 [4 favorites]
Her request is a completely unreasonable. If a once or twice per week overnight guest was unacceptable, that should have been discussed before you moved in together.
posted by hworth at 1:41 PM on September 22, 2014
posted by hworth at 1:41 PM on September 22, 2014
I suppose it's just a matter of opinion, but I'd probably just tell her "listen, I think that having a significant other stay over once per week is completely reasonable. However, I also don't want this to be a source of conflict and stress because it's not worth it. So, for now, we'll do two nights per month at her place and two nights here. We can readdress this in a few months."
I mean, it's 9 months til the end of the academic year (when presumably Katie will be gone for good), and you're fighting over whether you're going to spend 3 nights per month at your place with Lauren, or 2, right? I definitely get the idea of just being like 'hey, we're going to stay here every week because it's nicer' on principle, but the idea of living with someone who's angry at you is pretty stressful to me and I'd definitely be willing to stay in a place with a smaller TV and bed one night per month for a few months if that was the solution.
posted by treehorn+bunny at 4:11 PM on September 22, 2014 [2 favorites]
I mean, it's 9 months til the end of the academic year (when presumably Katie will be gone for good), and you're fighting over whether you're going to spend 3 nights per month at your place with Lauren, or 2, right? I definitely get the idea of just being like 'hey, we're going to stay here every week because it's nicer' on principle, but the idea of living with someone who's angry at you is pretty stressful to me and I'd definitely be willing to stay in a place with a smaller TV and bed one night per month for a few months if that was the solution.
posted by treehorn+bunny at 4:11 PM on September 22, 2014 [2 favorites]
I think there are three possible interpretations of this situation:
1) Katie is frustrated that you are always home when she's home and Lauren's overnight stays were the straw that broke the camel's back (I know you mention that you work late and go out but it's unclear how much your schedule overlaps with hers). I agree with others who have mentioned that it can be a drag when you never have the apartment to yourself and that being alone in the apartment is significantly different than your roommate being home but out of sight. Plus, unless you both never cook or use the living room you are probably minimizing how much mutual space you are sharing on a day to day basis.
2) Katie is stressed out over something else and it got her disproportionally upset over what is a relatively minor issue. Maybe she's irritated with you over something else related to the situation, like you're not actually being as quiet as you think you are during sexy times or something. Maybe it's something completely unrelated and it set her on edge so that the weekly overnights became a bigger thing that it otherwise would have.
3) Katie is being completely unreasonable, because she has ample occasions to have the apartment to herself for long stretches of time. Taken on face value, her expectation that you should be out of the apartment overnight on a regular basis is more than a little ridiculous.
Either way, I would avoid the uncomfortable stress that comes with a roommate cold war and make some concessions; either stay at Lauren's more frequently or just be out of the house more often in general. Taking a step back to consider where she's coming from with this will help inform how you address the issue in the short term and what you want to do housing-wise in the long term.
posted by fox problems at 5:31 PM on September 22, 2014 [1 favorite]
1) Katie is frustrated that you are always home when she's home and Lauren's overnight stays were the straw that broke the camel's back (I know you mention that you work late and go out but it's unclear how much your schedule overlaps with hers). I agree with others who have mentioned that it can be a drag when you never have the apartment to yourself and that being alone in the apartment is significantly different than your roommate being home but out of sight. Plus, unless you both never cook or use the living room you are probably minimizing how much mutual space you are sharing on a day to day basis.
2) Katie is stressed out over something else and it got her disproportionally upset over what is a relatively minor issue. Maybe she's irritated with you over something else related to the situation, like you're not actually being as quiet as you think you are during sexy times or something. Maybe it's something completely unrelated and it set her on edge so that the weekly overnights became a bigger thing that it otherwise would have.
3) Katie is being completely unreasonable, because she has ample occasions to have the apartment to herself for long stretches of time. Taken on face value, her expectation that you should be out of the apartment overnight on a regular basis is more than a little ridiculous.
Either way, I would avoid the uncomfortable stress that comes with a roommate cold war and make some concessions; either stay at Lauren's more frequently or just be out of the house more often in general. Taking a step back to consider where she's coming from with this will help inform how you address the issue in the short term and what you want to do housing-wise in the long term.
posted by fox problems at 5:31 PM on September 22, 2014 [1 favorite]
Yeah, I should add that I'm nearly ten years married and I regularly -- as in about once a week -- ask my husband to leave for the day so I can have the place to myself. So it's not about disliking you as a roommate or not knowing the SO or what have you. It's really, truly, just about needing to be alone.
posted by holborne at 7:38 PM on September 23, 2014
posted by holborne at 7:38 PM on September 23, 2014
2nding Holborne. I am also 10 years married to someone I really love hanging out with, and yet I practically shove him out the door every Friday so I can have the house to myself.
posted by DarlingBri at 7:22 AM on September 24, 2014 [1 favorite]
posted by DarlingBri at 7:22 AM on September 24, 2014 [1 favorite]
This thread is closed to new comments.
Personally, I'd be having a mild nervous breakdown if it were a relative small space and you kept having your girlfriend over, you never went to your girlfriend's place, you never went ANYWHERE and I was in the last, stressful stage of my degree.
posted by kariebookish at 3:36 AM on September 22, 2014 [11 favorites]